Career tips from a Shipbroker in Dubai [Theano Karathanasi]

welcome to the Marian Vision podcast I'm your host Paul woli in each episode we bring you exclusive interviews with Maritime professionals industry experts

and students our guests come from different backgrounds including shipping yoing offshore and more our goal is to give you all the knowledge you need to succeed in the maritime

industry welcome everyone welcome back to a new podcast episode so today we have with Tano K tanasi I hope I pronounce in a good way your name so

she's a shoker perfect she's a shipbroker based in Dubai this episode is a source of inspiration for people who wants to work in the ship booking industry but also for women and for

those who wants to relocate in a new country elot know it's a pleasure to having you here in this episode can you introduce yourself and talk about your background please yeah of course thanks

for having me in the first place uh so I'm 29 years old I am from Greece and I relocated to Dubai one year back almost

one year back uh with a goal to become a ship broker before I was working in the shipping industry but I was not a ship broker so the main goal I I moved here

because I had a uh job opportunity to become a sh broker so that was my dream job so when I when I received on the link you know the the message I was of course

I will go I took only three days to decide and then I was I'm coming so this is my my short story how I came to Dubai and yeah except of this I love to dance

dance is my passion so yeah after work I either go to the dance class or to an event with dancing or these things oh very interesting so you start shooking

like in Dubai or you had a previous expense uh in Dubai so I am a ship broker one year now before I was into shipping two more years so in totally three years I

work in shipping industry but before uh I was in a Greek company Greek ownership company and I was assistant in the chartering team team of the you know they are also Brokers but internal

Brokers for the owner okay so I was assistant in the in the department okay so um so so you said why why did you choose to to work as a ship broker

because you have you finish your master then you decide to work as ship broker but you could choose another kind of job maybe V operations management marketing I don't

know yes true true uh yes this is true because also the the master that I did was international shipping finance and management

so uh it it was it it it covered all these sectors so you're right I could choose any of these but uh you know I had the the ship broker role as my D

dream job because it combined two things one is the analytical thinking so you have to be good with numbers you have to run you know the analysis to know what

are the freight rate what is the market so anything that has to do with numbers I I love numbers so first thing was that

then the second thing was uh I am intuitively you know um social as a person so I like to meet new people I like to speak with people I have communication skills so the combination

of the two the analytical thinking and the communication skills uh made you know a combination and then I said okay this is my dream job I want to do this in my life very

beautiful so it's nice uh I just want to point out the fact that during this episode we're going to talk about of course sh bring so you're going to make a very short introduction of sh King while it is for people who don't know

then we're going to talk more about Dubai uh on the opportunities we have in the martime industry in Dubai maybe you can talk a little bit about your studies your master um we're going to talk as

well about Linkin because you you not you you told me I remember that's that's a very important on pointful tool and uh then you can talk about your experience uh

the anecdotes you have uh in this industry so let's start with SH broking so can you say talk a little bit about what are you doing as a ship broker especially your role

mhm okay uh to answer this question let's go one step behind and let's let's answer what is a ship broker so the ship broker is the intermediary between the

ship owners and the charterers so the main goal of a ship broker is to develop relationships it's a relationship based

role uh then you have to build expertise because there are different H different sh Brokers you can be SHP and S she broker chartering she broker scraping

she broker so you and depending on your expertise you have to be knowledgeable and then there are different markets

tanker dry containers many markets so in my specific role I work for Queen Canon Associates so we specialize in the chemical Market which is highly

technical highly technical caros there are a lot of specifications you have to understand the cargo on itself uh the last cargo of the vessel if there is any

purging requirement uh the hitting temperature all these things you have to have the knowledge to advise your your clients uh then we can say a bit what

I'm doing dayto day or what a sh broker is doing dayto day yeah yeah so the the the the first thing is you have to follow the market you have to understand what are the available caros out there

what is the suitable Donuts what are the vessels that can accommodate these caros and then you have to understand what are the market levels uh these things you can find from the Last Dance The Last

Dance is the most recent pictures so for a specific routing for example uh let's

say AG to Far East there are some recent pictures so you have to understand that this this trade uh the fair the fair

rate to charge is this one or this can be changed because there are some fundamentals in demand and Supply that we expect the rat to be higher or lower

from the last done so all these things you have to follow the market you have to have position list an updated position list you have to have a Caro list a fixures

list all these lists help you to match the supply and the demand okay uh then because you speak with the parties you speak with your clients on a daily or in a weekly basis

you gather valuable information so then um a good thing is to uh write a market commentary so every week and every month

uh you make some comments on the market that we expect the market um to be more

soft or uh firm and these are the recent pictures and these are the supply demand factors so it's it's it's good thing for

your clients to understand a bit what is the pulse of the market okay okay very interesting so these are the basic the basic uh and of course you know the the

fixing cycle you have to to be able to support in all the stages of the fixing cycle so in the beginning there is an offer then the the two parties have to

negotiate the main terms so then we have a Subs recap then if every everything is agreed the details as well then we have the fully fixed recup so you have to

support the ne negotiation and after is the post fixure so you have to be able to support before during the negotiation and after the the fixure okay very

interesting so it's like you have the cargo owner who want to ship the shipment to another place in the world so you need to find of course the the

ship available so about this process of finding the ship I imagine you have already a big database of ships exactly but sometimes you need to I imagine to

make C call calls exactly exactly because you know sometimes some owners they don't have position list they don't send they prefer to have private

communication so it depends on the client depends on the people you are referring to uh usually it's a combination usually you you have some

datab base then you have to update then you have to make calls you know it's not an automated process there is not one thing you have to adjust depending on the client okay

okay so I imagine if you work for very big uh ship working houses um it will be easier to find the shipment but maybe as young people you will it will be more

comfortable because you don't need to make many C call but if you work for like a early stage uh ship broking house maybe be more challenging because you

will have to to build the relationship relationship exactly exactly so yeah there are some advices of how to become a big like a a better broker a good

broker so maybe we can discuss yeah something how how to become a good broker yes go ahead yeah that's very interesting so yeah since since I'm new

in this role only one year I can Echo the advises that my manager gives to me how to be better so one advice is you

know to ask question like there is no silly question the only silly question is to not ask so especially when you're new in a in a market uh you have to ask

you know your team because you have also to be you know able to work in a team it's not uh like if you work in a company you have to be able you know to

support with each other yeah so first thing is to ask then have to put yourself out there to overcome your fear because in the beginning you may be

afraid of doing the phone calls or uh you know to you you might want to learn everything and then do the phone call but this is not always the case you you

cannot research anything of course it is good to have some you know some notes before doing a phone call but then you have to just take the phone and then

speak uh and you can get the information from the clients because some information no matter how much you research you may not find the information for example if the owners do

not have a position list if you don't call you may you may never know which vessels are available so there is there is there there should be a balance of

how much you research before doing the phone call okay okay very very interesting and about uh to come back a little bit about specialization I know

that in Shing we have SNP so sales on purchase oning do we need when you start in the industry is it easier to start with Shing or even to find position in this

field or not at all it depends uh see I will tell you what was my journey which is something that usually helps I think

to become a c broker so I started as an assistant in a uh chartering Department okay which is these people are internal

Brokers from the uh uh from the point of the owner so I was checking Recaps I was uh analyzing the Voyages I was supporting the commercial team so all

these information I received helped me understand uh the whole fixing cycle or what are the market dynamics all these things gave me

the basic knowledge then another step is to do some operations so uh in I think in most of the compan you will start with doing operations for some months

two three months 6 months uh depends on the company so even now even now I'm doing some operations because the chemical Market is a bit uh new for me

so I have to understand the caros I have to understand the trading routes or the specifications so the best way is to do the operations then after you do some time operations you are you're more

knowledgeable and then you can become a broker you know more more easily because if you start from zero as a c broker you

have gaps you have gaps you don't know uh a lot of things about the market you don't know a lot of things about the caros so I think the best way is to do some operations as a start okay so

operation this is a like following the ship ship planning all this stuff um I mean you mean that as a senior ship broker for example we don't touch in operations because we know we just focus

on the fixing side yes if you're a senior C broker you don't have to do the it depends on the company some companies you have to do the operations also of your own fixures in other companies

there are different people doing the operations different people doing the the fixing the chartering so it depends depends on the you know the company

policy or the team if there is a big team then there are specific roles if there is a small team then you may have to do both operations and chartering it depends

okay so that's interesting but um it means that because operation it's a fuel job it's a fulltime job job fulltime job yeah I made many

interviews with and it was they they exp to me wow you have so many things to do but as two broker it's to learn this it's challenging yes and and it's not

only a full-time job doing operations goes beyond the working hours you have to check your emails all the time even if it is weekend even if it is uh

holidays because the ship never stops to move so if it is Sunday and the ships the ship has arrived and some documents are needed you have to be there you have

to support so it's a lifestyle in general working in a shipping industry is a lifestyle like you have to like it or you cannot easily do it okay because

there are long hours there are meetings with clients there are travels but at the same time these things may make this this job interesting yeah yeah for sure for sure

uh that's very interesting but what about your first day because I imagine you are maybe lost or it goes yeah you mean that my very first day

week or in broker in broker as a sh broker yeah she broker so yeah the first day as you said you are a bit lost

because you need some time to understand uh you know to to move from the theory because from a master or from a professional certificate you have the

theoretical knowledge then you have to take some time to adjust the theory into practice so in the beginning you learn different things but

you cannot make a puzzle so you need some time some weeks some months to allocate all the pieces in the correct place and then to have the full picture

and to understand exactly what are your what is your role what are are the daily uh tasks uh what is the added value you have to give to the clients all this comes with experience of course you

don't know from the first day like you need some time some months okay well very very interesting and um so I in term of sh bring I could ask you many

questions like I I have so many questions in mind about regarding the job so for you you are specialized in chartering and you say uh so before you start with Liquid Cargo

uh so soering uh is it different I mean you have dry bu called this industry what is the difference I mean in ter as a sh broker in term of Market uh challenge

Etc yeah see I'm not sure I can uh reply to this question because I have all my experien is in tanker chartering yeah so I have some friends who are doing dry

it's I think it's a completely different Market the market dynamics are different like the seasonality factors um the demand and Supply factors it's it's a whole different world you know in

shipping there are so many different segments so every you know every Market has its own characteristics this is why I think you

never get bored in in shipping because you know you have to learn you have to follow the market read the news you know every day you can learn something new

this is like really interesting for me that's true on what advice can you give to someone want to start uh to work as

shipbroker okay so um of course some studies in shipping are useful you you need to have some basic understanding so either you can do a bachelor degree or a

master degree I did the master degree in shipping my first degree was Finance then I decided I want to uh change career uh then there are you know

professional certifications like The Institute of CH C Brokers IC very famous um so you can start with some

theoretical uh knowledge uh then of course you have to create a network uh so one way is to become

volunteer in shipping or organizations there is Young ship there is wsta Wista is specifically for women in shipping young ship is for young people in

shipping and there are other organizations local and Multinational yeah I thought about yeah one way is you know to to start

going to events there are so many shipping events uh like everywhere and every month there is something happening so if you are a student still in the

University you can go to this events you can participate you can uh speak with the people coming in the event and you know little by little um you can make

some net Network then also the LinkedIn as you referred before is very powerful as a tool so I found my last two jobs in

shipping through the LinkedIn so you have you have to have a good profile you have to update your profile in terms of your working experience you're

volunteering or anything you have done you can even add some uh you know dissertation if you are still a student and you don't have any other experience you have to build on what you have and

then you have to uh create the network like you have to send invitation to people in shipping and then once you have a good

Network you can ask help you can you can say that I'm looking a job in shipping whoever might help this I would really appreciate this and this is what I did

and then people that I that I didn't know before eventually they became my mentors now we are even friends so it is really nice to to understand that people out there are willing to help you

and then there are you know job job roles open in the LinkedIn you can apply some filters and based on the filters the LinkedIn gives you some open

positions so then you can apply like it's it's it's very easy I think it's very easy tool you just have to spend some time weekly like uh half an hour

weekly to be active on the LinkedIn you know to post some things to react in other post or repost or make connections you you have to you know

build build this tool okay that's very interesting what you say so it's so talking about LinkedIn it's all you did with your profile because your profile

is very I mean very you have a very good profile we can say uh with many connections and uh oh you may you start very in the early stage like when you

start study or later uh see I will tell you something uh uh when I did the Masters in shipping in Greece uh you know in Greece one of the

main industries is is shipping and uh Greek owners like the total tonage uh of Greek ship owners is the second the

second globally so which means that the main source of income for Greece comes from Shipping but there is a there is a contradiction here because from the one

side we have so many shipping companies from the other side if you don't have any experience in shipping and you just start you apply for the positions and

then most of the times the companies don't give you a good salary or they pay you very less money or they they may say to you we will not pay you for the first

six months so because that was the case with me as well H I said okay for myself I don't accept to work without getting paid because I had working experience

before and I had a good profile so I said to myself let's build a good LinkedIn uh let's make connection let's ask for help and people that I met

during this this journey they gave me motivation to search a paid job to search a good job and then they supported me they gave me advice uh they

helped me in which companies I should send my my CV so my first job in siipping in Greece was a paid job whereas I had Co students

from the University who started without without salary so you know I think using LinkedIn you can evaluate your first

experience to start from a good level not without payment at all this is you know it's I cannot believe this thing I mean it's it should not be the case

nowhere yeah that's true it's add value to your profile and you can sell yourself in a better way that that's true actually I have so many people I can be my classmate or even young people

they don't have a they don't use LinkedIn but I mean it's not a mistake but I mean it's something you need to to consider for sure because without LinkedIn how can you build Network I am

doing every for me LinkedIn it's the most important tool I have right now as a student so that what you say it's very powerful so that's very important Point

uh on now I want to switch to another topic uh which is uh a little can you talk about your studies quickly uh you did you said master of shipping what is

finance uh yeah the whole name of the program is international shipping finance and management so it was a master in shipping but we had a lot of

different modules and the whole program was in English uh so we we had the general fundamental understanding of the

shipping industry and of the different career paths that we can follow and the good thing about this program is that uh

except of the modules the assignments uh you know you have to be part of a team so you familiarize yourself how to work with other people as well and another

good thing is that we had a lot of visits to companies and to institutions so for us was a great way

to see how a company is actually working and we could speak with man we could speak with other teachers from other

institutions so that was really like a value added thing of the Master Okay okay so very good to know and for you can we start Sher even if we don't have

like a master or even a bachelor in shipping it can be international business or all this kind of topic yes I think I think someone can do that even

without studies uh because you can learn the job by doing but but of course uh having a theoretical background always is a plus is a plus because when you

start at least you know the basics at least you you hear names and you understand what what these names means you hear cardos you hear uh different uh

you know uh demand and Supply factors and you have an understanding otherwise it's a bit of you know Chinese I mean if you don't have any

background it may take you longer time to be able to do the job yeah okay yeah makes sense makes sense okay very interesting uh so now we have two topics

to discuss more about anecdotes on Dubai so let's start with maybe Dubai uh so so you want to add something maybe uh I I would like to to say an anecdote not in

Dubai but in Greece because in Dubai I mean I don't have something really interesting as a story to say I mean okay everything is interesting in my job but not as a funny story or something

like that uh so if you if you don't mind I can share something for Greece for sure

go ahead okay so this is linked also to uh to chase your dreams even if you're human in shipping because you know

sometimes uh this this industry is a bit uh how can I say it's a bit more traditional and sometimes the percentage

of people working are higher to the men and less to the women uh so some years back while I was doing the Masters in shipping I started doing some courses

extra courses in other institution to become a broker sh broker uh so one day because because since then I had the goal I had my dream

job was to become a c broker so I did everything that I could like I was attending events going to do extra courses everything that you can imagine

to get the knowledge so I was doing some courses uh there is an institution similar to the IC but it's only in Greece it's local

one so then I did the courses and uh during the break I went to a teacher and I asked I asked the teacher uh what what can I do to become a ship broker what

advice can you give me and then the teacher was telling me no you cannot become a c broker and I was asking again but why why cannot become a SE broker and he was no you cannot become a c

broker he was really insisting on that and then I insisted back like tell me please the reason why I cannot become a SE Brer and then in the end he said

because you're a woman and you know this can be for some people this can be really demotivating because if you're young if you're uh still a student in the university and you don't have

experience you may hear this and then convince yourself that you cannot do it but on the contrary uh what happened the story continues a bit because in this

same course uh we had the lack and the privilege uh to have a uh student but he was actually very knowledgeable he was

uh he was a previous ship owner from a very famous family of ship owners in Greece so he was in retirement but he

liked to come to the lessons and to hear about the industry to give his knowledge so till that point I didn't know that this person was a ship owner a

former ship owner and there was a shipping event a Christmas shipping event so in this event we started talking with this person you know

because he was older than us we were you know 20 something and he was 50 plus 60 plus so we started talking with him he gave us uh his stories because he was

sailing also so he had so many stories to share and then next day he invited us to go with him in another ship ship

owner that they were friends so uh he said if you have free time come with me I want you to see how it is to do some phone calls you know to what are the

conversations between sh owners between other parties and the SHP owners so I was really interested I was of course I want to go there and see what what is

this thing uh so I went there and I was only 26 I think and I had no previous experience of going in a ship company on

my own with ship owners so there were uh two older people than me very older like 50 60 plus knowledgeable people uh ship

owners and then it was me and I was hearing the conversation it was I cannot explain to you how how how amazing that

was as as an experience so then I shared with this with this person that I had a a negative feedback from the teacher that I cannot become a SE broker and

then the the this this person he told me no don't listen to this uh to this uh teacher I think that you have a goal you have a dream and I believe that you can

do the dream you can actually become a SE broker so don't uh put a limitation on yourself because someone told you you cannot do it because you're a woman you

can do it have your dream have your action plan know your why why you want to become a c broker and then you have the motivation and you can achieve your goal go and and and and do what you want

to do don't listen to any voices external voices and you became a she broker and I became a she broker and like it's the biggest satisfaction that

I can get that I followed my dream and I did not uh you know stopped uh believing in myself because some someone else told me I cannot do it that's very prayerful

what you say because that's so true I mean if you have in your life someone who say you cannot do this job because any reasons don't listen just go go for

it just go just go just know your why why you want to become a c broker or operator or whatever job yeah I don't know but yes that's very important on

know why why why you want you like the lifestyle you like the good uh salary you like uh being informed about the industry what is your personal reason

that you want to become a c broker for me I told you it was the combination because I felt like I can be happy with this job role because it is you know I

have the skills intuitively to communicate or I have the analytical mindset so I said okay if I combine this then I can be happy because

I will go to work and do something that I am good at it I I like doing I like analyzing I like yeah speaking to people so I said to myself this can be a very

good job for you yeah yeah yeah no you you told you told me this anecdote and I was uh I was very surprised so now you I know I know what uh this you spoil I I I know everything but that's that's very

powerful on the people who listen this podcast will be very I mean you will give them motivation for them for people who identify to the situation and especially woman actually so thank thank

you for that and now we can maybe talk about Dubai yeah for sure for sure we can talk about Dubai I mean you know uh

shipping industry is worldwide industry many students who study in University in country they know that they have big chance to move to another country maybe because you have opportunities in every

countries everywhere so imagine you you study in I don't know in the UK maybe you will have a job in Singapore maybe in Hong Kong what can you say about your expense to

move so you are Greek so I know for Greek people it's very common to move because there are more people outside Greece almost than in Greece but I mean yeah we are 11 million people in Greece

and another five million everywhere in the world yeah that's true my class is full of Greek people so it's very funny actually but uh that's that's it shows that in the industry you need to travel

can what can you say about this expense move uh for your carer is it a good choice to move for it or you need to stay in your home country can you elaborate on it yeah of course uh so in general before speaking about Dubai

specifically I can say to you that relocating to another country is a life changing experience because first of all you put yourself in a situation that you

have to survive on your own in a new place with new people with new job everything new new climate new atmosphere new scenery everything is new

so only this fact makes you becoming more mature more mature and then then it's like your mind is becoming wider

because you meet people from other countries you have to uh you know you make friends from everywhere here my friends are from from Russia from India

from Cyprus Greece uh Lebanon Syria turkey China from everywhere so so having to to communicate and then having

to you know do things with all these different nationalities EV evaluates your your your your level your understanding of the world so you become

like I don't know for me I I became more how can I say more mature I would put it like that more mature yeah then Dubai specifically is a very nice place for

for shipping it's a hub as you said it's a hub because um there are many reasons why in in the past few years Dubai has

be has became a hub for shipping so first of all H how how all started with the pandemic uh it was one of the few places that was still open there were some

lockdowns but it was not as bad as Europe was not as bad as as as China or other places in the world so so Dubai

took advantage of this of this uh fact then there were a lot of Investments happen ing because it is near to Saudi Arabia so Saudi

Arabia is was always booming econ e economy so partly because of that there are investments here also in Dubai then

the political situation is stable so it's another reason why the economy can can bloom here uh then in terms of trading there

are many companies that relocate here or opened off new Offices here for example my company that the one that I'm currently working Queen Canon Associates

uh they started the office here in Dubai six years back so most of the companies even before pandemic they relocated here

or they opened new Offices here uh because the place you know was uh was blooming in general okay uh so

yeah it's and and and something interesting uh that I can add here is there was a research last year showing that Dubai is the second best place for

expatriates so this is also very interesting because you know as as a foreigner you come here and you have so many things that uh that can make you

stay here that's true and about you you know that Dubai we have so many cliche about the city like it's boring it's artificial we don't have nature it's too

hot uh people are superficial you cannot build family family you cannot make good friends uh it's only for money all this stuff yes that's yeah see I think in

every place in the world there are good things and bad things so for me specifically I would say I miss a bit the nature of Europe there are there is not lot there

is not a lot of nature here uh yeah the weather can be challenging in the summer but we have a very nice winter with no

no uh cold so the winter time is perfect here okay then you have a lot of things that happen very easily for example you

can order anything you want for the house any food or uh supplies and in 15 minutes you have everything delivered to your home like online or you order a

taxi you can find the taxi very easily you can go to the hospitals without paying very easily you can just make a call and then there is an appointment so

some things are happening faster and you know more more easy than in Europe it's a super modern place you know the scenery is uh in the beginning I I came

here and I thought it was uh like fake I mean I could not believe that these skyscrapers can be so high like 40 levels I could not understand how how

they make these huge buildings so in its own way it is beautiful of course you know there are difficulties like everywhere it's not a

perfect place but uh for shipping I think is is is a very good place to be or at least stay some years and you know have an experience of some years in

Dubai that's true very very powerful I mean yeah and even uh you have many things to do in Dubai you have almost everything you can I mean for obies I'm

sure you can dance you can find a dancing club I started dancing recently and I'm so happy because I told you it's my passion so yeah when I dance I'm

happy when I don't dance I can survive but I'm not totally happy yeah I know what you mean yeah for sure so you you can find your your you can find your own

way you can there are different uh Lifestyles for everyone there are places that are not that expensive there are other places that are more expensive

there are different activities so it doesn't matter how H how how you want to spend your life here there are choices for everyone this is what I have seen the past one year that I'm here that's

true and how about the Visa is it easier than Europe to get the visa or it was with sponsorship all this stuff uh see the Visa I I I think the only way to get

the visa or maybe I'm wrong but I think the best way is to have a a job so the so so the the employer actually pays

your visa and your Visa has the the number of the company so you cannot easily come to Dubai if you don't have a job yeah but I but I mean for example in

UK they want people with the Bri passport or at least a permanent residency but they company doesn't want to sponsor you because it's too many paperwork ET in Dubai I don't think it's

like that no it's easy in Dubai it is easy it's not that difficult okay that's a good point yeah yes yes usually usually the sponsor is the company you work for

and then there is some time needed for example one month or some weeks then you need some documentation but but it's relatively easy it's not

that hard okay okay very good to know so for people want to to move aboard especially if you work in the maritime industry Dubai you need to consider this choice because first of all we have many

job opportunities and secondly the living there is can be a very good experience uh so thank you for your feedback uh I think I ask you all the questions I need and we did like 40

minutes of talking now so I think it's the end of the podcast but if you want you can add something a word of the end uh okay we can make a recap that uh

because we are speaking about becoming a ship broker so so for me it's it's a lifestyle because we said you may have to work outside the working hours or

have some meetings or have some travels and in general you have to informed all the time about what is happening in the world and specifically to your market so if you like doing

these things then you have you can be very happy with this job but if you want a more uh fixed working uh you know

hours with nothing except of this or very structur you may not find this very good

fit for you so being a SE broker I think is you have to like this job if you if you like this job you can be very good if you don't like this maybe you have to

do something else okay but uh for me is one of the most interesting things one of the most interesting job roles that you can you can do glad to hear thank

you Tano for this very inspiring episode I wish you all the best in Dubai and in your life and uh I of course I'm sure

the will like this episode so thank you have a very nice day take care bye-bye thank you so much thank you byebye thank you for listening on watching this episode we are looking

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