Annie Leibovitz on Touring with The Rolling Stones, Insecurity, and John and Yoko | Fashion Neurosis

Hi, come in.

>> Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Annie

Lieitz, can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? Well, I knew for

particular clothes? Well, I knew for sure I was going to wear what I wear almost every single day, which is um I

have about 10 pairs of these pants and 15 of these shirts that um I had I actually had made I was we were

doing something on the Peninsula Peninsula Hotel in Hong Kong and and everyone kept saying, "Oh, you have to have shirts made downstairs. they will

make them overnight for you, you know.

And uh so I had um it was just too exciting the idea of having a shirt made overnight, you know. So so um literally they made these these these shirts

overnight and um so this one is 20 years old, the one I have on is it's and they get softer and softer. They're the

cotton. It's just amazing. And um so the basic thing that I wear almost every single day and everyone thinks, "Oh, she wears black all the time, but I'm just wearing

it's like it can get dirty and you don't have to worry, you know, you can spill coffee on it. You can, you know, I mean, I I am getting a little tired of it now,

but um and when I had my children, I um you know, I wanted, you know, to wear, you know, colors, you know, more something more. They love color, don't

something more. They love color, don't they? Children,

they? Children, >> they Yeah, they they definitely I tried for like two or three years and then I went back to this because it's so

>> I think it really is about um not wanting to feel for me.

>> I don't want to feel I I don't want anything I don't want to feel I don't want to worry about myself. I I

don't want to be out of myself and I don't want to worry about my body. I

don't want to worry about um anything. I

don't want to worry about it. I I just I just And then when you travel and you can just pack, you know, five of the same pants, same pants, five different shirts, and you just um And then every

now and then you have to dress it up a little bit, you know? So, um I mean this shirt, I mean, I have to show you the I wore I wore it specially for you, you know, Bella, because it it's um I'm

trying to save it. It's like the the sleeve just went on it >> and the um and the back is is has stitching all in it trying to hold it

from falling apart. But um you know I love that aspect of it that it gets older and but it it really is the pants the pants are based on a Donna Karen

pair of pants from the 80s >> that I had copied by Christine Billing in um in New York >> and it has Lyra in it and they just um

so they move you know you >> when you're really photographing your room almost dancing and you just don't want to I just don't want to think about

what's ammy you know um >> that's pretty much >> but you know then every now and then you meet someone like Daniel Roseberry and

you and you're admiring his corduroy jacket and pants so beautiful that's his black pair of pants and black shirt and

he wears it every single day and he has like you know maybe 10 or 20 um I mean anyway that's what he wears every single

day to work and um I and I I I said maybe I could have a new uniform and and um and I asked him well he said I'm going to make you I'm going to make

you um you know a suit and it has pants to it um and but I've sort of fallen in love with a jacket cuz I can put it on and I

feel a little bit more dressed up or something. It's really nice and it's

something. It's really nice and it's great with the dark gray of your shirt and trousers and it just sort of the color seems to >> deep black.

>> I Yeah, cuz the the deep gray is very good and it seems to suit you. It's less

contrasty and it's >> more nuanced with the with a dark burgundy colorone.

I was talking to my daughter though who surprised me here in the hotel um yesterday um and and she she said wait a

minute mom why aren't you wearing your pajamas to to balance because basically that is really the truth since co

>> I just when I'm upstate in in my place upstate I don't some days I don't get out of my pajamas I just love my pajam I just love my pajamas and my children and

and and people who know me give me pajamas for for Christmas and you know for my birthday and I I love pajamas. I

I I love working in pajamas and editing in pajamas and um so these are kind of a kind of more >> glorified version of of the pajamas.

Yeah.

>> You mentioned you were wearing a a bra.

>> You have to make pajamas, Bella. I

actually did make some for Marks and Spencers just >> just now.

>> I'll see if they I see if I can get some. I'll show you after.

some. I'll show you after.

>> Oh my god, I'm excited.

>> Yeah, I'm obsessed with pajamas as well.

>> I know. So, how come you're dressed up today?

>> I always need I need something some transition before before working. So I I have a ritual of changing slightly out

of pajamas otherwise >> it's too easy to go back to bed which I don't actually like going back to bed but uh but you mentioned that you were wearing a bra today which you said

>> no I know I like I that's the best thing about the pajamas. I mean, I do, you know, I have to say sometimes if I go all day long in the pajamas upstate, it's like I'll take a shower and and

change back into another pair of pajamas, you know, because I can't go to sleep wearing the sink. I love clean clothes.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm obsessed with, you know, when I was starting to make a better living, I I just love I I have to wear clean clothes every single day. I mean, I love clean

clothes. So, I could never go back to

clothes. So, I could never go back to sleep in the same pajamas that I was wearing. So,

wearing. So, >> same.

>> Um, yes. No, no, I was bringing up that um I'm I'm not a big fan of >> I have to wear a bra, but I don't I I don't like wearing bras, you know? I

feel like um I keep trying to find one and I just need to do a little more research that's more comfortable or something, but I you know, at when along with those pajamas, there are no I don't

wear a bra. Yeah.

>> So, yeah. No, I'm like, should I take the bra off? Not in front of the >> But no, I I don't like bras. It's like I feel like, wait a minute,

I love bras because for ages my breasts were too small to bother with a bra and then they got like a millimeter bigger and I quickly got like a bra. was so

exciting, you know, remind me of school and all these girls and their underwear, which I was always intrigued by.

>> No, I like um I lost some weight, so now now the bras are riding up. They're all

like all going This one is is riding up, you know? It's like this. It's um

you know? It's like this. It's um

Anyway, it's funny.

Girls being women.

>> Yeah. And your photographer has taken some of the most recognized images in the world. and your name is famous but

the world. and your name is famous but your work is the superstar and Gloria Steinum said she's the tallest most

authorative unsure person that I've ever seen and your work is so authoritative and I wonder >> you pulled um >> what are you unsure about

>> I I love Gloria Stein >> I wor I mean she's just marvelous >> I was telling you earlier that I um with

this book that that came out on the >> a reprinting of the first volume of of Susan Santag's um >> well our collaboration on on on a book

on women um from 1999 uh and and then we it was you know Hillary Clinton had asked me um she wanted to commemorate the book in some

way uh she she reached out to me o over a year ago and um and I thought about, you know, it could be nice to reprint it

because it's it's out of print and um so I sat down and looked at it and um really liked it. I don't I don't think

of it as really um a time capsule, but I think of it as as a moment uh in some in some way. But I realized that I had all

some way. But I realized that I had all this work since 1999 that you know not not that I ever thought I was going to do a book on women again. Um and I

thought you know maybe we can make a companion book to go with um with the first book and um we threw it together in in the last year and of course I

immediately went to Gloria and asked her if she would um you know consider writing for it. It was interesting because uh

I reread Gloria's essay this morning um when I got up because I've been struggling with trying to talk about the book and uh I don't really

I don't I don't really feel like I'm qualified to to you know as a word I'm not a wordssmith to be able to talk

about these photographs other than um how proud I am of of of the women in in in in these books um and and impressed

with them, you know, especially in the second book, you know, and um so I, you know, I'm not Shimamanda Adishi and

I'm not Gloria Steinum and I'm certainly not Susan Santag. So, I'm like, you know, but but the the Gloria the Gloria Steinum, what I'm trying to get at is

when when I asked Gloria if she would write something, she sent me something over that was kind of about me.

>> And I I I just called her up and I said, "Gloria, I no, we we need to know. I want to know. Are

we okay?" You know, they took Ro versus Wade away. You know, are we okay? Are we

Wade away. You know, are we okay? Are we

is what's going You know, what's what's going on? You have to write about

going on? You have to write about yourself. Please write about yourself.

yourself. Please write about yourself.

>> And um you know, Gloria had an abortion and um and and she did write about it previously. So, she wrote about she

previously. So, she wrote about she really opened herself up in in in this um you know, in in this essay. Mhm.

>> And it's it's so good. I I have to do a talk tomorrow night and and I'm just going to I'm just going to read from the essay. It's so it's so good. It's

essay. It's so it's so good. It's

interesting because I loved her saying about, you know, you're the tallest unsure person because you just cited these

women and, you know, you're every bit as eloquent as as they are using a different medium. And that is good for

different medium. And that is good for people who who don't read and they like to see things and it's so striking and and informative and and

thoughtprovoking. So um and it is they

thoughtprovoking. So um and it is they they are the most beautiful books and then it's wonderful to have these essays

in as well. So sometimes it's hard to to read unless you're provoked into reading and then suddenly you're able to read

and um and I think your work is very effective in that and and I know you were one of six children

and I wondered how you got attention.

>> No, we didn't. We were abandoned. We

were totally abandoned. No, no, no. We

were like, you know, um there's a photograph of my parents in um photographers's life that is >> I'm I'm visiting them in Florida and

they're in the kitchen and and I walk into the kitchen. I must have been standing in the doorway for like about 10 minutes or something and they they never really turned around, but you

know, I said, "Oh my god, this is this is this is the picture of >> of my of my parents." Um, you know, I think my mother just liked babies. She

just kept having babies. But, um,

>> but she she was a force. She was really um an amazing, you know, she really um brought us up all interested in in art

and being creative. And, you know, she >> studied with Martha Graham and >> um, amazing. you know, I think um

she was just uh you know, she made us all take piano lessons. I mean, we all we you know, I think I knew early on I was going to be,

you know, in in art in some way. um you

know so yes there yes I was one of six but um you know it was it was actually a great childhood uh even being abandoned you know but we always knew we were

loved we we really always knew we were loved >> um I just think my mother probably shouldn't really have had children on some level >> because she wasn't she didn't really

want to be a mother I think she really wanted you know more >> and um >> to be an artist.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Cuz you you talk about her being a dancer and then you said dance can't be photographed and I wondered what you meant by that because you have done

that. You have managed.

that. You have managed.

>> No, I've photographed um you know poses or >> Yeah.

>> Um I mean well that's what's so beautiful about it as an art is that it's euphoria like that you know it's just in the air. It's like u um

had many conversations about filming dance and um apparently there was a there was a a woman who snuck a camera

into, you know, the Met, you know, and sat in the balcony and and filmed dance from, you know, from the balcony, you know, and and

those films are amazing of dance, you know, but I I think I think I don't know. It's just It's not It hasn't

know. It's just It's not It hasn't really But that's what's so wonderful about it. You can't really

about it. You can't really >> It's a bit like fashion shows actually cuz when you film them, they >> they don't have that impact.

>> Yeah. I had no idea about fashion.

>> Yeah.

>> Until I started, you know, doing that work for Vogue. And um you know, it was always sort of the low man on the totem pole for me as far as as far as

photography was. I mean, of course, I

photography was. I mean, of course, I as a young photographer, you know, I I looked at work from Europe and and and New York, you know, you know, Gerdan and

>> Yeah.

>> Helmet Newton and uh Avdon and Irving Penn and I mean the fashion photographers, you know, then you go back into history to Styen and Beaton and >> Yeah.

>> and and and and all that in incredible work. So you admired it, but it wasn't

work. So you admired it, but it wasn't like something as a as a as a photographer who who grew up with, you know, or or studied Robert Frank and

Cardier Brazant. It was not like

Cardier Brazant. It was not like something >> that you aspired to be as a fashion photographer. But um but but the first

photographer. But um but but the first couture I did um for Anna Winter which was um Kate Moss and Sean Combmes

>> in Paris.

>> I and with Grace Codington if you can imagine.

>> Gosh.

>> And I went >> and I they didn't tell me to go to the fashion shows but I did go and I saw oh my god this is this is this is art. I

mean, this is >> I I I I I had I had no idea. I had no idea till you sit in those shows and see this work go down and But it's not

filmed very well. No. Ever.

>> It doesn't seem to have no idea.

>> Yeah. It doesn't have that.

>> It doesn't make you crazy the way when you're watching it, you have this sense of something extraordinary has been made and is being shown. And in that moment,

it's so intense >> and then it it kind of stays. And yeah,

cuz it's interesting you said um you know, I never imagined I'd get fashion, but or I'd be into fashion, but you really get as soon as you started

photographing it, you you got it entirely and then went with the >> with the grandeur of it and the >> Well, I went all over the place with it.

I didn't take it seriously to begin with. Beia Fightler was a very very

with. Beia Fightler was a very very important art director that I she seemed to >> you know she of course she gave Diane Arb her work >> did she

>> at Harper's Bizaarre I mean she was very close with Diane Arb >> um but she was she she did all those incredible issues at Harper Harper's

Bazaar with um uh Ruth Anel and you know Jean Shrimp in the blinking eye and um she was incredible but she really mentored ed me um and told me if I was

going to do fashion that you had to see you you could shoot any way you want, but you you had to see the clothes.

Yeah.

>> You know, and um >> so it already came with some rules to it, you know. So

>> um which um >> I made my best. I mean I I I stayed to that rule.

>> Yeah. Um

I I definitely and there are people that you photograph um in fashion like when I photograph Rihanna um >> that was it. It was like being on tour

with the Rolling Stones in 1975 as far as I'm concerned. I mean she loves fashion. M she's

fashion. M she's just um so smart and brilliant and you know um

and what she did with being pregnant is you know she took the Demi Moore idea and totally blew that out of out of the water. I mean she's just such a

water. I mean she's just such a brilliant incredible person. I've tried

to write about photographing her, but I I it's really like being, you know, taken into this

>> this this this world. Um, it's few and far between. So, I I think I'm headed

far between. So, I I think I'm headed back to portraits and stories.

I I I admire the designers. They're they are like

the designers. They're they are like great artists. with Beer Fighter. You

great artists. with Beer Fighter. You

said that she told you had to edit your work and I wondered how that translated. What did you do when she said that to you?

>> Well, she said I had to learn how to edit my work. I didn't know how to edit my work. I I was I'd been working for

my work. I I was I'd been working for Rolling Stone for like almost 13 years.

12. Well, like probably 11 12 years at that point.

>> And I would just bring my work in because I would be like a child saying, "Oh, look what I did." You know?

and she said, "Anna, you have to edit your work. You have to you can't just

your work. You have to you can't just bring it all in, you know, like that."

>> And and it really was work to learn how to edit cuz she could edit.

>> She would edit in 10 minutes and then she would >> sort of sit me down and I have to go through it and try to, you know, try to do what she did. It

took me, you know, a couple hours to go to go through it the way the way she went through it. But I I've come out the other end of it. I'm actually a good editor now.

>> Yeah.

>> And I don't worry about how much I shoot or, you know, cuz you And funny this >> this time out, no one's really asked me how many pictures do I take before I But

that was a question that would be asked.

Um, I don't really care. I mean, it's like it's just like sometimes I shoot >> and to make it look like I'm shooting just, you know, so but I know I'm not

shooting. I know I'm not really getting,

shooting. I know I'm not really getting, you know, what what what can be working >> you getting closer to the thing, you

know, is your shot when you're shooting and not shooting.

>> I mean, it it's it's different every single time. I don't know. My my

single time. I don't know. My my

photographs are not really I think still leftover from those early um personal repotage, you know, ideas of Cardi B or Robert Frank.

They really are.

>> They're more pulled back. You know, I I I like being somewhere and an environment and showing where you are.

If you can be somewhere, can't always be somewhere. I'm a terrible I'm a terrible

somewhere. I'm a terrible I'm a terrible studio photographer. I I really don't

studio photographer. I I really don't like the studio. It's It feels too uh scary to me.

>> God, >> it's really interesting. Yeah.

>> It's just you and you and the person and then and then then you have to make it up even more. You sometimes you get so tired of making it up. You don't want to make it up.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> You don't want to make it up. which is

why I like to go.

Um I have It's so funny cuz um I have to do I'm doing something with um with someone in in in January and she said I don't

want to go outside. It's going to be too cold, you know, because my shoots have been likened to an outwardbound experience, you know, like because I, you know, like I should just shut shut

my my you know, my work down in the winter, you know, because it's just it's just too cold to go outside. Yeah.

>> Cuz your father was in the military in uh during the Vietnam War when everyone was out and about marching against it too. And um your first pictures I think

too. And um your first pictures I think were of people on the army base in the in the Philippines. And

>> you've done your research, Bella.

>> Oh, I always always I like to get fully immersed and feel your life.

>> Oh, no. I'm so No, Bella. I was so impressed. Really? But um

impressed. Really? But um

>> were your Rolling Stone photographs a version of protest pictures because they're so >> I was living in San Francisco. It was it

was um I was going to a school, the San Francisco Art Institute that had the GI Bill. Soldiers would come through there

Bill. Soldiers would come through there from Vietnam who, you know, um going to I was going to school with with with soldiers.

>> Yeah. that that want that were photographers who, you know, talked to me about their experiences of being out on on the, you know, on the front there and

basically not really holding it a gun, but holding their cameras and taking pictures of, you know, the flares going up at night or whatever. Um, no, it was

it was just part of um it was part of everything that was going on in San Francisco. I mean it was really so prevalent. I mean it was and there were pro protests every day. There

were you know like demonstrations um it was very much a way of life you know um in San Francisco. It was like you know or or are you going down to the demonstration down you know downtown you

know like you know it's what we it's what you kind of did. I mean, and and and you know, I was taught to to just photograph. You know, it it didn't

photograph. You know, it it didn't matter what >> you were really, you know, photographed.

You were it was really about seeing.

>> Yeah.

>> And um so it's true. wanted, you know, I had just

it's true. wanted, you know, I had just gone down to this demonstration in the middle of of San Francisco and and I brought the work the next day to to Rolling Stone magazine to see

>> and you know was you know I would take the work back to the school school dark room and um process the film and print and the same day. Um,

so Rolling Stone was was was impressed, I think, that >> yeah, >> that that could be done. But no, it was just it was just part of um I mean it

was Berkeley. Berkeley had um

was Berkeley. Berkeley had um it just seemed like it's what was going on all the time.

>> Yeah. Yeah. cuz you were 20 when you went into Rolling Stone magazine offices and uh showed your photographs and then you became their star photographer and

>> well I don't think it was quite that fast when it began it was like a foldup u newspaper and um it um they you know

understandably they were very interested in uh in writing and uh they had no sense of of >> of visual ual um you know they had no

sense of um photography or they they picked up a lot of pictures. They and

and and worse they they took photographs and and cut them up and made collages and things like that, you know, like you know they they didn't um >> they they didn't really understand the

visual side. They were totally a word

visual side. They were totally a word paper and um so you know over the years um

you know we all grew up together. It was

a young, very young Jan and Jane Winter.

Very young group. Um, you know, and um, and incredible writers, you know, like Hunter Thompson and Tom Wolf and Truman Capot even, you know, but I I remember

when Avdon did um the special issue on the he called it the family, which was really politics and the state of the world, you know, in in America at the time. the the whole

set of portraits and Yang Winner gave him the whole issue for those photographs. I I I I it was like it was it was really, you know, as

far as I'm concerned, a great moment.

The magazine had learned how to use um visuals and and and photography. And so

it was like it was just as I felt I felt just as successful with Avidon's, you know, special issue than >> Yeah. You know, I was so proud of um of

>> Yeah. You know, I was so proud of um of the magazine >> because you worked closely with Hunter S. Thompson and I wondered I mean

S. Thompson and I wondered I mean >> you were kind of the terrible twins and I wondered if you discussed ideas of what it would look like you know

>> when you were photographing the things of his stories or you didn't >> that I just have to laugh. No, no, we no one I don't think anyone really knew what

anyone else Yeah was doing really. It

was it was really kind of flying by the seat of your pants. And um and Hunter and I've talked I've written about Hunter a little bit in that work, but um you know he really liked to work by

himself. I mean he would push me away,

himself. I mean he would push me away, >> right? Um and um you know I say by I've

>> right? Um and um you know I say by I've said that by pushing me away I learned um you know how how to make my make my own way.

>> Yeah.

>> And at a certain point because originally I was sent out with writers and at a certain point I didn't want to go with writers any longer. I just

wanted to go on my own.

>> And um you because the writer had their idea and then I had my idea. And I

always thought those two ideas could go together, you know, they they didn't they weren't necessarily, you know, separate in some

way. Um, but you know, Hunter Yeah. No,

way. Um, but you know, Hunter Yeah. No,

Hunter was um very special, you know, insane person, brilliant genius and um

>> you know, >> because I I love the story about the Nixon story where he was he loathed him so much and then when he finally was

out, he couldn't write the piece and you did the whole story as a photographic, >> right? They were holding they were

>> right? They were holding they were holding 10 or 11 pages.

>> Yeah.

>> Um for for his story at at Rolling Stone and and they didn't know what to do and they just took my pictures and they ran them and and it was like shocking

really. But yeah. No, he

really. But yeah. No, he

you know I was at the White House and he was at the pool you know at his hotel you know um listening watch you know >> he never made it to the White House.

wasn't his style.

>> I mean, he isn't how he it isn't how he wrote.

>> Yeah.

>> So, >> because you photographed a lot of bands and musical stars and and then when the Rolling Stones went on tour and you decide to go with them and Yan Wena, the

editor of Rolling Stones said, "Don't go on tour with the Rolling Stones. Too

many people come back drug addicts." But

you went anyway. And

>> and and and I came back a drug addict.

Yeah.

What was your drug of choice?

>> No, I was it took me about eight years to get off the tour. No. Um, so so to to

to try to put more color to that story, >> um, you know, basically um, Robert Frank went on the tour with

Danny Seymour in 1972. Um,

>> really?

>> And he did a film called [ __ ] Blues.

>> Oh, yeah. And I was I was covering I covered I went to two or three cities on the 72 tour and I you know I couldn't believe believe I was that close to

Robert Frank you know I mean it was like you know he was like my hero and my god and um and you know one point he even picked up my camera and I was like

trembling you know like cuz he was you know >> it was Robert Frank you know um >> you know he was just I couldn't Divas.

So, the 75 tour came came rolling along and uh I got a call from MC Jagger asking if I would be the tour photographer and I thought, well, of

course, you know, Robert Frank can do it. I I want to go out and try to do it.

it. I I want to go out and try to do it.

You know, I I you know, I didn't know what I was going to do. I mean, I so naive. I mean, I I you know, they were

naive. I mean, I I you know, they were staying at as as they went from city to city, they were staying in these really great hotels. I brought my tennis

great hotels. I brought my tennis racket. I thought, you know, I'm going

racket. I thought, you know, I'm going to really take some some lessons from the, you know, the lead tennis guy at at each hotel and I'll improve my tennis

game. I I was really excited to like,

game. I I was really excited to like, you know, go on the tour and and of course, I never saw the light of day. I mean, I kind of immediately

day. I mean, I kind of immediately >> sort of went into their world.

>> I mean, I can really stand outside of myself and look at look at that work and and go, "Oh, oh, oh my god." You I mean, it's like I I just never put the camera

down. I I I shot all the time. Um the

down. I I I shot all the time. Um the

work is like this river. It's just the details incredible. Um the imagery is,

details incredible. Um the imagery is, you know, kind of incredible. It really

is >> amazing.

Um, and and it's it's this work of this very young I'm outside of myself looking at my young self thinking this this kind of it's it's my example to young

photographers >> of what you need when you first start.

you know, the kind of insanity, the kind of obsession, the kind of >> the verve, the energy, the the drive, the

>> you know, it it's it's a powerful set of pictures, you know, um that I didn't look at for years and years until years and years years later. Um

>> it's it's it's a really incredible uh example of of of that period and how I was photographing. Um but um yes, it definitely almost um

>> yeah, >> killed me, you know. Um I I thought at the time that in order to take a good picture, you really had to be

become one with your subject. You have

to get be more involved.

>> And what a stupid idea to to do this with abandoned men, you know? like it,

you know, it could have been more stupid, but I was young and crazy and um and um you know, it took me a while to I

mean I I wasn't used to something overtaking me.

>> Yeah.

>> And it took me a while to to get the right help to um you know, stop taking drugs. But once

I found the right >> help, it it's like within a month it was over.

>> That was it. It was like no more, you know. Um

know. Um >> cuz you said something about not wanting drugs to close you down, but to open you up. And I I wondered what what your

up. And I I wondered what what your favorite drug was to do that.

>> Oh, it was cocaine.

>> Cuz I never wanted to um you know, I just wanted to keep moving. Keep moving. But it it's it's it

moving. Keep moving. But it it's it's it totally um does a reverse thing at a certain point. It just, you know, it

certain point. It just, you know, it robs you of of everything. But I I have to say I it it definitely

having that experience um as a photographer and thinking that I had to become one with whatever I was

photographing. You know, I I definitely

photographing. You know, I I definitely rebuilt my stance on on that. I I

basically, you know, will never, you know, go to that extent. M

that extent. M >> uh where you give yourself up completely like that. Um

like that. Um you know just um I you know I'm I I definitely if if

you sometimes feel in my work just I'm just a step back or two.

It's it's because of that experience for sure.

>> Yeah.

>> You know I'm a passionate bookmaker and I just love I love books. It's really where my work is and so photographers's life had, you

know, had that for sure.

>> Is it okay if I have a glass?

>> Yes, please do. Yeah.

>> H Okay.

cuz when I was um when I was watching your the documentary that your sister made and and there's a moment where you talk about

your your kind of you becoming increasingly chaotic and then forgetting about your rental cars all over the place and then oh my god no

>> then you go to rehab in the end and you change you know and I >> you know I didn't you know I don't know if it's about changing it's just I got myself back, you know. Um,

>> you know, and I, um, >> um, >> I mean, no, no two ways about it. Drugs

are stupid. I mean, it's just that that's that's the bottom line, >> you know.

>> I suppose they make you feel like you're getting closer and actually, >> well, you know, I mean, I think what's important and it's it's always been very hard. I know there's been a lot of books

hard. I know there's been a lot of books now, memoirs coming out about that period, but everyone was on Yeah.

>> I mean, you know, I don't mean to say it, but it was really it was >> it's hard to explain, but um it was it was prevalent. It was like everywhere,

was prevalent. It was like everywhere, you know. Um,

you know. Um, I remember going to um I just come come out and I was going to be photographed by Robert Maplethorp and

>> have my picture taken which was interesting and and so I went to see him and >> and he put out this line that was so long >> a long line and I looked at it and I

said okay you know it's like you know the portrait is me from the side looking away you know somewhere you know Um, you know, it was just like it, you

know, it had its um its run. I mean, it was it's it's drugs aren't uninteresting.

>> Um, you know, on some level, you know, for sure. I mean, it's it's always good to

sure. I mean, it's it's always good to know that there are altered states to everything.

But you're right actually because you know it's drugs that change people rather than getting off that changes them I think because I've seen so much

as you know such a you know everyone has gone through it or has had close experiences with friends and and it

seems that people become diminished and um when it's great at first and then suddenly you know It's not. Otherwise, everyone would be

It's not. Otherwise, everyone would be on drugs and it would be perfect.

>> Did you know Earl McGrath?

>> I didn't actually. I know so many people who knew him and uh I never met him.

>> No. He at one point he said to me, "Annie, you've been >> a photographer for this many years and you've been a drug addict for this many.

Would you want what do you want to be? A

photographer or a drug addict?" And I said, "I think I want to be a photographer." So,

photographer." So, >> he was very helpful in that way.

>> Yeah. It seems seems a long time ago. So

>> because Yan Wena described your image of John Lennon and naked curled up around Yokoono as the Pietar of our times and

and he was shot and killed only four or five hours after you taking that photograph, which must have been extremely shocking for you. And you said

that John was adamant that he wanted he him and Yoko to be on the cover. And I

wondered how you'd managed to make sure that his wishes were carried out.

I I I was I was sort of told that they wanted John and not John and Yoko

>> uh when I was sent to uh take the photograph. And I think I've always been

photograph. And I think I've always been I mean I've known John for over you know 10 years at that point and and I I I think when I got to their

apartment I just told him that you know I just said you know think they want just you John you know and and he said oh no I I

I it has to be both of us together. It

really does. And I said, "Well, let let's think of something really really let's think of something really good that let's make it good, you know, whatever." And he they had just done uh

whatever." And he they had just done uh double fantasy and it was so beautiful the um it was it was them kissing, you

know, on the cover. And 1980

was sort of deplete of romance, you know. It seemed like a it seemed um

know. It seemed like a it seemed um you know not a very romantic time. Um

>> but um I imagined them you know holding each other in some way and I imagined that um they would both be nude and it

it it's not it wasn't unusual for them to pose um pose nude. M

>> um but you know I've told the story many times but basically you know at the last minute you know Yoko didn't want to take off you know all of her clothes take off

her clothes she was and you know she was and um and I I said you know okay just just leave everything on and um

you know in those days with film you would take a Polaroid first and and I took the Polaroid and um

and I showed John and he said, "Oh, oh my god, I I really love that. That's

really our that's our relationship."

>> God, >> the idea that he was >> naked and she was clothed.

>> And we just shot a few frames and >> God really, >> you know, I brought it back. Um,

well, I was getting a process actually when it was still being processed that night when um I got a call from Yan Winter to say that he'd been shot.

And um I went over to the hospital, Roosevelt Hospital, and waited until early morning when the doctor came out and announced that he had died. Um it

was yeah it was definitely um definitely shocking to me. Um

it was and upsetting and and I mean it took me um you know just some sometimes you're in these places that

you don't understand why you're there you know um >> but you know the photograph itself um

so so what happened was um I I went into Rolling Stone if not the next day, the day after, and they were mocking up a

a head portrait of of John.

And I I went in to see Yan, and I said, "Jan, no, no, John. John really wanted Yoko with him."

>> Yeah.

>> And um and Yan changed the cover. He

changed it to to both of them together.

>> It's so moving every time that photograph It's still a very um it's it's so interesting to have a photograph like

that and and where uh it changes over time. You know, you you look at it and

time. You know, you you look at it and and it it it it tells you another story.

You know, someone dies.

>> Um you look at the photograph differently.

It's interesting now there's a lot of people in my photographs who are dying.

I was just thinking, you know, Robert Wilson, you know, dying. Uh, and I took a look at the the photograph of him holding the light bulb. I love that picture so much

light bulb. I love that picture so much of him.

>> Beautiful. Yeah. Um, and you know, just recently, um, Dian Katon, >> um, you know, I just I went back through

my photographs of her and you know, I realized how much she had inspired me >> um, in the way she dressed and um, how

she held her ground and how how how she dressed. And anytime I photographed her,

dressed. And anytime I photographed her, she would come with ideas and cuz she was an artist and she was a photographer as well. Um, and you know, if you can

as well. Um, and you know, if you can imagine photographing Hollywood, quote unquote, >> and then you're you meet someone like

Diane, Diane Keaton, um, it was she was so impressive, you know, so um, there there we were photographing

her for I was photographing her for Vanity Fair and um, there was a young fashion editor there

who got all racks and racks of clothes for her. And um and I looked at him and

for her. And um and I looked at him and I said, "She's she's not going to wear any of your clothes. This is not going to happen." He said, "Well, I could

to happen." He said, "Well, I could try." I said, "Well, yeah, I mean, but

try." I said, "Well, yeah, I mean, but she's not going to wear." Anyway, so Diana gets there and she, you know, and of course she didn't wear any of his

clothes and he literally went off to a corner and started crying. I mean, I'm not kidding. He started crying.

not kidding. He started crying.

>> That's crazy.

>> Crazy.

>> Hadn't he watched Diane Keaton? I mean,

>> I mean, her whole point is, you know, I mean, oh my god.

>> Everything she wears was >> when she died, it just seemed like impossible. It seemed like she's still a

impossible. It seemed like she's still a young woman. She stayed

young woman. She stayed with so many people from so many generations as a a kind of thrilling co-conspirator in a way.

>> Um I I mean I I there's the sitting where she's she brought in the she brought in a a reference picture of someone with

her head against the wall, you know, because she always was trying to hide herself in in in in her photographs.

>> Mhm. And um

not not so different from Cindy Sherman actually who wants to hide herself, >> right?

>> Um >> is she a friend of yours, Cindy Sh?

>> She's not she's not a friend. I just I admire her so much. I mean I I just like she's such a great artist. I mean, I I just like, you know,

um, you know, we've done some nice work together, but I I just like I still get like I admire her too much to, you know,

I don't know, she's just amazing amazing amazing artist. Um,

amazing artist. Um, >> that's so interesting about Diane Keaton trying to hide herself.

So, we did we did these these photographs and they're in I think a book or so, but um where she does a little jig, a little dance of some kind, and it looks like some kind of Czechoslovakian

tango or something. I don't know what it is, but I I just Anyway, so she's was such an artist. Um she was good friends with Lloyd Ze who was an art director

who um I knew very well and was an art director of Rolling Stone and not not only Rolling Stone but but also Vanity Fair for a few minutes

but cuz when you went to Vanity Fair you said a cover is a thankless dilemma and it isn't really a photograph and and you

know we all used to wait for those covers and you know how you got all those people together and they were so excited.

>> You know what did you mean? You can

imagine going to an art school, you know, the San Francisco Art Art Institute and really learning Card Card Cardier Bison Robert Frank and then,

>> you know, sort of coming, you know, being around other photographers who really art photographers who didn't believe in

selling their work. I saw the possibilities in it. I saw

>> in this, you know, what turns out to be, I mean, Rolling Stone was an incredible run, >> but Rolling Stone also when it moved to New York, it wanted I remember Jan saying to me, I want to do all white

backgrounds for the covers. And I looked at him and I just, >> you know, I don't know. Uh it it was inevitably

it's sort of it's it's a hard um world to be in and try to

do something in and I I've weathered it all these years because I the five or six or seven or eight times a year that

something is kind of incredible comes out of it. Um where you can do something with it although it's it's a tough

landscape like it's you know it it can be extremely difficult. Um and the covers particularly

you know I I did begin to like I I I don't want to be responsible you know for you know if this magazine sells or not. I don't really want to, you know, I

not. I don't really want to, you know, I certainly don't want to be blamed if it doesn't sell, you know. I mean, it's it's um inevitably becomes about business and

and you >> you know, you're trying so hard to do something um good or important or breaks through or

does something. Um which is why I began

does something. Um which is why I began to not really be interested in in the covers at all. um you know um didn't um

>> cuz when they came out they were almost like miniseries in one shot. I mean

there was just so much going on and so many >> so much story that seeing them like waiting to see what the next cover how you would have the next reaction. I mean

they're amazing.

>> The covers are difficult. I I'm just remembering that um I was so excited when I did Steve Martin against the France line painting.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah.

>> And it was the worst selling cover Rolling Stone they ever had.

>> Do you know what I mean? Because

>> he wasn't recogniz He wasn't recognizable. He wasn't big enough.

recognizable. He wasn't big enough.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, >> it's an amazing picture. I mean,

>> cuz I I thought I had a really good idea about how to maybe use this conceptual work to create an interesting cover.

>> Yeah.

>> And I was interested in that for for a bit. Um but um

bit. Um but um it's it's it's done. It's done. It's

still people, you know, and I don't know where magazines are now.

>> Yeah. I honestly don't know. It's

different. I mean it online is interesting. It's not uninteresting. Um

interesting. It's not uninteresting. Um

>> it it was interesting when photographs began to go online because I was so used to having to deal with a gutter, you know, with you know, you couldn't put anyone in the middle because in a

magazine like there would be the right side and the left side and then you can't if if you put someone in the middle they would fall in the gutter. So

now, you know, because photographs are online, you're as a photographer, you're you're being given back the middle of the picture, you know, again,

>> really my books my my books are where my >> Yeah, >> my books are really where where my work is and and photographers's life is probably >> um my favorite book.

>> And um and this book on women is um is so meaningful to me now. I mean, it's I'm going to sleep.

Do has anyone ever fallen asleep here?

>> No, not yet.

>> I I had one person fall asleep when I was photographing him. I think Arthur Slesinger literally started sleeping, you know.

>> Gosh, >> that was interesting.

>> Cuz when you were a child, did you ever long for a particular garment or something that you felt would consolidate your identity? Did you have an obsession with any uh piece of

clothing? Cuz you have such a look. I

clothing? Cuz you have such a look. I

wondered did it.

>> No, I mean my I think my look is a non-look. I mean I I think

non-look. I mean I I think >> Oh, it's very distinguished. It's the

look of a soldier and agility. That's

>> Oh, combined into your look.

>> No one's ever said that, but thank you.

>> No, >> I like that.

I mean, when I had my children, I wanted to to try to, >> you know, dress up occasionally. So, and

but I >> I don't know. Um Thank you. I mean um but as a child I mean we we were always we didn't have much money you know and

so we couldn't really afford we we bought our clothes like if you can imagine being in Fairbanks Alaska we bought them from Montgomery Ward and Sears and Robot Cadillocks you know.

>> Right. Right. So, um, and then by the time I made it through to suburban Washington DC for my high school years, um,

we really couldn't afford good clothes.

I was really impressed when >> when the Gap came along.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> And people could afford >> clothing, you know, uh, you know, that that was kind of fashionable and nice.

And um I did, you know, I was really uh proud of that series. You you know the early Gap portraits.

>> Oh, they were fantastic.

>> You're making making clothes available for >> Yeah, they were so glad. They they were gorgeous. I loved

glad. They they were gorgeous. I loved

those. I mean, they were like again like your covers, you know, when you saw them on the side of a bus, you thought, "Oh, this is really exciting."

I wondered if you if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

>> Well, I I like to see how people dress.

I I love to see how people dress. I

>> I do think it's part of the portrait.

I'm I'm not >> I don't underestimate the power of of how people dress. Um I'm interested in how people dress. Um

>> I mean, look at Diane Katon. I admired

her. I mean, I I I do um I do think what's happening now in fashion is kind of amazing. I I really feel like um

of amazing. I I really feel like um many people have taken back how they want to to see see themselves and how they want to dress and how they look

>> and they and I love this this time right now in fashion because there's so much available >> um in so many ways to dress, you know,

and express yourself. And I think in in this period of of kind of like difficult times, um I think fashion is is is certainly a you know a way out, you

know, to give our ourselves some relief.

I'm I'm I'm impressed with fashion.

>> I'm impressed with us >> being able to, >> you know, dress ourselves the way we want to see ourselves. I mean it it

there was there was a moment when you know doing the work for the magazines and they they would dress people and and and they would address

the subject and the subject um and you would lose who the who the person was.

>> Yeah.

>> And and I just am so impressed with us that we've and and this is going to be true about I think this is true about everything. It comes back around. Yeah,

around. Yeah, >> that that there's so much out there in fashion to define yourself. And I I think it's it's wonderful. I I just

think it's a Don't you think?

>> I I completely agree. I mean, even you know what you're wearing today and you're wearing Daniel Rosebury and you're wearing these this shirt that's actually shredded at the elbow and that

you had made 20 years ago and the boots and you know and it's a it's about you can just use it as resource and like

notice that your identity responds to certain ways of putting things together and then mess about. whereas there's not

there's no the formality is gone of what was supposed to happen and that's that's so exciting is it >> it it is it is exciting I mean that the other thing that's kept us alive is

comedy >> you know I mean it's like the Saturday Night Live did their 50th anniversary >> I mean I'm sorry but I mean you it's so

different when I came into London a few days ago I went oh my god It's it feels so good here, you know.

>> It's like, you know, people are kind of normal. I mean, you don't realize how

normal. I mean, you don't realize how oppressive it is in America today.

>> Um, I just wanted I just had to comment on that. Um,

on that. Um, >> you've made some of the most recognizable images in the world like naked Demi Moore and Queen Elizabeth and

and of course John and Yoko. But you did this amazing campaign um a government funded campaign for Got Milk and with

everyone sporting a milk mustache from Kate Moss and Venus and and Serena Williams and it has so much charm. I

mean I remember that obsessed with it was like I kept telling them you know you don't have to hire me to do this.

This is ridiculous because, you know, you just, you know, put, you know, put a mustache on any any picture you want.

>> Exactly.

>> But we did, we did actually did, we actually did try to make the mustache out of um something that if you accident accidentally licked it, you wouldn't

kill over and die from poison. Like it

was wasn't it was actually yogurt and milk and >> really >> and everything else. Yeah. It's very

because I think it's very charming when a girl wears a mustache and I I've often I've often gone out as my party look

with I like dressing as a boy if I have to do fancy dress and a mustache is just like the most th exciting thing. I

wondered if you'd ever gone out with a mustache. It was such a genius because

mustache. It was such a genius because you captured it was like everyone became kids but in this this kind of somewhere

in between adult and and like teenage rebellion and between boy and girl and you you got so much in that

>> in those pool. I never saw it like that, but you know, it was it was definitely more play playful for sure, you know, um than

>> than anything else. But um

>> yeah, I think people had a chance to play, you know, for sure.

>> But it was very effective, too. I mean,

Kate Moss with the milk mustache, you you thought, I want to I mean, I hate milk myself, but you want to go out and you want to be like that and you want and it also reminds you that you can

have like a mucky fa you can do something wrong and it actually is fine or it looks charming or you suddenly have something

on your face and instead of being this terrible fauxar, it's actually kind of quite attractive.

Hm. I don't know why, but it's leading me to think about the bearded lady in in in the first in in the first book. um

you know um I I really wanted to photograph her and and she was um >> that's in in the S tag volume and and

and I I wanted her to to pose naked with with with the um you know with her beard and she was she she refused she said I

don't have to prove that I'm a woman by taking my clothes off you know like >> because you were deeply involved involved with Susan Sug and shared a

life together for 15 years and till she died and you said you've described her as being quite critical and hard on you and I wondered if that was how she

showed her love.

I I say it I do say it in a loving way.

I have to tell you because I I I what I mean, you know, um obviously doing this book

um doing the reissue of of of the first women's book and then doing the second book, you know, it it does bring Susan back.

>> Yeah. And uh there's a um in the first book on the title page I there's a photograph of my mother um

opposite the title page that was done for the women's book from 1999. In the

new issue, I put this portrait of Susan there um that was taken on the K in in Paris in front of the apartment she had

for a couple years, you know, um before she died. Um, and um, it's a funny

she died. Um, and um, it's a funny picture because, you know, we're talking about Jean and Yoko, that picture, but when I took it,

she was um, mad at me because um, she she didn't want to go outside to take the picture.

>> Mhm.

>> And um, and I said, you know, the light's really nice outside. You really

have to go outside. So, so she's look she's looking at me and and and she's mad at me. And as years have passed, I look at I looked at and think, well, she

I know she's mad at me in this picture, but she's she's really strong in this picture and she looks very intelligent and she looks, you know, she looks very

strong.

>> And so I I I put it on the um >> on the, you know, opposite the title page. So, I'm in these bookstores

page. So, I'm in these bookstores signing these books, and I have to look at Susan being mad at me. Every single

time I sign sign the book, I look across and I go, you know, she's I know she's mad at me, but she Susan, you look really

>> This picture has has changed over the years. You know, it's not um

years. You know, it's not um it's actually a very good strong picture of you, Susan. Yeah.

>> Um it's just an amuse amusing little story. Right.

story. Right.

>> But you know, Susan, when I met Susan, I was I was, you know, late 80s, early 90s. It was it was sort of it was the be

90s. It was it was sort of it was the be the beginning of the sort of end of that period of the Van Fair, Tina Brown, you

know, kind of overthe-top um popular work. And um

and and I'd come out of Rolling Stone and and I was always a little cocky and a little um

um silly and you know Susan, you know, wanted me to be more serious, you know, and um cuz she was serious and although

she would she certainly had her, you know, her silly sides as well, but but she wanted to when it came to work, it was it was serious. And

>> you know, she she would get sort of pissed at me about about certain things, you know, um and I I've been talking about this a little bit more just

because because of um reprinting printing reprinting the book. But um

you know, she she would say, "Why don't you shoot more photographs?" You know, like why? Most photographers I know when

like why? Most photographers I know when they walk down the street, they just shoot pictures. Why aren't you shooting?

shoot pictures. Why aren't you shooting?

I'm not a I really am not a street photographer. I'm very, you know, you

photographer. I'm very, you know, you know, sort of a one-on-one photographer.

So, you know, she would say things like that or I would >> come back from a shoot and she would say, "I hope you didn't put someone in bed again." You know, it's like, you

bed again." You know, it's like, you know, you have too many pictures of people lying in bed. You know, it's like, you know, when I started to look at, oh, there's Brad Pitt in bed and there's >> this person there.

>> Of course, Peter UAR's I was thinking about Peter's picture um of her >> lying in that bed. It's actually the best picture of her. I love that

photograph of her. She's so amazing >> because she was a hardcore intellectual, but I read that she was the one that wanted to go to the cheesy films and >> Oh, I know.

want to see Water World or something and I was like, "Oh my god."

>> Yeah.

>> You know, but you know, it'd be a sunny Sunday afternoon and we we'd go see like an 9-hour German film on, you know, something and I said, "That's it. I'm

not going I'm not I'm not going I am not going in to to see a 9-hour film any longer on, you

know." Anyway, no. Yeah,

know." Anyway, no. Yeah,

>> she was. But she she What a ride. I

mean, what a You know, I I >> I mean, she was amazing to be with. I I

>> She was so I wish she was around today, you know, just to >> help tell us what's going on.

>> That's your job now, showing us.

But um you also said um you talked about like having not having two lives and how you know things you said um I don't have two lives and the personal pictures and

the assignment worker of it >> you don't you really aren't thinking that sounds so dumb now you know like have two lives you know like I don't

know like you know where did that come from I I think it was it was I was trying to justify the book, you know, um

the it it was an interesting exercise to put the assignment work in there with my day-to-day life.

>> Um you know, my father died and my children were being born, Susan died. It was it was um you know we talked about it was it was sort

of that book was sort of my year of magical thinking you know that that kind of ins you know insanity that happens when all that stuff is going on. But um

so I I tried I I wasn't too sure I could do it, you know, that I could put those very personal pictures with Colin Pal or you know um you know the Bush

administration or something, you know, like it's just it didn't I just didn't know if it would if it would work. Um I

I'm not too sure it does, but they they they kind of help each other in some way >> where you you don't you're not going so much into but they but literally that

that is what was happening you know like at the same time >> I love that I must say >> that was happening that's happening >> cuz my father never differentiated

between work and life was work that was what he loved and cared about more than anything. So,

anything. So, you know, he talked about work, but there wasn't something else that happened apart from sleeping and eating,

but that was part of work. And and even family life was part of work. And so,

when you said that, I thought, yeah, I I thought I know what you were talking about.

>> It's true. I don't you never you never stop um seeing or framing or um

you know it doesn't turn on and off like that.

It's >> it's always it's always on, you know. Um

>> it's always >> it's always on, you know. It's

>> it doesn't it doesn't stop cuz you took photographs of Susan on her deathbed. And uh I I always remember my

deathbed. And uh I I always remember my my dad going to the hospital where his mother died and say, "I'm going going to go in and do a drawing." And I dropped

him off. we must have been working

him off. we must have been working together and I dropped him off in a cab and it was like 11 or 12 at night and he disappeared inside and he did the

drawing of his mother and um >> and I've got photographs of my father when he when he was dead and >> I find them very beautiful and

>> and it feels natural at the time as well and I and I wondered how it feels to revisit which you're you just talking

about that photograph of Susan next to the introduction that you're with the with the book now and how does it feel

to um to look back at those photos and >> well

I'm I'm very I'm very proud of >> of that book um Photographers's life um >> I I don't know if I It's one thing to do

it for yourself, but then to publish it.

Um I I I don't know. I I know that I heard from a lot of people who it gave them the strength to photograph their

mother or their loved one or >> you know um because because it is it definitely

feels um it's a difficult you know thing to do. I I I I I know that I was encouraged by Susan.

>> Yeah.

>> You know that that she >> she wanted to be photographed. Um and

you know, I admire her, you know, you know, for that. Um

she she wanted me to be a good photographer. Mhm.

photographer. Mhm.

>> Um she wanted me to do the best >> that I could do.

>> Yeah.

>> Um she wanted me to be the best I could be and and she didn't want um so I I think on some level

a lot of Yeah. Um,

Yeah. Um, but um,

as I said, I I think I I think I would think twice about about it now, you know, on some level.

Uh, I mean, you're definitely in in a place when when when when all of that is going on. Yeah.

>> Um and and on some level you're you're kind of happy to have your work, >> you know, when when when when that is

happening.

>> Um it gives you >> a purpose, you know, um a reason to be standing there or um

>> Yeah, that's true.

Well, thank you so much Annie for for being on Fashion Neurosis and it's been so wonderful to talk to you and uh think

about that moment actually cuz when you were just saying that I thought that moment is so involved in waiting for someone to die and it's such a weird

thing to be doing even you know that's the best thing that could happen at that particular time But

it's um it's wonderful to be able to see what you've done and for it to mean something.

It's it's part of life, you know. I

mean, when you get older, too, it it's um it's it's as much part of life as is as as being born.

>> Yeah. Um, and uh, it's it's kind of incredible. It's a

privilege.

>> It's really a privilege and an honor, you know.

>> Thank you so much for being here.