Air Force OSI Agent Now Serving 30 Years | The Robert Condon Story - S.O.S. #234

Good evening everyone and welcome back to the stories of service podcast and tonight I have a very very special guest and I am starting a little early as my husband just reminded me in the comments

but the reason I'm doing so is to talk about the fact that this is going to be a very difficult subject and if any of

you are triggered by talk of any type of sexual crime accusation or anything along those lines I want to give you the opportunity to prepare yourself. I want

you to listen and I want you to come at this with an open mind and an open heart, but I also want you to know that there's going to be some difficult subjects that we're going to discuss

tonight. But as you all know on the

tonight. But as you all know on the Stories of Service podcast, I intend to tell the truth and I do my best to show you a story even if that story is

difficult to tell. And tonight I have another one of those difficult stories to tell. Holly Jagger, how are you doing

to tell. Holly Jagger, how are you doing today?

>> I'm doing fine, thank you. Thank you for having me.

>> Well, thank you so much for agreeing to do this. I did postpone this show. I was

do this. I did postpone this show. I was

going through a little bit of difficulties myself. Uh those of you who

difficulties myself. Uh those of you who follow me online know what I'm talking about and I wanted to make sure that it was the right time to tell this story and I believe it is the right time. But

before we get started, as we always do, welcome to I believe this is probably episode 235 236 of the Stories of Service Podcast. Ordinary people who do

Service Podcast. Ordinary people who do extraordinary work. I'm the host,

extraordinary work. I'm the host, Terresa Carpenter. And as we always do

Terresa Carpenter. And as we always do to get these shows started, I'll do an intro from my father, Charlie Pickard.

>> From the moment we're born and lock eyes with our parents, [music] we are inspiring others. By showing up as a

inspiring others. By showing up as a vessel of service, we not only help others, we help [music] ourselves.

Welcome to SOS, Stories of Service, hosted by Terresa Carpenter. hear from

ordinary people from all walks of life who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work.

>> And what makes this story, because I have covered other stories of what I believe are are false allegations, is a dual perspective of a mother fighting for her son and that of a seasoned law

enforcement professional. Holly spent 30

enforcement professional. Holly spent 30 years with the toledo police department.

The first 10 years she worked in a clerical role. that in 1985 she attended

clerical role. that in 1985 she attended the police academy and spent the next 20 years serving as a uniform street patrol officer and the experience that she'll talk about today I believe gives her a

unique lens on investigations evidence and the importance of justice done right and today we're going to talk about the painful journey of watching her son a former Air Force OSI agent Robert Condan

go from a decorated investigator to a man serving 30 years in military prison in 2014 Robert was court marshaled and convicted on multiple charges charges, including sexual assault, stalking, and

obstruction of justice. To the Air Force, his case was a sign that the system works. But to Holly and many

system works. But to Holly and many others, drawing on her experience of law enforcement experience, it is proof of something far more troubling. How

coercion, flawed investigations, and unchecked power can destroy lives. And

today, we're going to talk about that in more detail. Holly, how you doing?

more detail. Holly, how you doing?

>> I'm doing good, thank you. So, first

off, I want to talk about a little bit about Robert's backstory. Uh, where was Robert uh born and raised and tell me a little bit about what he was like as a child.

>> Okay. Um, he's my oldest child, my only son. Uh, he was born in 1984 in Toledo,

son. Uh, he was born in 1984 in Toledo, Ohio. He had a very energetic

Ohio. He had a very energetic personality. He loved all superheroes.

personality. He loved all superheroes.

And because it's Halloween uh tomorrow, I was thinking about all the things that he was. I have pictures of him as

he was. I have pictures of him as Ghostbuster, Ninja Turtle, Superman, Zoro, and even Fox Moulder from the X Files. He always he's dressed as a

Files. He always he's dressed as a military guy in one of the one of the Halloween pictures. He always um wanted

Halloween pictures. He always um wanted to be a superhero. His father was a Green Beret during Vietnam and he looked up to him. his great-grandfather on on

the Condan side lost a lower part of a leg at the Battle of the Bulge during uh World War II. So, he had grown up with those examples. My father served in

those examples. My father served in Korea, those examples, and he wanted to live up to those examples. There was no choice. It's not my mother's choice for

choice. It's not my mother's choice for her son to join the military, but there was no way that you were going to stop my son from joining [clears throat] the military.

>> Right. So, he joined the Air Force. Was

he originally an OSI agent when he joined or what did he join as?

>> He wanted to become a par rescueman but he was not very good at the swimming. So

when he washed out of that attempted training he went instead into security forces. Both his mother and father were

forces. Both his mother and father were law enforcement and so I think that was a natural fit.

>> He started at Nellis um and then later said he wanted to consider OSI. I

encouraged that. Um during the time that he was in, he went in in uh April of 2003.

He deployed six times. During his time up to 2013 when the accusation was made, he had got his associates and bachelor's degree in criminal justice. He attended

uh the law enforcement, the federal law enforcement training center in Georgia, became a flexi it's called, and became a federal agent. And

that's when he was became OSI.

>> Gotcha. And tonight we also have a couple people who are joining who have also talked to you. Uh Rich Lmonica says hello Holly and Teresa. So I'm not the first person to bring Holly's story. It

was Rich uh who did it first before me I believe. Is that correct?

believe. Is that correct?

>> Yes.

>> Yes. And his story and him showing your story and so bravely speaking up about this was also a big inspiration for myself. So, also wanted to share a

myself. So, also wanted to share a little bit about Robert. That is Robert right there. Tell us a little bit about

right there. Tell us a little bit about when that picture was taken.

>> Um, and he was home. Um, he was always very proud of his uniform. Um, I think that was at church that day >> that picture was taken. You can see all

the decorations. Uh, he's a decorated

the decorations. Uh, he's a decorated combat veteran. He served in

combat veteran. He served in Afghanistan, Iraq. He's been to Africa a

Afghanistan, Iraq. He's been to Africa a couple times, Jordan. Um he his first uh his first deployment was to hurricane Katrina to help the survivors there and

he he was very emotionally touched by that seeing our own people helping our own people.

>> Yeah. And for the listening audience I'm just showing uh three images uh that we have of Robert. Uh the first image was him in his dress uniform. The second

image uh looks to be more in a in a combat zone and also as well as with this one here. I'll take this one down and and share this one. This is probably the best picture because you kind of see him out with some of the local

population. Was this in Afghanistan?

population. Was this in Afghanistan?

>> This was in Afghanistan and by this time he is an OSI special agent >> and he um excelled at that uh in Afghanistan and counterintelligence

work. I have a handwritten note from the

work. I have a handwritten note from the head general of the Air Force um Mark Welsh at that time thanking Andy's

commander for his his uh help during his visit. He it was very complimentary to

visit. He it was very complimentary to have a handwritten note um from the head general of the Air Force um complimenting on your son.

>> Um yeah, he excelled at that. They got

several awards. Um he was and on his commendation that they had credit him with the capture of 78 Taliban fighters.

Um I think 11 new insurgents came to mind. They uncovered um several places

mind. They uncovered um several places that they were hiding. Uh all that was his work. And I asked him if that was

his work. And I asked him if that was the whole total unit and he said no everybody's combination had different numbers on it. They this was in particular his work that captured that

78 >> Telman fighters.

>> Wow. That that's pretty significant.

>> Yeah. Things we didn't even know. He he

really he really did excel at counter intelligence work.

>> And what's really interesting too is not only did Robert go into law enforcement and have that background, he had a mother who was in the law enforcement uh

community. So tell me a little bit about

community. So tell me a little bit about how that has shaped your perspective of of of what you've seen happen to your son.

>> Well, it it's unbelievable because the difference between um civilian law enforcement and what I saw happen to my

son is so bizarre. Um when they placed him under arrest, they shipped him five hours away from his home. That would be like if we arrested somebody in Toledo and we shipped them to Cincinnati.

That's just not done. any lawyer that you know locally is that's who you want to hire. Somebody that you know locally.

to hire. Somebody that you know locally.

They shipped him away from everybody he knew. We hired him an attorney in

knew. We hired him an attorney in Jacksonville Brig. Jacksonville Naval

Jacksonville Brig. Jacksonville Naval Brig is where they put him.

>> We hired a a man that had been in the Navy, a JAG, a commander, and had that experience but was now in civilian law.

And as soon as we did that, then they shipped him the next court, the second next court appearance. Then they put him five hours away from that attorney. Then

my son is would be able to help in his own case, but not if you completely separate him g um repeatedly and geographically away from his attorneys.

He never went back to Jacksonville. Then

then they kept him in a civilian uh facility called Santa Rosa County Jail.

um which made it very difficult for him and and the lieutenant colonel in charge of the law office said it's um Santa Rosa makes it very difficult for

attorneys to have conversations with their with the inmates. She knew that going into trial made it more difficult for him. Um they also have been accused

for him. Um they also have been accused of starving prisoners during that time.

My son lost 40 pounds in weight. He was

there about 60, no 79 days before the next trial date was set. And then they moved him to uh Joint Base Charleston.

So that's, you know, like moved him four four times back and forth four times and always away from his attorneys. And the

point that I'm making is that these are just some of the due process violations that we'll get into or or what we allege are due process violations uh that

Robert dealt with that would not necessarily be the case on the civilian side. And in the civilian side, from

side. And in the civilian side, from what we can tell, does afford protections that unfortunately the military, the people who are defending our country are are not afforded those

same uh due process protections. And do

want to also give a shout out to Arvis Owens. Uh Arvis has been a a wonderful

Owens. Uh Arvis has been a a wonderful advocate who connected uh myself with you, Holly, and has connected me with a lot of the other uh advocates and other

uh people who are what I would call survivors of false allegations. So I

really do appreciate all the work that Arvis has done to to bring people together. But take me back to what

together. But take me back to what happened in 2013. The first time that you heard about these allegations and what what what started this what what

kicked off this incident.

When I tell the story uh recently my friend said goes back go back to the spring of 2013. In the spring of 2013 he had come back from an deployment. his

command um met with him and told him that in order to make himself more promotable, he needed to stop deploying so often and he needed to stay um in

country and work on criminal cases. So

he went out to do that and in the next couple weeks he uncovered nine airmen on the base at Herbert Field dealing drugs to other airmen on the base at Herbert

Field. He and his partner who ends up

Field. He and his partner who ends up later being accuser A stated um uh they were working on the case together. She

and he were working on the cases together. Then they became immediately

together. Then they became immediately the command became immediately upset and they deployed him again to Africa and they sent her to Flexi for the advanced

course on sexual assault investigation.

>> Sorry to interrupt but when you say upset, what do you mean?

You know, they said don't deploy and then immediately when he has these nine drug arrests, now they're all in a tizzy

about that and they deploy him. Now,

>> what do they want? Which do they want?

And my son had not done a lot of criminal cases because he was always working with counter intelligence. So he

um needed some help with paperwork and he kept requesting help with the paperwork and he was relying on the the accuser a that later becomes the accuser her help because she was working

criminal cases all the time. She hadn't

deployed but they shipped her away and then he's just left floundering trying to get his paperwork done with this deployment over his head in June.

>> Gotcha.

>> Okay. So, um, accuser A comes back from her deployment or her, uh, TDY, right?

TDY, they call that training.

>> Yes.

>> And, um, she gives him a card, um, trying to make amends because they had basically been dating and split them up this way by moving her her to training

and him deployed.

um a a little letter. It had a coded message in it and and all these crazy little little sentences and in each sentence was a large letter and then he

was supposed to put all the large letters together and figure out what the code was. Okay? He had no patience with

code was. Okay? He had no patience with that. [laughter]

that. [laughter] So when I got that letter, I decoded it and it said, "Take care. I want you

back." Okay. So he goes to Africa. while

back." Okay. So he goes to Africa. while

he's in Africa. He had put a ad online Craigslist. Craigslist.

Craigslist. Craigslist.

>> Now, not something a mother really wants to know about Craigslist.

>> And basically, he's talking about um the men seeking women and what kind of things he's into. And accuser M answers

his ad and she explains that she has participated in this kind of behavior before, this kind of sexual interest before. Mhm.

before. Mhm.

>> and wants to meet him, but he is in Africa. So they she

Africa. So they she >> And by the way, this is a very normalized process. I I will I would say

normalized process. I I will I would say the acronyms. I know people will know what I'm talking about, but if you've ever read that book and and Arvis or somebody, what's the book called? The

>> 50 Shades of Gray.

>> Fifty Shades of Gray. It is

>> It romances >> it romances it and it glamorizes it.

>> Yes. to to a lot of people >> and a lot of women that read the book, they're intrigued because they romanticize it.

>> They romanticize about this particular practice and this was something that he he mentioned he was into this. She

responded back, "Oh yes, BDSM. I'll just

say what it is." And then the next thing, you know, they are meeting up and and talking, correct? Or not meeting up, but texting. Texting back and forth.

but texting. Texting back and forth.

>> They are texting back and forth. calls

in Texas back and forth for >> geez I think it's 5 53 days back and forth while he's in Africa >> he returns home on the 9th of August

they hook up immediately on 10th of August >> on the 11th of August my mother passes >> and on the 13th he comes home for a funeral on the 20th he goes back and

they continue seeing each other sleeping together experimenting with all these things um for the next few weeks weeks.

Okay. But he is not being monogamous at this point. He continues to date other

this point. He continues to date other women. And so he he has uh should we go

women. And so he he has uh should we go into how that next one happened? So

accuser A who had been his partner and his girlfriend in the past. Um

>> right. The fellow the fellow agent fellow >> fellow agent. They see each other at the bar. It's a bar that he goes to that she

bar. It's a bar that he goes to that she doesn't normally go to, but she's there with friends. And that particular night,

with friends. And that particular night, she's celebrating with her roommate um who just got a new job, and they're all supposed to go to the roommate's

fiance's house to spend the night. She

and my son flirt back and forth all evening long. And um he even has takes a

evening long. And um he even has takes a picture of her smiling at him right before she leaves. She tells the her roommate that she wants to sleep in her own bed. She wants to go home and sleep

own bed. She wants to go home and sleep in her own bed and she gets the her and the fiance to take her back to her own place. Um what is really interesting

place. Um what is really interesting [clears throat] at article 32 um the agent A says that she went into

the house herself. The roommate says we had to carry her in. She was so drunk.

The fiance says the girls went in and I stay in the car. So you see nobody's telling who the whole story. Okay. Yeah.

All right. So, as soon as she is in her in her town or her apartment by herself, and she knows her roommates are gone for the whole night, she immediately starts texting my son to come over. He knows

they both have been drinking. They're

agents. And he says to her, "Are you sure?" Okay, now he's crazy. He's crazy

sure?" Okay, now he's crazy. He's crazy

about this girl. When they broke up in April, he was very sad. Okay, very

upset. But he says, "Are you sure? Why

don't we wait and do this right? We've

both been drinking.

>> I don't want a of tomorrow to be upset at this decision tonight. She is she texts and calls him six times and those phone records I do have six times in

five minutes. And she tells him, "If you

five minutes. And she tells him, "If you don't want to come, I'll call somebody else." Well, he says, "If you're sure."

else." Well, he says, "If you're sure."

So, he goes to her house like 45 minutes later, knocks at the door. She lets him in. She's wearing her pajamas. There's

in. She's wearing her pajamas. There's

not a movie on. We haven't set up the scrabble board. We know why we're here.

scrabble board. We know why we're here.

Okay. So, they sleep together. In the

middle of the night, he texts her and said, "I have to leave. I don't have any Claridin with me." And she is a cat and he's allergic.

>> Mhm.

>> The prosecution makes it she's passed out. That's why he textes. He textes

out. That's why he textes. He textes

because she's sleeping. And he textes and says, "I'm really sorry. I had to leave." Wilfford, that's cat's name, is

leave." Wilfford, that's cat's name, is making my allergies crazy. I'll see you tomorrow night when I take you out to dinner. Okay. And he leaves.

dinner. Okay. And he leaves.

All right. She wakes up about 4:00 in the morning. And she is furious that he

the morning. And she is furious that he left. Way to make a girl feels what she

left. Way to make a girl feels what she says on a text on a text.

>> And he It's not romantic that he left.

She wanted him to spend the whole night, but he couldn't because of the cat.

Believe me, he'd want to spend the whole night cuz he was crazy about a but he left and she was angry. And so they go back and forth and he he explains to her

but she's not really having it. She asks

for a plan B pill. Okay. He says he'll get her one. She and she does what? She

invites somebody else over. She invites

another agent over that she had also been flirting with. They had not been together, but I believe she used that to try to make my son jealous.

>> Okay. So, she does call somebody else.

>> Um, our our one attorney did ask him when he was on the stand and stuff, she did ask him privately, "Were you hoping for a romantic relationship with a" and he said, "Yes, he was."

>> Sure.

>> So, yeah. So, um, about four days later on the 3rd of September, >> what happened with the plan B?

>> She he brought it later on that day.

They >> Okay.

>> They talked and everything was fine.

They were going out for dinner. Um, they

still had a list of things that they called their bucket list. They were

planning later in the month or maybe in the summer to no, later in the year to go to Six Flags together. Okay. They had

been to uh they had spent a weekend in St.

Augustine. They had spent a weekend um at Mardigra. You know, this was a

at Mardigra. You know, this was a romantic relationship. Um it wasn't a

romantic relationship. Um it wasn't a one night stand. It wasn't uh a sexual assault. It it could have been uh

assault. It it could have been uh confusion about whether that's what she really wanted, maybe. But every time that they had spent the night together

before that, they had had sex. So

>> they there was at that time part of the code that they said mistake of mistake of understanding could mistake of understanding I don't think so like I

said she she answered the door in her pajamas you know >> right and there were text messages and after >> and the next day she he says you asked

me >> to the explo of this not Nice. That's

what F. You asked me to f you.

>> She said yes, but you should have known I meant that I meant no. Come on.

>> How is he supposed to think you mean no?

You just asked him. That's in the text messages. Okay. So,

messages. Okay. So,

so they they make up. They're going to continue to go out on the se September 3rd.

Um, accuser M. This is the only accuser that comes forward on her own to make a complaint against my son. That's

>> This is the one from Craigslist, >> right? This is the one from Craigslist.

>> right? This is the one from Craigslist.

She comes to his house. She is angry with him because she saw that his ad was back on Craigslist.

She stated she thought this was a relationship. She could have gotten back

relationship. She could have gotten back with her ex-boyfriend.

He has noticed really strange things about her. one, he says he continued to

about her. one, he says he continued to date other people and he didn't intend to really stop seeing other people. He

um did not want a serious relationship because he planned on getting out of the service and coming home.

>> Um he uh found her sitting down. So his

driveway, he lives in a townhouse and the townhouse um like say goes east to west and just to the north of the town houses is the driveway. He lives all the way down to

driveway. He lives all the way down to the very end on the water. This this

driveway is like a hundred feet long at least. Okay. He'd find her sitting in

least. Okay. He'd find her sitting in that driveway 20 30 feet from his townhouse watching it in the middle of the night. You know, that's strange

the night. You know, that's strange behavior for somebody who's known like only you communicated with two months and you've only known like a total of three months. That's

three months. That's >> you know what I mean?

and he said it just wouldn't work because he had friends that were friends that were girls. He didn't want >> he he just said this was this is not working out >> right.

>> So, um they get into an argument. She's

hysterical. He says there we're just going to break up. That's just how it is. It's over. She's hysterical and

is. It's over. She's hysterical and crying. He says to her, "Look, I don't

crying. He says to her, "Look, I don't want you driving. If you're this upset, if you want to spend the night here, that's fine, but I'm going to bed." and

he goes upstairs and gets in bed alone, okay, and to watch a show. And later on, she comes up, gets all her clothes off, gets into bed with them. She puts her

shoulder, her head on his shoulder and her arm or her shoulder underneath his armpit and um like goes to sleep. But

the whole we think at this time she was trying to get his DNA but she tries to initiate um sexual intercourse and he's he refuses because the relationship is

over. Okay.

over. Okay.

>> Right. He's got he's got red flags. It

sounds like he has red flags.

>> Yeah. He doesn't want her to drive and I don't think he expected her to really come upstairs but she did. And so during the evening um she decides to go home.

She gets dressed. He walks you to the door to make sure he says call me when you get to the dorm to make sure you're okay and you get there safe. Um and then

um the next day I was safe. So from

there she goes um back to her dorms um but never goes in. She calls a friend that she we find out later she was arrested with prior. She goes from there

to the St. um no to Fort Walton Beach which is a civilian hospital. She wants

to make um a sex assault report. She

asked them what they'll do. They tell

her that they will file charge. They

will call the police will file charges immediately and that he would probably be arrested today. She's not sure she wants that. So, she leaves there and she

wants that. So, she leaves there and she goes to the to the military hospital.

>> Right. And this is important to know, too, because M is not only a girl that he was dating. My understanding is she was also active duty in the military.

Correct. active duty Air Force. She was

training to become an air traffic controller.

>> Um she's having some trouble with her studies. Okay. And she joined the

studies. Okay. And she joined the military hiding a felony conviction from her prior life which she did not disclose before she joined. My son told

me that we're taking anybody with uh criminal history of any kind. It should

uh civilian my understanding is the civilian air traffic controllers as well as military air traffic controllers can have no criminal record at all >> um for those positions. So she leaves

there. She has the same nurse do the

there. She has the same nurse do the report and she makes it restricted later that day.

>> Yeah. And a restricted report for people who don't know I'm sorry to keep interrupting. I just want to make sure

interrupting. I just want to make sure that the story is so super clear. or

unrestricted >> or unrestricted restricted >> restricted they take all the evidence the DNA all that kind of thing and they save it but no investigation starts

unrestricted it and they they call in OSI okay she makes it restricted until later on that day when she doesn't show up from work probably because she's

exhausted from all this stuff all night long she was doing so she doesn't show up and her command's upset with her and then she states that she was sexually

assaulted and she makes it unrestricted and from there it just it just went crazy from there.

>> Right. So at this point you are only having M as the accuser.

>> Right. She is the only woman who came forward on her own and said she was sexually assaulted on her own and only because her commander challenged her for not showing up for work.

>> Okay.

>> So then what? So tell me about how the next few weeks play out.

>> Okay. From this point, >> my son is in OSI. He is working um in Herbertfield, Florida. So those agents

Herbertfield, Florida. So those agents cannot do his case. Now, of course, they have to have somebody interview her to begin with. So, they have an agent. Um I

begin with. So, they have an agent. Um I

think it was a major that was in my son's circle and another um regular agent

>> um come and do the initial report. They

note that she has two phones and they make a note to the agents that will come from Quantico to do this case that she has two phones and they should collect

both. They never did. They um look for

both. They never did. They um look for the same nurse questions. She said she has bruises. The same nurse can't find

has bruises. The same nurse can't find them. She uses um

them. She uses um >> which is a sexual assault nurse examiner just for people that want to know what a sane nurse is.

>> Sexual assault nurse examiner. She goes

through her whole body. She cannot find any signs of physical injury. and M had made an accusation of an extremely

violent sexual assault. Um, vaginal

rape, oral rape, um, being paddled, being bitten, um, being held up off her feet by her neck and choked till she thought her eyes would bug out, um, that

she was hit in the mouth and she could taste blood. All of these things, they

taste blood. All of these things, they swab her mouth, no blood. They find no choke marks on her neck. They find no bite marks on her shoulder. They find no

bruises anywhere. The agent, the female

bruises anywhere. The agent, the female agent that was one of the original ones asked her to move aside her uniform sleeves and and uh to look. She can't

find any bruises. Okay. No one can see them. The same nurse uses a wood slamp

them. The same nurse uses a wood slamp which actually highlights secretions and things in case there's something that a victim doesn't totally remember.

Nothing. The Quanico people finally come in and they call in a subdermal camera from Kuano to be delivered there to look below the layers of her skin on her

shoulder which she said he bit her and she was screaming in pain. They know the camera's working because they can see the different layers of the tattoo but

no injury, no trauma. Okay,

this and some statements that she kept changing and moving around. Um she

deleted messages from her phone before she gave it to OSI. She deleted them.

She changed her story. She kept adding more egregious things trying to make it sound worse.

>> She and and things that you wouldn't add later, you would have definitely remembered the first day. All these

things they should have known and perhaps they did by that time know about the felony conviction. They should have known that she wasn't telling the truth.

Any investigator, >> right? And that's that's the purpose of

>> right? And that's that's the purpose of exposing claim assault.

>> They might say, "He shoved me into the wall." And you might not see anything.

wall." And you might not see anything.

But all these things, choked, bitten, raped, all these things, >> nothing, you know, >> right?

>> You would never have an assault like that that you didn't have some sign as is like four hours later. That's it's

crazy.

So rather than letting it go and saying, "Okay, you're not telling the truth," which is what they would do that civilian people would do. And what they

probably did in the military before Congress got involved is they are going to double down. So they need to find

another accuser to bolster this case because it's so obvious that it's untrue. I

untrue. I >> So there wasn't enough evidence to support the case alone is what you're alleging. And because of that, they

alleging. And because of that, they wanted to find other cases that we have heard is is is usually standard practice. Now, of course, playing

practice. Now, of course, playing devil's advocate, you could say, well, there is this um allegation that they think is credible and they want to

ensure that this is a pattern or they want to show that this is a pattern. So,

they start digging into somebody's past to see where that to see if there really is a pattern of this behavior. So at

some on some level I can understand why they do that. But what also was in my view a red flag that I just want to make sure that we touch that we that we give it some some some attention is the fact

that she had that fraudulent enlistment.

So that already showed that this person had a propensy propensy to lie in a major way to to law enforcement. like

this was something that >> I mean [snorts] I know when I joined I wasn't lying about anything. I was

terrified like if I were to say anything uh they were going to they were going to find it. They were they were going to f

find it. They were they were going to f they were going to go through my past and they were going to find out what I did. And so that right there uh should

did. And so that right there uh should have been some indicator but as you said it it never we'll get into this later but it never came up. It was never uh

used in court and it was something that you only found out later after the court marshal which to me is completely unacceptable. But let's go back to where

unacceptable. But let's go back to where we were in the story where they start looking for other victims. >> Yeah. So the investigation begins on the

>> Yeah. So the investigation begins on the 4th of September and they are they are talking to his co-workers and then someone in the office says he I thought

he dated >> um A. And so they call in A and A is very she has just finished the advanced court

on sexual assault investigation. She is

very sensitive to women's issues because of course she's a woman herself.

>> She um she's horrified that they're making these accusations against a man that she's been dating for on and off for

almost a year. Um, and and I think I think that they made her feel and she stated it herself that she felt responsible for other women, that she

should have protected them, that somehow she should have seen this, like there wasn't any possible way that they, you know, that the girl was lying. Okay. Um,

>> yeah, they made her believe that this was a true al that this was a true allegation. And so in her mind, she

allegation. And so in her mind, she says, "I I gotta protect other women."

>> She felt responsible >> and I'm gonna come forward, >> other people. Yeah.

>> And and so she she they convinced her that she's a victim even though she repeatedly stated she did not think she was a victim. Okay.

Now, when she woke up and you know my and this is what they do. They take this consensual act that happened prior and they make it non-consensual for their

own purposes. Okay? So when she woke up,

own purposes. Okay? So when she woke up, she was angry that he left. No woman in her right mind has ever been angry that the rapist left. Okay? They wake up, the

rapist is gone. They're calling 911. She

didn't call law enforcement. She didn't

have a saying report made. She did not feel she was a victim. And two of those agents from Quantico made her into a victim. again for their own purposes.

victim. again for their own purposes.

She repeatedly stated that she did not think she was a victim, but she had this feeling that she was responsible for other women and they found some minor

misconduct, own personal misconduct on her part and offered immunity if she would cooperate as a victim in this case.

>> That is important. That is a very very important part of this case because I will tell you I am now in touch with another person who is a subject of false allegations not sexual but other kinds

of allegations and it's the same thing where they have dirt on somebody that they want to weaponize against this person and they investigators will

threaten that dirt against the person.

This is not uncommon. Not not uncommon at all. Darren Lopez is on the call and

at all. Darren Lopez is on the call and she said he says yes they do. Thank you.

Thank you, Miss Joerger.

>> Yes, >> we have seen this. We have seen this pattern play out where it's they say, "Well, we've got something on you and if you don't testify or you don't do this, well, I mean, I don't know how they word

it to the person, but that's pretty much." So, they offer her immunity and

much." So, they offer her immunity and she agrees to cooperate.

>> And that is in >> the middle of September, >> but they can't put him in pre-trial confinement, which is what they're

really wanting to do. Okay? Unless they

can find continuing behavior. And so,

they come and they find and and they have his phone. They're contacting every woman in his phone. They contacted like 150 people. They contacted the first

150 people. They contacted the first girl he dated in high school.

>> Okay. He's been in the service 10 years.

He's 29 years old and they're going back to high school. Okay. He called me, by the way, on the first day that she made this complaint. As soon as he knew he

this complaint. As soon as he knew he was being investigated, he called me.

So, and explained the situation. So,

they finally come against accuser Jay. And accuser Jay had been dagging

Jay. And accuser Jay had been dagging him on and off for two years.

And accuser Jay tells the officer, who comes by himself, by the way. Usually

they come in twos, so each one can say what the other one said. They're a

witness for each other. He comes by himself.

>> And by the way, Holly, you said that they contacted 150 people. I just want to make note of the fact that you've probably heard from some of these other people of the 150 and and and what they told and and the way that these

questioning would go down.

>> Tell me a little bit about that first before we get into M. Let's talk about what happened to the people that were like, "No, nothing happened." How did they say that the investigators treated them?

>> You get what I'm saying?

>> His his best friend is uh Joe. He calls

her Joe. And I didn't even know it was a woman. Her name is Sarah Joe. And they

woman. Her name is Sarah Joe. And they

contacted her. Two women agents came to her house.

>> Her husband was C in the Army. Andy was

OSI in the Air Force. So they were friends. They had actually we were going

friends. They had actually we were going to go on our next deployment in the same area at the same time, but he was best friends. He calls Sarah Joe his best

friends. He calls Sarah Joe his best friend.

>> Okay.

>> And they contacted her. They came to her house. Her husband was deployed. They

house. Her husband was deployed. They

asked her if there had ever been any sexual assault between her and Rob.

That's how they my son's name is Robert Andrew. Okay. So Rob, she says no. She

Andrew. Okay. So Rob, she says no. She

explains that they're just friends. Um,

she was so cautious about this appearance of impropriety that even when uh Andy went to her house, they would go outside and sit on the patio because she

didn't even want her neighbors to think that there was ever anything going on.

So, she she states there was never anything but a platonic [clears throat] relationship between me and Rob. She

states that repeatedly. They said, "What if we told you that we have you romantically skyping with him?" um a a romantic Skype between you and him on

well on Skype. She says, "I would tell you I've never Skyped with Rob ever."

Ever. And you have me mistaken with somebody else. And then they said, "What

somebody else. And then they said, "What if we tell your husband that you're having an affair with Rob? What will he say?" Her husband's deployed. Can you

say?" Her husband's deployed. Can you

imagine the pressure? She said,

>> and in her mind, she's probably thinking to herself that these people can just make up text messages. These people can make up Skype chats. I would, oh my god, have I actually Skyped? She actually got her computer out to see for she if

forever reason she had ever Skyped with.

She said the only person crazy that they say things like that >> was her husband and her father.

>> So, >> so this just tells you the integrity. I

mean, I just want to put this out for the audience. Um, I just recently did an

the audience. Um, I just recently did an article on undue command influence. And

the one thing I did not cover down on is what to do with investigators. But uh I can tell you I I did an interview uh about a year ago, maybe year and a half

ago with Tim Parloratory and we went into detail about some of these tactics that the investigators use. Uh and and and I just I mean I have nothing to compare it to on the civilian side, but

this is just highly unprofessional.

Highly unprofessional to say things like that >> and for women to treat other women that way. That was two women. She said, "I

way. That was two women. She said, "I have told you repeatedly that we are just friends, that there's never been a sexual assault, and I know him to be a really good man, and I want you to leave my house." And then she called her

my house." And then she called her husband and told her exactly what she had been accused of, and he was furious because he had talked his wife into cooperating and at least allowing a interview.

>> I mean, that's victimizing. I mean,

right there, that's just that's just victimizing somebody. Um, and it just

victimizing somebody. Um, and it just pisses me off that they would even do that. And so that just tells you right

that. And so that just tells you right from the start that this is an investigation that is not about getting the truth. This is an investigation that

the truth. This is an investigation that is a witch hunt that is looking for victims. So let's go back to M and and Arvis did say too. Yeah. M's phone got lost uh as well I believe. Yes. So but

we'll get into that in a little bit. Um

but first off, so tell me a little bit about how M was brought into this investigation. This is the third.

investigation. This is the third.

>> So she's the one the only one that that filed on her own is M. Okay.

>> Oh, I'm sorry. Not not M. Um,

>> you're talking about J.

>> J. Talking about Jay. Let's go back to Jay.

>> Yeah. And and that's a good point that that Arvis is saying there. M's phone.

Um, she had two phones and they and the original agents that did the first interview that same night stated she had two phones and they should collect both.

They only collected one that she used five days. The one that she had done for

five days. The one that she had done for 53 days, she never turned over to OSI.

and they destroyed my son's phone. That

shows all those messages, her sending erotic pictures of herself, all the things she's asking him to do to her when he comes back to the country. All

those messages 50ome days are lost because that phone was destroyed while it was in the hands of the prosecution.

>> Okay?

>> And that's evidence that could have been used in his court marshal to help >> that's evidence that would have supported him. But they have seen that

supported him. But they have seen that evidence. They had seen it before. They

evidence. They had seen it before. They

put that phone into evidence. Then it

was found to be laying out on someone's desk. That's a broken chain of custody.

desk. That's a broken chain of custody.

It was still working when that same woman major put it back into evidence.

It was still working. She put it in a Faraday bag to protect it from being accessed remotely. Okay. And when it

accessed remotely. Okay. And when it came out the next time, it was broken.

and they decided the prosecution decided to do a chip off to get those message and that phone was destroyed and those messages were lost forever. Now, they

should be on M's phone on that phone that she hid from OSI, but they never collected the second phone. Despite the

fact that my son was saying, "Get her other phone." Despite the fact that that

other phone." Despite the fact that that original agent said there was a second phone, they didn't collect it because they've already seen those messages and they know if those messages come to

light, they cannot get a conviction for M. Okay? So, this is why they bring in a

M. Okay? So, this is why they bring in a to try to boost the credibility of M.

but they want to put him in pre-trial confinement. So, here comes Jay now. Jay

confinement. So, here comes Jay now. Jay

has been dating him for on and off for two years. She tells the agent who goes

two years. She tells the agent who goes alone with no witnesses.

That was a normal sex life. She was 100% willing every time that anytime she had uh he suggested some sex act that she wasn't into, she and rejected. He

respected that. Okay.

that and then and then he manages to convince her that she she's uh been a victim.

Okay. Despite her saying all this, he makes her into an accuser. So, she

agrees to do a statement and she meets him later that night, okay, at Starbucks to go over the statement, which is which I have right here. It's

>> And I want to I want to pause on something because there's going to be people who are watching this. just goes,

"How in the world can you convince somebody they're a victim?" But I will submit.

>> Okay, I'm going to just I'm going to just say probably told her she was dating several other women. Probably

told her that other women were claiming that he abused them on the particular night that be okay. He she spent the night with him before he deployed to

Africa. She drove him to the airport.

Africa. She drove him to the airport.

When he returned, he'd seen her around, but they hadn't been out.

He came across her.

What day did they Oh, he continued to see her um through September.

Um he she had moved while he was in Africa.

She had moved. So they see each other at the Red Door Saloon. She wants him to come over and spend the night. He says,

"I don't I don't know where." She leads the way to her house. He doesn't even know where she lives. She leads the way to her house. They go up to uh the bedroom. Now, she states that she wasn't

bedroom. Now, she states that she wasn't interested in having sex. Okay. Um and

that he convinced her to have sex. I

don't know what's >> what all the point that I was going to make, Holly, is that we don't have to look any further than all the people who are coerced into making false

confessions. So, so I'm just saying like

confessions. So, so I'm just saying like there's these investigators when you are repeatedly questioning someone, when you lead them with certain questions, people

can be swayed. They can be convinced to think things that are not true.

>> And I see this as a completely consensual situation this evening. Then

following morning, it was raining. He

was on his motorcycle. He said, "Let me take you to breakfast." She drove them to breakfast. They brought in the

to breakfast. They brought in the waitress from breakfast who was a who he knew because they were both Ohio State fans from Ohio and she came in and

testified they looked like a perfectly normal happy couple. Um Jay forgets what they did afterwards but he had said she said well she was dogsitting for

people that were on vacation. They drove

up to Niceville I think was the name of Florida so she could let those dogs out and feed them. Then she goes back to her place and he takes his motorcycle and

goes home. Okay? There was nothing

goes home. Okay? There was nothing unconsensual about it until that agent made it unconsensual. So now she says 100% willing every time he convinces her

that she is a victim. She becomes

accuser Jay.

>> And you have original statements of >> I have original statements and >> where she says she's not a victim.

>> Right. She types out a two-page statement. Okay.

statement. Okay.

>> To him and she meets him at Starbucks.

the detective that night. He reads

through it and when he reads through it, he says to her, "I'm sorry, what you describe here is not a crime."

He said, "So, this is her typewritten, second page of her typewritten statement."

statement." >> And he has her cross out where she says, "He convinced me to have sex." Okay?

Because convincing a woman is not a crime and has her change. You see, she crosses out and writes in what will make

it a crime. Now, now he's already changed her original words. 100%

willing. He's now changed her words. He

convinced me. And why did he do it? I

have this report that we did not have at the time, but my investigators found much, much later. And let me just read.

Agent P, I'll call him, also told me he located another victim. That's that's

accuser Jay, who was sexually battered by Condan, increasing the number to three.

He said, per the UCMJ, Condan can now be classified as a serial offender and arrested as such. Agent P

um said upon Condan's arrest he would be transported um to Charleston, South Carolina. So

he's changed her statement once, twice, and he's using it to make my son into a serial criminal for his own agenda.

Now, it should be noted and I want your viewers to know at trial at the article 32, she cried on the stand and said, "You don't understand. I'm in love with

Rob." Again, nobody's in love with a

Rob." Again, nobody's in love with a rapist. Two,

rapist. Two, at trial, he was found not guilty of all of the charges alleged by her. It was an

easy thing to do because if they had got her phone, you can see on the date afterwards, she states to her friend, she states through a text, "I made bad

blank decisions last night." And her friend said, "Rob decisions." And she said, "Yes, but it was a fun night anyway."

anyway." >> And this was Jay, correct?

>> This was Jay.

>> So So let's let's let's just I want to I want to make sure the audience is following this. The original accuser is

following this. The original accuser is M. The other two that get pulled in are

M. The other two that get pulled in are A and Jay, right? A has been threatened that they have dirt on her if she doesn't play along.

>> And then Jay has just said she's in love with him and had several statements stating that she was not a victim. So

the fact that you've now, in my view, in my belief, in my opinion, >> you have now victimized people by making them victims. >> Yes. because I would imagine that to

>> Yes. because I would imagine that to this day both of them still believe that they are victims. And that to me is also

a tragedy of this whole entire situation is that not only does it victimize the false allegation victim and all of the family like yourself, it now turns

people into thinking that they are now victims. >> Yes.

>> And that is just absolutely disgusting.

Absolutely criminal. Absolutely

absolutely criminal.

>> Criminal.

>> I I'm just I'm floored. I'm floored,

Holly. I'm floored. When I heard this story, I I couldn't believe it. And oh,

by the way, just in case you guys want more information on this story. Robert

has written a book. It's called The Invisible Casualty. It's not an easy

Invisible Casualty. It's not an easy book to read because he is an OSI special agent and he is very very

detailed in how he goes through line by line in this case and goes back to his record of trial and uses page numbers

and uses references to show all of the mistakes in the case. And that is another big piece of this in pre-trial harshly treated 71 days of solitary

confinement in a civilian facility. We

talked about that earlier. Charged with

starving prisoners. He lost 40 pounds.

Denied basic legal representation by the military. Intentionally and repeatedly

military. Intentionally and repeatedly geographically separating from his privately hired legal counsel. We talked

about that. Exorbitantly lengthy. Now,

this is where we're going to get into this because this is where he was charged. 344

charged. 344 days incarceration before trial, violating speedy trial rights. So, now

let's go back to that because now we're at this state. We're at this place where they have enough now to charge him because there's three accusers. And so

now tell me what happens next.

>> Okay. So they're still doing the investigation, but they ship him to um Jacksonville Military [clears throat] Naval Base J Breg. That's where they're

holding him. They're still doing the

holding him. They're still doing the investigation at this point. They don't

actually charge him with a crime for 120 days yet. Okay. But the convenient

days yet. Okay. But the convenient authority of the base goes in and demands that the nine drug cases be dismissed. And I believe this is the

dismissed. And I believe this is the reason why they needed to make um accuser a into a into a victim even against her will because she had already

brought to court marshall two of the nine while my son was in Africa and got convictions. If they don't take her down

convictions. If they don't take her down two, she can do all nine. Okay. But the

commanding authority of the base, he wants those drug cases dismissed.

>> And he wanted them dismissed because these people were part of an airman's council. If I remember right,

council. If I remember right, >> three of them, especially appointed, prestigious airmen's council. Those are

supposed to be future leaders of the Air Force, >> right?

>> Okay. They're young guys, but they're handpicked as future leaders.

>> So, he's he's going after people's people's prize children. And I will tell you that is very similar to the story that I did about Adam Dorito where Adam

Dorito was an OSI um secret agent. Like

they basically employed him to feed them information and Adam started seeing cases of sexual assault of football football players who were sexually

assaulting women and he tried to come forward with that to the agents and same thing happened. It was information that

thing happened. It was information that he had on these people. So they found a way in my view and in what he has told me to come after him. And that's what

they will do if you uncover something that they don't want people to see. So

that also in in your view and in in the belief of what you've seen on this case that that is a very real possibility for why they would come after him.

>> Why do they char why do they decide to dismiss these charges before my son's even charged with the crime? And if my son is found innocent at trial,

what does backlash does the commander get for dismissing nine drug cases? You

know, there's some questions there.

>> Just questions. Yeah, questions.

>> Just some questions. And and I'm not saying I can't prove that that's the the thing, but it's just something that happened and it snowballed and it's it's

like from those drug cases being found to the end and the 30-year sentence when the average given at that time was 3.39 years. Okay.

years. Okay.

>> So you you have to wonder.

>> You do. I would agree. So that so we've basically we've gone through all the pre-trial um issues and then the trial.

So let's let's kind of push forward.

>> All right. The next thing is article 32.

They charge him in late January. Article

32 happens in March.

>> Um all the uh all the accusers have to come in in a civilian court. He would

never allow an accuser or a witness to sit in the courtroom. All three accusers sat with their lawyers and their special victim advocates

>> and let's let's let's let's touch upon special victim advocates as well. So in

military law, not only do a military uh person get the benefit of the prosecution as the people who are charging the accused. So prosecution

team which is oh by the way now not connected to the convening authorities but back then was the convening authorities decided which cases went to

trial and which cases didn't uh when it came to this when it came to sexual assault during this period. Oh, by the way, this was also during a period of

very heightened attention by Congress, especially by people like Senator Gillibrand and when they had the documentary The Invisible War. So, this

was already a very heightened environment within the military around sexual assault convictions and a emphasis on ensuring that we were

getting tough on sexual assault. Rightly

so. Rightly so. But there was that type of pressure being put on commanding authority. So I just want to paint the

authority. So I just want to paint the picture of the time period this was. And

then oh by the way at this point the if you are an accuser you not only to have the benefit like I said of all the prosecution attorneys you now get a

special victim's advocate. So that is just more people to research your case, more people with legal expertise to

build a case. And if you are the accused, you get a defense attorney from the military who probably has hundreds and hundreds of other cases. I've heard

from some that you're not even guaranteed an investigator. And a lot of times, Holly, in your case and in the case of others, you're reliant on hiring private attorneys at your own expense.

Correct.

>> Yes. And investigators. Now, the first thing I was told when I came into town, my son had been arrested, is that OSI was impartial. That they would do the

was impartial. That they would do the investigation on both sides. That was

the biggest load of crap in [laughter] the whole thing because they certainly never tried to verify or not verify my son's story. They they certainly didn't.

son's story. They they certainly didn't.

So in article 32, all the ladies uh take the stand and I sat in there and took notes. And right after the article 32,

notes. And right after the article 32, uh, accuser A, the agent, changes her mind and she writes a three-page letter

to the convening authority stating she wants no part of this case. And I really would like to read some little portions of it. I can't read the whole three

of it. I can't read the whole three pages, but I'll read some portions of it. And then and it's basically like

it. And then and it's basically like this. From the very beginning, this was

this. From the very beginning, this was never an investigation that I wanted to be part of. First, I had a personal relationship with Sergeant Condan, and I

felt my participation would be betrayal to him. The confiscation of my phone

to him. The confiscation of my phone eliminated any remaining desire to participate in this case. Um, the agent

took my phone by force from my hand and began snapping photos of it. I told him multiple times that I was not comfortable with this and he

um made me uh he criticized me and said I should uh expect to forfeit my phone.

Um she said the agent asked if her phone was in her possession. um and presented the search and seizure warrant. She

later learned that the search and seizure what provided was not legal because it was made out for the wrong base. She felt uh the immunity argument

base. She felt uh the immunity argument was used as a tool to manipulate her into complying and testifying and held over her head at every turn. She does

not believe these tactics are ethical, nor do they uphold the values and integrity within our legal system. I

have tried to feel tolerate feelings mistreated because I thought I was doing the right thing. I am not so sure anymore. The government's actions have

anymore. The government's actions have left a much more significant impact on my life than anything between Tech

Sergeant Condan and I. and she says um uh she said I feel so mistreated by the government but because tech sergeant condon is someone I care about. So

that's just little portions of it. She

feels more mistreated by the government than anything that ever happened between her and Rob.

She Yeah. By that basically the the government is doing more to her than the alleged >> in this case basically destroyed her career. She left the Air Force after

career. She left the Air Force after this.

>> Wow. And and for my audience, as you see, we are we're at the top of the hour, but we're going to go over the hour because this is a a case that deserves that kind of time. So, I do

want to thank all of you for sticking around with us. So we get through the preliminary hearing and you realize that this is now going to keep on going from

that point. Correct.

that point. Correct.

>> Right. The the trial um speaky trial requires that if you have the person in custody, you must bring the the case to trial within 120 days. They are over by

about 30 days when it came to trial in May.

But the judge dismissed the case but allowed the the prosecution to refile and they added four more charges. They

weren't ready for trial. So they have to move the trial down the road to July.

When we come to court in July, they're not ready for court then either because the judge they haven't left enough the prosecution hasn't left enough time and the judge has to go to Guantanamo before

a case. So the case is moved to

a case. So the case is moved to September about the 14th or 15th before it started. Okay. So he's in custody at

it started. Okay. So he's in custody at this time 344 days before it comes to trial. So they violate speedy trial not

trial. So they violate speedy trial not once but twice. Okay.

>> Wow.

>> So he's convicted.

They sentence him to 30 years in prison which is completely outrageous. One of

the things that I want to say is when she wrote this letter, she's speaking her the truth. She had her advocate with her. She knew that they probably

her. She knew that they probably wouldn't be able to prosecute on her cases without her. That's what she wanted. Then at the end of trial, they

wanted. Then at the end of trial, they have what they call unsworn statements.

Okay? The victim

can make an unsworn statement. Now,

there were two of them because they only found him guilty of two M and A.

And they it's a unsworn statement. So,

you can say anything. It's unsworn. In a

court of law, they say all this stuff that happened that makes the jury believe that he's this horrible person.

This letter is what she said. She wanted

no part of this. She's being ordered to do it. even in her trial testimony

do it. even in her trial testimony and the beginning of her trial testimony they say to her >> and I also want to point out one of the

other conflicts is right here in in the in the phone issue. I just want to go back to it real quick. It says the family defense hired Global Compu Search as our electronic expert in November

2013. The government then hired the same

2013. The government then hired the same company, Global CompuSarch, but the boss of our expert. This

>> that's who destroyed the phone.

>> And that's a conflict of interest and simple evidence to support his innocent.

I mean, there was just I mean, it's just over and over and over again. I I

actually asked Holly to please put out an outline to me of all the due process violations pre-trial trial and sentencing. And I'm just looking. We've

sentencing. And I'm just looking. We've

already gone over everything in the pre in the pre-trial. I want to make sure we do everything in the trial, too. I mean,

there was just the evidence failed to collect her second phone. We talked

about that. The phone would have had the same information. A motion to get the

same information. A motion to get the phone was denied by the military judge.

The phone she turned over had only 5 days of text between them and she deleted seven of them showing romantic or sexual comments. I mean, it's just it

goes on and on about these different due process violations.

>> And Andy's Andy's books, he puts 31 pieces of potential sculpatory evidence unavailable at trial because SAP and SAS

did not collect them or they were destroyed by the investigator or the accusers.

28 pieces of esculpatory evidence were ignored by special agent P and special agent S and only collected by us or his

family.

>> And then SAP and SAS blatantly ignored the advice of OSI forensic scientist consultant and stopped consulting with her after she suggested the agents

collect key evidence. That is that original uh investigating officer when she started saying you need to get her second phone. They stopped talking to

second phone. They stopped talking to her.

>> Yeah. So, all right. So, we're at the point where now the trial happens. You

did not attend the trial is my understanding.

>> I was at the trial and they went they our lawyer came to us came to me and he told me the prosecution hates you. Okay. They

felt that I was helping my son evade justice obstruct justice. Never ever ever would

obstruct justice. Never ever ever would I do that.

Never ever when I was a law.

>> You're law enforcement.

>> All right. They hated me because during the article 32, I sat there and I took notes >> and I took a lot of notes and then they didn't want me in there to be able to

help my son and he and Mr. Our attorney, Mr. Roers, told me that he felt that it would go better for my son if I wasn't in there because the

prosecution disliked me so much. So,

they would weaponized it sit in during the trial. My father did, but my father

the trial. My father did, but my father is hard of hearing.

>> Okay. And so, he doesn't remember every single thing that you know because he can't hear every single thing. Um, that

was a mistake on my part. I should have absolutely insisted.

>> Absolutely insisted. I should have made them look at this mother and find her son guilty. 30 years,

son guilty. 30 years, but I believe it's those unsworn statements that helped convince the jury. Um, the bail did say that there

jury. Um, the bail did say that there was screaming [laughter] in the consultation room. Um, and I I you know, everybody's your superior.

Okay. And this is another case.

>> Oh, yeah. This is another case you had.

There's another case where it's different from civilians. In a civilian trial, nobody in the in the jury knows anyone. They don't know the officers.

anyone. They don't know the officers.

They don't know the suspect. They don't

know the victim. They don't know anybody. And if they do, they're

anybody. And if they do, they're dismissed. In this case, it's not only

dismissed. In this case, it's not only not a jury of your peers, it's a jury of your superiors. It's a small base. They

your superiors. It's a small base. They

know that Congress wants more sexual assault >> um >> convictions. convictions, right? And so

>> convictions. convictions, right? And so

it all their jobs, all their careers, all their retirements depend on making Congress happy. They also know the

Congress happy. They also know the convenient authority of the base wants a conviction. Okay? And they some of them

conviction. Okay? And they some of them work for him, directly work for him.

>> And as Arvis says, no unanimous jury. So

not everyone has to be in agreement. In

fact, if I remember correctly, an artist, you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I think it used to be like 65% that had to think it was a guilt, you

know, had to sway it. Now, it's I think three4s or they they've made it a little bit more that you need to have you to to vote one way or the other, but it's not

unanimous. So, it's just it's that also

unanimous. So, it's just it's that also isn't really giving people the the same due process protections because to get a unanimous verdict is obviously a lot

harder. But the military, I think,

harder. But the military, I think, probably wants to avoid a mistrial and so they make it easier to come to Yes.

Uh, thank you, Arvis. It used to be 2/3 uh that could So, that's only of 2/3 is only 66%. So, I was close. 66% have to

only 66%. So, I was close. 66% have to agree. Now 75% have to agree,

agree. Now 75% have to agree, >> but to me that's still absolutely unacceptable. It should be the same as

unacceptable. It should be the same as what it is in the military is. And that

is also in the article I wrote about undue command influence. Number one, the panels should be completely separate from one's chain of command. They should

be people that nobody knows. They should

be completely outside of any military circles of the accuser. And then number two, it needs the juries need to be unanimous.

Okay? So, they find Robert guilty. And

I'm sure you're shocked.

>> We are shocked. Now, three women in the courtroom cried. I was not one of them

courtroom cried. I was not one of them because I'm a cop and we don't cry until later. I had my breakdown about halfway

later. I had my breakdown about halfway through Georgia driving his car home.

The court reporter was a woman. She

cried.

Our female attorney cried.

And the young woman that had been guarding him, an OSI agent, for a week, she cried. She ran out of the room

she cried. She ran out of the room crying because I think that those people knew he wasn't guilty.

They knew that his life was going to be destroyed. The court reporter

destroyed. The court reporter has heard how many cases? How many

cases? She sat there and listened to all the evidence. She typed all the

the evidence. She typed all the evidence, you know, every single word.

Who would know better? and she cried. So

after the trial was over, I asked um a couple of Toledo policemen who were now retired and investigators to go over the case to do what they could to see if

there was anything else that we could fight at the appeal at during the appellet review or the calf review. They

found the criminal record. I do not believe that the Air Force was ever going to disclose that to us since the trial.

Um uh General stated to us that we had that criminal record one day before the posttrial clemency request went in. That was done

by his attorney, his female attorney, a Shalomar Addie. She completed it on 13

Shalomar Addie. She completed it on 13 of 15. Now, the attorney has requested

of 15. Now, the attorney has requested criminal background checks on a 10, 16, a 13, a year like a year and a quarter

before.

And this general is saying that we had it one day before post after the trial, not be after the trial. One day before

post-trial cle.

We never had it. Um, Chris Gil, who's my investigator, wrote an affidavit. I

wrote an affidavit that I hired him.

Andy wrote an affidavit that that we had never had the criminal record. And

Shalomar Addi wrote an affidavit that we did not have that criminal record ever.

All right. So, that's a Brady violation.

The other thing we found out is after and we weren't allowed to use that. We

weren't allowed to use it at the cast.

That's we found it before CF because it hadn't been used in the trial and it hadn't been used in the appeal. But it

would have made a difference because it would show that she already had a history of lying to the Air Force and she could have been lying to stay in the

Air Force. There was a time when if a

Air Force. There was a time when if a woman was in the military and she had some misconduct, if she had been a victim of sexual assault, her her

misdeeds could be forgiven as long as that man was thrown under the bus. And I

and so that's a possibility. That's a

possibility. Um, the other thing that we found out after all the appeals were final, I asked our attorney from DC, the appellet attorney, to send me all of the

records. He sent me all of the records

records. He sent me all of the records and a disc of the electronic file. So, I

printed it out and I had it sitting around in stacks of 100 around the living room. And then my son and I are

living room. And then my son and I are talking by phone. And as we're talking by phone, he keeps telling me this issue's on page such and such. And I

pull up my page such and such and it's not the same thing. And I had suggested that to one of his signed Air Force appallet attorneys. Was there two

appallet attorneys. Was there two different records of trial? Because

nobody could find the things that my son was telling his lawyers were issues.

They wanted to list them as gross define which are not taken seriously. Okay.

Every time if we have a dissenting opinion, if the other two judges had been able to to accurately find what our

attorney was highlighting as an issue, we could have had three dissenting opinions and my son would be home.

>> Exactly. Because the issue here is that all they had to go on was what is in the appeal. they couldn't go back to the

appeal. they couldn't go back to the record of trial and page by page see the full context of the allegation. So, it's

just like when you're writing a report and you have a reference, there are some people like me that are nerdy that want to go to the reference and then they want to see the full reference and they want to see the context of the

reference. So, the reference was the

reference. So, the reference was the record of trial. And so when you're putting in the when your lawyer is putting in the appeal, what page number of the record of trial, the particular

violation of the due process alleg violation allegation is, they should be able to go to the record of trial and see the full context in case they want to see what happened before that what happened after. And they're not able to

happened after. And they're not able to do that because they don't have the same page numbers, which is ridiculous to me.

And not only did they not have the same page numbers, Holly, as you told me in one of our earlier phone calls, they even had missing pages, >> the sealed record of the trial. There's

different versions of the trial that they seal.

>> And you to this day don't even and to this day, you don't even know what's on those sealed records.

>> No.

>> And there could be, what was the word? I

was excalatory. There could possibly be something in those 66 pages that are sealed >> that you don't have access to to properly fight for your son's freedom.

That just blows my mind that you don't get the full record of trial.

>> Yes. And so like like I say to up page to page 139, the records of trial are the same. On page 140, it says the next

the same. On page 140, it says the next 20 pages are in the sealed record. And so the next page number

is should be should be what 162 or something. Okay. 20 pages later.

something. Okay. 20 pages later.

>> Sure.

>> But in what our attorney got the next one is the next number 141 142 140. So

he can see on 140 the next 20 pages are supposed to be gone the sealed record but then then they're there. So he can assume that he has the entire record of

trial. He never even requests the sealed

trial. He never even requests the sealed record because he thinks he has it, >> right?

>> It's just it's it's absolutely blows my mind. And to this day, you still don't

mind. And to this day, you still don't have those records.

>> So, the prosecutor in charge of the case, one of the prosecutors, um, let's say prosecutor H, >> she is present when the phone is

destroyed. She is the one that talks to

destroyed. She is the one that talks to two extra people who weren't even allowed to be um victims and convinces them after one was interviewed five

times by different agents and said nothing ever occurred. But when when she comes to her, she makes her into an accuser. And the other one was was

accuser. And the other one was was interviewed by five different agents.

Everything was cool until they talk to her. So, she's convincing I don't know

her. So, she's convincing I don't know what she's saying and what she's doing, but no one's present. There's no notes and there's no recordings, >> right? And and again, this goes back to

>> right? And and again, this goes back to the hundreds of people that they contact. It's like

contact. It's like >> she is the person that's supposed to put the record of trial together and to make sure that it gets to everybody that it's supposed to get to. She's the person.

And that general that lied and said that we had that rec that criminal record on the 30th, her admin at that time is that

same prosecutor only up one now a major instead of a captain.

>> The part that upsets me about this and Arvis has even said it. I mean, how many years has he been in jail now?

>> He has been Okay, so I count all the time. Sure. He

was originally 10 10 or 13. So he has just passed 12 years in custody. He has

actually been at the USB, you know, 11 years, but he has been in custody away from his family, away from his life for 12 years. They arrested him

and he was 29. He turned 30 at the Naval Brig. He has spent every day of his 30s

Brig. He has spent every day of his 30s and the first two years of his 40s in prison.

You think I don't know you people out there who have gone through their 30s, you know, this is when you're marrying.

This is when you're settling into your career and making and and being serious about getting promotions. This is when having children. My son has missed all

having children. My son has missed all of that. All of that. And our family is

of that. All of that. And our family is truly devastated by it. It has consumed thousands, hundreds of thousands of

dollars and time. And every holiday there's a person missing.

He I can't even I can't even explain the grief it causes. My father um went with me 15 time nine times to Florida before

the trial. He's traveled with me during

the trial. He's traveled with me during the trial. He was he goes to he went to

the trial. He was he goes to he went to uh 12-hour drive out to Kansas multiple times. He is now 92 years old. He cannot

times. He is now 92 years old. He cannot

travel anymore and he has a hard time making peace with the fact that he is probably never going to see this grandson again. You know,

again. You know, >> this is this is absolutely unacceptable.

This upsets me. Every time I hear this story, I know it's upsetting to my audience as they're listening to this.

>> It's so many things they did. If he was guilty of accuser M, why was it necessary to do all this other stuff? Why was it

necessary to victimize these other women? Why was it necessary to destroy

women? Why was it necessary to destroy his phone? Why was it necessary to hide

his phone? Why was it necessary to hide the record of make the record of trial different? Why was it necessary

different? Why was it necessary if he was so guilty? It's because he is innocent. He is innocent. And the

innocent. He is innocent. And the

30-year sentence is makes them want to hide it as long as possible. My son has been up for parole three times.

They keep saying it's because he hasn't had treatment. You had to admit guilt to

had treatment. You had to admit guilt to do treatment. He wrote a thing that, you

do treatment. He wrote a thing that, you know, he didn't want to make this kind of mistake again so that he could do treatment so that he would qualify for

parole. That was in 2019.

parole. That was in 2019.

In 2022, he was scheduled for the treatment. As soon as he got to it, they

treatment. As soon as he got to it, they said, "Nope, not yet. You're here for 30 years. We'll do somebody who's going to

years. We'll do somebody who's going to be out in 21st." Okay.

>> Wow.

>> They've moved him back. They moved him back. They moved him back. Um, I hired

back. They moved him back. Um, I hired We paid for the treatments from the federal prison system. Um, he took four.

They were $55 a piece. We sent them, he we ordered for him. He filled them out.

He read the material, filled them out, sent them in. Has a certificate of completion for sexual assault, domestic violence, substance abuse, and contentious relationships. It's good

contentious relationships. It's good enough for the federal law enforcement, the federal prison system, but it's not a good enough for the Air Force. Okay.

The following year, I I hired a psychologist who did all the tests, all the tests to see what a person's like.

Okay. $600 of testing cost, $2,000 I paid so he could talk to him every week, once or twice a week for six weeks prior to coming up for parole. Not good

enough. He said that he found the most destructive thing that my son had was chronic PTSD and that if he wasn't suffering from PTSD, he would not have made the

mistakes that got him into this trouble.

And he I think is basically, you know, dating the wrong kind of girl.

>> Well, he was a he was a serial daterial men are.

>> He was a little cavalier, >> but he is not a rapist. And these girls were pursuing him. Um in

>> I hear you.

>> A came to him with a little romantic note. I want you back.

note. I want you back.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, take care. I want you back. M

is sending him seductive pictures and making all kinds of suggestions what she wants to do. Jay is is showing up wherever he and his friends are

uninvited, saying to his friends she wants to marry him and inviting him repeatedly day after day after day into her hot tub, even offering

sexual favors to get him to come over.

These girls were as invested in their relationship with them as he was with them.

>> Yep. So now you are awaiting another parole date. You've exhausted the

parole date. You've exhausted the appeals.

>> He says that they have just told him that he will start his treatment um November 13th. He doesn't need treatment. He didn't do a crime,

treatment. He didn't do a crime, >> but he will put himself through it, you know, because it's the only way for him to come home before he's 60. Okay? He

wants to he worries that he won't come home and everybody will be dead. Okay.

His gr his father whose actual birthday it is today would be 77 but he passed away two years ago. His paternal

grandmother passed away a year before that. My father is 92 and he's not doing

that. My father is 92 and he's not doing great >> and he you know I hate to say >> sure >> you know but what if he comes home and his mother's gone

>> right >> and his stepfather's gone >> is it you know >> but what are some of the other remedies again

>> yeah so you have parole you have you've exhausted appeals is there a possibility of a pardon have you gone through that process >> we have requested it. Um,

>> okay.

>> We requested it when uh Trump was in office last time.

>> Okay.

>> Um, John Maher is an attorney out of Illinois. He has vetted three of sexual

Illinois. He has vetted three of sexual assault cases, Kamacho, um, Sanuchi and my son. He's gone through all their

my son. He's gone through all their trial testimony and he would not allow them to be a part of this thing unless he believed they were innocent. So,

there's another lawyer that's vetted it.

Um, he put it in, but it never went anywhere. We've requested

anywhere. We've requested um, you know, through mail, emails.

>> Sure.

>> That kind of thing. We haven't gotten anywhere. I wrote to the

anywhere. I wrote to the um, Trump calls or his pardons are >> Yeah.

>> Um, I haven't heard anything back there.

>> But my point is is that these are all the avenues right now. We've got a parole a next parole date. You don't

know when that's going to be, but there is >> next May will be the parole. His parole

packet will have to go in in May.

>> Okay.

>> He will finish the treatment about two months before I believe.

>> Okay.

>> So, that's our next best option. But

they see him. They believe they believe the decision by the court. They do not want to relitigate. You can't even bring this stuff up. They won't even discuss these things.

>> But it but there's a possibility. I'm

just I'm just laying out possibility.

every every avenue there's a possibility of parole >> and then he would have to register as a sexual offender, >> right?

>> You know, and but he would at least be outast be able to have some kind of a life.

>> Correct.

>> That's why he started, you know, all of his education was in criminal justice.

Okay. So, he's never going to be able to be in criminal justice again. So, that's

why he started writing the books, you know, as maybe it's maybe.

>> And and and by the way, I I have not started it. I'll be the first to uh

started it. I'll be the first to uh admit that to you. but you did so kindly send me uh one of his other books. So,

he's actually written books while he's incarcerated. Um he actually wrote me a

incarcerated. Um he actually wrote me a letter as well, which I I found to be >> He really appreciates that you're willing to to let us tell his story.

>> Well, I appreciate you and I appreciate the fact that your patience with me. I

know we had to postpone this for about a month just uh for some personal reasons on my end. So, I really appreciate you doing that.

If anybody wants to get involved in this case or they have questions, uh, where where do you suggest they turn?

>> Well, I think that, um, Arvis would say sign the petition.

>> Okay. Um, if you know anybody who who has a podcast, you could always, you know, um, ask them to do our story, too.

Um, call your congressman, speak to anybody you know that you think could possibly help. Um, keep my son in your

possibly help. Um, keep my son in your prayers. Tell your friends and family.

prayers. Tell your friends and family.

If you have anyone that is thinking about making the military their career and there are parents involved, make sure that they ask the recruiters what

they are doing for falsely accused, wrongly convicted military men. Because

this has happened not to just my son, but to at least hundreds. And this is a devastating devastating blow to their lives.

>> Absolutely.

>> Every bit as devastating as some of the injuries they get in combat. This

this really impacts their future. And

I'd also want to let people know that if you go on to my website under teresapistries.com, right at the very top, you'll see here I

have a military false accusations. And I

created just a a a homepage uh where I have some of the cases that I have looked at. And there's a list of some of

looked at. And there's a list of some of these uh cases here. And I believe I have the petition that she's talking about right?

here. Read the petition on how we got here and then you can go on the petition that Arvis Owen wrote. And this has a really good rundown of the issue and

some of the case studies that back this issue up. And of note, this was studied

issue up. And of note, this was studied by Congress. They not Congress, I'm

by Congress. They not Congress, I'm sorry, the defense department or the secretary of war now department, the war department when they had a uh DAC iPad,

the defense advisory committee and I will not get the acronym right but there was >> and go ahead >> DACI-P A so

>> um the defense advisory committee on the investigations of sexual assaults >> um in right in and the by the prosecution and prosecution and defense.

Yeah.

>> And it was looking at everything. It was

looking at >> prosecution >> justice issues when it came to sexual assault on the on you know it was unbiased. It was going to be on about

unbiased. It was going to be on about just the process and you you testified, Arvis testified, Darren testified. Then

they disbanded the committee this year.

But of note, I will say in the SEC wars memos that he put out right after his speech at Quantico, there is mention of a justice committee. So there is

currently still a justice committee that is meeting. I do not know who stands the

is meeting. I do not know who stands the justice committee. I do not know

justice committee. I do not know anything about the justice committee.

There's no minutes that are posted online about the justice committee, but there is a justice committee that is ongoing. And my hope for that justice

ongoing. And my hope for that justice committee talking to you, Department of War, is that you were looking at cases

like like Roberts and considering those conviction integrity units and actually bringing back some of these

cases that in my view and in the view of many others were negatively impacted by undue command influence. I have an example of an undue command influence case in the article that I just wrote

recently for Real Clear Defense. I will

also hyperlink to that. I'll hyperlink

to the military false accusations. I

will also hyperlink to your podcast with Rich where you originally told this story with the help of Arvis and uh one of the investigators that you hired. And

I thought that was also a really good conversation.

But in trying to wrap up this podcast, as we're we're getting further down the line, is there anything I'm going over your notes as I say this, is there

anything else that we haven't covered that we're that we that we want to talk about on this case? I don't really think there is that I can remember. I think

we've done a pretty good overview of what people can do. So, the due process issues that happened, but if there's anything else that comes up or anything

that we didn't cover down on, I definitely will put those in the show notes. If there's

links that you'd like me to include, I will do so. But all I ask my audience to do is share this video. Share this

video. I will make clips afterwards. I

will have a blog afterwards. And in

closing, Holly, I want to give you the last word for anything else you would like to tell our audience.

>> I I don't know what else to say. I you

know, as a law enforcement officer, I have been accused by my male um partners that I was overly sensitive to

female victims and children victims. Um, I it's kind of ironic considering what the situation is. I would never ever

want a true victim not to seek justice.

What I really what the military has done here is not that they they created a whole another group of victims, but falsely accused and wrongly convicted. I

want the military to do the right thing.

And I want all law enforcement across the country, military and not, to seek the truth.

Seek the truth and justice, not fabricate not stack charges.

Seek the truth.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Holly. I'm

going to go full screen. say goodbye to my audience and I'm going to meet you backstage and say goodbye to you.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> All right, guys. Thank you so much for sticking around. Really appreciate your

sticking around. Really appreciate your time. This next week and the week after,

time. This next week and the week after, I'll be pretty light on podcasts. I have

some other things that are going on in my life, but I really do hope you'll share this story. I hope you'll talk to your friends about it. I hope you will question the system about this. This is

something we need to talk about and this is something we cannot be afraid to confront. As as Corky Gal just said

confront. As as Corky Gal just said here, absolutely military justice needs reform. We need to bring back due

reform. We need to bring back due process. This is not about the accused.

process. This is not about the accused.

This is not about the accuser. This is

about due process and military justice reform. So, thank you all for taking the

reform. So, thank you all for taking the time to join us here tonight on the Stories of Service podcast. As I always close out these calls, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other,

and bye-bye now.