American CIA Spy: US scared of India & Russia, RAW vs ISI, Trump & Modi | Andrew | FO441 Raj Shamani

And you said India has one of the top two agencies in the world. There's RAW

and there's the intelligence bureau which is IB. Why did you say so?

>> Indian intelligence is so good. They are

very effective at being able to identify terrorist activities, threats to the homeland.

And Pakistan's ISI uses terrorist tactics in India. They're blowing things up. They're killing people.

up. They're killing people.

>> Terrorists targeted tourists in Kashmir's behelgam. Pakistan harbors

Kashmir's behelgam. Pakistan harbors terrorism, hides terrorists including Osama bin Laden.

>> Osama bin Laden. Osama bin Laden. Osama

bin Laden. Indian Pakistan.

>> What's the advantage for America or CIA to continue supporting Pakistan?

>> We have spies that can tell us about India.

>> Why do you need intelligence against India at this point?

>> Well, India is not going to tell us everything either. So, how do we know

everything either. So, how do we know when India is lying? How do we know when India is telling the truth? We need

spies in India. Well, who's the best at getting spies in India? Pakistan.

You're telling me that the United States of America and CIA they fuel certain sparks between India and Pakistan to make sure that they keep fighting.

>> The whole world does that.

>> As long as your two countries are in conflict, your resources are being used against each other. So you can't grow.

>> What do you think is the biggest trend of India right now?

>> One of the biggest trends in India is education. The United States knows that

education. The United States knows that we are heavily dependent on Indian talent in our tech industry.

They can threaten to shut down visas all they want. But there is no country in

they want. But there is no country in the world that pumps out intelligent engineers like India. So India as a government they understand like hey the

United States may make a big noise but they need us.

>> Intelligence services who are the kind of people they spy on >> is people who have access to sensitive information. Even someone like you. You

information. Even someone like you. You

influence 13 million people on YouTube alone. 100% this episode is being

alone. 100% this episode is being watched by a human being at CIA.

Guaranteed. Hi.

How was CIA under Obama versus House CIA under Trump?

>> Barack Obama. He used CIA for covert action worldwide. He waged a war on

action worldwide. He waged a war on terror. He hunted down Bin Laden.

terror. He hunted down Bin Laden.

The United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden.

>> But in 2016 with the election of Donald Trump for his first term, >> Donald Trump wins the presidency, >> the 45th president of the United States.

>> He stopped giving them missions. He

stopped giving them funding. He stopped

using them. And he basically ruined every career inside CIA. Not because he was a but because CIA didn't do what they were supposed to do. So the

president punished them.

So today do you think is CIA weaker than how it used to be under President Obama?

>> Yes, without a doubt.

>> Did you see that picture? Putin, PM Modi and Shiing all three of them together holding the hand.

>> I mean I probably saw >> if these three countries come together and align US is in trouble.

>> The US is already in trouble with the alignment that those countries have had.

>> What's the smartest thing which India has done over the years that you feel is really intelligent?

It was so smart when India kept supporting Russia in the face of sanctions from the west.

>> I'm entitled to have my own side. I'm

entitled to weigh my own interest, make my own choices.

>> What is the biggest threat to India?

>> Well, every week me and my team, we work really, really hard to get information and people. so that you can learn and

and people. so that you can learn and become better version of yourself and actually go out and achieve all your dreams. If you have found anything which is worthy and valuable from this

episode, from this podcast, please hit that subscribe button because one subscribe helps us a lot. Thank you so much for helping us till now. In today's

episode, we try to understand what is America doing to make sure that they stay powerful. They want us to keep fighting

powerful. They want us to keep fighting with our neighbors. They want us to just be another country who is not powerful

and raising. Is all of this true or not?

and raising. Is all of this true or not?

In today's episode, we'll find out with former CIA agent Andrew Bamante, who has served in the CIA, the world's biggest

intelligence agency, and he has worked on lot of operations on how CIA makes and breaks countries and what is their real agenda. Please watch this episode

real agenda. Please watch this episode till the end because it's one of the most important episodes from the lens of somebody who was in the rooms and in the

agency which had all the axis of the world and how the world functions. Make

sure you watch this episode till the end and let me know in the comments what did you find the most interesting from this episode.

>> Do you learn how to kill? You learn how to kill in two different ways. And

again, the two ways that you learn how to kill have to do with the level of training that you receive. The first is called a non-intimate killing.

Non-intimate death means you're not present for the killing. Imagine a drone dropping a bomb or you setting a bomb and walking away or sabotaging someone's

car to explode or dropping poison in a pill. Those are non-intimate killings.

pill. Those are non-intimate killings.

The person will die, but when they die, you're not there.

>> Okay?

>> Intimate killing takes more training, more experience, and that's more what you see paramilitary officers do, where they are holding the knife when they stab the person, when they cut their throat, when they hang them, when they

shoot them, etc. Right? That's a very intimate version of killing. You need

people to learn non-intimate killing first to sensitize them to the process of taking someone's life. You can't

throw somebody into intimate killing and not expect them to have some kind of trauma.

>> Even in the military, you see this in the United States where they they will show troops footage of combat and then they will show troops footage of intimate killing, right? This person

shoots that person. They'll show them body disposal. They they'll show them

body disposal. They they'll show them surgery. They'll show them all sorts of

surgery. They'll show them all sorts of of blood and guts and violence to get them sensitized to what they will have to do when they're on the battlefield.

And they do that in a way to prevent against post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD.

>> How did you get desensitized?

>> So, uh, first they started my career very much without killing. I didn't have to hurt anybody. Uh, and you travel the world and what happens when you travel the world is you see how dangerous the

world is. So, I didn't have to hurt

world is. So, I didn't have to hurt anybody. But you can see people hurting

anybody. But you can see people hurting each other when you travel the world.

When you go to China, when you go to India, when you go to Afghanistan or Vietnam or Cambodia, when you travel to Mexico, when you travel through Chile,

you'll see pain. You'll see people with incredible infections on the street.

You'll see dead bodies in the street.

You'll see, you know, people poisoned and defecating or vomiting. like you see terrible things that don't exist >> in the average American experience.

And as you see those things over time, you start to build up a tolerance for the fact that human beings are just animals. That's the first step to being

animals. That's the first step to being able to kill someone. Not seeing them as a person, seeing them as an animal, just a creature, just a biological mass, not

any different than a a wolf or a coyote, a bird or a deer. That was kind of the first step for me. And then after I could start seeing people as animals, then we started identifying that some

animals keep you safe and some animals cause you harm, >> right? And during my time especially,

>> right? And during my time especially, there was a focus on extremism, specifically Islamic extremists. And

terrorists intend to do harm. They're

animals that do harm. And the West, Americans and French and Canadians and British, we're animals that try to keep things peaceful. So what does a peaceful

things peaceful. So what does a peaceful animal do to keep a harmful animal away?

It hurts the harmful animal. So that's

how I started getting migrated into more operations that were offensive in nature, not just intelligence collection in nature. And I started working in

in nature. And I started working in covert action and joint operations. And

then we started using building and planning operations that would use military joint military equipment to execute operations against terrorist strongholds and terrorist organizations.

And now when you see that you have a a drone in the sky and you see the heat signatures of people on the ground and then you you give the order to fire the the Hellfire missile or fire whatever uh

bomb is being dropped, you see an explosion. It's a giant ball of red and

explosion. It's a giant ball of red and blue and orange and then it goes away and all those little heat signatures have stopped moving and and then you see more heat signatures move in because the

military moves in to verify that everybody's been killed. and then thumbs up, mission success, and you give each other high fives and you move on to the next target. That's a non-intimate

next target. That's a non-intimate killing, but it's very hard to go from college to dropping bombs on people. So,

they have to walk you through a process.

>> What's the most brutal training you you underwent?

>> The hardest training for me was cold exposure. Um, and a lot of cold exposure

exposure. Um, and a lot of cold exposure training has is married with uh first responder or field medic uh training because when you expose somebody to cold

for long periods of time, their body starts to react. And it's a perfect opportunity for you to also practice medical triage. When do they need

medical triage. When do they need fluids? When do they need covered? When

fluids? When do they need covered? When

do they need to stop the exercise? And

I'm not a very big guy, so I get cold very quickly. And when I get cold, my

very quickly. And when I get cold, my whole body wants to stop working. My

brain wants to stop thinking. My body

wants to start shivering. I can't I can't keep my hands still. And going

through that training was was brutal. It

was very difficult for me. Like

>> I remember being there with other people who were unfased by the cold. I've met

people who can feel the cold, but they can mentally ignore it.

>> And it's just incredible. And and you see how different everybody is. And I

think the reason that I'm calling it brutal for me is because it showed me how weak I was in one specific area. And

that's a humiliating feeling to discover how bad you are.

>> What's a training that probably you didn't find hard or maybe even you didn't even go through that training, but something that you've heard of which happens in the CIA and it's like really

brutal. It's dangerous and something

brutal. It's dangerous and something that you would never want it to happen.

In professional intelligence, it's nothing like the movies. And when people try to tell you a story that sounds like the movies, it's a good chance that the story isn't real >> because they they are always working,

especially during training, they have to prevent against trauma. And if you just think about that simple thing, you have to prevent against trauma during training because if you traumatize someone in training, they're a broken >> Yeah.

>> operator. They'll never be able to operate in the field. So it's like it's like building your house and and breaking your window when you're building the house. What's the point?

You have to replace the window. So much

of training is very controlled. It's

very uh it's it's watered down in a way that it isn't scary. It isn't traumatic.

It's challenging. It's difficult, but it isn't traumatizing. So, we had to go

isn't traumatizing. So, we had to go through uh advanced interrogation training, how to give advanced interrogations, how to receive advanced interrogations. But all the stuff that

interrogations. But all the stuff that you see in the movies about people being slapped and I think there's a a James Bond movie where they have a chair and his testicles are cut out of the chair so they can hit his balls underneath the

chair. Like that's not the stuff that we

chair. Like that's not the stuff that we train on >> because that's very very unlikely to happen in the field. It's not realistic.

And if you were to train someone that way, >> you would ruin them. You would

traumatize them or they would come out of that and they say, "Fuck this. I'm

never doing this job." So you have to counterbalance the two. I say that I say that because I want to make sure people understand that when you use the word brutal, most training isn't brutal. The

real world is brutal. Training is not.

Training is difficult and challenging to prepare you for a brutal reality.

>> You said you went all around the world and you saw how dangerous the world was.

What's the most dangerous thing you saw?

>> So, I remember I remember being in South Asia. Um, and there are these gangs of

Asia. Um, and there are these gangs of kids in South Asia that are that that you think that they're just beggar kids.

You think that they're just like homeless kids begging, but they're actually all managed by an adult who's almost like a like a pimp or a manager

for the kids. And their job is to go out and beg from tourists, beg from locals, bring their money back, give it to their master, and then their master gives them food, right? because the kids can't use

food, right? because the kids can't use the money without the master. And the

master is in control of the food, which is what the kids really want. Well,

sometimes the master also coordinates with gangs. So then the kids can

with gangs. So then the kids can actually go out and funnel people into an alleyway or they can they can get people into a group and then a gang of adults can come up and actually mug the

people. And I've seen this in Africa.

people. And I've seen this in Africa.

I've seen this in South Asia. And it's a very scary thing because the people who are being rounded up don't know what's happening. So here's 20 laughing, giggly

happening. So here's 20 laughing, giggly kids who all come out of like a corner and they'll put five tourists into a circle and the tourists are like giving away dollars and giving away candy or

whatever else. And then you'll have this

whatever else. And then you'll have this group of seven or eight adults come out with knives, um, tire irons, poles,

axes, whatever. And they will mug the

axes, whatever. And they will mug the adults and they'll take them take their watches, take their passports, take their credit cards, take their money.

And if anybody tries to resist, they make an example out of them. So somebody

says, "Hey, you can't do this." And they hit him over the face with an axe. And

then all of a sudden, he's got a big split in his face. And I watch this stuff happen all over the world, but particularly in third world countries. I

watch this stuff happen. And the hardest thing is you're trained not to intercede because you're in that country illegally.

>> You're there undercover. You're now your passport is not yours. Your driver's

license not yours. Everything's

fraudulent. So you can't get involved because if you get involved, >> you're going to have to do a police report. You might get interrogated. You

report. You might get interrogated. You

might get questioned about what you saw.

And none of your cover is going to hold up. So you watch these things happen to

up. So you watch these things happen to innocent people. Sometimes you watch

innocent people. Sometimes you watch them happen to people that that you don't like. Anyways, I've watched

don't like. Anyways, I've watched Russians get mugged in foreign countries and it doesn't make me feel better that they're Russian, right? It makes me still feel like they didn't realize what was happening to them.

>> But let's try to talk a little bit specific about India.

>> Okay, >> because you went on record and you said that India has one of the top two agencies in the world, right? Uh there's

RAW and there's the intelligence bureau which is IB, right? These are the two.

Why did you say so? So

>> what made you say so?

>> Because people don't realize it and part of the reason people don't realize how good Indian intelligence is is because Indian intelligence is so good. The

research and analysis wing raw is a very close collaborator with the west. They

are very effective at being able to identify terrorist activities, threats to the homeland, uh counterterrorism, counter intelligence,

and and that capability is largely informed because of their relationship with the west, with the French, with the British, with the Americans, with the

Germans, the Canadians. So there's this close partnership between Indian RAW and Western intelligence and that makes them that gives them the best resources and

gives them the best training but it also gives them access to all the intelligence capabilities of those western services.

That said, what India is the most focused on is Pakistan.

So they're almost all of their efforts are really focused on countering Pakistan which makes it simpler for them because they don't have to look at 160 other countries. They only have to look

other countries. They only have to look at one. They will look at China because

at one. They will look at China because China is a growing threat. They will

look at you know other countries in the region and they'll they'll keep an eye on on factions inside India that are working against the government. But

their primary goal is Pakistan. And

Pakistan's primary intelligence service, the ISI, uses terrorist tactics.

This is something that's so important that people don't understand. Pakistan's

federal intelligence service are using terrorist tactics in India.

They're blowing things up. They're

killing people. They're they're they they carry out atrocities that the United States deems illegal that the UN deems illegal. But it's so delicate with

deems illegal. But it's so delicate with Pakistan that people continue to cooperate with them.

>> Why?

>> It was the West that really caused the division between India and Pakistan in 1947 >> is important. It's not like India and Pakistan always hated each other. India

is primarily Hindu and Pakistan is primarily Muslim. And the British really

primarily Muslim. And the British really came in in 1947 and decided hey here's here's the Muslim part we'll call it Pakistan here's the Hindu part we'll call it India and then ever since then there's been

conflict because it's you can't divide a country based on tribal alliances like that so much of the animosity between Pakistan India happened because of the

west didn't happen because of them from that animosity they had to lean into their own strengths Pakistan's a small country with very few natural resources India is a large country with

a great deal of natural resources. So as

India built its commercial enterprise, Pakistan had to lean into its Islamic roots and rely on partners in the Arab world to keep it alive to help it build

its infrastructure to help it build its own e economic base. So for a so what that means is India became independent.

They became Indian Pakistan became Arab.

They didn't identify as Pakistani as much as they identified as Muslim. And

that's a big part of what we see now because now 70 years later, India has a national identity as Indian. Pakistan

has a national identity but it doesn't trump its religious identity as Islamic.

So they will use tactics that are being used by all across Islam including Islamic fundamentalism. But India

Islamic fundamentalism. But India refuses to use fundamentalist tactics because it identifies as a na as a nation first. That's also why India is

nation first. That's also why India is the preferred nation over Pakistan worldwide. And I understand that's going

worldwide. And I understand that's going to make Pakistanis pissed, but the truth is the truth. People see the value of India. They don't see the value of

India. They don't see the value of Pakistan. People understand India is a

Pakistan. People understand India is a commercial growing entrepreneurial manufacturing hub, tech hub of the world. Pakistan is not. Pakistan is just

world. Pakistan is not. Pakistan is just a strategic geographic ally that sits between the east and the west. You go

back to the global war on terror.

Pakistan harbors terrorism. It it hides terrorists including Osama bin Laden. It

lies to its allies. It's a complicated, difficult place that also has nuclear weapons. Right? India is trying to

weapons. Right? India is trying to become first world. India is trying to establish and grow itself as a competitor to the Chinese and to the United States by making itself an ally to the Chinese and the United States.

But there is no comparison between India and Pakistan on many many levels. But

the but the reason that Pakistan turns to these terrorist tactics is because it's their advantage as Islamic in their

Islamic community to use tactics and to lean into uh fundamentalist Islam and these these shreds of terrorist uh cells that

continue to exist. You know we'll come back to India RAW and intelligence agencies but let's dive into Pakistan ISI for a while. ISI and CIA also hold

relationship. Now you say you're aware

relationship. Now you say you're aware of this whole thing that ISI is using terrorist tactics against India against a lot of other places which is

problematic which is illegal from the US standard from the west standard from the world humanity standards right still you have a complicated relationship still people support them in some sort of way

why >> why would they do so >> the fact that you call it a complicated relationship is exactly right and and the answer is in that definition Pakistan also

has incredible access into the Islamic world into fundamentalist Islam. So

while they may try to harbor terrorist activity directed at Afghanistan, directed at India, they don't want to harbor terrorists that are hiding there

from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar.

They don't want to harbor other terrorists. So they have a very robust

terrorists. So they have a very robust counterterrorist capability. Their

counterterrorist capability. Their people are trained, the United States, the British have trained Pakistan to find and counter terrorist activity in Pakistan. The problem is Pakistan

Pakistan. The problem is Pakistan doesn't share all of what they know.

>> They only share a portion of what they know and what they share is valuable enough that the west continues to cooperate with them. The other thing is

Pakistan doesn't trust the west because again Pakistani identity is heavily tied to being Islamic. So if their if their primary focus if their primary identity is Islam first well the west is not

Islamic. The west does not believe in

Islamic. The west does not believe in Islam the west does not follow predominantly follow Islam. So there's

always this distrust on a religious level which is a distrust on an ideological level. And then of course

ideological level. And then of course Pakistan remembers that it was the west that split the continent between Pakistan and India.

>> So there's this inherent kind of animosity towards the west. So they help just enough for the west to reward them with money, training, resources,

military equipments, etc. And Pakistan generates enough revenue that it can buy western western weapons >> because you specified an incident with

Osama. So CIA didn't share any

Osama. So CIA didn't share any intelligence with Pakistan because they were afraid that ISI would leak it. But

at the same time for 20 years they were getting a lot of intelligence and working together against al-Qaeda.

Right? So there was like at one point you try to not share things because it's it's illegal it's some sort you understand that they support certain terrorist in some sort of way and then

at other side you share intelligence and still till date there's no clear are they ally or are they an enemy are they doing right or wrong are they good for

the world bad for the world like we need to take a stand at one point right >> that's that's the average person's thought is that you have to take a stand. That's not the way that

stand. That's not the way that intelligence works. That's not the way

intelligence works. That's not the way that the government works. Once you make once you take a stand, once you make a a statement, then you are at risk of being

a hypocrite. You are at risk of looking

a hypocrite. You are at risk of looking like you're going back on your word.

That's why you see so many politicians who never really take a stand. They

always move. They say, "Hey, new information came in," or they change their mind, or or you know, there's something they didn't know about.

There's you have to trust me on this, right? There's all these reasons that

right? There's all these reasons that people don't take a stand because when it comes to geopolitics, there's no benefit in taking a stand.

For example, let's just say that we stood against Pakistan today. Well, what

if a new president's elected? What if

there's some sort of upheaval in the country? Do we do we still take a stand

country? Do we do we still take a stand or do we change our mind? Look at what just happened in Syria. For decades,

people have seen Syria as a safe haven for terrorists, as a dangerous place, as a ally to Iran.

And then there was a uprising, a new government took over, and people had a there was about a year and a half where people weren't really sure, should we support this new government or shouldn't we support this new government? And now

we're seeing more support for the government, but only after we saw continued attacks. and the new

continued attacks. and the new government that we're supporting in Syria is backed by a former al-Qaeda member right?

>> The world is a dynamic place. So you

don't want to take a final stance. You

want to do whatever is in your temporary best interest at any given time. So

>> what's the advantage for America or CIA to continue supporting Pakistan?

>> We have spies that can tell us about India.

>> And why do you need to have that? Why do

you need intelligence against India at this point? because you guys India and

this point? because you guys India and CIA is sort of an ally. They're partners

>> very similar to Pakistan and the United States being similar and being partners and allies, right? The truth is India India is mature enough. India is smart

enough to know that India has to take care of itself.

So let's not beat around the bush. India

is not trying to be a western country.

India is not trying to belong to a western block. It's not trying to belong

western block. It's not trying to belong to a western group. In fact, it's associated itself with an eastern economic group called the bricks, right?

With that involves China and Russia. So,

India is very independent. Well, India

is not going to tell us everything either.

>> So, how do we know when India is lying?

How do we know when India is telling the truth? How do we know when India is

truth? How do we know when India is operating in the best interest of American interests and when it's working against us? We need spies in India.

against us? We need spies in India.

Well, who's the best at getting spies in India? Pakistan.

India? Pakistan.

>> That's the only reason. That's the main reason. The other thing is you know

reason. The other thing is you know India's increasing its cooperation with China not in a military way but in an economic way. So if we want to get to

economic way. So if we want to get to China we can get there through India.

>> We can get there will be Chinese people in India. There will be Chinese

in India. There will be Chinese technology that goes into India. There

will be digital trails that travel between India and China. So the easiest way to get access to China might not be through China. It might be through

through China. It might be through India. So that's another reason why we

India. So that's another reason why we want to have spies in India. We want to have relationships in India. And as much as it might be difficult to understand, as long as there's conflict between

India and Pakistan, there will always be an interest from both sides to get help from the United States. Weapons,

intelligence, tactics, training. So we

don't want peace between India and Pakistan. If there was peace between

Pakistan. If there was peace between India and Pakistan, nobody would need us. So the United States knows that. So

us. So the United States knows that. So

the United States is happy to play on both sides to just keep enough friction that you don't turn into nuclear war but you do continue to distrust each other.

>> So you're telling me that the United States of America and CIA they fuel certain sparks between India and Pakistan to make sure that they keep fighting >> the whole world >> because it's in the interest of USA.

>> The whole world does that.

>> How do they do that? So part of its covert influence, part of its political kind of uh >> give me specifics like how how does this happen?

>> So there are uh you've got social media >> in India, you've got newspapers, you have TV channels, you have billboards, you have politicians, right? So all the

first world countries, the United States, Russia, China, um North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, we are going to fund

both sides, both the both the pro peace side and the pro-conlict side. We'll pay

for ads. We'll have cutouts. will have

assets that continue to kind of keep the distrust alive. Whether that's in

distrust alive. Whether that's in magazines, whether that's stories on the internet, whether that's TV shows, whether that's production companies that fund TV shows, right? We can place

screenwriters into the script writing department of of television channels. We

can uh hire journalists to write certain stories. We can create bots that post

stories. We can create bots that post stuff on Facebook or post stuff on Instagram. like the the world is uh is

Instagram. like the the world is uh is incredibly easy to shape with covert influence especially when there's already an inherent distrust in the

country. It doesn't take much to just

country. It doesn't take much to just validate somebody else's fear, right?

You can just create an AI picture and just say, "Hey, here's Pakistanis hurting an Indian child." And the same picture with a different uh a different poster can say, "Hey, here's Indians

hurting a Pakistani child." And that can just fund that can fuel enough conflict back and forth. And that's what more nefarious countries Russia and China

would absolutely take take advantage of doing that kind of operation. Whereas

what the United States would do is more sophisticated. It would only give

sophisticated. It would only give certain intelligence to Pakistani intelligence that shows like egregious activities in India and it would hold back other intelligence. And then it

would give India intelligence about egregious activities in Pakistan but hold back other intelligence. And the

whole reason that we're doing that is just to continue this internal conflict between your two countries because as long as your two countries are in conflict, your resources are being used

against each other. Your attention is being focused on each other. Your

economies are both being depressed. So

you can't grow because your GDP is being focused on military and intelligence activities. You're manipulating

activities. You're manipulating geopolitics the same way that you manipulate children in a playground, right? Hey, Johnny doesn't like your

right? Hey, Johnny doesn't like your hair. Hey, Jimmy thinks your mom is

hair. Hey, Jimmy thinks your mom is stupid. And now all of a sudden, Johnny

stupid. And now all of a sudden, Johnny and Jimmy are fighting.

It's up, but it's how the world works. It's how the world works. What do

works. It's how the world works. What do

you think the world's going to be better if we just let everybody grow? If we

just let everybody have a fair chance?

If we just let everybody try to become the biggest and the strongest? No.

Because as everybody gets bigger and stronger, there is more conflict.

Inevitably, big strong people run into other big strong people and they want to know who's the bigger and the stronger. There

will always be a limitation of resources. This is economics 101. You

resources. This is economics 101. You

can't have everyone succeed, right? Out

the the Bible and the Christian faith, the Torah in the Jewish faith, the Book of Mormon in the Mormon faith, right?

The the Buddha in the Buddhist faith, they have all taught us there will always be suffering. Human beings will make each other suffer. You can't fix

it. You can only prepare for it. But we

it. You can only prepare for it. But we

have been sold this idea of fairness and equality. Fairness and equality is what

equality. Fairness and equality is what you feed children when they're in school to make sure that they grow up to become adults that work quietly in a factory.

In real life, you should know this more than anybody. There is no equality and

than anybody. There is no equality and there is no fairness. You either have it or you don't have it. You have the network, you have the money, you have the power, you have the vision or you don't. And when you have it, you don't

don't. And when you have it, you don't give it away. Do you think this is just because of economics and you don't want everybody to grow to keep

the world in a peaceful way or is it just America's play to control the world and they just want to keep staying at the top? They want to rule. They want to

the top? They want to rule. They want to maintain their position and they don't want anyone to challenge them in any sense any form of way.

>> It's it's all it's a great question.

It's not America because it's a strategy that existed long before the United States. Before the United States, there

States. Before the United States, there was the British Empire, there was the Ottoman Empire, there was the Soviet Union, there was the the Persian Empire.

Like, it goes back. There's the Aztec Empire, the Incan Empire. We've learned

as human beings that that you need to create a economic benefit whether that's agricultural whether that's technological whether that'sformational

you need to create an economic base power structure and then you need to use that power as leverage to protect yourself and then you grow more power to

protect yourself even further right it's kind of like when you build like a hill out of One scoop of sand creates a small hill and then you have to scoop more sand to create that hill. But eventually your

hill gets so big that your sand starts to fall into the holes that you were digging. So you have to dig holes

digging. So you have to dig holes further out and further out again and further out again because you have to pull in resources to make your hill big.

This is how the whole world has always worked. It's just that up to World War

worked. It's just that up to World War II, it was never global. Right? Prior to

World War II, you had a strong country in Asia, a strong country in Latin America, a strong country in Europe, strong country in North America, and we were all kind of segregated. We were all

uh we were all different, but we had to ally during World War II. We had to start sharing resources during World War II. UK is getting bombed. America is not

II. UK is getting bombed. America is not getting bombed. So, America gives its

getting bombed. So, America gives its money and weapons to the UK to protect it. The Soviet Union is trying to fight

it. The Soviet Union is trying to fight a war, but it's running out of resources. So the United States and

resources. So the United States and China support Russia in World War II.

And the same thing is happening across Europe, right? The Nazis are pulling

Europe, right? The Nazis are pulling resources from every country that they that they attack to consolidate resources to build a bigger pile of sand. So the strategy that America is

sand. So the strategy that America is using now is no different than the strategy that's been using that the world is has been using forever. And if

America is no longer the leader of the free world, some other country will have the next biggest sand pile and they will continue to draw on the same process.

>> So how America maintains a superpower now?

>> What are they doing? What are the ways they're trying to control and maintain the power that they have?

>> The chaos that you see in the United States right now is because the United States is trying to answer that very question. Donald Trump, our current

question. Donald Trump, our current president, and our previous president, President Biden, had two very different ideas of how we are going to secure the United States. What I don't know, and

United States. What I don't know, and what we're all going to discover with the next election cycle, is whether those ideas are personal to the president or whether they're based in the party. Is it that the Republican

the party. Is it that the Republican party, >> the conservative party thinks one way and the uh liberal party, the Democratic party, thinks a different way? Is that

what's driving us? Is that what's driving the chaos? But in in the case of the United States, what's driving all of the chaos is for sure this question of how do we maintain our superpower

status. Donald Trump believes we need to

status. Donald Trump believes we need to carve out our technological advantage.

We need to put tariffs on other countries because we have all the money and if we put tariffs up then they have to work with us if they want access to our money. He believes we need a

our money. He believes we need a stronger military. He believes that we

stronger military. He believes that we need to essentially tax everybody else in order to have access to our market.

That's what he believes. That's what

he's trying to carry out. And there's

part of the American population that doesn't agree with that. But there's

another part of the American population that does agree with that.

Joe Biden and before him Barack Obama believe that the way the government, the United States maintains its superpower status is with diplomacy and positive relationships. We should be attractive

relationships. We should be attractive to other countries. So they want to do business with us. We should help the countries uh educate their own population. So we give visas so that

population. So we give visas so that Indians can come to United States, learn a great education, go back to India and make India stronger because a stronger India is better for the United States

because Joe Biden and Barack Obama still manipulated India behind the scenes.

They would still choose what intel got shared and what intel didn't get shared.

They would still fuel the conflict between Pakistan and India. We

understand as the world superpower that it benefits us when countries can stand more on their own but are still dependent on the United States.

So you've got President Biden, President Obama trying to make the world dependent on the United States quietly. You have

people like President Trump trying to make the world dependent on the United States very obviously. H okay let's go to the specifics of how US is trying to do

this whole like how US is trying to play this whole game and how are they maintaining their superpower first we divide it into multiple parts let's say CIA as an operation forming controlling making and breaking different

governments around the world that's one thing then 800 military stations all around the world covering the military power that's one then data colonization by controlling the data of the world by

what You said covert operation making sure that countries fight with each other. Then there's economic

other. Then there's economic colonization in some way that you give people certain debt money control their economies or put sanctions and bunch of stuff.

>> Let's go one by one. Why do they do this? Okay. And what's the real reason

this? Okay. And what's the real reason behind it? It's uh I love that you're

behind it? It's uh I love that you're going down this road because it's so interesting and I'm happy to talk about why and how we do it because everybody will understand that other countries do

it to each other also. It's just that for the United States, we're the easiest the easiest person or the easiest country to watch because we're the largest country >> also because you do it at scale which is

MCN >> and and the best place to start is to understand right now there is only one global superpower only one. It's the

United States. Everybody else is trying to rise up to the level of the United States. So that seems very unfair for

States. So that seems very unfair for every other country. Why does America have all the wealth? Why does America have all the freedom? Why does America have all of this information? Right? It

seems very unfair.

>> But put yourself in the shoes of the American government. The American

American government. The American government knows it actually has no friends. There is no other country out

friends. There is no other country out there that will cover our back. Every

other country in the world wants to see the United States diminished because the weaker the United States gets, the better everybody else gets.

That's the way everybody wants it to be.

Again, it's just like at work, everybody hates the boss because the boss makes the most money. The boss has the most power. Well, in geopolitics, everybody

power. Well, in geopolitics, everybody hates the United States because the United States has the most power and has the most money. So we already know as a CIA, as as an executive branch, as a

legislative branch, as a political body, as a civilian population, we already know the whole world wants us to fail.

If India becomes the next superpower, the whole world will want India to fail.

If China becomes the next superpower, the whole world wants China to fail because when you're the biggest, most powerful, everybody's your enemy. So the

reason CIA does all four of those things that you just talked about is because we know everybody else is against us.

It just depends who is partnered with who, who's friends with who at what time, how much money they put into fighting us versus how much time they put into fighting some other threat. And

because we're so wealthy and because we're so powerful, we can impact, we can influence. So the number one reason why

influence. So the number one reason why we engage in all of that is because we have to protect what we call American primacy. One of the first things you're

primacy. One of the first things you're taught when you join CIA is American primacy.

>> What is it?

>> American primacy is the idea that as long as America comes first, the world is a better place.

>> Why do you believe so?

>> Because we are only looking through the lens of Americans. Another way to say it is as long as America comes first, American lives are better. As soon as

America doesn't come first, American lives will be reduced. Americans only

speak one language by and large. Soon as

we're not the world's superpower, we're going to have to learn somebody else's language. We're going to have to depend

language. We're going to have to depend on somebody else's economy. We're going

to have less control over our own financial markets. Our currency is going

financial markets. Our currency is going to be dependent on somebody else's currency. So the US government under no

currency. So the US government under no circumstances wants that to happen.

What's something that you guys do to maintain the influence or increase the influence which probably people like me don't know about? One of the I think one

of the biggest areas is understanding currency. I don't think people

currency. I don't think people understand how currency really works.

Currency is kind of like a stock like a stock for a company. Uh currency is kind of like rice or milk or bread.

there's only a certain amount of it and that certain amount is determined by how much has been created at that moment.

Every country can create more currency.

That's part of the problem that we're economically in right now. But let's

just assume that there's only a fixed amount of currency. If there's $100 on the table right here, every one of those $100 is worth the same amount. Well, if

you reach out and pull 50 of those dollars off the table and you say, "Hey, these $50 are mine. Nobody else can have them." Well, for the rest of us in the

them." Well, for the rest of us in the room, the remaining $50 just increased in value because there's $50 that none of us are going to get. And the rest of us have to split whatever's left. How do

we get it? We have to start grabbing and reaching for it and taking it as quickly as we can. And then at the end of that day, somebody's going to have $10, somebody's going to have $2, somebody's going to have, you know, $25. So, it's

not equal.

Well, now if you take your $50 and you put five more dollars on the table, we're going to fight for those five extra dollars, which means that and we're going to fight harder than we

fought for the previous 50. So that

means that $5 that you just put on the table are worth more than any of the other dollars that were on the table.

And then once we fight and bleed over those, you might put out $2. And we're

going to fight over those even harder.

You're literally controlling the value of the money. Even though empirically the money is all the same price, >> you're actually creating the perception

that the money is worth more because instead of having a $100 to choose from, now we only have $5 to choose from. The

United States does this all over the world. We do it with the US dollar cuz

world. We do it with the US dollar cuz sometimes we put more US dollars in the market, sometimes we take them off the market, but we also do it with other

currencies. If we want to increase the

currencies. If we want to increase the value of the yen, we'll buy a bunch of yen, which is going to make the UK buy yen and France buy yen and China buy

yen. And the price, the value of the yen

yen. And the price, the value of the yen goes up. And then we sell. And now we

goes up. And then we sell. And now we buy more US dollars back with the yen that just went up. And then what does everybody else do? They sell their yen to try to recoup their costs. We were

the only ones that did this for a long time, >> but then China started to mimic us. And

now you see China doing the same thing with their runman B that we do with the US dollar with a major difference being that the United States has different divisions of government that control the

value of the US dollar where in China only one government controls everything.

So they can literally say the Renmanb is worth more at the snap of a finger and then everybody reaches it and buys it.

>> So we manipulate currencies just like people manipulate stocks just like you and I would have manipulated the dollars that were on the table. We've been doing it forever. I think people know to a

it forever. I think people know to a certain extent that it happens, but maybe they don't realize how easy it is to impact entire national governments.

We can make every person in India wealthy overnight if we chose to. We can

make everybody in Pakistan wealthy overnight if we chose to. So, we choose instead to make them systematically poorer. Here, we're going to make your

poorer. Here, we're going to make your currency worth less simply by putting it back on the market. and then nobody else wants the currency either. So now your economy goes down until you sign an

agreement with us to help us in this certain policy area and then we're going to buy your currency back off the market which is going to increase your natural national wealth which is going to make everybody happier. That's what you see

everybody happier. That's what you see with the tariffs that Donald Trump put out there. The tariffs are just there to

out there. The tariffs are just there to make your money worth less because you have to charge more for the same product >> and then nobody wants that. So the

government officials don't want you to suffer. Your government doesn't want

suffer. Your government doesn't want your you to suffer. So they have to go negotiate with the president. What does

the president want? You're going to buy your technology from America, not from China. Okay, fine. We'll sign that

China. Okay, fine. We'll sign that paperwork. And now your tariffs get

paperwork. And now your tariffs get lowered from 300% to 37%. Right?

>> See, US dollar is equal to controlling the money of the world.

>> And that is why everybody wants the US dollar. And people have understood this

dollar. And people have understood this especially countries like India, Russia, China they've understood and there's a massive thing going on which is called ddollarization.

>> The world is understood and that's why now India wants to trade in their currency. China wants to trade in their

currency. China wants to trade in their currency and especially after more incidents like the petro dollar conspiracy and entire thing people have understood not to buy oil anymore in US

dollars because that's the most and the most expensive thing that people are buying all around the world so now that people have understood dollar and

they're saying and refusing to not choose dollar do you think that this stance and this self-awareness will eventually lead into the change of world

order because in instances which something which was not possible 20 years ago like dealing in oil with your own currency is now getting possible.

>> Mhm.

>> India does that, China does that, Russia I'm sure is doing that as well.

>> It's a great point and darization is a fantastic example of what happens when the United States and other countries

start to abuse the currency. Now the

like you said the world has woken up to the fact that the dollar is a controlled manipulated currency. So how do we

manipulated currency. So how do we decouple from the dollar? Because as

long as you're reliant on the dollar, you will always feel the effect of what the United States chooses to do.

>> The only way that you get to be independent is if you take yourself away from the US dollar. And even economists in the United States all agree the dollar is dying. But just because

something is dying doesn't mean it's dead.

Just because it's slowly declining doesn't mean it's going to go away.

>> Doesn't mean it may not rebound and come back in popularity again. Because what

the United States benefits from right now is there is no other cons. There is

no other currency that is comparable to the dollar. If there was, people would

the dollar. If there was, people would have been able to abandon the dollar quickly, but they can't. The euro is strong but not strong enough. The

renmanb is popular but not popular enough. The yen is is historic but not

enough. The yen is is historic but not historic enough. So people still rely on

historic enough. So people still rely on the dollar. If anything, they've moved

the dollar. If anything, they've moved from the dollar into precious metals.

They've moved into gold. They've moved

into silver. They've tried to move into blockchain currencies, right?

Cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum. They're trying to find

Ethereum. They're trying to find alternatives, but nobody trusts the alternative as much as they trust the US dollar. So the decline of the dollar has

dollar. So the decline of the dollar has been happening, but slowly. That's what

you see the American administration trying to fix. Donald Trump doesn't want the dollar to decline. He wants to be strong. All of his wealth is also in US

strong. All of his wealth is also in US dollars. So he needs to find a way to

dollars. So he needs to find a way to make people faithful to the US dollar.

Again, he thinks he can do that by changing regimes and bombing across borders and making threats that eventually the world's just going to stop trying to decouple from the dollar.

The Liberal Party of the United, the Progressive Party of the United States thinks that we can do it by being more reliable and more trustworthy because they know that to change from the US dollar to something else is very risky and very expensive.

>> What do you believe the change in world order is coming or no?

>> I think there's a change in world order coming. I think we're already seeing a

coming. I think we're already seeing a change in world order. I think that 10 years ago the United the world was unipolar meaning it had one superpower

and everybody fell under that superpower 10 years ago.

>> Now it's a bipolar world. There's an

eastern power and a western power. That

western power is still led by the United States and it's still very ideological meaning it's very focused on democracy.

It's very focused on equality. It's very

focused on uh you know gender rights and work rights and uh and taxation and um representation.

But then there's the other half of the world, the eastern half of the world that's very pragmatic. They don't care about your ideology. You want to have a democracy, fine. You want to have a

democracy, fine. You want to have a autocracy, fine. You want to have a

autocracy, fine. You want to have a monarchy, fine. What matters to the east

monarchy, fine. What matters to the east is that we have economic trade. that we

all work in a way that makes us all wealthier and richer and more stable.

That practicality is a very strong very attractive alternative to what has historically been the United States forcing its ideology upon everyone. The United

States has fought more wars and lost more wars over its ideology than it ever did before. Vietnam failed ideology.

did before. Vietnam failed ideology.

Gulf one, Gulf 2 failed ideology.

Afghanistan, Iraq failed ideology. We

haven't been able to export democracy at the tip of a sword and we keep losing these major conflicts because of it. I

understand that the governments say that we won. All the soldiers know we didn't

we won. All the soldiers know we didn't win. But this practical pragmatic

win. But this practical pragmatic approach that was originally started by Brazil, Russia, India, and China has now grown. Now there's 13 members of the

grown. Now there's 13 members of the BRICS community. Many of them have

BRICS community. Many of them have always traditionally been allies to the United States like Saudi Arabia. You've

got these countries that are realizing we don't have to follow your ideology to be economically powerful.

>> And that that bipolar shift that's happened in the last 10 years is not slowing down. It's speeding up.

slowing down. It's speeding up.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. The BRICS countries have a have greater value for their currency, meaning they can buy more from the grocery store than they ever did before.

and the the purchase price par the the amount of groceries the US dollar will buy against the amount of groceries any of the bricks currencies will buy has very clearly been changing where

American dollars buy you less at the grocery store and the Indian currency buys you more at the grocery store.

That's that's unignorable and yet somehow the average American ignores it. Which country do you think

ignores it. Which country do you think has a fair shot of leading this new change which is going on in the world?

>> So China, Russia, India, I think these are the three frontiers anyone else.

>> Yeah. What what I anticipate happening so China is creating China's leading it.

China is leading it through the lens of anti-western sentiment. That's their

anti-western sentiment. That's their ideology essentially, right? Hey, the

United States has been abusive. The the

United States has been manipulative. The

United States has undermined you and they forced you to follow a certain ideology.

We will help you get stronger, but you don't have to agree with us. You don't

have to be communist. You don't have to use our currency. You don't have to agree with Xiinping. But we're an alternative. Right? China's leading the

alternative. Right? China's leading the charge because it has the wealth to compete against the United States. It

has that wealth because it stole technology from the West. It has that wealth because it it was focused on growing its military and growing its telecommunications infrastructure while

the United States was fighting a war on terror. It didn't get that wealth

terror. It didn't get that wealth organically, but that's kind of irrelevant. They did what they had to do

irrelevant. They did what they had to do and now they are a power to be reckoned with.

>> Yeah.

>> But as that pragmatic world kind of grows, China will be less of a manufacturer. There'll be less of

manufacturer. There'll be less of they'll be the head of the new body but not the heart of the new body. So who

will be the heart of the new body? I

think that will be India because I think India is already poised to manufacture more. It's already poised to take in

more. It's already poised to take in more uh investment than any other country because it has it's lacking in infrastructure. It's lacking in

infrastructure. It's lacking in manufacturing base but it's got an incredible amount of people an incredible amount of land and it has very flexible policy because Indian

leadership generation after generation Indian leadership understands that to serve all Indians it needs to be a very wealthy country.

>> Yeah.

>> Whereas China has the opposite. China

China doesn't think about serving all of the Chinese. It's planning to just let

the Chinese. It's planning to just let the old Chinese people die and just have a smaller population in the future.

Xiinping doesn't say that outright, but you can see from their policy, they're not they're not worried about old people dying. They're not worried about their

dying. They're not worried about their social welfare system. They don't value family the same way that the Indian people value family. So, India wants to be big and wealthy. China wants to be

smaller and wealthy. The United States has already proven that if you have a civil war, you'll cut your population down by 30%. And now everybody's wealth

goes up. So we've we've kind of set the

goes up. So we've we've kind of set the standard for what China is trying to do.

But that puts India in a position where it can benefit from both China and the United States. And India can 100%

United States. And India can 100% benefit from the conflict between the China, the Chinese and the United States.

>> Where do you see India? Do you see India supporting China or US if there was a war between US and China?

>> I see India being neutral. I see India being neutral. India's

being neutral. India's I understand that inside India the politics are very um unpredictable right very volatile and

that's because Indian people are very volatile right like I have yet to meet a calm Indian.

It doesn't take much before they get very excited about something, right? So,

it makes sense that that India and their politicians are so volatile internally because externally they're very consistent. They're very collective.

consistent. They're very collective.

That's one of the reasons that that India continues to be a closer partner to the United States than Pakistan.

Pakistan is not consistent. They have

radical changes in their promises and their focus and their uh economics and their military stance. India doesn't

India is very steady like a like a train right so if there's a conflict between the United States and China India will serve both sides India will be very similar to what uh what Switzerland has

always been and I think India models itself off of that neutrality so when the United States puts sanctions on Russia Iran India doesn't accept those sanctions it will still do business with

Russia if it's in the best interest of the Indian people >> and the United States can complain about it all they want But India knows, hey, if you don't want to buy from us, that's fine. We have this whole other eastern

fine. We have this whole other eastern block that will purchase from us. And

the United States goes, all well, shucks. We're going to keep buying from

shucks. We're going to keep buying from India anyways. The United States knows

India anyways. The United States knows that we are heavily dependent on Indian talent >> in our tech industry. They can threaten to shut down visas all they want but

there is no country in the world that pumps out intelligent, scholarly, technologically inclined, mathematicallyincclined engineers like India.

>> So >> also English speaking >> and also English speaking. So what are you going to do? You just going to cut off that whole talent pool because of your ideology? No. So India as a

your ideology? No. So India as a government and not just the current government, the previous government too and the next government as well. They

understand like hey the United States may make a big noise but they need us >> and India plays that and they know the same thing is true about China.

If you were still in CIA today and you were still active with the spy network and everything that you understand how United States work, how India works. How

would you explain India to the America right now? Because India from 50 years

right now? Because India from 50 years ago was very different. India today is very different. Forget 50, 20 years ago

very different. Forget 50, 20 years ago India was different and today India is very different. India

very different. India used to be dependent on certain people or certain countries. Now we're not.

India used to be very neutral. Now we

still are neutral but with our clear stance as well.

>> Earlier we used to not comment on anything. Now we are clear that Indian

anything. Now we are clear that Indian rights, Indian interests, national interest over anything in anyone's ideology.

Indians have started calling out for the first time about the western hypocrisy about the games that United States have been playing with China, Russia, India, Pakistan. We say it out loud,

Pakistan. We say it out loud, >> right?

>> We are focusing on our economy. We're

focusing on our citizens interest. We

are focusing on just us at this point and that's why we're friends with everyone and we want to just trade. So

today's India is different, >> right? And we already spoke about RAW

>> right? And we already spoke about RAW and CIA before, right? So it's we are in a much better position. How would you explain India to America's president

right now? If I was director of CIA

right now? If I was director of CIA and I had uh a meeting with the president, I would say, you know, there's all these countries in the world

that are making noise to get attention.

Russia's making noise. Ukraine's making

noise. France is making noise. China's

making noise. North Korea is making noise. All of the noise making countries

noise. All of the noise making countries are not who we should be focused on. We

need to focus on the quietest countries that yield the most power. And the top of that list is India. India is a quiet country. You don't create conflict. You

country. You don't create conflict. You

don't argue just to argue. You are

correct. You are more confident and more more politically uh ver verbose than you've ever been. But only when asked.

>> Yeah.

>> You're not out there waving a flag and making noise just to make noise. You're

not trying to get everybody to notice India.

>> True.

>> India is saying we're focused on India and when something else intersects with us, we stand our ground and we'll make the headlines that day, but we don't make the headlines the next day. Whereas

in the United States, we literally do whatever we can to make the headlines every day, you know.

So I would warn the US president, hey, if you if you think of a jungle, if the world is a jungle, India is the panther.

It's deadly, but it's black. It hides in the night.

If you don't look for its eyes, you won't even know it's there. And it

doesn't hunt everything, but it hunts when it needs to hunt. And if you're going to hunt the panther, you need to be ready for a fight.

>> Right? That's very different than China, which is like the rhinoceros, right?

It's very different than Canada, which is like the hippo. There there's all these North Korea is the snake, right?

You got all these countries that kind of represent these different categories in the jungle, but there's only one that has the teeth and the claws to do real damage,

but it selects when it fights and that is India.

>> Interesting way to describe India.

What do you think is the biggest strength of India right now and what's the biggest weakness?

>> Two great questions. So, I think one of the biggest trends in India is education.

Uh I think India understands that it has a large population that it has to educate and it's constantly trying to find ways to expand that education through food programs, through social programs, government programs. I mean

there are so many children that are so far in rural India that are so underserved that the government understands that a big part of what

makes them successful is they can take very successful Indians out of India just for four years for university, two years for a job, three years on a visa and then they come back and they bring

all that knowledge back to India.

Because one thing I will say is fascinating about Indians they are Indian first right even if they are what do you call them ABCDs >> Americanb born confused dies

>> yes >> even even if they're Americanborn Indians yeah >> they're still Indian first >> right and there's a that's that cultural identity is very powerful and I think

the government of India understands that that cultural identity is going to continue to mean that all of your successful Indians bring that success back to India You yourself are successful worldwide. You bring that

successful worldwide. You bring that success back to India, right? You bring

that reputation, you bring that wealth, you bring the currency, the tax base, you bring the business, whatever. You

bring it back to India.

So India is correct to be thinking that education is important. Educate more

Indians, find more talent, create more talent that can go out in the world and come back and be successful again. I

think one of the weaknesses in India is that they are still trying to replace existing processes. They're still

existing processes. They're still they're trying to step in and be the new manufacturing base.

>> But wealth doesn't come from manufacturing. Wealth comes from

manufacturing. Wealth comes from creating high techch, high ticket price, high value solutions. The United States created their empire following World War

II by being the epicenter for technological development. The reason

technological development. The reason China stole so much from the West was because China knew that if they were ever going to stop being the world's manufacturing base and and all the pollution and the water structure and

the infrastructure challenges that come with being a manufacturing base, if they were going to get past that, they had to focus on technology.

So they focused on telecom and they focused on electric vehicles and they focused on internet and AI and robotics.

Well, India is now seeing an opportunity to become the new manufacturer, but that's not going to be what makes them very wealthy. That's not going to be

very wealthy. That's not going to be what makes them truly independent. India

has an opportunity to essentially create another competitor to China because India has the kind of relationships with the United States where the United States will gladly give intellectual

property to India that they would never give to the Chinese.

>> Right? They would let they would give India the opportunity to create semiconductors so that we wouldn't have to be so dependent on Taiwan. They would

give India the opportunity to manufacture fighter weapons uh tanks, airplanes, uh trucks, avionics, drones.

They we would give that to India. These

are technologies that come at a very high price >> versus trinkets, toys, clothes that come at a very low price. Right? China grew

on trinkets and clothes. India was at the same time a competitor to China in terms of basic manufacturing. But India

hasn't yet realized that it can skip a level. It can skip right to high-tech

level. It can skip right to high-tech development by stealing from China, by bartering with the United States simply by being an alternative because the United States above all things doesn't want China to succeed. That's what

America wants more than anything. So

don't let China succeed. So we'll help India succeed if it keeps China from succeeding. M

succeeding. M >> I think China knows that and that's part of why they have increased their offensive position against India and I think India understands it's in the crosshairs of China. So they're trying

to maintain friendships with everybody like you said but that's a vulnerability for India. If India doesn't take a

for India. If India doesn't take a chance soon then it's going to be stuck as the manufacturing hub of the world for the next 30 years. The air quality is going to get worse. The water quality

is going to get worse. Poverty is going to get worse. You're going to keep having more children than you can educate because you simply don't make enough GDP for everybody.

>> You keep saying that China steals from America >> in what ways?

>> China steals from America in every way.

>> Do you think Tik Tok is a way to steal certain things?

>> I do. I absolutely do. But I think Tik Tok is more of a tool for influence than it is for theft. What the the way that Tik Tok is used for theft is that the

algorithm and the the mass data collection is owned by the Chinese. So

now they know what age groups are watching what content, what genders are being influenced by what messages, what gets the most likes, what gets the most dislikes, what geographic region logs in

the most, what internet provider is used the most, uh how much time people on average spend on TikTok, which can be, you know, expanded to how much time they spend online. Imagine if you wanted to

spend online. Imagine if you wanted to do harm to a country. How useful is that information? How useful is it to know

information? How useful is it to know that there are more people using more hours of Tik Tok on a Verizon-based internet provider in Chicago than

anywhere else in the country? Who how

are you going to prioritize which internet provider you shut down first?

Well, it's like, "Oh, this is easy.

Let's learn how to shut down the Verizon internet server >> because if we can kill that one server in Chicago, we're going to shut down Chicago, but it's probably also going to shut down other parts of the country.

That's what they get to learn. Oh, we

can see that that there are a lot everybody talks about children like 10 to 15 is what we all think of when we think about the influence that Tik Tok has. My concern is all the adults that

has. My concern is all the adults that are on TikTok. You know how many people recognize me from Tik Tok and I don't even have a Tik Tok account? People

recognize me from Tik Tok because I'm on somebody else's Tik Tok feed. But the

average person who uses Tik Tok, they don't they don't realize that the content they're watching isn't always controlled by the personality that they're seeing and they don't bother to

look in the lower left corner to see who's actually creating the content. So

how much influence do you have not over 15 year olds who have very little impact but influence over 40 year olds 60 year olds 30 year olds 20 year olds how much

of of the challenge that America is going through right now culturally because of the social media age has been cultivated in part by Tik Tok but in part by Meta

in part by all of the social media companies. We already know that 2016

companies. We already know that 2016 elections were tampered with by the Russians through Facebook and through what was then Twitter. Like they know this. So

this. So what are we doing about it? That's

that's my answer to how is China stealing? Do I think Tik Tok is a tool?

stealing? Do I think Tik Tok is a tool?

They steal the metadata, but then they use that metadata to create influence on the right networks >> country. Do you also feel it can be a

>> country. Do you also feel it can be a great spy tool? Because probably it's listening to your conversations, tracking your location.

>> It's not it's not a probably it's all of social media are phenomenal spy tools.

What here's a major difference. People

remember the 1960s and 70s when CIA would create its own technology.

We would create the SR71. We would

create drone aircraft. We would create uh stuckset and blow up centrifuges in Iran, right? We would create

Iran, right? We would create technologies from scratch. So now some of the best technology that we use out there isn't developed by CIA. It's

developed in the open market. It's

developed by innovators and engineers.

One of the biggest tools that the United States uses to create new technology isn't engineering. It's investment. We

isn't engineering. It's investment. We

can invest in a new technology and part of that investment means they're not allowed to share it with anybody else.

So that's how we can stay one step ahead of everything because the United States has become the tech innovative sector of the world.

>> Explain me how you see RAW and CIA like what are the differences? What do they do? How are they different in approach?

do? How are they different in approach?

>> That's a it's a good question and I would love to be smarter on RAW. We call

them RAW RAW.

>> RAW. Yeah.

>> Yeah. The research analysis wing. Um if

I'm happy to use the word raw if that's what if that's what they're called in.

>> No no it's okay.

But CIA is largely a human intelligence centralized intelligence aggregator. So

what that means is CIA is is the primary intelligence service in the United States for collecting human intelligence for going out and meeting with people um and getting secrets from people and

turning those secrets into intel reports that get condensed into analysis reports that get shared with the president. But

it's only really for human intelligence.

NSA does signals intelligence. DoD or

DIA does defense military intelligence.

And we have all these different intelligence groups that do all sorts of different things. Inside India,

different things. Inside India, RAW doesn't really only serve one purpose. It serves multiple purposes. It

purpose. It serves multiple purposes. It

has paramilitary activities. CIA also

has paramilitary activities, but CIA's paramilitary activities is small. RAW's

paramilitary are comparatively much larger. RAW also handles more than just

larger. RAW also handles more than just humans. They handle SIGN. They handle

humans. They handle SIGN. They handle

open source intelligence. They don't

serve as the only aggregator of intelligence around all of India.

Whereas the United States CIA is the central aggregator for all intelligence.

CIA is what produces a daily report for the president. Um I don't know if RA of

the president. Um I don't know if RA of RAW of RAW creates a central until a central daily report for um for the prime minister. I don't I don't think

prime minister. I don't I don't think they do but I don't know. So those are kind of some of the differences. CIA is

very well funded one of the best highest funded intelligence organizations um government agencies in the United States. RAW is not one of the highest

States. RAW is not one of the highest funded int uh government organizations inside India. So there's a number of

inside India. So there's a number of differences in those ways. Also, um,

RAW's focus is on analysis.

CIA's focus is on intelligence. And what

I mean by that is RAW's focus is on producing something useful from multiple sources of intelligence. CIA is not necessarily focused on analysis. They're

focused on the multiple sources of intelligence. They centralize the

intelligence. They centralize the intelligence and then from there they try to create useful analytics or useful analysis of the intel where for raw it's

in the name analysis is critical to them and then of course the number of enemies CIA is focused on the whole world but the research and analysis ring raw is primarily focused on Pakistan another

fant fantastic difference between CIA and RAW CIA everybody knows about CIA you there's Wikipedia pages about CIA you can find it movies and television

shows but nobody talks about RAW, right?

It's still either a secret because they've kept the secret or it's a secret because India doesn't make noise. They

don't want the world to think that they're good at intelligence. They want

the world to think that they're bad at intelligence. So then they're constantly

intelligence. So then they're constantly underestimated.

>> CIA is the opposite.

>> Do you think they're bad at intelligence?

>> No, I don't think so at I think that I think that India is one of the best countries at intelligence worldwide.

Maybe they're not in the top three.

They're not like the MSAD, which always makes a big splash. They're not like CIA, which always makes a big splash, but they're very similar to the British MI6. British MI6 is very, very good, but

MI6. British MI6 is very, very good, but nobody talks about them. You never know what they're doing, >> right? Well, India is a former colony of

>> right? Well, India is a former colony of Great Britain. Where do you think RAW

Great Britain. Where do you think RAW was trained? by MI6. So, they're both

was trained? by MI6. So, they're both what we call silent or quiet professionals. They're very good at what

professionals. They're very good at what they do. They don't even leave a trace.

they do. They don't even leave a trace.

They're more like Russia. When Russia

carries out spy operations, by and large, you don't know they're happening.

Yes, sometimes they kill somebody in public with a cyanide pill or with a poison umbrella, but not often. How many

times does does the SVR, the Russian intelligence service, how many times does SVR make the newspaper?

Almost never. Neither does MI6. Neither

does CIA or I'm sorry, neither does RAW.

Who makes the newspaper all the time?

CIA and MSAD.

>> But that can also be a technique or a strategy >> 100% >> to just make so much noise so that people don't know what really is going on behind noise. They don't know what you're actually capable of. They become

afraid of you. We call this information warfare, right? Not covert influence

warfare, right? Not covert influence because it's not covert. It's very

overt, but it still creates this information landscape where you're intimidating the world into thinking, well, if they can do that, what else can they do?

>> Right?

>> RAW operates at a much much lower budget than CIA. Does that as a former CIA spy,

than CIA. Does that as a former CIA spy, does that bother you or does that impress you?

>> It it's it's impressive more than anything. Anytime people have

anything. Anytime people have effective national security on a small budget, that's impressive considering what the United States spends on

national security. But I also go back to

national security. But I also go back to the fact that India is really focused on one enemy.

>> One enemy means that you only have to have enough budget to cover protecting you against one enemy. The United States has every enemy like every country in the world is in some way, shape or form

an enemy. So we have to have a budget

an enemy. So we have to have a budget that covers every country in the world.

>> Which is what is the biggest threat to India?

>> Pakistan without a doubt.

>> Pakistan. What is some threat that we are not aware of?

>> I would imagine >> some level of intelligence.

>> No. Yeah. Yeah. So the I think the the biggest threat to India is similar to the threat to the United States. China

strategically wants to keep India minimized >> just like China strategically wants the United States to be on decline because not only does China not want the United

States to improve, it doesn't want any other new superpower to rise to compete with China because China knows what it's doing to the United States and it doesn't want to let anybody else do that to it. So, it will partner with Russia

to it. So, it will partner with Russia to keep Russia down. It will partner with Iran to keep Iran down. can it can suppress these economies. India is still independent. So it it's figuring out

independent. So it it's figuring out what to do with India which is why almost every quarter the relationship between China and India changes because

China will overstep and show that it's trying to suppress India and India will take back its claim and China will back off and and you have this very contentious relationship between the Chinese and the Indians. But that's not

a threat that you're not aware of. I

would say it's a threat that can be very um difficult to identify because it's multifaceted. It has to do with your

multifaceted. It has to do with your military and their military, your economy and their economy, your technology and their technology. Every

time an Indian company uses a Chinese technology, that Chinese technology is capturing Indian data and it's saving that Indian data and it's preparing to use that Indian data against India. The

United States isn't that different which is why India should be investing in its own organic its own native infrastructure.

>> Have you heard about snatch 400?

>> No.

>> There's an operation according to report reports that India was able to snatch about 400 of people in Nepal, Bangladesh and all

around the world with just that kind of budget.

>> Wow. So

>> snatch meaning render like uh capture >> in just one decade they were able to identify these people who are who are like national enemies who have done

different kind of terrorist activities.

They've been able to either bring them back to a country from Nepal, Bangladesh, Colbo or they've been able to terminate them, destroy them,

>> neutralize, >> neutralize them.

>> We like neutralize more than terminate or destroy >> or kill them in some for some in some form or extradit them legally, illegally, somehow. So, they've been

illegally, somehow. So, they've been able to do that. That's like Mossad level precision. Well,

level precision. Well, yes, it's very impressive, but let's also make sure there's almost zero chance that RAW did that by itself.

>> It's almost certain that they did that in concert with the United States or with the UK because they were going after terrorist targets. That's one of

the big benefits for countries that are allied with the United States. It's one

of the one of the reasons so many countries even though they don't like our president and they don't like our policies, they still cooperate with us because they know the United States helps other countries with their own

national security issues. So you can instead of spending your own money, you can spend American dollars to capture terrorists that are a threat to India.

All you have to do is go to the United States and say, "Hey, we have a target.

Here's where they are. Here's what

they're doing. They're an Islamic extremist and we know that you want to capture Islamic extremists. It just so happens that this Islamic extremist is planning an attack in Mumbai. Well, now

you get the benefit of still neutralizing the terrorist. the United

States gets the benefit of capturing another terrorists and you don't have to spend as much money or as many resources because the United States will come in and provide uh Navy Seals, airplanes,

helicopters planning satellite imagery, intelligence, you know, in infill plans, Xfill plans, night vision goggles, everything. They'll they'll pay

goggles, everything. They'll they'll pay for it all to take down the terrorist even though the terrorist was planning an attack in India.

>> So that's smarter.

>> Very smart. Yeah. make Americans pay for the stuff that we want to get done.

Okay, so CIA and RAW works together on a lot of lot of different missions, right?

There's there are reports. I don't know how true that is or how false that is because to validate the truthfulness in this whole matter is way above my

intelligence and paid. So I'm just going to ask you, do you think do you know about it or do you think it's true? So

I'm going to read it as it is because I don't want to get it wrong. It's like in 2004 there was a guy named Rabinda Singh

a raw joint secretary defected to the United States with classified files.

>> He's reportedly living in New Jersey now with CIA asylum.

So now the question is when a CIA asset defects from a partner intelligence service with classified files, what does that do to the relationship between two countries?

>> It's very difficult. It it's it creates an incredible amount of tension. That

said, what you just read is by no means impossible. I wouldn't even say it's

impossible. I wouldn't even say it's unlikely because the relationship between the United States and India is strong, but

it's not close, right? The United States knows that India is going to do its own thing. It helps with China. It helps

thing. It helps with China. It helps

with Russia. It skirts sanctions. So,

it's not like they're so close to India like they're so close to say Germany.

And it's a it is absolutely a standard kind of intelligence operation to have one country have an individual defect with classified information that they

bring to another country and then they basically trade asylum for their classified information. So all of that

classified information. So all of that makes sense. And if the information is

makes sense. And if the information is important enough, the United States would say you can stay here. If the

information wasn't that important, they would send them right back to India because it's about the information. Is

the information worth the geopolitical blowback of pissing off India or is the information silly and we don't want the geopolitical blowback. So, we're going to send it

blowback. So, we're going to send it back. So, everything that you just laid

back. So, everything that you just laid out made sense according to that standard process. What I don't know,

standard process. What I don't know, what I'd be very curious about is what intel that officer gave. What would what

would be so valuable that you would give them asylum? I wonder if it's 2004.

them asylum? I wonder if it's 2004.

I wonder if it had something to do with Osama bin Laden. If if RAW knew something about Pakistan granting asylum

or granting um terrorist safe haven that RAW wasn't telling CIA and then this person defected and told CIA that because that would be juicy enough to piss off India. Um, it could also have

to do with Indian weapons development, Indian uh nuclear development. That's

another secret that India would never tell the United States, but a RAW officer might know. It could have to do with Pakistani nuclear development. If

Pakistan's close to having or weaponizing or generating a new nuclear weapon, India might not want to share that. India might not want to share that

that. India might not want to share that because they don't want the Pakistanis to know that they have a spy in Pakistan. Well, that would be

Pakistan. Well, that would be information that the United States would be willing to create a geopolitical divide over.

>> Do you think it's possible this whole thing?

>> The whole thing is very possible. Not

that's I'm trying to say. Uh I don't think it's not it's not even low probability. It's uh it's very possible

probability. It's uh it's very possible and it's very probable >> and it's it's crazy what these guys do.

Well, don't forget too, I believe it was India that was recently accused of killing um a high high value target in Canada.

>> Yeah.

>> Not that long ago. Talk about

capability, right? That's that's India able to assassinate in Canada. That's

impressive. That's MSAD level stuff.

there's assumption or maybe let's say candid at that time Trudeau he accused India of

killing Nar how true or false that is but according to the five eyes intelligence right these are like five countries who share their intelligence report they don't uh do intelligence

operations on each other that's what they say >> correct >> right >> UK admitted that they heard something and they had the information about this

conversation. So probably if UK heard,

conversation. So probably if UK heard, US also knew this, right? Then why

didn't they share it with Canada? Why

didn't they talk about it?

>> Chances are Canada also knew it.

>> Then why are they now creating a fuss about it to talk to say as if India did something wrong?

>> Because if India did it, let's just we are assuming that India did it. We don't

know that yet. I if if anybody was planning an assassination in your country, if it's not against your citizen, then you handle it differently, right? If

somebody's going if there's a threat of killing a Canadian citizen in Canada, then the Canadian government is going to reach out to the the citizen who's in danger, but they're also going to try to apprehend the person who intends to do

harm to their own. If you're not a Canadian citizen, it's a whole different level of effort because think about how much time and how much money, how many Canadian tax

dollars would be spent protecting a non-Canadian inside Canada. That's how

the intelligence world works. If you're

on, it's so sad, but it's so true. If you

are the target of an intelligence operation, you're You can do nothing to stop it. you're done. If they want to

stop it. you're done. If they want to kill you, if they want to arrest you, if they want to shut down your business, if they want to take your money, you have no chance because they have every power,

every resource, every gun pointed at you, every satellite pointed at you.

There is nothing you can do to stop an intelligence service that's targeting you.

>> Any intelligence service, >> any intelligence service, I don't care if it's the Nigerians, they'll do it.

>> Who do you think they're spying on?

>> India.

>> Who are no like intelligence services?

is who are the kind of people they spy on?

>> The uh the the primary kind of rubric for intelligence is people who have access to sensitive information. So if

you don't have access to sensitive information, you're already off the list. So all the waiters and the

list. So all the waiters and the waitresses and the veterinarians and all the, you know, dentists of the world, they're all off the list because they don't have access to sensitive information.

Then inside of sensitive information, what intelligence services are really focused on is sensitive information of a national security element. Meaning, how

do you maintain your national security or how do you degrade another country's national security? So now when you look

national security? So now when you look at that rubric, it gets even smaller.

Accountants are probably not on that list. Neurosurgeons are probably not on

list. Neurosurgeons are probably not on that list. They both have access to

that list. They both have access to sensitive information, right? Bankers

are probably not on that list. Engineers

are probably not on that list. Uh

computer programmers are probably not on that list. Even though they all have

that list. Even though they all have access to sensitive information, their sensitive information is not of a national security concern. So what

intelligence services want are the people who can reach into the way that a country defends itself or the way that a country attacks another country. That is

still pretty significant. That's broad

because there's cyber crime, there's there's military conflict, there's intelligence conflict, you've got financial crime and financial activity, organized crime, cooperation between

countries, uh in uh trading of science, trading of medicine, biological, chemical weapons of mass destruction, nuclear capabilities, energy infrastructure, economic espionage,

industrial espionage. There's lots of

industrial espionage. There's lots of ways that one country protects itself and degrades another country. Even

someone like you, you influence 13 million people on YouTube alone.

>> Do you think I I'll be I can be the one on their radar?

>> You're absolutely on their radar. You're

for sure. I I would be surprised if uh Indian intelligence doesn't watch you.

I'd be surprised if UK intelligence doesn't watch you. I'd be surprised if American intelligence doesn't watch you.

Somebody has your name on some list somewhere and they're either collecting and and watching your content with a human being or they're collecting and watching your content with a bot or an

AI so that they can wait and see when something happens that's out of the ordinary. This episode 100% this episode

ordinary. This episode 100% this episode is being watched by a human being at CIA guaranteed.

>> Hi.

>> And what are they get what are they going to get out of it? hopefully

nothing, but they're probably watching it to make sure that I don't expose too many secrets. They want to make sure

many secrets. They want to make sure that I don't cross the line, especially because you are not an American citizen.

>> They don't want me sharing outside of my briefing, outside of what I'm allowed to share with another >> How do they know that you've not shared something with me offline?

>> Well, that's because they also Well, they don't trust me. They know that there's a legal obligation.

Um and >> they would never know.

>> No, they would know. So,

>> like if you share something with me offline >> with when the cameras are off, how would they ever get to know?

>> They'll never.

>> That's a Don't ever think that that an intelligence service can't know. I just

went through this with you. If an

intelligence service wants something, >> they'll get it.

>> They'll get it.

>> My cell phone is sitting right over there. Where's your cell phone sitting?

there. Where's your cell phone sitting?

>> It's off somewhere. That means there's a there's a satellite right now that can place your cell phone and my cell phone within the same geographic footprint and we have both accepted software on

our cell phone probably from Facebook or from Instagram or from Twitter that lets them put that software on there. So now

your your phone, my phone, his phone, her phone, her phone, all of them are geographically in the same place. And if

they can all be geographically in the same place, they can be hacked into any one of these phone numbers. And as the phone numbers are hacked into, they can turn on the microphone in any one of those phones. They can pull the contacts

those phones. They can pull the contacts list. They can pull the recent messages.

list. They can pull the recent messages.

They can pull the history. They can pull up anything that's on the buffer system between uploads. So all of that if they

between uploads. So all of that if they wanted it could be pulled. Maybe not in a moment, but they could pull it all.

And then they could track where your cell phone goes after today and where my cell phone goes after today and his cell phone and his cell phone and her cell phone. So even though we might all go in

phone. So even though we might all go in 10 different directions, they can they can track us all. So now if there's an email, if there's a a recording, if there's a picture, if there's a snippet, if you ask him a question, hey, remember

when Andrew said that thing about Pakistan, that might be all it takes for them to be like, "Oh, we know that they had some conversation off camera or offcreen." And that's assuming that they

offcreen." And that's assuming that they don't put in a warrant to pull all of your footage before you edit it. because

it's being recorded on American soil using American power coming out of that American outlet right there. So they

could pull all of it with a warrant, right? They could also just pull you

right? They could also just pull you aside at secondary and say, "Raj, what did Andy say? We're not letting you go back to Indiana until you tell us back to India until you tell us what he said."

said." >> Thanks for scaring me.

>> It's not as hard as people think.

>> Do you think they're capable of character building as well?

>> Meaning building a false character?

Yeah. Building someone in my life, planting it so that they just want to have >> I don't know there are different ways.

>> That's what human intelligence is.

>> Yeah. Like building friends in my life, building mentors in my life, uh sex edge, >> all of that. It is planting people into your life that gain your trust. That's

all human intelligence is. CIA doesn't

use sexion, not like uh China does or Russia does or North Korea does, but China uh but the United States will absolutely leverage other avenues of human intelligence. They'll create

human intelligence. They'll create business opportunities. They'll create

business opportunities. They'll create uh shared networks. They'll have

somebody who is a friend of yours already introduce them because the friend doesn't know that they're CIA.

Anything that you can do to gain access to a person, they'll reach out to you on LinkedIn. They'll meet you at your

LinkedIn. They'll meet you at your favorite coffee shop. They'll follow you from home and go to your favorite massage parlor, whatever it is, >> they if they want you, they'll find a

way to connect with you.

>> Now, just because they connect with you in person, >> doesn't mean that you're going to like talking to them. Doesn't mean that you're going to know their CIA. Doesn't

mean they're going to win.

>> It just means that they were able to they will they were able to start the conversation. But then it's the skill of

conversation. But then it's the skill of the officer that makes it so that you feel like you want to talk to them again, talk to them more, travel with them, be friends with them, share secrets with them. That's all based on

the officer.

>> How was CIA under Obama versus how CIA under Trump?

>> Totally difference.

>> What are the differences?

>> Totally different. CIA under Barack Obama was working the way it was always built to work. Meaning the president is the head of the executive branch. CIA is

under the executive branch. Remember the

US government has three branches. The

legislative branch which is all of our representatives, our congress people, um the house, the senate, etc. The executive branch which is the president and the white house and then everybody

who directly reports to the president like department of defense, like CIA. Um

and then you have the judicial branch which is everything that has to do with the law of the land. So the um FBI is part of the judicial branch. the juries

or the uh the judges, our judicial system, all of that falls under the judicial branch of government. CIA falls under the executive branch of government,

which means the executive, the president does whatever they want to do with CIA.

That's how it was built. So under

President Obama, the CIA did whatever President Obama wanted him to do. And

President Obama was one of the most lethal presidents in history. He used

CIA for covert action worldwide. He

waged a war on terror. He hunted down Bin Laden. That was exactly how CIA was

Bin Laden. That was exactly how CIA was built to be used by a president. But in

2016 with the election of Donald Trump for his first term, CIA turned against their president, >> right?

>> They started saying that he was a Russian he was guilty of Russian collusion. There were senior leaders who

collusion. There were senior leaders who were signing petitions against the president. Like CIA, whether they were

president. Like CIA, whether they were right or wrong about Donald Trump is irrelevant. The point is they were never

irrelevant. The point is they were never supposed to have an opinion about the president. So when they worked against

president. So when they worked against their president, Donald Trump just shut down CIA. He stopped giving them

down CIA. He stopped giving them missions. He stopped giving them

missions. He stopped giving them funding. He stopped using them. And he

funding. He stopped using them. And he

basically ruined every career inside CIA. Not because he was a

CIA. Not because he was a But because CIA didn't do what they were supposed to do, so the president punished them and he was like, I'm not

going to use you. So for four years, all CIA did was was lose people. People were

quitting. They were resigning. They were

being fired. They were retiring early because they had no job anymore. They

had no meaningful work. The president

wasn't asking them for intelligence. He

was buying his intelligence from private intelligence networks. He was

intelligence networks. He was collaborating with his uh international peers, the countries that he still trusted, but he wasn't using CIA. So

then when Donald Trump left office in 2020 and Biden came back in, Biden tried to re-engage CIA the same way that Obama had. But but Biden's administrative

had. But but Biden's administrative policies were focused on COVID and domestic issues. So he started hiring

domestic issues. So he started hiring people back into CIA, but he was hiring them based on their gender identity and whether or not they were gay or straight. He wasn't hiring people back

straight. He wasn't hiring people back into CIA who were there for the mission.

He was hiring people into CIA who were there because they were in line with the domestic policies he was trying to promote. And that only lasted four years

promote. And that only lasted four years before Donald Trump took over again. And

then you had all these people in government who had only been two or three years at CIA and now they have another four years under Donald Trump and they all left again. But this time Donald Trump got very very smart with

CIA. He didn't give CIA a chance to make

CIA. He didn't give CIA a chance to make their own decision. He appointed

Director Radcliffe in charge of CIA. He

appointed um a DNI who he already knew was going to be in line with his policy.

So now he stacked the deck so that every leadership position in the entire stack of CIA understands that they have to take their orders from Donald Trump.

>> But today, do you think is CIA weaker than how it used to be under President Obama?

>> Yes, without a doubt. CIA will tell you it's weaker than how it used to be under President Obama. At the very least, the

President Obama. At the very least, the amount of talent that has left has weakened it. Second to the amount of

weakened it. Second to the amount of talent, the the trust that the executive branch has is not in CIA. It CIA is

supposed to be an agency of last resort.

>> Meaning everybody else has tried and when they all fail, it goes to CIA. So,

how do you know who to trust? How do you know what intelligence is real? I was

talking to a peer recently who estimated that CIA the the amount of information in the PDB that's coming from CIA is

less than 40%.

That more than 60% of the intelligence that's being shared in the PDB is actually coming from other countries that have partnered with the United States.

That's crazy. That means the president is being briefed and the intelligence infrastructure of the United States doesn't even know if it's real. They

just know that it's what they were told by RAW or ISI or the Nigerians or the Filipinos or the Australians. It's not

even ours.

>> These are the signs that you get weaker.

>> These are the signs that you get weaker.

It's why it's a very real thing. We've

been talking about it however long we've been talking.

The United States is not growing. It's

not increasing in size and scale and power. It's on a decline that it's

power. It's on a decline that it's trying to fix.

>> But the problem is the whole world knows we're on the decline. And guess how much the world wants to help us get better?

>> Zero. Bingo.

>> You you said that Mossad, they're reckless.

Why? What are they willing to do which other countries are not?

So >> is just like a very small country >> and very focused, >> very effective, very focused and their MOSAD is one of the best in the world.

>> One of the best in the world at what they do, which is very high-risk, very um

uh targeted operations against threats to the homeland. That's what MSAD does.

They don't do anything broader.

>> But why are they reckless? So the the term reckless is because they take risks. I I use the term reckless because

risks. I I use the term reckless because they take risks and the risks are not always commensurate with the risk that needs to be taken, right? Sometimes they

move fast or they move um in contrast or they do something that that seems important to them but costs them exponentially in comparison. Just look

at the the attacks that Netanyahu had on the Gaza Strip. Those were reckless. He

turned the whole world against Israel because of a reckless series of attacks.

He could have measured his attacks. He

could have reduced them. He could have found a different way to handle it, but he didn't. And that's that's the

he didn't. And that's that's the president of the country or the prime minister of the country. The

organization that does the prime minister's bidding isn't that much different. Right? When when Israel went

different. Right? When when Israel went across uh Iranian state boundaries to launch an incursion from drones, why did they do that? Did they do that

because they had to? Did they do it because it was the least risky option?

No. They did it because they wanted to send a secondary message.

>> They could have had a much safer operation had they launched from an allied country like Jordan or had they launched even from their own country.

They didn't have to cross into Iranian boundaries, but they did. Rank the

agencies for me. Oh, let's just be specific. Not just go around the world.

specific. Not just go around the world.

Rank. Rank these five for me. CIA.

>> Okay.

>> MSAD, MSS, RAW, ISI.

>> Uh, and then do you want them ranked on intelligence collection? Do you want

intelligence collection? Do you want them ranked on >> powerful?

>> Is the most powerful based on intelligence collection or is it based off of assassination? Or is it based off of being secret? How what do you want to know? because there's different they're

know? because there's different they're they're a different rank >> for different skills.

>> Okay, let's make assassination as a team.

>> Okay, >> then most powerful in all the aspects.

>> Okay, >> and then third would be just purely when it comes to country protection.

>> Okay, >> nothing else. Nothing to do with the world in the country.

>> So when it comes to protecting their own, CIA is at the top. MSAD is second, RAW is third, MSS is fourth, ISI is last. Protecting

their own.

>> ISI doesn't care about protecting their own.

>> They can't. Even if they cared about it, they can't because there's too many there's too many dangers inside Pakistan, right? So Pakistanis are

Pakistan, right? So Pakistanis are killed all the time by criminals, by by terrorists, by angry neighbors. It's a

it's a it's a rough place not like India when it comes to uh power and I'm going to define power as projecting power

right I think China is first because the MSS projects power worldwide the only other population that identifies as their own country before where they live

is the Chinese Indians are like that the Chinese are like that >> so they have people and eyes and spies everywhere

Second to them, I would say it's the United States and then I would say MSAD, then I would say RAW, then I would say

ISI again. So projecting power MSS.

ISI again. So projecting power MSS.

>> Yeah, MSS because they have incredible power. When it comes to assassinations,

power. When it comes to assassinations, MSAD is the top of the list. I would say ISI is the second on the list. I would

say RAW is the third on the list. MSS is

the fourth on the list. CIA is the fifth on the list and that's because CIA has so many challenges killing political figures which is the

definition of assassination. CIA just

they by it's so difficult that we just tell ourselves don't even try kill a military officer, kill a terrorist, kill somebody lower down because trying to kill a politician is a very difficult

thing to do because it it violates so many laws. That's why the whole Trump

many laws. That's why the whole Trump hunting Maduro thing is so unlikely. We

all talk about it, but we already know.

Donald Trump already knows it's it violates a dozen laws to try to kill Maduro. So, if he's going to do it, he's

Maduro. So, if he's going to do it, he's going to have to find a way around all those laws.

>> Do you think what happened recently in Nepal or Bangladesh? You know what happened?

>> The there was a bombing I want to say in >> Nepal when they where they threw the entire government.

>> Oh.

>> And the youth was on the road making government officials run for their life and they overturned the entire government. Do you know?

government. Do you know?

>> I know what you're talking about. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, do you think stuff like that is done by other countries?

>> I think stuff like that is influenced by other countries. And that's part of what

other countries. And that's part of what I'm saying with with why it's so much more effective to create chaos. Even if

you think about what happened in France with the parliament being >> being um uh dismantled, right? The

parliament was reset.

>> There are certain countries in the world who benefit from chaos in your country.

There are certain countries that benefit from chaos in France and certain countries that benefit from chaos in in Bangladesh.

>> So they are it's worth it to them to invest and create that chaos. It's worth

it for them to feed both sides. Hey,

here's one exist here's an existing conflict. Whatever that issue is, human

conflict. Whatever that issue is, human rights, labor, women's rights, you name it. We're going to we're going to fund

it. We're going to we're going to fund the side that says prohuman rights and we're going to fund that side that says anti-human rights. We're going to fund

anti-human rights. We're going to fund the side that says pro-gender identity and we're going to fund the side that says anti-gender identity because as long as we're putting more fuel on an existing fire, the fire burns bigger and

hotter and it's more likely to do greater damage. It's hard to create a

greater damage. It's hard to create a government collapse. It's easy to create

government collapse. It's easy to create enough government chaos that the people themselves make their own government collapse.

>> You used France right now and what happened there. And you have said

happened there. And you have said somewhere before that DGSSE of France is way more dangerous for America than China or Russia or anyone.

>> Correct. DGS is an ally.

>> This is we've already covered this.

Nobody is an ally. Everybody's an enemy to the United States. Okay. What what

DGSSE the reason DGSSE is so dangerous is because unlike many intelligence services DGSSE decades ago consolidated their

intelligence efforts to make them very technical so very technical intelligence and very wellunded they aren't broad like CIA is very broad

they're more focused kind of like RAW is very focused only RAW is focused on a country Pakistan DGSSE is focused on a specific specific type of intelligence collection technical and then from that

intelligence collection they are actually stealing American technologies, American capabilities, American uh IP, American plans and intentions that are

based on uh um commercial business engineering uh computer development and infrastructure that sort of thing. So,

it's not that they're a capable service like MSAD. They can go out and kill

like MSAD. They can go out and kill anybody, but they've consolidated their efforts, consolidated their talent, consolidated their money in a way where they steal from America where the whole world thinks that we're allies.

>> And they do it so well and so quietly that nobody realizes it's happening.

It's actually really funny because even as we're having this conversation, you know, people listening to us are going to say, "France, like >> exactly >> France? Aren't they the people who just

>> France? Aren't they the people who just put their hands up whenever somebody tries to invade France? They burning

their own their own cars in Paris right now or last week or whatever. France

isn't a threat, but when you talk to an intelligence professional from the United States, we all say the same thing. France. Every one of us, we

thing. France. Every one of us, we all hate France because we know this is what they do. We know that they they put on a smile when they show up and they shake your hand at an event and you already know they're trying to plant a

bug in your car. They're trying to plant a listening device. They're trying to strip the the memory off of your computer and your laptop. They're it's

we call it a smile They smile from the front and they you from behind.

You said Chinese government, they don't care about Chinese people as much as much as Indians. Right.

>> Right.

>> So they are ready to eliminate, terminate, neutralize, whatever word you want to use and they're okay with shrinking population but becoming the best. Then why would a Chinese go help

best. Then why would a Chinese go help them?

>> Because they know that the government is not anyway supporting them or is in favor to help them become more powerful >> because the the the government may not have a long-term plan to help you, but

they certainly have a short-term plan to hurt you if they want to. That's why.

>> So it's fear.

>> It's absolutely fear.

>> So it's not like more toward my love towards the nation or patriotism or national interest. It's just fear. I'll

national interest. It's just fear. I'll

be if they're too if I say no.

>> Exactly. Why do you think a Chinese person has built a life outside of China?

Because they had nationalism and they were proud of their country and they thought that they would have success there. No, they went to Canada to get

there. No, they went to Canada to get away from that They went to France. They went to Batswana. They went

France. They went to Batswana. They went

to Argentina to get away from that. So

when it comes all the way back to you and it tells you what you have to do, you will cooperate because you tried to get you or your parents or your

grandparents tried to get away and you succeeded. And that's why you honor your

succeeded. And that's why you honor your parents and why you honor your grandparents and why you honor your ch your Chinese heritage, your ethnicity that's been there for 5,000 years. But

that doesn't make it any easier to say no to the person who's sitting across from you who's telling you >> you will do this. Not to mention the fact many Chinese businesses survive off

of serving other Chinese people in their community. And it's very easy for the

community. And it's very easy for the Chinese to turn the whole community against you for the same reason. They

can just go around and say, "Hey, you know what? I'm from the mainland and we

know what? I'm from the mainland and we don't really like uh Chiong's restaurant anymore and you shouldn't go there anymore." Do you understand? And then

anymore." Do you understand? And then

all of a sudden they're going to be like, "Oh, Chong? Who's Chiong? I don't

even know who Chiong is. I don't even like Chinese food. I'm just going to go down the street to the Indian place. You

remember the Cold War, they talked about the Iron Curtain.

>> China has the same thing going on. It's

it's so hard for anybody in the world to know what China is actually doing because even inside China, their own leadership is fighting with each other and and arresting each other. Anytime

there's any suspicion of espionage, they don't even give somebody a trial. They

just lock them up. You might be a spy.

We're not going to take the chance.

You're locked up. And if you don't cooperate, we're just going to go ahead and lock up your kids and lock up your parents and lock up and we're going to erase your family name. So then, of course, everybody who's arrested

cooperates cuz they don't want their family to be penalized >> and there's no human rights, no consequences, no democracy, no government to be challenged. So they can

do whatever they want to do >> and that is their current strategy.

>> Does that scare you like as CIA? It's It

doesn't scare me as CIA because it won't work forever. It will change or it will

work forever. It will change or it will fall apart at some point. And I'm not CIA anymore. So, it's not my problem.

CIA anymore. So, it's not my problem.

>> You would.

>> When I was, China was my number one threat. But that's not just because of

threat. But that's not just because of my opinion. That's because the director

my opinion. That's because the director of national intelligence, the DNI, every year puts out an estimate of who the biggest threats are to the United

States. And since 2013, China has been

States. And since 2013, China has been the number one threat to the United States.

We are only just now talking about it, if we talk about it at all.

>> But the DNI has been watching that for a long time.

>> What are the top three threats for us?

>> Uh, we would have to pull it up. It's

somewhere. It's somewhere online. It's

probably I would say China plans and intentions is first. Counterterrorism is

most likely up there. fundamental Islam

because the DNI is controlled by the White House right now. I'm guessing that narot trafficking or or fentinol is probably also on that list.

>> There will be other things possibly Russia, possibly WMD.

Um but without a doubt, China is number one and I don't know exactly how they would rack the others.

>> You also said that every day there's a report of intelligence which gets submitted to the president. What is that report? That report is having that.

report? That report is having that.

>> Yeah, that report is called the president's daily brief, the PDB. And

the president's daily brief is a literal binder that's built every day. People uh

analysts and briefers, White House PDB briefers show up to work between 3:00 and 4:00 every morning, and then they consolidate intel from the previous day and overnight, and they rack a stack and

prioritize it based off of the president's interests and priorities.

And then they print these actual intelligence reports out and they put them in a document called the PDB and it's a beautiful document with a leather bound notebook and spiral bind. It's

like it's it's like the most fancy college or legal binder you can imagine.

And then somebody literally takes it to the White House and gives it to the president. And then when they give that

president. And then when they give that to the president, they usually have a team of four or 10 other analysts who are all professional briefers.

And their job is if the president has a question about one of the reports, they will brief the president on additional information related to that report. And

they do this every day, seven days a week about and they they categorize and and tailor the PDB to whatever the president's interested in.

>> CIA, can you actually leave?

>> You can actually leave because >> can you say no to something that you've been assigned?

>> Absolutely.

>> If president assigns you something that you can't say no to it, right?

>> You can always say no.

>> You can, >> but you will have consequences.

>> What consequences? You'll be fired. Your

career will be over. You won't get promoted. You'll be uh passed up for the

promoted. You'll be uh passed up for the next to you.

>> No.

>> Or to your life.

>> Because this is a this is such a great point and and this is what the movies don't understand. CIA officers are

don't understand. CIA officers are American citizens.

>> American citizens are protected by American laws.

That comes first, right? So all of the American rights, free speech, um you know, even the implied rights like the right to privacy, these all exist for

CIA officers. So this idea that CIA is

CIA officers. So this idea that CIA is going to kill one of its own because they step out of line, that's a movie thing. That's not how CIA actually works

thing. That's not how CIA actually works because CIA falls under the executive branch of government, which is held in checks and balance by the judicial branch of government. That's why people

can sue the CIA if they want to sue the CIA. And you you won't get hurt if

CIA. And you you won't get hurt if you're an American citizen because American citizens are protected by rights. So when you work for CIA, it's

rights. So when you work for CIA, it's very much like working in any other corporate environment. Yes, you sign a

corporate environment. Yes, you sign a contract and a secrecy agreement. And

yes, you have a civil contract in addition to your government contract. So

there are there are areas that you are exposed to more risk. That's why you That's why I won't get into specifics with you because I can be held

criminally liable and civily liable if I expose if I share documented secrets from CIA related to sources and methods.

So I can't share that with you. But my

American citizenship protects me from everything else. In the rest of the

everything else. In the rest of the world that doesn't exist just even in the UK. In the UK there is no freedom of

the UK. In the UK there is no freedom of speech.

that only exists in the United States.

So in the UK, if you're an MI6 officer, you actually sign a contract that says that MI6, the UK government, is going to take 50% of everything you own that you

earn related to your time at MI6. I

think it's 50%. It might even be more.

So that's why you don't see a bunch of MI6 officers on podcasts and you don't see MI6 officers writing books and you don't see MI6 officers out there celebrating their their career because any money they earn would be taken by

the government.

>> It's even worse in a place like Russia.

>> Does CIA like are they spying on their own in inside their own country or are they trying to collect information intelligence inside the country as well?

like because we were talking about raw and CIA what I understand what's there in the public India has IB which is

which works inside the country and raw works outside the country so they try to collect all the intelligence from the external world and IB does that inside the country >> right >> what does CIA do they have two different

wings or just one collecting from everywhere >> it's a it's a great point both CIA and RAW raw learned from MI6.

>> The British were there first and MI6 is an external intelligence collection agency. MI5 is an internal intelligence

agency. MI5 is an internal intelligence collection agency. So MI6 collects

collection agency. So MI6 collects worldwide. MI5 collects inside the UK.

worldwide. MI5 collects inside the UK.

CIA was built the same way. CIA collects

foreign intelligence. FBI collects

internal intelligence. FBI is RMI5. CIA

is RMI6. Which when you compare that to India, FBI is your IB collecting intelligence inside the country because citizens have rights, they have laws and

law enforcement like FBI, law enforcement like IB has to follow those individual rights.

>> CIA is allowed to break law internationally but not inside the United States. And the same thing is

United States. And the same thing is sounds like it's true for for RAW. RAW

can break international laws to protect the Indian continent, the Indian population, but they can't collect on their own internally. What they probably have to do is partner with the IB to

collect on any internal threats that might have a foreign connection. Did you

see that picture where Chinese head, Indian head, and Russian head, they all together standing hand in hand? Did you see that?

hand? Did you see that?

>> No. You didn't see that iconic picture like after this whole tariff thing was going on and President Trump was trying to technically bully certain nations in some sort of way at least what it looked

like Putin PM Modi and Xiing all three of them together hand like holding the hand India US India Russia China together

>> I mean I probably saw I probably saw it in a news article but I haven't it's not something that's >> you think temporarily if these three countries come together and align US is in trouble.

The US is already in trouble with the alignment that those countries have had and have established already.

If China if China can learn to to grow India and Russia and grow their

capability independently without seeing them as a threat, then the BRICS nations will become even more dangerous to the western nations than they are now. If

you just compare the bricks against the G7, the G7 is all declining and the bricks are all increasing.

The problem is China has to determine how strong it wants to let its allies become. It's because China does not do

become. It's because China does not do things original. China copies and right

things original. China copies and right now it's copying a model from the United States after World War II. After World

War II, the United States did not let any allies get strong. They made

everybody reliant on the United States.

They consolidated to make sure that countries were forced to trade with the United States, that countries were forced to accept the US dollar, that countries were forced to take American loans. China is going to try to do the

loans. China is going to try to do the same thing, they're trying to do the same thing in a different time. So, if

China can learn to do it better than we did it, we're in trouble.

>> But right now, as long as China is just trying to copy what we did, Russia and India know the game. They know how to avoid that. What is that one conspiracy

avoid that. What is that one conspiracy that you believe is true?

>> That's such a good question. I I don't believe in conspiracies.

I don't have one. If I have to reframe it, what's one thing that the world doesn't believe as much which you know is true?

>> I think I think the world I think the world doesn't believe

that we're going to use nuclear weapons.

I think the world believes that we're going to not use them.

>> I think we're going to use them.

>> I think we are going to use them. I just

don't think we're going to use them the way that people assume from history that they've been used.

>> Most people when they think of nuclear weapons, they think of a giant missile that's or a giant bomb that's going to get dropped from a plane on a major city center and it's going to be Hiroshima

all over again. Nagasaki all over again.

That's not what's going to happen. But

that's what people when they think about nuclear war, they still think about that. They still think 1980s, 1990s cold

that. They still think 1980s, 1990s cold war mutual assured destruction.

I think it's much more likely that we're going to see either a dirty nuke, something that a terrorist uses or something that a a criminal organization uses,

or we're going to use a tactical nuke. A

tactical nuke being a small nuclear warhead on a rocket, a small nuclear device that's delivered by the military, something strategic and or something

tactical and small, but still nuclear.

And when that happens, we're not going to know what the to do. Think about

the United States right now. The United

States has consolidated its many naval resources in the Caribbean.

Imagine if there's a nuclear capable shoulder rocket that's in Cuba, Venezuela,

Colombia, right? You name it, Jamaica,

Colombia, right? You name it, Jamaica, just one nuclear capable, just maybe something that that weighs 15 pounds,

right? But has an explosive potential of

right? But has an explosive potential of 5 kilotons, something small. If that's

launched into the ocean, it's international waters. If it explodes, it

international waters. If it explodes, it will destroy the entire carrier fleet.

All the planes, the carriers, three or four supply boats, every person that's there. But it happened in international

there. But it happened in international waters and it was a nuclear explosion.

That's why it was so big. What do we do then? Who do we hold accountable? Do we

then? Who do we hold accountable? Do we

blame the country that the that the missile was launched from? Do we blame the the transnational group, whether it was a cartel group or a terrorist group that launched it? And do we respond in

kind? Do we launch a nuclear tomahawk

kind? Do we launch a nuclear tomahawk into Jamaica? What do we do? I think

into Jamaica? What do we do? I think

we're very, very close to that moment.

>> Which country is probably going to do it?

>> I don't think it's going to be a country at all. I think it's going to be a

at all. I think it's going to be a transnational threat. It'll be a cartel.

transnational threat. It'll be a cartel.

It'll be some sort of uh rogue element from Ukraine or a rogue element from Russia or somebody who's smuggling

weapons through um through uh umh I just thought Bellarus Bellarouch or it'll be some sort of rogue element that smuggles through um Bellarus but

it's not going to be a clear-cut national threat. Even if it was Even if

national threat. Even if it was Even if it was Even if it was China launching a small tactical nuke from its shoreline

against the Taiwanese military vessel that's going through the straits, what are we going to do? Is that nuclear war? Is that not nuclear war? Do we

war? Is that not nuclear war? Do we

engage our nukes? Do we let Taiwan and China just trade tactical nuclear weapons in the straits of Taiwan? Which

country is going to be the safest if the world comes down to a position where so many small wars are breaking like you know we see what's happening with Russia

and Ukraine we saw what's happening with Israel there was problem between India and Pakistan where India destroyed their

entire military bases which was sort of giving birth to terrorism >> then it's happening like in different parts of the world there There are soft protests going on, there are hard

protests going on, the government's changing, there's bunch of chaos and if this accelerates resulting to let's say nuclear or other things, which country do you feel is the safest?

>> There's a few. New Zealand I think is the safest. If you can make your way to

the safest. If you can make your way to New Zealand, you're so far off the radar.

>> Is that where you're going to be after 2027?

>> Possibly. I'm not ruling it out, but New Zealand is a great location. Madagascar

is another great location. Switzerland.

If you're going to stay in the European landmass, Switzerland is a very good location. Um, I would also argue that a

location. Um, I would also argue that a place like southern Argentina, um, Argentina is going to get involved, but it's not the southern part of it is

going to stay relatively safe. Um, but

then there's also island chains, right?

Like there's islands in the uh even the Hawaiian islands will be safer than say mainland USA. Bali will be safer than

mainland USA. Bali will be safer than other parts of Indonesia. So there will be places that you can go where you can have food stability, physical security,

um modern modern medicine, modern capabilities.

>> But and why do you want to leave us by 2027?

>> There's a few different reasons. The the

biggest reason is that my priority is my family. I have two children. I have a

family. I have two children. I have a wonderful wife.

We have a business that's digital. We We

built our whole life to be mobile. And

my children are at an age now where they are picking up what it means to be American based off of pop culture in America. They're learning from friends.

America. They're learning from friends.

They're learning from from devices.

They're learning from movies and TV shows. That's where they're getting

shows. That's where they're getting their definition of what it means to be an American. And that's not the America

an American. And that's not the America that my wife and I served. The America

that we are now is a very confused place. It's heavily polarized. It's

place. It's heavily polarized. It's

economically depressed. It's It doesn't know whether it likes technology or doesn't like technology. It doesn't know who its friends are. It It doesn't know I mean our our America is killing

itself. And that's a that's a terrible

itself. And that's a that's a terrible version of America to grow up in. So if

I want to give my children the best, I need to give them an opportunity to go somewhere where their pride in being an American is still present, but they learn to be a global citizen. And there

are many countries in the world where they are pro-American, where they believe in American ideals. They believe

in ide American values. They the country itself still believes that America is the right world leader. If I move my children to a country like that, they're accepted and they celebrate their

American nationality while still learning to integrate into a global society. That's incredibly valuable.

society. That's incredibly valuable.

Most American children will never integrate into a foreign society. Most

American adults will never integrate into a foreign society. Inside the

United States, it's estimated that only one in every four people has a passport at all. And of the people who have a

at all. And of the people who have a passport, only one in four ever use their passport to go farther than Canada or Mexico.

That's incredible. That means less than 6% of Americans have ever gone further than Mexico or Canada. I don't want those to be my children. My children can

go somewhere else. We can spend four, 5, 10, 15 years. They can learn a foreign language. Maybe they marry a foreigner.

language. Maybe they marry a foreigner.

Maybe they marry an American who's also living in a foreign country. Our

business grows. We continue to invest ourselves in global citizenry while this chaos and confusion in the United States figures itself out. I

served in the military. I did my time there. My wife and I served undercover.

there. My wife and I served undercover.

We we committed our lives in defense of the nation.

We honestly feel like we've done what we can do to help the United States. And

now the United States has to figure this out for itself. M

>> we can still vote. We'll still pay our taxes. We'll still watch American comedy

taxes. We'll still watch American comedy shows. We'll still watch American

shows. We'll still watch American movies. But there's no reason to make

movies. But there's no reason to make America's current confusion our children's problem. Instead, we can

children's problem. Instead, we can raise them to adulthood somewhere else and then they can come back and be part of the solution if that's what they choose. But

choose. But >> why do you feel America is falling?

>> Why do I feel like it's falling?

the it's impossible to look at the metrics and not see that it's falling.

the the divide in how we vote, the participation in elections, the value of the US dollar, the the expense of of

daily life, the decline of the middle class, the volatility in the market, the contention in the legislation, the fact that we spend as much time where

politicians are attacking other politicians rather than trying to help the American people. There's I mean you can just count the ways measurable ways

that America is declining right now. You

can't ignore it.

>> Everybody's trying everybody's hoping that it will be fixed. But we all recognize to a certain extent that we're powerless to fix it except in the vote that we cast. But even with that, you

still have a huge population in the United States who believes that their votes don't count.

>> Yeah.

>> They believe that elections are rigged.

Holy man. I would challenge that the vast majority of parents in the United States hear me and agree with me that if they could take their children

somewhere else, they would. That if they could raise their children in a country that was pro-American and safe and give their kids opportunities beyond what they would have in the United States, they would. It's only the people without

they would. It's only the people without children or the people with grown children or the people who are just too selfish to admit that their children could have a better life. Those are the

only people who listen to me and think I'm a coward or I'm trying to escape or I'm not and I'm not nationalistic or whatever else. Like I don't want America

whatever else. Like I don't want America to die, but what I want America gets to choose what it does for itself.

Which if you had this is hypothetical situation. If you had to choose a leader

situation. If you had to choose a leader according to you who can be president and save America, who would it be?

That's funny. You know I you know it's not well thought out because I feel like your question is kind of a fun question.

I would argue that what we need right now is a Winston Churchill. What we need right now really >> is is somebody who is incredibly

charismatic, somebody who can motivate both sides, somebody who can

explain to us what the threat really is.

Because right now in the United States, honestly, we think that the threat is the other political party.

That's we're so distracted. We honestly

think that the Dems are the problem or the Republicans are the problem. We

don't even see the rest of the world.

>> Where Churchill was able to take all of Great Britain, all of the United Kingdom, and say, "Here is our enemy.

Our enemy is Hitler and the rise of the Nazi party." And that that's it. He was

Nazi party." And that that's it. He was

able to to isolate the threat. And as

the country was burning down, he kept them together. As the country was being

them together. As the country was being bombed, as the United Kingdom was losing the war, he was able to inspire a population to keep going and keep

fighting.

That's a little bit of what we need right now is somebody who has that kind of glue, that kind of charisma, that kind of power, that kind of presence.

Who's like your choice out of everyone?

Even like in the worst case scenario, you have to choose one.

>> If I had to pick one person that fits that description right now, it would be Nikki Haley. Nikki Haley is the closest

Nikki Haley. Nikki Haley is the closest thing that we have to a politician who could potentially reunite us and move us forward on a shared objective. And even then, like

shared objective. And even then, like when you talk about Winston Churchill, Nikki Haley is in many ways the modern female version of a Church Hill because she will say it like it is. She will not

sugarcoat it. She takes conflict on

sugarcoat it. She takes conflict on headon. She did it in 2024. I'm sure

headon. She did it in 2024. I'm sure

that she would do it in 2028.

She was She's female. She's younger.

She's got all like the the right hallmarks to be accepted by the Democrats. She's got all the right uh

Democrats. She's got all the right uh accolades to be accepted by the Republicans. So, possibly she could do

Republicans. So, possibly she could do it. But she's still been groomed. She's

it. But she's still been groomed. She's

still a groomed Republican from South Carolina, which is a very, very red state.

>> What's that Falcon story?

>> Tell me that there was a code name for the country Falcon.

>> Um, my wife and I were successful independently at CIA. She was very successful. I was moderately successful.

successful. I was moderately successful.

But CIA discovered from an allied country that they had a mole, that there was a mole inside CIA, somebody working against CIA from within. And CIA itself

didn't know who that person was because it was a foreign ally who told us about the mole. So what CIA decided to do was

the mole. So what CIA decided to do was create a a team of people or several teams of people who would create new operations with the idea being that

those new operations would bait the mole into showing himself or herself. My wife

and I were two of the people that were chosen to create new operations, but they never told us that we were also supposed to be bait. They only told us that we were supposed to start new

operations. So they deployed us to a

operations. So they deployed us to a country in the world that wasn't the United States that we call Wolf. And

Wolf was a very very cool place for us because it was developing. It was

developing world. It was uh there weren't a lot of regulations. There

weren't a lot of rules. It was kind of a fun exciting like I use the word dirty not because it was actually dirty but like you could get away with dirty stuff.

And from Wolf, we built new operations that were built to target another country called Falcon. The reason we were targeting Falcon was because we

were directed against Falcon by CIA. And

it turns out that the mole inside CIA was a mole that was working for this country called Falcon. CIA forced us to use these names for countries like Wolf and Falcon. And there's some other

and Falcon. And there's some other countries in the book that we talk about too where we do other operations. But it

can it can be a little bit confusing sounding. But if you just think of the

sounding. But if you just think of the United States as one country, Wolf as the country where my wife and I were living and Falcon was the country that we were operating against, that's how

you have a way of understanding overall the story. So as we're building these

the story. So as we're building these operations against Falcon, we're we're having incredible success and we're growing. And I start to travel into

growing. And I start to travel into Falcon myself so that I can start laying the foundation for more officers to do more operations inside Falcon. And on

one of those operations into Falcon, I fall under surveillance. And that's the first kind of hint to the entire team that I may have been discovered by

Falcon intelligence. And if I was

Falcon intelligence. And if I was discovered by Falcon intelligence, then we have to wonder whether or not the mole was the one that told Falcon about

me. So that's the book. The book is all

me. So that's the book. The book is all about how we built these operations in detail. How we carried out the

detail. How we carried out the tradecraftraft, how we built the operations, who we targeted, how we targeted them. It's meant to be a memoir

targeted them. It's meant to be a memoir that is also very instructional in terms of how real world espionage works. And

then of course thankfully even though I was under surveillance I was able to escape Falcon and come out be back be reunited with my wife live to tell the

story but also share how we reacted when I fell under surveillance. what we did after Falcon

surveillance. what we did after Falcon discovered me and how it was that a CIA officer can't escape from a hostile country and how it is that that um the

CIA responds when somebody's been nearly captured in a foreign country. That that

has that is the story of Shadow Cell and and we're very proud of it. I encourage

everybody who's listening right now to go out and buy it and read it and love it and give us your feedback. Um it's

just been it's been an amazing blessing and amazing journey to be able to write the story and share it with people like you. Was there any point where you felt

you. Was there any point where you felt scared that you you might die?

>> Absolutely. When I was under surveillance, when you're under surveillance in a foreign country in an alias identity, everything is illegal. It's not

>> where you're absolutely taught like this is it.

>> Um when the moment that you're taught to essentially give in, you're never taught to give up.

>> You're taught something that's called artificial compliance. Artificial

artificial compliance. Artificial compliance is what you do when you know that your survivability

is increased by cooperation rather than conflict. So imagine if you're uh if

conflict. So imagine if you're uh if you're pulled over by a police officer, you could argue and fight with the police officer, but the chances are you're not going to go home.

>> You're going to go to the police station. So we're taught in a situation

station. So we're taught in a situation like that that you use something called artificial compliance. You don't want to

artificial compliance. You don't want to cooperate with the police officer, but you understand that if you cooperate, they'll probably let you go home. So,

what you really want to do is fight, but what you choose to do artificially is comply. So, we're taught that at the

comply. So, we're taught that at the moment where artificial compliance increases your survivability, that's what you're supposed to do. So for us

that that example is if you are captured, if you're outnumbered and you are physically apprehended, meaning you're outnumbered by people, they have their hands on you and you have

essentially lost control of your own hands. They've handcuffed you, they've

hands. They've handcuffed you, they've put your hands behind your back, they've pinned you down, they've put you in some kind of stress position. If you are in that position, artificial compliance is

your fastest road to survivability. You

can fight up until that moment. You can

try to run up until that moment, but once that happens, you have to comply artificially. And the reason you do that

artificially. And the reason you do that is to reserve and conserve your resources, your mental capacity, and you're trying to essentially uh distract

>> your aggressors so they believe that you're giving up.

If you do that over time, you'll find an opportunity to try to escape again. So

last question because I'm from India and you have talked about how India has made some smart moves and I want to end it on that note because I

want to know about it. What's the

smartest thing which India has done over the years or is doing right now which you feel is really intelligent?

>> It was so smart when India kept supporting Russia in the face of sanctions from the west.

explain it.

>> It was just an incredibly smart move because what happened was because because the West sanctioned Russia, Russia became isolated. That isolation

put stress on Russia as a as a nation, as an economy, as a future world leader.

India was already in a partnership, a commercial partnership called the bricks with Russia before the sanctions hit.

So India was forced to decide do we do what the United States tells us to do and cut off this economic partner that we have committed to or do we continue

to support the economic partner and face the frustration or the anger of the west.

Well, India understands that the long-term benefit is most likely in a regional economic cooperative group

rather than this continued reliance on the G7 western powers.

So, India chose to support Russia in the face of American frustration. And since

then, because if you recall, that happened very early in the war. That

happened early in a war that analysts predicted would be fast and short. That

happened early on when people were still saying that Putin was going to be undermined from within, that he had brain cancer, that he was he he wasn't going to survive, he wasn't going to last, that his own oligarchs would turn

against him. Right? Well, now here we

against him. Right? Well, now here we are four years later, four years later, and none of those things happened. and

Russia's economy has rebounded and Ukraine has continued to weaken and the west has distanced itself from Ukraine and a complete change in policy on the

US from um from the house all the way up to the presidency. So India doubled down on its previous existing economic commitment to the bricks and as a result

of that they looked good in the moment they looked good in the long run and they have continued to grow economically because of that because by showing

Russia that they could be relied on.

They also sent a message to China and Brazil and Saudi Arabia and everybody else in the bricks that India is reliable that India will be here as long

as this cooperative exists. And the

reason that's so smart is because India gets to benefit from everybody else's isolation. That isolation increases the

isolation. That isolation increases the value of Indian products. It increases

the value of Indian goods. It increases

the reliance on India. But also if India needs to call in a favor in the future that those geographical b those geographical peers are more likely to

say yes where if India would have allied itself with the west they would have all turned India down.

>> Yeah. But if you look back history India has always been friends with Russia.

>> Russia supported India. India supported

Russia. So I don't think it was a move against G7 or a temporary movement to just show that we are reliable. It was

just standing up for somebody who has stood who's helped us over the years.

>> Regardless that doesn't make it any less of a smart move, >> right? There was question what they

>> right? There was question what they would do. There was incredible pressure

would do. There was incredible pressure for them not to support Russia. There

has continually been pressure for them to abandon Russia.

>> I know which is going on which is the case right now. But India has in this whole thing we have a clear stand and the stand is national interest over anything.

>> If you're going to get oil from someone at a cheaper price, we will buy. If there's a friend who has

buy. If there's a friend who has supported us, we'll support them. We

don't care. And coming back to this point because it has been four years and you said initially US put sanctions on everybody and now four years they're

it's not on the priority list to support Ukraine anymore. Don't you think that's

Ukraine anymore. Don't you think that's west hypocrisy?

>> Absolutely that's western hypocrisy.

>> US is like absolute hypocrite at this point where they said hey we will support you and now they're like hey it has costed us too much. It's long

enough. We don't care about you anymore.

Bye. Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly the problem with the United States and that's the problem that is cons that is also contributing to the decline of the United States. I I mean I told you I

United States. I I mean I told you I told you earlier that we can make a list of all the points that show how we're on the decline. Hypocrisy is one of those

the decline. Hypocrisy is one of those lists. We said we would do this, we

lists. We said we would do this, we didn't do it. We said we would do that, we didn't do it. We said we would protect this, we didn't protect that.

There's an incredible list, right? Think

about just the fact that we seized Russian assets in American banks.

What does that tell India? How safe is your money in an American bank? Not very

safe. We'll seize it at any time. I've

got one story that I want to share with you. I've got one story and I I don't

you. I've got one story and I I don't know enough about India to know uh you know how the different states view each other or how the different uh

subcultures view each other. But here's

something I've never told anybody and I don't even think the people I'm going to tell you about even know it's true. When

I first started my speaking appearance podcast career, when I left CIA and I decided to launch my

own business, the first group that ever supported me ever were Indians.

I was living in Tampa and I was in a a public speaking group called Toastmasters and there are many Indians in the United States that also participate in Toastmasters and I gave a speech one day at Toastmasters. It was a

disaster. It was totally humiliating. It

disaster. It was totally humiliating. It

was all a terrible speech but there was a Indian man there who approached me and said we have to stick together brother and I was confused in the moment. I was

like I don't I don't understand. He's

like you and me we're the same. And I

was like, "No, I'm I'm Mexican, but I can understand if you think that I'm Indian." He's like, "No, you have black

Indian." He's like, "No, you have black hair. I have black hair, and inside the

hair. I have black hair, and inside the United States, nobody has black hair, so we we will stick together." And he became a good friend of mine through

multiple uh Toastmasters events. It turns out he was the head of the Mallayali Association of Tampa, a group that comes

from Carerala. They had a big annual

from Carerala. They had a big annual event and he came to me and he was like, I would like you to be our speaker for the big annual events. It's just a it's just a community group, right? But I had

never done anything with the Indian culture, with Indian people. I had never done anything like that. And here's this guy who saw me make an idiot of myself on a stage who said, "I think that you would be a great speaker someday and I would love for you to speak to our

group." He's like, "The Mallay Ali

group." He's like, "The Mallay Ali Association of Tampa is very focused on children and very focused on community."

He gave me an address and and I put together a speech and then I went there and it was one of the most amazing experiences I have ever had. Children

dressed in traditional Indian garb.

Addition families dressed in traditional garb. It was hosted on this this

garb. It was hosted on this this beautiful campus of uh like a temple and there were flowers and fresh and it was just amazing. and they did a whole stage

just amazing. and they did a whole stage performance of of classic Carerala uh fairy tales or something. It was just amazing. And I gave my speech and my

amazing. And I gave my speech and my speech really just sounded like this was such an amazing experience. Thank you

all for believing in me and everything else. And that was how it all started

else. And that was how it all started because on that stage in front of those 300 or 400 mali

I was I realized how much I loved talking on a stage because it's being on a stage in front of 15 people. Everybody

can do that. But being on a stage in front of a few hundred people is a very different feeling.

And uh I'll I'll try to find the pictures and send them to you. The

pictures that I took with the kids and the and the women and the men and and everybody just treated me just incredible. And it was only because I

incredible. And it was only because I had black hair and I learned so much about unity and community that's ethnically based and that's not something we celebrate here in the

United States, but it was a really refreshing feeling. And then from that

refreshing feeling. And then from that moment on, it was the Molly Ali, the group in Tampa that kept suggesting me and kept introducing me and connecting me to other people and other

opportunities. I had nothing to give

opportunities. I had nothing to give them, but they just kept doing it. And

eventually they introduced me to a podcaster and that podcaster was big enough to introduce me to another podcaster. And

now in 2026, that happened in 2018.

>> Wow.

>> And now in 2026, I've gone viral on the internet. I'm I run a multi-million

internet. I'm I run a multi-million dollar company and I know that a huge chunk of my success is tied to a group of Indians from Carerala who moved to

Tampa to try to make a better life for themselves and included me in their family.

>> Wow. It's so good to hear that. It's

I'm so blessed and grateful that I come from that community. I come from the kind of people who we have in India

who go out of their way and support people. Um it just I have nothing to do

people. Um it just I have nothing to do with it but just the fact that I'm one of them it makes me so proud of myself right now.

I'm so happy that somebody did that to you because there's so many of them who did that to me as well. M

>> and I'm sure if somebody's watching this and if they're thinking of doing it to somebody, please do it because because of you and because of your gesture, we

get nuggets like him. We get people who are gems like you who are telling stories all around the world. Thank you

so much and thank you to you as well.

>> Thank you, sir. And thank you for everything that you do uh for having me on here and uh I can't wait to talk to you again.

>> It was pleasure. you're coming to India and then we're going to do it. We're

going to do round two in my studio where we'll have even more intense conversation. Thank you for doing this.

conversation. Thank you for doing this.

Tell me, you said any intelligence can get to you if they want to get to you.

And I'm assuming all these tricks and thousand more they would do it and they must be doing it every day with people like who have like classified

information. Fortunately, not me.

information. Fortunately, not me.

Just putting it out there for the record.

probably you, not me.

>> And now us.

>> Not us. Okay, that just not none of us.

Thank you so much for watching this podcast till the end. Please let us know in the comments what all did we do right so that we can improve and keep doing that better and what all did we do wrong

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