Ben Horowitz is way cooler than you think (co-founder a16z)

All right, today we're hanging out with Ben Horwitz, the co-founder of A16Z.

These guys managed 46 billion in assets.

They've invested in Stripe, Coinbase, OpenAI, a bunch of the big hit tech companies, but today we're talking about stuff that you don't usually get to hear from Ben. So things like how do you

from Ben. So things like how do you actually have a high confrontation conversation, the advice he actually gives his founders, things like when he met Mark Zuckerberg and he was really young, what he noticed about Mark that

was different, and what makes him such a great CEO that you can kind of steal or copy from Mark Zuckerberg's playbook.

Sam, what else have we got?

>> Dude, we also just hung out with him, which is like the best part. And so he tells a story about how he helped catch Tupac's killer. Uh, and we also asked

Tupac's killer. Uh, and we also asked him what interests him right now. What

books is he reading? What content is he consuming? What rabbit holes is he going

consuming? What rabbit holes is he going down? And it it was incredibly

down? And it it was incredibly interesting.

>> Awesome conversation with Ben Horwitz.

Enjoy.

>> Okay, so I have a good Tupac story for you.

>> Oh my gosh. All right. I'm incredibly

excited to hear it.

>> So, my wife is like the biggest Las Vegas evangelist in the world and she was uh talking to Quincy Jones's son QD3

and said, "You know, you need to move to Vegas." And he's like, "Fuck that. I'll

Vegas." And he's like, "Fuck that. I'll

never move to Vegas. They didn't solve the Tupac murder."

>> Yeah.

>> You know, his sister Kada was uh dating Tupac. I was like, "Let's have dinner

Tupac. I was like, "Let's have dinner with the Vegas PD and see what happened." And so me and Q3 and Nas uh

happened." And so me and Q3 and Nas uh sit down to dinner with the Las Vegas Police Department and they bring the whole case file. And it turns out the

LAPD really fouled the case, like almost on purpose, it looks like. So at the end of the dinner, I say to the uh chief of police, Mike Janeiro, I'm like, "Mike,

you ought to reopen the Tupac case." And

he goes, "I'll talk to the sheriff." And

it'll next day I call him. I said, 'What the sheriff say? He said, 'If Ben wants us to open the case, we're opening the case. And they reopened the Tupac case.

case. And they reopened the Tupac case.

And they caught the guy. That's insane.

So Sean, like I don't know, Sean, if you know the story, but like basically like, you know, Pac and Suge got in a fight at a at a Tyson Mike Tyson fight and then like 30 or 40 minutes later, he was shot

right in the strip on Las Vegas. And it

was uh a cold case for years, but everyone know knew who did They knew is this guy named Orlando Anderson. Like

that was like the rumor.

>> Orlando pulled the trigger. Kefi D told him to shoot him. Yeah. Exactly.

>> And like everyone knew this, but for some reason like it didn't happen. And

Orlando ended up dying uh a handful of years later. And the what the craziest

years later. And the what the craziest thing ever is there's this guy named DJ Vlad who does these interviews with all these gangsters and he got him to like tell the story about about the murder.

And this idiot like >> went on a podcast and just said, "Yeah, here's what happened."

>> So here's why he did that. He thought he had immunity because the LAPD profered him. Um, which means basically in

him. Um, which means basically in exchange for testimony, we grant you immunity. But they granted him immunity

immunity. But they granted him immunity in LA. Not in Vegas.

in LA. Not in Vegas.

>> The latest PD were like, "Oh, that doesn't count here."

>> And then little do we know that bed's behind the scenes getting it all done.

That's pretty awesome. I I like I filed that case religiously. I thought I thought it was riveting. I did not know that uh you uh you were involved. That's

pretty cool.

>> All right. Well, I don't know where we want to start, but I just thought, you know, usually Ben, you don't know this, but we have a little tradition here. We

We'd like to typically start with our intro music, but for some reason, it's not playing. I'm trying to get this

not playing. I'm trying to get this cassette to play, but it's just not playing. What are we looking at here?

playing. What are we looking at here?

>> Oh, boy. That is uh that's the blind and deaf crew. So my friend um Seth Clark,

deaf crew. So my friend um Seth Clark, this was back in 87 or ' 88 uh or maybe ' 86, got got shot and uh was blind. So

we formed a rap group uh called the Blind and Deaf Crew, DEF. And you know, we had all kinds of grimes about being blind and being deaf. You know,

>> I have one here. It's like

>> the blind deaf crew. You know where fly three of us, but we got four eyes, you know, like that stuff, you know?

Where did you grow I mean like your dad was like a I know who your dad is and he was like he was like a well-known academic but where were you growing up where you uh were around guys who got

shot and rapping? Well, so I grew up in Berkeley uh California which you know, kind of is either like an academic town or part of Oakland depending on,

you know, where you are. And I was in the kind of more part of Oakland, Berkeley. And then, you know, I went to

Berkeley. And then, you know, I went to school in New York. Uh, and so I got into rap in New York and then Seth got shot back in the Bay Area and he was

very, very depressed because he's blind.

He was only he's a kid, you know. So I

sent him these um DJ Red Alert Chuck Chill Out mixtapz. Um you were tapes that I taped off the radio show which had the brand new hip-hop which was you

know really new at the time and uh that kind of cheered him up and so that's how we got into rap when we came around and we didn't succeed but we tried real hard.

>> Well we wanted to just hang out with you because there's you'll do you've done 50,000 podcasts. I think A6Z now has

50,000 podcasts. I think A6Z now has 50,000 podcasts and so >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I could sit here

>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I could sit here and be like, "Hey, is AI a bubble?"

Right? Like we can kind of do that and we'll probably ask you something about AI, but I think more than anything what we try to do on the podcast is give people a sense of what it's like to hang out with Ben Horowits, right? Like what

is it? If they could just be a fly on the wall hanging out and obviously we come from a business and tech background, so we got a bunch of questions around that. But I think for me and Sam, the most interesting part

that I feel like you've you've contributed to the collective wisdom of founders, right, is your stuff on leadership. So you've written two books.

leadership. So you've written two books.

I feel like they're really I don't know like top shelf on how to be a leader and I think it started with a general philosophy. So So tell me why most

philosophy. So So tell me why most management books are terrible. Let's

start with that.

>> You know the problem with management generally I would say is it's very kind of situational um and emotional. And so it's like oh

here's a book to teach you how to play NFL quarterback and you could read that 20 times. you go out on the field like

20 times. you go out on the field like things are extremely different. If

there's a 290lb guy running at you extremely very fast, I'm going to kill you. Like what you feel like what you

you. Like what you feel like what you think, how you process that is just different. And I think management tends

different. And I think management tends to be like that in that it really has to do a lot with your situation and the feeling you have at the time it happens.

And so these management books are written like it's some stepbystep, you know, like you know, you anybody with a basic like eighth grade education can understand the principles of management. They're not that

management. They're not that complicated.

>> Look at the cookbook and you can just follow the rest.

>> Yeah. And it's like, oh, here are the five steps for building a strategy or the three steps for like, you know, setting objectives. It's not actually

setting objectives. It's not actually very useful at all because, you know, that stuff is so simple. So, I always thought like, well, the the difficult thing, you know, you're either going to

like run the risk of running completely out of money if you don't fire half the company, but like you don't want to have that conversation because you promised all these guys that the company was

going to be success when you hired them.

So, like the level of inconsistency that you're going to have to go through, the level of like, you know, I was completely wrong about everything and now I'm going to fire half of you

because I of the mistakes I made will just cause you to hesitate in a way that could cause you the company itself and like how do you get over that? And then

like what do you actually say and how do these conversations work and all this kind of thing is is the actual thing that people need to really kind of get an understanding of like what are the

words you know that get me out of this thing uh at least temporarily and you know nobody had been writing like that.

The last guy who kind of I thought wrote a book like that was Andy Grove back when he wrote High Output Management and you know that book was really old at the time. Uh, so I was like, well, somebody

time. Uh, so I was like, well, somebody ought to write the sequel. You know,

we're now it's been 30 years.

>> Do you think that it's um like when it comes to leading, do you think that it's mostly just getting your mindset right?

I mean, is that what you're saying?

Where it's like >> No, no, no. It's more it's more complicated than that. Um, you kind of strive to get to a point of honesty, like true honesty, where you're actually being

true, like you're not lying to yourself.

That's hard, you know, that it's almost like um you know, like if you're you guys are kind of creatives on the pub, but like to be like a great creative at some point you have to get all the way

to that very vulnerable point where you've exposed yourself in all your issues and weaknesses and and everything and like leadership is a little bit like that and that you're kind of pushing and

pushing and pushing to get all the way to what's true. So that's, you know, that's part of the process, but the other thing is just, you know, you you don't really

necessarily completely know what you're doing, particularly when you start and you're building a company. And so you have to kind of have like it's a confidence game where you have to talk yourself into, okay, you know, like I I

think I know enough, you know, to do this. And you know, it can be very

this. And you know, it can be very little things. Like I had a conversation

little things. Like I had a conversation with an entrepreneur. He's like, Ben, like I need your help. And I was like, "Why do you need my help?" He says, "My CTO is an asshole." And I said, "Well, okay. Uh, but you know, like he's a good

okay. Uh, but you know, like he's a good CTO. I know that from talking to you

CTO. I know that from talking to you before." I said, "You're you're not even

before." I said, "You're you're not even asking me." Said, "You fire him, are

asking me." Said, "You fire him, are you?" And he's like, "No, I'm not asking

you?" And he's like, "No, I'm not asking you that." And I said, "Well, tell me

you that." And I said, "Well, tell me why he's an [ __ ] and may maybe I can help." And he goes, "Well, you know, he

help." And he goes, "Well, you know, he made like a young woman in our on our finance team cry yesterday." And I was like, "Okay, yeah, that's kind of

mean-spirited for a CTO to do that." And

I said, 'Well, you know, so you're really kind of asking me like not how to fire him, but just how to have a conversation with him about his behavior without him quitting. That's what you're

saying. And he's like, "Yeah." And I

saying. And he's like, "Yeah." And I said, "Well, look, here's what I would say to him. I would say, "Hey, you know, you're a fantastic director of

engineering, but you're not an effective CTO and you know, if you want to be a director of engineering forever, like we can just run just like this and it's no

problem. You do a great job in managing

problem. You do a great job in managing your team. You get stuff done on time.

your team. You get stuff done on time.

You're great. But you're not effective with the rest of the organization." And

that's what a CTO is. the CTO has got to marshall the resources of the whole company to get what he needs to get the job done. And if you go to like a junior

job done. And if you go to like a junior person, you're like five levels below you and make her cry, you know, you're probably right, but like you're never going to get what you

want out of her. So like you can't be effective with her. Like how are you going to be effective with like exacts?

So if you want to learn how to do that, like let's learn how to do that. but you

know and if not no problem but just know at some point I got to bring in a CTO that's where I would have the conversation with them and that kind of got them to okay now I can talk them and so so much of like the mistakes that

CEOs make are like they just don't even know how to have the conversation and so it's it's a little bit like the mindset part is correct and that there is like a confidence part about it uh where you

have to be able to kind of do things when you're not sure that you're right but there's techniques and there's ideas and there's things in there that you know it's just harder than it looks. And

the problem is the mistakes like not talking to him is going to multiply, right? Like because now you're going to

right? Like because now you're going to isolate engineering and nobody's going to like them and you're going to have politics in the company and like and and and and then pretty soon people just don't even want to work there and you have high attrition and then you know

well why the [ __ ] do we have high attrition and this and that and the other and then the board's all upset and this so it kind of snowballs on you if if you can't deal with these things.

>> Man this is so cool because I just read this book called the motive and the whole book is how to have a conversation like that. So basically like someone

like that. So basically like someone show and it's like small stuff. So, it's

like someone shows up too late for a meeting, they're not prepared, they made someone cry. And I remember reading this

someone cry. And I remember reading this and I was like, I don't want to talk about this on the pod maybe because I think I feel stupid that I'm having to learn like a script on how to like someone >> and uh and then I hear you talking about

this and I'm like, all right, I feel a little bit better because why why is this conversation hard for me? I feel

like this should be easy. I I don't know what to say. I literally don't know what words to use to for this to be an effective confrontation. And so, I had

effective confrontation. And so, I had to read a book. And so it's actually really cool to hear you describe that other people I think you even said I saw other interview about Zuck and I think you referenced Sam Alman. You're like

I've seen inside these companies they all face these like challenging situations where they just don't know how to like communicate.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Know people get stuck and and you know like no nobody there there's no way to learn like how to be CEO of like a big company without kind

of being CEO. And so you found a company and it starts growing and you don't know what you're doing and you make mistakes and it's very scary and uh you know it's easy to lose your confidence and if you

lose your confidence you hesitate and if you hesitate as CEO then somebody's got to step into that vacuum and then that's when it becomes very like political and

dysfunctional.

>> All right. A few episodes ago, I talked about something and I got thousands of messages asking me to go deeper into explain and that's what I'm about to do.

So, I told you guys how I use chat GBT as a life coach or a thought partner.

And what I did was I uploaded all types of amazing information. So, I uploaded my personal finances, my net worth, my goals, different books that I like, issues going on in my personal life and

businesses. I uploaded so much

businesses. I uploaded so much information. And so the output is that I

information. And so the output is that I have this GPT that I can ask questions that I'm having issues with in my life like how should I respond to this email?

What's the right decision knowing that you know my goals for the future? Things

like that. And so I worked with HubSpot to put together a step-by-step process showing the audience, showing you the software that I use to make this the information that I had chat GBT ask me

all this stuff. So it's super easy for you to use. And like I said, I use this like 10 or 20 times a day. It's

literally changed my life. And so if you want that, it's free. There's a link below. Just click it, enter your email,

below. Just click it, enter your email, and we will send you everything you need to know to set this up in just about 20 minutes, and I'll show you how I use it again, 10 to 20 times a day. Um, all

right. So, check it out. The link is below in the description. Back to the episode.

You've said before like having confrontation the right way is super important. And I nodded my head and then

important. And I nodded my head and then I was like, cool. I really don't know how to do that though. So, okay. What?

So, what is the right way to have confrontation?

>> And it's complicated, but like the first thing is you got to stop thinking about yourself, right? So, you know, and it

yourself, right? So, you know, and it could be anything. It could be like firing somebody or getting them to change their behavior or whatever, you're you're going to be saying

something that they don't want to hear.

And so I think people get caught up in well either I need to be a tough guy or I need them to like me or you know some

other thing that's about you. But

really, you have to go, okay, what am I going to say to them that isolates it to this thing that I'm really talking about, you know? So, if I need them to

change this behavior, like, how do I get them to hear that in a way they can actually act on it without getting in their feelings? And

you know, in order to do that, you just have to be like very straightforward and you have to be open with how you feel about like if you think they're a shitbird, then you're probably going to have to fire them anyway. But if you

think they're otherwise good, then you kind of have to let them know that, but in a way where you're not clearly setting them up. You know, you're not

giving them a [ __ ] sandwich. You're the

greatest person in the world, but this is all [ __ ] up and I love you. like

that that like people are on to that like that it's just too simple. So you

kind of have to, you know, you have to get to a very honest place with them and say, "Look, you know, we're working together on this that you're doing this.

It's not working. It's not effective."

And, you know, like I can help you get to it to be effective, but I need you to get it to be effective. Like you have to get that message across. And a lot of it, you know, like people will accept

things from you if they feel like you're basically telling them the truth. Like

you're I'm like completely open and honest about this [ __ ] Like I'm not I'm not telling you it's worse than it is and I'm not telling you it's better than it is. I'm telling you what it is. Uh

it is. I'm telling you what it is. Uh

and and this is you know when I said earlier about like a lot of leadership is getting all the way to the truth. You

have to sit with yourself on to say like what do I really think about this? Like

not what like [ __ ] were complaining about him or this happened or you know like it hurt my feelings the way like this went down like he's doing that in my company. You kind of have to

get beyond that and go like what's really true? Why did they do it? You

really true? Why did they do it? You

know, can it be corrected? If it can be corrected, what would motivate them to correct it? Like you you have to get all

correct it? Like you you have to get all the way to to that. Otherwise, what

happens is, you know, they're just going to get upset and defensive or like, you know, they're not going to hear it cuz it's too soft. And it's like, well,

yeah, like Ben kind of doesn't like that, but he doesn't really care. Um,

so, you know, how do you get into that like meaningful place where people can hear what you're talking about?

>> And you've invested in and known for a long time a lot of the tech, the biggest tech CEOs. And I would say the

tech CEOs. And I would say the stereotype of the most successful tech founders is this sort of like slightly autistic, very high IQ, lower EQ sort of

persona. But that's not really what

persona. But that's not really what would be good at the thing you're talking about. And so what is it that

talking about. And so what is it that that stereotype is just wrong and that's not what you've seen when you've kind of been you guys I think invested in Facebook early on stuff like that like is it that the stereotype is wrong? Is

it that they learned these things? Is

there like some are they taking touchyfey at Stanford? Like what what's helping them be able to do this?

>> Yeah. So I think some of these guys have like much higher people understanding than you might think. Like the ones who truly like can't read people and understand people don't get like they

don't become Mark Zuckerberg. Uh Mark

Zuckerberg like his mom by the way is like a psychiatrist or psychologist and like he's actually pretty insightful and and you can see it like in the deals

he's negotiated the moves he's made you know the guys who are processing information at that rate of speed you know it's a little weird like you always feel like okay what the

[ __ ] is wrong with my clock like this guy's thinking faster than me but so the my very first conversation I had with Zach was I think in 2007

and you know at that time if you guys recall you know the Facebook traffic had flattened and the current the executive staff that he had at the time was trying

to run a coup to force him to sell it to Yahoo. So they they were leaking all

Yahoo. So they they were leaking all this stuff to Valley Rag at the time and Valley Rag was you know calling for Zuck to be fired and you know that whole stupidness. That was like that famous

stupidness. That was like that famous story where you like didn't sell, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I meant he didn't sell. Uh

but you know, right at that time, you know, his first question to me was, you know, should I if I fired my executive team for the second time, would the board be nervous? I was like,

well, you know, it's not that's not even the question, Mark, because you know, if you're asking that question, then you know, you kind of have to do it because you you can't succeed with them. So, you

know, whether or not you can see succeed without them is like at least a question mark. Like, you know, you're going to

mark. Like, you know, you're going to die with them. Uh, and I said, but like, you know, like let's talk about like why they're they're doing this, you know,

like why has traffic been flat. And he

said, well, he said, look, we doubled the size of the engineering team this year. We went from 400 to 800 engineers.

year. We went from 400 to 800 engineers.

Um, and we had, you know, the way the product is architected, we had like a MySQL layer and then an API and then the applications are built on the API, but a lot of the new engineers just wrote

straight to my SQL and they likeked up the whole thing and now it takes like 10 seconds to log in and so traffic flattened because of that.

And I was like, well, how do you train these guys? And he said, train these

these guys? And he said, train these guys. And I never forget that. And I was

guys. And I never forget that. And I was like, oh [ __ ] I said, "Zack, like when when you're 10 people, there's no knowledge in the company, like everybody just comes on and they jump in and they start working and it's so forth. But you

get to like 800 people, a thousand people. Like you have a lot of knowledge

people. Like you have a lot of knowledge that's in your company about like how the product works, how you check in code, everything. You actually have to

code, everything. You actually have to teach people that because they don't know who to ask or how to learn that on their own." Um, and so you have to do

their own." Um, and so you have to do that. And like just you know to show you

that. And like just you know to show you what a like great CEO he ended up being.

He created this two-month boot camp for like everybody in product management.

Every engineer who entered Facebook had to go through this thing, learn everything and so forth. So he was like he you know like he's like a phenomenal

student of management. Uh you know before he became like now you know now he's won't call him a student. He's a

great CEO, but like a lot of these guys, you know, can figure out the people part pretty fast, I would say. And like I said, the ones who truly

don't understand people are don't actually turn out to be good CEOs. Like

they they they don't get to that level.

Like you can, you know, you can make fun of Larry Page or Elon or Zuck or so forth, but they are actually very smart about people. All three of them.

about people. All three of them.

>> You you have these great stories. That's

a great story. Uh, one I think that's in your new book is a story that I feel like is relevant to kind of any business size. So, some of these it's like, oh,

size. So, some of these it's like, oh, well, my company's never going to be 20,000 people, so like I don't really I can't really relate to this. But one, I thought it was about collection. It was

about collecting money, which I think is a, you know, whether you're like an accountant and you have to do this for your clients, your 10 clients, or you're a big business. And I think it's the CEO of Nation uh LA.

>> Yeah. Can you tell this story? I thought

this was a phenomenal story.

>> Yeah. So, you know, then they're they're kind of we're living on the edge, you know, they need every kind of thing collected uh possible and you know, she

was just like, you know, cash collections would just be, you know, and there were all this dumb stuff that would happen like they sent out the wrong kind of email or this and that and you know, they didn't get the thing and

so forth. And I said, you know, I

so forth. And I said, you know, I learned this technique actually from Andy, um, Andy Grove, where like if a project was off track, he would just go,

"Okay, 8 a.m. every day, we're going to meet on it, and I'm going to be in the meeting, and I'm going to want answers."

Uh and what that meeting actually turns into is you know every dumb thing going on you can just resolve very very fast because

people don't know who to ask how to resolve it you know whether it's a problem and so forth. So, I said, "Leah, just like every day 8:00 a.m. get

everybody in the cash collection team together and start the meeting by saying like,"Where's my money? Like, why

haven't we collected it?" And like, make them explain to you why they haven't collected it. And you'll be shocked at

collected it. And you'll be shocked at why they haven't collected it. And sure

enough, you know, it's like, "Well, we didn't know we could edit the email."

And she's like, "You didn't know you could edit the email?" like but but it's you know those kinds of things start popping up. Oh, I didn't know that I

popping up. Oh, I didn't know that I could do this um because this is what we ought to be doing but we're not doing it because I don't think I'm allowed to do it. And it's like well no I'm the CEO.

it. And it's like well no I'm the CEO.

You're allowed to do it. And then that can unstick a like dumb pro, you know, a project that's way off track or or a process that's off track or so forth. So it's

kind of like a different idea about management where you know the the enemy as as you grow like communication becomes your biggest

challenge. And so it's just a way to go

challenge. And so it's just a way to go like okay I'm going to manually unscalably fix communication in this organization right now. And the the amazing thing about it is does tend to

be very longlasting where like once they get that um then you know it sustains. I

had a experience with a founder you invested in. Do do you know uh Sulie

invested in. Do do you know uh Sulie Ali? He's one of my good buddies and you

Ali? He's one of my good buddies and you guys invested in uh Tiny uh back in the day. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

day. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. He does this this exact thing. The

founder emailed us and was like, "Hey, um would you know we're going to start raising money uh you know we really need to raise money so um it's important and I would just love to pick your brain on what it was like a very like can I pick

your brain? Would you like to go get

your brain? Would you like to go get coffee for this? My house is on fire."

>> And we were like wait just to clarify is the house on fire? He's like, "Yeah, yeah, the house is on fire." So, we said, "Okay, well, let's meet like now.

Why are you emailing me? Let's just talk right now." And so, he jumps on the call

right now." And so, he jumps on the call and like, "Okay, what do you have so far? You know, let's raise the money."

far? You know, let's raise the money."

And he's like, "Uh, here's the pitch deck."

deck." >> And basically, in the first 30 minutes, we just gave him like, "Hey, here's three things. Let's go. Like, these are

three things. Let's go. Like, these are the three most important things you got to change.

>> This is this part of the story is broken. You're missing this information.

broken. You're missing this information.

And you know, you're not you're framing it the wrong way. You got to frame it this way." And he's like, "Okay, this is

this way." And he's like, "Okay, this is so helpful. Wow. Thank you guys. Um

so helpful. Wow. Thank you guys. Um

would love to touch base again next week. And Sulie was like, "Next week.

week. And Sulie was like, "Next week.

How long do you think it'll take you to make those three changes?" He's like, "Well," he's like, "How about we meet today at 3 p.m." And you show me. And we

did two a days with that. And I I it kind of broke my brain a little bit cuz there was like this invisible wall as a business person like you don't meet twice in a day. Like that would be a phauxa, you know? Like it's like bad

manners. It's like [ __ ] your manners

manners. It's like [ __ ] your manners when it's like was this a big problem or not? like just clarify that for me

not? like just clarify that for me because if it is a big problem then I'll just keep showing up and saying okay now what okay now what and okay now and if you just do that for three days the like all of the excuses get squeezed away is

what I found like all the excuses suddenly disappear and you get to the brass tax about what's going on it was amazing >> that's definitely right no that's uh you know yeah and I actually had a lot of

conversations about he he went through a lot of crises in that so he he he knows >> can I ask you about confidence um you give a talk with a bunch of your portfolio companies about I think I saw

you say that like they don't fail due to lack of competence but a lack of confidence.

>> I would say the number one reason why a founder fails at the CEO job is some kind of lack of confidence, crisis

of confidence, whatever it is that causes them to hesitate basically. Okay,

I should do this and I can see that I should do this, but I'm not sure I should do this, so I'm going to wait.

>> If you had to teach a class uh on how to improve someone's confidence, is do you have like a framework or uh some bullet points that you would that you would stand by?

>> It ends up being like at the end of the day, confidence is personal. Um and you have to feel it yourself to have it.

Like I can't um you know, it's like the Wizard of Oz. It's like I, you know, I can give you like a clock and tell you it's a heart or whatever, but like at

some point you've got to believe that.

And the thing that causes the crisis in confidence is, you know, okay, you invent something, you hire a bunch of people, you make a decision, it's wrong,

people really suffer from it. You feel

horrible because you're like, wow, I don't know what I'm doing and I made a mistake and it had real consequences.

Like most people in life don't have a situation like that until they become CEO. And so then you know it's like well

CEO. And so then you know it's like well how do I how do I recover that? And so

like a lot of the idea of the firm is like well you know what if you could call anybody like how would that make you feel like what if you could call anybody you know in the White House in

Congress in you know like any executive you know any kind of big company CEO and be able to have a conversation you know like what if we could build that network

for you. So that was kind of the idea

for you. So that was kind of the idea behind the platform. And then you know we would do I used to have this event which I should probably bring back but I I ran out of room in my backyard called

the CEO barbecue where we would bring all the CEOs for the portfolio and then we would just like put like very famous people around them. So we had like Zuck and Larry Page and Kanye all at a

barbecue and they're at the barbecue and there's no like talks, there's no business agenda, there's no nothing, there's no even toast, right? like it's

just a barbecue and so it was just to make him feel like oh [ __ ] like I know Kanye like I'm I I have to be somewhat important like so so you're trying to like imbue this feeling that like I may

not totally know what I'm doing but I should be CEO you know >> but I'm at a barbecue with Kanye and so I can't be totally >> what about what about the inverse when you look at a CEO and you're like oh

they have just like hit this fork in the road now confidence is going to go horribly is going to go down and it's going to be the their demise What decisions do those people make? Like

what are the commonalities between the people who lose it that way?

>> Sort of like the Charlie Munger, like tell me where I'm going to die so I know not to go there, right? What would be the decisions I would make to to take me off the path?

>> I would say the big thing is it's almost like a lack of decision, right? Like

it's a hesitation. In the football, they always say like trust, you have to trust your eyes because you could be really fast, but if you don't start running when you see the thing, if you wait,

then you're not fast. Um, and that's kind of what it's like for CEOs. Like,

you could be really, really smart, but if you wait too long before you pull the trigger, you're not smart anymore. It's

too late. And there there's all kinds of like excuses people tell themselves to not make a decision. And so for example, like the one of the um biggest ones on

an executive like is well if you know we made such a big deal when we hired him like what is the press going to say or what are the people in

the company going to say or you know I don't have time to hire a new person to do the job that this guy's [ __ ] up.

you know, like these kinds of there's all these reasons not to make the decision. Um, and they're all just if

decision. Um, and they're all just if you think about them for more than like five minutes, you go, "Well, that doesn't make any [ __ ] sense because this guy's like [ __ ] up the whole org." Like, who gives a [ __ ] what the

org." Like, who gives a [ __ ] what the press says? Like, you just get rid of

press says? Like, you just get rid of him. Like, start rebuilding now, you

him. Like, start rebuilding now, you know? Like, it's not if he's doing a bad

know? Like, it's not if he's doing a bad job. Like, no job is better than a bad

job. Like, no job is better than a bad job. Like, I think we all know that. and

job. Like, I think we all know that. and

everything kind of ends up like that. I

don't know enough to make the decision.

Like I didn't give them enough of a chance. This and that and the other. So

chance. This and that and the other. So

it's it's kind of that lack of confidence that generally causes a no decision where there really needs to be a decision uh is is the main I would say that's the common pattern.

>> Yeah. So in the two examples you gave the first one was like ah the CTO blah blah blah and that's kind of like avoiding the conversation >> would be the the mistake there. And then

in this one like avoiding the decision would be the mistake.

>> Yeah. You have to, you know, I wrote a post a long time ago called, you know, run out the pain and darkness. You have

to run out the pain and darkness. You

can't run away from it. If you run away from it, it's all bad.

>> You're pretty good at u titling blog posts and books. I think uh you know the hard things about the hard things like badass. But I think you said that I

badass. But I think you said that I think in the in the publishing industry typically the author's book title is not the winning title. And I think you were like bragging that you're like that's my title. I came up with it. They ran with

title. I came up with it. They ran with it.

>> Yeah. I I I int like I didn't actually want to write the book. They asked me to write the book

book. They asked me to write the book the the publisher. So I felt like I didn't do what I wanted. So I I called it what I wanted. Yeah.

>> What um what do you what excites you? So

this you know a lot of the stuff we talked about is like the hard stuff, the pain and uh but nobody gets into this for just the pain, right? Nobody gets

into this to do the the pain is just a sort of necessary that we we go through to to do the good stuff. Uh I'm just curious what are you really excited about right now? Like what are either you know rabbit holes you're going down cool stuff you've seen that you can't

haven't been able to forget? Like what's

really cool and interesting to Ben Horowitz? Well, so one of the most

Horowitz? Well, so one of the most exciting things that's going on now, um, is you, you know, like kind of it's well known that

the United States has kind of fallen behind in defense, manufacturing, rare earth minerals, all these kinds of uh things. But what's been very exciting is

things. But what's been very exciting is like there are startups that are like, oh, I'll solve that for America. And so

like we have a company uh that we just funded recently periodic labs which is using AI to do like novel material science to kind of enable better kind of

design of everything from like rockets to missiles to you know all sorts of things. And then we have a company

things. And then we have a company cobalt uh metals that is basically using AI. So they take a dirt sample and they

AI. So they take a dirt sample and they use AI to analyze the dirt sample and they can tell you oh yeah there's going to be like you know copper below that um

you know whatever a mile down into the earth. Uh and so you know these kinds of

earth. Uh and so you know these kinds of techniques where you're kind of using tech to go oh no we're going to catch up fast is been like very very exciting. I

would say >> my my view as a founder on the ground is just that sometimes you see something and like I said it it breaks like a imaginary wall you had and um and

sometimes things become cool and cool although we tried to not like follow trends sometimes you could use your psychology for you rather than against you and so the idea you know seeing what Elon has done >> where it's like oh he goes into these

really hard spaces and does these like like hardware hard tech little literal rocket science right and sort of unafraid of that or you and going in and doing, you know, weapons and defense

tech and making that cool to be kind of patriotic in that way. Is that what it was? Is that what it took or was there

was? Is that what it took or was there something else to it?

>> You know, there's a lot they're very challenging companies to build in some ways. Um, but on the other hand,

ways. Um, but on the other hand, you know, it's a good time to do them because people because Elon has I mean,

God bless Elon for showing that it was possible. So now whereas like only Elon

possible. So now whereas like only Elon could have financed Tesla, normal people can start to finance these things now because Elon has shown that it's possible. So it's a little bit like

it's possible. So it's a little bit like the four-minute mile in that way I would say. But yeah, I mean like you know the

say. But yeah, I mean like you know the things that Yeah. And even in like public safety, you look at something like, you know, flock safety. In a way, technologically, it's not nearly as

complicated as some of the other as like a uh as an andril or something like that, but it's very very powerful. I mean, you know, they really make uh both kind of

policing being a citizen and even being a criminal more safe because all of the sudden you're using AI to provide real intelligence. So, you know, for example,

intelligence. So, you know, for example, in Las Vegas where we deployed it, a huge problem, a huge problem in like police violence, um, police getting

killed are traffic stops. And a big reason for that is somebody reports there's a, you know, a 1998

Honda Acura that's driving that's brown um that kidnapped a baby. Okay, so

that's a real situation, but like that description is usually wrong. Like the

description of the actual car is usually wrong. So you have flax safety, you have

wrong. So you have flax safety, you have the exact match. So the difference between a cop going into a situation where they may have the wrong guy and if they have the wrong guy the guy is could

get very agitated and then you have a bad situation or they know 100% this guy he is in a car that we know is the car and there's a baby in the back that's

not his. Okay, you're going in with a

not his. Okay, you're going in with a whole you're not sending a single person in there with a gun coming off their motorcycle. like you've got a whole team

motorcycle. like you've got a whole team that's going to make sure that that person is apprehended safely and correctly and the baby is safe.

>> I've heard I've heard flocks this amazing thing. Is it drones? Is it

amazing thing. Is it drones? Is it

cameras? What are they doing?

>> Yeah. You know, so so it's it's primarily like a camera system uh where AI will basically so somebody does something, you know, they grab the car on the camera, that car shows up on another camera anywhere in the city and

they're like, "Oh, there it is." And

actually, that's how they caught, interestingly, the the the Tesla terrorist who set the Tesla ship on fire

in Las Vegas was he came in earlier to case the place. Flock safety picked up the car. They saw the car come back um

the car. They saw the car come back um at night and they were like, "Oh, we know whose car that is." And they just went and arrested him.

>> Did you guys um see that ad? I think it was like two weeks ago. I I was trying to find it. It was went viral on Twitter, but it was basically I believe it was a solar company. Was it a solar company where they're recruiting

employees and they had a whole website just dedicated to the recruitment uh aspect of just they needed more staff and they bought an ad in the New York Times, I believe, or some newspaper and it was like um uh an old man sitting

with like what it looked like his grandson overlooking a mountain or and and they were like overlooking I think it was solar panels. I'm not exactly sure, but it was like, do you really want to tell your grandkids that you

spent your entire 30s and 40s building just B2B software? It was great. And it

like and there's this whole trend amongst uh young people on Twitter of like being more traditional and things like that. And I think that to answer

like that. And I think that to answer your question, Sean, about Androl and and Elon. I think that it's kind of been

and Elon. I think that it's kind of been like a perfect spiral or a perfect mix of like people seeing Elon and and Palmer do these interesting things and also just like getting sick of just

building B2B software or something, you know, that's just a stereotype for what's boring. That's may or may not be

what's boring. That's may or may not be true, but like uh you know, like seeing this like there could be more out there.

I think that the the software had to get good enough to of course make um make these other things possible which is you know and it's amazing that we're at that

time where you can really imagine changing the world in all kinds of ways.

>> You uh you get to see a lot of pitches of the smartest people in the world telling you what the future's going to look like in 5 years. And so you have this like element of your job that's a little bit like a time traveler. So you

you probably have a better sense of what the world look nobody has a perfect sense but you have a better sense of what the world looks like you know 5 7 10 years from now. You don't know exactly when. You don't know who's going

exactly when. You don't know who's going to do it. What's broken your brain either from a demo or a story pitch that you've heard uh you know sometime in the last year or so that that the rest of us will experience you know sometime in the future.

>> Yeah. So I think you know one of the things that um I mean you and everybody's talking about embodied AI and robots and so forth and rightly so but I I would say like in the creative

space I I'm starting to realize like this AI video and so forth it's not like making the old thing more efficient. It's a new

medium. It's an actual new thing in the

medium. It's an actual new thing in the same ways that like movies weren't plays.

uh you know AI video is not video. The

stories that you can tell are completely different because you can do things that you just you know without a $200 million budget you had no chance of doing and now it's like no problem and I think

that's going to be like very very very interesting and then the how well it's working on like existing stuff. So

people you know the people who are on the cutting edge of the movie industry are now you know, they're able to do like whole

movie scenes or edit or change their movie, have the AI actor do the uh do the do the third cut at at a level of quality that even the the actor doesn't

know it wasn't them doing the acting and and that kind of thing. So, it's I think it's going to change dramatically again and and there's going to be kind of white space for not only new creatives

but new entertainment entrepreneurs and so forth that nobody is really imagining now.

>> Is there any AI content that you consume as a fan?

>> Yeah. I don't know. Well, like you know, I have been watching that uh the one with the cat um was pretty good over the over the weekend. the cat playing all

the instruments and the lady coming out.

Unfortunately, like you got to cut that racket out. Do you guys see that one?

racket out. Do you guys see that one?

>> That was pretty good. Yeah, I think it's a Sora video.

>> Ben, do you mess around on Sunno at all with AI music?

>> Yeah, Sunno. Um, and uh, you know, 11 Labs has a model and uh, UIO's got a very good model. So, there there's there's a few different really good models. Like I feel like I could have a

models. Like I feel like I could have a music career again. That's going to be very very interesting to me because it it sort of like one thing that hip-hop

showed was so people don't really realize this but this is something Quincy Jones pointed out to me before he passed. He said you know Ben like

passed. He said you know Ben like hip-hop started like exactly when they canceled all the music programs in schools like it was the same the the exact same time when people didn't learn

to play instruments in schools.

That's when that is exactly when hip-hop began. And hip-hop kind of freed you as

began. And hip-hop kind of freed you as a somebody who was like a musical talent from actually having to learn to play an

instrument. Uh which you know and and

instrument. Uh which you know and and even for the producers, right? Like you

had a drum machine, you had samples, so you could hear what you liked and play it, but you didn't need to be a virtuoso. And that kind of opened up a

virtuoso. And that kind of opened up a world that we didn't have before. And I

think AI music is kind of that on steroids.

>> I don't know if you guys know the number one song in the country right now is an AI country artist. It's called Walk My Walk.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And um the first I think the first AI artist that got a record deal recently like you know so this is definitely what the future >> looks like is people who non-m musicians. It's just like, you know,

musicians. It's just like, you know, Replet and others make it so that you don't have to be a coder to make apps >> and now you don't have to be a musician to make music. And I don't think people really understand how big of a deal that

is. Like my my personal trainer who's

is. Like my my personal trainer who's been in the fitness world his whole life.

>> Yeah.

>> Has been in a rabbit hole making he's probably in the top.1% of AI creators in the world right now creating music. And

he's like got like a full band. He's

like his own record label and every day he's up till 2:00 in the morning >> and he knows these programs inside and out. And because it wasn't really

out. And because it wasn't really accessible to somebody who didn't have >> uh you know musical talent before to be able to make music, >> right? There's a big difference between

>> right? There's a big difference between >> taste and creativity and being a virtuoso violinist, right? Like those

those don't necessarily have to be the same thing. And it's great that you know

same thing. And it's great that you know people, you know, whatever practice violin for 3 hours a day and like get get amazing at it and all that kind of thing, but it

it's pretty neat to have a world where like, okay, if you can just do this part, you can still play.

>> Sean, can you ask you have this really cool light about the rules of culture and making them uh memorable?

>> Well, yeah. So when I'm doing the research, one of the things that stands out is like you talk about culture, you talk about like and which is normally culture is like I just fall asleep because it is so overtalked about in the business world. You like you got to

business world. You like you got to really tell me something new.

>> Overtalked about without anybody saying anything culture. Culture,

anything culture. Culture, >> right?

>> So cool. Tell me your values like integrity. Like all right, great. Glad

integrity. Like all right, great. Glad

to hear it. I was worried it was going to be the opposite, right? Like it

doesn't really tell you anything. And

you know when you go walk into the company the stuff on the wall doesn't match the stuff you see happening within the four walls. So it's just you you get sort of disillusioned in a way but when you see somebody doing something interesting or you or somebody actually

pulling it off which of course there are examples I get interested. So, one thing that I thought was cool, a nuance that I hadn't really heard before was you were talking about how at 86Z you kind of

take time to drive the culture like I think in the new onboarding you like I do a culture session one hour they sign something at the end and one of the nuances I thought that was interesting was you said >> my rule for writing the kind of like the

culture rules is it has to have some shock value like it has to give per the other person like a what the hell are you talking about type of reaction if it's going to be memorable. I think the idea was if it's not memorable, it's

never going to be remembered or used. So

you have to do something to make it memorable. Can you talk about your

memorable. Can you talk about your theory around this?

>> Yeah. So I mean it kind of comes down to what you do every day, right? Like it's

a daily habit. So you know this idea that you put cultural values on the wall and then in the once a year in a performance review you say do you follow the culture? It's like that that means

the culture? It's like that that means absolutely nothing, right? It's nothing.

And so it's like, well, what do you do every day? And so like one of the things

every day? And so like one of the things we do every day is like we meet with entrepreneurs. So like, what's a rule

entrepreneurs. So like, what's a rule that sets the culture around that? So

it's like, well, if you're late for that meeting, it's $10 a minute. It's like,

well, $10 a minute. Like, well, what if I have to go to the bathroom? Yeah, you

owe me $50. I don't care. Um, you know what? What if I had an important phone

what? What if I had an important phone call? You owe me $100. Like, I don't

call? You owe me $100. Like, I don't care you had an unimportant phone call.

Well, like why am I paying to work here?

you know, well because building a company is extremely hard and culturally we want to have the ultimate respect for that and we don't want to waste any entrepreneurs time and so that's your most important thing. So you have to plan to do that.

>> You guys have a fine now. You're talking

this is a real A16.

>> Yeah. So every time I have to like go to the meeting, you know, like I have to think about that because I've got to be on time. I

got to [ __ ] plan my day. So like

there's not I'm not backtoback on that one. I got to be on time otherwise, you

one. I got to be on time otherwise, you know, I'm going to be embarrassed and all that kind of thing. And so, well, why and why am I doing that? And then

that, okay, if you do that, that's a habit that makes you go, okay, like, no, I'm going to respect what this is. I

know how hard it is to build a company.

I may not even know how hard it is, but I know that like somebody here thinks it's hard enough that I have to show up on time.

>> So, can you keep can you tell some more of those um interesting like you know the the tardiness paying thing? That's

pretty cool. What are some other >> Yeah. So as well a second one is like if

>> Yeah. So as well a second one is like if you um if you talk smack about an entrepreneur on X you're fired. It

doesn't matter if they're in the portfolio or not. You're just that's it.

Uh and why is that? You know well culturally first of all we're dream builders. We're not dream killers. If

builders. We're not dream killers. If

you want to do something bigger than yourself and make the world a better place I don't care what it is. I don't

care if I think it's stupid. I'm for

that. I'm not against that. I am for that. And I don't care if like Sequoia

that. And I don't care if like Sequoia funded you or Benchmark funded you. I'm

for that. Like go get it. Like we're a pro entrepreneur. And then, you know,

pro entrepreneur. And then, you know, kind of related to that, I don't want to give anybody credit for making themselves look smart by making somebody else look stupid. Like I don't want to

give anybody like a gold star for saying that guy's, you know, making selling dollars for 85 cents. Ho ho. I'm so

clever. you know, like [ __ ] you. Like,

no, we're not doing that here. And so,

it's it's that kind of thing where it's like, oh, that seems like a harsh punishment, but I get it. I get it because I've heard it and and I

understand it. And so then that's like a

understand it. And so then that's like a way to kind of show up behaviorally daily as opposed to um you know, like

look, here's the problem with integrity.

What does that mean? Right? Like

integrity only matters when it's tested.

Everybody has integrity. Everybody's

honest until it's tested. And then when it's tested, very few people are, right?

Like when it costs you money, when it cost you a deal, when it cost you your marriage, are you honest then?

Um because that's the actual thing. And

so you can't just have it in the abstract. You have to say like what

abstract. You have to say like what behaviors do you have to have to work here? You know, how responsive do you

here? You know, how responsive do you have to be? These things end up making the culture much more so than like a

value or like one thing I really like is the um the the samurai called them virtues. They didn't call them values.

virtues. They didn't call them values.

It's like these are the virtues. Like

the this is your way of being. This

isn't like some [ __ ] it's not a set of ideas. It's a set of actions. A

of ideas. It's a set of actions. A

culture is a set of actions.

>> Listen to this, Sean. So, if you go to a6zz.com/about,

a6zz.com/about, you'll see their values. And I just want to read like I've never seen this before, so I'm just going to read a couple of them, but the six one the six out of seven. It's we play to win. Our

culture only matters if we're important.

And in order to be important, we must win. We are the best firm in the world,

win. We are the best firm in the world, so we expect to win there. It's just

like that's fantastic. I love that. And

that's I don't know if controversial is the right word, but it's polarizing, right? Not a lot of people are are into

right? Not a lot of people are are into that, but that's that's badass. And then

you say uh you have another one that I really like. We only do we only do first

really like. We only do we only do first class business and only in a first class way. I think that's a really

way. I think that's a really >> I actually stole that phrasing from JP Morgan.

>> So cool. He said it in court. They were

accusing him of some kind of like uh crazy like market manipulation and he >> the JP JP Morgan. Yeah.

JP Morgan. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think that was I think I read about that line in the uh Andrew Sorcid's got that like 1928 or 29 book and and I think it says that but that's great.

>> So but okay. So but like when I go to this site and I see these I'm like okay this is kind of like these are like the highle principles but you what you were saying just now is a little bit different. You were like hey look

different. You were like hey look >> well there's got to be behaviors that support the principles. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So you you you basically were like what are the daily situations and actions where we have a choice? we

either show up this way or we show up this way and we're going to show up this way and sometimes with a a penalty, a punishment or a praise ba based on like the extreme behava version of that behavior with the no tolerance policy,

right? Like and I think there's this

right? Like and I think there's this great uh military quote that you have in your book.

>> Oh yeah. Well, if you um if you see something below standard uh and you don't correct it, you set a new standard and and that's a that's very true. And

that's why they have to be specific because if they're not specific, you can't enforce it. How do you enforce like you don't have integrity? That just

gets weaponized. It's like that guy doesn't have inte he's not following the cultural value. You know, he doesn't

cultural value. You know, he doesn't have why does he have integrity? Well,

he lied to me. Well, let's go talk to him. Oh, no. I didn't lie to you. Like,

him. Oh, no. I didn't lie to you. Like,

so it's not that. Whereas, oh, you just put out that tweet. Like, that's clearly against the cultural value. Like, uh,

there's no backing off that. So like you know Facebook famously had move fast and break things which I think >> I thought that was really good by the way >> hall of fame you know that's that's a hall of famer but like that's kind of the you know one of the few that

>> I thought about I thought about that for months like I'm like move fast and break because it's so counterintuitive it's like well you know you want me to break things I'm an engineer I make things I don't break things um but it was just

his way of saying like there is no excuse for not [ __ ] ship like we're going fast >> but they don't have that anymore do they still >> well you know they got bigger and then

you know I think speed wasn't their main thing that they were trying to achieve.

>> I think they literally changed it to like move fastility and stable like with stable infrastructure and reliability.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Somehow lost its edge.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So have you seen anything like that?

Move fast and break things or just a behavior when you walked into the Airbnb office and you noticed something.

>> Yeah. I mean, so and you know, Amazon had this thing where they used to make the desks out of like doors and 2x4s.

Um, and so >> I tried doing that, by the way. It's

it's way cheaper to get a desk.

>> It's way cheaper to get a desk, but like I think the idea back in whatever the late 90s when they did that was like like we're not wasting anyway.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and that kind of thing, which is, you know, those markers are are very very powerful. Like one of my favorite

very powerful. Like one of my favorite ones was actually from the Haitian Revolution when Tusant Lovature basically made a role. He's like, "You can't cheat on your wife." Um, which was

like so absurd cuz here they are.

They're in a colony, you know, a French colony. They're um, you know, the

colony. They're um, you know, the British, the Spanish, the French, they're all raping and pillaging and doing all this stuff. All these armies, and these guys like can't cheat on their walks. But that

walks. But that little cultural idea that said, look, this is about trust. I got to be able to trust you. And like the people have to

trust you. And like the people have to be able to trust you ended up basically really influencing the war. So, one of the things that um was like very

surprising, I think, to people who read about the Haitian Revolution was, you know, here's this slave army taking on these European colonies and the white women in the colony supported Tusant

against like the French. Um, and you go like, well, why' they do that? Because

they didn't rape. They didn't pillage like Tusan. Like, these guys were like

like Tusan. Like, these guys were like half naked soldiers or slaves and they weren't doing any of that. They were

super polite. they were they they behaved in a certain way and the legend is so he was tent lover but slaves didn't have last names so where did

lover come from and so the story is uh Napoleon who really was pissed at him brought his generals together and it's like how in the [ __ ] can you not get

this slave like how can you not defeat this slave and they're like well we get him backed up we get him surrounded and then all of the sudden there's an opening and he became tant lov

to sand the opening. Um, and the opening, uh, a lot of people say was created by these towns people, these, you know, these women who were just like, "No, [ __ ] We're for him. We're

for that army. I don't give a [ __ ] about your army. We're for that army." So,

your army. We're for that army." So,

like the culture can be like super influential.

>> That's a great story. That's really

cool.

>> You mentioned Amazon. Did you see Jeff Bezos got a new startup?

>> Oh, yeah. Did Jeff got a new startup?

All right.

>> Yeah. You didn't see this announcement?

They project Prometheus, they raised an initial seed round of six billion >> to Is that true? They called it a seed round.

>> Well, yeah, it's the first round of funding. Uh, so $6 billion raised and

funding. Uh, so $6 billion raised and they got 100 people and they're building AI for like the the physical world. So,

it's not just robots, but basically like the manufacturing of airplanes and ships and things like that. So, they're

basically saying, how do we use AI?

Yeah. in like sort of advanced manufacturing I think is the I think is the idea but obviously they're little titled details but that's pretty cool.

He's like back in a operational role for the first time which is cool.

>> Yeah. No, I I think that by the way like how great is it that the logistics genius of our time is back at it and going to help us like get back in the

manufacturing game like that. You know,

those things are just incredible to me and I think all of us were a little sad when Jeff was just living his best life just cuz he's is so talented. Um, so

this is very great news.

>> I loved it. I was like, "H, this guy's having fun. He's getting jacked. He's

having fun. He's getting jacked. He's

showing a different uh, you know, a new north star also, which like has has kind of also taken over the tech.

>> And by the way, like what whatever like you know, people always make you into a cartoon when you get to that level. He

is, you know, for sure like a top two or three best CEO in the last 40 years. So

>> you're you're you're a bit surprising to me because I've read all your books. I

know about your background basically like you have like guided the people who have shaped destiny. You've also shaped destiny yourself, but like you're you've done all these amazing things and you're

a shockingly fun hang. Normally I think and like you know about hip-hop and all this stuff. Normally the people who have

this stuff. Normally the people who have outsized results typically have very strange personalities and they're like a little quirky and I'm sure you have your quirks but you just seem shockingly

well balanced for how not normal your successes. Is there anything in your

successes. Is there anything in your day-to-day life that you think that is um would would surprise probably like the average person or are there any tendencies that you have that you

recognize probably aren't at all normal?

>> Well, yeah. You know, I I would say probably the thing the thing that my daughter always says that is unusual about me. Um, and I think it came from

about me. Um, and I think it came from like the beginning of my, you know, like I had um I I am different than the modern people.

Like I was married when I was 22. I had

three kids by the time I was 25. Like I

I kind of had to grow up fast and you know and then I had the company and was trying to raise the kids and the company and you know I didn't have money for nannies or anything. So, like it it was

a lot of that. But what she says to me is she's like, "Dad, like you're like at the top of Maslo's hierarchy. Like

you're very zen with all this."

>> And like I take things for what they are. I I don't like I'm pretty good at

are. I I don't like I'm pretty good at not being unemotional but not letting like my emotional reaction control my behavior.

>> Were you always that way or did you become >> No, no, no, no, no, no. Definitely not.

Like I think it was just all the trauma that like forced me to learn that. What

age did did what what made you calm down? Was it age? Was it kids? Was it

down? Was it age? Was it kids? Was it

success? Was it like, look, I've made it. Everything else is just icing on the

it. Everything else is just icing on the cake. I don't care. Well, I think it was

cake. I don't care. Well, I think it was the combination of the kids and the company, you know, the the the first

company I founded, LoudCloud, which then became Opswware, was so difficult um that I never

I like in life since then like we like we've had difficulties building the firm, whatever, but like they never got like a rise out of me that could compare

to, you know, what I'd already been through. So, it's almost like I I feel

through. So, it's almost like I I feel like it was almost like I know guys, my friend Oliver Stone um was in Vietnam and like you could tell everything about him was

>> I'm not in Vietnam anymore. So much of his life is defined by not being in NAV.

And like I I do feel like I don't want to compare it to war because people always criticize me for my war metaphors, but it it's kind of like that feeling where it's like, okay, I've been through that.

I'm just looking at the world differently now.

>> And I bet it and and like I'm sure you had some sense of like, all right, I've accomplished something like I feel good.

Maybe I'm playing with house money a little bit with with everything else. Um

>> yeah, it's a little house money and then it's a little like all you can do is deal with the thing that it is. You

can't stop it from having happened. It

happens and that now you have to deal with it.

>> Were there any other sort of uh wisdom accelerator? So you have these formative

accelerator? So you have these formative experiences, right? You you got three

experiences, right? You you got three kids and three years or whatever and you're by the time you're 25 and then you're trying to build this startup and everything you face kind of like the back against the wall moments. Were

there any other formative things like you know for example um in my life I went to like a Tony Robbins seminar.

It's like you know I sort of got five years of wisdom in a weekend type of type of deal.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's very good at like dealing with your own psychology.

He's very >> spend the summer doing something or you read a book at the right time or you get the right message at the right time and you have a moment where you just decide like from now on X I guess like I'm just curious was there any if I just think

about like formative moments besides the kids and besides LoudCloud what what else would there have been? Okay. So,

when I was a kid, um I was in this uh relay race and it was like it was a very big deal for me, you know, like it was whatever the trackmate and we came in

second in the relay race. My father uh wasn't at the race. Um but we came in second because and the team that came in first dropped the baton and like didn't pick it up. The guy just ran without the

baton and they gave him first place and they didn't penalize it. And so I was, you know, my father said, "How'd you do in the race?" And I was like, "Well, we came in second, but it wasn't fair." And

I was going to explain to him why. And

he said, "Stop right there." He said, "Life isn't fair."

And that shocked me so much at the time, but it really stuck with me. And it's the single best lesson that I ever got in my

life was life isn't fair. And I see young people wreck themselves so much because they have an expectation that something about life is going to be fair. Like nothing about life is fair.

fair. Like nothing about life is fair.

It's not fair where you're born. It's

not fair what race you are. It's not

fair like what your parents did. It's

not fair like the job interviews aren't fair. Like nothing. The tests aren't

fair. Like nothing. The tests aren't fair. Nothing is fair in life. And so

fair. Nothing is fair in life. And so

the way you succeed is you don't have that expectation. and you just deal with

that expectation. and you just deal with it as it is. And I think that everybody who tries to or who like thinks well

like I wasn't treated fairly or this isn't fair like that is devastating you know like for sure I mean the whole time

uh you know when cloud and the dotcom crashed and half our customers went out of business I never crossed my mind to go this isn't fair. It was just like

okay I have to deal with it. And that is I would say the single best piece of advice and way of looking at life that

you can have is just it is what it is and know do what you can do with it being as it is is very important.

>> You've referenced a lot of really cool stuff. Um the the Haiti story. Um, I've

stuff. Um the the Haiti story. Um, I've

heard you talk about history a lot outside of work, workrelated stuff. What

interests you right now? You know, Sean and I, we like to talk about just like just fun stuff that you're into. I'm

constantly reading about World War II. I

like that. What about you? Is there

anything that you're kind of like being obsessed about?

>> Yes. So, I do have this um I'll give a plug for it. So, I I have this uh charity that I created with my wife called the Paid and Full Foundation. um

which basically, you know, is kind of this idea on a whim, but we give pensions to the old hip-hop guys. So,

you know, they got $100,000 a year and and then we have this award show for them, you know, where we named them Grand Masters and so forth. And you know

that's so the first winners were Rakim and Scarface and then you know we had Grandmaster Cass and Shante and um Kumo D and so forth and then Grand Puba and

and uh Cool Gi Rap and this year you know we added this thing the uh Quincy Jones award um to the guys who got sampled the most and we gave it to

George Clinton and the event was so I'm still thinking about it was so amazing because so George Clinton knows all the words to follow the leader. And so he's

on stage and Quincy John says, "Can you rap follow?" And he's wrapped Follow the

rap follow?" And he's wrapped Follow the Leader and Rock Kim came out and wrapped it with him. So it got George Clinton and Rock Kim. And then Dr. Dre brought a table to the event and he like couldn't

help himself. He goes up on stage just

help himself. He goes up on stage just to say, "Look, I have no career without George Clinton." And it was just so

George Clinton." And it was just so amazing to have like all these guys that were so important that influenced so many people um just being that

appreciative of each other uh was I was like, you know, and it's kind of and you know, hip-hop of course is so competitive and and uh you know, they're always going at each other and so forth,

but to for them to be at that point where they could just go, man, you guys meant so much to me. and and that kind of thing was um it was just very

special.

>> That's so cool. Yeah, that that idea of pensions for for for the OGs is is so great. What did that just come on a whim

great. What did that just come on a whim or you're just at lunch one day and you're like why don't they you know how does that because that oneliner gives you the clarity, right? Gives you the clarity of where to go. So, so I was

listening to the um the H to the ISO Jay-Z song where he says, "I'm overcharging for what they did to the Cold Crush."

Cold Crush." >> And it got me like who was the Cold Crush? And it turns out, right, it's

Crush? And it turns out, right, it's Grandmaster Cass. And Grandmaster Cass

Grandmaster Cass. And Grandmaster Cass wrote um rappers Delight basically. Uh

and they stole it from him. And they

stole it from him so nasty that they didn't change the word. So Big Bank Hankcraft, if I'm the G R A N D Ray Ray Ner,

that's Grandmaster Cass. That's his He's rapping about his name, not Big Bang Hank. Big Bang Hank is the not named

Hank. Big Bang Hank is the not named Grandmaster. Why is he calling himself

Grandmaster. Why is he calling himself Grandmaster? Because he stole his

Grandmaster? Because he stole his [ __ ] rhyme and he never got paid and he never got credit for it. And

everybody in hip-hop knows this. Uh, and

Grandmaster Cass, by the way, like, if you meet him, he's a star. Like, he's

the coolest guy in the room. He dresses

amazing. He's like super articulate. He

can still rap like crazy today. He's 66

years old or 65, something like that.

And I was like, "Wow." Like, "We ought to go back and fix that." And then, you know, uh Ra Kim was like on tour at these little clubs and so forth. I was

like, "That's Ra Kim. Like, how are people treating him like that?" So, that was the idea. I was like, "We ought to just do it." Um, you know, and like getting it set up with the IRS and all that stuff is like extremely

complicated. Um, but yeah, it's been

complicated. Um, but yeah, it's been it's been really really I would say amazing and like just like an unbelievable epilogue. So Cass at the

unbelievable epilogue. So Cass at the last one um tells me he's like, "Ben, I bought a house." I was like, "Oh, that's amazing, Cass. You've got a house." He's

amazing, Cass. You've got a house." He's

like, "No, Ben, it's the first time in my life I haven't lived in the projects." Like Grandmaster Cass, the

projects." Like Grandmaster Cass, the guy who wrote the first great hip-hop song, has never not lived in the projects. Like how crazy is that? And

projects. Like how crazy is that? And

you know, now here he is with the house in Pennsylvania and he's got berries in his backyard and the whole thing. Yeah,

>> he's got berries in his backyard.

>> It is pretty nuts. The people who are like invent the [ __ ] don't get it. Like

for example, Sean and I love UFC and like we see like the early UFC events and these guys are bad and they're getting $2,000 to show up and they still come to like the Legends Awards and they

still are talking and you're like, "Damn, dude. This guy probably is

"Damn, dude. This guy probably is selling insurance or something like that." Like he like, you know, he

that." Like he like, you know, he probably got made $15,000 that year.

>> No doubt. No doubt. Yeah.

>> This happens in the NBA, too. This is

why like the culture gets kind of messed up because the old heads keep criticizing all the new players.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's like, "Oh, why are you doing that?" And it's like they make too much

that?" And it's like they make too much more money.

>> They're making $70 million a year and that guy didn't make seven in his whole career and he's like I'm better than that guy and that guy, you know, so that this resentment and then they get on and then they're the the guys doing the halftime shifts and it's bad for bad for

the product, right? Like it's bad for the lineage, right? Because

>> everything is a creative lineage like on top of what was before, right? So you

it's really cool to kind of almost like economically fix the you know try to improve that ecosystem because it's like the whole thing >> like you know it's funny it's um it's

also kind of this thought I have about capitalism which is capitalism is is definitely the system that lifted the world out of poverty and like kind of created the modern world we live in.

Yeah, you know, it's incredibly powerful, but right over time it does get um corrupted and so forth. And even

if it wasn't corrupted, it's not perfect. And like certain things happen

perfect. And like certain things happen like, oh, you create a musical art form and are the guys who actually made it happen and it becomes the biggest musical art form in the world and you

never got pegged. Like capitalism

shouldn't work like that, but it's just kind of the way it works, right? Like,

and it's nobody's fault. And so like if you can go back and say, "Well, we'll just correct those things."

>> I think that I think you are so cool.

Like you're on one hand, you're like a pretty like hard-hitting capitalist where you're getting after it and you're talking about making really tough decisions of having to fire people, whatever. But then you're also like but

whatever. But then you're also like but also we can we could do good by doing all this other stuff. And I think that like particularly in tech, I don't think that people's interests are are particularly that wide.

>> Yeah. Well, I think people get very into tech. Yeah. Like tech is so deep and

tech. Yeah. Like tech is so deep and vast that like people can get stuck in it. For sure. Yeah.

it. For sure. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, Ben, we thank you for coming on, man. I know uh you uh you got a lot

on, man. I know uh you uh you got a lot of things going on, but this was this is a lot of fun. I appreciate it.

>> Yeah. No, it was a good time. Thanks,

guys. Definitely. All right. Appreciate

you. That's it. That's the pod.