An Exclusive Interview With The Man Who Spent 5 Years Studying Palantir's Alex Karp

All right. Hello everybody. Welcome back

to the channel. I'm here today with a very very special guest here with Michael Steinberger to discuss the philosopher in the valley, his latest book. Michael, thanks for being here.

book. Michael, thanks for being here.

>> It's, a, pleasure, to, be, with, you.

>> This, is, uh, going, to, be, a, really, exciting conversation because I have been a fan of Palter for a long time. I've been

intrigued by the company. A lot of my audience has obviously cared about the company. the company's developed a

company. the company's developed a pretty significant retail shareholder base and you essentially did a book on the life of Karp but also the story of Palunteer and so I think there's a lot

of different nuances to get into in terms of how this book even came to be and and why you chose to write about this subject. I want to start with this

this subject. I want to start with this question to get things rolling. uh you

served as a wine columnist for the internet magazine Slate from 2002 to 2011.

And you know the interesting thing about wine, I'm not I'm not the biggest wine drinker, but from from my friends who do drink wine, there's a certain spiritual way that people like to drink and

analyze and smell and there's all this nuance to the concept of wine. uh you

wrote a book about someone who is very enigmatic and one could argue you know there's a lot of psychoanalysis that comes to understand the the philosopher in the valley that is Alex Karp. Do you

think your your your 10 years of writing about wine kind of influenced how you approached writing about Alex Karp?

>> It's, a, great, question, and, I, hadn't actually thought of that. you know, it's interesting. He he brings up my

interesting. He he brings up my background with wine writing um quite often. In fact, you know, he says, you

often. In fact, you know, he says, you know, you know, he's made points that you know, it's just like, you know talking about, you know, he'll reference, he'll say a grape, and you know, he, you know, said, you know, if you don't like, even if you don't like

this particular grape, you seem able to write about it quite fairly. And I once wrote a piece expressing my my disdain for Sony and Blanc. I don't think Svin Blanc fans would think that piece was

particularly fair. But nevertheless

particularly fair. But nevertheless Karp thought, you know, you know, I was able to write about things with with a certain even-handedness, you know putting my my feelings aside, you know

it's as for whether writing about wine was good preparation for this, you know maybe I mean, it's it's a wine is a complicated subject. Um, you know, there

complicated subject. Um, you know, there are a lot of dimensions to it. You're

also dealing with something, you know where, you know, people have strong feelings. It's a matter of matters of

feelings. It's a matter of matters of personal taste.

>> And, maybe, in, some, some, way, that, I, didn't quite understand, there was decent preparation for for writing some about someone as complex

um and different as Karp. Um he is he's something different um on the global business scene and um there are dimensions to him that you perhaps don't

find in other more standard issues CEOs.

So I think I think there's something to it.

>> Yeah., I, mean,, I, think, one, of the, reasons why a lot of retail investors became intrigued with Karp is because of how interesting he was, even when the company stock price was not performing.

A lot of people like to listen to what he had to say. And one of the sort of major themes in your book is that uh you noticed Karp has a way to get other people to listen to him even if they don't agree with him. And that I think is one of the, you know, the hardest

things for any leader to be able to establish the ability to get people to care about what they have to say because it forces some level of, hey, this person matters. Maybe we should take

person matters. Maybe we should take them seriously. in the business world

them seriously. in the business world you know, that could result in potentially billions and billions of dollars of revenue. Um, le let's get into how you and Karp originally met.

So, one of the main characters I would say of the book is Hford College where you both actually went to the same class. There's only about 1500 students

class. There's only about 1500 students there, but you didn't end up reconnecting until decades later. Can

you kind of tell the story of of how you got to know >> Well,, it's, it's, even, more, than, that., We

went to this small liberal arts school outside of Philadelphia. Um, you know so, you know, you know, class size of fewer than 400 people. We spent four years there and never once exchanged a word.

>> Wow.

>> That's, that's, a, kind, of, achievement, in itself. I I have no idea how that

itself. I I have no idea how that happened. Um, you know, I I I think he

happened. Um, you know, I I I think he was, you know, he he downplays how hard he worked there, but I think he worked pretty hard. I am quite certain the

pretty hard. I am quite certain the library saw more of him than it saw of me, which perhaps goes some way to explaining how he ended up a billionaire and I didn't.

But um you know it's very strange because you know for instance my wife went to Binmar College and Hford and Binmar are very close. They're like

brother and sister school. Hford's fully

co-ed. It turned co it went fully co-ed in 1980. So a few years before we got

in 1980. So a few years before we got there >> you, know, they, still, keep, very, close ties. My wife knew him. Um we had mutual

ties. My wife knew him. Um we had mutual friends. Somehow he and I just never uh

friends. Somehow he and I just never uh connect never exchanged a word there.

And so cut to all these years later. Um

I had become aware of Palunteer and had become aware of its CEO and oh he was in my class at Hford. Interesting. And I I if I I'd be lying if I said when I saw pictures of him that I was like oh I

remember that guy because that's just not true. Anyway, so I had become a

not true. Anyway, so I had become a writer for the New York Times magazine.

I had moved on from wine and started writing um about non-wine subjects for the New York Times magazine. And you

know I thought you know Palanteer would be a really compelling story and you know it's important that we did not have any prior relationship because you know the magazine would not have assigned it because that would have been a conflict of interest >> right

>> we, met, for, the, first, time, in, 2019, um, you know off thereord conversation just you know where you know he was kind of sizing me up and deciding whether he wanted to cooperate on a magazine

feature and um you know we we we reminisced a bit about old times we never, shared, and, um, you, and, and and, and from that, you know, he agreed to to cooperate on the story for the magazine

and and I reported that story uh through n through through 2019 and into 2020. It

appeared in um it was published in 2020 a few weeks after Palanteer went public right? Um

right? Um >> and, then,, you, know,, it, was, a, it, was, a pretty comprehensive article. It was

9,000 words, which is a lot of words. Um

but as comprehensive as it was, it felt like there was still a lot more to say.

Um, you know, I had spent a lot of time with him reporting the story, was, you know, very intrigued by him. I thought

there was more to his story and more to the Palunteer story. And so about a year after the article came out, I I talked to him about the possibility of doing a

book. Um, I thought there was a timely

book. Um, I thought there was a timely and important book to be written about Palunteer and uh went up to see him at you know, his place in New Hampshire and we talked about it and and he was on

board with it. So that's kind of how this this whole thing happened. And um

you know he agreed to cooperate and um yeah I think you know he cooperated for a couple different reasons. Um he

assumed at that point that a book would be written about Palanteer and he thought it made sense to cooperate with a writer. He thought the Times magazine

a writer. He thought the Times magazine story was fair. He thought it would a good job of capturing who he was and how he thought about the world. So it made

sense to cooperate with someone he had had worked with um before and and I think the other factor that you know interested, him, in, in in, having, a, book

written was because look at he taken the company public and palter was a success story and you know he wanted to be recognized as the as as the driving force behind that success because as you

know as someone who's followed the company as closely as you have you know even to this day you see a lot of articles the head you the headline in stories about Palanteer was Peter Teal's

Palanteer and and that was absolutely just like it it was it was almost like a tick during the um you know the first Trump presidency almost every article you know was Teal's Palanteer even

though Peter never had any involvement with the day-to-day uh workings of Palunteer uh chairman of the board but it was Alex it was Karp who was running the company and um you know I think he

wanted it was that wasn't a source of resentment for Karp but I think he wanted um you he wanted to be recognized as the person who had made this who built this company into the success

story that had become he wanted a bit of the main character energy. Uh there's a lot to dive into in terms of his past life but but at a high level why do you think Karp wanted to be recognized as

the main character outside of the obvious you know he's the CEO he's responsible for the company actually getting to where it is on a day but was was there something deeper for why he wanted to be seen as that guy because

now he objectively is that guy.

>> Yeah., Yeah., Yeah., No,, I, think, it's, Yeah.

Listen, um, you can't be lacking in self- reggard when you are in a position like this and and I think certainly taking this company public having a

successful public listing was a huge huge thing and then and it had taken a long time to get to that point and and uh I think you know just pure and I

don't want to say it's ego but I think you know he wanted to be you know have his success acknowledged um he felt that there was, you know his, you know, his path to Silicon

Valley was an very improbable one. So I

think, you know, he he recognized certainly that he had a very interesting story and and and you know, Palanteer was just a very unlikely success in some ways.

And >> so, I, I, I, think, he, just, want, you, know, was eager to see that story told. He

knew, it, was, going to, be, told,, you, know, in book form by someone at some time.

and and so I happened to show up on his doorstep in, you know, in New Hampshire and said, "Hey, I would like to to take this on and and he thought about it and then and and agreed to cooperate."

>> Do, you, think, if, you, guys, didn't, go, to the same school, he would have he would have not cooperated?

>> That's, a, good, question., Um,, you, know,, I think, um, listen, I think the Havford connection, um, they they weren't doing

a lot of press back in 2019. Um, so I think you know the Havford connection I don't know this to be I don't know this is absolutely the case but I think the H connection intrigued him enough that he

was willing to take a meeting with me to discuss about whether he want you the story I was interested in doing for the magazine. I think the Hford connection

magazine. I think the Hford connection helped in that regard. Um I don't think it had anything to do with the book. Um

though Habford figures very prominently in the book for reasons that Habford may not entirely love but I think um I I don't think it had much to do with the book but it may have had something to do

with his willingness to entertain the possibility of cooperating on the Times magazine story.

>> Right., Okay., So, let's, uh, let's, dive deeper into Alex Karp and his early life and uh then we'll get into the transition to Palunteer. So, there's two elements of the book that you highlighted pretty well, which was his

biracial identity >> and, his, learning, disability,, which, was dyslexia. I I want to start with the

dyslexia. I I want to start with the biracial identity, and then we'll work our way towards the dyslexia. Uh, a lot of people in the Palunteer community that I speak to don't even know that Karp is half black.

>> Yeah.

>> Many, of, them, don't, even, know, he's Jewish. And so, like, there's a variety

Jewish. And so, like, there's a variety of nuance to the to the to the to the concept of being interracial in and of itself. So, and then and then on top of

itself. So, and then and then on top of that, you know, adding the Jewish component to it from a religious perspective. What is your perspective on

perspective. What is your perspective on how Karp thought of himself being biracial? And how do you think that

biracial? And how do you think that identity either propelled him or provided him a disadvantage over the course of his career?

>> You, know,, I, would, say, this., I, think,, you know, I think, yeah, he understood early on that, you know, being biracial, being

Jewish, being severely dyslexic, um were not advantages in life. That's, you

know, there were strikes against him.

Um, you know, racism was certainly a factor. though he never he says he never

factor. though he never he says he never experienced racism itself. He he he certainly knew that it was a a major factor in American life and just you know just part of the you know the world

in which he lived and certainly um anti-semitism was a was a a significant for has been a significant force throughout history. So he kind of

throughout history. So he kind of understood early on that he had some strikes against him as he perceived it and and and um I would say you know that

um you know with Palanteer um you know I think the thing you have to understand with him and and and maybe it doesn't come across when it's on television or in his public pronouncements but I think

he's had a sense of vulnerability from a quite young age um because of his identity um didn't consider burden but just understood that you know um you

know racism anti-semitism were factors in in life were were were things he might face in life and I think there was a sense of vulnerability that has stuck

with him to the present day and and you know with you know with Palunteer I do think part of the motivation for getting involved with this company for for

seeing this company through to the success was in some sense he was making the world safe for Alex carp in his mind, >> right?

>> I, think, that, is, a, you, know, and, and, then you know it's a it's a it's a strange thing to say now about a guy who you know is a multi-billionaire has a big security detail. It's like what does he

security detail. It's like what does he have to fear? But I think that sense of vulnerability has stuck with him. um it

propels a lot of the decision, you know a lot of the decision-making of Palanteer, the fear that sort of, you know, that that he has always that he's always had and and you know, so I think you know, this is, you know, this is

kind of the way, you know, one might think about, you know, his his biracial background and his, you know, his identity that, you know, it is it is integral to what Palanteer became in a

sense. There is a quote in the book uh

sense. There is a quote in the book uh from Karp saying to his brother that he focused more on the the the family's blackness and Karp focused less on it.

Why do you think Karp focused less on it?

>> It's, a, great, question., Now,, you, know,, as a his brother um who gave me a lot of time was very very generous with his time, and, and and, his, thoughts, and, his recollections and and and you know

really, you know, laid out the family history. Um you he said that in high

history. Um you he said that in high school and in college and and college friends um people at Hford who knew him unlike me um substantiated this you know

he very much identified with his black heritage. Um you know his brother said

heritage. Um you know his brother said in high school he was a young black man and and that continued through Hford. He

was you know very involved with black student organization there. Um, in fact um, our senior year, he helped organize an anti-racism conference that was held

at Yale University, I believe, um, and was quoted in in the Detroit Free Press which did a big, um, article not long thereafter about racism on college campuses, and he's talking about how

prevalent racism is and and so forth.

So, you know, um it is interesting that you know, he gets to Palunteer and it's not until many years after the company started that he told anyone at the company that his mother was black.

>> And, as, you, said,, I, mean,, he, tells, his brother at, you know, some point, you know, this is, you know, well into, you know, you know, he's now with Pounder Pound Company success and they have a conversation and then, you know, he said

to his brother, you you know, you've you've dialed up the blackness and I've dialed it back. Um I did not I I did not I do not offer any speculation in the

book about why that is. Um you know I I really felt you know because this is you know this is kind of fraught uh terrain.

Um you know it's matters of identity and and how you think about these things and and you know I was very content to put this information in there and to let the

reader draw his or her own conclusion.

Well, I I do think there is one part of the book where Kart mentions to you in in your conversations that he is not going through the same types of pain

that a full 100% you could say black man is going through, not biracial. Uh, and

there's a lot of different nuance to that just in terms of how the world perceives Karp or how the world doesn't perceive Karp. And on top of that, I

perceive Karp. And on top of that, I mean, based on how Karp has evolved over the years, even though I think this has been pretty true since since he was a a a student, uh, meritocracy is what he

cares about a lot more than the sort of diversity, equity, inclusion standpoint.

Do you think because of that he didn't want to be treated as someone better or worse because of his blackness, which is why he focused on just being the best versus being the black best? Well, I

mean, he, you know, listen, I mean he's, you know, he um, you know, he feels that, you know, um, you that he he doesn't feel that he would be accepted by the black community as one of their

own. I think that is one issue that, you

own. I think that is one issue that, you know, and and and his experience has been different. I mean, he has said he

been different. I mean, he has said he says he has never felt the sting of racism. Yes. So it it would be it would

racism. Yes. So it it would be it would be um you know fraudulent of him to claim that he's had this or that he's experienced life the way you know you

know you know other black people have experienced life. He just he says that's

experienced life. He just he says that's not been my experience and he you know he doesn't disavow in any way um his black heritage. um he says he's proud of

black heritage. um he says he's proud of it. Um and and you know that it's

it. Um and and you know that it's important to him, but he also you know feels that you know if he went out there and and said you know I'm black and and

and, and and you know um put that at the center of his identity that you the black community would not accept it that it would be offensive to people. And so

this is this is his explanation um you know for why he's you know he's not centering it in his life in the way that you know his Jewishness is now very much center. It's it's you know it's

center. It's it's you know it's different, and, and, and and, you, know, he you know these are the reasons he these are the reasons he offers and you as I said um you know this is you know this

is identity is is is you know particularly in you know in this particular moment it's it's a fraught topic, and, and and, you, know, people, are going to draw their own conclusions and I'm I'm really interested to see how

readers react to this and what they make of it and what they make of his his trajectory and and you know the fact that you know his brother says you know in high school and in college he was a young black man and and now it's, you

know, he's he he, you know, it's the Jewish side that he emphasizes and the Jewish side that clearly um matters, you know, more to him

>> right?, Uh, learning, disability,, how, do

>> right?, Uh, learning, disability,, how, do you think the I mean, this guy got a PhD in neocclassical theory while having dyslexia. I mean, h how did your

dyslexia. I mean, h how did your conversations around that learning disability with Karp accentuate how you think of him as a entrepreneur, leader ultimately founder? Well, he says, you

ultimately founder? Well, he says, you know, he you know, picking up from, you know, the the conversation about identity. I mean, he says, look at, you

identity. I mean, he says, look at, you know, dyslexia was the real hurdle in his life, not racism. He never

experienced racism. Dyslexia was the real hurdle. Um, and as he puts it, he

real hurdle. Um, and as he puts it, he you know, he's got a very colorful way of expressing himself. He, you know, he said, "It [ __ ] me, but gave me wings to fly."

to fly." And um you know what was very interesting and I did not know this but you know um there have been studies and and there have been articles written um

you a disproportionate number of um CEOs and and and successful entrepreneurs seem, to, be, be, dyslexic., um, I, don't know what the percentage is but like Richard

Branson for instance dyslexic the the famed attorney David Boyce and then now Karp and and you know what um what we know and what Karp explained to me and

research has borne this out there's a couple things about dyslexics um you know one they have to get they can't process as much information in any given moment as other people so they get by on

less information and and that can lead to you you know, being able to act more quickly on the information they have.

And that's certainly the way he feels.

So he can he can, you know, make decisions, reach conclusions based on less information and which allows him enables him to act more decisively um more quickly and decisively and he

thinks that has been absolutely integral to the success he's had um as a CEO. And

the other factor is you know dyslexics you know it is a disability and you need help from other people and you know you can't have this sort of you

self-reliance is not you know something you can really have and and and you know when you get into you're building a company you have to delegate you have to

get other people involved um you know it's not this you know me myself and I um you know and and you know I think with a lot of you know companies particularly you So, you know, when you

have entrepreneurs, you have founders, I sus, you one would assume, you know they're this is their baby. Um, they

are, you know, emotionally and financially invested in it and it's probably really hard for them to delegate responsibility. Um, and in the

delegate responsibility. Um, and in the case of someone like Karp, he is used to having, you know, because he's he needed help before and he's, you know, and so

you know, he's used to working in the idea of working as a team and and and and of delegating authority and and of drawing on the strengths of other people is something that, you know, he grew up

with as a dyslexic. So, you know, this you know, he believes that this has made him a a more effective leader and and has in, you know, has been absolutely integral to Palanteer's success.

>> Do, you, think, that, he, almost, sees, it, as uh a weapon that allows him to differentiate himself? I mean, Karp is

differentiate himself? I mean, Karp is someone who is not afraid to be different. He kind of you really likes

different. He kind of you really likes the fact that he's different. Do you

think dyslexia is makes makes him so different from a traditional academic that for him to you know survive in academia he had to work twice as hard which ultimately implicated his life in Palunteer?

>> You, know, I, don't, know, about, that, but, I mean I do know I mean obviously just the fact that he had this learning disability and then goes on to like you know I mean he he crushes it at Havford he goes on to Stanford law and then he

goes and earns a doctor to go to university Frankfurt. I mean with this

university Frankfurt. I mean with this disability I mean that's impressive. I

mean, that's, you, know, and, and and, and, as much as he downplays how hard he worked um I would imagine it was you know you know some herculean efforts at points um because of this and so you know I don't

know that you know you know I don't know that you know you know that that how this translate to h to to palanteer but I mean I think you

know certainly um you know and I don't know that you know I don't know that you know he he because he doesn't I mean he talks a bit about his dyslexia But it's not something you know when he goes on

CNBC or appears elsewhere he doesn't really he will occasionally mention it but it's not something that he you know seems to you know particularly interested in calling attention to >> right

>> um, you, know, so, you, know, there, are, other factors other things but I think you know listen I mean you know privately and and and with his colleagues I mean you know he will certainly say that you

know dyslexia is a is a very very big factor and and you know one of the things that has differentiated him as a leader.

>> Okay., So,, let's, get, into, uh, some, of, the conversation on Palunteer and then we'll get back to Karp himself. Um I guess let's let's start with this question and then we'll go from there. Do you think

people in the general public have an unfair understanding of what Palanteer's technology actually does?

>> I, think, there, are, misconceptions., I

mean, you know, you know as well as I do um that yeah the name Palanteer is now almost synonymous with surveillance. And I'm

not helping that with the subtitle of my book, >> which, actually, was, a, bit, surprising, to me. I didn't know that was going to be

me. I didn't know that was going to be the subtitle.

>> Well,, you, know,, I, and, I, will, tell, you,, I mean, you know, you know, people at Palanteer, you know, Karp has seen the book. Um, and people have other people

book. Um, and people have other people have seen it and they're not thrilled about that. I think I think it is you

about that. I think I think it is you know I it is they're not a surveillance technology company but you know part of the work they do is to you know can

enable surveillance I mean they they they can facilitate surveillance their software can help you know intelligence services, with, their, work, and, and and obviously it was a company that was

founded in part with an investment from Inqel so I don't think they can really disavow the surveillance connection or concern um that easily. But I do think there are some fundamental

misconceptions, and, and, one, of the, things I hope obviously with this book is that it'll clear up some fundamental misconceptions such as you know you see it all the time. I mean people just assume that they they collect the data they store the data.

>> Yeah.

>> And, and, and, and, it, is, obviously, very important to get across that point to you know general interest readers to the public that that's not what they do. It

is software that enables organizations to make better use of their own data >> and, and, and, you, know, why, you, know, why this hasn't you know you why this hasn't

you know penetrated with much of the public it seems well I mean listen Palanteer only in the last few years has it become something like a household name you know you people were at best

vaguely familiar with it and you know listen when I started writing the book I mean lots of people were like huh what you know who's he what's Palunteer that has, changed, obviously, just, in, in in, in

the last three years going from you know $10 a share to almost 200 will do that um but you know so there's greater recognition now is there um better

understanding of what they do um maybe at the margins but I think a lot of people still labor under the misconception that this is a company that you know you that that you know

collects the data stores the data and and you know part of this is undoubtedly tied to you you know, Facebook, Google, I mean which, you know, collect data. The

business is, you know, your data is their business.

>> Well,, that, that, that's, that's, the, other thing that was I mean, you talk a lot about in the book how Karp has the disdain for some of these consumer internet companies. Why do you think

internet companies. Why do you think generally people are very quick to say Pounder is the evil boogeyman that's going to steal your data, not knowing that that's quite literally not what they do, but Facebook quite literally makes hundreds of billions of dollars of

revenue per year. Why is there that dichotomy? Well, he recognized early on

dichotomy? Well, he recognized early on he understood that, you know, that that he he he certainly understood, you know from, you know, from the start, you know, the nature of Facebook's business the nature of Google's business. And he

also saw that this could have implications, very negative implications for Palanteer. They could get lumped in.

for Palanteer. They could get lumped in.

I mean, there was you, you know, he understood that there was just disaster waiting to happen. Um, certainly with Facebook and and and and it did happen.

I mean you know data was you know you know manipulated data was you know you know scraped and all that sort of stuff.

So he understood the risks with this and he also understood that you know any any company operating in this area um was you know vulner was in danger of being

swept up in a in a back a generalized backlash against it and and so that was a very legitimate concern that he had visav Facebook certainly and Google you

know as well and you know so took pay you know went to great lengths to try to differentiate himself and of course this also you know fed his hostility towards

Facebook, which he describes as a carcinogen and a parasitic business. He

wanted to make clear that, you know that that um you know, Palanteer was different. Now, why does Palanteer get

different. Now, why does Palanteer get singled out? Well, it's because, you

singled out? Well, it's because, you know, it it's because of who it works with. I mean, you know, you know, and

with. I mean, you know, you know, and that's you know, there there's no getting around that. And you know, you work with intelligence services. Um you

work with ICE. um you know during the first you know Trump administration I mean he made the point that Palanter was not the only tech firm working with ICE

um you know and then that got to the complicating factor there certainly during the first Trump presidency was teal >> I, mean, he, drew, a, lot, of, attention, to

Palanteer um would Palanteer have been you know this would Palanteer have been so controversial the first Trump presidency if teal hadn't been associated with the

company probably not but you know again it works you know the company works with clandestine services it's you know it works with law enforcement works with ICE so you know in that sense you know

controversy was inevitable with paneler yeah and you know it's something that I've struggled with over the past couple years covering the company uh and then struggle in the sense of I've almost seen it as a challenge of like

correcting the people that would try to dunk on Palunteer by saying they do this they do that and I'm like look I I objectively not opposed to hearing a different perspective on what Palanteer does or what they don't do. But as

someone who's actually studied the architecture of the software, I mean, it just doesn't feel like that's necessarily what's going on here. Even

with the NHS contract, that was a very controversial contract that they ended up achieving. You're seeing the results

up achieving. You're seeing the results a year and a half later of backlogs being reduced and like so you start asking yourself, do these people in the UK care more about the narrative counter? Do they care more about having

counter? Do they care more about having better healthcare? Well, and and that's

better healthcare? Well, and and that's a great question and I mean, you know in the book I talk, you know, I mentioned, of course, the NHS, but you know, look at the work that you Palanteer did during the pandemic. Um

>> and, and and, there's, a, lot, of misconception um which I've tried to clear up in in that discussion about what went on then. You know, all talk no big contracts and that this is somehow

another soop to to teal from Trump and it was none of those things. and and you know and and and you know Palunteer um made an invaluable contribution um to

the effort to to try to get some handle on the spread of the virus and then of course the vaccine roll out. I think

>> it, was, quite, literally, Deborah, Burick saying we need help.

>> We, need, help., It, was, it, was, nothing, to do with nothing to do with Trump. I mean

as someone a Palanteer executive said to me in the context of another um issue during the first Trump presidency, he said Trump wouldn't know how to spell Palanteer. Maybe he does now, but you

Palanteer. Maybe he does now, but you know, so I mean, but again, I mean there are these narratives um you know and and and narratives sort of take hold. I mean, you for instance, I mean

hold. I mean, you for instance, I mean just like kind of stepping back, I mean you know, you will still I mean, we talked earlier, you know, it's still referred to as Teal's Panteer. You still

see almost always in any article about Palunteer secretive but you know, I mean, okay, they were very open with me, gave me access to

anyone I needed. Karp gave me, you know extraordinary access. But, you know, I

extraordinary access. But, you know, I think you take a look at the website there is a hell of a lot of information on their website. Oh, yeah. You can

learn, you can learn a lot about Palunteer by just going to their website.

>> Um,, you, know,, they, were, I, more, tight lipped in the past >> and, they, are, still, tight, lipped, about some things. There things they don't

some things. There things they don't they can't talk about work with the clandestine services and so forth and some of the military work. But I think you know, the I think the secretive um description really no longer applies.

But again, these things just kind of take on a life of their own. And and and you know, and and so you know you know, one of the points I'm try I think I I've succeeded in conveying in

this in this book and and I hope I've conveyed is that look, it's complicated company. It's involved in so many

company. It's involved in so many different things. Um there are things

different things. Um there are things you should be concerned about. There are

things they can be criticized for, but you know, if you're any fair-minded account of what this company does, but also acknowledge that there are things that they have done that have been

enormously beneficial and and the pandemic was one example of this. And

then, you know, as you know, for you know, the reaction in the UK, I think it's you know, again, it's a lot of this is bound up in in the controversy over Teal. He didn't help in that case. you

Teal. He didn't help in that case. you

know, he goes and gives a talk at the Oxford Union, as I recall, and says that, you know, you know, Britain's attachment to the NHS is a form of Stockholm syndrome.

>> That, did, not, win, over, many, people, in, the UK. So, you know, um and we'll get to

UK. So, you know, um and we'll get to Teal in a little bit, I know, but you know, I think, you know, there is, you know, and more recently, of course, in the UK, there's been real push back

because of, you know, the support the company's given to Israel.

Um but you know um you know and this is something they they have to this is an ongoing challenge for Palunteer. Um you

know sort of how do you get people to acknowledge the good work you know you know even if there are other aspects of what the company does that that they

regard as you know not so audible then and that do cause controversy. I I I think we would both agree and I think Karpa said this many times that if Paler was in the hands of the wrong people

the software and technology is so profoundly incredible and useful and powerful that it could be used in in a in a myriad of bad ways. Um do you think

that also implicates to the mystique around the company that if the software was in the wrong hands it would be used in such bad ways that people are almost expecting and hoping that the software

continuously stays in the allies of the west as Karp would say so that the software at least has a broader north star than the hands of Russia or China.

Well, yeah. I mean, I think you know what has been interest what was interesting it was clear to me when I was doing the story for the times magazine back in 2019 2020 and and I think it even it persists to this day

and and you know this as well there there's been like two contra conflicting narratives about Palanteer. is this all powerful, you know, technology dangerous as hell. And there's other you know, there was certainly when the

company was going public, you saw a lot of stuff expressing skepticism about just how good it was and you know that you know, that people saying, "Oh, it's just you basically a lot of smoke and mirrors." Um, you know, usually the

mirrors." Um, you know, usually the answer of these things is the truth is somewhere in the middle. Actually, the

truth is probably it's it's it is pretty powerful software. I mean, you know, the

powerful software. I mean, you know, the way I I' I've described it is it's, you know, it's got the efficiency of a wood chipper and the malleability of play-doh. Um, I don't know if people at

play-doh. Um, I don't know if people at Palanteer would use th that ex those exact analogies, but I think it is, I mean, you know, from talking to customers, um, you know, those

>> one, customer, told, me, it's, like, looking into the Matrix.

>> Yeah., Yeah., I, mean,, those, who, use, it swear by it. Um, and and they think it is, you know, just heads and shoulders above anything that they can get elsewhere in the market. And so you know

it is powerful and you know I think you know I would rephrase it slightly and and I you know there's no avoiding politics and and you know but I would

say you know and I'm showing my hand here which you know I think you know one of the lessons that I think a lot of people took from the first Trump

presidency was and and there was you know I think this pres this second Trump presidency is is different in some ways but I I think you know the lesson was

for many people that you know technology this powerful um could be a very useful tool in the hands of an authoritarian regime and that's not you know I'm not

commenting on Trump so much as just as a more general comment about you know this would be a very powerful tool in the hands of you know an authoritarian

regime um you know that a regime that was not and and and you know there is you know because the the the the com the karps retort if he were part of this conversation would be like look at we've

got these privacy controls we take civil liberties seriously and they do that is absolutely true but you know as you know it's the end user in the end who decides

you know how rigorously to use those privacy controls to use those guard rails um you know and and and there have been instances where stuff has been abused and has nothing to do with

Palunteer I mean they they you know they sell their software they don't monitor how it's used um you know certainly not on a daily basis. So you know there is risk, and, and and, Karp, has, been, very

upfront about this and and as you know they've not sold to some that they they didn't sell to Saudi Arabia. Um you know the Obama administration expressed some interest in having them sell the

technology to Saudi Arabia during the Arab Spring because there was worried about there were fears about the stability of the Saudi regime. M

>> they, chose, not, to, do, it, because, of, Saudi Arabia's human rights record and and then Karp did not want to contribute to any human rights abuses. Um they so they

you know they do they do they have in the past turned down potential customers because of concerns about how it might be used. And I think you know that is

be used. And I think you know that is that is always you know the danger with something wi with technology that is this that that is this powerful that that you know whether it's on the

corporate side or the government side you the there is the potential for abuse and and for a lot of abuse and and and you know there's a lot of personal data that flows through their software in

different places you know whether on the commercial side or in the government space and you know one has to be very alert to these risks and they are, but you know, at the end of the day, it's the customer who decides.

>> So,, let's, let's, just, transition, into, the political conversation because I think this is one is also really important.

Let's start right here. You just said that the Obama administration was thinking of telling Pounder to to sell their software to Saudi Arabia and Karp said no. Uh, which implies that they've

said no. Uh, which implies that they've been working with the US government for a long time. They were working with the Obama administration.

>> Uh,, from, my, understanding,, Obama, 2.0 deported more people than Trump 1.0, but Allter gets a pretty bad rap, especially in Trump 1.0. Why do you think a company that has worked with the government

whether it was a Democrat or Republican in office, is now being seen as the evil authoritarian use of Trump's fascism?

>> Well,, you, know,, it's, it's, a, it's, it's, a it's a complicated question. I would say going back to the first Trump presidency, listen, you know, as you noted, I mean, the ICE the relationship

with ICE began in 2014 under Obama.

>> It, wasn't, controversial, then, and, Obama was deporting a lot of people. Uh, I

think it was the the the Trump's rhetoric and I think, you know, it was some of the stuff that was done um the child separation policy um that did not sit well with people. So, there was

stuff that was done under Trump that was different that was being done under Obama. So, that's one thing, but I also

Obama. So, that's one thing, but I also think look at, you know, you can't you can't downplay, you know, the Teal effect. you know, Peter was Teal was

effect. you know, Peter was Teal was his, you know, big you know, Trump's biggest supporter in Silicon Valley and probably the biggest supporter in the business community in 2016 and um you

know, he was not a popular figure and and and, and, you, know,, so, a, lot, of, this was seen through that prism and and and so I think you know >> Yeah., So,, so, it, was, it, was, a, bit, more

>> Yeah., So,, so, it, was, it, was, a, bit, more narrative than than reality because if they're doing the same work and yes there are some things that are different, but people want to now associate Palanteer with evilness. It's

more so their disdain for Trump. You

would say >> that's, a, big, part, of, it, though., I, mean, I will also say that, you know, um they were you because they didn't want to be

associated with Trump's in, you know immigration policy. They emphasized, you

immigration policy. They emphasized, you know, early on that we work with HSI.

we're not working with, you know, you know, the other side, you know, you know, enforcement and removal and and and so they were saying that publicly and then that distinction kind of collapsed because HSI was involved in

some raids and then they said, "Yeah Palinger software is playing a part, but it's a very minimal part." So, you know I think they sort of, you know, hurt themselves there a bit by just, you

know, disavowing any connection with you know, the immigration crackdown when in fact the software was playing some role in it. And again, it was, you know you know, listen, I mean, you know, how

everyone feels about immigration, how everyone feels about, you know, you know, undocumented people, I, you know from my point of view, there was stuff done during the first Trump presidency.

mean separating children from their parents and you know and and and and a a lot of kids a lot of families haven't been reunited still. Um you know that's

that's it's a hard policy to defend. Um

and and and it's not Palunteers's role to defend it but if you're in any way implicated in that you know you're going to you're going to take some slings and arrows too. So, you know, um, but I also think

too. So, you know, um, but I also think and and and you know, Karp, we had a lot of conversations back in 2019 about this and and and he made the point that other

technology companies were working with ICE and yet they weren't, you know being, you know, they weren't being protested. The the program that was

protested. The the program that was directed at Pounder wasn't being directed at others. And, you know, on the one hand, he took it as a backhanded compliment. He's like, you know, it's it

compliment. He's like, you know, it's it it was sort of a task acknowledgement that the software was really good, but it also really pissed him off because they were singling out Palunteer. And I

think it's, you know, part of it is because, you know, Palanteer worked with the clandestine services, made no bones about its enthusiasm for working with the government and in areas that kind of

gave people some concern, but also again big part of it was because of Peter Teal. Well, so I've heard Karp over the

Teal. Well, so I've heard Karp over the past uh year start to stress the idea that, you know, on the topic of immigration that we're speaking of, uh border control matters and having a safe

and secure border is the fabric for the sovereignty of your country. And he

compares it to what's going on in Germany and things that we're seeing and how it's not necessarily the best thing for the West. Um, an article came out uh on Axios a couple of days ago that it

was titled Karp has gone full MAGA and uh Karp responded to this by saying the person who wrote the article you uh who also wrote the book is filled with TDS

even though you're a good person. So

so, so just straight up I want to ask you the question. You know, you're you're talking about immigration and borders and if Karp was in this conversation right now, he would say well, a healthy border really does matter and that's not political. That's

just like, hey, do we want legal immigrants taking away jobs? Things that

>> Yeah.

>> Do, you, have, TDS?, And, did, that, impact, how you write?

>> All, right., I'm, gonna, I'm, not, going, to avoid, your, question., I'm, going to, get, to your question, but the first thing I would say is like look at his views have evolved on this issue. Um, you go back and, and and, look, at, the, stuff, he, said, to me and others, you know, during the

first Trump administration. Um, you

know, he said to me, I am totally in favor of the dem I'm totally fine with the demographics of this country changing if it's changed through legal immigration. No issue with that. His

immigration. No issue with that. His

views have evolved on that. Um, he

believes that the 2024 election was a vote to keep the demographics of the country the same. Um, and and and hence he has no qualms now about supporting

ICE. He was he was you know he did have

ICE. He was he was you know he did have some qualms in 20ou during the first Trump presidency and in fact said that if he had known what was going to happen he might not have signed the contract

with ICE. Um so you know that was the

with ICE. Um so you know that was the first Trump presidency. So his views have evolved. Um, I would say that, um

have evolved. Um, I would say that, um you know, when he says Trump derangement syndrome, it's, you know, I think part of this is because, you know, in the

book I'm dredging up stuff he said about Trump when Trump, you know, you know first became a candidate in 2015 and and and and Karp said some pretty harsh

stuff. He made very clear he was not a

stuff. He made very clear he was not a supporter. And it's it's

supporter. And it's it's now, you know, Trump is president now again. And it's, you know, and and then

again. And it's, you know, and and then you know, listen, the way it works is the first rule of business in Donald Trump's Washington is don't piss off Donald Trump. The second rule is do what

Donald Trump. The second rule is do what you can to ingratiate yourself with him.

>> But, to, push, back, push, back, on, that, real quick, >> sure.

>> One, thing, that, I've, spoken, to, about other tech CEOs, some of them have, you know, I've spoke to one CEO privately who's CEO of a company worth $120 billion, and he told me the Democrats

gave up on everything he cared about which primarily was rooted in crypto and AI. And this is a guy who's a lifelong

AI. And this is a guy who's a lifelong Democrat. Yeah.

Democrat. Yeah.

>> But, for, him, to, advance, his, business, to one day become a trillion dollar company instead of a hundred billion dollar company, he needs to be on the side of the people that are sensible around crypto and AI and what we've seen with the Genius Act over the past couple months. We have some really meaningful

months. We have some really meaningful crypto regulations that are not the Gary Gendler anti crypto. Do you think it's not Palanteer evolving to keep their business in the right space, which of

course that that plays a part of it, but Karp realizing that the Democrats just aren't ready to evolve as a as a >> Well,, I, think, I, listen,, I, think,, and, and

and listen, I think, you know, I think I'll be curious to see how my book gets reviewed, if it gets reviewed in in, you know, sort of progressive journals

because, you know, you I'm fully expecting there'll probably be, you know, harsh reception in some places that I was too fair to carp these are people who don't really like him don't

really like Palanteer don't like billionaires but I think and I hope that'll be read with an open mind because you know when you go back and you know Karp said he said this to me in

2019 one of our conversations is quoted in the book he said look it you know I don't think people are against immigration they're not happy with illegal immigration they don't like

scenes of chaos at the border and either you take their concerns seriously or they're going to turn to politic politicians who do take their concerns seriously right?

>> And, I, would, think, that,, you, know,, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I'm a progressive. Um, you know, I I I don't

progressive. Um, you know, I I I don't mind saying that. Um, you know, that's where my sympathies lay and and I would say, you know, looking at, um, you know we're now in the second Donald Trump is

president again. And I think, you know

president again. And I think, you know it'd be sort of hard to argue that he was wrong about that.

Yeah, >> you, know,, I, mean,, it's,, you, know,, there was, you know, we've got two elections now and and then, you know, if you weren't happy with, you know, if you weren't happy with the first Trump

presidency, um, the border was an ongoing, issue, and, now, you've, got a second Trump presidency. So, I think >> and, the, second, one, was, a, mandate, given the swing states that he won, I think.

>> Well,, he, did., I, mean,, he, won,, you, know, he won a significant victory. I think

it's less of a mandate to people but you know give it but he won and and and you know, and, that's, you, know, and, and and, and you know it's very clear that voters you know you know polling now is like you

know I think you know polling clearly indicates that people are not really happy about how this is being done now but I think you know I think you know the views on immigration seem a little more are a little more subtle than you

know it's not that people are against immigration but you they again they don't like scenes of chaos at the border and Karp back in 2019 said you don't look at um you know, you got to take this stuff seriously. If you don't, you

know, you're not going to like what happens. And I think it would be very

happens. And I think it would be very hard, you know, for anyone who's on who's fair-minded about it to say, well he was wrong about that. Um and and so you know, he you know, I don't think crypto or anything like that is of

concern to him or not particularly concern. What's paramount to him? The

concern. What's paramount to him? The

things that matter to him are national security are, you know, the border clearly and and just, you know, and I think, you know, he believes him and we can get to October 7 later. that was a

very, big, factor, in, in, in in in, his thinking. But I think, you know, his

thinking. But I think, you know, his evolution politically certainly goes back to the first Trump presidency. um

he did not you know he's saying this he's saying you know you got to take this stuff seriously or the voters are going to turn to people who do and instead of listening to him you know um

you know people are protesting Palanteer and, and and, and, you, know, so, he's, I, think he was you know quite perturbed that his fellow progressives you had turned on

Palanteer had turned on him had made them, you, know, the, the these, you, out, to be these evil figures and so that you know sort pushed them away and and then you know there was you know the stuff that

happened in New Orleans which I'll talk about with the book. I mean there's a lot of controversy about their work with law enforcement and and a lot of that controversy was you know probably overblown because they didn't really do that much work with municipal police

departments in the United States. It

wasn't a very successful effort for them and and now they're not working with any municipal police departments in the United States and and you know it's a very complicated issue as Karp himself said. I mean, you know, there's a

said. I mean, you know, there's a history of racialized policing, a lot of concern about data-driven policing in New Orleans, though. I mean, it was, you know, you know, New New Orleans had an

epidemic of homicides and, you know, 90% of the victims were black, 90% of the perpetrators were black. I mean, that was, you know >> the, truth, was, in, the, data., Palanteer

gave it the software to the city free of charge to help try to reduce the murder rate. And the whole thing erupted in

rate. And the whole thing erupted in controversy because you know Pounder you know was accused of pred you know you know helping you know facilitating predictive policing that was unfairly

targeting minority communities and this really insensed carp because you know he was just like this is you know this was a case in his view where they were unequivocally on the side of good.

>> Yeah., and, you, know, and, and, and, actually not the people who were potentially benefiting from Palunteer from from the use of Palunteer software in in the city but from you know progressives who were

far removed from you know from the neighborhoods in in in in New Orleans that were seeing all this carnage. those

people made us think about this. And so

that was one of the another thing that really sort of alienated him from the Democrats or started his, you know, his his his his move away from

>> So,, so,, so, as, he's, moved, away, from, like full-on progressive, which which he was his entire life >> um,, and, he, has, acknowledged, that,, you've acknowledged that

>> um,, the, the, title, of, that, article, was he's now gone full Maga. So the question then comes down to has he as a progression got gone has he as a progressive gone MAGA or have the

progressives like yourself have a massive case of TDS that aren't reality >> well, who's, right, here >> well, I, mean, listen, I, mean, I, what, he would call what he um would describe in

the book as as as TDS there I I think there's I think it's slightly exaggerated there's not that much but I would say I would say it's protruuth not TDS but that's you know opinions may

vary That's that's what a person who has TDS would say. That's

>> um, I, think, he, listen, um, I, think, yeah, he would say a couple things. I think he you know he he and and you've heard this I mean this was true. He's not a neocon.

He's takes pains to emphasize he's not a neocon but like the neocons of the 60s and 70s he he would say that he didn't leave the left the left him.

>> Exactly.

>> So, there's, that., I, would, say, that, he, um yeah has you know during the first Trump presidency he made very clear he did not like Trump. He did not want Trump as

like Trump. He did not want Trump as president. He didn't you know uh he made

president. He didn't you know uh he made his disapproval loud.

>> He, even, endorsed, Harris, to, an, extent, I think.

>> Yeah., Well, he, did., I, mean, I, think, you know but >> but, he, knew, she, wouldn't, win, is, was, that >> well, he, was, pretty, I, mean, he, kind, of, you know after she after you know Biden you

know stepped aside and she became candid I mean I we had a conversation was in August it was after the Democratic convention and he was then he thought you know she'd had a really good convention he thought okay maybe she

could win by election day by the the weekend before the election he was like he didn't think she would win he wasn't sure but he still thought Trump would win but I mean yeah okay so he's supporting but I you know, if he

supported her, it was very reluctantly.

He was not an enthusiast. And and and you know >> Trump, wins, and, and, and, look, at, I, mean, >> if, you're, if, you're, a, company, that, does business with the US government and they do a lot of business with the

government, you sort of have to get on board here. But um I would say in

board here. But um I would say in contrast to some other um tech executives, I won't name names but you know who I'm referring to. The

opportunism kind of drips off them like sweat. Um you know, he he

sweat. Um you know, he he found reasons to get behind. It's not

just because you have to, but there are things that you know that he you know find that he approves of now. I mean, he is now he's now a hardliner on immigration. He, you know, and and and I

immigration. He, you know, and and and I talk about that extensively in the book and and and he's much more in line now with with Peter Teal's view. um he um

you know he's he's he's changed his mind about it, you know, not just because he sees the Trump's second election victory 2024 as a as a as a vote to keep the demographics of the country the same

but he also sees it through the prism of October 7th, what happened in Israel the out, you know, what he saw as an outbreak of anti-semitism

on on college campuses. And you know before October 7th, he saw immigration as a as a toxic issue for the Democrats.

Um, after October 7th, he also sees it as a as a toxic issue for American Jews.

Um, you know, and and this is this is a part of the book that I think is going to generate a lot of conversation and and a fair amount of controversy. He

spoke with I mean that you read it. I

mean, is that your is that your take as well?

>> Yeah,, I, I, think, let's, just, transition then to the to the Israel conversation here. So, I thought this was a pretty

here. So, I thought this was a pretty nuanced part of the book. Obviously

Karp is Jewish and he saw the atrocities of October 7th, equivalent to, you know 50,000 people in the United States.

>> Um,, he's, always, been, explicitly, Jewish.

He never hides away from it. If he if someone asks him, he'll he'll talk about it.

>> And, this, brought, back, the, sense, of, well, we've always said never again, and now it's happening.

>> Yeah., At, the, same, time,, you, have, some quotes in the book that says Karp wouldn't mind if uh Netanyahu, let's just say, wasn't the president, given there might not be a full alignment between everything the Israeli

government has been doing in uh Palestine. So, I guess the question here

Palestine. So, I guess the question here is we'll just start it off with what do you think happened on October 7th that really got Karp to take out a an advertisement in the New York Times and say we stand with Israel?

>> Well,, I, think, this, gets, back, to, the point I made earlier. you have, you know, the key to understanding Karp is this sense of vulnerability that he's had, you know, from a very young age.

And and again, even with the wealth he has amassed, even with his, you know vast security detail, he still has this sense of vulnerability. Um, and and

October 7th, I mean, this pgram in Israel, um, you know, shook him, um, as it shook many Jews. I mean, it was, you know, it was the largest, you know

killing of Jews since the Holocaust. And

um he you know this this this you know again this he always you know always knew that anti-semitism was a was a powerful force in the world that you

know Jews were vulnerable but this really in a way that you know not in his lifetime not in mine um you know brought home the danger and and again he you

know do not discount the fear factor for him. I mean you know this is this is

him. I mean you know this is this is essential to understanding Palanteer. um

you know as he told me way back in 2019 his fear drives a lot of what makes this company what it is and and and so you know this was just a huge event for you know a seismic event obviously for the

world huge for Palanteer and and on a personal level just you know just a major major event for him and and something that you know shook him to the

core and and and you know galvanized him in all sorts of ways and and he was very outspoken about, you know about what happened and and and from the

start and and was frustrated that other people weren't speaking out. Um, you

know, he talks about he talked about that with me. It's in the book. I mean

he's very frustrated that other leaders in the business community are not speaking up or not expressing support for Israel. You know, he says, "Why am I

for Israel. You know, he says, "Why am I the only one?" And and you know, and and so he really goes >> "Why, do, why, do, you, think, that, pissed, him off so much?" because he thought that they were being cowards. That, you know

he believed that many of them, you know agreed with them 100%. But just didn't you know, as he said, they didn't want to be screamed at by, you know, by, you know, college kids. They want to be screamed at by, you know, people who

were, you know, who were unhappy with Israel. And and so, you know, they just

Israel. And and so, you know, they just wanted to keep their heads down. And and

that's that's obviously not the way he does things. Um, he doesn't keep his

does things. Um, he doesn't keep his head down. Um, and in this case, he he

head down. Um, and in this case, he he certainly didn't, but it it irritated him. and and you know and and you know

him. and and you know and and you know this is you know I think the chapter on Israel is you know the sort of real key to understanding how he got here because

you know he's you know this is where you see him not just wrapping his mind I mean he's pretty convinced that Trump is going to win. So this is, you know, 20 you know, 23 we're having these kind

2023, 2024, we're having these conversations.

He's pretty convinced that Trump is going to win. But this is where you start to see him like sort of like getting on board with Trump. Um, you

know, you know, that's where he is all but saying that he thinks, you know, a Trump victory would be better for Israel and that, you know, American Jews would be safer under Trump. Um, and I think that's where you kind of see it. I mean

there's this conversation we have. It's

like a week or two after October 7th.

And you know the thing, one of the other things you have to understand about Karp is he likes to argue. Um that's you know it's you know he likes to and and that's been integral to Palunteer says I mean

like from the >> intellectual, sparring, really, matters.

>> It, is, but, like, you, know, at, Palanteer, it was like from the start like there needed to be an open discourse. You need

to have you know people need to be able to speak candidly frankly push back hard even against the CEO. I mean, as a Jane said to me, you know, Carb's view was you should be able to tell even the CEO

to go [ __ ] himself. And that was, you know, that was and out of this very intense hot house atmosphere, you know people batting around ideas, pushing back hard against things they thought

were wrong, you would, you know develop, you know, superior products and that ultimately proved to be the case.

But he just likes to argue. Um, and and and and you know, it's, you know, it's who he is. It's how he grew up. I mean

a very animated household. I mean, you know, Matt Johnson, his cousin, tells me, you know, he used to hear them arguing., He he'd, be, over, there, for

arguing., He he'd, be, over, there, for dinner. He walks out and he hear them

dinner. He walks out and he hear them from from the sidewalk arguing. Carp and

his parents and his brother. So, this is just how it is. And um you know, he um you know, we're having this conversation in his Washington office. It's like a

week or two after October 7th. And you

know, this was like interesting because like you know, another thing about him is, you know, he's very persuasive, very convincing, speaks with utter conviction. Um, but in this case, it

conviction. Um, but in this case, it wasn't like me he was trying to convince. Like he just like, you know

convince. Like he just like, you know he says, you know, like I don't, you know, I don't think Donald Trump's a fascist. I don't think he's

fascist. I don't think he's anti-semitic. I don't think he's a

anti-semitic. I don't think he's a bigot. And all this stuff. And there was

bigot. And all this stuff. And there was nothing I had said. It was just more sort of him just sort of I felt like he was just sort of working his way into like saying >> I, can, get, on, board., If, I, have, to, get, on

board with this, I can. And and I do think I certainly now I think now I mean I know that he thinks that you know that that Trump is you know having Trump as

president is better for Israel in his view better for American Jews.

And do you think that is another reason why he has been uh not as fond of the Democrats anymore because of their tolerance for like supporting Hamas to an extent on campuses for example as he

said >> what's, that >> on, like, so, for, I, don't, think, the Democratic party as a whole supports Hamas but you've got these elite college universities where people are protesting some of them in favor I mean like do you think that stuff he just

>> Well, I, think, I, think, he's, sort, of, I think he has sort of exaggerated you know he he sort of I you know, and maybe we you can chalk this up to my TDS if

you want. I think he and and he's not

you want. I think he and and he's not alone in this. Um there's a tendency he he tends to focus on the most extreme

voices on the left. Um yeah, and to to say that they're the the sort of animating force in the Democratic party which I don't happen to think is true.

whereas he tends to like he tends to look at like you know the you know voices on the far right as the outliers there whereas like I look at that as like driving a lot of what's happening on the right. So we just have a very

different point of view about that. But

I do think that um you know he you know listen he he he was supporting Biden when Biden was the candidate because Biden had given Israel basically

cart blanch to do what it was doing. Um

so, you know, he was supportive of Biden and I think, you know, he he said he supported Harris. Um, but I do believe

supported Harris. Um, but I do believe certainly now he thinks that if you for Israel, for American Jews, it's better that Trump won. That is

>> What, is, your, perspective, on, the progressive left's um concern about Israel's uh use of military force in Gaza and

Palanteer software potentially enabling that? I mean, I think part of the

that? I mean, I think part of the reason, you know, this whole year has been a bit controversial for Pounder is because of their software being pivotal in Israel. Karp got called out by

in Israel. Karp got called out by protesters when he was speaking about it.

>> How, do, you, reconcile, as, an, author, the fact that their software might be used for some things that might not be the best, but also Karp acknowledging that he doesn't agree with everything the Israeli government is doing, but he still believes they have to support Israel?

>> Yeah., No,, I, think, I, mean, he, does, and it's important here and I mean this is something that has not been, you know reported, you know, not been confirmed.

I'm confirming it in my book mean because there you know there an Israeli publication um I think it was in 2024 reported that you know that the Israeli

military was using some AIdriven targeting programs in Gaza. Um, and it's interesting and this kind of gets to the point, you know, you know, Palanteer's reputation and, you know, there was

Palanteer wasn't mentioned in this article, >> and, yet, lots, of, people, assumed, that Palanteer had to be involved. Yeah.

including it turns out the special reporter the UN special reporter for the Palestinian territories who you know wrote a wrote a report about corporate

complicity with Israel which he claimed was Israel's genocide in Gaza and named Palanteer and claimed that Palanteer was involved with these three AIdriven targeting programs and the company

retained a very prominent British attorney to write her a very pointed note saying no we're not and it was confirmed for me separately that Palanteer was not involved with these things. So there are misconceptions

things. So there are misconceptions about you know the role they've been playing. They are playing a role there.

playing. They are playing a role there.

There you know their software is being used by the IDF by intelligence services there but you know for the targeting in Gaza they were not being used not through these AI and not through these

with these AIdriven targeting programs. Um so you know they are you know again another area of misconception but I would say that you know listen he's very

outspoken about this and and and in a way that no one else has been. So not

it's not just that they're involved.

There are other tech companies that are involved. Their CEOs just aren't out

involved. Their CEOs just aren't out there speaking the way he's speaking about you know about Israel about what's going on on college campuses. You know

he's out there. So it's in a sense it's not surprising that so much appropri has been directed at Palanteer by people who are unhappy with what Israel is doing

because Karp has been very outspoken um about this >> and, and, then, he, if, he, were, here, he, would say he he wouldn't say that's a mistake.

He doesn't care. I mean like I think that's the one I think that's another another important thing to recognize like he's given up on I think on caring about you know critics on the left. I

don't think I don't think he cares about that anymore. He did in the first Trump

that anymore. He did in the first Trump presidency. No, he doesn't.

presidency. No, he doesn't.

>> Uh,, another, geopolitical, event, that, was pretty massive and you discussed in the book was Ukraine, Russia.

>> Karp, was, one, of, the, first, CEOs, to, to, get to I actually didn't know the story about Poland and he had to go through all these different like I I I didn't know how that happened, but he got there. He got to meet Zillinsky. Uh, and

there. He got to meet Zillinsky. Uh, and

then for a while he he wasn't allowed to publicly say that their software was the reason why Ukraine was putting up a fight. But then one day he said, "Screw

fight. But then one day he said, "Screw it. We're going to let the world know

it. We're going to let the world know what what was your take on his um admiration for the Ukrainian people and for making sure their software was at the forefront of Ukraine.

>> Well,, I, think, listen,, I, mean,, you, know, from the start, you know, Palanteer said it was about defending the West, not just the United States, about defending the West. And, you know, it's

the West. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, there from the start, they said there are two countries we're not selling this to.

We're not selling it to China and we're not selling it to Russia. and and and think about that because you you're talking about you know company starts 2003 and you know telling you know

potential investors oh we're not going to sell in China um the death wish largest emerging market and you know boundary was a tough sell to begin with

that didn't make it any easier I would I'm sure and so you know those were like sort of bold you know slashc crazy calls Russia less so but certainly China now

of course it's been vindicated Um but that took a long time and and so you know you know he saw but he saw both he and his colleagues saw both Russia and China as fundamentally adversarial and

and and, and, and, you, know, certainly, when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 that was confirmation as if anyone needed it that it was fundamentally adversarial. And he

believed, as many people said at the time, that this was a fight for, you know, really the fight for the the free world um versus, you know, tyranny. Um

and and part of the appeal for getting involved with this, I believe, and it's quite clear. Um the Trump years were

quite clear. Um the Trump years were hard. They were hard, you know, for

hard. They were hard, you know, for Palent. They were hard for him. Um you

Palent. They were hard for him. Um you

know look at I mean you know the war on terrorism you know they you know the software was being had been used in Afghanistan and Iraq but you know the whole thing had sort of become you know

a shitow you know the war on terrorism you know was you know mired in controversy you know Guantanamo all this sort of stuff. So, you've got that and then you've got, you know, obviously all the domestic controversy during the

first Trump presidency, ISIS and and and and so forth. Here was a case finally okay, Trump is gone and here's a case where Palanter is unequivocally on the

side of good Ukraine and and and and so you know, that was a huge relief for him. Um something he wanted, you know

him. Um something he wanted, you know to call attention to. Um you know, took great pride in it. But of course, yeah they've got to be circumspect. This is

another source of frustration because you know so much of their work is in the shadows I mean you know clandestine services and so forth counterterrorism and and you know it's you know and this

has been said forever you know in the you know ever since 911 many in almost 25 years since then you know we rarely find out about the terrorist attacks that were thwarted

you know it's just like it's not shared with the public um and and rightly so but you know he said to me it's been a 20-year frustration that you know a lot

of the essential work that Palanteer was doing, you know, couldn't be recognized because it was taking place in the shadows and that where was that's where it was supposed to remain. So, you know

Ukraine happens. I'm with him. You know

Ukraine happens. I'm with him. You know

this is, you know, right after the invasion. And, you know, he he is now

invasion. And, you know, he he is now doing these letters to shareholders, you know, um to investors, you know, time to to coincide with each earnings report.

and they're writing and and actually this was I'm trying to remember if there was an ear they were doing an earnings report around that but he's in Washington and they're writing writing a letter and you letter finishes you know Palanteer software Palanteer

technologies in the fight in Ukraine and you know that had to be edited out you know the fight yeah and and >> fight, for, the, west >> fight, for, the, west, exactly, um, and, and

you know again just you know sort of reinforcing this frustration he felt and so what happens a couple months later he goes to Davos because if you Remember Davos was canceled in January of of 2022

because of COVID. So, they held it in May. Um, CO was still around. I know

May. Um, CO was still around. I know

because I got CO when I got home. Um

but I'm with him there and there are Ukrainian officials all over. Uh, not

all over, but there are a number of Ukrainian officials there and he meets with them and they're obviously supporting Palunteer is supporting Ukraine and and and some officials said "Would you like to come and meet

Zalinski?" and and you know, Karp says

Zalinski?" and and you know, Karp says to me, I'm thinking about going to Kev.

And I'm like, okay, that's great. And

I'm thinking, you know, when things quiet down next week, he's there. And

and and, that, was,, you, know,, he, wanted, to show his support. He found he was just you know, he really really liked Sinsky.

You know, the meeting was just, you know, just he really felt a kinship with him., So,, you, know,, and, and and, and, it

him., So,, you, know,, and, and and, and, it was a way of saying to the world Palanteers involved and and and of getting, you know, sort of, you know the the credit that it couldn't claim for all those years and was working on

counterterrorism and and in the shadows and stuff, never getting the credit he felt it deserved.

>> Well,, I, remember, the, stock, was, at, $7.

The picture comes out. This is June of 22. The picture comes out. So, they

22. The picture comes out. So, they

didn't explicitly say it, but we got the picture. We got the message

picture. We got the message >> and, the, stock, is, still, stuck, at, seven.

And all of us are like are we the only ones seeing that the software probably is kind of useful here you know so >> and, that, was, that, was, a, really, tough time and I mean you know in the book I'm sort of juaposing that because you know

you've got this software that is being used you largest land war in Europe since World War II um you know possibly an inflection point for the west um and

you know Palanteer is you know Karp is becoming like you know that's kind of where his public role changes I mean you know, he decides to stop referring to himself as the batshit crazy CEO because

he's like become this sort of statesman CEO and you people want to hear from him. He's got, you know, he goes to, you

him. He's got, you know, he goes to, you know, the Baltics. He's getting police escorts from the airport. So, he kind of, you know, he's occupying this very different sort of role now. And yet, you

know, the stock is like, you know, below the the price at which it opened. and

and you know and and and you know I think it was a source of you know again I mean you know politicians will say well we won't watch the stock price well that's not really true of course they were um and and just you know it was

very frustrating I would imagine to you know see you know the kind of valuable work you're performing and the value the market seemed to be placing on that work which wasn't very much uh so on the one

hand it was a very petty time for him very gratifying time for the company in some sense that it was you know so integral to this major major issue and yet you know also very frustrating

because you know you know listen the stock price is a way of keeping score and, then, and, and and, it, was, you, know languishing at a very low price while all this was happening. Yeah. And that's

where, you know, the real army that saw the value in Hunter, you know, to just buy more and see what was >> Well,, that's, the, thing., I, mean,, he, had, you know, developed this retail fan base after the company goes public and then

you know, they, you know, they were, you know, standing behind him, but, you know, obviously institutional investors Wall Street analysts, his friends on Wall Street, not so uh not so um smitten

with the pounder narrative >> right?, Uh, let's, talk, about, Teal., So, he

>> right?, Uh, let's, talk, about, Teal., So, he spent a good part of the book talking about the relationship with Teal and Pound and and and Car one of the first videos I did on YouTube when I was covering the company back in 22 was a

libertarian and a socialist somehow create a tech company.

>> Why, do, you, think, they, were, able, to, get along in the early days?

>> Well,, listen,, I, mean, they, they, they formed this friendship at Stanford Law.

They met at Stanford Law. Um they both had been philosophy majors as undergraduates. They they they

undergraduates. They they they metriculate to Stanford Law in the fall of 1992.

No, fall of 1989, excuse me. So, right

out of right after graduating, Peter Teal from Stanford, Karp from Hford. Um

and they both kind of quickly discovered that they don't love law school. Um

it's just not, you know, Karp said he knew within a week it had been a mistake. Tio was a little, you know

mistake. Tio was a little, you know less critical early on, but they're both not really happy there. So they bonded over their shared disdain for law

school, their love of chess and their love of political combat and and their you know, their their dorm room bull sessions were pretty epic. Um they both

told me, I mean, you know, Karp had he was on the left, he was libertarian and um as Carp put it, you know, they argued like feral animals. Um but a friendship

was born out of that and and and and so you know they lost touch after um graduating from Stanford Law. Karp goes

off to Germany to to pursue his doctorate. Um yeah almost everyone who

doctorate. Um yeah almost everyone who was with them at Stanford who knew what Karp was doing was like why would you do that? That's nuts. Why aren't you going

that? That's nuts. Why aren't you going to pursue a legal career tal was the only one who thought it was a good idea.

He like oh go for it. And so you know he encouraged him but they lost touch. Then

they reconnect after Karp comes back to the United States um you know in the early well mid two early 2000s and he's back in the United States and he takes a job uh as a development officer for a

Jewish philanthropy in the s in San Francisco and they reconnect um Teal he has Teal come to a meeting of donors um you know Teal as Teal explained to me it

was you meeting of donors to this organization and Karp wanted invited Teal there because he thought you Apparently, these donors would go after each other pretty hard during these meetings. And he thought if a a

meetings. And he thought if a a non-Jewish guy was there, it might make things a little more civil. Um I don't know if, that's, the, case,, but Teal is very quick very quickly comes to

realize that um his friend uh is really good at raising money >> um, and, and, and, really, good, at, working, a room. Um, as another Karp friend, um

room. Um, as another Karp friend, um you know, from Havford put it to me, his superpower is reading a room and and and

Teal sort of saw this. Um, Teal's

starting this company called Palunteer.

Um, and he's got, you know, some guys from PayPal and working on a prototype and, you know, wants to raise money for it. So, you know, he, you know, he gets

it. So, you know, he, you know, he gets Karp to do some moonlighting for him and and then, of course, you know, they're looking You know, initially Teal thought it would have, you know, for for the CEO

position, he thought they would need you know, he thought it was someone ex-military, someone with some stature in Washington. Um, they interviewed some

in Washington. Um, they interviewed some people, they just weren't great fits.

Stefan Cohen, Joe Lansdale, and Nathan Gettings, meanwhile, are working, you know, with Karp and they're like, maybe this guy's it. And they go to to Teal and say, you know, we think he's it. And

that's how Karp became the CEO. And and

you know, his politics were very different, than, Teal's., um, they, they they they had you know more agreement than people might have realized about just you know you know you know about you

know why the public was losing faith in institutions about trends in higher education so there were you know there were some they had you know similar views on some issues um but you know for

most of Palanter's history the fact that they were political opposites was a source of great intrigue um this relationship between them was a source of a lot of intrigue you the tech

community and beyond and and and you know the fact that they were political opposites >> um, acrewed, to, Pal's, benefit, in, a, lot, of ways, because, um, you, know, people, were a

lot you look at it and say okay this company working in the national security space but it's got this neocialist as a CEO and and and you know so what you know whatever concerns pe people had about

teal's views and he he had become increasingly political and and and had expressed views that were often quite controversial The fact that you had Karp as the CEO kind of disarmed some of the people who

who might have been suspicious of Palanteer, might have been critical of it. Um it sort of softened the image of

it. Um it sort of softened the image of the company and in that sense he was very useful as a CEO. Um quite apart from all the talents he brought to the

job. Um just this sort of you know

job. Um just this sort of you know yin-yang thing with Teal. Um and and you know they are very they're very close

friends. Um and um you know

friends. Um and um you know Karp said that he considers him because during the first Trump presidency Tio realized he had become a light he was obviously a lightning rod.

>> Yeah.

>> Which, is, why, he, kind, of, dialed, it, back in Trump 2.0. Well, he did, but I mean he realized that he had be that that he had become a public relations liability for Palanteer and he did offer early in

the first Trump presidency to step down from the board >> if, it, would, make, things, easier, for, Karp and Palanteer and Karp said hell no. Um

because you know first of all he he want he wanted Teal to remain involved with the company saw saw you know his council as invaluable. So and and wanted him to

as invaluable. So and and wanted him to retain that formal role with the company but he also because he it would have been an act of supreme betrayal in his mind. Um he you know he you know Teal

mind. Um he you know he you know Teal had brought him into the company right and Teal's support you know had been absolutely critical to his success as

CEO. He so he you know even you know he

CEO. He so he you know even you know he was more than happy to take the heat as opposed to throwing his friend overboard. Um and and you know but it

overboard. Um and and you know but it was you know teal I mean drew a lot of controversy to Palanteer as we talked about earlier and and and you know and and so you know the sort of you know the

you was during that first Trump presidency when you know the sort of you know okay you know he's on the left he's on the right you know and and and Palenter somewhere in the middle and it's all good that sort of collapsed a little bit it becomes you know a little

harder to do that and and and and because there were very there were very there were some very fundamental differences between what Teal was doing in the polit in the political realm in

those years and what Karp said Palanteer was doing, you know, he you know, you have Karp saying, you know, we're keeping the far right out of power >> right?

>> And, you've, got, Teal, supporting,, you know, candidates who I think many people would say were on the far right. Um, and

I'm I'm not even referring exclusively to Trump. I'm just saying, you know, and

to Trump. I'm just saying, you know, and and so, you know, that's where it becomes, you know, that's where it becomes a little trickier. Um, but you know, it's it's it's it's a you know and now I think you it's fair to say

that Karp has moved closer to Teal's worldview on some important issues. I

think there's less daylight between them, certainly on an issue like immigration and, you know, they're both on board with Trump again after both you know, Karp was not on board the

first time. Teal got to torture this

first time. Teal got to torture this metaphor. Teal got off board during the

metaphor. Teal got off board during the first Trump administration, said he wasn't going to support him. You know, I interviewed him twice for the book. Uh

we spent about 5 hours in total talking and those conversations were in the spring of 2023 and he said I'm not supporting him again and you know he found, his, way, back, and, and and, so, you

know they're both on board now again. Do

you think or let me ask you this question what is your perspective on Teal's perspective on Palunteer success?

So I mean this is a half a trillion dollar company and Teal has had a lot of successful investments but you know he founded a company that's worth you know almost half a trillion like does he understand it or does he kind of just

say well Karp was always going to do this one day because carp is carp >> well, it's, very, interesting, because, you know in the years before Palanteer went public I mean you know Tio was very

careful I mean he didn't he doesn't do a lot of interviews doesn't speak a lot publicly but yeah never you know gave no indication that he had any differences

with Karp over how Pounder was performing over how Karp was leading the company after the successful public listing after the company and and after the company after the stock you know

kind of rebounds after you know you you had that if you remember there was that you had that spike not long after the company went public and then it tumbles back to where it's like you know eight

$9 a share then it you know languishes there and then you know you finally have the turn to profitability and the company has been you on an upward trajectory ever since. That's when I you know, caught up with Teal. I'd

spoken to him for the magazine story in 2019. That's when I catch up with him

2019. That's when I catch up with him again in 2023. And at that point, he's willing to acknowledge that there were some differences. Um, and that he had

some differences. Um, and that he had some concerns about things at Palanteer and how the company had operated. I

mean, for instance, you know, he said if you had told him way back in, you know 2004, 2005 that the company wouldn't wouldn't have its first uh profitable quarter until 2022, he said that he

would have found that very surprising.

Yeah. Um

>> he, made, clear, that, he, had, wanted, the company to go public much sooner than Karp did. Yeah.

Karp did. Yeah.

>> Um, so, there, were, some, differences., Um, he you know said that you know um he thought there were path there were paths to success that yeah Palanter might have

taken that could have gotten them there faster and and then he said that you know he thought that the company because you know and you know this well the company and there's always been this narrative it's like you know the pirate

ship the renegades um you know and and and and like the sense that you know everything had to be done in a really hard way. They're fighting fighting this

hard way. They're fighting fighting this epic battle against enemies and sometimes they were I mean like you look at the fight over the army battlefield intelligence system. They were fighting

intelligence system. They were fighting you know a really you know they were subject to some really bad behavior on the part of the army and and the Pentagon. And so you know they you know

Pentagon. And so you know they you know it's not like you know this was a figment of Karp's imagination. They had

some real difficult fights on their hands to just get get their software in front of people to get you know people to say you to consider buying the software. So it wasn't easy but teal you

software. So it wasn't easy but teal you know said there was also this thing that like just pounder had to do things in a really hard way and sometimes that wasn't always necessary and the metaphor I use in the book it's not one he used

but the metaphor I use in the book is you know given a choice between you know teal felt that you know given a choice between walking through the front door and going down trying to squeeze down the chimney Palinger always chose the chimney >> right

>> and, you, know, he, attributed, this, to, it was interesting he said you know he attributed this in part to to Karp's persona he said you know that you know his riff on Karp is that he's working out this psychological thing where he

needs to do things in a really really hard way which I guess is you know like that's the honest way of achieving success you know in a really really hard way so there were these differences now of course I mean you know um you know

the company is you know as you said it's it's it's a half you know trillion dollar colossus um I don't think he'd be inclined to quibble with the way things have played out over the last couple

years um and and you know and and and and and and you know um I would imagine he's quite delighted with where the company is um you know and and where it's going because obviously you know

and one thing we haven't discussed is you know the second Trump presidency is a I think they Karp and his colleagues regard it as a massive opportunity for them which is >> so, so, let's, let's, go, further, from, there.

Why why do you think they believe it's a massive opportunity? because I think um

massive opportunity? because I think um listen they've wired over the last 10 years they've wired much of the federal government but I think they see this as an opportunity. It's interesting. I

an opportunity. It's interesting. I

mean, Karp um, you know, a while back we had this conversation and he thought that um, Palanteer, you know, was poised to become to this era what what IBM had been to in a previous era, sort of the

technological backbone for the government, for much of corporate America. And he really thought Palanteer

America. And he really thought Palanteer could get that there. And I think he believes that the company is probably now positioned to become so deeply

embedded in in in the government um you know that that you know it it would become the de facto operating system right in the way it has become that for like Airbus and BP

and I think he sees this as an opportunity to do that and and and that's what's going on here. It's not

just,, you, know,, you you, know, what's going on with him and Trump is not it's not just opportunism and you know, you know, it's not just necess he's not just

doing this out of necessity because you have to, you know, kind of, you know plate Trump and make nice with him and say nice things. It's not just out of necessity because they they've got a lot of government contracts. It's also

because there's he sees an opportunity.

And then of course he's also because you know ideologically he you know he f there are things that Trump is doing policies he's pursuing that he's in on

board with. So you know there it's a

board with. So you know there it's a multiaceted thing but a big part of this is that he and his colleagues think there's a a massive opportunity here.

>> Going, back, to, Karp's, ability, to, uh, raise money. Um, I actually spoke with Karp a

money. Um, I actually spoke with Karp a year ago and he he mentioned to me that he got this like small check from his grandpa was $12,000 and he turned that into a lot more. Uh, one one part of the book that was really interesting is when

Karp said, you know, my dream was to have a nest egg of 250,000 and go >> engage, in, German, debauchery, as, he, would say. Um, what is your perspective on him

say. Um, what is your perspective on him as a stock picker and a good investor?

Because that's where Teal gets all the credit.

>> Karp, was, not, too, bad, at, that.

>> Karp, was, pretty, good., I, mean,, word, got around that this guy knew how to pick stocks. He's very he's look, he's very

stocks. He's very he's look, he's very very smart, very sophisticated about this stuff. I mean, he is, you know, and

this stuff. I mean, he is, you know, and he knows he knows how to handle money. I

mean, let's let's just put it that way.

I mean, he's, you know, he um you know he knows how to do business. Um he's got a he seems to have a keen eye for investment. Um, and I and and he knows

investment. Um, and I and and he knows how to I mean I I don't know that I don't know that the way he runs Palanteer, the talents he brings to to Palanteer,, I, don't, know, that that, made

him a a good stock picker. I don't know that the two things are related, but you know, he just, you know, has, you know he has a sense of where people belong projects they should be working on

what's going to work, what's not going to work. And I suppose you know that you

to work. And I suppose you know that you know as an investor and you know it wasn't a very long stint as an investor but I I I suppose he had a nose for you know what

could work where the growth prospects were were they legitimate you know you know was there much upside to to a particular stock and and so he proved to be quite adept at it um wasn't what he

wanted to do particularly it was something he was just doing and and he it's not like he had ambitions to be to start a hedge fund or anything like that that's not the world. I don't actually know that. I mean, he said that, you

know that. I mean, he said that, you know, he just really wanted to make a $250,000 nest egg and go and, you know live the life of a dilitant in Berlin. I

don't really know if I believe that because, you know, it's important to understand that he um, you know, a lot of this stems from a lot of the ambition

comes from the sense that his parents didn't fulfill their talent um, the degree that he thought they should have.

And it's it's an interesting family dynamic. Um you know his he saw his

dynamic. Um you know his he saw his father uh who's a a pediatric physician and he saw him as a very talented clinician and researcher who just you

know didn't you know didn't achieve the stature in the field that he should have by dent of his ability. His mother he saw as a very talented artist who didn't get the recognition that he thought she

deserved. and you know and and and and

deserved. and you know and and and and what he saw you know again and you know he's you know it may sound harsh but he saw their his his overachievement became um overachievement became his answer to

their underachievement to what he saw as underachievement. So I'm not entirely

underachievement. So I'm not entirely sure that this was a guy who's going to be happy as a slacker.

>> I'm, not, quite, buying, that., I, think it may be a little bit of self- mythologizing just to underscore how improbable his success was. I mean, you know, he was going to he was undoubtedly going to be he would have obviously been

a successful academic. Success success

would have found him, you know somewhere. He would have found success.

somewhere. He would have found success.

Um, but I think one can say that the fact that he's ended up heading a major tech company, that might not have been the most obvious path for him.

>> What, was, Carp's, relationship, like, with his mother and father separately?

>> Um,, it's, it's, quite, interesting., He's

very close with his mother and you know it's it's interesting. I mean, you getting back to the whole thing about identity. Um, he's closer to his mother

identity. Um, he's closer to his mother than he is to his father. Um, the father is an interesting dynamic. I mean, at least according to Karp and his brother

Ben, um, the father has always kind of felt, you know, in competition with with his oldest son. Um, it's

>> really, he, felt, he, thought, Karp, and, his dad were competing against each other for success. Well, the father felt

for success. Well, the father felt somehow competitive with him and and and and you know um even now um you know doesn't really kind of you know give him

the credit for what he's achieved that you think he would. I mean that's that's what that's what Ben Karp Alex's brother said. That's what Karp himself

brother said. That's what Karp himself has said. Karp is you know no issue with

has said. Karp is you know no issue with it. He you know he is very generous with

it. He you know he is very generous with his family um including his father. um

he's close to his mother, but it is interesting. He's closer to his mother

interesting. He's closer to his mother than his father, but it's the Jewish heritage that is the part that, you know, that interests him and that that that he rises the most now. So, it's

kind of an interesting thing.

>> Why, do, you, think, he, never, got, married and had kids? I think it's partly because, you know, his parents had a pretty nasty divorce and, you know, it

was something that um that affected him deeply and I think, you know, probably colored his view of marriage colored his view of of children, of

having children. Um and I also just

having children. Um and I also just think this is um you know when he went to Europe um you know part of the you he

went to Germany to study he went to you know try to he went you he went there to pursue a doctorate he was in you know he wanted you know to pursue a doctorate because the thinkers who had most

engaged him were German but he also wanted to understand more about why the Holocaust had happened and his dissertation was essentially about the the rhetoric of fascism

um he gets to Germany and just loves it.

um you know discovers a kinship, a sense of belonging that that that surprises him and you know and and and and you know just really loves being there and

then part of it too was as he tells it German women really took to him and and um you know he um you know he to

hear him tell it he couldn't walk out his door without being dragged back to bed by lustful German women um which he quite and um you know but I apart >> it's, hard, it's, hard, to, get, married, when

that part is so exciting >> I, think, he, what, he, discovered, there, was there was a very different attitude about relationships um a very different >> different, from, the, United, States

>> different, from, the, United, States, exactly where you know it was like okay to live life as you want you don't have to be you know you don't have to be married you don't have to have kids you you know you can live a different way and it's

accepted there in a way that you know whereas here it's you know you you're looked at as a little bit odd >> yes, there, different, and, it's, something that that really you know that that you

know made I think a big impression about on him and and and that you know ultimately led him to say this is how I want to live my life now I will say that you know when you know I was doing the

story for the times magazine in 2019 he was you know kind of apologetic for the fact for his lifestyle I mean he was you know He felt that it was a liability for Palunteer. He thought he was absolutely

Palunteer. He thought he was absolutely the ideal person to lead the company internally, but he thought the fact that he wasn't a standard issue CEO was a liability for the company. The fact that he, you know, quite apart from not having the blow-dried hair and, you

know, and just not looking like a standard CEO or talking like one, the fact that he didn't have a wife and kids, you know, was was to Palanteer's detriment. He changed his mind about

detriment. He changed his mind about that after taking the company public. Um

>> then, he, was, just, like, not, only, is, it good that I I can you know devote myself to paler in a way that someone with a wife and kids wouldn't be able to but he was just like

you know this is how I live my life and you know I'm not making any apology apologies for it. So you know it's you know that's kind of how he's ended up you know and and I would say that you

know he lives life as he wants to. And I

would, also, say, this,, I, mean,, and, and and you know, you've studied tech executives, you watch them closely.

>> I, think, there, are, some, who, are,, it's very clear, are fundamentally not happy people despite their success.

>> Yes, >> he's, he's, a, happy, person., He's, content with his life.

>> And, I, think, that's, another, key, point that needs to be understood. He likes

his life >> um, and, he's, living, it, as, he, wants., And

and and it's not even the money. Yes

the money has made it easier for him to live his life as he wants, but you know he's it's not like he lives a really lavish life despite all this money. Um

you know, he's got a lot of homes, but you know, the homes are not palatial.

You know, um, he hasn't he bought a plane. Um, you know, he leased one

plane. Um, you know, he leased one before, but it's not like he's buying up art. Not that I know of anyway. It's not

art. Not that I know of anyway. It's not

like, you know, he he kind of lives the way he did before. In fact, his cousin Matt Johnson said, you know, something I don't remember the exact quote, but he said, something, in the, fact, that, never has more money been wasted on one person

because he just he lives a kind of, you know, a fairly simple existence and and you know, but he is he's very happy living the way he does and and and and I think he's very content with this. It

goes to this quote that uh you have from Karp on page 204. I fantasized about being non-conforming, but I don't know how to do that. I just don't know how to do it. I don't know how it works. I

do it. I don't know how it works. I

wouldn't know how to be non-transgressive. I try I try really

non-transgressive. I try I try really hard. I really I do but it's not working

hard. I really I do but it's not working out. Um and that was that was like a

out. Um and that was that was like a shocking thing to hear from a CEO of a major company because I mean 2019 Palunteer was a major company and that's what I'm talking about. That's where you know it was like it was it you know this

was before the company had gone public and it's interesting too because you know you talk to him you talk to you know sham you talked to others with the company. I mean like even in 2019 when

company. I mean like even in 2019 when it seemed to be a you know a quite good company um you know had $40 billion valuation at that time you know um you

know they were just like they you know were still not sure the company was going to make it so you know there was still a fair amount of doubt in their minds um they weren't they they were not

sure they'd gotten to the other side of the river yet and and and so you know and when so when he says this I mean it was quite it was quite a shocking thing to hear. we were sitting in his New York

to hear. we were sitting in his New York office and he's saying this and and um but I think that's how he felt. I think

he felt like you know that the way he lived was probably a liability for the company. um you know that that you know

company. um you know that that you know he just was not you know your typical CEO and and and and you know who's living a different kind of life and and you, know, at least, you, know, maybe, in

Europe it wouldn't have been much of an issue but he saw it in you know in the United States as as a as a liability and and you know and and you know I don't I I know he wouldn't say that same thing

now he does you know it's just he doesn't you know he doesn't feel that way now I think he's much more comfortable with the choices he's made in life and as I said he is he's fundamentally a happy person.

>> The, other, co-founders,, Nathan, Gettings, Cohen, Longdale. Do you think their role

Cohen, Longdale. Do you think their role in Palunteer is not talked about enough?

>> Well,, it's, it's, interesting., I, mean, Cohen is obviously an integral part of the company, very important figure now.

Um, you know, he is and it's quite amazing like he's a guy who's never gotten out of startup mode. I mean, it's just like, you know, he he, you know wears the same jeans, the same black

you know, polo shirt, you know, he's like, you know, eats peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch. He still

pulls all nighters. I mean, like he is like in startup mode even though he himself is now a billionaire. Um, so and and and obviously very involved and

certainly with AIP integral part of the of the move into that. Um, Gettings, you know, he was, you know, very important to getting this thing off the ground. I

mean, you know, he and Cohen, you know you know, you >> built, the, first, prototype.

>> The, prototype., Exactly., And, Londale, was an important part of this, too. I mean

you know, it's interesting, you know one of the things, you know, because Panel J, as you know, for many years didn't have salespeople.

>> Yeah.

>> And, and, um, you, know,, it, was, a, conscious decision. Um you partly it was because

decision. Um you partly it was because they recognized from the start that they had the best salesperson in the world in Karp. Um, so there was that, but it was

Karp. Um, so there was that, but it was also because, you know, they understood you know, early on that, you know if you have salespeople, they kind of take over the culture and and and in Paler's

case, that would have been bad because they're trying to make a very sophisticated product. Um, you know

sophisticated product. Um, you know they're trying to, you know, build this you know, very sophisticated software that that, you know, goes beyond stuff that's in the market that includes these privacy controls and all that sort of

stuff. you bring in sales people

stuff. you bring in sales people they're going to get want to get product out the door and they're going to have you know, they're going to want um they're going to force you to push stuff out sooner than you want. And then, you know, you hear Karp talk about now he's

always talking about thin software. And

he sort of there's says there's, you know, there's a sort of inverse relationship. The more sales people a

relationship. The more sales people a company has, the thinner the software and and they understood this early on but when you hear Stonesdale say it now it's like, okay, that makes sense. But

then you realize the guy was like 21 or 22 at the time.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, that's, some, business, chops, you, have to say. I mean to understand this as

to say. I mean to understand this as like a kid at that age. I mean they were all kids. I mean Karp was older but like

all kids. I mean Karp was older but like you know you know hearing this from Lansdale now like I said I mean you realizing he was like 21 years old at the time and understanding okay sales people could really screw us that was

pretty impressive. So you know and and

pretty impressive. So you know and and you know he had obviously a big role.

told me he he you know the the software platform that that didn't succeed was Metropolis and and he was he was behind that and that's not that was not you know

the product itself was was not really a problem. I mean people who you know used

problem. I mean people who you know used it or familiar with it said it was actually pretty good but it was just it was you know small ball and that was a mistake and and and and you know and and car pulled the plug on it but you know

>> this, was, for, the, financial, firms correct.

>> That, was, exactly, right., That, was, exactly right and and then you know and it was you know it was very painful because you had some very talented people working on that and and then you know they all subsequently left um you know that was a

setback and I mean so you know this company is you know it's it's yeah you know we look at it now and say tremendous but you know it was a long road to get here. One thing that a lot

of people have been uh trying to understand about Palunteer is at its core, you know, Karp talks very philosophically about an ontology

because it is a philosophical term. In

fact, one of the reasons I got into Palunteer is because I studied philosophy in high school and ontology continental philosophy, Emanuel Kant like I recognized that term for so many years and then I'm lurking at Palenter.

Like they describe their data as an ontological structure of a system.

>> Yeah., H, how, do, you, think, Karp, has, more broadly taken philosophical ideas and connected them to the business to the point where a shareholder letter comes

out every quarter written with all these uh quotes from German philosophers. Some

people are turned off by it like dude just give me the numbers I don't get.

Yeah.

>> Someone, like, me, and, a, lot, of, other retail investors like oh my goodness he's speaking in a way that's almost prof almost like you would study these letters, in, a hundred, years, in, Harvard school.

>> How, do, you, think, about, the, philosophy, in the business in of itself? Well, I think it's, it's, it's it's, an, important, part, of it. I mean, listen, I mean, you know

it. I mean, listen, I mean, you know again, no background in computer science and yet, you know, there was this sort of this overlap with ontology being part of it. I mean, that, you know, the sort

of it. I mean, that, you know, the sort of, you know, the way that, you know the the engineers thought about, you know, organizing data and and and sort of constructing a worldview, you know

it wasn't that it wasn't as big of a leap for him.

>> Yeah.

>> As, it, might, have, seemed., So, and, and, you talk to the you know you talk to you know you know some of the guy some of the software engineers who were there

from the early days. Um Aki Jane for instance would say that you know the way he wrote the way he thought you know even if they were sort of you know talking different languages there was a

sort of technical structure to the way karp t thought yes and talked and wrote that that resonated with them. they

could see something very similar to the how they thought about things, how they addressed problems, how they tackled things. So internally it was, you know

things. So internally it was, you know you know, there was, you know, a certain overlap there that that that, you know that made it possible for him to connect

with these people and they with him. Um

you know, that that might not have been apparent. You just kind of look at this

apparent. You just kind of look at this and say, how is this guy going to run this company? Um, so that you know

this company? Um, so that you know how's he going to talk to these software engineers? And so there was a sort you

engineers? And so there was a sort you know you were not from completely different worlds and and so and obviously you know look it it's you know

he he comes from this background in the humanities. Um I think it was very

humanities. Um I think it was very helpful for Palanteer in the sense that look he you know he thinks this is someone who really could think through the implications of the work on a

broader scale than you know you're talking about a bunch of young software engineers. I mean besid with coding I

engineers. I mean besid with coding I mean these are guys we're not thinking about you know it's important to point out that you know okay we now talk all about privacy civil liberties I mean those were very important discussions

when pounder came along because of course it was after 911 after the patriot act these are real concerns but I mean this was before I mean this a couple years before the iPhone is introduced I mean before you know just

this explosion in personal data so these guys are like really ahead of the curve in some ways and you know Karp was very uh alert from the start to the to the

risks and to the to the importance of you know sort of you know creating this powerful software but you know also we need to do it in a way that can protect privacy and civil liberties and

>> and, only, a, philosopher, would, have, that much of a focus at 35 years old. Well

to think to to think about these broader implications to understand, you know that that and and to be able to talk and I think it also I think in some way his involvement with the company, the fact that he was CEO probably gave some

people some assurance.

>> Yeah., that, that, you, know,, okay,, this, you know, this wasn't going to be just some totally nefarious product and and and that there was someone at the

switch, if you will, um who who understood the risks here and and and and and want to address them and and of course, I mean, the way he thinks about things. So, you know, like he has this

things. So, you know, like he has this idea that, you know, well, you know because, the, the the, discussion, after 9/11 and when when Teal has this idea for, you know, okay, maybe we can, you know, you know, picking up from what

PayPal did, maybe we can develop software that can help the government fight terrorism and and then, you know make use of the data they've got and and you know, Karp has this, you know, idea

you know, well, you know, there's the technology side of this and and the technology should be very powerful and and and you know, help you know intelligence analysts find those needles

in the hay stack but you know like you know how do we protect civil liberties and privacy while doing that and Karp has this idea that there's you know this sort of you know technological solution

to the problem posed by the technology you could actually embed in the software these controls and as he put it it's like you know this sort of Hegelian solution as he put it you know so these

two seeming opposites and you kind of come to you know a synthesis where you could actually produce produce software that would allow the analyst to get the information they need but at the same

time protect you know the data of millions of innocent people who should not be pulled into the drag net and that was his idea and and and I think there was you know the idea that you know he

thought about this as sort of this Hegelian solution and and maybe it's a little simplistic but I think that's kind of how he thought and about you know and and and and where you might see the you know the philosophic background

coming into play from early on and and and and listen, I mean it's it's you know it you know he is a you know he's a credentialed scholar um you know he he

worked for a time with the most celebrated living philosopher Jurgen Habrammas. Yeah.

Habrammas. Yeah.

>> And, and, certainly, in, Europe, I, mean, this was a big deal. I mean, you know, like you know, I remember talking to Tom Enders, the uh the former CEO of Airbus and he was just like, you know, he was

talking he and Carp had gotten to know each other, Davos, and then then Palenter comes in to help them with a production glitch with the A350, and that's the beginning of the relationship. And Enders, you know, you

relationship. And Enders, you know, you know, you know, Enders is just like, you know, he's talking about said it was one of the, best, decisions, he, made, at, Airbus to bring in Palanteer, but you know we're just talking about carp. He said

"Yeah, I knew he studied with this very important philosopher. It's a huge

important philosopher. It's a huge calling card in Europe." and and so forth. And so

forth. And so >> it, makes, it, easier, to, do, business, in Europe. You

Europe. You >> it, it, seemed, to, it, made, him, a, source, of great intrigue not just to other CEOs but also European press and and and and it's certainly a figure here. I mean you look at the the interest in his

dissertation the you know there's been stuff written about it. Obviously that's

a function of the fact that he's become so prominent and rich but I think it you know it's it's certainly a little different and and and how he thinks about things is very different. Um, I

would say, you know, just as a more general comment, I mean, you know conversations with him are really interesting. You've spoken to him and

interesting. You've spoken to him and and you know, you know, he likes to argue. We've argued about a lot of

argue. We've argued about a lot of stuff. He gets, you know, he gets

stuff. He gets, you know, he gets annoyed if you don't argue like, you know, he and I would having conversations and I'd be saying this he'd be saying that, and I'd say something like, well, you know, who cares what I think? This isn't about me.

And I would sort of like annoy him. He

was like, no, let's let's go at it. you

know and you know and I think you know this is you know he comes from the SC the academic world you know the world of ideas and and and this is you know he you know this is who he is it's you know

and and and it's a differentiator it's a business it's a differentiator in the business world certainly >> it, really, is, I, mean, earlier, this, year, at one, of the, API, cons, I, met, him, and, uh, the the first thing he asked when he saw me

was a a philosophical question >> and, I, I, just, I, was, like, let's, go, for, a walk I want to hear your perspective and security guards were like, "Carp, we want to go for a walk. We got to go this way. We cannot just go out." He's like

way. We cannot just go out." He's like "All right, I'm cool with us." And then so we're out there and we're going for a walk and we're in the elevator and I'm listening to his and like the fact that he even cared about my opinion.

>> Yeah., Yeah.

>> You, know,, he's, he's, an, inquisitive, guy who it doesn't matter if you're the, you know, some random engineer that just joined Palanteer, you're the CEO of Airbus, he wants to know your perspective. No

perspective. No >> no,, he's, interested, in, what, other, people think and and how he thinks is quite interesting. And you know as I said

interesting. And you know as I said we've spent a lot of time together over the last you know five six years and in a lot of conversations and you and I told him this at one point it was very

interesting you know we have some fundamental disagreements about stuff and and enjoy you know battling and and so forth but you know I would find myself you know on the drive home or on

the train ride home if I'd seen him in Washington New York I'd find myself like kind of continuing the argument. Yeah.

Of course, he's not there. We're just

continuing the argument and you know and I think that you know that is like you and I found it quite interesting and and I think it's you know sign that maybe I like arguing too but you he gives you

stuff to think about. He thinks about things in a very different way and and and you talk to people who knew him in college and in law school. Um he thinks about things in a very different way and in an often very interesting way and

even if you don't agree with him, it gives you something to think about and it you know forces you to sort of challenge your own to think through your own, you, know, ideas, and, and and, so, forth.

sort of, you know, sort of steelmanning to use one of his favorite phrases these days, steel manning your own arguments and and and that's quite interesting.

And again, I don't think that's very common in um the business world and certainly not at the level where he is.

I, mean,, most, of these, guys, really, only like to hear themselves talk and and and um are not really interested in having people push back against their ideas or

engaging in in battles of ideas. And he

still has that. um he didn't go into academia, but he still has some of that spirit.

>> He's, mentioned, in, a, in, an, interview, a couple months ago of pounders marketing cap going into the the many many of trillions. Uh do you think that he loves

trillions. Uh do you think that he loves the success? He loves the not the

the success? He loves the not the financial rewards, but rather the people like me that ended up buying in early and made a name for myself and like financially changed my life. Um do you

think he loves that part of the story?

Do you think he wants that to keep going? And do you think he also loves

going? And do you think he also loves that the analysts, the professionals that got it wrong are are so wrong that he looks so right and it almost is this like victory of a lifetime that he

proved wrong.

>> Yeah., Well,, I, think, he, certainly,, you know, feels very vindicated and, you know, he is, you know, he is happily spiking the football these days and he's not going to stop. um you know he's like

you know he was very mean you know he's had a he's you know he is you know been down on institutional investors

um for many many years this goes back to the rough reception he received on Sand Hill Road you know when you know going out to try to raise money for Palanteer and basically they all said no some were

nicer about it than others and so that kind of you know you gave him you know some host hility towards institutional investors that then carried over to Wall Street analysts certainly after the company goes public. And listen, the stock was not doing well.

>> Yeah.

>> Company, hadn't, turned, a, profit., You're

18 years in and it still hasn't turned a profit. And so, you know, it's not like

profit. And so, you know, it's not like the skepticism was totally unfounded but you know, he felt that in contrast to people like you, Wall Street analyst didn't understand Palanteer and we're never going to understand it and he was done trying to explain it to them. So

there is this victory lap that you know he's sort of on now and then he feels vindicated and you know he's you know he's not going to stop dunking on them for a while yet is my guess. But I would

also say that you know I think he believes that Palanteer's best days are still to come. I mean you know because the thing is you know it's like look at he's he's in his late 50s now. He's

keeping up this crazy schedule and yeah he can it's easier for him in a sense because he doesn't have a wife and kids and so he can live like this, but it's still a pretty a pretty backbreaking schedule. I mean, he's rarely in the

schedule. I mean, he's rarely in the same bed, you know, more than one, you know, one or two nights at any time on the road constantly.

>> But, I, think, it's, because, he, loves, what he does. I mean, this company is his

he does. I mean, this company is his life's work. And I also think because he

life's work. And I also think because he believes, you know, the desk the the best is is still to come for Palanteer and he wants to be there for it. You

know, as much as he likes to be out in the cross country skiing trails, I don't, you know, you know, I think he thinks, you know, it's 20 years to get to this point, he feels like, you know you know, the the best is is is still to

happen and and he wants to be there for it.

>> Last, question, for, you,, Michael., Again,

thank you for all the time you spent with me today. Uh, so I saw this last night and I was uh well I I I don't know if I should say thank you, but uh my my mom was definitely pretty happy about

this. I didn't know my name would be in

this. I didn't know my name would be in the book.

>> It's, there., It's, there.

>> It, is, there, in, the, epilogue., And, uh, what you wrote is exactly correct. When you

arrived that uh that afternoon in December, Karp and I were in conversation and >> um, you, know, then, another, person, came, up.

And so first of all, it was just really cool for me to to see my name get immortalized in a book like this. And so

I do thank you for that. That means a lot. And I guess the the only reason I

lot. And I guess the the only reason I was there for you to even write about that situation is because the company has embraced the retail investor and uh you know particular >> you're, you're, I, mean, you, are, obviously

you know you are you know obviously the the the, the, best, known, you, know, among retail investors of Palent you know those who have gotten you know on board

with Palante or those who have you know become carp fanboys if you will. you are

the best know you're and and sort of you know you symbolize sort you know I mean because this is a I mean this is a really important part of the story I mean you know he you know he just >> which, was, going, to, be, my, question, by, the way why do you think the retail investor

embraces Palanteer that's my last question >> well, because, I, think, I, think, they, find him to be a an authentic figure a figure of of you know they find him entertaining he's very funny you see him

on TV he just says what he thinks so there's the authenticity factor and I He would say that they understood the Palunteer story in a way that analysts didn't. I mean, you know, and they

didn't. I mean, you know, and they understood in a very simple way. This is

the company on the side of the United States and the West and and and and they wanted to see it succeed and and and you know, were willing to put their money where their where their sentiments lay and and and you know, and and and you

know, believe that the company would succeed and um you know, bought his you know, explanation for you know, what the company was doing um you know, where

where it saw opportunities.

And and I think you know it's you know at a time when institutional investors were skeptical, Wall Street analysts were very skeptical. You know there was

this, community, of, of of, retail, investors who you know said Papa Carp, Daddy Karp all that sort of stuff and just you know he liked that. He found that, you know very endearing and

um excuse me, he he found that very appealing and um more importantly than just the the the ego gratification, it was, you know, the fact that there was

this community of investors who who bought the story.

>> Yeah.

>> And, who, said,, you, know,, okay,, yeah,, the stocks are seven or eight now, but I think it's going up. Um I think there is something to this. um you know companies that you know organizations that use the software swear by it. I mean, you know

you guys knew in a way that, you know you knew I mean, when you've got 40,000 people at Airbus using the software on a daily basis, product is legit >> right?

>> And, and, and, you, know,, and, and, even, if you know, Wall Street analysts were were discounting that or just not paying it you know, giving it the the weight it deserved, there was an investment

community that understood that that's a pretty significant achievement and that spoke not just to the quality of the software, but to the potential for this technology. um that if it did if it was

technology. um that if it did if it was that integral, if it had beencome that integral to a major major corporation and if it was that integral to the US military that there was a lot of upside

here., Um, and, and, and and, you, know, that

here., Um, and, and, and and, you, know, that it was worth putting some of your money in at 78 15 25 $100.

>> Exactly.

>> So, I, think, that, was, a, big, part, of, it.

And obviously I mean you know you you emerged as someone who who got on board in a very public way and and you know you see it with the earning with the earnings call. I mean you know it's it's

earnings call. I mean you know it's it's the retail investors he wants to hear from. Yeah.

from. Yeah.

He'll throw the mic to a few, you know Wall Street analysts, a few investment bank analysts, but it's the retail investors and and he says, you know, and you know, this is, you know, he says now, I mean, when he, you know, talked

you know, when the company was in, you know, you know, got into the S&P 500, he releases that video and he said this belongs to two groups, Palunteerians and

our retail investors >> right?, That's,, you, know,, that's,, you

>> right?, That's,, you, know,, that's,, you know, obviously the professional investment community is now very heavily in the stock and and and they've gotten they've bought the story, but you know you know, he has, you know, clearly not

forgotten who bought the story when it was a harder story to buy.

>> All, right,, Michael,, last, question, for you. What do you want people to take

you. What do you want people to take away from the book over the lifetime of people reading it?

>> Well,, I, think, there, are, a, couple different things. I think it's I mean, I

different things. I think it's I mean, I think it's a really interesting business story. I mean you and you can see you

story. I mean you and you can see you know you know the importance of this as a business story not just in the fact that it's you know the company has this you know you know this massive valuation

now but in what what it has spawned I mean the number of companies that have come out of Palanteer and partic you can also see it in in the the the explosion in interest in defense tech I mean

Palanteer paved the way for that so you know now everyone talks about defense tech the pivot to patriotic capital and which is quite literally the spawn of Palanteer. I mean three of the

Palanteer. I mean three of the co-founders coming out of Palanteer. So

I mean this is you know Palanteer's impact um you know cannot be overstated at this point. You see other companies now other tech companies embracing the

forward deployed model. Open AI and others, you know, it didn't begin with Palunteer, but they sort of reinvented this role and and now you see, you know other companies saying, you know, this

actually makes sense, sending engineers out to work with clients and finding out not what, you know, what you know, can you can you can your business be bent to our software, but can our software be bent to your business, right? And you

know, it seems kind of fundamental, but Palenterer paved the way for that. So

it's a quite amazing business story. And

of course, the most amazing aspect of the business story is the fact that this guy with no background in business, no background in computer science has successfully led this company to a $400

billion valuation. And um that's a

billion valuation. And um that's a remarkable business story. I think you can also say that um you know to to on the business political front um if you

want to understand the moment we're living in um this is a book worth reading. Um and and you know uh

reading. Um and and you know uh Palanteer is at the center of everything right now. Um you think about the things

right now. Um you think about the things that have dominated the headlines over the last 10 months. You know Doge, ICE Israel AI is

>> in, all, of, this., It's, at, the, center, of everything. I think if you want to

everything. I think if you want to understand, you know, you want to understand this moment, you need to know something about Palunteer. And you

cannot understand Palanteer without understanding this very idiosyncratic and complex figure at its helm, Alex Karp. So I think, you know, this is, you

Karp. So I think, you know, this is, you know, I think it's it's, you know, it's better to be lucky than good. And I

think the timing is really good for this book, I think. And then um you know I would just say that you know it's it's you know I think you know how he arrived

at you know his evolution politically whether he's gone full MAGA or threearters MAGA or what have you. you

know, this has been a very interesting evolution and and and and one of the stories of this moment is how, you know Silicon Valley, you know, turned to Trump and and it's embrace of Trump this

time and >> Karp's, part, of, that, story,, a, major, part of that story, but I think his journey there is is a lot more interesting and and a lot more revealing than perhaps some of these other figures. And I

think, you know, you, as I said, you want to understand the moment we're living through. Um, I I I think I think

living through. Um, I I I think I think this book, if I can say in all modesty is a good way of doing that.

>> I, love, it., Michael,, thank, you, so, much.

Uh, it means the world for you to take some time and talk to the audience, an audience that has been captivated by the Palunteer and Alex Karp story for the past five years. Deeply, deeply, deeply appreciate it.

>> Listen,, thank, you, very, much, for, having me on. It was great to talk to you.

me on. It was great to talk to you.

>> Awesome., Thank, you,, Michael., Appreciate

it.