BTS S01E011 ATIKH BANA - CEO, ACCTUAL

I think that in terms of what that looks like today and and the way we think about taste, it's looking like linear.

It's it's looking like stripe. It's it's

looking like things that already exist.

To me, that's not taste. If we want to really think about taste, I think we should lean into the things that we're not looking at.

>> I think a lot of people are saying designers should become founders. How do

you think that is possible?

>> I think designers have such a unique skill set in that the way we problem solve, the way that we work through things, the way that we iterate, way that we think. And I think that that's so invaluable and now more than ever

it's become so easy to build things right like you can vibe code your way through something. I mean ideas are

through something. I mean ideas are cheap and so because it's easier to build things now you could produce a lot of ideas and I think that's really unique who's historically been building it's been engineers and I think that

we're finally having a moment where people are recognizing the power and the excellence of design in product and I think it's a good time to capitalize on that sort of like a YC perspective like I think they had like a call for

startups one of them was like design founders and I'm like >> we're really having our moment like this is so interesting and so it's like narratively we we're we're hot. From a

product perspective, we're capable and from a execution perspective, it's never been easier to move as fast as you can.

And so I think if you can error on that velocity that is required to build things and build companies and and be able to like learn fast, fail fast, and apply the magic that is you being a

designer to that, I think really great things can happen more than ever before.

What are the top three things potential design founders should be aware of?

>> One is working with the least resource as possible and trying to get as far as you can. What is it that you can do on

you can. What is it that you can do on your own now end to end? Start there and and really try to like make that get to the magic moment just on your own. What

is your ad advice to people working in companies where they don't feel like design is valued as much? I asked this question cuz you talk about showing impact.

>> Impact's going to be tough when people don't care. Before I was at Data Dog, I

don't care. Before I was at Data Dog, I worked at a startup where I was a sole designer and in a very very technical environment where no one cared about design, but there were a few people that did that had influence and it was almost like you had to make them become your

allies as well >> to bring you into things to make your work important. Yeah. I heard a podcast

work important. Yeah. I heard a podcast recently with a director that used to work in design at Apple and he said that like Tim Cook used to talk about the concept of the Apple car wash like when

you come into Apple it was almost like you have to like forget everything that you've known about how you've worked previous places and you're going to learn how to do everything again at Apple and then once you leave you have to the same thing because you're never

going to work in an environment like Apple again. That's what design is,

Apple again. That's what design is, right? It's like it's it's a completely

right? It's like it's it's a completely different way of like operating, building, thinking, sweating details, caring about things that you know other people would say, why are you spending that much time on that?

>> The design world today loves to talk about taste, the perfect mood board, the Apple aesthetic, the stripe look. But

today's guest says maybe we've got it wrong. that taste as we practice today

wrong. that taste as we practice today has become uniform and that sweating the details is far more important. Meet

Attic Banner, the co-founder and CEO of Actual, a financial operations platform helping businesses in 100 plus countries

pay and get paid how they want using stable coins or fiat without forcing anyone to change their existing processes. Before actual, he was a

processes. Before actual, he was a designer at Stripe and at Data Dog.

Always choosing the unsexy problems but designing them with the highest craft.

We start our conversation with his contrarian take. If taste is overrated,

contrarian take. If taste is overrated, what should we be chasing instead? Why

did you agree to come behind the ship?

Yeah, I mean honestly it's uh I think I really appreciate what you're doing with regards to like talking with more design and design founders. Um I think

especially it's also refreshing to be in a space that's you know more representative of folks like us as opposed to I think who's usually the

voices of design and media um are often white.

Um but it's uh you know um >> but that that's not to say that some of the best designers are not coming from you know Africa and other places and so I used to work at Stripe and um

>> they I remember when they acquired a company called Payto Nigeria and like >> I was like everyone on this team is like better than the designers on stripe product you know it was like and like it's like people don't people don't know

them you know and so it's like I think that's what I appreciated most about the >> the format that you've created. But um

also then the network of people that you're bringing on and hopefully I'll be interesting is is maybe some of the other ones but but if not uh glad that I've been on at least.

>> No, I'm sure I'm sure. Fun story like um that day like the day I sent you that DM. I had been following you for a while

DM. I had been following you for a while actually. Um I've been one of the design

actually. Um I've been one of the design founders in my radar. And when I finally figured out the types of people I wanted to speak to in terms of like the format

for the podcast, I've been doing I've been trying to figure it out for a while. I hadn't fully defined it. A lot

while. I hadn't fully defined it. A lot

of people speak to founders when they want to do this sort of interviews or speak to like VCs like they don't really go into like the makers and builders of

the products, people that get their hands dirty. Um, so when I started to

hands dirty. Um, so when I started to articulate what who I wanted on and why, um, it was people like you that came to mind. So that night I sent about 10

mind. So that night I sent about 10 >> 10 DMs to like people like pitching them, oh, this is what I'm doing. Um,

this is why it's important some of the things that you've said.

>> You people know of Paystack. People can

hear of Paystack, but they don't know the people behind that. So the builders, the makers, they don't know their talent, but they've sort of interacted with their products. to their work you love but you don't know their names and

that's just unfortunate. Um so yeah that's that's the kind of just the whole vibe.

>> Yeah. And I hope Yeah. I hope we have fun just talking.

>> Yeah. Same. I'm looking forward to it.

>> You said that taste and the way that we use it today is overrated. So the way that industry is saying um like taste

like is is um has has put taste up up and forward. Um it seems like design

and forward. Um it seems like design risks being uniform. So why have you come to form this opinion and what's inspired that?

>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that um like if we just look at sort of the origins of of taste um yeah I think that they can have forms of originality in

that they come from spaces that are different from you know where the taste is being created or or or you know coming to fruition where it's like um sometimes it's like kind of cultural

upbringings or certain you know aesthetic things in architecture nature you know whatever else like everything kind of roots back into into much more

physical forms and um know things that uh feel um kind of natural or or um you know feel intuitive in a lot of ways.

Like I think the Nest is sort of like a good example of that. Like it took this form factor of like the original kind of you know thermometer and and um temperature uh device and and sort of brought it back

>> in a more modern format. But um it was also original in the sense that everything else looked so much more like something else. Um and and then they

something else. Um and and then they kind of just like took a step back and and looked at other spaces. But um I think that in terms of what that looks like today and and the way we think

about taste in product design and in UI and and UX, it's like >> it's looking like linear. It's it's

looking like Stripe. It's it's looking like things that already exist. And I

think to me that's not taste as much as that is kind of um familiarity and and and and and kind of um consistency

um which I think has its place in design and is an important heristic. But if we want to really think about taste, I think we should lean into the things that we're not looking at. And I think the people that do that the best um are

usually the ones end up feeling like they have taste. Um, but I don't think it's fair to like associate taste with, you know, how pixel perfect or, you

know, how great that gradient matches the one that's on, you know, so and so's website. Um, I think that the emulation

website. Um, I think that the emulation speaks more to like your ability to like work well with craft and in Figma than it does like actually encompassing

taste.

>> Yeah. So you you also mentioned just like when how you see taste in in like your dayto day in your daytoday right so you live in you live in New York um

there's a lot of style there's a lot of fashion in the area just culturally how does that influence you as a designer

>> yeah for sure I think what's interesting is like how so much of you know fashion is also very cyclical and like yeah I remember, now that I'm a little older,

right, I remember like the 2000s and what fashion looked like then. And there

was a point in time in New York where I noticed people were like dressing more like the 2000s and like the baggier jeans were coming back and you know the specific shoes and the so on and so

forth. But but it almost was kind of

forth. But but it almost was kind of like people were always like searching for this like nostalgic thing and and I think that that's cool, but um and I always kind of was like why why would I go back to the thing that I you know

used to used to wear or whatever, but I think at the same time you know you start to like see elements of that woven into like more modern things as well.

And I think that it's really cool to be able to like draw on some of the fashion like inspiration in that sense. Um, I

think that there's also just a ton of like architecture and um, you know, smells and like I think that New York is just so vast in so many ways of like you're just exposed to like you can walk

for 10 minutes and and and be visually stimulated in so many different ways.

Um, that maybe you don't even realize have some kind of, you know, subconscious effect on how you may perceive or think about a design. Um,

but I think that's that's also really really cool. Um, and I don't think that

really cool. Um, and I don't think that New York is the only place that can have that. I think in fact more places around

that. I think in fact more places around the world would be better than than New York because New York is just an amalgamation of all the melting pots of of of the world

>> every everywhere else. Mhm.

>> Yeah. Exactly. So, um, yeah, >> that's very very interesting. When I I did I did some digging and I found your

medium. Don't be scared. I found your

medium. Don't be scared. I found your Medium um page. Basically, I was looking at your profile. I was like, "Oh, you have a lot of hair compared to like who

I see now." So, that's like a really old picture, like some years before. Um, and

I see that you described yourself as a designer, video producer, I think photographer and podcaster. Yes. So,

which was really interesting. A lot of people know you as a designer. You've

worked at Stripe, you worked at Data Dog, and right now you're the CEO co-founder at Actual. Um so who is a

tick banner of today like that the world don't know about who who who are who are you? How would you describe yourself?

you? How would you describe yourself?

>> Oh that's a that's a that's a deep one.

Um I guess fundamentally I I think of myself in in a few different pillars. I

mean I'm first I'm I'm I'm a Somali my family's from from Somalia. So that's

a real core kind of piece to my identity. I'm I'm Muslim. Um, that's my

identity. I'm I'm Muslim. Um, that's my faith. Uh, which roots a lot of my

faith. Uh, which roots a lot of my decision- making and just way of living.

Um, >> I'm a husband, uh, which kind of roots my just day-to-day living and and kind of my purpose and and, uh, how I kind of

operate and and what I do and why in some senses. Um, I'm a son. I'm I'm a

some senses. Um, I'm a son. I'm I'm a father uh, most recently. Um, and so I think those are just kind of like real key pieces. Thanks so much to to my

key pieces. Thanks so much to to my identity as well. Um but yeah, I mean and in terms of you know how I how I spend my time kind of outside of those

kind of foundational and really kind of key parts of my life. I yeah co-founder of actual um that I started with two of my closest friends um and excited that I

get to work on you know a problem that I feel that we have a strong sense of founder market fit for and are able to bring um you know a great sense of

product quality and experience to um something that you know feels very missing for for a lot of the world um and and getting to serve people that um you know are not just you

finance people in like the western world but it's you know a Ugandan you know coffee exporter or coffee uh exporter out of like Kenya or an aluminum

exporter out of like Nigeria or you know textiles exporter from India like I think that's so cool that that's the type of you know kind of ICP that that

is act that is for actual um that that we get to serve um dayto-day.

>> Yeah. So you have this personal connection with the vision and what you're doing now. Um how does that compare to what you what you did before which is like stripe and all the other

things.

How did you come to this realization that you were going to like when you were starting actual that you're going to be building for people that were more like you said like your

aunties and your uncles you could relate to.

>> Yeah for sure. To be honest, I feel like I've always thought of design as a means uh to like an end. I think that it's a good skill set to have to apply to

things that you care about um like programming um and other things. And um

I think that what I've gotten to do throughout my career is just refine that skill and that craft uh over time. And I

think I get to do that probably the fastest now working, you know, in this like startup environment. But um yeah, I think that it it's really helped shape

that ability for for me to build products um develop some taste in the process. Uh but but most importantly, I

process. Uh but but most importantly, I think um applied that now to something that means a little bit more to me. Um I

think that when we started actual, we um we originally were building something completely different. It was actually

completely different. It was actually like a a social investing platform. So

the idea was that you would invest alongside your >> like public >> friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

>> friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. Um but with crypto assets and um we did that for a little bit. We

stopped cuz we the market got really bearish and people didn't seem that interested in what we were doing.

>> It also seemed to have some like different like legal ramifications where people would deem um governments and SEC etc. D more product is like securities and we just didn't want to go down that like rabbit hole.

>> We also didn't feel like we were yeah we're consumer builders and so it was almost like if we could lean into something that we feel we knew a lot more about um could feel a lot more

confidence building and and going deeper in um what would that be? And so, um, I don't think we set out to to to to do this in in such a way where we're like, "Wow, we can actually serve people that,

yeah, look like my my aunts and uncles and cousins." Um, but just,

and cousins." Um, but just, >> hey, there's something that we did in this world of like traditional fiat currencies that maybe could also apply in crypto and it seems like we've stumbled upon something much larger. Um,

which is really exciting.

>> Yeah. So, did that change how you build like having this such a personal connection to to what you're doing right now? Does that mean that you're a lot

now? Does that mean that you're a lot more ruthless or like you're more patient? How does that tie into your

patient? How does that tie into your approach?

>> Yeah. Um, I guess it maybe I don't want to say it throws out kind of all of the textbook processes and ways of working out of the window, but you kind of have

to like bend what you know quite a bit, you know, like we >> you write someone on LinkedIn, you send them a calendarly link, you know, like people are not doing that in certain

places in the world, you know, you got to ask for their WhatsApp and you have to call them, you know, get on get on a call with them. Um, you know, And like even just the way that you like ask questions like you have to be very intentional about sort of the language

that you're using and and that you're not I don't know asking things that don't necessarily you know make the most sense or >> um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

And so um I think that's been that's been another like exercise as well where it's almost like you know you there's a cultural context and awareness and and and and even more empathy that you need

to have that maybe you aren't usually having. I think in in some other context

having. I think in in some other context of of building um but I think that also makes the opportunity more rewarding in the sense that when you do figure it out it's like wow like that actually worked.

Um and so yeah I don't know I guess like in a sense um it's almost like you're relearning how to design um and and and

and a lot of those frameworks and processes to sort of fit. Yeah.

Given that the user base is >> give me a scenario where where that happened and you had that moment to say aha this is this is different and I have

to think about these things differently.

>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Um I

remember some of the earliest like iterations um of our invoicing product we um we noticed that we were getting a lot of usage just kind of around the world like over a 100 countries like

really quickly. And um I remember we met

really quickly. And um I remember we met this guy in Nigeria named Shlean and he runs like this really big kind of

freelancer community and um we got connected with him through another guy um that had used actual and um you know we were like talking with him about how

UST is just so important in Nigeria and like how being able to like hold that is like a better hedge against the Nairo because it trades at a higher rate than

like the vanilla dollar and it's like whoa like that's that's a really interesting insight and um you know here we are kind of thinking about just like oh you use USDT but it's also like a

hedge you know and like I think that was like a really interesting like unlock in that moment but it's like oh well does everyone do every does everyone kind of want USDT and and then he's like no but when they hear about the benefits like

they actually go through the process of like figuring out like how to to get it and hold it and trade it and and so on and so forth. And so, um, it was interesting to see just like how you

could tie that back to something, um, so much more to like you getting to keep more of what you earn. Um, and and not having to jump through like some of these additional hoops that you normally

do to getting paid. Um and and and kind of that uncovering that through just some of these conversations with people that you know we weren't interfacing with regularly and and and kind of asking the right questions of like why

this thing is so important as opposed to just like go ahead and use it stable coins. How can we fix the invoicing

coins. How can we fix the invoicing product? It's like we dug into more of

product? It's like we dug into more of just like why are you using stable coins in the first place kind of thing.

>> Yeah. So how did you get in contact with the right people? Right. So you had to listen to people like Silman and other people like him um to figure out like

like you're going in direct directions and what what to do next. So how did you find the right people to speak to given like your own context, right? So you

live in New York, you're trying to do this thing. How do you work how do you

this thing. How do you work how do you work that out?

>> Yeah, for sure. I mean it's it's really really hard. Um, I think that there's a

really hard. Um, I think that there's a lot of and the world is just so vast and like there's so many directions that people can point you in that could be wrong, could be right. Um, and so I

think that we always try to like um anchor on like just breath in a lot of that early discovery and like how many more people can we talk to to try to like understand um this opportunity and

like I remember one of the earliest things we did once we met was like hey um can you just put out this thing that we're trying to do which the idea at the

time was like let people like pay you um with with fiat and then you receive USDT and like I remember getting a lot of traction and we were like, "Oh, can we put a type form on there so people could fill it out and like we could like

actually interview them?" Um, and like it was almost like our interesting way of filtering to try to like find people and like understand that painoint a little bit more. Then we did then we tried some surveys to try to gain a

sense of like volume and quantify that data a bit more as well. Um, but all in all, I think that um really trying to see how you can find people that almost become your your channel partners or

your distribution into certain markets to try to help you like reach more more of them. Well, you also still tried to

of them. Well, you also still tried to like find your own individual um folks to to to learn from as well. But it's

it's almost this world where design, research, discovery meets sales a little bit as well where you kind of have to like learn how to reach these audiences as well where it's like you

can't just go to like userinviews.com and say hey give me 10 people you know Nigeria that are you know transacting in stable coins like it's it's not going to

work you know.

>> Yeah. So there was a lot of footwork and sort of being in proximity with the people in the industry to get some

clarity in the beginning.

>> Yeah, 100%. And and I think that that was so so important and and I think that work can never stop either. Like I mean we we're continuing to do that right now

in places like India and in Kenya um Ghana and South Africa um Brazil you know Argentina like we're doing it everywhere because it just there's just

there's so much that we don't know.

>> Yeah. So there's a lot of curiosity to to drive you forth and you mentioned your co-founders and how you know how you decided to to work with them. I I

did some giving um one of them is called Isa and the other one Muhamad Momo I guess is the first name I can't pronounce so I don't want to mess it up

but yeah what convinced you to start with these two people?

>> Yeah for sure. I mean, I I think part of it was like a little bit of divine timing. We met at Stripe. So, Momo and I

timing. We met at Stripe. So, Momo and I um we didn't know that we actually like were both Somali and working at Stripe.

I I I saw on Clubhouse one day and his profile and it said that he was at Stripe and I was like, "This is interesting." So, I I ping him on Slack

interesting." So, I I ping him on Slack and um he's like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm Somali." And I'm like, "Wow, that's so

Somali." And I'm like, "Wow, that's so cool." Because I'd never in my career

cool." Because I'd never in my career ever worked with Somali persons. I just

thought that was interesting. And so

yeah, >> um and so >> well I think I saw that tweet >> more about you and I saw that Yeah.

Yeah.

>> That's right. That's right. Yeah. So

yeah, that whole story goes and just you know we we end up meeting in person and basically hang out the whole time he's in New York. He later invites us and Issa to hang out in the city and like we

just become really good friends and at some point are like let's let's spend our time doing more productive things and um started hacking on some stuff and

eventually landed on this.

>> Yeah. So it was just like the yeah divine intervention like let's just do this. You met at the right time and

this. You met at the right time and aligned at the right time as well.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And we all have complimentary like skill sets as well.

So like mom was like a sales guy, product guy and Isa is like technical software engineer and I'm a designer.

We're like this is perfect.

>> Makes sense.

>> Let's do something.

>> Dream team. Dream team. Were there any like wild debates in the beginning or like wild perods like when you guys are figuring out, okay, we want to do something more meaningful with our life.

This is our life's work. What are the things that came to mind popped up at the time?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we um we certainly were kind of like having to take some bets and like kind of imagine

a reality that felt very like far-fetched. Um like the idea of like

far-fetched. Um like the idea of like stable coins as a way to like do payments globally in 2021 2022 like it was like a big

question mark like why would you do that? Um, and so we certainly had a lot

that? Um, and so we certainly had a lot of debates of like, you know, is it is this too early? Like do we need to wait?

Um, you know, do we need to focus on another part of the problem? Um, do we need regulation first? Um, but I say that we uh just tried to lean in on just

customer conversation. So before we

customer conversation. So before we started actual, we actually did like over 200 like conversations with finance people that worked in crypto. Um, and

that kind of helped guide the pro the process a little bit. Um,

And that ultimately helped settle the debates or at least the question marks that we had around like whether or not we should pursue it.

>> Yeah. 200 is world. Um so that was between the three of you. Wow.

>> That's right.

>> Um and that's a lot that that's I guess that's the part a lot of people just like skip over just that discovery phase cuz there's a lot of hard work. um

people have a sense of what they think the user wants or what the market needs and they say okay this is what I have in mind and they just go ahead and do that um and then they probably have to

backtrack and do the research and do the discovery at the time like maybe in between before they sort of go ahead it's interesting

>> yeah so um I wanted us to do a quick instinct round is a game um no pressure but Just say I'm going to say a sentence. You're going to say the first

sentence. You're going to say the first thing that comes to your mind.

>> Okay.

>> You ready?

>> I'm ready.

>> Ready. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool.

Okay. So, designers should be >> empathetic.

>> Okay. You You There's a little bit of delay, but I'm going to take it. Um

Okay.

>> Oh, I see. You want You want instant.

Okay.

>> Instant. the first knockup streamline.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, AI will never replace >> design.

Okay. You should never raise money if >> you don't know why you're building what you're building.

>> Cool. Okay. So, um, growth is best done by >> founders organically.

>> That's a good one. That's a good one.

Um, yeah. So, that's that's the end of the round. There's no

the round. There's no >> Okay.

>> There's no right or wrong answers, but there just something to spice up the conversation. Just back to building

conversation. Just back to building actual when I first >> like stumble like found out about you and opened the website actual website

try to set up my account right from the you know copy that I saw um the value proposition copy get paid Sunday the other things around like product

showcase I was really impressed by just like the direction and how clear what what what you guys were trying to do is I think a lot of people especially just early days, they have a problem

articulating really clearly where they're going.

So, I can spend a ton of time on the website and I don't have a clear sense of what the product is and what I can get out of it as a user. So, what

inspired the direction and like product strategy for you guys?

>> Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think that one of the things we realized early on just in this world of like payments and crypto products um and etc is that

there's really this like breadth and depth like those are kind of the two avenues you can take when you're really like trying to like solve problems here.

It's like you look at some of these like providers that offer things that like oh we have cards, we have multicurrency accounts, we've got invoicing, we've got this, we've got that. And it almost dilutes the message or the value prop or

the problem framing um in that people are trying to look more like a wise or a revolute than they are like what they uniquely are trying to serve. It's like

again anytime the benchmark or the parallel is like trying to be something else or like something else, it's never going to be memorable in the user's mind and it's never really going to solve a

painoint at least as clearly as you what user is telling you. And so um you know we chose to focus in specifically on the invoicing process. And you know one of

invoicing process. And you know one of the biggest pain points in that is how is is is in the payment itself. And you

know whenever people do work what do they want is they want to get paid. And

and so that's why we really chose to like lean into that value proposition and and then obviously the question of like well how and that's through sending the most flexible invoice on the planet.

And so um I think we we really just tried to like hone in on something that we felt we could like own narratively but also could like strike a chord um and really resonate with the user base

um and quickly help them associate like what it is that we offer and and how and what problem it is that we solve. Um

whereas like you don't hear V actual and think multicurrency accounts or get a USD account or get a get a card, get a wallet. You think get paid and like

wallet. You think get paid and like that's a much better like frame and and solution to something you have as opposed to like Yeah.

>> Yeah. So why why did you decide to say or why did the team decide to say most flexible invoice and not like the most smartest? What other adjective there is

smartest? What other adjective there is to say?

For sure. For sure. I mean, we we almost shipped thoughtful. Um, but that almost

shipped thoughtful. Um, but that almost felt a little too airy. Um, but the reason why we chose to like >> Yeah. But what we liked about flexible

>> Yeah. But what we liked about flexible is that I think it probably what like helps us like articulate it most accurately because the way actual works

is that we allow you as the business sending an invoice to receive your payment to the specific destination that it is you want to receive it to. Whether

that's a specific wallet like your Binance account or MetaMask or Salana or Phantom or if it's a specific bank account like we never like force you to hold a balance with us. We always route

it directly where it is that you want it. But obviously like the other side of

it. But obviously like the other side of that is is your buyer able to pay in USDC or USDT? Is your buyer able to pay on that specific chain that you want? Is

your buyer able to pay um in your specific currency? Like can they send

specific currency? Like can they send you rupees? Can they send you naira? And

you rupees? Can they send you naira? And

in many cases that's not the ca like that's not possible. And so we enable the other side to have that same level of like flexibility as well. And so it's it's kind of why we use that term. It's

like the flexibility of you your client being able to pay and then the flexibility of you being able to receive um as well.

>> That's cool. That's cool. That's cool.

cuz I I think that question came to me when I was trying to describe it to myself like what what can I how how can I introduce my friend to to to actual

what would I say right so I started thinking I think one of the things that came to my mind was smartest so I was like I wonder why why why the team chose flexible but then this this what you

said now definitely makes sense um so um what are other things that you guys spent your time debating on >> um I mean one thing I think is just like

the state of stable coins and crypto and how much that matters or doesn't matter. I

think that you know we like hear from a lot of these like you know financial technology experts and you know people building in the crypto space that say

you know like stable coins are going to fade into the background. they're not

going to matter. Um, but then we have users who have a specific stable coin on a specific chain that they want to hold and spend. Um, and so I think that's

and spend. Um, and so I think that's something that we do debate and like you have a lot of this regulation that's now coming out like making the term have more of a positive

like connotation where like before it felt like crypto was what you think of when you think of a stable coin, but now it's almost like we've got a whole another narrative separate that has a

much more positive meaning to it. Um,

but I think that's one thing we debate.

It's like what happens, right? Like do

we does it fade into the background? Do

people not care about the stable coin?

Um, or do they? Um, I think that we kind of teeter totter, but it's going to be interesting to race to see like how that actually evolves.

>> Plays out. True, true, true.

>> So, I I saw something somewhere. Um, and

I'm going to read it out out loud. It's

some it's a it's something I saw in a design economics innovation journal. um

and is a quote by someone called Victor Papa one of the most notable designers in his era. So he says in the the world seems to have implicitly recognized the

value of design through its choices of products and services.

However, although numerous studies show the value of design for companies, out of the entire roster of Fortune 500

companies, only 10 to 20 have chief design officers. So that's roughly about

design officers. So that's roughly about 2 to 4%.

Right? So he says the full potential of design is yet to be recognized.

Perhaps the fault lies within the design profession itself because to say how many designers are capable of being a

seale executive at one of the world's largest companies perhaps the lack of senior execs is an indictment

is an indictment yes of our education.

>> Do you agree?

Oo, that's a good take. I don't know if I agree if the onus of why design isn't kind of respected or or held in that

same level of position lies on the designers or is a fault of the founders themselves not valuing it. I think that like

sometimes you have fe folks that will build something, you know, in a particular way, be very salesdriven, very productled, you know, so on and so forth and and maybe forget about design

and think that it's something that they can just like tack on later. Oh, we'll

improve the UI UX. Like the moment I hear a founder talk in those terms, I'm like, okay, yeah, they they don't care about design, nor do they value design.

Um, like I feel like even just diminishing it down to just UI UX or UX UI, it's like I can tell that this is not you don't understand what this is.

>> Um, and so I think that it has to just be something so innate in how the company like functions and and and operates. I I once I heard a podcast

operates. I I once I heard a podcast recently with a director that used to work in design at Apple and he said that like Tim Cook used to talk about the concept of the Apple car wash. Like when

you come into Apple it was almost like you have to like forget everything that you've known about how you've worked previous places and you're going to learn how to do everything again at Apple and then once you leave you have to do the same thing because you're

never going to work in an environment like Apple again.

>> Like that is crazy.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like going through a couch. I get I get Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It makes so much sense. And

it's almost like that's what design is, right? It's like it's it's a completely

right? It's like it's it's a completely different way of like operating, building, thinking, sweating details, caring about things that, you know, other people would say, why are you spending that much time on that? Um and

and what's the impact it has on the bottom line? Another thing I I love is

bottom line? Another thing I I love is uh Patrick Carlson, the founder of Stripe, talked about how if there was proof that design had no effect on the bottom line of the business, he would

still invest the same amount in it. And

like to me, that's that's what it is.

It's like caring so much about the product experience. So much so that even

product experience. So much so that even if there's no like direct impact, you just care so much about how your users experience the thing. Like that's that's

design DNA. That's caring about design.

design DNA. That's caring about design.

And if the people that are creating the thing don't think about design in that way, it'll never matter whether or not a design chief design officer or someone else is there.

>> Is there >> Yeah, >> that's that's interesting to be honest.

Um >> it's almost like if Amazon all of a sudden said we're going to care a lot about design, I don't know how much of a difference that's going to make on Amazon right now or or Google.

I mean it depends. I would say it depends well largely to an extent what you've said I agree with what you've said because when like for instance you

know company like Paystack that was acquired by Stripe and it was immediately clear why that happened and why why it needed to happen outside of

the outside of just like h where they were as a business in terms of just their bottom line. um the the amount of

market value market sharehold value that they had at the time. There was also there was also a merging of so in in some sense right so there was alignment

in terms of style in terms of um how to run a company the founders as well so they could relate on that level not just okay yeah your business is doing well in Africa let's just acquire you right it

wasn't as simple as I'm sure it wasn't as simple as that so yes so when you say when when because that is true um yes it makes sense to to things like that

um when that acquisition happened within Stripe, were there like you said there were things that things that you said, "Oh, like, oh, this is cool. I've never

met these people in my life and they're doing like fantastic work." Were there other things that you found surprising?

Um, I wouldn't say necessarily surprising, but I think it was almost like maybe inspiring or refreshing of

just like, wow, like I I really love some of these ways of thinking or ways of working. And um

of working. And um and also just the fact that like you could be you know a startup not sort of stripe scale but still have that same

level of craft and quality in what you do as well. It's like I think that's another thing. It's like sometimes

another thing. It's like sometimes people think that just because of the size or you know the the the the the life cycle or moment like stage of a company that they can't have that same

level of of intensity in design and craft and quality but they certainly can and like I think that that was a really good I think it was a really inspiring moment for me as well and seeing that PA

stack was like that. Um, and they had such a pretty robust like design function as well. And like um, it's almost like these things I I can't remember like specific examples, but just like like they really sweat the

details on I think it was like something like some like photography that they had on their website and I was like they actually did like a photo shoot just for this thing and it presents really well, but wow like they really went out of

their way to like do that. And it's like it's always like the things that are just a little extra that um I think really make the big difference. And in

the moment I bet there's people at companies that are like why are we doing that?

>> But in the out and then in the long run it's like I'm glad that we did you know.

>> Um >> right. Yeah. True. A lot of people too

>> right. Yeah. True. A lot of people too are talking about this idea of founder mode and you know ever since that um Brian Chesky interview um you know

that's actually when I first heard about the term but apparently um Paul Graham was the originator of that concept the

idea of founder mode um as a design founder what does that mean for you?

Yeah, for sure. I think that there is a lot of micro decisions that are made like with or without you at a company.

And I think founder mode is, you know, a little bit of this like choosing your battles, but choosing what you care about because you can't completely care about everything. But I think founder

about everything. But I think founder mode is almost like I used to care a lot about this thing and I'm going to still care a lot about this thing even though I'm not focused on that thing as much

anymore. Um or if there's something that

anymore. Um or if there's something that I feel very passionate about and its impact on the business or even just its impact on the vision and how the company

presents, I'm going to sweat that thing.

And um yeah, I think that that to me is like founder mode in a lot of ways. It's

like putting your head into places where >> you were like not usually putting your head into as much anymore. Um or doesn't

feel like it needs your input, but you're going to care anyways and you're going to make a comment about it or you're going to do something to change it.

>> Um I think to me that's like that's founder mode. Um

founder mode. Um >> that's core. Yeah. As a as a design founder like what has building a company opened your eyes to? what are things

that you found interesting?

>> Yeah, I think that as a design founder um among other founders and among other teammates that are not designers is that

I don't think design is still like it's not that I can just say like this thing is really important. We're going

to like put a lot of effort into like the design of XYZ like design still needs justification. Design still needs

needs justification. Design still needs convincing. design still needs

convincing. design still needs storytelling. Um, and like I don't think

storytelling. Um, and like I don't think that design gets to like operate like Steve Jobs, you know what I mean? It's

like I I don't think that just because I'm I designer, I get to say things and they just happen, you know? It's like I still need to >> present, convince, >> rally, justify, >> convince.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Like the same way that you do any but Exactly.

Exactly. like all of that is still >> still still exists even as a founder that is a designer. Um but I think that through like repeated attempts of doing

that and and building the trust in the team that like hey that decision actually had this impact. Um it starts to become more valued and that starts to become part of the company lore and the

company history and um the company identity in a lot of ways as well that we thought that way or that we approached problems this way or that we invested effort and um cared about

things in this way. Um

>> yeah.

So what is your ad advice to people working in companies where they don't feel like design is valued as much? Um

so you I asked this question because you talk about um showing impact.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um so kind of like where is designs like impact most felt or kind of

>> Yes. So the impact of certain design

>> Yes. So the impact of certain design decision or yes like when you talk about the impact you meant it in that sense.

So what is your advice to people >> that are working in teams in products where the where they design is not perceived as much as as much of a value?

>> What is your advice to people operating in that space designers that space?

>> For sure. For sure. I feel like for a really long time design needed to tie itself to business and business outcomes and like that was something that you're

taught is like hey show how design actually drives this important thing.

Um, but I think that now we've als we've almost kind of like flipped it a little bit where like design gets to just be what people feel and like how it it it

you know presents to to a user and and and you know how that in and of itself is like worth celebrating or worth caring about. But um I think to sort of

caring about. But um I think to sort of measure its impact um >> it's I think it's always going to feel like it needs to have some kind of like

quantifiable justification um to feel impact but I think the more it just sees positive feedback from either users

or online or you know you start to notice competitors doing things that are like what you have. It's like

>> copying you.

>> Yeah. Copying you. It's like I think there are so many like non non-trivial ways but almost like um just like not easily measurable ways to

like feel feel its impact. But I think at the end of the day like I think the impact maybe doesn't matter as much as just the care like like just to be in environments where

people care about it is more important than I think trying to find a way to make it feel its impact and and then if if in

environments where you are struggling to do that, you have to find the people who care. I when I before I was at data dog,

care. I when I before I was at data dog, I worked at a startup where I was a sole designer and in a very very technical environment where no one cared about design but there were a few people that

did that had influence and it was almost like you had to make them become your allies as well to bring you into things to make your work important. Yeah. Um

and and all that was it wasn't about impact but it was just about caring.

>> So I think the >> Yeah. impact's going to be tough and

>> Yeah. impact's going to be tough and people don't care.

>> Yeah. So bring your friends close closer. Bring your allies closer. Find

closer. Bring your allies closer. Find

your allies and bring them closer.

>> Great. Great.

>> All right. So um so just this idea of like design founding. I think a lot of people are saying designers should become founders. There should be more

become founders. There should be more design founders. And how do you think

design founders. And how do you think that is possible in this like age of AI?

What do you think people should start doing? Designers should start doing

doing? Designers should start doing >> for sure. Um, I think designers have such a unique skill set in that the way we problem solve, the way that we work

through things, the way that we iterate, um, way that we think. Um, I think that that's so invaluable. And I think now more than ever, it's it's really it's become so easy to build things, right?

Like you can vibe code your way through something. You can um I mean, ideas are

something. You can um I mean, ideas are cheap. And so

cheap. And so because it's easier to build things now, you could produce a lot of ideas um relatively quickly and cheaply. Um and I

think that's really unique. But at the same time, like who's historically been building, it's been engineers. And I

think that we're finally having a moment where people are recognizing the power and the you know, excellence of design in product. And um I think it's a good

in product. And um I think it's a good time to cap capitalize on that from sort of like a YC perspective. Like I think they had like a call for startups. One

of them was like design founders and I'm like we're really having our moment like this is so interesting.

>> This is Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah. And so it's like narratively we we're we're hot. Um I think that >> from a product perspective we're capable. Um, and from a execution

capable. Um, and from a execution perspective, it's never been easier to move as fast as you can. Um, and so I

think if you can error on like that velocity that is required to build things and build companies, um, and and

be able to like learn fast, fail fast, um, and apply the magic that is you being a designer to that um, I think really great things can happen more than

ever before.

What are the top three things potential design founders should be aware of?

>> It's a good question. I think one is working with the least resource as possible to see the and and and and trying to get

as far as you can. Um, I just remember like me being a designer early on. I was

like, "Oh, I need an engineer. I need

this. I need that. I need money. I

need," you know, it's like, "No, just you. What is it that you can do on your

you. What is it that you can do on your own now?" Like end to end and like start

own now?" Like end to end and like start there and and really try to like make that get to the magic moment just on your own as much as you can.

>> Just on your own.

>> Yeah. I think that that's a powerful skill because you'll have to learn a lot in the process. Um but it also is like um in the world that we live in today is

that you can do that. I remember I once like heard about the founder of Hinge.

He was a student at Harvard I believe and he learned Objective C to build Hinge.

And so it was like he didn't wait around for someone to build the app for him or whatever else. It's like founder mode is

whatever else. It's like founder mode is also like insane self-sufficiency. And I

think that that's a skill that you need to get better and better and better and better at like you're never waiting for someone to be the answer to your problem. You are always the answer.

problem. You are always the answer.

>> Um it's I think the faster you can especially now >> exercise that muscle. Yeah.

>> Better.

>> Especially now. Right. So which of you what part of the building of building actual came more easily versus others?

Now now we're talking about self-sufficiency and starting with you.

Um what did you lock in as your superpower and then what wasn't?

Yeah, I think for me what naturally comes easier is um talking to users, uncovering pain points and like making

sense of like what they're sharing in a way that like can translate into business value propositions and understanding of pain points. Um so I think it's kind of like the discovery

component of that. Um, I think the second obviously is just the building of products kind of end to end and and and bringing users into that, making it human, very human- centered. But I think

that those two things are much later in the process of like finding the right people to talk to, um, figuring out who they are, segmenting them further, um,

making sure that you're asking the right questions that lead to things that you don't even know to be asking. Um, and I think a lot of that stuff kind of comes from a lack of a little bit of the

industry um, knowledge or or specific specificities, regulatory um, regional understandings um, context that we're kind of unaware of as well. Like one of

the things that we do right now is we serve exporters, but like there's so much nuance to what being an exporter is. There's like letters of credit.

is. There's like letters of credit.

There's like you know um repatriation of funds and different types of accounts that they hold and you know how good shipped. There's like advancements on

shipped. There's like advancements on fun on pay on on on goods shipped.

Sometimes there's not escrow and all these other like layers that like >> you I remember when I was building for developer tools it was like I would use developer tools just to understand them so I could ask the right questions. And

it's almost like you kind of have to like redo that in this world as well where like that doesn't come as natural because you have to just like learn and understand these things to be able to ask the questions and be able to gain their trust. They won't talk to you if

their trust. They won't talk to you if you don't sound like you know what you're talking about. Um and so there's almost a little bit of that too

>> to Yeah. All right. So what what kind of came to you the what was more difficult for you to grasp

just on your early days for actual?

>> Yeah, I think probably just figuring out like go to

market and like the market part of product market fit.

um it's just so vast and like I think the more specific you are about who you're serving and why um making them love you is hard especially in a world

where you talk about building a product for like so many different types of user groups um that that becomes really really important um because it's also hard to like stay so focused when there's so

many people you could be talking to that could guide you in so many different directions. So, it's almost like

directions. So, it's almost like managing misdirection, um, maintaining focus and

knowing to say no >> as well.

>> So, how have you come to sharpen this skill like over time?

Yeah, I think it's been a bit of um I wouldn't say I'm amazing at it yet, but I think it's been just having a really really clear understanding of what it is

that you're solving for who and why them right now and maybe also kind of an anti-list of who you're not serving and why you're not serving them and why it doesn't make sense. um as well. And I

think that that ends up being a really strong kind of foundation to guide decisions. Um because it's so easy to be

decisions. Um because it's so easy to be drifting in so many different directions. Like people come to us all

directions. Like people come to us all the time and they ask us like, "Oh, we love your invoicing product. Like can

can you give us an API?" And it sounds cool because sometimes we get asks from like really big companies about this.

But it's like but should we like do that? Like

that? Like >> we get excited about it, but it's like no no we shouldn't. Why would we do that right now? Like that's not the core

right now? Like that's not the core product. that's not going to get us

product. that's not going to get us closer to our goals. I think that's the other thing too is like tying this back to like what are your goals right now and what are the specific things that are going to get you to those goals? Who

are the specific users that are going to get you to those goals?

>> So then it becomes much more of a linear path as opposed to like one where you're just kind of all over the place and not focusing on at all.

>> Yeah. My argument there is what if um you have a goal, you have where you want your users to go, you have the direction you want them to go, but more and more

you see that users aren't doing that, right? They aren't doing like they

right? They aren't doing like they aren't following the path that you want them to go. They aren't specifically in line with the vision, right? So are

you what what do you do then? Are you

going to say okay they are not my ICP or like um like I'm serving the wrong users like or is it >> a question for you to go back to the drawing board and start over?

>> Yeah, for sure. I think that I feel like the best businesses are built on aha moments, but aha moments just come naturally. And so it's like if users are

naturally. And so it's like if users are doing something that you're not expecting them to do, if you lean into that pattern, like you find something that either like guides you to do something different or like completely

like pivot and say, "Okay, this is not working at all." Um, but I think almost it's it's making quick decisions from from learnings and creating environments

where you can learn fast. Um, but at the same time, it's asking questions that help you better understand what it is that they were trying to do or or wanting to do or um at the same time

kind of exploring different groups that maybe you could be solving problems for.

But yeah, I think all in all, it's not going to be sometimes the thing that you think it is. Um, but knowing that is I think the million-dollar question that

that can only come from a little bit of serendipity, but als but I think most important is just like making sure you have a really tight loop to like learning from people.

>> Yeah. Um a lot of things I find happen to founders is um or people that are starting stuff or building stuff is that there's this idea to hold on to your

vision as tightly as possible cuz that's helps with like vision and clarity and saying no, right? But how do you know like the more and more you hear from users, the more you hear from other

people um and it seems like the vision that you have in mind isn't in line with the reality that you're getting.

>> So what is it that you know at what point do you need to think say to yourself, you know what, let me let me rethink this. Let's put ego aside and

rethink this. Let's put ego aside and listen.

Yeah, I think as a founder like there's a lot of places maybe where you should have ego, confidence, and incredible conviction. But I think that if users

conviction. But I think that if users are telling you one thing that contradicts what you feel, this is probably the place where you need to feel the least ego and the least confidence.

And it's hard. But the faster you are at acknowledging it when you're wrong and learning why you're wrong is is is is ultimately better for you

and and for the business, but I get that it's difficult. Um, and I think that

it's difficult. Um, and I think that that's something that you're constantly going to come up as against the founder.

I mean, it could just be a string of like calls with users this week that can make you feel that way and the next week it could be the total opposite where you're like, "Wait, no, we are right."

you know, so like your users will kind of make you go down that roller coaster yourself, but um I think that still there is a little bit of like founder

conviction and um kind of subjective direction um or intuition that is still very very important >> required.

>> But >> yeah, but but to let that cloud any like clear evidence I think is is just doing

yourself a disservice. Um and and I think that that's hard for founders to including myself accept but um that is

the the thing that matters the most um is it really to hear and be challenged.

But what is the fastest way to make that distinction? Like you know when you

distinction? Like you know when you constantly go within this roller coaster of like the says yes they aligned and then the next week you're hearing something else.

>> How do you make the clear distinction that this is just at this point a distraction and there are other people who can may feel this way so you need to

keep going.

>> Yeah I think it's one two things. I

think one is the insights can be very clearly validating, but the actions then need to follow. And if the actions don't follow, then ask questions about why

they're not following. And if the answers tell you something else, then the insight was wrong. Um whereas if the other side is the insights are telling

you not to do something, then I mean keep that in the back burner. And for

the ones that are telling you, see if they had all looped back to the thing that the other person was telling you that's not that was invalidating what you were doing. Um,

>> yeah, >> I mean really really what you're looking for is just clusters of information or themes, but people are always going to tell you things that could validate what it is that you're feeling or yes, oh my

god, this would be a lifesaver for me. I

would put this this is going to be the only app that I use or whatever else.

And like they lie. They don't process any volume. They don't use it. They

any volume. They don't use it. They

don't log in for a month.

>> Um, and then >> the reality of the things.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

>> Uh, okay. So, let's quickly do another icebreaker. It's called

icebreaker. It's called >> Kiss, Marry, Kill. Um, it's not what you think, but it's a really fun one. So

basically, yeah, I'm going to list out >> three products and you're going to decide if you want to >> kiss is probably like you want to like work with them like you want to work

with it forever. Um, marry is like you you want to work with them but not not as much but you want to have it around.

>> Kale is that is dead to you, right?

>> Yeah. So, first one is >> lovable cussa wind surf.

>> Um I to be honest I don't do a lot with these tools but I think I'll go with merry lovable um

kiss wind surf and kill casa.

>> Interesting. Um, so Claude Chajbt perplexity.

>> O, um, I would marry Chad GBT.

Um, you said Gemini was one.

>> Perplexity. Chad, Cl.

>> Claude. Okay. I would um kiss Claude and kill Perplexity.

That means marry chachib.

>> Yeah, mar chachi.

>> Okay, cool. All right. So, um, notion Apple nodes, Google Docs.

>> Um, I would marry Apple Notes, kiss Google Docs, and kill notion.

>> What? Everybody wants to kill notion.

What's happening?

I use Notion every day. What's What's

the thing with Notion? What's your thing with Notion?

>> You know, I You know, what app I really love was Dropbox Paper. I really love that before. I feel like that was

that before. I feel like that was >> Well, you're the second person to say this actually.

>> Yeah, I really I love the formatting. I

love the fluidity of Notion. I think I just don't love the the form factor.

It's like it sits it's hard to like navigate and search. It's so many different types of things um that are like maybe a little too much for what I

need. Whereas I like that it's in Google

need. Whereas I like that it's in Google it's like a doc, a spreadsheet or PowerPoint. Like I think those are

PowerPoint. Like I think those are primitives that I'm just so like akin to. So it's a little easier. Um and I

to. So it's a little easier. Um and I just use Docs. But like I love if if I could have Google Docs that looked like Notion just as a standalone app, I think

I would use that.

>> Like that better for me.

>> Okay. So you you don't like Okay. So you

don't like the idea that they're just different forms types of theater collecting that you can do on notion. I

think that's what it is.

>> Yeah. So it's like sheets, PowerPoint and and notes in like one or more things to be honest.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and and most often than not I'm just using sheets and docs, but it feels I just like I think maybe just the the mental model for me is just so

like ingrained that it's hard for me to like break. It's almost like people that

like break. It's almost like people that used um Arc versus like Google Chrome.

Like it kind of feels like that to me using notion.

>> It's like I'm just >> I like Arc but I'm just so used to Google I just want to stick to using Google.

>> It's like it's harder for me to >> Yeah. For someone that uses I use both.

>> Yeah. For someone that uses I use both.

So my personal computer like for my personal work I use Arc and then for work work I use like Chrome. So it's

it's not so much for me personally it's not so much of a context switch >> at least in the beginning. I guess in the beginning it was, but right now it seems like like he says, I think you think it's a mental thing. It's more so

a mental thing than >> a product thing.

>> All right. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

Um, >> so there's another one. It's called ship it or scrap it. So, I'm going to list a

few things and you're going to decide if we ship or if we scrap. Um so

the first one is removing a legacy feature if 5% of the users love it.

Cheap or scrap?

>> Scrap.

>> So still like remove it. So yes, remove it.

>> Remove it. Yep. Yep. Yep.

>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So why

>> I guess that it's probably carrying a lot of burden on the team and maintaining something that is not liked

by 95% of the user base to me feels like why not figure out how to make a lot more people love this thing.

>> Um versus maintaining something that probably has a lot more debt and implications to improve.

M. All right. So, default theme that's neither light nor dark mood.

Sheep or scrub.

>> Ship.

>> Why?

>> I feel like the concept of light mode and dark mode like at least for most products doesn't really move the

needle. I think that maybe developers

needle. I think that maybe developers care about it or maybe like very like online people >> people >> but yeah for the most part I think that

it's not really a make or break thing as long as the default is really clean and easy to navigate the colors and for the most part I mean most platforms now will

even like auto do that for you at some level not that it's good but like you Yeah.

>> Right. So,

third one, on boarding that drops you straight into the product with no explainer.

>> Uh, I would say scrap.

I normally love this concept, but depending on what it is that you have.

Um, like research shows that people are very like goal oriented and the more you can like have this concept of like a checklist or like completing something, it hooks them more into the

product and um, it gives them more reason to like continue to come back and use it. If it feels like a blank canvas,

use it. If it feels like a blank canvas, you're never going to fill it. But if it feels like a blank canvas with a couple of prompts or things that you need to do, it's it's going to be helpful. Like

one of the things that we did in our onboarding was showing you the invoice preview as you're onboarding. So you're

telling us your company name, you're uploading your your your logo, tax ID, location >> and it's getting filled real time.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And it feels like now now I have something connected to this piece and now Yeah.

I want to I want to get it done because my invoice is right there. Yeah, I saw that. It's pretty cool.

that. It's pretty cool.

>> Oh, >> and the mobile implementation too was really clean as well. I was I was I was really curious to see how it worked on mobile. So, I tried to sign up my

mobile. So, I tried to sign up my mobile.

>> Um, so yeah, the last one is Easter eggs hidden in a finance dashboard.

>> Chip.

Of course. That's that was that was a that was a tr that's a true question.

>> Yeah.

>> For for you. Um yeah. So that's that's it with our icebreers. Um I wanted to go back to the time before actual. So you

are at this sort of unsexy sort of like developer companies. Um, so what keeps

developer companies. Um, so what keeps like at that point where you were at this sort of like building this kind of products, how did you think about your

role as a designer and how did you make sure that you are doing making the right right decisions for the company thing that you are building?

Yeah, I think that historically like those types of environments are ones where like design has very very little

care or um you know you can feel its impact in in the product or like um it's just not as important. And so I think

that um I think first and foremost it's sort of like it feels kind of like going into a sports team in a market that no

one cares about and you get to be a star player and you think of it as the opportunity to like I'm going to take this team to the championship. So it's

almost a little bit of this like you're in an environment where no one cares, no one's watching. Like you have the

one's watching. Like you have the opportunity to really like drive impact.

Um, and I think that's that's really exciting because it's like, hey, the Lakers don't want me. The Knicks don't want me. All right, that's fine. I'm

want me. All right, that's fine. I'm

gonna play for these guys. I'm gonna

show them I can still win championships regardless.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's almost a little bit of this like, you know, chip on your shoulder thing, but also the fact that like design transcends, you

know, the offering itself and like it can make anything better. And um it's just a matter of making that uh happen.

>> Yeah. Um which of these like products or companies taught you the most about design's role in spaces people don't think as design

>> le?

I I want to say that like being a design team of one taught me a lot in like the early days. um just because it taught me

early days. um just because it taught me a lot of how to navigate making design have impact and and making people care about design and effectively playing so many different roles of

design. Whereas I think in a lot more of

design. Whereas I think in a lot more of these structured environments, you play one very small piece, but then you get to benefit of like the success of all the other things, right? It's like

>> I think one of the things that I struggle with a lot with designers from big companies is that when you present work that uses a very rigid design system, I don't think I get to sense how

good of a designer you are because you're really good at connecting Lego blocks, but I want to know if you can also build the Legos yourself.

Um, and I think that in environments where there's very little defined, that tells me a lot more about your skill as a designer. Um, now

designer. Um, now >> I to say like, yeah, >> the other environments though are still very helpful in the sense that you get to be around a lot of really high quality things, but if you're not doing

the intentional work of like understanding why they're so high quality and like how you arrive to a lot of those things or trying to build or challenge >> those components

>> or um, yeah, then then it's kind of >> you're not going to learn a ton, I think.

M fair. Um, if you could go back to your Stripe days, >> are there anything that you would change >> about your time there?

>> That's a good question.

>> I don't think I would actually. I think

I was very very fortunate to like be in the position that I was at Stripe. Like

I worked on a very unsexy product that no one cared about. I was a soul designer on it with like two other engineers, a PM and and an EM. And the

irony was that originally for the role that I applied, it was like you're going to be a designer for a new product that no one's on. And I didn't get the role because they were like, we needed someone more senior to to be the

designer on this team. But then I ended up doing the exact same thing on another team. That team ended up becoming like

team. That team ended up becoming like the star because we were growing very fast. It ended up becoming like a really

fast. It ended up becoming like a really important product for for Stripe whereas the other one I don't even think we even hear about these days. Um

>> and then I also just got to work with really really great managers and and teammates and so I think I was really fortunate in that sense. Um

>> looked out.

>> Yeah. But I don't think there's anything I would change.

>> Okay, that makes sense. So, where do you think you you are you had the most fun working? Like you did great, great work,

working? Like you did great, great work, great work, great people. Um, it was just the vibe.

>> Yeah, I think Stripe was certainly that.

Um, but I mean I I can't not say actual like I think that that's probably like the the most fun and the most like living out my dream type of environment

um as possible. So, I like that it's rooted in experience from Stripe and other things, but that that's what I get to do like every day now.

>> Yeah. So, would you say actual is like your life's work or or something that you're focusing on for now?

>> Yeah, I mean, I certainly hope that it can be like my life's work. I think that there's a lot of opportunity and potential for it to become that. Um but

at the same time kind of going back to that founders's ego and understanding what works you know now um and and and if it has to evolve I think that that's another reality as well. It's like is

actual you know um and what it is today completely different than what it eventually becomes which point like I think that the pursuit of the uh organization itself may be different

than what it looks like today. Um, or

maybe there's someone else better suited to help take this to the next phase. And

I played the part that I played. Um,

>> but I think it's I think it's my life's work to get it to the point that I have the most ability to get it to.

>> When did you guys decide that you know what, we need to raise money? Um, let's

get let's get let's get serious about this.

>> Yeah. Um, I think we did that once we started to have a lot more of the like I think once we hit kind of like that 50 mark conversations where we're like we we have something here and it feels

really clear and um we need to like quit our jobs and like pursue this like full-time.

>> Oh, so the you've quit your job along the way, not before. I thought you quit your job before. That was my >> Yeah. Yeah, it was it was along the way

>> Yeah. Yeah, it was it was along the way um that we that we quit our jobs.

>> So that's a that's a big risk right there. Um

there. Um yeah, it's a big bet. It's it's a great product, of course. Uh I'm rooting for the team. I'm rooting for you guys. Um

the team. I'm rooting for you guys. Um

and like you know, I'm looking at what you guys do next. Um what do you think your next steps are? What should we look forward to?

>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, we're just most excited about seeing how we can help unlock business um for a more borderless world and, you know, target folks who

maybe are not as targeted or thought about um benefiting from something like this. Um so, I think I was just most

this. Um so, I think I was just most excited about being able to like do that and then be able to tell the stories of these businesses and and their impact on the global economy and and how we can

help enable what they do.

>> Yeah. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. What

do you what role do you think like the government has to play um in terms of all the the policies and the laws around stable coins? I see that you I haven't

stable coins? I see that you I haven't gotten into this as much as I should have, but I see that um you know just like with the government of Trump and

administration there's a lot of pro cryptoess right happening right now. So

I'm curious to >> like you know the role that you have to play >> and get some things out of the way.

>> Yeah, for sure. I mean we are certainly like open to like kind of sharing our perspective and what we think is helpful for businesses, but we're not going to let the government like get in the way of us like providing value to businesses

around the world. And I think that's historically what we've seen is that you know there are situations where regulation is an excuse. Um and then there are other cases where we have no

other choice and um people are willing to do things because this becomes a a better a chance at like improving their livelihood and so on and so forth. And

so >> um I think we try to lean in more that second path than we do like waiting for someone else to again kind of coming back to that idea of a founder needing to >> you know take control of their own

destiny but like >> we're not waiting around for regulation to make us relevant. We're gonna find a way. Yeah, with or without it kind of

way. Yeah, with or without it kind of thing.

>> Yeah. Oh. Um, we've talked for over an hour actually. Um, but the final

hour actually. Um, but the final question is, who is one person you want to see behind the ship? And I know you've mentioned the design team at

Paystack, but is there anyone specifically?

>> Um, that's a good question. Um,

you know, I I feel like the designers at Yellow Kart might be interesting as well. You know, they like I've read some

well. You know, they like I've read some of the like articles and stuff that they've like put together, but I'm curious to hear about what it's like being there

>> doing that. Fair. I should should make a note of that. But yeah, thank you so much for coming behind the ship. Um, I'm

happy to have you. I hope you had fun. I

tried to be as engaging as possible, but this was really fun for me.

>> Um, enjoy enjoy the rest of your nights.

>> Yeah.

>> Thanks so much, L.

>> Good night.

>> Bye.

>> Okay. Take care.