Belief It or Not: How to Rewrite the Narratives That Hold You Back

For many of us, our success is blocked.

Blocked by our beliefs and approaches.

If we remove these barriers, we can have

more impact and add lasting value. My

name is Matt Abrahams and I teach

strategic communication at Stamford

Graduate School of Business. Welcome to

Think Fast Talks Smart the podcast.

Today I'm really excited to have another

conversation with Muriel Wilkins. Mural

is an executive coach, author, and

podcast host. She hosts the HBR podcast,

Coaching Real Leaders, and she has a new

book out, Leadership Unblocked:

Breakthrough: The Beliefs That Limit

Your Potential. Well, welcome back,

Muriel. I really enjoyed our previous

conversation in episode 102, and I look

forward to learning from you again.

>> Likewise, Matt. Thank you for having me

back.

>> Excellent. Shall we get started?

>> Absolutely. Let's do it.

>> Okay. A lot of your work focuses on

helping leaders be more effective. In

your experience, what are the most

common beliefs that hold leaders back?

>> There are quite a few.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> And I've spent spent some time looking

at them. But you know, let me caveat

that by saying I think beliefs are very

unique to the individual. So while I

have identified some common ones, the

work is to identify which ones might be

getting in your own way. But to get us

started, and that might be a little bit

of an appetizer to tease out some of the

ones that might exist for any leader,

there are seven that I identified that

are most common amongst the leaders that

I've coached. And so, the first is I

need to be involved. The second is I

need it done now. The third is I know

I'm right. The fourth is I can't make a

mistake. The fifth is if I can do it, so

can you. The sixth is I can't say no.

And the last one is I don't belong here.

And what I have found is that nine times

out of 10, if there is frustration that

you're feeling or something is getting

in the way of you being able to lead

effectively, many times they might end

up being one of these beliefs that are

completely in your subconscious or

another that has helped you in some form

at some point in your life, but may not

be helping you in the situation that

you're in. I always think it's useful to

think through some of these barriers and

beliefs and identify them so that we can

then become focused on trying to to fix

them. In looking at your list, I'm like,

"Oh boy, I've got a few of these going

on." Um uh

>> yeah, Matt, I'll tell you, as I wrote

this book and I worked through each of

the beliefs, I was pretty sure I only

had like maybe two of them. And every

time I would finish a chapter, I'd be

like, "Oh my god, I have this one, too."

You know, the one that rings really true

for me is the can't say no. And in fact,

when you were last on the show, we

talked about that and you gave me some

good advice. I've dialed that one down a

bit, but it's still there. And I I do

have a lot of uh being afraid of making

mistakes and there's a lot of pressure

given what I do to to feel like I have

to have a good right answer for things.

>> Yeah. I mean, it can be because we

associate we identify with them so much,

right? Maybe it's been what's been the

key to your success. And so I think a

part of it is, you know, to what extent

have you taken some time to potentially

redefine what success might look like

for you now? And does that belief, that

driving principle still serve you in

terms of the new definition of success?

>> Wow. Already providing really useful

information for me personally and I

think everybody listening in that that a

lot of these beliefs are tied to how we

envision success. And if you change that

vision of what success looks like, that

can make a big difference. I appreciate

that. Which leads me naturally to the

next question. You talk through three

stages on how to get unblocked from your

hidden beliefs. Can you walk us through

these?

>> We live in a very actionbased culture. I

myself

for most of my life have been very prone

to take action as quickly as I can. And

what I found is that it, you know, while

we can move to action to sort of change

our approach, if we don't also take some

time to think through what might be

leading to that action, we'll we'll come

back right to where we started to begin

with. So the three-step process is to

try to mitigate us having to return to

that starting point over and over again.

The first step is to uncover. The second

step is to unpack. And the third step is

to unblock. Let me take a little bit of

a deep dive on each one of those. So

with uncover, it's number one,

understanding that there might be

dissonance between the way that what you

want to achieve and what you're actually

achieving, right? So in your case, maybe

when the I I can't say no belief was

driving you, maybe you were finding

that, hey, I'd really only like to have

five things on my to-do list, but here I

have 50 instead. Right? So there's

something that's queuing you up that

something is off. Something doesn't feel

right. And you can then ask yourself,

well, what is the belief that is driving

this potential situation that I'm in or

the behavior that I'm having or what I'm

seeing manifests itself in front of me.

So, you uncover the belief. And what is

a belief? A belief is a story that you

tell yourself. It's not a bad or or a

good. It's not a wrong or a right. It

just is. It is the operating principle

that is driving your behavior or the

decisions that you make. Once you can

uncover that, then you can go to unpack.

And the unpack is to familiarize

yourself with why you have that mindset

to begin with. In what way has it served

you up until now? As we just talked

about, in what ways has it made you

successful? And then is it making you

successful now? Is it driving to the

outcomes that you want to drive to? And

and if it's not, then you can allow

yourself to move into the third stage,

which is unblock, which is what most

people want to run to right away. And in

unblock, you reframe the belief, right?

So you reframe in your language the

communication that you're having with

yourself. Um, and you reframe it to a

message, to a mantra, to a narrative

that actually is going to serve you in

this moment. And how do you know it's

serving you? It's more aligned with the

outcomes that you want to achieve. uh

and increases the probability that you

will get to those outcomes. Once you've

done that, you can then ask yourself,

okay, so if that is what I believe now,

what actions can I take? What actions

does it open up for me? What can I do

that not only helps me get to those

outcomes that I desire, but also

reinforces that belief and then you have

set the path to actually leading or

behaving or communicating in a way

that's more sustainable than if you just

move to action right away. The tendency

I have and many people I work with is

hey, let's get to that unblock stage. I

really appreciate though the the you

breaking down the uncover, the unpack,

and the unblock. And it's really it

boils down to the stories we tell

ourselves, those beliefs, and then

questioning that and then changing that

narrative and and that leads us to the

new action that can help us mitigate,

change, evolve, grow from from those

problems. And I I really appreciate

that. I just recently spent some time

thinking through I did a values exercise

to try to help me really understand what

success looks like for me and from that

that led me to I think be better at

unblocking and and I'm I'm putting

putting this process I put myself

through into your steps and I and I can

see the values

>> even with values we sometimes have to

kick the can on them right where did

those values come from are they truly

your values or are they the learned

values that you adopted

as a way of making you feel worthy,

accepted, and safe in your original

tribe or the original community that

you're a part of or early on in your

career. That may not be necessarily the

values that you need now, you know, in

the position that you're in or in the

the type of leadership role that you're

in that are going to help you get to

again the the success that you want.

It's a little spooky, mural, because

what you just said is exactly the

process I went through. It was where are

these values coming from? And and a lot

of it for me was my early career. Uh I

had some mentors and some people I

really admired and and they inculcated

in me some of these values and yet now

being in a very different stage in my

career, those values are different and

needed to evolve and they hadn't. You

distinguish between both healthy and

toxic productivity. Uh-huh.

>> What is the difference? And how can we

focus on the healthy stuff? Because I

had never thought of toxic productivity,

but I think I might be waiting in that.

>> You know, it's so interesting because

sometimes we just talk about

productivity, which is about getting

things done. And there's healthy

productivity and toxic productivity.

Toxic productivity is getting things

done at any cost, right? And it is

universally applied across anything that

has the notion of needing to be

completed. The toxic productivity is

really driven by a mindset of I need it

done now. There's a sense of urgency in

everything and everything needs to be

done. While healthy productivity is more

about doing things and focusing on

things that matter. So beyond that you

have to understand then what is it that

matters right? there's a certain level

of prioritization that needs to happen

and the belief that will drive the

healthy productivity is more around

something like uh I'll do the best that

I can with the time that I have. So what

I love about that is that it takes into

account that we have constraints whether

we like it or not. We have guard rails

and the guard rails are what is the best

that I can do meaning what is within my

capabilities or my team's capabilities

or the organization's capabilities and

what is the time limit that I have and

then what's doable within that time

frame and the there is a cost to both

toxic and an opportunity with healthy

that we can see happen within

organizations but also on ourselves. So

most people don't really discern between

the two. they just think about being

productive rather than shifting their

mindset so that they can have one type

of productivity versus the other.

>> I really do need to distinguish that

because I have that mentality of just

get it done and the biggest thing that

suffers is my sleep and I know I'm not

at my at my best when I'm I'm tired. I

have a new mantra. I'm going to do the

best that I can with the time that I

have. Uh and and the the distinction

that you make really reminds me of that

distinction between urgency and what

what's urgent and what's important.

>> And and if you live in that world of

urgency, that's that toxicity you're

talking about where while you might get

things checked off your checklist, you

put yourself at a disadvantage. And and

I I do, you know, uh I do appreciate you

giving me that new mantra.

>> You know, there's also the other side of

that formula, which is if you regard

everything as important, not everything

is important, you know, whether

>> Yeah. Yeah. know it had to do with

prioritization, right? And and again

comes back to your values and your

beliefs, which really are important. You

know, last time we talked, we discussed

the importance of mindset. I know you

spent even more time since we last

talked thinking about and studying the

impact of mindset uh on well-being and

success. Can you share the new thoughts

that you have about mindset?

>> Absolutely. Uh you know, and and these

thoughts aren't mine. And I just became

more curious about mindset because I

found that not only with myself and my

own life experience and leadership

experience, but also with my clients

that they were moving to action, but the

actions weren't sustainable. And so it

got me curious around, well, why is

that? I'm a big fan of reverse

engineering. And when I reverse

engineered, I'm like, well, let's start

at the beginning. And the story in the

the beginning is the story we tell

ourselves about what we do. You know,

one of the the studies that really

fascinated me was a study by I believe

her first name is Aaliyah, last namerum,

and she's a social scientist. So, she

did that study with the hotel attendants

where they asked those hotel attendants,

"Do you think that the work that you do

is exercise?" And they were like, "No."

And so they said, "Well, what if you did

your work?" And all you had to do was

change the way you think about your

work, you think about it as exercise.

Four weeks later, with that small shift,

they saw significant enough uh

improvement in the health and fitness of

these individuals just by the mindset

change. And that fascinated me and her

conclusion

which is that uh it's not just about

what we do, but it's about what we think

about what we do that makes all the

difference literally was a gamecher for

me. And I started taking that approach

with my coaching clients in terms of

really exploring, well, how are you

thinking or what is it that you're

thinking about the conversation you're

having with your colleague? What is it

that you're thinking about that

presentation that you're about to go

make? What is it that you're thinking

about that report or that deck that you

have to put together? By shifting the

way that you think about the thing, not

only may have a direct outcome on the

thing itself, but even more importantly,

Matt, it changes your experience of

doing the thing, right? And so in my

world, I really just want leaders to be

able to lead with a little more ease,

right? Doesn't have to be as difficult

as we make it. challenges are

challenging enough, but if we can

approach them and respond to them with a

little more ease, boy would that open up

opportunities. And I think the mindset,

the way that you do the work or how what

you think about the work is what can

open up that possibility of leading with

more ease.

>> I love Aaliyah's work and and like you,

I see a tremendous amount of power in

it. It's how we frame and reframe it.

I'll give an example from my life. You

know, one of the things that that has

always been or had been difficult for me

was the grading part of the job I do as

a teacher. I have to give grades. It was

not something that I would get up in the

morning excited to do. But then when I

reframed grading as actually another

form of teaching, which I am very

passionate about, it was like a

gamecher. So refraraming can really

change the way in which you interact.

And I want to highlight something else

for everybody. The way you got to where

you did on your perspective on on

mindset and reframing is by reverse

engineering and I think that is such a

powerful tool and I know you use it a

lot to understand things in your own

life and the lives of those that you

coach. Can you walk us through sort of

how you think about reverse engineering

because for many people that's not an

intuitive thing to do.

>> My tendency is to be very

resultsoriented, right? Very outcomes

driven. I've I'm a lot of the work on

myself is to not be so attached to the

outcome. But when I look at the outcome

either either the outcome that has

occurred or the outcome that I want or

that I desire I can then look and say

okay this is what I desire this is what

I want to achieve let me work backwards

right what would I need to do to be able

so that's the action what would I need

to do to be able to achieve that outcome

all right if that's the action how would

I need to feel about that action in

order for it the increase the

probability ility that I would actually

do it or that we could make it happen.

And then from the feeling, I can work

backwards and say, what would I need to

think? What would I need to believe

in order to increase the probability

that I could feel and also fulfill those

actions? And that's where the reverse

engineering is, are those thoughts or

what I need to believe, are they aligned

with the way that I believe right now?

If it's yes, great. If it's not, then

here's an opportunity to reframe the

belief. not lose the one that I've had,

just put it to the side momentarily

until it's useful again. Right? But

there needs to be alignment between how

I think, how I feel, and how I act in

order to achieve a particular outcome.

Start with the outcome and then work it

backwards to say, okay, what would that

alignment look for me? When we feel

frustration or we feel dissonance or we

feel stuck, it's often because there's

somewhere along the line there's some

misalignment. Thank you for walking us

through that backward mapping. You know,

I I spend a lot of my time talking about

how people should have a clear goal in

their communication and I use this

structure of no feel do and you've just

applied no field do in a very different

way to help us with our internal

communication to align ourselves to the

beliefs we have and the beliefs we

should have to achieve our goals. I

really appreciate that backward mapping

process. You are an expert coach. I

certainly have benefited from this

conversation. But last time, you were

kind enough to coach me through a

challenge I was having around setting

boundaries. Your advice was incredibly

helpful and foundationally changed how I

do some things. And anybody wanting to

hear that advice can go back to episode

102 to hear. Uh would you be willing to

coach me on another issue I'm having?

>> Of course. Of course. If you're willing,

I'm down. So, one of the things that I

struggle with is I get very emotionally

invested in my work and as a result

often find myself exhausted and run

down. Any advice? I I don't want to lose

my passion. I think that's one of the

strengths I bring to the things I do,

but I also don't want to lose more sleep

and energy.

>> So, let me just ask you, when you say

emotionally invested, what's the emotion

and what's the investment?

>> I have a lot of curiosity and passion to

help. So in many of these situations, I

see opportunities to learn, to help

others learn, and to help. The biggest

emotions that drive me are are those

curiosity and and the desire to help.

And the investment is often time, not

just time in conversation and work to

accomplish that, but it's just mental

time. I I am somebody who ruminates, who

reflects. And so even when I'm not doing

the work, when I'm I'm trying to

vegetate, uh, sitting in front of the TV

or I'm going for a walk, it occupies my

time in my head. So, so the the

investment is a lot and constant.

>> Yeah. And so what would it look like for

you to still be able to exercise that

passion you have and the desire you have

to help others uh, and not

let it consume you as much as you feel

it does or you've stated it does? I

actually don't know the answer to that

question. I do have some role models,

some people that I really admire who

seem to be able to do it. So, what I've

noticed that they can do is they're able

to compartmentalize. They're able to

say, "Okay, just spent time doing that.

Going to put a bow on it, might come

back to it later, and I'm going to move

on to something else." The other thing

I've noticed that people do is they have

some kind of transitioning ritual. It

could be taking a walk. It could be

calling a friend. It could be checking

email. I've noticed that I haven't been

able to find a good transitioning risk

rule to get myself out of whatever I'm

focused on.

>> What do you believe that gets in the way

of you being able to compartmentalize?

>> When I reflect on what we've talked

about just previously, I think there is

an underlying belief that

commitment to to something I'm

passionate about is full-on commitment.

And in some way, I'm failing either

myself or the other people involved if

I'm not constantly working on it. And

and that was an unlock for me from our

earlier part of this conversation. And

perhaps I need to revisit that belief

that that failure is is nothing less

than 110% investment.

>> Yeah. I mean, well, let's try it, right?

How would you redefine that belief now

in a way that would allow you to both

drive to your passion and get more

sleep?

>> Yeah. So, I I think the first thing I

have to do is be is is ask other people.

you know, I I I'm realizing I make the

assumption of what success looks like

for me and perhaps those that I'm trying

to serve in that moment or with that

project or whatever it is might have a

different version of success that is not

as amped up and intense as the one that

I have. Uh and so so I think getting

external for myself might be helpful and

then perhaps setting some boundaries

around investment like while this is

important prioritize it relative to the

other things that are important.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I and so what my advice

to you would be to go back and redefine

as we said earlier in the conversation

redefine success because if success

means I can do all the things and I need

to do all the things in order for other

people to be helped right because it's

grounded in helping redefining that

would be helpful to you and as you said

maybe getting some outside measure of

what that looks like because what might

be good enough for others might not be

the way that you're defining ain't good

enough for you. And so getting that

outside metric to really help

reformulate your definition of success,

which is a belief in and of itself, and

then let that drive, you know, how

you're prioritizing, how you're creating

boundaries and all of the other things

that you just said.

>> You are so good at what you do. I think

an external recalibration and an

internal recalibration of what success

is for me will really help in this

circumstance.

You know that before we end I always

like to ask three questions. One I

create just for you and the other two

I've been asking people forever. Are you

up for that?

>> Absolutely.

>> So you had mentioned that when you were

writing about the barriers that get in

the way for some leaders that you

actually recognize some in yourself. So

I'm curious if you're willing to to

disclose. What's one of the challenges

that you have and how are you working on

that?

>> Yeah. I mean I to be honest I I ended up

recognizing myself in all of them.

>> Yeah. which was kind of hard. The

longest standing one and that I have

learned to befriend because it's not

going away nor do I need it to go away

is that I need to be involved. And

underlying that is this false belief

that if I'm not involved, everything's

going to fall apart. And I understand

where it comes from. And by

understanding where it comes from, I

give myself a lot more grace because I

also recognize that where that belief

was cultivated and formed is not the

place that I'm in right now. And so I

con the work for me is constantly

reminding myself that I am in the here

and now and I'm not in the place where

that belief was actually critical to my

success and therefore I can let it go

for a little bit or put it to the side

and use a different one to help me get

my work done and be more effective in in

the here and now.

>> I really appreciate you sharing that

with us. Thank you. So you had an

opportunity to give an answer to this

question before. I'm wondering if it has

changed at all, but who is a

communicator that you admire and why?

>> The one that's coming to mind for me

today is um Dr. Gabbor

>> Mate,

>> who does a lot of work around uh mental

health and mindset.

And what I really appreciate about the

way that he communicates is number one,

he's able to take what feels like

complex ideas and break them down in

very simple terms for anyone to really

understand. Number two, he is an amazing

storyteller and by telling the story

associated with the concepts, it allows

it to be relatable uh and also

memorable. And number three, he just

exudes authenticity, right? Like he uh I

don't know if you've ever heard him

speak, but you literally feel like he's

sitting right in front of you just

having a conversation with you. It's not

him trying to be anyone else or it

doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel

performative. It just feels like him

like that's who he would be whether he

is having a coffee chat with you or

whether he's on, you know, on stage in

front of thousands of people. So, he's

someone I I hugely admire, not just in

terms of the work that he does, but also

his communication approach,

>> the ability to make things accessible,

but also be very authentic. Uh, very

powerful skills. So, since you were last

here, I'm wondering if you uh your

answer to our final question has changed

as well. What are the first three

ingredients that go into a successful

communication recipe?

>> I think you have to start with the why.

Uh so why are you communicating what

you're communicating? What's the purpose

behind it? Okay. Uh because if there's

not a purpose, you should be asking

yourself whether you should be

communicating it at all. I think the

second is the how. What is the best way

for me to communicate this? And that is

grounded again in this question of how

do I want to experience myself as I

communicate it? How do I want others to

experience me? How do I want them to

feel when they leave that communication?

And then the third is what in what way

do I need to reframe what I believe

about what I'm communicating in order

for me to be able to communicate it

effectively. So it still goes back to

mindset going back to what we talked

about before. It's not just about what

you do, but what you think about what

you do. So what would you need to think

about what you're communicating, why

you're communicating, and how to

communicate it for it to optimize the

communication that you're about to make.

very clear. Why, how, and then how do I

reframe it to make sense to not only to

me but to those I communicate with.

>> That's right,

>> Mural. This was a fantastic conversation

as I knew it would be. You opened up uh

my mind and hopefully everybody is

listening to how we can be more

effective in our own lives and how

leaders can lead better, how we can

unblock ourselves from the things that

get in the way. Thank you for your time

and best of luck with your new book,

Leadership Unblocked.

>> Thank you so much, May. Always a

pleasure to talk to you.

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