Bitcoin vs Gold: CZ & Peter Schiff Battle Over the Future of Money

Well, pretty pretty full crowd. Um,

>> well, it's a small room. It's a small room, but uh I think there's a lot of people upstairs as well. Um well, first of all, Peter, thank you so much for coming. Uh I feel like I'm kind of a

coming. Uh I feel like I'm kind of a host here.

>> Um so, um I want to keep it a bit civilized at the beginning. Um we'll see how how it evolves. Um so, first of all, I want to thank you for taking your time to come over here and I think it was very courageous of you to step on this

stage in this crowd. It feels like a there's definitely a home homec court advantage for me here.

>> Yeah. Well, I got some supporters in the crowd, but absolutely even if they disagree with me on Bitcoin, they agree with me on a lot of other things. But I

definitely appreciate and thank you for uh hosting this event and uh bringing me out here. And at least uh you had the

out here. And at least uh you had the courage. I mean uh I've been, you know,

courage. I mean uh I've been, you know, trying to get Michael Sailor to debate me for years and he's afraid. But no,

>> you've got no you've got no problem.

>> I can arrange that for later tonight.

>> Try. Is he still in town?

>> He is. He is. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I want to give you a little bit of opportunity first. Um I I know you're

opportunity first. Um I I know you're doing a digit digit eventually you will do a tokenized gold like a uh project, right?

>> Yeah, that that's how this whole thing got started because I was talking about that >> on on a crypto podcast that you I guess you happen to see it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Um but yeah, so I have you know my website is Told.com.

So the T actually is for tokenized gold.

>> Yeah. Um, I was actually surprised Tether never grabbed that URL, but anyway, I I took it. So, it's t-gold.com and and right now if you go to t- gold.com, you can buy physical gold and silver.

>> Yeah.

>> And we store it for you.

>> Yeah.

>> And ultimately, um, people who own gold and silver in this form and it's all it's segregated and vaulted. It's not it's not

and vaulted. It's not it's not comingled. It's not, you know, it's it's

comingled. It's not, you know, it's it's it's allocated gold, not unallocated gold. So, you own it. it's stored, you

gold. So, you own it. it's stored, you know, in in a vault. Um, but ultimately there'll be two ways that you can withdraw your gold other than sell it.

You can sell it and just get dollars.

But one way is to withdraw in physical form. You can take delivery of bars or

form. You can take delivery of bars or coins in whatever denomination that you want or you can also take delivery in the form of a token. Y

>> and so when you take delivery of the token and now you can deposit it in your wallet or put it on an exchange to the extent that we get it listed on an exchange but you can withdraw the token

right and what the token represents is ownership of gold.

>> Y >> you know you own the gold it's in a vault but the token is the evidence that you own it. Like if you check uh you know your your your your coat and they

give you a a claim check. The claim

check isn't a coat, but it it's redeemable in a code.

>> Sure.

>> Um, and so the the the tokenized gold now is your your ownership of gold, but if you want, you can transfer that token or any portion of it because it's divisible. Uh, you can transfer part of

divisible. Uh, you can transfer part of that to somebody else. Uh, and now that other person owns the gold and so you transfer the ownership of the gold rather than the physical gold. The gold

sits in a vault. Uh, but the ownership can change hands. And now you can use your token as a medium of exchange. And

so now you have a viable monetary unit that is a store of value because it's backed by the gold that that's in the vault that you that anybody can can take

delivery of. But in the meantime, you

delivery of. But in the meantime, you know, you've taken gold and you've now made it more uh transportable, more divisible, more funible. you've improved

on all of its monetary properties, but you don't lose the most important property, which is it's a store of value because it's its value is the gold uh that the token represents.

>> So, what I'm hearing is saying is actually the tokenized gold is actually almost better than the gold itself in in the ways that it's divisible, it's transferable, transportable, it's a medium of exchange, etc. Right.

>> Yeah. As for money purposes, yes.

Obviously, if you want to actually do something with the gold, if you're a jeweler, you can't do you have to take the token and redeem it, right? If

you're, you know, if you're manufacturing computer chips and you need gold, >> you have to redeem the token. But as far as using it as money, >> yeah,

>> yes, it improves on on gold just like the old blacksmiths, right? Originally

when people had gold and they would have it stored with a blacksmith, the blacksmith would write out of IOU, a piece of paper >> y >> which could then circulate in place of

gold because it was more convenient and that that was currency. And when

governments started currencies, they were legitimate because they were backed by gold. So instead of um you know

by gold. So instead of um you know engaging in commerce with the gold we used paper currency but that currency derived its value from the gold that

backed it up. Now fiat currency is paper currency backed by nothing. And so

there's nothing that gives it value other than faith and confidence. So

tokenized gold takes that to the digital level where instead of having a paper representation of ownership, I have a digital representation and I don't have to be in the same room to hand you a

piece of paper, I can transfer it.

>> But what Bitcoin is like, Bitcoin is like the fiat currency because it's backed by nothing, right? Whereas a

tokenized gold is legitimate because it's backed by something. It deres its value from gold. Bitcoin derives its value from confidence, from faith. If

people think it has value, then they're willing to buy it.

>> We can get to Bitcoin in a second, but I I just want to I think we actually agree on this point that the digitized gold might be actually better than gold in some in a lot of ways because the the tokenized the the version on the

blockchain is transferable. It's

divisible. It's it's more useful, right?

As long as the gold is there to back it up.

>> Correct. Yes. And and and and so it improves on gold. that makes gold better >> just like paper made it better except you know once the government came in and

corrupted it right then that was a problem but it wasn't a problem for gold it was just a problem with government but >> the um gold that's issued through a

token you don't need a government you don't need a any any private you know entity that has a good reputation and is trustworthy can

tokenize gold it doesn't need to be a U a government that does it and now people could use that as money and even if there's a lot of different tokens they're all fungeible because gold is gold.

>> Let's talk about gold for a little bit.

Um I have a magic box if um we can get that up up the stage. Yeah, Tintin, come over.

>> Today is actually the first time meeting Tinting. Tinting is actually a K for

Tinting. Tinting is actually a K for Aster. Yeah, please. Yeah, thank you.

Aster. Yeah, please. Yeah, thank you.

Thank you. It's It's pretty heavy. Ah,

>> so you know I have a nice box here.

>> What is that?

>> It has um some um I think it's Kirk Kirk Kirkus language.

>> Uh I took it back from Kyrgyzstan. He

has a certificate. I I got it I got this from a very important person from um uh Kyrgystan.

>> Uhhuh.

>> Very recently. Uh just completely by luck. So we take it out. It's pretty

luck. So we take it out. It's pretty

heavy. Um

put this down. You can see like it says um Turk stand 1,00 grams fine gold 99.9 >> and a serial number. Try it.

>> Yes. Yeah, it's heavy.

>> Is it real gold or no?

>> Well, I don't know. I mean I I you know I mean is this what you're trying to I mean let's see how it looks.

>> Well, you know the color is a little This is pure gold. My bracelet is pure gold. So the color looks a little off.

gold. So the color looks a little off.

Yeah, >> you know, but you know, >> I don't know. I mean, pro probably, you know, maybe it's not real gold.

>> It's given to me by a really important person. Is that

person. Is that >> Well, I know, but this is not a mint that I would recognize. I mean, the the thing about mints is if you know the name of the company that minted it and you trust them because they have a

reputation in the market, right, that they want to protect.

>> But this I mean, I've never I've never heard of any of this. So, I would have to I would have to probably assay it to know if this was real gold. But it the color looks a little off compared to my bracelet >> cuz this Huh.

>> It might be your bracelet that's a little bit off. I don't know.

>> So, uh >> it depends. Are you giving it to me?

>> I I see the >> Is it a gift?

>> This is the thing. I I wouldn't >> because if you're if you're if it's a gift, then I know it's If you're not going to give it to me, it's probably no gold. If it's a gift, then maybe it's

gold. If it's a gift, then maybe it's >> How much is this worth? like one one kg of gold right now.

>> Well, gold's about $4,200 an ounce.

>> So, >> so I mean that would that would probably be $50,000. I don't know. Do the math,

be $50,000. I don't know. Do the math, but I mean it seems like a lot of gold if it was real.

>> AI told me it's like a 130,000ish. Oh,

yeah. 130kish.

>> Right or wrong?

>> No. Well, gold is, as I said, it's about $4,200 an ounce. And that's what is that a >> It's 1 kg. So, I don't know.

>> A kilogram. How many ounces in a kilogram? 32

kilogram? 32 >> 32 >> 132 >> huh 13 >> 132k All right. See, so

>> I would want to give you I don't see it's 130. I don't want to give the whole

it's 130. I don't want to give the whole piece. I can give a little bit, but I

piece. I can give a little bit, but I can't like you know.

>> Well, that's why that's why you tokenize it. Then you can give me half of it,

it. Then you can give me half of it, right?

>> But they also make you know we sell it.

My company Shift Gold, we sell 10th ounce gold coins, >> right? Right.

>> right? Right.

>> You know, you can you can have small denomination and we sell them in by reputable mints. So you know that

reputable mints. So you know that they're real. You don't have to you

they're real. You don't have to you don't have to guess. You don't have to try to assay it. You look at the coin and you know you can tell if it's been, you know, monkeyed with. But, you know, >> see, I want to give it to you, but I don't know if you can take it out of the

country.

>> I'm sure I can just >> How many days are you staying in your >> You know what? No one's I can put that in my in my in my bag. No one's going to care.

>> You sure?

>> Yeah.

>> This country will some countries will put you in jail >> for for carrying that.

>> Yeah. For depends if you declared or not, etc. where you got it, who you got it from, all the sort.

>> Well, if I if I tell him I got it from you, what do you >> But you'll probably be you probably be even bigger trouble. But it

>> Huh?

>> But it is real gold. It is given to me by the president of Kirkland. So I do I have not >> Well, you probably have some sentimental value now. So you don't want to give it

value now. So you don't want to give it to me.

>> Uh well, especially after this, you have sentimental value, but we we'll see. So,

but the point is though um we if I give you Bitcoin right now, right, you can I can ver we can verify instantly you got Bitcoin in a number of ways.

>> Yeah, I understand that. Yeah.

>> Right. And also even with digit even with a tokenized gold, right? So if you send it to someone you you you can verify almost immediately, right?

>> Yeah. Same same with tokenized gold.

Yes.

>> So now I want to address your question about gold. Uh Bitcoin not based on

about gold. Uh Bitcoin not based on anything. Um do you use the iPhone or I

anything. Um do you use the iPhone or I saw I saw you >> I have an iPhone. Yeah. Right here. You

don't use Android, right?

>> No, I have an iPhone.

>> And you use the internet obviously. So

you use X, Google, Facebook, etc. Um and uh Google is virtual, right?

>> Excuse me.

>> Every the internet is virtual. The

internet has like nothing physical.

>> Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah.

>> So um when you use X, X is completely virtual. There's nothing physical about

virtual. There's nothing physical about it. But X is worth a lot of money,

it. But X is worth a lot of money, right? It has value. It's a it's a

right? It has value. It's a it's a utility tool, right? So internet has value right?

>> Yes. Yeah. There's no disputing that.

>> So, Bitcoin itself actually doesn't exist. I don't know if you if you if

exist. I don't know if you if you if everybody in the audience knows about this or not. There's no Bitcoin on the blockchain physically or virtually. All

all there is is records of transactions on the blockchain.

>> Yes.

>> Right. So, when when people say I send you one bitcoin, they are not sending one bitcoin. They just one one another

one bitcoin. They just one one another transaction on the ledger said I send you one.

>> Right. Nothing actually moves. There's

nothing that actually goes anywhere. I I

get that. And the way we calculate the way we figure out this address has one bitcoin is actually we go through all the transactions on blockchain. We look

at all the inputs and all the receiving and all the all all the sending out and then if there's a difference positive then you know this address has one blockchain or one bitcoin right so bitcoin actually doesn't exist anywhere

but it doesn't mean that because it's virtual it has no value right so google has a lot of value twitter has a lot of value um and when we know when uh uh uh

there's many virtual things that has value so a a per a item's value doesn't is not associated with its physical properties Even even with gold right the

industrial like computer chips which use gold the value of gold is much less than the value of the gold we give because it's a rare commodity uh precious prec precious metal right

>> yeah well first of all just because something is intangible right I mean there are tangible assets there's intangible assets I'm not saying that something has to be tangible to have value I mean all companies I mean your

company probably has goodwill that you know that's that has value but it's not something you can touch or deal. Uh,

it's an intangible asset. Um, and what makes Bitcoin worthless, as far as I'm concerned, is not the fact that I can't touch it or taste it or smell it. You

know, it I guess I recognize that things can be intangible and have value. It's

that you don't you can't do anything with it. It it doesn't have a utility

with it. It it doesn't have a utility beyond the fact that yes, I can transfer it to you and you can transfer it to somebody else. and the the whole

somebody else. and the the whole methodology, the way it works, yes, it's it's very uh uh uh smart. Uh the way the whole system is set up, I understand

that. But at the end of the day, when I

that. But at the end of the day, when I transfer my Bitcoin to you, I've transferred nothing. I have nothing. I

transferred nothing. I have nothing. I

give you nothing. Right? When I transfer tokenized gold to you, I've transferred gold. I've transferred the ownership of

gold. I've transferred the ownership of the gold. And what gives the gold the

the gold. And what gives the gold the value is what you do with it as a metal.

Gold has properties that other metals don't have, that other elements don't have, and it's needed. There are, you know, industries that need gold. They

must buy gold. They can't substitute copper or another metal. There are

things that only gold can do. And

companies need gold. Now, because gold is scarce, there's not just an abundant supply of gold. because it's very valuable, but there's not a lot of it, then it's going to have a high price

just by supply and demand. But even if you know, people say, well, you know, the real price, you know, it's not, you know, the investment price is $4,000 an

ounce, but maybe it's, you know, it's only worth some lesser amount. I don't

know. But the reason for the price, right, price is always going to be determined by supply and demand. One of

the um functions that gold serves for central banks is it backs up their currency. It's a monetary reserve asset

currency. It's a monetary reserve asset and that's also a use for gold and that helps determine the price of gold because you have central banks that need

it and they have to bid into the market uh to obtain it. But because gold doesn't decay, right? It doesn't lose

any value over time. When I own gold, I don't just own what I can do with it today, but I own what somebody else can do with it in a thousand years, in

10,000 years. Because gold doesn't go

10,000 years. Because gold doesn't go away. I mean, the gold that was mined

away. I mean, the gold that was mined 10,000 years ago, it's still here.

>> I mean, you know, it doesn't go anywhere, and it's no different than it was in the past. And so gold's price today represents the present value of

all of the uses from now until the end of time. Sure,

of time. Sure, >> you don't have that with other commodities that that that that have a shelf life that decay, they rot. Okay?

Right. Gold is unique in the fact that it never goes anywhere. And that's what makes it a store of value, too. Because

when I own gold, I am storing the use of that gold from now until the end of time. Even if I don't use it myself, if

time. Even if I don't use it myself, if I just hold on to it, somebody somewhere in the future is going to use that gold.

But there are people that also need to use it today in the present.

>> So you said a lot of things there.

There's actually a lot of things that are very interesting uh and we're so close uh to get you over. Um so

>> I wouldn't be so sure about that.

>> So uh so first of all on the gold, right? Um, you said that uh the gold is

right? Um, you said that uh the gold is always there. How much gold is there in

always there. How much gold is there in in the world?

>> Well, I don't have to know exactly, but I know it's pretty scarce and the supply grows relatively slowly.

>> We don't know, right? We don't know.

>> Well, no, I don't know how much is in the earth's crust, >> right? So, tomorrow we can find another,

>> right? So, tomorrow we can find another, you know, China can find can find another big mine and then, you know, there will be more gold and you know, now there's synthetic diamonds. Later

on, we may be advanced enough to in chemistry to be able to that's a holy grail. Everyone wants to do synthetic

grail. Everyone wants to do synthetic gold but >> they've had alchemists for centuries trying to figure out how to make gold.

In fact, there was an article recently that somebody figured out how to make a speck of gold.

>> I don't think that was true though. But

the point is though with Bitcoin, we know exactly how how how much they are.

All the things you said about gold like till infinity, we know how we know how much gold they know how much Bitcoin there will be and we know we know exactly where they are, right? So we

kind of it's definitely uh a finite supply. You also mentioned very very

supply. You also mentioned very very interestingly on gold still I'll get to Bitcoin in a second um that the central banks use gold as to back the currency which we both which we all know that

stopped in 1971. Right. So now you know as you said the currency is not really backed by anything. So gold is no longer used in that capacity.

>> Well it's not used the currencies are not redeemable in gold. Yeah. But if you have currency and if your currency starts losing value in the market and

you need to defend it, you need to prop it up, you need something to sell to buy back your own currency. And so central banks can use gold to do that to secure the value of their currency in the

market. You can you can sell your gold

market. You can you can sell your gold and buy back your currency and and and and keep it propped up. So that that's why you the central banks need a reserve asset. So recently when the Bitcoin

asset. So recently when the Bitcoin price oh sorry when the gold price goes up that means a lot of central banks are probably printing currency to buy gold themselves right >> well I mean central banks are printing money all the time that's that's where

inflation comes from >> so you mentioned earlier on the utility value so you recognize that bitcoin is no it's not uh anything virtual it doesn't have to be tangible to have value right so and go >> right it has to have a use it has to do

something >> but the gold's utility in in commercial use is not where where the value is from go's value derived from it. It's a it's a it's is a rare commodity, right? And

Bitcoin has a lot of utility. Bitcoin is

not just for sending and receiving.

Bitcoin is a entire industry. It's a is a new technology for money.

>> No, it's it's not a new technology for money because it's not being used as money and it's not really money because it's not a commodity. It's not, you know, money by definition is going to be

the most liquid commodity. uh and and Bitcoin doesn't really qualify even though the you know the uh uh government might classify it as a commodity.

>> There's different definitions for levels for there's a label for money and there's a and there's label for value right Bitcoin is a two trillion two three trillion dollar asset and it's

still growing right Bitcoin has a price I mean there's no no arguing that it has a price but it has a price because people want to buy it and because a lot of people who own it don't want to sell it because they think the price is going

to keep going up. So, but that doesn't mean that it has any underlying value just because it has a price, just because people are willing to speculate in it. But that's what Bitcoin is being

in it. But that's what Bitcoin is being used as. It's not being used as money.

used as. It's not being used as money.

It's being used as a speculative digital asset. I mean, to me, people collect

asset. I mean, to me, people collect Bitcoin and they collect Bitcoin because they think the collection is going to be more valuable in the future.

>> So, I think you have a very narrow definition of money, which is what you believe and what governments believe, right? So for example, if we ask the

right? So for example, if we ask the audience here, how many people believe Bitcoin is money? Like let's see, right?

So but this is a this is a this is an unfair crowd here, right? But you know, but this is unfair crowd. But uh but the point is though many people do recognize Bitcoin as as money. Uh well, whether we

call it money, how you define it, we can debate about that the definitions of it.

>> Well, nothing is priced in Bitcoin. So

it's not a a a unit of account when you you know you >> the price is relative though like no uh we can reverse calculate like the the price of US dollars in Bitcoin is 0.0 No, but that's like an exchange rate.

But I'm talking about merchandise, people that are selling goods and services, which would include, you know, labor. Nobody quotes wages or prices in

labor. Nobody quotes wages or prices in a fixed quantity of Bitcoin, right?

You're not going to it doesn't happen anywhere. the to the extent that even

anywhere. the to the extent that even somebody was to get paid in Bitcoin, they would have a salary in dollars or in euros and then when it came time to

get paid, they would try to figure out how many Bitcoin they need to equal that number of dollars or number of euros.

It's not a unit of account like money and it's not being used as a medium of exchange but people most of the Bitcoin it's like traded on Binance and you know it's you know people gamble with it.

They buy it and they sell it. They day

trade it or they hodal it. Uh but

they're not using it I mean as a medium of exchange. It's not a unit of account

of exchange. It's not a unit of account and it's can't be a store of value because you can't store what you don't have.

>> Uh just because some just because some things uh prices fluctuating doesn't mean you couldn't get paid for it. Um I

got paid in salary in Bitcoin in 2014.

So 11.

>> What was your salary?

>> Um was like I don't know wasn't that high. It was like 100kish at that time.

high. It was like 100kish at that time.

>> No but no no you said it was in Bitcoin.

Was your salary a quantity of Bitcoin?

>> Uh well, as you said, you we'll rebase every month, right? But

>> yeah, but that's See, that's not the same thing. If it was money, somebody

same thing. If it was money, somebody would have to say my salary is a tenth of a Bitcoin uh you know, a month and that's all I get. I get that Bitcoin

whether it's up or down. That's my

salary. It's fixed in Bitcoin.

>> I can I could actually show you a number of contracts that Binance has. Uh we do it in Bitcoin, right? So for example, one of the early um investors or uh uh business partners that wanted to exit,

we said, "Look, we're going to we're going to give you this much money. You

can take in US dollars or you can take in bitcoin." And we fix a bitcoin at

in bitcoin." And we fix a bitcoin at that at that time. And we hold that.

>> Oh, you fixed the price.

>> We fix we fix in bitcoin. And that

person got a lot more bitcoins over time. The same number of bitcoins, but

time. The same number of bitcoins, but bitcoin's value went up. Right. We still

>> But that's a unique situation where you have somebody who wants Bitcoin as a Bitcoin investor and they want to get they're they're just >> it's a small number but people do transact in Bitcoin as a unit. It

happens. Um

>> well that that's the exception not the rule. The vast majority I mean not

rule. The vast majority I mean not almost all of the Bitcoin transactions are not uh to buy goods and services.

They are people buying and selling Bitcoin to each other without any work being done, without any goods being being purchased, right? It's just

trading. That's all that's happening.

>> It's not necessarily true, right? So the

stock So I think we're getting off topic a little bit. I'm not arguing whether Bitcoin is money or not. We we're really >> You said it was money.

>> Uh that well we then we will be arguing about the definition of money. Uh the

different how we define that level. Um

but the more important part is whether Bitcoin is valuable, right? So I think whether it has value and that's the core definition. Well that's the core debate

definition. Well that's the core debate whereas u I think many many people in this room obviously has recognize bitcoin has value. Um bitcoin has and the bitcoin value some part of it is

come from speculation on binance on other exchange but a large part of it comes from the utility value of it. The

fact that I can use it I can transport it. I move to I move to different

it. I move to I move to different countries all the time right. So with

with this piece of gold I won't be a it's not easy for me to take it across different countries whereas it's a it's a good store of value which which is true but uh bitcoin has reasoning value

not just a store of value has actually gone up in value over the last 15 years.

>> Well first of all tokenized gold solves that problem because you can take the tokenized gold with you but >> but the tokenized gold I have to trust a third party.

>> All right well just find a trusted third party. I mean

party. I mean >> which I which I could but but Bitcoin I don't have to do that. That's utility.

>> Well, but you have but then you have to trust something more. You have to trust that I trust the technology >> people still want but people still want Bitcoin.

>> I mean Yeah. I mean, yes. You know, you mentioned that, you know, there's a >> So, it's there's 21 million Bitcoin.

>> It's very easy to trust.

>> Yeah. All right. So, there's 2.1 quadrillion Satoshi's, right? There's

there's they're not that scarce when you express it that way, but there's a lot of Satoshi's out there. But yes, there is some maximum quantity of Satoshi's uh that are out there. But none of it matters if people don't want them. Look

look look at the last few years because Bitcoin today is 40%.

>> How many years have you been saying this though?

>> Well, for a long time, right? But look,

mother, Bitcoin today is 40% lower priced in gold than it was four years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> So over the past four years since Bitcoin peaked, I >> Is that true?

>> Yes.

>> I'm not sure if that's true.

>> Yeah. When when when when Bitcoin was 69,0004 years ago, it bought 37.2 ounces of gold. Today, and I just checked

of gold. Today, and I just checked before, it buys 22.15 ounces. So,

Bitcoin buys 40% fewer ounces of gold today than it did four years ago.

>> Gold did better than Bitcoin in the last four years.

>> Four years. A lot better.

>> How about How about eight years?

>> No. No. But, let me finish the point that I'm making. Right. Over the last four years, think about what's happened in Bitcoin.

First of all, we had all of the Bitcoin ETFs that got launched that didn't exist to buy Bitcoin. We got all these companies copycat from uh Strategy, but

we also have Strategy that borrowed, you know, $40 billion to buy Bitcoin or issued stock and debt to buy 40 billion.

But we had other crypto companies buying Bitcoin. We had ads at the Super Bowl.

Bitcoin. We had ads at the Super Bowl.

We had celebrity endorsements. Uh, we

had the NFT craze, we had El Salvador, we had the Bitcoin strategic reserve.

We've had all of this money and hype and promotion. Unprecedented. That's all

promotion. Unprecedented. That's all

anybody talks about. You go on financial news stations. Every guest is talking

news stations. Every guest is talking about Bitcoin. Every commercial is

about Bitcoin. Every commercial is Bitcoin or crypto. They're the biggest advertisers. They're the biggest

advertisers. They're the biggest donators to political campaigns.

>> You're only talking about one failed exchange, >> right? But the price has gone down

>> right? But the price has gone down during all of this with all of this promotion, all of this hype. It's gone

down. And if Bitcoin has not been able to go up in four years, if it's lost 40% of its value in real terms, despite all of this, why is it going to why would it

go up in the future? It seems to me >> Bitcoin four years ago was much lower value though, >> huh?

>> Bitco Bitcoin four years ago was much lower value just because >> No, it's it's down. I just 40% gold. But

if you're saying it's digital gold, then that's the best way to price it.

>> Well, no. If you compare two assets, you can pick any random time period. One

asset.

>> How about random? I'm just picking the high from four years ago. But my point is, you had all of this hype. Why isn't

Bitcoin, look, you have people Michael Sailor is coming out here. Bitcoin is

going to be $10 million of Bitcoin. All

right. Well, why isn't it there now? Why

why I mean, if it's if it's really that valuable, the market would would would adjust the price now. You can't just buy it. I mean, he acts like you just buy

it. I mean, he acts like you just buy Bitcoin and you're guaranteed to make all this money. It's a sure thing. Go

out, mortgage your house, bet the farm, borrow against your business, put everything you have because he said it's a sure thing. Well, if it was a sure thing, the price would already be there.

>> Uh, well, the price takes time to be there. Like even if you say like gold

there. Like even if you say like gold will be worth more later, doesn't mean that you will be worth.

>> No, I Well, I just think the dollar will be worth less, the euro will be worth less at the end. They keep printing them. We agree on all of that,

them. We agree on all of that, >> right? But it does. But Bitcoin is

>> right? But it does. But Bitcoin is irrelevant for that. Bitcoin's value is determined solely by the number of people who want to buy it versus the

people who want to sell it because it there's no user for it. Like there's

there's like like with gold, there is real demand. There are people who need

real demand. There are people who need to buy gold and will always buy gold.

And if the price of gold goes down, they're going to buy more if it go. But

in in in in Bitcoin, nobody needs it.

But people want it, but they want it because they think the price is going to go up. But the minute they stop

go up. But the minute they stop believing the price is going to go up, then there's no reason to have it.

>> Let's talk about the future a little bit more. The future generation, the younger

more. The future generation, the younger kids.

>> Yes.

>> Do you think they will like Bitcoin more or gold more?

>> Well, they're going to like gold more because their friends will have lost a lot of money in Bitcoin, you know. And

there there's there's there's one really good thing about young people.

>> How about your son? But he's already sold his. But

sold his. But but but you know the the good thing about losing a lot of money in Bitcoin when you're young and and is that when

you're young and you lose your money, you have a whole lifetime to earn it back. And you have a lifetime to benefit

back. And you have a lifetime to benefit from the experience of losing that money. So, the good news for all the

money. So, the good news for all the young people that are going to get wiped out in Bitcoin is that it will prevent you from losing more money in the future, right? Because when you're

future, right? Because when you're young, you don't have a lot of money to lose and but as you get older and you accumulate more, that's when it's more important not to lose your money. And

so, this is a valuable lesson.

>> So, Bitcoin went from no value in 20 2010 uh to 50 cents for the first piece of transaction to now 100,000. Well,

90,000 right now. Yeah. uh you know how how many people lost money on Bitcoin?

How many people made money on Bitcoin?

>> Well, how many of the people who have their hands up have actually sold their Bitcoin and realized those gains?

>> A few. A few.

>> Not that many. But look,

>> again, this is a different crowd, right?

Obviously. Yes.

>> But there's there's no disputing that the people who bought Bitcoin >> back then have made a tremendous amount of money. I mean, I know a lot of these

of money. I mean, I know a lot of these people who have made hundreds of millions billions.

>> So, you know them?

>> Yes. A lot of them are my neighbors, you know, because but the reason they're they can afford to live in my neighborhood is because they sold a lot of Bitcoin. That's how come they could

of Bitcoin. That's how come they could they could afford it. But the money that they made, >> a lot of people made a lot of money on Bitcoin that you know, >> yes, they got in early.

>> Okay.

>> The people who bought it over the last couple years haven't made any money.

These are the people who are losing the money that enabled the early buyers to make money. The people who are making

make money. The people who are making money are cashing out. All Bitcoin does is enable a transfer of wealth from the people who buy Bitcoin to the people who

sell it. Right? There's no when you when

sell it. Right? There's no when you when Bitcoin is created, there's no real wealth. We have like 20 million Bitcoin

wealth. We have like 20 million Bitcoin now that we didn't have 15 years ago. We

But that's we're no better off because those Bitcoin exist. They don't actually do anything. But what has happened is

do anything. But what has happened is some people have been enriched at the expense of other people. Now, the people who have lost a lot of money in Bitcoin don't even realize they've lost it yet

because they still have the Bitcoin and the Bitcoin still has a 90, you know, $93,000 price or whatever it is right now. And so, they don't realize they've

now. And so, they don't realize they've lost the money. But if they try to get out, that's when they're going to realize it's lost because if a number if a large percentage of people who own Bitcoin want to get out of it, there is

no market for it. The market will implode. Uh let me share let me share a

implode. Uh let me share let me share a a a quick story I shared earlier today.

Um when I was going through the US troubles, I got a letter of support, right? So one one of our uh users from

right? So one one of our uh users from Africa writes me and she says he says um before crypto before Bitcoin it takes him three days to pay a bill. He had to

walk from his village to a place, pay it and walk back. So three three days a month he had to pay the bill. Uh that

that's the amount of time it takes for him to do that. um after crypto after Binance he has access to crypto and now paying the bill is three minutes and

because of that he accumulated over time $50 $100 a $300 $1,000 $1,000 in some really poor country in Africa it's a lot

of money for for that so that improves people's materially improved his life >> yeah I mean that there is some value there but you don't need Bitcoin you can use you can use a stable coin you can

use tokenized gold you know So yeah, you can use a stable coin but stable you still you still need to use the blockchain technology and the best use case for blockchain technology today the the the best app is still bitcoin right

so bitcoin is the largest market cap uh uh uh coin and u but you're talking about the blockchain technology the technology is promoted with bitcoin plus other cryptocurrencies you mentioned a

point earlier which I want to touch up on just because anyone can issue a token doesn't mean those tokens have value but bitcoin is very different bitcoin is already we already have a large community supporting it some of the

major cryptocurrencies of course unbiased um are also closer to to to that category right so uh just because you issue something uh does not create value but when people use it it has

value again >> so Bitcoin is used by this guy in Africa uh in many other places so and the use case is increasing it's not decreasing this is not it's not it's not it's not just one thing that doesn't change

anymore it's a technology that keeps >> I I don't see in fact I remember when Bitcoin first spiked up to $1,000 in in was it 20

>> and you were against it?

>> Of course. Yes. Although at the time I look at the time I thought the price could go up. I just thought that it was obviously people were buying it and I thought that the bubble could get bigger before it popped. But you know

fundamentally you know nothing has changed about Bitcoin. But the point I'm making is back then, well, back then I remember a lot of stores I there were a lot of stories where all these companies

were coming out, oh, we accept Bitcoin, we accept Bitcoin, we accept Bitcoin.

And the reason that the stores were doing this is because all of a sudden people with Bitcoin had money because now the Bitcoin was worth something. And

so merchants were trying to appeal to the the wealth of the the crypto people by saying, "Hey, you can spend your Bitcoin here. You can spend your Bitcoin

Bitcoin here. You can spend your Bitcoin here." There's actually less of that

here." There's actually less of that now. I mean, I I I think the whole idea

now. I mean, I I I think the whole idea of using Bitcoin as a currency, it's even less popular now than it was back then. And in fact, people have even

then. And in fact, people have even acknowledged that, you know, it doesn't work very well as a currency. There are

other cryptos that are much better.

That's when they reinvented it as digital gold because it didn't work as a digital currency. So, they said, "Okay,

digital currency. So, they said, "Okay, well, it's digital gold." Well, it's not digital gold either because it's nothing like gold, right? It's not, you know, a a I can't, you know, make a picture of a

hamburger and then say I have digital food, you know, it's just a it's just an image of a hamburger. And you know, if you if you if you eat a diet of digital food, you're going to starve to death.

>> Let me check in the crowd. Who has a Binance card >> on them? I I don't have one with me. Can

you can you volunteer?

>> Um, just have a token, right? BNB is a is a token.

>> No, no, no. The Binance card, uh, which is Binance is a token, >> which is a Visa card. Yeah. Yeah. if if

you could >> can somebody bring help bring that. Um

so when you mentioned that uh crypto is not used for payments and you see much less um I actually want to show you something which is uh no u yeah thank you.

>> Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. You see

you see this thing >> by Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well you're but basically what you're saying is you can use this >> Yeah. And it you're it will sell your

>> Yeah. And it you're it will sell your Bitcoin and and and pay a merchant in dollars.

>> Absolutely. It works really well. Yeah.

And that Yeah, that's exactly what I'm going to do with gold. Right. But

>> using the blockchain, right?

>> Doesn't even need to use the blockchain when you're use when I'm using uh a debit card or credit debit card. But

>> so but but >> but what what you're doing is you're you're you're selling your Bitcoin and then you're paying with currency just like I I have a brokerage account and I

can issue you a debit card against your brokerage account and now you could use that, >> you know, but but you're not using Bitcoin as money. You're selling Bitcoin to get money and then you're using the

money to buy goods and services, not the Bitcoin. That just that card just ties

Bitcoin. That just that card just ties you in. But what what I want to do with

you in. But what what I want to do with gold, I don't want people ultimately to sell their gold and pay cash. I'd like

to see the gold actually change hands from buyer to seller so that the entire transaction stays in gold the whole time. We don't need to convert the gold

time. We don't need to convert the gold into fiat. But you're converting your

into fiat. But you're converting your Bitcoin to fiat in order to use it.

>> How many people use gold as payment today?

>> No, probably hardly anybody uses it as payment.

>> More or less than this.

>> But you're not using Bitcoin there either. the Bitcoin gets sold. If you

either. the Bitcoin gets sold. If you

use that card, the the whoever is um on the receiving end of the transaction does not get any of your Bitcoin. All

they get is dollars.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's actually two halves. So, we're we're breaking this

halves. So, we're we're breaking this process into two halves, right? So, um

Bitcoin payments, crypto payments has historically had this problem where the merchants don't want to accept crypto uh uh or or may or may not want to accept it. Without the merchants accepting it,

it. Without the merchants accepting it, then the users couldn't pay. But this

solves it because we are now as intermediaries. The from the user

intermediaries. The from the user perspective, he just swipes his card and the crypto gets deducted. He doesn't

care about the conversion into crypto currencies and pay it. The merchant gets fiat currencies, right? Or whatever they choose to get. And we uh in the middle handle the conversion. So we solve both sides of the problem.

>> Yeah. I but I want to do that same thing with gold. And but the thing is this. I

with gold. And but the thing is this. I

think eventually when when inflation is a lot more pernitious in the developed world, I believe a lot of merchants will actually prefer to receive gold because I think that you >> sure about that?

>> Yes. Because what's going to happen is >> how many of them accept it today?

>> They're they're they don't have the ability to accept it. They don't even it's not even an option. But let let's say you're a merchant, right? And

inflation is not, you know, 2% a year.

It's two Let me finish the point. Let's

say inflation is 2% a week, right? And

so I I I I have inventory that I'm selling, but I sell my inventory and now when I have to reby it, it costs a lot more because between the time I sold it

and the time I restock, the prices have gone up. But if I can sell my

gone up. But if I can sell my merchandise and get paid in gold, now I can use my gold to restock and the prices wouldn't have gone up in terms of gold.

>> The gold the gold price dropping the last couple weeks, right? I mean it went to a high but then it dropped in the last couple weeks.

>> So yeah there you know there are periods of time where gold volatility spikes a bit but generally it's not that volatile >> at 10% for some merchants like some merchants margins are 10%. Right.

>> Oh yeah. Well that's well I know and Bitcoin can move 10% in a day you know.

You know >> but my point is there's a few million of this cards out there. There's a few million users on using Binance card.

>> Yeah. And maybe you maybe I could use you to do my gold cards.

>> We'll be happy to >> because I'm talking to banks. I got to see who would be the best issuer >> for I'm for Bitcoin. I'm not against gold, but I'm just saying that Bitcoin is a better version of gold. But my

point is you said that people don't use it for payments, but people use it silently. That

silently. That >> but that's not using it for payments.

That's >> But from the user perspective, they are using it for payments. Now the user doesn't have to worry about selling Bitcoin into cash, converting the currency and then charging that, >> right? But I can do that same thing

>> right? But I can do that same thing again with gold or anything else. I can

do it with my stock portfolio. I mean, I can I I have customers that have brokerage accounts and I can give them a debit card where every time they use it, you know, it's it margins their

brokerage account and we can sell then we can sell some of their stocks.

>> That's great. But my point is people already using crypto for payments.

>> No, they're not using crypto. They're

using crypto as collateral so that they can sell it to get the currency that they use to make the payment. There's a

difference there. It's not being used uh to make a payment. You're you're

liquidating your Bitcoin and then you're buying something with the proceeds.

>> Again, Peter, you you you're making the definition that in from the for the user for payments that includes the part that we handle for them.

>> Yes.

>> Right. From the user perspective, he swer card, he gets a good his understand. Right. Right.

understand. Right. Right.

>> Right. So,

>> but there is a difference there. But of

course, you know, Bitcoin can collapse in price and now, you know, now it's going to be a big problem for people who are use who are planning on buying stuff with their Bitcoin and now the Bitcoin doesn't buy very much because when they go to sell it, they're not going to get

that much fiat.

>> I think most people in this room will not have that problem because they they probably pretty much all have enough crypto to they have enough crypto.

>> Well, they have enough at $93,000. I

mean, what if it's $9,000? I mean, you know, the price could be a lot lower.

You don't know what it's going to be.

>> I mean, all prices fluctuate. Also even

even if we talk about uh fiat currencies price fluctuates right so >> against each other right they don't they yeah there's >> against each other against real purchasing power

>> right so against purchasing power uh you know every price fluctuate so one thing is many people think about stable I think stable coin is a complete misnomer there's nothing stable in this world everything fluctuates fluctuates against everything

>> well it's stable against itself so a dollar stable coin is stable against the dollar but the dollar has no stability whatsoever.

>> But that's why to me everything that you could do with Bitcoin I can do with gold. And so rather than have a token

gold. And so rather than have a token backed by nothing, why not have a token backed by something? Why I mean why prefer a fiat cryptocurrency when you can have legit a real one when you can have one that's backed by gold?

>> You know, it's actually the reverse.

What whatever you can do with gold and fiat, we can do in Bitcoin.

>> No, you can't because you can't store value with Bitcoin.

>> Bitcoin has been a tremendous store of value.

>> No, it hasn't. It's it's been a great speculative asset that has appreciated Bitcoin's price has gone up >> the last 15 years for for it entire existence, >> right? But that first of all, that's not

>> right? But that first of all, that's not a lot of time in in in the scheme of things. But Bitcoin has price. I don't I

things. But Bitcoin has price. I don't I don't dispute that there is a price for Bitcoin. But price and value are two

Bitcoin. But price and value are two completely different things. And you

cannot you cannot store a price. Bitcoin

has a price today. I don't know what the price is going to be tomorrow. But it

has no value today and it's going to have no value tomorrow. But that doesn't stop people from buying it. But the

value that most people place in Bitcoin is that they think they're going to get rich if they buy it. They think if I buy this Bitcoin and I just hold on to it and ride out all the volatility, I'm

going to be rich. So that's what people are buying. They're buying that lottery

are buying. They're buying that lottery ticket that's going to pay off. And when

people don't want to buy that anymore, when people stop believing in this fantasy that Bitcoin is going to the moon, then you know there's not going to be any demand for it anymore.

>> You're looking at that purely from a speculators perspective.

>> Well, that's who buys Bitcoin by and large. Now look, most of the people in

large. Now look, most of the people in this room maybe are diehard Bitcoin maxis that actually believe all this nonsense. Fine. But the vast majority of

nonsense. Fine. But the vast majority of people buying, who do you think is buying Bitcoin? How many people in the

buying Bitcoin? How many people in the audience are developing something in the Bitcoin ecosystem? Developers, you know,

Bitcoin ecosystem? Developers, you know, coders project >> not a lot, but no, there there's quite a few developers here, right? So, not

everybody's a speculator. So,

speculators. Yes.

>> No, this room this is this is a a biased sample.

>> Of course, if you exist, >> right? Yes. But this is a tiny part of

>> right? Yes. But this is a tiny part of what's driving Bitcoin at this point. If

you look at who is buying the Bitcoin ETFs, right, that have been the lion share of the buying before these corporate treasury companies, these are

not, you know, true believers. They are

just buying it because it's going up.

They're they're they're they're seeing all the hype and they're being told, you got to buy this. It's the digital. It's

going to go up. It's the new thing. And

so people are buying it in their stock portfolios. They don't care about any of

portfolios. They don't care about any of the qualities that you talk about that Bitcoin has. They don't care about any

Bitcoin has. They don't care about any of that. They don't self-custody it.

of that. They don't self-custody it.

They're buying it in their brokerage account. It's a symbol and it they're

account. It's a symbol and it they're looking at it to go up. And when it stops going up and it starts going down, they're just going to sell. They're just

going to move on and take their chips and and and and put them in in someplace else.

>> Peter, what you described exists in stock markets in traditional fiat markets as well. So there's speculators in every market and then there's builders who are building the ecosystem who are building utility value. The

speculators are always loud if that's why NASDAQ is exists, right? So all the guys were buying Bitcoin ETFs, they already bought stocks, they already have stock ETFs, uh currency ETFs, etc. So

that exists in traditional markets as well. Yeah. Just having them doesn't

well. Yeah. Just having them doesn't mean that Bitcoin has no value.

>> No. Well, yes. Just because there's speculators in the stock market too doesn't mean that that legitimizes Bitcoin because there are speculators.

Look, when when when you're speculating, >> it's reverse. Just having speculators does not dele delegitimize.

>> But when when I'm when I'm speculating on a stock, at least in theory, I'm speculating on a business and I'm making a bet that that business becomes more

valuable in the future than it is today because it has more sales, it has more earnings, it pays a higher dividend. So,

I'm betting on the growth of a business.

>> Just look at this company got Binance growing.

>> Well, Binance is not big. Binance is

again Binance is a great business right now, right? You're the casino. You the

now, right? You're the casino. You the

house wins, right? No, we're not gambling.

>> We are we are a licensed traditional uh we are licensed financial institution in 30 something countries now.

>> All right. Well, okay. Apart from that, but I'm talking about the people that are just trading trading trading uh Bitcoin on on the platform. But I now I I just forgot what I was talking about

um before you interrupted. What what was the point that I was about to make? I

just don't even remember.

>> We were talking about speculators.

>> Oh, yeah. Right? So, you're speculating on a company becoming more valuable.

When I buy Bitcoin, Bitcoin is not going to generate more income in the future than it does now because it generates no income now. Bitcoin is not a income

income now. Bitcoin is not a income producing asset. When I'm speculating on

producing asset. When I'm speculating on Bitcoin, all I'm doing is betting that somebody in the future is going to pay a higher price than I did. I'm just

betting that there's going to be more demand for Bitcoin uh in the future than there is now and that the price is going to be higher. So it's a pure speculation

on on price without any other factor and and and so Bitcoin is is far more speculative >> in nature than than than what people are doing in the stock market or in the real

estate market. Now you know you could

estate market. Now you know you could most people when you're buying a stock >> I'm I'm buying a business now that generates income that pays dividends.

Not all stocks are simply you know gambling on the growth of a business that may or may not come. But Bitcoin is 100% speculation uh in that I'm buying it solely because I believe that

somebody will pay a higher price. And

the only reason that that person is going to buy it is because they believe that the next person is going to pay a higher price for the exact same thing even though it hasn't changed at all.

>> But we just established that the speculators only small part of the ecosystem. Even though they're very

ecosystem. Even though they're very loud, they trade a lot. But we just we just discussed this point, right?

>> But that's that's that's what's driving.

saying that this small section of speculators represent all of crypto, all of all of Bitcoin. That's not true, right?

>> Well, that's what drove the price up to 90,000 without all those where do you think Bitcoin's price would be right now if all this speculative money hadn't

poured in uh you know to all these ETFs and you know all these Bitcoin treasury companies that have been buying up Bitcoin. Without all that speculative

Bitcoin. Without all that speculative money, where do you think the price would be?

>> I don't think we I don't think I can I can convince you on this. But again you you are taking a small sample of the population >> small >> small big but you're taking a portion of it and sort of overgeneralizing that to

the entire industry. If it's only speculators the price wouldn't be there.

There will always be some uh fundamental holders that supports the price.

>> Well it's mostly I would say over those past four years right where Bitcoin is down by 40% against gold. I would say that at least half of the people who own Bitcoin today bought it over the last

four years.

>> Uh I'm not sure. Um yeah, I'm not too sure.

>> And probably and and probably more than half the value half the market cap was purchased in in in these last four years.

>> Well, every peak the the the more value gets purchased at a later stage. But u

people are and and so there's a lot of people now >> in terms of number of people. I'm not

too sure because uh in this cycle there's a lot of ETF as you as you said there's a lot >> right. Well, I'm talking well that

>> right. Well, I'm talking well that includes all the individual shareholders in these ETFs, right? They're, you know, they they they own Bitcoin through through these ETFs.

>> And so, they've come in recently. Uh

they don't have these big gains that people have that that that came in a long time ago.

>> You can't have big gains just you you buy any asset, you can't expect big gains like you know.

>> Yes, they are. What do you of course the people that bought Bitcoin expected big gains. They were told I mean go back to

gains. They were told I mean go back to the beginning of the year. What were all the Look, Bitcoin is lower now than it was January 1st. But if you go back if you go back >> higher than November last year.

>> Well, yeah, because it sold off before then. But if you go back to all the

then. But if you go back to all the forecasts that were made by guys like Sailor Beginning of this year, where was everybody saying Bitcoin was going to be by the end of the year? I mean, nobody

said lower. It was 200,000, 250,000.

said lower. It was 200,000, 250,000.

There were all these, you know, pie in the sky forecasts. So people were buying Bitcoin expecting to go to the moon.

They weren't expecting to to lose money which is what which is happening.

>> But there there's a few guys who make forecasts. I usually don't make

forecasts. I usually don't make forecasts. U but uh but the price goes

forecasts. U but uh but the price goes up down right. So people invest they need to take the risk or they need to understand the >> Well, I think a lot of the people >> Same thing with gold. Same thing with stock markets, right?

>> Well, but you haven't had a big influx of in of private investors in gold.

Look, I've I've been in the gold business. I've had shift gold.

business. I've had shift gold.

2010. Why is that? And there has been influx in crypto, but there hasn't been in gold.

>> Because Yeah. Because gold doesn't have a sexy get-rich quick story to it.

People >> But you just said gold will go go higher quicker.

>> Yeah. Well, gold, you know, gold has done a lot better than Bitcoin the last couple years, last four years. But most

people have bought Bitcoin. They haven't

bought gold. But central banks are buying gold. I mean, they know what

buying gold. I mean, they know what they're doing. They're buying gold.

they're doing. They're buying gold.

They're not they're not buying Bitcoin.

But eventually I think private investors will start buying more gold. Uh and I think the air coming out of the crypto bubble uh will help move that process

along. In fact, I think one of the

along. In fact, I think one of the reasons that Bitcoin was able to do so well um you know from when it started until you know recently was because gold

went sideways for about 12 13 years. Uh

you know gold went from >> and that's exactly the time when Bitcoin started.

>> Yes. Well, well, because gold gold went from $300 an ounce, under $300 an ounce in 1999, 2000, and it went up to 1900 in

2011, right? And and so had a big gain

2011, right? And and so had a big gain and and it attracted some money as a result of those huge returns, but then it just, you know, kind of went sideways and Bitcoin comes on the scene and it

comes out of nowhere and it's going way up and it's being sold, hey, this is digital gold. This is better than gold.

digital gold. This is better than gold.

This is gold 2.0. And as long as gold wasn't performing, >> uh, that created an opportunity for Bitcoin to kind of steal some of its thunder and get money out of gold, out

of gold stocks, into crypto, into crypto stocks. But now that gold has broken out

stocks. But now that gold has broken out of that consolidation, gold has now doubled in the last two years, and silver now has caught up, and now silver's at record highs. Silver's

almost $60 an ounce. So, it's broken through its $50 double top. So now we're in another stage of precious metals bull market where gold and silver are not

going sideways. They should continue to

going sideways. They should continue to go up uh year after year for many many years to come. And so in that environment I think it's very difficult for Bitcoin to compete because now the

people who have gold have no reason to sell it to buy Bitcoin. And I think people who made the mistake of selling their Bitcoin a few years ago and buying gold are going to regret that and they're going to try to reverse that

trade. They're going to try to sell

trade. They're going to try to sell their Bitcoin and get back into gold, but that's going to be big problem because there's no buyers for the Bitcoin and so I think the price will collapse.

>> All right. So, I think we can agree to disagree on that note. Um, I do hope I do hope go to be successful. I do hope you digitize gold to be successful.

>> Maybe we can work together on that project.

>> Absolutely.

>> And I want to get my token listed on traded on Binance.

>> Uh, absolutely. So, we welcome you to to the dig to the blockchain digital world and uh I of course believe completely differently that I think I think gold will do well uh but I think uh Bitcoin will do even better. Um that's my view

but >> I don't think it will be able to compete with gold especially when it's you know >> we'll find out next year.

>> Yeah it will >> but lastly thank you Peter for coming over and I wish you all the success in digitizing gold.

>> All right. Well my pleasure. All right.

Thank you.

>> Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you guys.