Chris Zukowski: How To Make Your First Game Blow Up On Steam (With No Following) | Ep. #045

Meet Chris Zakowski, the go-to expert for game devs, both solo and teams, dreaming of hitting the Steamfront page.

In this episode, Chris gets super deep on the ultimate question. How do you rack up hundreds of thousands of wish lists before you launch your game without a following? And honestly, do you even need to do this? Do you need

100,000 wish lists? Do you need a viral game? After all, with hundreds of

game? After all, with hundreds of thousands of wish lists, this is what I think, that's your ticket to hundreds of thousands of dollars in profit, right?

We dive deep into this and honestly we disagree on several points. We also dive into his proven wish list building tactics, Steam metrics that matter and Steam metrics that don't. We talk about

avoiding the lukewarm trap, the critical role of demos, optimal demo launch timing, and why you don't need as many wish lists as you might think to go

full-time indie with zero experience. We

dig deep into the data in this episode.

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you check out their Unity SDK by simply clicking the link in the description. You know, you're the

description. You know, you're the marketing expert here. You're the guy who you dig basically your thing is you dig into data and you dig into Steam data and you you help developers figure out how to properly market and launch

their games. And so my first question

their games. And so my first question for you is I wanted to do a little thought experiment with you and I was curious if you wanted to do this.

Basically, let's talk about execution as it pertains to to Steam, how to execute properly. So the question I think a lot

properly. So the question I think a lot of people are asking is they're thinking, okay, let's pretend let's pretend I'm going to make a good game. I

mean, that's right off the bat, that's already a pretty difficult thing to accomplish. Let's pretend. Yep. Yes.

accomplish. Let's pretend. Yep. Yes.

Let's pretend, right? How so? The

question is, let's pretend people in the audience listening now have a a decent game. It's just it's a good solid game.

game. It's just it's a good solid game.

It's not the greatest. It's solid. The

question is, how do you get a 100,000 wish lists as a nobody? So, they don't have a big email list like Chris. They

don't have a big email list or YouTube following or whatever like Thomas and Chris. What is like the step-by-step

Chris. What is like the step-by-step process that you would take? Like if you had to guide somebody or you had to you had to do it yourself, how would you get a 100,000 wish lists? Which by the way,

for people listening and then I'll let you riff here. The reason this is important is because if we can get a 10 to 20% conversion rate and we sell a $10

game, that's a lot of money. Right now,

the assumption is 10% to 20% conversion rate, which I'd love to hear your thoughts on that as well, but go like what what would you do if you wanted to get 100,000 wish lists as a nobody?

Yeah. So, your following people always say that on Reddit, too. Like, I have no following. Like, it does. Following is

following. Like, it does. Following is

not required. It really is not required.

I don't know what they mean by following exactly like YouTube and stuff. I think

because a lot of people who ask that are watching YouTubers Mhm. And so they always assume like YouTuber has big following. So that that is not necessary

following. So that that is not necessary folks. Not at all to have a big

folks. Not at all to have a big following because you're paying Steam to do that following for you to boost you beyond a following. So I don't think following is important. Let's just put that away. Two is I don't think money is

that away. Two is I don't think money is important. Like I mean to make the game,

important. Like I mean to make the game, yes, but most of the stuff I'm going to say doesn't cost any money. So, here's

the thing is one $100,000 is not or 100,000 wish list is not required either. But I'll keep going. I'll keep

either. But I'll keep going. I'll keep

pretending. You want to have 100,000. I

would love to know why. I mean, if you want to get to that, why? Like, why that doesn't matter? Um, I think you just

doesn't matter? Um, I think you just need like 30,000. I think that's it. So,

for what? 30,000 wish list just to do decent. So, okay, after a certain point

decent. So, okay, after a certain point with Steam, here's the deal. And you

guys have to stop thinking like direct response marketing where it's like if I get 100,000 people on my email list, I know they convert it this much. That is

not how Steam works. So Steam, the way Steam works is they give your game a certain amount of visibility and if you do well with that visibility, they keep

giving you more. And once you get above I mean 100,000 is good. There's I'll

tell you some there are some things that you can get out of that that you can't get at the lower tiers like 30,000. But

for the most part, I think 30,000 is sufficient to get you within that test area that Valve tests with Steam to see if your game does well. And then once

you get past that, then it goes it goes wild. It's not we do this and then this

wild. It's not we do this and then this and then this like a like a funnel, a pure funnel. It really is like we're

pure funnel. It really is like we're going to test your game for this much and see how many sales you get and if you sell enough, we'll keep promoting you. That is that is what you all have

you. That is that is what you all have to figure out. That's that's the first thing. Okay. So, do you want me to keep

thing. Okay. So, do you want me to keep going? I'll go down the 10,000 route or

going? I'll go down the 10,000 route or Can I ask a question really quick before you keep going? Is that kind of like the YouTube algorithm? Like, it's like get

YouTube algorithm? Like, it's like get people in the door. Like, getting some people in the door is all you really need to do. Then what matters is you got to have a solid game with retention.

Exactly. And that's is that I guess YouTube like you have to I I just did it recently. Got qualified. What do they

recently. Got qualified. What do they call it?

get to a thousand subscribers and somebody start doing getting terrible ad revenue. Yeah. Yeah. It's stupid. Don't

revenue. Yeah. Yeah. It's stupid. Don't

don't think folks don't YouTube sucks everybody. Anyway, so um anyway, so what

everybody. Anyway, so um anyway, so what I mean is you get that minimum amount whatever it is qualified or 30,000 and then you're kind of in the running is

what I'd say. You could even do 10,000 to 20,000 wish list, but it is not it is not a direct linear like, oh, you're going to convert at 10% or 20%. Like, if

you you can juice the numbers up to 100,000, but if your game's not delivering on the promise, you're going to convert at like 1 to 5%. So, there's

no magic this is what wish lists convert at. And Valve will even tell you, and I

at. And Valve will even tell you, and I I've been in meetings with Valve, like in person, they're like, we don't know how well wish lists are going to convert.

So, what about this in terms of the metrics? Because you're you're saying

metrics? Because you're you're saying like, okay, but your game needs to perform well. Does that mean that it's

perform well. Does that mean that it's got really good reviews? Does that mean that it's selling well relative to what?

Like, how do you know it's performing well? Forget review count. Like, in

well? Forget review count. Like, in

other words, forget um forget review positivity, right? That's the big thing

positivity, right? That's the big thing is because people are like we're like 75 we're like 98% positive positive and we have 100 reviews and nobody's else

buying it. It doesn't matter. Positivity

buying it. It doesn't matter. Positivity

doesn't matter as long as you're mixed or above in the Steam algorithm just we're just talking Steam algorithm. It

doesn't matter. The thing that Valve looks at the only metric it cares about it's super simple. How many dollars did you earn? Not percent conversion,

you earn? Not percent conversion, nothing like that. Raw dollars. How much

did you earn? That's all they care about when you launch your game. Now, you're

This is a relative number, right? So,

let's say that certain games are just making way more money in your genre or in your niche. Is that what we're looking at here? We're looking at not just some arbitrary number. Yay, I made

a thousand bucks. It's more like, no, how are you performing relative to the other games in your niche? Is that kind of what it is? M not really. Um it's

it's universal cuz people always ask me like VR VR folks. I'm sorry if you're making a VR game. I'm sorry to sell VR games are just not they don't sell on Steam. They just don't. And people

Steam. They just don't. And people

always VR I always say VR games don't sell. And then I always get an email

sell. And then I always get an email from a couple VR people. They're like

but what about relative to other VR games? I'm like it doesn't matter. It

games? I'm like it doesn't matter. It

just doesn't matter. Valve only the algorithm is so simple. Are you making us money? Because that real estate that

us money? Because that real estate that Steam puts up on the front page of Steam, if your game's not converting well, that is a spot that could be taken up by somebody else who is doing better

than you. I guess that's what I mean by

than you. I guess that's what I mean by relative though, Chris, is like you are competing with other games at the end of the day, right? So, it's relative to other games. So, if like it's not just

other games. So, if like it's not just like you have remember you were talking about YouTube subscribers and how YouTube's like, "Yay, you can get make ad revenue." Now, that's a it seems

ad revenue." Now, that's a it seems arbitrary. A thousand. If you get a

arbitrary. A thousand. If you get a thousand followers, then suddenly you get to be getting you get promoted or paid by YouTube. With Steam, it's not some arbitrary, you made $1,000,

therefore we're going to promote it more. It's more like you're doing better

more. It's more like you're doing better than this person, so therefore we'll push it more. I think so. Yeah, you could kind

more. I think so. Yeah, you could kind of say, I mean, it's the only thing is there's so many games out there. It's

not I don't know. I don't I don't know that deep. Like in other words, like

that deep. Like in other words, like kind of what I say is like if you can make about $150,000 gross pre- steam cut revenue in the first six months, you you've got something to play with. You got

something that that's we talked last I relisted to our last time I talked about real est,000 gross revenue pre- steam cut in about 6 months, you're in a good spot.

Like you can work with it. That's the

minimum bar I'd say folks is just try and get into that and then everything else will happen. Okay. So, I'm dodging the question. Should we just go in and

the question. Should we just go in and talk about how to get to 100,000? Well,

it's it's okay to dodge the question or say like I'm not going to dodge it. You

didn't. You said you didn't know. Yeah,

exactly. And like what I'm trying to figure out here is I'm thinking about myself. Honestly, I'm thinking, okay,

myself. Honestly, I'm thinking, okay, I've got I knew I knew this was a Twisted Tower question. Okay. Yeah. It's

just my way of getting consultation from you for free. I I knew that going into this call. Yeah. No, no. I'm just

this call. Yeah. No, no. I'm just

sitting here thinking like, okay, I've got 100,000 wish lists. Um, we're almost there. Actually, we're not there yet.

there. Actually, we're not there yet.

And I'm like, okay, what does that mean in terms of performance? And in my head, I'm like,

performance? And in my head, I'm like, well, I need an overwhelmingly positive score because I've heard that that matters. And then you hear that it

matters. And then you hear that it doesn't matter, you know? Um, and then you hear, well, if you make this amount of money, um, then you're good to go and you're rock solid. It it's hard though

because it's like some people they dream of making $100,000 on their game and some people dream of making $2 million on their game relative to like you know how many games you've released and and

where you are in your career. And so

when you say if your game makes $150,000 you've got something to work with in my head I'm like well what does that mean exactly? You know does that mean you've got a you've got a gang

busters game on your hands or does that mean you're like better than most? you

know, no for you. Okay, so here's what's going to happen with you and probably your publisher. Good work. Good work.

your publisher. Good work. Good work.

This is no small task to get almost up to where you are. So, good work. Um,

here's what's going to happen is, and if your publisher's good, which I assume they are, um, you are going to push Valve in like the two weeks before

you're leading in, and you're going to be like, "Hey, can we get a popup?"

Because right around 100,000 is when you get the popup. So the popup is when you start Steam, there's a little popup like everybody close Steam and then start it up again and there'll be this popup. Not

the website, the the physical one. No, I

got you. I got you. And there'll be a popup. Typically those games, if it's a

popup. Typically those games, if it's a new release right around 100,000, but they don't give it right away. This is

the thing. This is what I'm saying.

Nobody knows. So I've worked with games that have done close to numbers like you and they reach out to Valve and they go, "Can we get a popup?" and Valve says they'll give you this really long paragraph answer multiple paragraph

answer and they be like but it basically comes down to we're going to see if you've got them you've got like if those wish lists are actually good wish lists because this is what I'm saying Valve doesn't know Valve doesn't actually know

if it's going to be converting they don't know and so what they do is they test your game and they're like we're going to put it out there and see how much you convert and what I mean again stop don't over interpret when I say convert they just want to see if you

make money okay they have some magic number I don't know what it is. I've

seen lots of games. So, there is a number. Yeah, there's no there I I don't

number. Yeah, there's no there I I don't know what it is. And if I try and predict it, I'll get it wrong and then people yell at me, but I I've seen I've seen games in your kind of situation. We

have 100,000. They're going in pretty hot. And I was like, "Hold on, let's

hot. And I was like, "Hold on, let's see." And then 4 hours later and Valve

see." And then 4 hours later and Valve sent the email that was like, "We'll see." And so they waited four hours, no

see." And so they waited four hours, no pop-up. And then Val's like, "Saw the

pop-up. And then Val's like, "Saw the numbers come in. Good." And they're like, "Okay, good." And then they got the pop-up. it happened because what

the pop-up. it happened because what Valve is looking at is if your servers hold up, there's no like the game doesn't start if you have an AMD chip or something. They're trying to see if

something. They're trying to see if there's no mega bugs. They want to see if it's converting well because that's very valuable real estate. And so they don't want to give this front page featuring to a game that's

like slobbering on itself and can't even stand up. And so they don't know.

stand up. And so they don't know.

They're like, "Yes, you got 100,000."

But that's not a guarantee to Valve even. So they're like, "Well, see, let's

even. So they're like, "Well, see, let's see what happens." And then but if they see the numbers convert then they slam on it and then you're you'll be front page. Okay. And so here's the thing and

page. Okay. And so here's the thing and this is when we talk about positive and overwhelmingly positive in what people say. You can be see here's the biggest

say. You can be see here's the biggest thing. The biggest thing is apathy. You

thing. The biggest thing is apathy. You

know they say the opposite of love isn't hate, it's contempt or something or apathy. That's why most games fail is

apathy. That's why most games fail is they're just like people are like I don't know. I'm just not going to buy

don't know. I'm just not going to buy it. I'll wait. That is death for most

it. I'll wait. That is death for most games. It's not that the game is bad.

games. It's not that the game is bad.

It's not that there's something terrible with the game. It's just people like and so you have to make what Valve is through a whole bunch of crazy algorithms what they're incentivizing.

And I'm not saying incentivizing in a in a bad way. They're just saying like we're only looking for games that have the energy where people will buy the game just like day one. They just want to buy it. Sure. And some games have it

and some games don't. And so this is where a lot of people are like, "Oh, I have 150 reviews and they're all positive, 100% positivity, but nobody's buying it because the only people who bought it and gave that 100 awesome

thumbs up view review are people super invested for whatever reason in the game and everybody else is like they don't hate it. Somebody played it and they're

hate it. Somebody played it and they're like, "Yeah, it's good enough." And they never left a review or people are just apathetic to the game and they never bought it in the first place. And so

they've got a low review. The number of purchases is low. The number of people who left a review is low, but those who did are 100% positive. So that will trip you up and make you think, "Oh my god, I

I do that." Valve does not care about review count. They they don't don't care

review count. They they don't don't care about like how positive a review. It's

just pure money, right? So some three practical things for people listening right now on the development side if people want to avoid a lukewarm game because like like you said, the goal is

to be hot or cold, not lukewarm. Um, for

the for people who are curious how how do I do that? Well, I would say you're asking a dirty marketer. It's art, man.

It's like this is the first marketer.

That's right. The first the first point I would say as an artist is number one, I had a friend of mine the other day ask me, should I use AI to help me with some project they're working on? And he was

like, that the the art that it's creating is just amazing. And I said, "Well, you know, sure, but like if all art is amazing and it all looks like that, then it's not amazing. It's just

lukewarm. Everyone's doing it." And

you'll find that in 5 years that you're really cool art that you put in your game that you thought was special, suddenly everybody else has it in their game, too. And you're wondering what

game, too. And you're wondering what happened. And it's like, well,

happened. And it's like, well, everybody, you're not some genius for doing an AI prompt. Thousands of other game developers know how to do it, too.

So that's my first thing is stay away from AI if you want it to be special. If

you want it to be special, that's just me. I'm not saying you would necessarily

me. I'm not saying you would necessarily agree with that. But

um number two, you want me to commentate on that? I will say, let me say my

on that? I will say, let me say my number two here is is go for it.

Publishers are great. Publishers are

great, but publishers can be fear driven. And when they're fear driven or

driven. And when they're fear driven or they're profit driven and they're trying to like 10x as opposed to 3x, which indies don't think that way. They're

like, "I would love to make 2x, but a lot of publishers are like, we got a 10x." When when publishers are fear-

10x." When when publishers are fear- driven, what happens is you find that so many decisions start coming down the pipeline that you start making stupid decisions for your game that turn it

into a gray, boring mess. So, that's

number two. And number three, stop asking social media what they think about your animated gifts and your videos and your footage and your loop and your hook and your character. I've

done this, by the I've done it all. Stop

pulling your audience because they don't know what you know as an artist. And

they're also you're also going to average everybody out. And the average is exactly that. It's going to be average. So those are my three things.

average. So those are my three things.

So do you have any thoughts on that really quick? Yeah. And this kind of

really quick? Yeah. And this kind of goes to and it's not just average, but I think it's also like engines nowadays are so good and your game can look amazing that um this is also where

people are like, "Oh, it's wish list inflation and stuff like that where your game in screenshots and video can look fantastic, but the game is not fun." And

so it used to be back in the AAA days and consoles, it was like whatever the best looking game, the the AAA's were always the best looking games. And so

they did very well. And so people but like a like a duckling that attached to the first thing they saw. We indies when we were growing up we attached to the best looking game is the best thing. So

a lot of indies are like we've got to make the best looking game but they forgot your game has to be fun. And I've

seen this so many times where a game is beautiful. It's using Unreal. A lot of

beautiful. It's using Unreal. A lot of those body cam games where that body cam footage stuff they look really cool but when you play them you're like blah. And

it's not even just AI. I just mean like in general like anything like even if they're you made their own assets and it looks really cool, but the game is not fun and it doesn't have a good loop and

it doesn't engage people to keep playing more and more. And I don't mean in sleazy like pay to win ways. I just mean like do I still want to keep playing this game? If it doesn't have the fun,

this game? If it doesn't have the fun, it is not going to do well. And it has nothing to do with graphics. I mean, it it has everything to do with graphics.

But the when you're in the pre-release stage, really good graphics can mask a problem. And that's where I see a lot of

problem. And that's where I see a lot of people who get 100,000 wishes cuz their graphics are amazing. And then they launch and people see really good graphics. So, they fill in like, "Oh, I

graphics. So, they fill in like, "Oh, I bet everything is going to happen with this game that's in my dreams because this game looks amazing." And when then they play it, they see the beginning and then they're like, "Oh, after that, behind that, it was nothing. There was

nothing to that game behind that." And

so the word gets out very fast for your game. This is why you don't see it. Word

game. This is why you don't see it. Word

gets out in the game and they're like, "It's not that good. It's kind of all just you saw everything in the screenshots and then there's nothing else to it." That's what I see happens all the time. Yeah. I heard uh Julian I

did a podcast with Julian Ball. He's

he's making a game called Lens Island. I

don't know if you've heard of it, but I I that podcast is launching just before this one launches. and he said uh he basically just said you know it's better

to just have proper expectations like don't don't try and be the greatest marketer you need to be equally a good marketer and equally delivering on the

promise of the marketing and if that means that you you bring the the polish of the marketing down a peg to match the the the actual game's quality you're

better off for it because and and you can also you can also anchor with price right you can just go, well, look, it's going to be 10 bucks. You're not going to maybe you make it super polished, but you say, look, the price is 10 bucks.

So, hopefully that gives people an idea of like what the quality of the game is, right? Yeah. And I think the good thing

right? Yeah. And I think the good thing about, and we can talk about it, I think demos are like the best way to do marketing because there's no lying behind it because it's like here's the game. Take it or leave it. Try it. If

game. Take it or leave it. Try it. If

you don't like it, let me know. That's

why uh for me, Chris, and then we'll move on to whether 30,000 or 100,000, but because I know we need to get to that, but for me, man, when I launched the the Twisted Tower demo in February

with NextFest, um I I I think I told my publisher, I said, "This is more terrifying than a real launch." And the reason why for me was we're 3 years into development, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on this game.

And now now, three years later, we're doing a demo. And the demo is like basically it's like the proof of concept. And so I don't know if I'm

concept. And so I don't know if I'm gonna be as terrified as I was or will be when I launched the full game because that demo, like I said, it's it's just this if it doesn't work, it won't,

right? I mean, maybe you can clean it up

right? I mean, maybe you can clean it up and try and make it better, but like if the core of the game, which is in the demo, doesn't work, I don't know. Is it

is is that a point where you say, "I'm not going to I'm not going to finish this thing, you know?" Yeah. I think

devs spend way too long working on their games. I this isn't a scientific thing,

games. I this isn't a scientific thing, but I have a feeling you the universe knows whether your game has it or not within like the first

month or two. Like you put it out there, if you get something out, it's the combination of the graphics, the the core concept, the core loop, the genre that melding that because that's what a

game is really, just all that. If you

melt those together and put it up and if nobody likes it in a month, it's not like, "Oh man, if I just polish up the the middle boss on the third level, that's going to turn things around." It

doesn't. It's either got it or not. And

you know it very fast. Very fast. Dude,

the the trouble with that though, my my little devil's advocate here comes from none other than Ken Lavine himself, which when he was on the podcast, he said, and maybe this is an outlier

situation, and it doesn't necessarily disprove what both of you, you and I are saying, he said that Bioshock sucked until the last week of development or two weeks. I think it was the last two

two weeks. I think it was the last two months of development. He said uh nobody understood it and they didn't get it and then all they had to do was change the first 15 minutes of the game and then it

all clicked. So I don't know if that's

all clicked. So I don't know if that's an outlier situation. I don't I don't like listening to very famous people who made very famous games because that's average. If I remember the thing

that's average. If I remember the thing that everybody the first time I heard about Bioshock and I don't remember when it was in the time frame and I don't remember where it was when he I don't know behind the scenes like how

developed they are but I remember when they did that live demo with Ken Lavine narrating and he was like this is a big daddy and there's a little sister and you don't not everything kills you right away. you can like interact with them

away. you can like interact with them and I can punch this guy and look at this water effect. Look at this water shader. It was that demo

shader. It was that demo that sold it to the world, right? And I

think I mean I don't remember when all that happened and I remember it may have happened. Yeah. Months prior to that

happened. Yeah. Months prior to that when that demo that's what I mean by like at that point the world knew this game was amazing and I think they delivered on that. Now, whether it was,

oh, we shifted around, it wasn't until the last month that it actually all came together. Who knows? But I think that

together. Who knows? But I think that concept of here's this giant big daddy and you can just walk up to him and it's okay and look at this water. That's what

sold it. And that they knew when as soon as they showed that, everybody was like, "Yes." Yeah. And I think I remember what

"Yes." Yeah. And I think I remember what you're talking about. Um, I was like, I think I was like 13. But, um, the same the same vibes the same vibes I'm

getting with We Harvest Shadows. I'm

just like, "Yeah, yeah, we're good."

Like, David's David's got it. And even

if he doesn't execute perfectly, he's still got it. You know what I mean? Um,

it's just that something. It has that something. You know what I mean? And I

something. You know what I mean? And I

can't tell you if you're like, "Well, Chris, do I have it or not?" I don't know. I'm a filthy marketer. Ask a poet.

know. I'm a filthy marketer. Ask a poet.

Ask a an artist or something. I'm not I don't know. I don't know what it is.

don't know. I don't know what it is.

It's just your job is to sell turds.

Basically, it's how do I get like the How can I market what do they say to salesmen? Sell this pen, right? How do

salesmen? Sell this pen, right? How do

you sell a pen? Like this is my my job is not that. My job is like, oh, you've got something. It's here. Here's all

got something. It's here. Here's all

this is the map to get you to the exit.

Like you have it. And this is why I don't I don't consult. Like I don't I don't do one-on-one consulting. I mean I do it for a podcast for you Toms. But the thing is like I can't and even a PR

company this is where a lot of devs hate PR and and they say oh it doesn't work is they have a turd and you can't do it.

You can't sell it. And that's the thing is like I I tell most devs like that's why I say you know it within a month or two. If you know it I can give you a

two. If you know it I can give you a plan. I know how to get you make sure

plan. I know how to get you make sure you hit all the right milestones marketing wise to get this game to launch. Yeah, I can tell you what to do

launch. Yeah, I can tell you what to do and I can tell you post launch if you have good sales what to do because that's important. The bad you can't sell

that's important. The bad you can't sell game. People are too smart on Steam.

game. People are too smart on Steam.

They know if your game sucks, there's nothing you can do. You can't fake it.

It either has it or it doesn't. Okay, so

that sort of breaks down the sort of uh initial thing we said earlier, which was okay, let's assume we have the it factor. We've got something. Now, let's

factor. We've got something. Now, let's

talk about This is great because it's like going all over the place and that's what I love about it. I love I love this podcast because that's usually what happens. But let's get back to the

happens. But let's get back to the 30,000 versus 100,000, right? I'll say

this. I was talking to Gavin, uh, creator of Choo Choo Charles, and he and I sort of agreed like 100,000 was a good goal for us as developers. This is going to sound really proud, and I promise I'm

not trying to, but this is our this is my third game. And also, Gavin has really high standards. Obviously, he's

made a he made Juju Charles and he's just got high standards. That's the

number that I always aim for lately is 100,000 to 150,000, but I want to hear your thought process on like for is that true for most devs. Should they aim for that or should they aim for something

lower? Not because their game sucks, but

lower? Not because their game sucks, but because like practically 30,000 will be just fine. Yeah, 30,000 will be just

just fine. Yeah, 30,000 will be just fine for most games. Because here's what happens. There's only so much

happens. There's only so much promotion Steam can do. Yes. the wish

list conversion and this is why people spend too much thinking about conversion well if I have 10% and this or that. So

the way Steam works is they're like they just give you enough and then they see if it does well like and one of the big things and you look everybody look who's launched a game look back at your previous game now Thomas your last couple games were many many like a

decade ago or something. Yeah. Yeah.

It's it's more now if you look at the twoe period when you actually make your game for sale 50% of your traffic will come from this thing called the

discovery queue. Mhm. And Discovery Q is

discovery queue. Mhm. And Discovery Q is Thunderdome. It's where they just drop

Thunderdome. It's where they just drop your game in and a they show your game randomly to people and if people click buy or wish list, I don't know what the metrics are, what they're looking at.

It's some machine learning algorithm, but if enough people do the right thing, Valve will keep showing you more and more. That's a big driver. And it has

more. That's a big driver. And it has nothing to do with wish list. I mean,

you get in there faster when you have more wish list and all this. And that's

why it doesn't matter once you get to about 30 to 100,000 you're it's diminishing returns like you've made enough and at this point Valve's like they push you as hard

as you can as soon as you get that popup there really isn't more that Valve can do like you have been in all the top spots it's it's like you've got first ply prize you're sitting on the top of

the podium it's not like there's a ladder with another podium on top of that or something you're maxed out and then it's just between you and God whether you're going to do well because

Then it's like Val's like, "We've we've given you everything. We've shown you everywhere. There's no more places to

everywhere. There's no more places to go." Yeah. And then at that point, it's

go." Yeah. And then at that point, it's like, "Does your game have legs? Do

people keep playing it? Do they keep recommending it?" It's it's then out

recommending it?" It's it's then out into into the public. It's like, "Do people recommend it? Do streamers keep playing it? Do they keep replaying it?"

playing it? Do they keep replaying it?"

And that's why it doesn't matter that much between 30,000 and 100,000. Yes. The difference between a

100,000. Yes. The difference between a 30,000 wish list game and a 100,000 wish list game is um that popup, but it's not that much better. Okay, Valve will not

give you a popup for 30,000 wish list.

They just won't. It's so discouraging.

It's so discouraging because at the end of the day, it at the end of the day, it's like you just got to make a good game, you know? That's what I tell you.

You're like, how do I make my game? It's

like, okay, well, don't make a bad one.

That's the first thing. And just don't everybody watching this. Yeah. If you

were thinking of making a bad game, click the thing in Unity that says bad game, uncclick that. There's a check box in Unity. I don't know if you guys saw

in Unity. I don't know if you guys saw it. It's like on this third tab that

it. It's like on this third tab that says good game or bad game. Uncheck bad

game. Just uncheck it. Okay. It's a

little secret. They don't tell you this stuff. You have to pay me a lot of

stuff. You have to pay me a lot of consulting dollars before I tell you about it. There's a little check box.

about it. There's a little check box.

Click uncclick bad game. Don't Some

people might say uh that's actually just Unity. There is no unchecked bad game.

Unity. There is no unchecked bad game.

It's only Unreal is the good game and then Unity is bad game. That's what a lot of people are saying these days. But

I don't, you know, it's kind of like a I was thinking about a metaphor to try and fully understand what you're saying about why why wish lists have this diminishing

returns. Is it something like

returns. Is it something like um like a big lighter versus a small lighter trying to like light a campfire?

It's like what matters is like how you set up the campfire and the kindling.

You need that lighter, which is some wish lists, right? And a and a good marketing plan, but you could have the world's biggest lighter with a ton of fuel in it. If you have crappy kindling

it and it's wet, you're just not you're going to keep trying to light it and you might get it to light every once in a while and make some money, but that's it. Is that a good metaphor? That that

it. Is that a good metaphor? That that

is an excellent metaphor. I've not heard of that metaphor, but it is excellent.

Yeah. your wish list count is the difference between once you get 30,000 it's like a big lighter like it's good it gets the job done you've got that 100,000 which is like one of those butane torches you know you like click

it and it's a torch like it's going to light the fuse it will light the fuse but is up to that pile of kindling which is your game that's not marketing that is your game that pile of wood and the kindling and whether you structured it

right so that you got the little fibers that light the bigger logs that light the bigger logs it's all down to that that initial spark You know, if you have under 10,000, you're just like rubbing

your hands together to try and start the fire. It's basically not going to

fire. It's basically not going to happen. So, before we move into how we

happen. So, before we move into how we get to 30,000, let's And we'll make it 30,000. So, that'll make it easier for

30,000. So, that'll make it easier for us. Before we get into that, why then

us. Before we get into that, why then should we get 30,000? Like just to fully clarify the importance of the beak lighter, is it really worth a

developer's time to go through your material, go through my material, and learn how to market their game prior to launch? Is it that important? Yeah, it

launch? Is it that important? Yeah, it

is because so Steam has been built to smother AI slop games, my first game, all that stuff. And the way Valve has

done those is they know like, oh well, if it's my first game, if I'm doing this as a school project, I don't know how to market. So Valve raises the minimum step

market. So Valve raises the minimum step to start marketing at a certain level.

And that's just to filter out the slop.

Okay? And the very very minimum is 10,000 wishes, 7,000, 10,000, I've even seen 5,000. That kind of range is that's

seen 5,000. That kind of range is that's what it minimum takes to get into uh popular upcoming and then to get there is that popular upcoming takes about 5 to 7,000. You'll know if you have it if

to 7,000. You'll know if you have it if you go to Steam DB and you have something called a wish list rank on Steam DB. That just means if you're in

Steam DB. That just means if you're in that if you got what's called a wish list rank. It just says number whatever

list rank. It just says number whatever out of whatever doesn't matter how big it is. You're going to probably get on

it is. You're going to probably get on popular upcoming. It depends on how many

popular upcoming. It depends on how many games you're launching with really a minimum bar. And that's to Valve just

minimum bar. And that's to Valve just does that so that you rise above the AI slop my first game hobbyists. Okay. So,

what am I looking for here on Steam DB?

And I'll I'll put Go look at your game and then scroll down to there's one called charts and then you scroll down there'll be this little box and it says how many followers you have and then right next right under followers it says

number blank in games. You've I know you have it for your game. I I would think so. Oh, wait. No, it's not there

so. Oh, wait. No, it's not there anymore. It's different. Um, so it's now

anymore. It's different. Um, so it's now I can actually share my screen here so you can see it. And I love Steam DB.

Yep. Okay. So it's not here, it's right here. Yeah. See where it says number

here. Yeah. See where it says number four? What is it? 12. Yeah. Um, that

four? What is it? 12. Yeah. Um, that

means you've got it. You're you're going to appear in popular upcoming. Now

that's obvious for you. But um, if you don't have if you're checking at home, everybody at home, and it just says follower account, but there's no number that, right? You're not there yet. You

that, right? You're not there yet. You

got to work a little bit harder. So you

do have to get that minimum playing field. And we can debate whether that's

field. And we can debate whether that's right or not, but that's Valve's minimum way of keeping the AI slop at bay. Okay.

Now, the 30,000, see, after this, you want to get to new and trending because you do popular upcoming. And then once you launch, if you sell, and I don't know the number, and again, it depends on how many other games are launching

next to you. But in general, I've seen games that get they sell about $8,000 worth of their game within the first 24, 48 hours. If you sell

8,000ish, it's not specific. None of

this stuff on Steam is specific. It's

like kind of based on the other games compared. You get into this new thing

compared. You get into this new thing called new and trending. That's the next thing. And that is tricky to get $8,000

thing. And that is tricky to get $8,000 worth in a short period of time. So, you

need that buffer space. You need a bunch of people who are going to buy it on day one. And that's what having more wish

one. And that's what having more wish list does is it it gets you in there.

And a lot of publishers say, "Oh, we want 30,000 wish list." That's kind of the publisher secret goal. I I've talked to a lot of publishers. There's no magic algorithm for that. It's just that

at 30,000 whether your conversion rate is 1% which I've seen 5% 10% 15 20 anywhere in that range. Don't somebody

at home do the calculations anywhere in that range you're probably going to get around $8,000 when you convert that many depending on your range because publishers know like oh games convert at different amounts. Okay. Right. And so

different amounts. Okay. Right. And so

the higher your wish list count going into it, the better chances you're going to show up in the new trending. And then

you're in the new and trending. And then

you get a lot of visibility from that.

And then you're getting into other things at the same time. And so

basically getting more wish list is more like an insurance policy. It's like the more wish list I have, the more likely even if I have a weaker conversion rate, I'm still going to hit those kind of numbers to keep me on the right track.

That's why you glect wish lists. But

after that, after new and trending, after your popup, it's kind of again, that's where I say it's like you did the best you can and then it's up to you and God. Like whatever whatever happens

God. Like whatever whatever happens there from there on out, it's like does do streamers keep playing your game? Do

people keep telling their friends? And

again, that that 30,000 wishes thing is kind of like you're collecting more friends who could tell their friends and it starts the dominoes. Okay? And so

that's why 30,000 is kind of that thing, that number that a lot of publishers will say to you. There's nothing in the Steam algorithm says if you have 30,000 wishes this happens. It's just it's just

more likely to have good stuff happen.

It's probably it's probably just their experience with launching games. They

probably just found that to be and that's that's that's the number I used to shoot for. In my head though, to be completely honest with everybody, my goal is to do a $2 million game. So that

that might be why I'm aiming for a hundred to 200,000 wish list because like I want to shoot for the moon this time. Um, whereas with my previous

time. Um, whereas with my previous games, they could they they supported my family. They they brought in hundreds of

family. They they brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars and I launched with I think 25,000 with my with Neverong.

Now, Neverong didn't blow up on Steam, but it did really well in Apple Arcade.

So, that's not really a good comparison, but I can go to Pinstripe here.

Pinstripe I launched with 7,000 wish lists, but again, probably a decade ago.

Different game you're playing. Yes. Yes.

And but that game did hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so, you know, I I think I think you're right. I think

that I think people might overvalue wish lists. But anyway, let's let's let's aim

lists. But anyway, let's let's let's aim for 30,000. Now, how do we get there as

for 30,000. Now, how do we get there as a nobody? What's the what's the plan

a nobody? What's the what's the plan here? Okay, what you want to do is

here? Okay, what you want to do is there's kind of two routes. If your game is beautiful, looks great, put together, start tweeting it out. Okay, just start tweeting out images and you're just

trying to see, do people pick it up? And

it has to look really good. Not all

games do this, but if your game looks good, if you're trying to be a beautiful game, like you're like, I am an artist.

I used to be an AAA artist and I'm really good at art and this is our specialty, you tweet out those images and put on Tik Tok or YouTube. And what

I mean by YouTube is just like here's a clip of me working with this water shader and you see if it takes off and sometimes it just does. Okay? And then

you've got kind of some knowledge that something is good happening here. Okay?

Then what I would do is don't launch your Steam page yet, but make an awesome trailer. And then here's the first thing

trailer. And then here's the first thing is I would go for the big shows like um PC gaming show which happens in June and there's one in December. I think there's Jeff Keley show which is in June.

There's one coming up. You have to do this months in advance. You can't do it now. It's too late now. Their show is

now. It's too late now. Their show is already booked. Like they know

already booked. Like they know everything that's going to be said. All

the trailers are done. We're talking

like February time frame. You got to do like four months before. But if you've got a pretty game and the concept is neat, like you went viral on social media. What I mean by viral on social

media. What I mean by viral on social media is like you got a thousand retweets or something whatever something went crazy because I've had people go like I think we went viral on Twitter and then I'm

like well how did you do and they're like we got 50 likes. We went viral. I'm

like good.

I'm proud of you. You did good. But

that's not I'm talking like a thousand retweets. It comes out of the woodwork.

retweets. It comes out of the woodwork.

You get into that show, you have your Steam page. You say, "You're going to

Steam page. You say, "You're going to get the You go, you reach out to Jeff Keley and all these people and you say, "We're going to be announcing our game.

This will be the first world premiere."

You make an awesome trailer and it has to be a good trailer. Okay? You take

that awesome trailer, you get it, and if your game has that as viral, oh, and you would also say like, "We went viral. We

got 100 million views on TikTok or whatever it is, you know, it's got to be big." You go to them and you say, "This

big." You go to them and you say, "This is all the stuff we did." And they're like, "We like you." If you're really cool, it can be free. They'll do it for free because they they always leave a couple spots for these really cool indie

games and they'll just give you for free. Yep. If you don't if you don't get

free. Yep. If you don't if you don't get them for free, you have to pay like 10, 20, $30,000 to these. I'm not saying that's for everybody, but Okay. So,

that's why you have to be viral, awesome, looking good. You got in there and that's a good kickstart. And what

they'll do is you'll be in the show and I I recommend everybody watch the uh the next one the Jeff Keley show game I think it's called Next or something like that. Um whatever it's called. It's like

that. Um whatever it's called. It's like

Jeff just search Jeff Keelley's summer program. Summerfest I think it's called

program. Summerfest I think it's called Summerfest. Let me see Summerfest. Um PC

Summerfest. Let me see Summerfest. Um PC

gaming show. Watch both of those. Just

look at the quality of the trailers.

Look at those games. They're looking

great. Okay. That's what you're trying to do. Just to see that sense. That's a

to do. Just to see that sense. That's a

good kickstart. And everything just kind of tumbles from there because after that then after that show premieres there will be Tik Tok people talking about your game. There'll be like streamers

your game. There'll be like streamers all this stuff happens and what you do is now your page is live. You're getting

those can bring in like 30 to 40,000 wish lists right there just appearing on that show. And then from there you just

that show. And then from there you just start applying to all these shows. And

if you go to how toarketame.comfestestivals, you're at

toarketame.comfestestivals, you're at this quality where people will just put you in their shows and you apply. how

tomarketaggame.comfestivals. We curate

this. It's a list of shows and festivals. You apply if you're that

festivals. You apply if you're that quality, that good, you just apply and they let you in. They're like, "Here it is. Come on in. You're good. Come on

is. Come on in. You're good. Come on

in." And so, you need a demo with these with these festivals. Do you need a demo live on stage? Sometimes. Sometimes not.

Sometimes you're so pretty. They're

like, "You know what? You don't even have a demo. just come on in. We're

going to feature you just trailer and your Steam page will feature you, but you look cool. And what you do is you apply like we're on Jeff Keley show. We

got most viral tweet of the day, you know, like all this stuff. That's not a thing. I just mean like look at how

thing. I just mean like look at how viral our tweet went. That's not like there's some site that's like viral tweet of the day. No, I just mean like you had a really viral presence, all that stuff. And you just coast your way

that stuff. And you just coast your way to victory. And I, you know, you just

to victory. And I, you know, you just you could do a demo for NextFest, but it depends if you want to. I I think you should do a demo just because like what we were talking earlier, those could be fake. Like your

game could look beautiful, but your game's not fun. And a demo will blow away the king's clothes. You know, the king's not wearing any clothes or anything. That's what a demo will do for

anything. That's what a demo will do for you is be like, you ain't got nothing here. There's not, you know, like your

here. There's not, you know, like your game looks pretty, but your game's not fun. That can happen. And so you don't

fun. That can happen. And so you don't you can get to the 30 to 40,000. You

could get to 100,000 just living off trailers and video clips and and screenshots. Yeah. But your sales will

screenshots. Yeah. But your sales will evaporate if your game is not fun to play. It could be like, man, the

play. It could be like, man, the controls are janky. These are terrible controls. That can happen. Totally

controls. That can happen. Totally

happen. Well, I've heard you say I've I've heard you say, Chris, that people should should keep their demo reviews public, which I did that on accident.

And I woke up the next morning when I launched the Twisted Tower demo. And I

think I was sitting at like uh 83% or something, which was really disappointing to me. Uh I was hoping for like 92. And it was it was terrifying

like 92. And it was it was terrifying because I was like, I didn't know you could have reviews for demos, but you can. It's by default public. Um and most

can. It's by default public. Um and most people are turning them off. Um, but I kept them on and eventually it went up to 90 uh 90%. Um, but it was so valuable to me because I read the negative

reviews and even though they're painful to read, they tell you exact they pretty much just road map for you. Here's how

you get your game to be awesome when you launch it. So, definitely keep those

launch it. So, definitely keep those open even though it's scary. What

happens is when you um I don't know if you remember, but when you first create the demo, there's a button on there now on Steam. You say create the demo, and

on Steam. You say create the demo, and there's a little pop-up that says, "Do you want to do a separate demo page or do you just want to put your demo on your main page?" And when you do separate page, that's where the demos

are. The demo reviews come in. And I

are. The demo reviews come in. And I

agree, Steam shoppers are very savvy like this. Steam is hardcore audience.

like this. Steam is hardcore audience.

They know games. They've played more games than you have. They know the genre. They know all the tropes. and

genre. They know all the tropes. and

they will be very honest with you. And I

always recommend keep those reviews up because it's honest. So I mean it sounds like too I mean I've I've listened to your podcast and you're kind of like what do I do with Twisted Tower or is it

those reviews that kind of brought you back to reality or something or what? Oh

that's thanks for asking.

Um, I think that, um, when we ran into budget when we ran into budget issues last year with my publisher, and I've said this a thousand times, but the the budget was cut for the game. It I got

really insecure about the whole thing, you know? I was like, what? Wait, what's

you know? I was like, what? Wait, what's

going on? Like, and it was just 2024 sucked. Um, basically for for studios.

sucked. Um, basically for for studios.

So, they were just like, look, we got to cut the budget.

But what I thought was I was like, I'm just making a indie Bioshock, so like it's nothing new. And so you hear all the time, you got to make something new.

It's got to be fresh. It's got to be really special. And when I launched the

really special. And when I launched the demo, what I heard people saying was, and this was to my surprise, and this hopefully helps people right now who are kind of making a a reskin of a game.

What I found was there is an audience for that. There is actually an audience

for that. There is actually an audience on Steam for people who are like, "No, no, no. I I want to play a Bioshock

no, no. I I want to play a Bioshock indie game. That's I I'm totally fine

indie game. That's I I'm totally fine with this feeling like a light version of Bioshock cuz I just like that stuff.

That's like saying there isn't a market for Little Caesar's pizza. It's like no, like that's there's plenty of people who want to spend $5 on a Little Caesar's

Pizza, you know? Um, and so I was really encouraged by the reviews of the demo because it told me that my initial gut feeling of it's okay to make a

storydriven immersive sim that's hearkens back to 2008. It's totally fine to do that. And my gut was correct, at least in the demo. So, I'm I'm really encouraged by that. And I think I just lost sight of it because I got so

obsessed with creating frameworks as to how to create a great game. And you know this feeling of like you try and put together a framework of like how to explain what makes a game work. And I

thought I thought that great games were just solely hook driven. And I'm like not necessarily. It could also just be

not necessarily. It could also just be an execution of a previous genre that just works. Oh, I I totally agree. I

just works. Oh, I I totally agree. I

think indies have gotten Hook Mania too much. like they think every game has to

much. like they think every game has to be the most crazy original thing. And I

think another thing that I think is a real problem that somehow indies got this lesson is uh genre mixing where they're like it's this and this and they're like that is very hard because

when you do the this plus this like oh man it's a it's a rhythm game mixed with a horror game mixed with a dating sim mixed with you know a farming sim mixed

and you're just like whoa whoa whoa that is nobody wants to hear that and like strange when you say that stuff on social media people go oh that's so funny and they like it and they retweet and they're like this man it's such a

good funny idea that's so funny and then it kind of goes crazy like and people are like oh we're on a good idea but then when it launches people are like what I don't even I don't like any of

these I like one of these games and so I think both social media's prominence in marketing which is recent folks people used to be able to market stuff before there was social media um when social

media kind of could make these games go viral that kind of warped people's brains to think oh it has to be the most hookie, craziest, viral idea. It's not.

It's It's You can find these needs. And

I think it's actually better to stick to a genre. I always write about this, like

a genre. I always write about this, like stick to a genre. Hit the genre tropes right dead in the in the eye. It's I

think that's better than trying to be crazy and mixing up stuff. I That's what uh Thomas Mer, the creator of um uh Ori in the Blind Forest, I had him on and he he agrees with you. is it's just like

he's just like I he said in in a really thick Arnold Schwarzenegger uh German accent um he said uh he doesn't care. He

his his goal is bringing pushing a genre forward. So like very very similar to

forward. So like very very similar to what you said which is hit the genre and don't even don't execute on it perfectly, execute on it better than

other games in that genre. It doesn't

mean you throw a twist in there.

Although look, a hook a hook is valuable and it helps market the thing. At the

end of the day though, it's like look, if you're passionate about Metroid Vania games, make just make the best one out

there. Um, I think it's that simple. Um,

there. Um, I think it's that simple. Um,

so yeah, that's where my head is. No,

that's good good insight. So I I don't know. So um, okay, so we go back to how

know. So um, okay, so we go back to how you get 100,000 wish list. Yeah. So,

basically that you you said like a big huge uh just to recap here, climb on a giant's shoulders. That was one of the

giant's shoulders. That was one of the ways, right? Which is Jeff Keley and

ways, right? Which is Jeff Keley and poor guy, he's going to get a ton of emails.

Um but here's the thing, folks. Like

before you go try and find Jeff Keley, did you tweet about the game and did it go viral? If it did, maybe. And again,

go viral? If it did, maybe. And again,

it can't be like, "Oh, we went we went viral. We got 50 likes." No, it's got to

viral. We got 50 likes." No, it's got to be like so crazy. Maybe somebody wrote an article about you. They're like,

sometimes like Kotaku or some one of these sites will be like, "Oh, look at this crazy game and it's just like a gift they posted." If they'll tweet.

Yeah. Yeah. They'll do that sometimes.

Um, okay. But that's not all games. In

fact, that's a very slim portion. If

that didn't happen, and most games don't because most games aren't that visually amazing, you got to go with the demo. So, if you tried it, you tweeted about the game and

everything happened. Nothing happened.

everything happened. Nothing happened.

What I would do is announce your game, get a trailer, try and get into this is if your game's not super pretty, trying to get uh you can reach out to IGN with a trailer. Still make a trailer, still

a trailer. Still make a trailer, still hold back your Steam page, but reach out to IGN with a really good trailer of gameplay. Get them to see if they'll

gameplay. Get them to see if they'll post it. They'll either put it on their

post it. They'll either put it on their main channel or game trailers, which is their kind of like subsidiary smaller one. That can do pretty good. You can

one. That can do pretty good. You can

sometimes get like 5 to 6,000 wish list off that. And that's just a good start.

off that. And that's just a good start.

And really what you're trying to do are these big things. I see too many indies, they're like, I tweet and I tweet and I tweet and I post on Reddit every month and I don't get anywhere. It's like it's

not going to happen brick by brick. It

happens in giant moments. And those big moments are like the announce of your game. And then the next one is the

game. And then the next one is the launch of your demo. So even if your game's not pretty, like you're like a programmer, you're like, "Chris, I'm a programmer. I am terrible at art. I'm

programmer. I am terrible at art. I'm

using cinti low poly art." That's why it's called Cinty. Like I've got low poly art. Okay, that's okay. Cinty art

poly art. Okay, that's okay. Cinty art

is all right. It's getting a little long in the tooth. I think people are getting a little caught on to Cinty, but that's still okay. If you're that

still okay. If you're that case, you can now launch the demo. And

this is what I recommend is just get that demo out. And actually, I I actually just wrote I've done a three-part series just on it.io. I would say if you're not an

it.io. I would say if you're not an artist, but you've got a deep game, really fun, systematic, fun to play game

for free in its current state, put it on it.io and see what happens. I have seen a number of games go viral. And I'll tell you what viral

viral. And I'll tell you what viral means on itch. Like if you post on and then somebody finds some streamer finds your demo and it gets like you don't

even have a Steam page and it just gets like a spike of like a thousand views to your page or you got like like 25,000

lifetime views in a short period of time. That's a good sign. That's the

time. That's a good sign. That's the

equivalent of going viral on Twitter, but because your game's fun to play, not good-looking. Got it. You can actually,

good-looking. Got it. You can actually, that's a good sign that something good is happening. You can just polish up

is happening. You can just polish up that demo, put it out on Steam, and then you just reach out to streamers and you just keep reaching out to streamers and you apply for festivals. That's how you do it. And it's again, it's these big

do it. And it's again, it's these big moments. It's like this streamer played

moments. It's like this streamer played us, and then our wish list count went crazy. It happens in leaps. It doesn't

crazy. It happens in leaps. It doesn't

happen brick by brick. Well, let me, if you don't mind, can I confirm confirm what you're saying here? Yeah. Um, so

this is this is Twisted Tower. There you

are. Um, this is Thomas. Devlog. Devlog.

Devlog. Tweet. Tweet. Tweet. Tweet.

Tweet. So, we're looking at what we've got almost 1,000 followers here, which is probably the equivalent of like 20,000 or 15,000 wish lists or something. Yep. Um, then this was a what

something. Yep. Um, then this was a what event? Boom. So, you're right. So, that

event? Boom. So, you're right. So, that

brought us to around Yep. 20,000 wish

lists. Tweet. Tweet. Tweet. Devlog.

Devlog. Devlog. Devlog. Devlog. And like

I think people will recognize here. It's

not that this isn't valuable. It's just

like be okay with it being very slow.

Like, you know, we got I got an additional thousand over the course of eight months of tweeting and I have a big following, you know. I know. Yeah.

People are like, people always say that like, but I has no following. You never

need a following. Like, don't start a YouTube channel. Yeah. And market your

YouTube channel. Yeah. And market your name. Do not. It is too much work,

name. Do not. It is too much work, folks. Right. And a lot of people

folks. Right. And a lot of people probably they wonder, well, why what then why does Thomas do YouTube or why does Chris do YouTube? It's like, well, we sell educational material. Sucks. I

don't YouTube. I do YouTube. And there I I do this is an educational channel. I

don't sell my games here, you know. Um,

so anyway, the the the revenue model is not games for my channel. But anyway, so if we look at look right here, what's this? Boom. Demo, right? And so that's

this? Boom. Demo, right? And so that's where when that was the launch of your demo, right? Launch of the demo. And

demo, right? Launch of the demo. And

then NextFest was like right here. So I

did I actually launched the demo two weeks prior to NextFest which was frowned on, but it actually worked. Um

yeah, it's Well, Thomas, you have a good-looking game. Like I think your

good-looking game. Like I think your game is is is equivalent to that. If

Thomas still even saw the launch of his demo was his biggest moment that that everybody else should be doing this like even if your game's not good-looking.

And I have seen a spike like that from other games. It's like if if you look at

other games. It's like if if you look at a Bellatro or something, that game is not like if you showed a screenshot of Bellatro and you didn't know what it was, you're like, "This is some kid's poker game." You It's like, but I don't

poker game." You It's like, but I don't know, man. I actually I've heard several

know, man. I actually I've heard several people say that. It's It's kind of a divisive conversation about the look. I

actually love the look. I think it's really edgy and and colorful. I'm not

sure if that's what you're saying, but some people don't like it, but if you were out of context, just looked at a picture of Bilatro, it would not be there. Now, it's hard to see with that

there. Now, it's hard to see with that because Bellatro is so big that it has warped the graph. So, if you can filter Steam DB down to just pre-launch.

Uh-huh. Let's see here. The graph will look much more. It's just that the the there will be a tiny one pixel. How can

you do that? Let's see. I don't know if SteamD can do that. Is there I think Well, it says it says the launch is February 20th, 2024. So, this is right

here. Okay. So, this was launch um

here. Okay. So, this was launch um February 19th. Yep. So that's launch.

February 19th. Yep. So that's launch.

Literally this guy, he he had 9,000 followers, which is good. Like that's

like 100 what? 170 60,000 wish list.

Yeah, that's like 100,000 wish list. And

so like you can imagine what this guy's day was like or like weeks where he's like he probably went into this thinking maybe we'll make some money. Like maybe

we'll make like 300 grand, which it sounds like a lot to people, but like it once it's all said and done, you spend it in two years and then you're done. So

this guy though, he probably had the greatest I mean he's still having the greatest year of his life. This is like this is like interviewing Ken Lavine.

You're not going to have a Botro. You

cannot predict having a Bellatro. Just

hope to get 30 to 100,000. This is where I said it's like this is up to God at that point. Once you get to the level of

that point. Once you get to the level of Battro, it is just it's a magic thing.

You can't even predict that. You can't

plan for that. There's nothing you can do for that. Okay. So everybody

know my favorite examples are people who make like you just barely get into real because that is you should aim for

that. You can't predict the Bellatros or

that. You can't predict the Bellatros or the Powell Worlds or the Wukong whatevers. You you plan for like just a

whatevers. You you plan for like just a nice base hit and hope that you get a home run. I think that's great. I I love

home run. I think that's great. I I love the way you're thinking there and I I I'm really fascinated by this game called Blueprints. Um I don't know if

called Blueprints. Um I don't know if you've heard about Blueprints, but yeah, I know Blueprints. Yeah. You know, look at the followers around 100,000 wish list. Basically, we're at 6,000

list. Basically, we're at 6,000 followers. Um but I wonder what this was

followers. Um but I wonder what this was here. It was probably some event, you

here. It was probably some event, you know, or maybe the demo launch. I don't

know. But yeah, I don't I haven't dug into blueprints and where they came from. I heard an interview with the

from. I heard an interview with the developer. I can't remember where, but

developer. I can't remember where, but boom. That's crazy. just went

boom. That's crazy. just went

skyrocketed. But another thing to note here, sorry to derail you here, but one of the things that people always forget, including myself, you're always aiming for the wish lists for a launch, but

what you don't realize is the moment you launch, you get this huge burst of more wish lists, right? Assuming it goes well. Yeah. Um so, so that's what

well. Yeah. Um so, so that's what happened here. Yep. And the other thing

happened here. Yep. And the other thing to know, folks, is that when you launch, you get about three times the daily traffic than you did pre-launch, just

just visits. Because NAV will always,

just visits. Because NAV will always, even if your game didn't sell well, will always show you more post-launch because they know that they're going to get some

money. Like when they show when Valve

money. Like when they show when Valve shows your game pre-launch, that's valuable real estate they're giving to somebody who might not even finish the game. So Valve always reduces the amount

game. So Valve always reduces the amount of visibility you get until you go on sale. Just keep that in mind. All right.

sale. Just keep that in mind. All right.

So you were talking about demo and how valuable that is and how it's all done in bursts. Uh can you can you speak to

in bursts. Uh can you can you speak to like demo launch and how how to launch a demo like when and how and how long it should be and what to expect? Yeah. And

here's the thing folks and people are always like, "Oh, marketing changes all the time. The algorithm is going crazy.

the time. The algorithm is going crazy.

It's all all different. Everything's

different. Every day is different." No,

it's not. Like slow down. slow down

everybody. Everybody thinks genre changes. Everybody thinks like the

changes. Everybody thinks like the genres change like every month or the algorithm changes. It doesn't change

algorithm changes. It doesn't change that much folks. Like I first found out about festivals and demos and launching a demo to get streamers back basically

in 2019. Like it wasn't until the p

in 2019. Like it wasn't until the p pandemic that we really figured out this thing. So for the five years my advice

thing. So for the five years my advice has been the same. Get that demo out.

Get the demo out and launch it. For most

folks, even though I talked about pretty games, for most people, they're going to get their visibility from launching a demo. And that has not changed since

demo. And that has not changed since 2019. So, marketing doesn't actually

2019. So, marketing doesn't actually change that much. People think it hasn't changed since the '9s, though, Chris, cuz this was how they did it in the '90s. They had they had CDs in magazines

'90s. They had they had CDs in magazines and it was demos and they didn't have f I mean, I guess getting into a festival is the equivalent of getting on one of those CD packs or something. Lighting

into a festival is like getting the front page of PC Gamer when the there'll be a thing but trials like letting people try things. That is an age-old marketing tactic. Give them a taste and

marketing tactic. Give them a taste and they'll if they like it, they'll buy it.

That's what's happening here. Yeah. And

so really folks, it has not changed that much. I think like it feels like it

much. I think like it feels like it changed because you didn't know how marketing worked and then you learned how marketing worked and like they changed. the person who's learning

they changed. the person who's learning how to do something changed and so they're like it's changing all the time.

I thought it was Twitter. I thought

Twitter used to be the thing. No, it was like you used to think that you just learned you learned something. So you

changed internally. It's not the every the world changed it. That's a different psychological thing we could work on later. But anyways, so here's the deal.

later. But anyways, so here's the deal.

What you do is I can't remember where we going. Where we Well, we're going

going. Where we Well, we're going with we're talking about demos. Okay, so

specifically launching your demo.

Launching it. launching the demo like when to do it, how to do it, how long should the game be, what to expect, all that stuff. Yeah. So, this slightly

that stuff. Yeah. So, this slightly changed. Okay. I used to say when you

changed. Okay. I used to say when you made your demo, just throw it up there.

Push the launch demo button and throw it up there. This has changed a little bit,

up there. This has changed a little bit, Valve. So, so many people launching the

Valve. So, so many people launching the demo and they do this thing called the prolactic. Don't ask it. The Prollectric

prolactic. Don't ask it. The Prollectric

really, it still works, but I I have a feeling it's going away. people do these weird hack things to launch a demo and Valve's like actually anytime somebody does these like behind the scenes kind

of hacks to Steam Valve goes oh well that actually does work we'll just make it legitimate and so what Valve does is legitimize things that people used to be doing as a hack and so the prologue

trick was basically a hack and so Valve made it a legitimate thing and that's basically when you launch your demo if you get enough well you can push a button now and everybody who wishlisted

your game pre-demo gets an email that says a demo has launched for a game.

That's awesome. That's like a wish list firing before you go and set which is huge. That's new. So you the main change

huge. That's new. So you the main change is you you got to be very careful with the launch of your demo. Don't just

launch it cuz you're like it's done. I'm

just going to launch it. Boom. Right.

You have to be strategic about the launch of your demo. That's right. And

here's the big change. Demos can now chart on the front page of Steam. So, if

you go on the front page of Steam and you click this tab, you scroll down a little bit, like half halfway down the page, there's a thing. It's like new and trending, popular coming. There's a tab

on the end called um popular free, new and new and trending free. I think it's called new and trending free. Click

that. Your demo could show up there and you get a lot of visibility from that.

But you have to get in my kind of rough numbers, you get about 90 concurrent players. We're still trying to figure

players. We're still trying to figure out how much it takes to get on there.

And it depends on how many other games are launching their demo with you cuz it's ranked. My bet is it's like 90

it's ranked. My bet is it's like 90 concurrent players and that's a pretty good chance to get on there. Now, this

is where you should be gathering wish list ahead of time. And I said the best way to get wish list is to launch a demo, but you need wish list to trigger so that people get on to new and trending. You see how it's chicken and

trending. You see how it's chicken and egg? What you do now is you do pro play

egg? What you do now is you do pro play tests because you could do a play test, get a streamer to play your play test, get people to play it, wish list your game, gather a bunch of wish lists. I

don't know how, don't ask me. And then

how many you need when you launch your demo, hopefully you get enough people, you get on to new and trending free. You

also should line up streamers so they play your demo when you launch it. You

got to do a marketing beat. And now you make a big big event out of launching your demo. And

let's clarify really quick just to make sure because I want people to be fully clear here or fully understand you.

You're saying that there's a pre-demo which is basically that testing. You can

do a a test play test. It's a a public play test.

Now, will that potentially hurt the demo? Because it's effectively a public

demo? Because it's effectively a public demo and you're going to lose you're going to cannibalize the potential impact of a demo. No. in in for the most part and this is a thing that a lot of

people get wrong about Steam. They're

like they're very cautious about like they're thinking if I do this there's no back seats like people will know about my game. It's the same fear that people

my game. It's the same fear that people always have where they're like should I talk about my game cuz somebody could steal my idea ski idea. That is the same mentality of should I put my demo out

cuz then people will play it and then they won't want my game anymore. It's

the same mentality folks. You do not realize how big Steam is. Steam is

infinitely large. Okay? You could have the number one game on Steam. You could

be like Blueprints and you could go to a random person who's a gamer on the street just be like, "Have you heard of Blueprints?" And they be like, "Blue?

Blueprints?" And they be like, "Blue?

Are you saying Blueprints or Blue Prince? What are you saying?" And

Prince? What are you saying?" And

they're like, "Yeah, it's Blueprints.

It's the biggest game on Steam." I have found games. I do deep scrapes. I found

found games. I do deep scrapes. I found

a game that's popular and I'm like, "What is this game?" And then I dig down. I was like, "Wa, this is like the

down. I was like, "Wa, this is like the most popular game." It is infinitely large the player base. So, you

cannot show your game off too much. It

is impossible at our scale to show off your game too much. And so, you should do the play test. And yes, the people play your play test will be like, "Yeah, I know about it. I don't need to play

the demo." But it doesn't matter because

the demo." But it doesn't matter because those people I see then feed the next round of those people. You're always

trading up your audience. And it's not, you cannot people always be like, "We're going to tire out our audience." Gamers

will get tired of hearing me. No, you

when you do anything like you were talking about those jumps and and it is infinitely large. Infinitely. There are

infinitely large. Infinitely. There are

39 million people on Steam right now just with the browser open with the Steam browser. 39 million. You people do

Steam browser. 39 million. You people do not understand how big Steam is. And so

you can never exhaust that audience. You

have to change your brain. Everybody

change your brain to start unless unless I think about AI and I think about you I I've heard your talks about scraping up the drudge from the ocean of

steam. If the algorithm somehow changes

steam. If the algorithm somehow changes and it just starts pulling up all this crap and promoting that, I think we have a problem where like you can get I don't

know. I guess what I'm saying is we do

know. I guess what I'm saying is we do rely heavily on Steam promoting things properly, right? And so I I don't know.

properly, right? And so I I don't know.

I worry that yes, the the the ocean of Steam is massive, but I do sometimes worry about like the audience that Steam will give

me that sliver. I don't want to cannibalize that. Is that a ne is that a

cannibalize that. Is that a ne is that a reasonable fear? No. And that's a whole

reasonable fear? No. And that's a whole thing that Steam's doing. That's why

they do the new and trending free is they're like trying to introduce it to a new thing and then you'll also show up in things like discovery queue when discovery Q is specific to show you to new people who have never heard of you.

It is like and that's the thing is Steam want your game to be a hit. That's the

thing is like they make money. People

have an adversarial relationship.

They're like what does Steam change the algorithm? They want you to sell your

algorithm? They want you to sell your video game. Like they want you to do

video game. Like they want you to do well. And so that's the thing is like

well. And so that's the thing is like the play test if you do well and it feels good like you're getting more wishlist and Valve's like you got something here. Let's let's spice it up.

something here. Let's let's spice it up.

Let's let's keep going. So they just don't like remember what remember motivations like you said oh no they might dredge up the AI. Why would Valve do that? Because they've worked so hard

do that? Because they've worked so hard to suppress the AI slob. Why would they all of a sudden like ah let's just for fun just turn on the AI slob. Why would

they do that? That makes no sense. Yeah.

And it makes me think about, just as a side note here, how I've been, dude, be completely honest, I've been paranoid for the last two years about AI games

and AI sort of taking over Steam. And

I'm like, "Yeah, but I this it doesn't benefit, like you're saying, it doesn't benefit Steam at all to showcase games

that feel tired and boring and and like AI slop games. The they're going to pro just purely because of capitalism, they're going to promote great games.

And so, at the end of the day, just make a great game, right? Valve has already figured out the AI slop thing. like they

they solved this. Have they really?

Yeah, they've already solved it like um like in 2019 like that was when they really instituted the like you need 7,000 wish list to get into the new and

trending and all this popular upcoming stuff like but they weren't doing AI slot. They were just thousands of people

slot. They were just thousands of people were just making these cheap games and throwing them up on Steam. So Valve

solved that problem. They didn't even have to really change the algorithm.

That's why a couple it was like two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, they put out a message like, "Yeah, you guys can put AI games. We don't care."

Because I think what they were doing is like, "Let's just see if if we can hold down the slop." And they could because if you're do let's pretend you could just type in Steam, make me a Bioshock

clone in chat GPT or something and all of a sudden a whole Bioshock clone shot out and then you upload it and then every day you just uploaded a new

Bioshock that was generated by AI.

Valve has made the algorithm so you need 7,000 wish lists minimum and you cannot get 7,000 wish lists in a day. So

automatically you are going to get shoveled down into the depths. Even if

you're a game even if chat was awesome like it was it was like Bioshock whatever they four or something. Even if

they could do that you would have to spend that time working with influencers getting into festivals with your AI slop game and you would have to do that. So

there's a humanate already figured it out already. There is a human gate that

out already. There is a human gate that you have to pass through which is in order to get wish lists you tend to you

you typically you need YouTubers and the Jeff Keilles of the world and people to work with you to promote it, right?

People promote the game. And so you can't do that with an AI game because they'll see it and they'll know this is this is crap. This is what Valve did.

And people always say, "I wish Steam were curated." Folks, it is. It's just

were curated." Folks, it is. It's just

not how you envisioned curation. Okay,

got it. They just want they want me like mommy or something like Steam is mommy and they want us upload it and then Steam goes, "No, no, no. You're not

cured." No, what Valve did was they It's a little You don't know it. And this is why you have to study and listen to listen to me everybody. I mean, like this is why you have to read into this

stuff is it's curated. It's just been outsourced and it's a little bit hidden.

And so Jeff Keley is a Steam curation layer. And so but but it's it's it's a

layer. And so but but it's it's it's a twostep process. Like the number of wish

twostep process. Like the number of wish lists that Valve requires to get you on the front page can only be generated by somebody like Jeff Keley or by some

streamer playing your game on Steam. And

so Valve doesn't say this explicitly, but it's true. You just have to go to these curious. That's what I was saying

these curious. That's what I was saying is like it happens folks, it happens in giant jumps. It doesn't happen with you

giant jumps. It doesn't happen with you tweeting every day and you posting on Reddit every day. It happens in huge jumps when you get a curator like a Jeff Keley or some streamer or some festival

to feature you. That gets you there and that's how you do it. And to get Jeff Keley play, he's not going to play AI slop. He's not he's going to be like

slop. He's not he's going to be like this slop. So it hasn't changed. It

this slop. So it hasn't changed. It

hasn't changed. It might feel unfair to people. Like a lot of people might

people. Like a lot of people might think, well, that's gatekeeping. And

like I'm I'm I'm thrilled that that the press isn't as relevant as they used to be. That's nice cuz like dude, GameSpot

be. That's nice cuz like dude, GameSpot destroyed Pinstripe for no reason. They

gave it a five out of 10 for no reason.

Was it GameSpot or GameStop? I don't

even remember. But it's it's whatever the the press the magazine is. They they

destroyed that game. And it's like just because one writer who worked with them didn't like it, he got to give it a five out of 10. It's ridiculous. So it's nice to know like on one hand it's nice to

know that gatekeeping on the press side is has been pushed down. However, what

you're saying is like Yeah, but that gatekeeping is kind of nice cuz they kind of filter out automatically the AI slop, right? Yeah. Basically, and this

slop, right? Yeah. Basically, and this is what happened was it used to be like you either had, you know, there were like four press outlets and if you didn't do well with those four, that was it. Basically, it's thousands of them

it. Basically, it's thousands of them and it's a positive thing. Like you

could get you could fail with one streamer and streamers like this game sucks. But if there's three others that

sucks. But if there's three others that this is yours is like the perfect game for them, they can still promote it. You

know, there's and so there's niches within niches. There's like wholesome

within niches. There's like wholesome games. Like if you're making a wholesome

games. Like if you're making a wholesome game, that whole community is amazing if you're that type of game, but you would get totally slammed if you're making a wholesome game and you upload it to some

like shooter streamer who only likes shooter games. You would destroy your

shooter games. You would destroy your game. Exactly. And so that's what it is

game. Exactly. And so that's what it is is like there's just thousands of little curators out there and Val that's why Valve stepped back and they're like, "We

don't know. We have no idea. All we know

don't know. We have no idea. All we know is when a curator sends this much traffic, that's a good sign. And so they let that happen. And then they're like

the the wish list is the quantifier of how much momentum came from this outside source, whether it's Jeff Keley or a streamer or Wholesome Games Fest. That's

all they know. They're like, I don't know. It just came in. What's so

know. It just came in. What's so

interesting about all of this is that YouTube, the YouTube algorithm or like social media algorithms, I think they behave a lot differently because for example with YouTube, in order to get a video to pop off, no matter how much

outside traffic I push into a YouTube video, the YouTube algorithm does not care. It wants it to be organic. It

care. It wants it to be organic. It

wants it to happen naturally and it wants it to basically happen on the browse tab. But what you're saying is

browse tab. But what you're saying is that Steam, it's like the opposite almost. I mean, at least on the during

almost. I mean, at least on the during the impetus of a game's like launch, it wants to see that outside traffic to basically prove to Steam that

it's not crap.

Well, okay, here's the here's where it gets tricky. Okay, so the easy thing for

gets tricky. Okay, so the easy thing for Valve is that it's based on money. Like

money and like, you know, that's the thing with with capitalism. It's like

that is such a unit, you know, like a dollar. And so with YouTube, there's not

dollar. And so with YouTube, there's not I mean I know there subscriptions and you can tip and all that kind of stuff, but it's mainly based off of ad revenue.

And so it's really hard for the YouTube algorithm to quantify. And same thing with like social media like Twitter and stuff. You know how they always

stuff. You know how they always flip-flop like oh a retweet counts as two likes and then they'll flip it and they'll be like a like counts more than a retweet because they don't know.

Nobody knows like what is engagement, you know, like, you know, YouTube's like watch hours and stuff, but it's like if I'm doing home improvement and I just want to know how do I tighten this nut on the sink, I'm going to fast forward

and get exactly what I want and I'm happy, but I didn't engage with this guy's content. I just zipped to the one

guy's content. I just zipped to the one moment where I wanted. So val so YouTube can't quantify whether somebody liked something but Valve can cuz it's like

you paid money and we are trying to make money. Everything's aligned. It's very

money. Everything's aligned. It's very

easy. We want money, you want money, the player wants to give money to get fun.

It's super simple. So the YouTube algorithm is really based on that.

That's why it's not like wishlist conversion and whether you wishlisted and played and played or wish. No, that

was just like just money. It's just

money. So the algorithm is very simple and that's why when I said to you we don't know conversion rate. We don't

know if your 100,000 wish list will convert at 1% 5% 10 20 30. It just comes down to money. If when you launch your game you make a lot of money. Val's like

that's all we care about. We don't care if you started with one wish list and 100% converted and that as long as you make us money. If you charge $1,000 per

copy of your game and it makes money, good on you. We don't care. We will

promote that. They just care about money. It's not conversions or wish

money. It's not conversions or wish conversions or time played. Just money.

It's so dead simple. Okay. So, in order to get that 30,000, we've got two options. Number one, or two, two andor.

options. Number one, or two, two andor.

Okay. You could do both or one. If one

doesn't work, one of them is stand on the shoulders of giants. That could be streamers, by the way. I don't think you mentioned that, but streamers, YouTubers, getting them to play your

game. Um, festivals, all that stuff.

game. Um, festivals, all that stuff.

Number two, launch a Steam demo. Now,

the question I want to ask is you said it was hard to I'm trying to parse it.

So, you said it's better to just What did you say? You said um people overanalyze when to launch stuff because the Steam Ocean is so big. However, it

does matter when you launch your demo, right? That does matter a little bit.

right? That does matter a little bit.

And I think people, this is what always frustrates me. people like the the genre

frustrates me. people like the the genre and the type of game you make is the most important thing. It's the most important. That's it determines

important. That's it determines 90%. I got to be careful how I say it

90%. I got to be careful how I say it cuz somebody like 90% of your success is going to be determined the moment you say this is the type of game we're going

to make and it's going to look like this. That like determines everything.

this. That like determines everything.

Okay. The last 10% is like tactics of what you do. Okay. But the problem is people go into what type of game they make on the fastest win. They're just

like, "I don't know. I just feel it. I'm

just going to make this game." Ah, they just like choose like at random like they're throwing darts which game.

They're like, "Oh, somebody laughed on Twitter when I said this. So, I'm going to make it." It's like, "No, no, no, no, no. Think about it. Think about this."

no. Think about it. Think about this."

They just like randomly pick which game they're going to make. And I'm like, "God, spend a couple weeks thinking about what game you're going to make next." But when it comes time to do

next." But when it comes time to do things like when do we launch your demo?

they turn into like Albert's Einstein like calculating the curvature of the earth and like they're trying to like way overanalyze. It was like I wish all

way overanalyze. It was like I wish all this brain power was determined when you were picking which game to make and it really doesn't folks. If you're

overanalyzing the hour, day, minute when you need to launch your game or your demo, it doesn't matter. For most of the time, it doesn't matter. The only thing when you launch your demo that I would

advise against is really the only time I'd say don't launch it. Even though it's you don't

launch it. Even though it's you don't launch just be don't launch your demo just before NextFest because remember I said a big boost comes when you launch your demo and you get on to new and

trending free. That's competitive.

trending free. That's competitive.

There's only 10 slots per day and then the games bounce off as new games get on that list. And so everybody waits to the

that list. And so everybody waits to the last minute to launch their demo before NextFest. So that thing is it's just

NextFest. So that thing is it's just like Memorial Day at the beach. You

know, everybody's there. And so yes, you did it. But you're hit the I did hit the

did it. But you're hit the I did hit the trending tab. So I see. But you are

trending tab. So I see. But you are time. You are big time. If you are no

time. You are big time. If you are no following, which was the premise of the thing is you have no following. This is

your first game. Nothing. Wait. Try and

launch your demo like two to three.

Well, you can't do three months before next cuz they come out every 3 months.

Yes. Or every four months. They come

every four months, but launch it way before next Fest because nobody there there isn't as much competition. And

again, it's not how big the competition is, it's how many people because there's 10 slots. So even if you with your big

10 slots. So even if you with your big game Twisted Tower are launching. I I don't mind launching at the same time as Twisted Tower because there's 10 slots. I just

have to be one of the top 10. But

there's people at the same time, not how big the game is. And this

is this is a common misconception that people have. It's so confusing, Chris.

people have. It's so confusing, Chris.

And it's so frustrating cuz literally, I'm not I'm not even joking. My my

publisher said launch two weeks prior. I

had the my publisher's competitor, they reached out to me privately and said, "What did you just do? Why did you launch two weeks prior?

do? Why did you launch two weeks prior?

You should have launched the day of. You

made a big mistake. And then you say, "Do it three months prior." And so what I'm gathering from that is it doesn't matter. Well, okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa,

matter. Well, okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's Let's be careful here, though. Yeah. Remember, we

here, though. Yeah. Remember, we

switched. You just did it. You switched

mentally. I was talking about the person with no audience. No. Y. You have a big publisher. You have a big YouTube

publisher. You have a big YouTube channel. You've launched lots of games.

channel. You've launched lots of games.

You had I don't remember how many heading into next 30,000 wish lists when we launched the you had a lot of wish lists. You had a big following. You knew

lists. You had a big following. You knew

you were going to hit new and trending.

See, you folks have appreciate that. You

have to know. And also Ken Lavine, whatever Ken Lavine does is different than you than anybody else. You have to remember who you are and what your strategy is going into this stuff. I

actually think Okay, so one thing is with Steam NextFest, we don't know exactly. They change the algorithm every

exactly. They change the algorithm every single This is one thing that does change, but it's not that important.

It's just one algorithm. The next best algorithm does change every time. Um,

and I can't remember which one you did, but there was one where they said, "We're not going to do as much about um because what people were doing is they're gaming the system. They were

trying to get as many wish lists.

Sometimes it was the two weeks, then it was the one week." And I think when you heard that, yes, all three of those people had different theories about what the algorithm was going to do. And

actually, all three, it doesn't matter.

all three of the people that you talk to. Oh, one week, two weeks, one day, it

to. Oh, one week, two weeks, one day, it didn't matter. Yeah. Because what you're

didn't matter. Yeah. Because what you're trying to do is juice the algorithm so that you're the front page. If you Now, I'm switching my thing. I'm talking to you, Thomas. But if I'm talking to

you, Thomas. But if I'm talking to somebody who has no following, nothing, launch it months in advance. I see. I

see. So, that's why you have to know you have to know the strategy of why you had your audience already there, Thomas. I'm

speaking specifically to you now. You

had your audience. So, it's okay to do the the strategy of launch the day of because I know you're going to be able to convert those and what your strategy is. I have enough going in. I can

is. I have enough going in. I can

probably get down to the top trending because when you do Yeah. Next best,

there's always a chart on the front page that says top demo, most played, most wish lists, you had a chance to be on all three of those. Yep. So, you'd be

fine. So, I think it was okay. One day,

fine. So, I think it was okay. One day,

two weeks, three weeks. It's okay. it

doesn't matter that much. But so the recommendation for 99% of the people listening right now, and that certainly sounds cocky. I

promise I'm not trying to be, but 99% of the people listening right now, they're they're in that situation where they don't have a following and they don't have a ton of wish list. So what you're saying is um look, if the if if you

can't get a big slot in some festival, just launch your demo like almost immediately after the last Next Fest, right? Like it's almost like you're

right? Like it's almost like you're saying wait for the last one to finish and then launch the demo and then wait for your wish list numbers to tick up.

This also can let you correct me if I'm wrong here. This also lets people fix

wrong here. This also lets people fix their demo so that by the time NextFest the next one comes up they have a rockolid demo. Right. I I always I

rockolid demo. Right. I I always I always tell people, no matter who, even for you, NextFest should not be the first time some random stranger plays

your game who doesn't know you because you don't you don't want to find out one that you have a game-breaking bug when a streamer is thinking of playing your game. You want to get that out and you

game. You want to get that out and you also want to make sure that there's not like, oh man, the first boss is way too hard and everybody gets mad. You want to find that out way before NextFest

because NextFest um is kind of their front page featuring and a lot of streamers are going to try your game and if they're like, "Man, the first boss is way too hard. I can't play this on stream. I'm not going to play it." You

stream. I'm not going to play it." You

don't want that. You want to know what that is. And again, it goes back to that

that is. And again, it goes back to that thing is like you can't overexpose yourself. It's not like, "Oh, I gave my

yourself. It's not like, "Oh, I gave my demo to streamers 3 months before NextFest. That means there's no

NextFest. That means there's no streamers left." There are so many

streamers left." There are so many streamers that are going to play your game. So, yeah. Uh that are capable of

game. So, yeah. Uh that are capable of playing your game, that could play your game. Yeah, it doesn't matter, dude. I

game. Yeah, it doesn't matter, dude. I

understand that uh that panic of of launching a a brand spanking new IP, like a a demo um during NextFest and and

I put like so much energy into that f those first two weeks. It was like I got a ton of streamers to play the game. I I

sent out a hundred emails to different streamers I wanted to play the demo. And

when we launched the demo, it was wild how many bugs appeared. No matter how hard how much Q dude we we did QA with like a professional QA team with Saber,

which is the parent company of my publisher. We had a full-on QA team. We

publisher. We had a full-on QA team. We

were in Gyra or however you say it. We

were we had it all per it was like this professional QA team and they they cleaned we cleaned it up so perfectly for the launch of that demo. And

literally the moment we launch, it's like one bug and it's it's prominent and it's massive and it's game-breaking. And

I had people writing reviews and it's really painful. I don't know if you've

really painful. I don't know if you've ever had somebody say this about you, but like saying stuff like Thomas sells courses and teaches about gamedev, but he can't even find a bug like this. You

know, it was like my credibility was on the line because of this one stupid bug.

Somehow I missed it and it was terrifying cuz dude the the the reviews crashed like it went down to 83%. And I

was like what's happening? What is

happening? And it turns out it's just one little bug. But that's what to your point is so important. It's it's do it maybe maybe launch that demo if you don't have a following. Launch that demo

in the quiet and see what people are saying and then when NextFest arrives you'll have a solid demo. I think that's that's much better. And you just the

number of people, the thousands and thousands of people, you just need that time to try it that many times before you can find out if you have bugs. It

just takes a long time. It takes a lot of people and so yeah, launch it way way in advance. Okay, I think that's

in advance. Okay, I think that's everything, right, for for 30,000 wish list. Is there anything else you wanted

list. Is there anything else you wanted to share before we wrap up here? No.

Head over to how toarketame.com/free newsletter comes out

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who's wondering. And by the way, just so everyone knows, I'll give you more of a shout out here. First off, please everybody do it because that's that's one of the reasons Chris does podcasts.

I'm sure it takes a lot of your time and it's good to get people to click that link below. But also, I know that I read

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everybody, please click the link below and support Chris, but more importantly, it is supporting everybody's future because it really does help a lot. So,

thanks for coming on, dude. That was so helpful. I appreciate it. Thanks. Thank

helpful. I appreciate it. Thanks. Thank

you, Tom. Also, if you're interested in optimizing your crash and error reporting workflow for development and release builds, I definitely recommend you go check out Sentry and their Unity

SDK. It's really easy to get started and

SDK. It's really easy to get started and you can do so completely for free by simply clicking the link in the description.