Binance Founder CZ on Memecoins, Aster, BNB vs SOL and More | TG Podcast

Yes, sir. How are you, dude? Welcome to

the stream.

>> I'm I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for

having me here.

>> Of course. I'm gonna be honest, man. I I

uh I wasn't sure if you were gonna come.

When I made that first tweet, I thought I was going to be tweeting for weeks. Um

Instant Reply. It was awesome.

>> But yeah, I I just saw it. Well,

somebody sent it to me and said, "Why not?" Yeah,

not?" Yeah, >> I [ __ ] love it. Um I appreciate you for coming on, dude. I feel like right now, and look, we have a lot to talk about. We're going to get into to

about. We're going to get into to everything. There's a lot going on. I

everything. There's a lot going on. I

feel like right now is like the most active you've ever been on Twitter. Like

you're you're firing right now.

>> Um no, I was way more active before uh when I was Yeah, but now just in the last week there was just a lot of stuff happening, >> but when I was running Binance I was on Twitter way more. Uh now I travel a lot

and then you know when I travel I just >> Yeah. But the last couple of days there

>> Yeah. But the last couple of days there was just so much stuff happening. So

yeah.

>> Um so there is a lot happening right now. We'll get into all of it. And

now. We'll get into all of it. And

>> I mean, dude, this morning I woke up and Twitter was going absolutely crazy over this Jeff tweet.

>> Um, what's what's the lore on that?

Twitter was going nuts. You you you quote tweeted, I think it was from 2018, one of the cohorts, Jeff from Hyperlid was in it and yeah, Twitter went crazy today. Like, what's the lore on that?

today. Like, what's the lore on that?

>> Um, I don't know him and I don't think I ever met him in person. So look, I'm not very I wasn't very involved uh with all the cohorts in the Binance season one

labs incubation projects. So I don't think I met I don't think I I don't think I ever met him in person, at least not that I know of. And it was only early this year Ella told me look he was

uh he was the season one cohort and said do I want to chat with him? Like yeah

let's chat chat with him and find out like you know what's going on. Um I

don't think he was ready for invest. We

were not trying to we didn't discuss a deal. So there was no deal that was ever

deal. So there was no deal that was ever proposed. Um like they were already

proposed. Um like they were already pretty big. Um so they kind of we like

pretty big. Um so they kind of we like to invest in early projects like we like to get get in early. Uh that's why we do incubations, we do easy residencies,

etc. We like to help them grow. Um so I think was more of a casual chat.

Unfortunately, I overslept because I set my alarm clock wrong. So, um, no. And

then we didn't, I think because there wasn't a specific purpose to the meeting, so we didn't really bother rescheduling it. So, that was that

rescheduling it. So, that was that really. Yeah.

really. Yeah.

>> Hey, be honest. Be honest. Do you do you regret missing that meeting?

>> No, no, no. It wasn't I at the time it was like only it was only a few months ago. So, it wasn't like super early. So,

ago. So, it wasn't like super early. So,

it was like a couple months ago.

>> Um, they already, you know, valuable, extremely valuable, extremely successful. I don't think was the right

successful. I don't think was the right target for us to we don't we don't make huge acquisitions, right? So we don't we don't make huge uh uh um um well I think

the largest one we've done to date is probably coin market cap that was a couple hundred million dollars.

>> Wow.

>> So I think they were already beyond that. So u um yeah so there wasn't an

that. So u um yeah so there wasn't an agenda and uh so that's why we probably didn't really bother to reschedule it.

He's busy. I'm busy. Um so that that was that. It wasn't like, oh, we're trying

that. It wasn't like, oh, we're trying to get a deal done.

>> Uh, it wasn't like that. Yeah.

>> Okay. I mean, you know, I had to ask Twitter Twitter was going crazy this morning. Um,

morning. Um, >> but I I think to start like, >> you know, I kind of want to ask you, CZ, I want to know like what your goals are from this point. And the reason I asked

it to sort of set it up is I mean look you quote tweeted that I think it was Forbes that was estimating your net worth and you said it was a little bit high but objectively you're you're one of the richer people in the world. I I

don't think anyone can argue you're one of the titans ever to come through crypto and I mean you're kind of fresh out of jail and you're on the timeline right now. You're on Twitter and you're

right now. You're on Twitter and you're going really hard. like I'm I'm just curious what your goals are and like why you are sort of doing what you're doing

right now.

>> Sure. So um I think uh yeah so uh before I was like you know um I was never that money driven like Binance the Bance success happened so quickly that you

know uh it didn't allow me the step stepwise increases in sort of learning about wealth enjoying it etc. And we I was busy the whole time like I was very

busy like very like uh uh it grew so quickly that we were on firefighting all the time uh for the first couple years and then we were dealing with the US government for a few years and it was it

was stressful. Um and then look um so

was stressful. Um and then look um so for me it was like um uh I come from a fairly humble uh beginnings and even so uh so I I was never used to a luxury

life and I was fine. I'm very

functional. I like I like to everything that functions. I like I don't care

that functions. I like I don't care about, you know, I work like cheap clothes, but they work. They're

comfortable. Um I sit on normal chairs.

I I don't I don't need a super expensive chair. I don't need a super expensive

chair. I don't need a super expensive watch. Like, you know, I just don't have

watch. Like, you know, I just don't have those things, right? So, um I I I wore a Garmin watch, which is like a I don't know, $300 watch. This it works. Um so

um and then also like because Binance went from like zero to like the worst crypto world's largest crypto exchange in five months and then in in about from seven months for screw me on that cover

right and was like my friends like oh you must be really rich I'm like I don't feel rich like I got I got zero I didn't have a lot more money so I didn't go through the steps people go through the steps you know they become $10 million

now they start buying uh uh watches and cars and then become $100 million they buy big fancy houses um $200 million they buy yachts um and then you know that I didn't go through that

progression it just went from zero to like cover forbes I'm like what and I didn't I didn't feel it so um um nothing's changed for me I never I didn't cash out um I don't have more

money in my in my bank um I don't have more in my wallet um so I get a little bit more now in my wallet than before right so I but those are not like billions of dollars of like know billions and billions of dollars like

like they talk about so I didn't develop that and then in terms of uh what I want to do so uh I'm not poor um and I think look I don't I I don't need to prove

that so I'm okay with a onetrick pony being a one trick pony so I don't need to be a serial successful entrepreneur like I did I think I did well um you know I made some mistakes um but you

know I didn't make serious mistakes like there's no fraud no users got hurt um so I protected all our users all the BMBB investors all my share all the team members who have shares in the company

Um I think the team did well. Um I

protected the platform that we built. Um

I took responsibility for the things for my mistakes and you know I I took it head on right. So and then when I was in jail uh I was like you know thinking about what what's important in jail

actually really clears your mind. Um you

figure out number one health is really important. If you're not healthy then

important. If you're not healthy then nothing matters. And in jail you don't

nothing matters. And in jail you don't have access you don't have very good access to to doctors unless you're dying on the floor. Like they don't they don't they don't care right? So you got to eat healthy, sleep well and luckily you got

nothing else to do. So it's like no it's actually quite good and then it's like okay you what do you miss the most?

everything's taken away from you, right?

So, you miss your family, you you miss the people. So, it's the human

the people. So, it's the human connection that you miss. And then um after that, everything else is secondary. Uh I I miss the food, I miss

secondary. Uh I I miss the food, I miss the comfortable bed, but you you can deal with that. Those are secondary. And

so, after came like even before I went to jail, I like it was very clear that I couldn't do Binance anymore or I can I cannot run Binance anymore. I'm still a shareholder. Um so, um and then I

shareholder. Um so, um and then I thought, okay, so what would make what would be exciting for me? what what

would make me happy? So, I thought about this long and hard. I think animals are genetically selected or engineered to want to help the same species. So, uh so when you can take care of yourself,

helping others make yourself feel better, right? So, if like if if you're

better, right? So, if like if if you're hung if I'm hungry and I got to take care of that. If I'm cold, then I I need a place to to to shelter. But once I take care of myself, helping others make

me feel good. And then I was thinking about okay how can I what's the what's the best way to help others right so at that point look I was already I already pleaded guilty to a US federal crime uh

so I don't care about reputation like my reputation is already like kind of damaged in a lot of in a lot of senses um but at the same time I do care about my credibility I didn't hurt any users

right so I didn't hurt anybody um so and then um uh do I care more about power I already stepped down from Binance right and so uh fame and power they care about

more money like I didn't spend that much money uh I haven't spent like even a proportion even a small portion of the money that they claim I have um so I'm like okay if those three things doesn't

matter what matters to me what matters to me I think is when I'm old I want to know that I helped I did my best to help others right so as long as I'm happy with myself when I'm old then I did my

best so that's kind of what I what I care about and then with that it's like okay what's the maximum impact positive impact that I could do, right? So, if my ability is high, I'll do more. If my

ability is low, I'll do less. So, I

thought, you know, education is a really good one uh because that can instantly scale if we build a digital platform that can educate everybody everybody.

And so, we continue to work on that. And

then after like I got out of jail and took a took me a few months like know that experience um stays with you for like that it took me a few months to get more active on Twitter uh to get to talk

to people normally. So I stayed at home with family etc. After a few months I was okay well uh I can still run the investment part of know our portfolio right. So that's not has nothing to do

right. So that's not has nothing to do with binance.com the the exchange.

>> I said okay I I'll run no I will get involved in uh in Binance Lab. So we

said okay just to make the distinction clear we're rebranded.

>> Um and then um so and then like no I'm very committed to the B&B chain ecosystem obviously. So uh again that

ecosystem obviously. So uh again that has nothing to do with a centralized exchange. So I get there know we invest

exchange. So I get there know we invest we help other funders. So for me now I'm just very happy to help other funders to be successful. So I'm happy to be a

be successful. So I'm happy to be a coach cheerleader however you call it.

Uh so that's kind of what I do. Yeah. So

on the back end of that, given the position you sit in and your history in crypto, do you feel like a sense of

responsibility for how the industry plays out from here?

>> No, I don't feel so first of all, I don't feel that grand.

I don't think anyone can feel responsible, single-handedly responsible for crypto. The industry, I think the

for crypto. The industry, I think the industry will be fine. uh the industry will go through you know u u u winters uh it will go through cycles but each

cycle is higher than than the next one so I think the the industry will be fine um I'm not that great I want to contribute u so um and if I look at what I know where I have influenced what what

I can contribute to is in crypto right so um uh so this is where I spend quite a lot of my time today talking with people my network is also here and everyone wants to talk to me about about

crypto the cry the cryto guys come to me and the AI guys well a few of them come to me but they don't come to me in the same way uh the biotech guys we invest you know we have to go to them because you know and I also don't know that

space that well >> so um uh so in crypto I don't I would like to continue I definitely will continue to make my contributions but I don't think I'm responsible for crypto

or like you know that's that's just too that's too much um so I think there are many many strong players people who are contributing to crypto so um yeah but I'm just part of Yeah, >> I didn't mean to put the future of the

industry on your shoulders there, but I was curious, you know, before we get into some of the more specific meme per deck stuff. I I want to ask you like I

deck stuff. I I want to ask you like I think crypto Twitter specifically the onchain sort of trenches side if you will. It's in a little bit of a weird

will. It's in a little bit of a weird place, right? Like you look at, you

place, right? Like you look at, you know, Bitcoin just made a new ATTH. It's

a couple percent off today and you scroll the timeline on crypto Twitter and it's kind of in shambles. And if you zoom out, um, a lot like a lot's happened with crypto. We have the the

Trump admin, which has really adopted crypto. We have ETFs on, you know, on

crypto. We have ETFs on, you know, on Bitcoin, on Soul, on ETH, on every major crypto asset. Every Tradfi institution

crypto asset. Every Tradfi institution in the world is adopting stable coins.

And so from the outside looking in, crypto, I mean, it's it's one, right?

Mainstream adoption has happened. It's

infiltrated every vertical of of the world. And then onchain I think is sort

world. And then onchain I think is sort of in a little bit of a weird spot where the memecoin thing really happened. It's

still happening um but not at the same scale that it was and I think there's just a little bit of a stalemate where people are unsure on the retail onchain side what's next and what to believe in.

Like what is sort of your optimistic northstar vision for where onchain can go from here?

>> Yeah. So yeah I think I agree with you.

But but I think the problems you described are there's some some issues but they're largely good because that means the industry is getting bigger. So

before you know in 2013 14 everyone was in bitcoin it's called the bitcoin industry back then right it's not really crypto or blockchain industry it's just bitcoin um and then 2017 I think know

ethereum was there and then there was some there was some reasonable alcoins and ethereum has like the ERC20 token thing and then everyone's doing ICOs and there's way more projects and that's

that caused the boom 2021 there was DeFi NFTts etc. DeFi state NFTs become much smaller. They're still there uh but much much smaller from the from

the top. Um and uh this time around now

the top. Um and uh this time around now as you said we're seeing a lot more.

We're seeing ETFs, we're seeing well we've seen memes, we've seen stable coins, we're seeing RWAS. Uh so um there's quite we're seeing DATs so that there's a lot more now which is good. I

think know the industry is getting bigger. But I I also see that yeah as

bigger. But I I also see that yeah as you said um the industries number one is more divided both like you know in terms of sectors of industries uh different

cohorts of players um and different regions uh so that's there's a bit more division but I think that's that's a that's a that's a matter of size right

so the industry is bigger um and u uh I think uh there are more because there more institutional play uh so now the government's coming institutions are coming Wall Street's coming in. Um,

national reserves are coming in. There's

more different types of players and many of those those players are what we call traditional players. So, um, there's now

traditional players. So, um, there's now a mix of like, you know, real like ultra libertarian OGs, uh, versus somewhere in the middle. That's kind of where where I

the middle. That's kind of where where I fit. And then there's sort of newcomers

fit. And then there's sort of newcomers into the space. So, there's different opinions. And then there's the meme meme

opinions. And then there's the meme meme traders versus utility coin traders versus Bitcoin maxis uh, versus other people, etc., etc. So then we see more

groups but look it's a decentralized ecosystem right so anybody we should welcome everyone to participate and there should be a lot of diversity there should be debates there should be some you know some friction somewhere and

there should be competition there should be collaboration as well um so for me I'm always very used to this sort of new areas chaos etc so I I'm I'm open to

very open spaces uh so open very open industries so I think all of this is good we should support everyone We should we should try to help everyone.

Yeah.

>> Uh I like I like to take um it is >> weird to see like you know Bitcoin make a new ATTH and you scroll the Twitter timeline and every on 1% dump and everybody's in shambles. It's like what

the you know what the [ __ ] going on?

Um but that's just where we are in 2025.

I I guess speaking of Bitcoin you went on Farooq's podcast I think fiveish months ago now. Shout out to Faroo. I

think he did a great job. and you gave a Bitcoin price prediction of 500K to a million dollars. Can we get an update on

million dollars. Can we get an update on that? H how do you feel about it now?

that? H how do you feel about it now?

>> I still feel I still feel reasonable about it now. So, um I think you know usually well if you look at his number one is okay I got to be very careful

with with price predictions. U number

one is I don't know where the where it's going to go. Like to to be very frank nobody knows. Nobody I talked to

nobody knows. Nobody I talked to actually really knows. um price

predictions are just opinions and I think but if you look at historically the fi four year cycles right so um every four years usually around October to December that's that's where where

where where where the where the where the peak is so um you know I'm still I and based on what everything we're seeing as you said Bitcoin is near its alltime high uh it drops like one to

two% and everyone panics but you know it's it's for for for the guys like who've been in the industry for like 11 years. Bitcoin used to drop 50% a day

years. Bitcoin used to drop 50% a day and then it'll go up 50% the next day.

So like know this is nothing. This is

very stable. Um so uh it's all different perspective. So I'm still very positive

perspective. So I'm still very positive on the on Bitcoin on the overall crypto industry. Um and yeah, so I'm I'm still

industry. Um and yeah, so I'm I'm still pretty positive. I um so getting a

pretty positive. I um so getting a little bit more niche and talking about some of the B&B stuff is you know I think there's a lot of people that watch this stream that really first came into

crypto on the back end of the 2024 Salana memecoin Axiom AI season and over the last month is probably their

first experience really interacting with with B&B and my question for you was to sort of set up the stage and frame it a little bit is how do you see in 2024

five um B&B chain and where it sits relative to everything else in crypto, other chains, other info, like what role is it sort of playing right now?

>> Um yeah, I think um I think today if you look at the blockchain layer one blockchain ecosystem, right? So you have the you have Bitcoin which is like the the the reserve uh the the the biggest

chain. Um but Bitcoin doesn't have the

chain. Um but Bitcoin doesn't have the programmability into it, right? It

doesn't have smart contracts. Um so then it's and also uh both Bitcoin and Ethereum are kind of saturated so that's why the fees are generally high um there

um they're saturated so like know the the performance the bottlenecks and then um um and then um uh there's a BNB chain

has been there for for a while BNB chain is actually three different tech technical blockchains right so there's a green field which is a storage chain there's B binance a B&B smart chain

which is a EV VM smart contract chain and there's OPBNB which is a layer two.

Uh and there's actually a couple more being built uh different different technology architectures. Um so uh I

technology architectures. Um so uh I view B&B chain as sort of the um uh utility uh centric and also trading liquidity centric blockchain uh because

trading liquidity that's that's kind of our background right so that's kind of where we have all our users that's the community um and I think Solana is no is very strong it's like but Solana is very

much a memes co uh blockchain at this point right so they can evolve but right now they had a lot of meme traders um but memes on Salona in the recent little

while has been quieter and recently uh just because B&B chain has more activity going on and quite a lot of those guys came over uh in the last week or so. So

and that's that's great. um B&B chain I think the based on the community feedback I think the B&B chain ecosystem even for the memecoin community is a little bit different because of the utility nature of the B&B chain

community um they tend to be more holders so they don't like know go up and down the next day but in the last yesterday there was a big there was a big um market reaction to some to some FUD

>> uh which caused a lot of pain um so but you know different chance a little bit different I think but um I think there's you know there's quite a few other blockchains that are interesting too. uh

you know that's based in the US um that's building um that's you know other blockchains that are slightly smaller in in terms of activity but they have they also have interesting technologies uh

like the move blockchains um other blockchains no so I think that's quite a lot I think we're still early in the industry so we just got to continue to build yeah >> you know I don't want to focus too much

on other chains or other ecosystems but I think you know objectively Salana and its onchain activity is one of the primary stories stories of this cycle

that we're currently in. Do you think BMBB can beat and sustain and basically win that onchain and memecoin activity

that Salana has largely dominated up until probably this last month?

>> Uh well number one is u I think it's definitely anything's possible.

It's absolutely possible. Well, I think in the last couple days or weeks, um, we have seen that, you know, the meme there was more meme activities on on B&B chain than Salona, but like no, there's I think I'm just reading news. I'm I'm

actually not in the trenches as they call it. Um, I think there's like five

call it. Um, I think there's like five uh B&B uh blockchain memes that reached like 100 million or 500 million or however they call it whereas they they were not on Salona, right? So, I think

Salon is a bit quieter in the last just in the last couple weeks. Um and I but at the same time I don't view blockchains as competing that way. Uh I

think Salona every chain has a different history. So um every chain has a

history. So um every chain has a different um my understanding of Salona is look uh they started know a couple years ago with FTX and FTX went down um

Salona guys got really hurt um and they did a phenomenal comeback right but in the comeback like they no longer have a exchange kind of in the ecosystem um and

al that was also during the Biden Gary Gensler administration um every utility coin is being sued for security not it's a security right so BNB plus every other

um other other other tokens are being sued. So if you launch a real project

sued. So if you launch a real project with a utility token then you you're going to get a lawsuit from SEC the previous SEC. So like memecoins we just

previous SEC. So like memecoins we just clear declared there's no value. Well

there's no utility so just just for fun.

So now just and then on SA basically I think at that point they they didn't give a they didn't give a [ __ ] right.

It's like no we're just going to pump and dump. So there's a platform called

and dump. So there's a platform called pump. I think and and at that time um

pump. I think and and at that time um Binance myself uh we were dealing with SEC lawsuits. Uh I think if there was a

SEC lawsuits. Uh I think if there was a platform in our ecosystem called pump um I would get a lot of questions being asked like you know even though that would have nothing to do with me. So um

so we couldn't we didn't have that narrative right? So we just kind of

narrative right? So we just kind of ignore that narrative and that's why you know most of memes didn't happen on many blockchains. Um so uh I think there's a

blockchains. Um so uh I think there's a little bit of history there but you know Solona is a fast blockchain. Um it's uh it's it's active uh it's it's got a good support. So I think it's a good

support. So I think it's a good blockchain. Um but at right now um we

blockchain. Um but at right now um we are no I spend way more time in B&B chain right? So uh uh no our portfolio

chain right? So uh uh no our portfolio projects no cost wallet supports Salona and it supports B&B chain. So it's most our portfolio companies are very open but I spend more time in the B&B chain

ecosystem obviously and then um so we invest we know we help funders build and right now the the activities are pretty lively um there are issues you know the

the issues every day but um uh but I think the blockchain ecosystem is very lively the B&B chain ecosystem is very lively right now yeah >> so it is and um I mean I hear your comments on puppet salana what's

happening I mean the infra of what's happening on B B&B looks very similar right now with the there's sort of a launchpad standard same type of thing is is happening on B&B now my question for

you as we get into the memecoin stuff is you are on record quite a few times previously 2024 sort of denouncing memecoins I think you talked about it on

Froak's podcast a little bit that you're not a huge fan of memecoins and there's a couple tweets I don't I don't have them I had them saved whatever I don't have to read them out loud um publicly

you've sort been anti-mecoin before and now as of recent it seems you're pretty excited about them like yeah I'm curious what changed and like why are you

excited about about memecoins now?

>> Okay, so let me make a couple minor correction. I wasn't anti-mecoin. I was

correction. I wasn't anti-mecoin. I was

never anti it. I was just like I'm not that hot into it, right? So uh I'm not a memecoin trader like well that's just a fact. And like but I'm also not a um NFT

fact. And like but I'm also not a um NFT trader, right? Right. I never bought

trader, right? Right. I never bought NFTs.

>> Um and also I buy very few altcoins like even though I support all of them, you know, uh but I have Bitcoin, I have B&B and that's pretty much it.

>> Um I don't really know invest in other block, but I support all the blockchain ecosystems, right? Binance supports

ecosystems, right? Binance supports multiple many many blockchains. Um I

work very closely with many blockchain developers, etc., etc. on different blockchains. So just because I don't I

blockchains. So just because I don't I don't buy meme coins. I I don't buy art.

I don't buy, you know, I don't buy paintings. I don't I I don't buy music.

paintings. I don't I I don't buy music.

That's just not my thing. I'm like a very geek kind of tech function kind of guy. I have a um I don't buy fancy

guy. I have a um I don't buy fancy watches. I have like digital watches

watches. I have like digital watches that works. Um I play sports and that's

that works. Um I play sports and that's I'm in my little zone. So just because I'm not so much into art. So NFTTS,

memes are I never really understand them. I just don't get them that much.

them. I just don't get them that much.

I'm not anti them. Uh I I'm just not deep in the trenches there. So but I do want to support any ecosystem that's developing right. So if the memes are

developing right. So if the memes are what the users are all after and is successful uh in other blockchains etc. uh we would fund uh projects in in those

spaces right we would invest in projects that build those platforms. Uh so we you know we we would we would I would help other we get I get funders coming to me and say look I'm building a launch

launchpad u project. I'm building a new stable coin. I'm building a new meme

stable coin. I'm building a new meme meme trading platform. I'm building a per deck. I get all of that. I I get

per deck. I get all of that. I I get like, you know, 10 20 of those coming to me every single day. So, I just like if I like a team, I I help them >> and then uh so yeah. So, that's kind of

how I operate. So, I'm never anti-mecoin, but I think now if the meme coins are coming to B&B chain, we should walk them. We should welcome them and we

walk them. We should welcome them and we should make our infrastructure uh help them, support them because now the memecoins have actually a very interesting different um needs for the

blockchain. They need like fast updates.

blockchain. They need like fast updates.

Um they need um uh like very real time uh information uh what's going etc. So it's actually a very demanding infrastruct for infrastructure wise. Uh

so from my perspective is okay let's let's help all the builders build the infrastructure uh to support this ecosystem. Till today I've don't think

ecosystem. Till today I've don't think I've intentionally bought a single well personally bought a single meme trying to hold it etc. I try to buy a couple memes just to learn about it. It's not

like I'm buying for investment right. So

uh I'm not trying to like in the trenches try to 10x overnight like those are not things I do.

>> So one thing that's definitely happened is I think the infra and the tech on BNB specifically for the memecoin stuff has really caught up and I mean it's on par.

I I've traded a lot of the stuff. It's

it's it's gotten really good. Um, if

this trend does continue, like how much bigger do you think the onchain meme activity on B&B can get? Because I mean, yeah, the last month I think has been a little bit surprising to everybody.

>> Yeah. So, I think well, to be honest, it's very hard to predict um because I think um memes are very fast like you know something comes up, everyone got into it. Um there's a few memes that's

into it. Um there's a few memes that's there's a few memes that lasts over time, right? you know, the uh Dodge is

time, right? you know, the uh Dodge is probably one and then um uh but like but there's millions new ones created every day. Again, I'm not in I'm not in what

day. Again, I'm not in I'm not in what they call the literally trenches like know trying to uh look for meme coins, etc. So, I'm not the best person to predict the market size and where how

it's growing. Um I just want to I just

it's growing. Um I just want to I just want to help builders build the infrastructure to support those type of activity. So, uh um I don't I'm like

activity. So, uh um I don't I'm like also many people many people confused.

I'm I was ne I'm I was never a very good trader. So I don't trade. I don't buy

trader. So I don't trade. I don't buy and sell Bitcoin like you know uh I don't try to time the market. I just buy and hold. But I'm I'm a uh I come from a

and hold. But I'm I'm a uh I come from a background where I'm a builder. I want

to build tools for other people to do things. I want to make those tools good.

things. I want to make those tools good.

So I want to help other builders now to build those tools. Uh so I I see younger people they're they're more energy, more stamina and more technical than I am now. So I want to help them uh to do

now. So I want to help them uh to do that. Yeah. What um I think one thing

that. Yeah. What um I think one thing that's happened that's a little bit different on B&B is there's been this crazy rise of of the Chinese tickers and I think a lot of people in the west are

like trying to figure out you know what the [ __ ] is going on like what are your thoughts on that?

>> I think that's very coincidental. So

again from my perspective on what on what happened how how that came to be is very um it's very coincidental. Um so uh I think number one is uh you know I for

a while I was you know early this year in February I was playing I was trying my first time to drive by buy a meme point on on chain I was using trust wallet I thought like how hard can you

be like I've used trust wallet before right so it's a pretty simple interface I know how private keys work so no I use my trust wallet to buy and um um and it

was a joke really because everyone was laughing with at me because I didn't know what what I was doing. I got me attacked and I was not successful etc. But I was playing it wasn't know it wasn't any meaningful money. I was like

know $50 or $100 or something like that.

And then uh uh so I was learning through that process and somehow uh everything I do people pay a lot of attention to. So

like and it got it got to the point where like you know uh they they asked me about the dog my pet I have a dog and then the dog thing you know there was a meme about that and then later on basically everything I tweet anything

like any picture any icon any kind of thing I I tweet they turn into a meme it for a for a period of time I I became very careful with what not to tweet I'm not but then it become awkward I can't

do anything right like I I like I want to tweet freely and at some point I said like screw that I'm just going tweet freely. If people want to do memes, they

freely. If people want to do memes, they do memes. And then somehow that became

do memes. And then somehow that became the culture of the memecoin space on the B&B chain. And quite a lot of that is

B&B chain. And quite a lot of that is Chinese guys. And recently uh Hi, the

Chinese guys. And recently uh Hi, the co-founder in uh in Binance.

>> Uh she uh she she's like she's she's obviously much stronger in Chinese. She

writes poems and stuff like she's she's much more literal, artistic, etc. J responded to a tweet saying like you know the Binance this is the Binance life uh etc. And then people like made

that into into into a tweet and then um so this is like basically early this week I think and then I think uh Tuesday or when it was like the middle autumn festival. I first post a tweet I said

festival. I first post a tweet I said like well happy middle autumn festival and then I deleted that. I said reposted said uh happy middle autumn festival post your best memes. I thought it would just be fun to like, you know, get

>> get the community going. But of course, mid-autumn festival is a Chinese festival. So all the memes are Chinese,

festival. So all the memes are Chinese, moon, uh, moon cakes, moon, etc. >> And then um, and then the tickers are like they made tickers in Chinese,

right? So um, uh, you know, is like, you

right? So um, uh, you know, is like, you know, is like a play on my name actually is it changed my name to a female name.

Um, and then it was quite creative in the but you only you only understand that meme if you were Chinese and so like that became more popular. I had a couple interactions with it and the

Chinese community kind of became more active. Um, and then those were shooting

active. Um, and then those were shooting through the roof. Uh, so uh, so then that's kind of I think what attracted quite a lot of the Salona communities over. Um, so uh, that just became and

over. Um, so uh, that just became and then people start we have westerners start posting I'm on dualingo learning Chinese.

It's like it wasn't planned. It was just like you slowly evolved into that. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'm like locked in on Google Translate like trying to figure out what the [ __ ] going on. Um

>> Yeah.

>> So on the back end of all this craziness with the memes there there was this controversial launch the other night of meme rush and a lot of people had a lot of thoughts on it. There was sort of

this u mechanism gated where you could only buy under the $1 million market cap bond if you were KYC on Binance. So

people in the US can't really participate until a little bit later. I

don't know how much you can say on it, but I I guess to ask like what is sort of the goal with launching something like Meme Rush?

>> I was not involved in Meme Rush at all.

Um so I found out yet uh that was yesterday. Yeah, I found out yesterday

yesterday. Yeah, I found out yesterday when the community was like you know uh kind of in turmoil. I was like what is this thing? Uh actually even until like

this thing? Uh actually even until like I didn't even know it was called Meme Rush. Um so um and I think and then when

Rush. Um so um and I think and then when I saw it I was like okay this this doesn't there there's some issues with that right so it's it's um so um first

of all when I saw it I wasn't sure I just like the community I wasn't sure what it was u because I I don't spend that much time on binance.com I'm not supposed to run it I can still get information but I don't really ask most

of the time I just I just leave them be right so um I didn't know that you was launching I after you launched I didn't know what it was um and then the community was like having a reaction um

and and I was like okay so um I think the there was misunderstanding about what it is right so it wasn't like well uh the community understood is that now

going going forward bance.com will only list tokens from that channel which is not true right which wasn't the intention um and but the that but that somehow turned to be negative for every

other existing memecoin out there that that the community understood so I was like I was as confused as everybody else. I was like, "Okay, what is this

else. I was like, "Okay, what is this thing?" So, I started asking questions

thing?" So, I started asking questions about, you know, what is this, etc. And then I understood that it's actually a misconception. But by the time I

misconception. But by the time I understood it, I flew to Bahrain yesterday morning, very early morning.

And on the way, just after I landed, I kind of saw it and I had to attend a few meetings. I met with a central bank

meetings. I met with a central bank governor there. Uh I I did a panel talk

governor there. Uh I I did a panel talk on stage. So, I was like in meetings all

on stage. So, I was like in meetings all day and why this happening >> and everyone's blaming me for like selling memecoins. I like I was like

selling memecoins. I like I was like what's going on? Um so and then by the time I understood it and by the time they clarified everything uh and um the market is already like you know really

really tanked. Um but I think this is

really tanked. Um but I think this is one of the risks for memecoins right so they don't have price support uh and they've been going up so quickly in the in the in in the in the past few days.

So uh um so uh and you know I I saw I was really shocked. Um and then I think you know um but yeah so that that's really just what happened. Yeah. So,

thank you for that. And I I basically want to ask you one more sort of memecoin adjacent question and we could talk about some per stuff is, you know, I was originally going to ask you what does B&B have to do differently than

Salana? And as I was just reading some

Salana? And as I was just reading some some tweets and thinking about this question, um, shout out to Frank Dgods.

He has this really interesting thesis. I

think he's the first person to tweet it that B&B has this unique angle having Binance where it basically has this like vertical stack where you could basically

a meme launches on form meme it gets listed on Aster it can then get Binance Alpha and then if it's successful enough it can get Binance spot and I don't really think any other like Salana can't

really do that base can't like no other ecosystem could really do that was that that sort of vertical stack was that intentional And have you thought about

that being an edge over why onchain activity could get crazier on BMP?

>> Uh no well number one it's definitely not intentional. Um I think for the last

not intentional. Um I think for the last six the first six and a half the first seven and a half years I was busy with a centralized exchange. I didn't plan any

centralized exchange. I didn't plan any B&B chain stuff that just happened organically. And then, you know, I came

organically. And then, you know, I came out of jail and then um uh uh after a few months I was like, okay, I'm gonna I'm not gonna spend time on the centralized exchange. So, where am I

centralized exchange. So, where am I going to spend time? So, I'm looking at the decentralized stuff. Um I think the uh um the Binance uh.com exchange, the biggest centralized exchange angle is

definitely an advantage. Um but it's not exclusive. Uh Binance Binance.com still

exclusive. Uh Binance Binance.com still lists tokens from every blockchain, uh from even meme coins from every blockchain. But the community does

blockchain. But the community does perceive there's like closeness. It is

it's true. It's like it's one it's one community that has quite a number of u uh I would say common uh align much more closely aligned in terms of you know most of them probably hold BNB

>> to some extent most of them probably collaborate a bit more uh etc. So there's definitely some advantage uh there um just just by the by it's it's one it's it's a closer comm community

it's a closer community but they're not uh exclusive nothing nothing in nothing uh Binance is not exclusively listing only B&B chain projects or tokens um is

not um trust wallets in fact I think the Salona uh blockchain is blockchain ecosystem probably more exclusive if you think think about it uh phantom does only supports uh Salona it doesn't

support uh it doesn't support BNB chain so uh trust wallet supports BNB chain Salona etc uh u many other blockchains right so um our ecosystem is actually

more open in my opinion um so this is why when the salona guys want to bridge into BNB chain they have to use trust wallet they can't use phantom um radian

only operates on a salona I believe um so um other so other other their ecosystems are actually much more exclusive than than ours so uh but but

we are a sort of a B&B Binance kind of you know uh like most of the guys hold some BNB so they they're kind of more aligned that way u so yeah there's

advantages but it's it's a open it's a it's not a it's not a closed garden yeah >> since you did me a favor and came on I I'll do a favor and see what I can do with Phantom um in with BMBB I'll see

what I can do Mr. Mr. It's easy. Uh, you

know, >> we welcome we welcome them to support, you know, BME Chen. Yeah.

>> ETA. Yeah. So, we talked about memecoins and I think the other sort of obvious story of this cycle has been the rise of perplexes.

And I want to talk about Aster a little bit and I guess a good way to segue in is why do you think there's been I mean I guess they've always been big but particularly right now this rise of

perplexes in crypto and what do you attribute all of hyperlquids like early success to?

>> Uh sure. I think well number one is um perpex is not super new right you know there was dyex um there was many other things there was even other things

before that um and but I think hyperlquid is quite good in terms of um uh their the way they the way the way all the transactions are traceable

onchain and you know leverage the vault thing um and they were quite good at marketing they were they know they they they got James Wayne putting a billion dollar orders there So it's just like

well a lot of hype. I think that that's probably the the best way to describe it. Um and but I I always thought you

it. Um and but I I always thought you know um uh traders needs their own trading privacy, right? Every every

single trader on Wall Street that I talk to do not want others people to see their orders in real time. Afterwards

maybe okay even afterwards they probably don't like people seeing their orders because people can reverse engineer their algorithms and once they do they will they will attack it. So in my mind, if you know exactly how how another

person is going to trade, there's always there's always one way to trade against them to lose for them to lose money, right? So for me, that transparency

right? So for me, that transparency aspect never made that much sense. Um

that's just 20 years of my experience in the trading industry on Wall Street, crypto, centralized exchange, etc. That just doesn't make sense. Um I just can't get over that. So I posted a tweet um I

think early June this year like maybe three four months ago and you know I got like I got 30 in incoming pitches on that day. Um and then Esther says look

that day. Um and then Esther says look um Esther says look we can we can implement this hidden order. I was like go for it. And some other guy says okay we can do a complete privacy deck. Um so

go for it. And so we invest in I actually invest in a in a bunch um of them. So um um and then uh so so that's

them. So um um and then uh so so that's kind of like I do think uh espec especially given the relative volumes um I think if if not this cycle the next

cycle um in four years time I think that just will would definitely rival CX trading volumes.

>> Whoa. Um so yeah I mean that was be my immediate followup is like how big can like how big is the total adjustable market for perexes? Like do you Yeah.

like what has to happen for them to flip sexes.

Uh so there's two I believe there's two force well there's two sort of factors in play right I think for most people new to crypto uh when they want to use an exchange they will use a centralized exchange first >> okay yeah

>> right so they want to use email and password and customer support so that's you know they don't want to deal with the address uh keys backups and mevs and all this other stuff right when you use a dex you you look at a lot more random

strings on the screen right that's you know you got to look at explorer um this and that so um I that experience is not good for newcomers. So, uh and right now the centralized exchange are nowhere

near saturated the market, right? So, I

think 90 something% of people are not in crypto and when those guys come to the crypto, they will go into CX first. But

at the same time, after a while, um the the Dexes offer more product selections, more access, uh more random stuff like know that's out there. uh more early uh

I think Dexis will give you access to more early stage tokens, coins, memes, how however you have it. Um so that that's kind of the the the the the uh the the the bleeding edge right so but

one after a while people will once they get comfortable with managing their own private keys backups security etc they will they will migrate I think um and then u so I think in the long future if

you look like know 20 30 50 years out I think that's everything will be onchain um but in the in the interim depends on what speed if there's a big rush of traditional users coming into the space

CX will get Um and but afterwards they will slowly slip into dexes I think. Yeah. Um but CX also are much more regulated and they will have fiat channels uh banking

channels etc. So those will not traditional financial industry is not going to disappear overnight. Um it's

going to take probably centuries u so um so there and so there's needs for both but I do think in the future the decentralized space will get quite big.

I think that pipeline makes sense, right? Like on board to sex, get deeper

right? Like on board to sex, get deeper into crypto, move over to DEX.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> What do you think has to happen for Aster to truly flip and be bigger than Hyperlquid?

>> Um, well, I think it's kind of I I I think depends on the day, on the time.

It's kind of happening already. Uh, I

think it's a two different use cases.

Um, so, uh, even with that little feature change, it's a it's a different is a very different use case. I think

look if you want to trade openly for everyone to see um you know um you could use hyperlquid that's that's great uh if you want to have a certain level of

privacy also like on u I also believe that aster is more open to native uh deposits right so you can deposit native salona tokens uh using aster you can

deposit more it supports more blockchains natively again I believe it's more open it's not the misconception is like a is a B&B chain

uh um perpex it is but it's very open um so um uh I so I think at the end of the day there's so many things I think both are new products both products are literally less less than one or two

years old uh Aster is actually a derivation of Apollo X which is a older product um so it has a bit more history but both products are very new um and so

u it's the future could be anyone's it could be a new players who knows um so being being first doesn't in fact doesn't doesn't always guarantee that you're always the biggest and also uh

sometimes being second is actually a lot better because you avo you learn much quicker.

>> Well that's that's what the openc dilemma right the openc thesis. Um so

why couldn't Jeff and hyperlquid just add sort of this darkpool privacy functionality like do you think that's something that they will do and does that change the aster thesis if they do?

Uh well well number one is I think that definitely could I think that I would I would say they should uh that's that would be my my recommendation to them.

Uh but uh but exchanges don't compete on one feature right over time there will be different features different philosophies different fun different funders have different vision um so they will copy each other they will like know

there will be many different features that will come out um so um the exchanges don't compete on single features um and then how you how you

protect users how you deal with mistakes um all of that you know uh uh it matters and uh also both of them are going to move to L1 blockchains in the future,

right? So, u uh how those are

right? So, u uh how those are structured, what technology they use, um and then once you move on to a L1 blockchain, what kind of ecosystem can you attract around that blockchain uh

matters? So, there's quite a lot more to

matters? So, there's quite a lot more to just a single feature. Um so, I think that's kind of what we see at this stage, but they will both evolve. Yeah,

>> I like that take. And something I want to ask you following up is what do you think is the most important metric to gauge success with these perexes? Like

there was this there's a little bit of controversy, right, where Defi Llama, who I had on the stream recently, sort of stopped tracking Aster on the back.

There was this crazy influx of volume and I know there's, you know, airdrop incentives, all these things. And they

sort of were like, we can't tell what's real volume, what's fake, what's wash trading, what's not. So until we can figure it out, we're going to sort of stop tracking Aster. We'll come back to it. Like what do you think is the metric

it. Like what do you think is the metric that people should pay attention to to decide who's, you know, winning the perexes, if you will.

>> Yeah. I think it's not a single metric, right? So um um I think well if if it

right? So um um I think well if if it was a single metric, it should be number of users plus volume.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh because um um I mean this this is a age old problem, right? Even running a centralized exchange, people say look um you know how do you stop wor trading?

But but if you look think about from the exchange perspective, how do they tell if it's wash trading or not? Like two

people two people paying trading fees trading, right? If you zero fee, then

trading, right? If you zero fee, then you know that's a different thing. Uh

with an airdrop is a little bit different too. People are like trying to

different too. People are like trying to farm the airdrop, right? So and that actually incentivize them to trade more.

But at what point is that is that worth trading or not? Again, that's a uh that's a that's a that's a very subjective one. Um and I think for for I

subjective one. Um and I think for for I think look I think for diva llama the smarter thing for them to do is just a level there's an airdrop going on right like no that's the fact right so then

that's people understand okay that volume has an airdrop going um so uh different airdrop is very common for many many many projects right um even

hyperlquid did it a doing doing now um so um and then uh uh so this trading volume this know can be affected by airdrops number of users is the number of addresses or number of users on

decks. You don't you don't have you

decks. You don't you don't have you don't have you don't you don't have accounts >> you you only have addresses like how do you count that uh people can game that too like one bot can can run a thousand addresses um so and then there's a

revenue commission etc. So I think you got to look at a combination but at the end of the day um people will slowly gravitate towards where they for people for users they will gra gravitate to

where to where they can get the best price which which usually come from the decks that have the best liquidity. Um

so uh lowest fees u most stable most secure um uh lowest fees. So users care about those three things really um so nothing else matters. Yeah, that was one of the things I was going to ask you is

like how do you even tell what is real volume? Like is that like have a

volume? Like is that like have a definition like what does that even mean exactly?

>> This one actually. Yeah. So I do have a I do have an idea. So uh for most people if you want to buy like say $1,000 of whatever token let's say the token is

available on two exchanges just buy $500 here and $500 there. And you can compare like look uh for $500 how much that how much of this token did I get on this exchange

>> versus how many tokens did I get on this exchange and then you withdraw that and you you compare that in your wallet >> then this way you'll see the deposit fees if there's any the withdraw fees if there's any if there's any slippage if

there's any fees is what you get at the end and many users will do this sort of not so systematically but they get they get a feel and then they stick to the to the ones they typically have a better experience and they will do a thousand

times more there. Yeah.

>> Yeah, it makes sense. Um, okay. I have

sort of one segue question and then like a quick little rapid fire if you have like 10 more minutes. Um, my segue question for you is, you know, you sort of have this famous story where a decade

plus ago you found out about Bitcoin, you quit your job, put your net worth in it, sold your house, like went all in, right? And onchain currently exists in

right? And onchain currently exists in this spot where you know the joke is like the average whole time on Salana is like 17 seconds right everyone's trading memecoins nobody can can hold anything for any amount of time and you you know

fullported your net worth I think you wrote it down for like two or three years until Bitcoin finally played out what is the mental framework to even

begin to develop conviction on a thesis like what you had with Bitcoin?

>> Uh yeah sure. So it took me about six months to fully understand Bitcoin. Like

I I first came across Bitcoin in July 2013ish like summer 2013. And then it was by December that that year I said okay look um this is the future. I now

understand it. This is the future. So it

takes quite a bit to get that conviction. Um for me it was like this

conviction. Um for me it was like this is the future. So this is uh I was like 35 36 uh somewhere around there. Um, and

then um, so for me it's a life decision.

It's not like, oh, I'm just going to buy this and for the ne I'm gonna make money for the next day or next week or next three months and then I'm going to come back. This is, uh, I was too young when

back. This is, uh, I was too young when the internet thing was happening. I was

just out of college. Um, and then now I'm 35. So, uh, the next thing is going

I'm 35. So, uh, the next thing is going to be 15 years later. So, I'll be 50, which is true. Right now, AI is all all the hype. I'm 50. I'm 48. So, uh, uh, so

the hype. I'm 50. I'm 48. So, uh, uh, so like now I'm too old to catch that. I

was like look I'm 35 36 at that time this is my time I gota this is and I'm lucky because this is a technology that will transform transform the future. So

once you have that kind of view this is not a like you know I'm going to make make quick money for three months and come back kind of thing right so I'm just into this industry and this is the future and it was very clear to me once

I once I understood the technology there wasn't any doubt anymore it wasn't like oh I'm not sure who said this and that that would change my mind like this is the future period. Um so uh this industry is the future. I just got to

find the right thing and Bitcoin is the future right? So Bitcoin is is a

future right? So Bitcoin is is a flagship. Nothing challenges it um at

flagship. Nothing challenges it um at the time especially and even today I don't think anything come close to challenging it. So for me that

challenging it. So for me that conviction is always there. So I'm not there for like a quick buck. I'm not a I'm not there as a trader. I'm there as know this is the future technology. Um

so uh and I'm a technologist. I'm a

coder. So this is the industry I want to be in. And if I want to be in, I'm 30

be in. And if I want to be in, I'm 30 something. Uh, I want to be all in

something. Uh, I want to be all in because I didn't have that much cash.

So, I have to go all in and I have to quit my job and work working work in this industry. Um, many people think

this industry. Um, many people think that would be very high risk. But for

me, if Bitcoin goes to went to zero, I can come back. I I can get a job at a bank uh as an IT person. I will get a six seven figure six figure salary. Um,

like my life will be fine. So, um, um, so that's kind of my fall back. So I

have I had a fallback. Uh so even though I risk all everything financially, my fallback is pretty solid. So um um so so for me and then u when Bitcoin dipped

after I bought uh for like two years um and that was a bit painful, but I'm like either I'm really wrong or everybody haven't realized this yet. Um so but I

just just said look then I couldn't sell, right? So if I sell I would if I

sell, right? So if I sell I would if I sell what else what else am I going to do? So I'm I'm stuck. So I'm stuck for

do? So I'm I'm stuck. So I'm stuck for like basically uh 18 months or so and then Bitcoin started going back up again. Once you go through through the

again. Once you go through through the first cycle, the future cycles are easy.

The future cycle is like I bought it. I

I went through a $200 bare market. Every

like then bit then the next bare market was like no 3,000. Dude, I went I went through 200. Now it's 3,000. What are

through 200. Now it's 3,000. What are

you complaining about? And now people now it drops to like know 115 120k.

People go oh it's dropped. Like, dude.

>> Hey, hey, you look good for 48, man.

>> Uh, I think it's the lighting or standing, but I I do try to keep I work out, you know, I um I Yeah, I I do try to keep fit now, you know.

>> Okay, I got a couple rapid fire for you.

Um, >> how how old were you when you made your first million dollars?

>> Uh, uh, I would say probably around 2017 16 2017, just before Binance actually.

just before Binance and and where were you working in 2016 2017?

>> Uh well number one the Bitcoin price went up somewhere around that time. I

didn't I didn't track and calculate the whole time and also the business uh BJtech was doing good business. So um I uh it was a B2B business and was

business was very very steady and uh so I was financially barely financially free just before Binance actually.

>> That's awesome. Um, who who is the most talented person that you think you've ever worked with or like had to compete against?

>> Uh, I work with some really smart uh uh coders. Uh, one of my first bosses, he

coders. Uh, one of my first bosses, he was like seven years older than me. He's

a genius coder, but he's unreliable.

Like when he really focuses really good, but he only really focuses like maybe 5% of the time. So from him, I actually learned to be a better coder. But the

more important lesson I learned is to be more reliable.

>> Yeah, makes sense. Um, one other thing I have for you is like, >> okay, really earlier in your career, you've sort of always been adjacent to trading, right? Like you worked at

trading, right? Like you worked at Bloomberg, you worked on at Tokyo Exchanges, >> and now here we are talking about like meme coins on B&B and Salana. Like, how

much has the game of trading evolved from when you first were adjacent to the scene to where we are right now?

>> Oh, yeah. It's evolved a lot a lot. Um

no in uh in in the traditional world right you have you have dedicated data centers at the stock exchange you have collocation um the the the market opens for six hours or four hours a day right

you have the morning sessions afternoon session that's a pre uh pre-open auction market and then you know 9:00 it opens and 3:30 it closes and then you can do all your system maintenance afterwards

when the stock market is closed. Now

it's like 24/7. Uh it's onchain. Um it's

every minute every second and it's memecoins. Uh it's it's totally

memecoins. Uh it's it's totally different. Uh the tech the fundamental

different. Uh the tech the fundamental concepts are similar. Um but the the the the contents are very different. So um

uh it Yeah. So but

>> some of the some of the concepts still apply but the technologies evolved and the industries evolved. Yeah. So, uh,

one thing I have for you is like if you were to start, if you were starting over right now and you I'm 23. So, if you were 23 in, >> 2025, what game do you think you'd be playing

right now? Whether that's in crypto,

right now? Whether that's in crypto, whether that's some other thing in tech, some other thing in finance, like because there's a lot of like Salana sort of younger generation people that watch this stream, like what vertical do

you think you'd be hyperfocused on right now?

>> Um, okay. Okay. So, I'll give some fairly contro controversial advice here.

So, do do don't take my advice take my advice with a grain of salt. Um, I would do startups much earlier.

>> Okay.

>> Uh, I think in the future uh if you work at a desk job like you know that's good but you won't you have but the real opportunities in the startups. I would

join startups much earlier to to get experience and I would run the startup earlier. Um, so again that's super high

earlier. Um, so again that's super high risk. Uh so I think when you're doing

risk. Uh so I think when you're doing that you should always think about the worst case right what's the worst case that could happen if everything went to zero how's your life you want to be able to say look I can still live my life uh

so that's the thing you got to have as a backup u but once you have that backup your life will be okay um then I will do startups much much earlier

>> like there's a there's a balance to that too early without experience you're going to guarantee to fail and you're going to crash into a wall um so try to avoid that u So do have the backup plan.

Yeah.

>> Okay. My least favorite narrative, my the thing I hate the most that gets shared in crypto is this idea that you have this finite period to make it and if you know the the GCR famous tweet,

you have a couple years after college to hyper hyper gamble into elite status or you're stuck in the permanent underclass forever. And I think this is part of the

forever. And I think this is part of the psychology that le that fuels the 17-second whole time on Salana. and you

know I have to you know I have to hit the hero god trade or I'm I'm stuck as a wage [ __ ] for the rest of my life. How

do you think about how much time the younger generation has to make it?

>> I have a lot of time. Uh so I'm the I'm the I'm the typical counter example of what you just described. I started

Binance when I was 40. So I'm 48 right now. So u uh so I you know I spent the

now. So u uh so I you know I spent the first 20 17 years of work in my work life doing different things. I was

successful. I was a good coder. I was a good developer. I became a manager uh in

good developer. I became a manager uh in a large organization. And um but uh uh it took me so you're never too late. Uh

there's a misconception that you know many all the founders are very young. Uh

the average funders are quite old actually like 40 plus. Um and um but I would say it also take quite a number of failures to become successful. uh doing

startups and all this new things are really hard. So I think you can start

really hard. So I think you can start early. You want to try things as early

early. You want to try things as early as possible, but you want to manage your risk and make sure you don't crush really really hard. You can you can fail, but you want to be able to bounce

back. Um but also don't be overly um

back. Um but also don't be overly um desperate or uh uh eager. Um uh we have seen failures where it was because of founders mentality. They want to they

founders mentality. They want to they want to become really successful really really quickly. They're smart guys, but

really quickly. They're smart guys, but they're too they're too quick, right?

Yeah.

>> See, this is why I like your stories.

You're sort of the antithesis of you have to make it when you're 19 or you know you're [ __ ] Um I Okay, I'll let you go after this. This is basically the last thing I want to ask you is I want

to ask where do you see the crypto media thing going? And I want to ask if you

thing going? And I want to ask if you have if you have any advice for the type of stuff that I'm doing, the stream, I run a media company in crypto. You you

know, you interface with a lot of people who do media in crypto. like where do you see that going and how do you win the hardest as somebody trying to dominate that scene?

>> Yeah. So I think uh well number one is I think traditional media is going to be gone. Um so that so that industry is

gone. Um so that so that industry is going to be completely revamped. Um and

uh social media is going to be big and in within social media there's many many independent small media. Um and uh some of them will not be so small. uh some of some of them will have like know u tens

millions or even hundreds of millions of followers etc. they they will have pretty strong voices. Um as long as you do a good job. Uh so I think uh also uh the world is getting smaller before

every media per country. um in the future I think you know you this live stream is probably watched by people from 100 different countries right so uh and then uh crypto enables micro fin uh

microp payments so people will want to watch per episode like know they want to pay like 10 cents or uh.1 cents per for some episodes etc etc as long as you have a large enough followership you'll

make very good money I think u and then you can do sp you can you can do sponsorship deals etc I think right right now uh the world lacks or the

world needs uh strong cred credible news sources uh um and uh uh the traditional media is just failing that uh so this is a great opportunity uh in my in my opinion. Yeah,

opinion. Yeah, >> I love it and shout out to shout out to Counterparty and everyone that helped make the stream possible and yeah I mean to sort of wrap like I tried really hard

Mr. CZ, I didn't want to glaze you, but when I started doing the streaming, doing this media, I mean, we spent a lot of time asking the question, how, you know, how did we get to the point where

we get CZ on the stream eventually, and you kind of came on at the perfect time when everything's pretty crazy? So, at

like human to human, thank you for coming on. Um, I'm like, as someone

coming on. Um, I'm like, as someone that's in crypto, I'm obviously a fan >> and I'm rooting for for what you're doing. Success of B&B, success of

doing. Success of B&B, success of everything on top of it. Um, is there anything you want to rap with? Like

anything that you're excited about, anything that you're working on, anything that you want to shout out, anything that you want to show that you think people should pay attention to?

Like where where are you sort of at right now?

>> Sure. I I mean, I don't have much to add. Uh I think look um this crypto

add. Uh I think look um this crypto industry is never going to be a smooth ride. Um there's always going to be a

ride. Um there's always going to be a lot of challenges. There will be some setbacks. There'll be some issues. I

setbacks. There'll be some issues. I

think the the uh strong founders, the strong projects, the strong communities go through this issues, right? So there

are issues that will come and then we as a community will address them the best way we can. Um I can tell you personally I faced some pretty difficult issues in my life. Uh I have really good times and

my life. Uh I have really good times and really no really tough times. So u but I think look we are here we we want to do the right as long as everyone's doing the right thing. We're not hurting anyone. We're not we're not we're not we

anyone. We're not we're not we're not we uh we we're trying to help. We're not

doing any fraud anything like that. Then

we continue to build an industry. You

can do memes. You can do utility tokens.

You can do uh tokenized securities.

There's many different areas which is actually really good. So I think in my I'm a builder so I I strongly believe as long as we continue to build this industry will continue to grow or this industry will continue to grow regardless because um there are builders

out there because this is a new technology that's much better than the technologies we had before for money. So

uh so I'm very I'm very I'm very bullish and I think this week is a pretty rough week. It's like you know really bouncy

week. It's like you know really bouncy week. Um, but I I look, next week when

week. Um, but I I look, next week when we look back, everything will be fine and um this will just be a blip and things will be better. Yeah,

>> Cece, you're the goat, bro. I'm I'm

happy you're back on Twitter. You're

like our like optimistic unk that like holds it down for everyone. So, thank

you for coming on. Honestly, it was a [ __ ] pleasure. I'm honored and we're rooting for you, man. I I really appreciate the time.

>> Thank you so much, Michael. Thanks for

having me. Yeah,

>> dude. Of course. You're the truth, man.

Have a good one. Peace.

>> All right. Cheers. Yeah. Bye. Right.