Dr. Becky Kennedy: The #1 Mistake Parents Make That Kills Confidence in Their Kids!

We've gone from not caring about kids emotions to being scared of kids emotions. The more you optimize for

emotions. The more you optimize for happiness in childhood, the more you actually wire for anxiety in adulthood.

>> Dr. Becky Kennedy.

>> Dr. Becky, >> the go-to voice for modern helping parents break cycles and build connections.

>> What actually makes a good parent?

>> Repair without a doubt is the most important parenting strategy.

>> What's the worst thing a parent can say to a child that's going through a difficult time?

>> I don't care about your feelings. I'm

not listening. I'm not really connecting. I am telling you what to do.

connecting. I am telling you what to do.

I'm leading with control.

>> Can you be your kid's best friend and still set boundaries?

>> Kids need us to embody our authority.

Boundaries and validation when paired together. That's what makes for really

together. That's what makes for really resilient adults.

>> What's the cost of being a good kid who never caused problem?

>> You can't learn to manage emotions you feel like you're not allowed to have. If

we can't tolerate the challenging feelings our kids have and we look for a quick distraction, what they learn is I'm a kid and I find my feelings

overwhelming, but oh my goodness, my parent finds my feelings overwhelming.

>> You've said it's not your job to make your kids happy.

>> Yeah.

>> What is a parent's job?

>> The number one health and wellness podcast.

>> J Shetty.

>> J Shetty. The one, the only J Shetty.

>> Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so

grateful that I get to talk to today's thought leaders and experts about the things that matter that make a difference in our daily lives. And

today's topic is something I'm fascinated by. It's something I talk to

fascinated by. It's something I talk to my wife Radi about a lot. And it's

something that takes a lot of my mind space even though I'm not one of these yet. But today's topic is parenting. And

yet. But today's topic is parenting. And

today's guest is Dr. Becky Kennedy, clinical psychologist, best-selling author, and founder of Good Inside, a global parenting and mental health

platform. Named by Time as the

platform. Named by Time as the millennial parent whisperer, Dr. Becky is known for bringing practical, compassionate tools that help families and individuals thrive. Dr. Becky's

bestselling book, Good Inside, has helped over a million people feel seen and supported through life's toughest moments. And in today's episode, we dive

moments. And in today's episode, we dive into how to honor hard emotions, set healthy boundaries, and grow through the everyday challenges of parenting and connection. In all honesty, I have

connection. In all honesty, I have sparked so many of the best conversations I've had around becoming a parent because of Dr. Becky Kennedy's work. So, I'm so excited to have her on

work. So, I'm so excited to have her on the show today. Becky, welcome to On Purpose.

>> Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

>> It's so great to have you here. I want

to start off by diving into just things that you say that really stick with me and I go, "Oh, yes. That's I I feel like that resonates. You said we've gone from

that resonates. You said we've gone from not caring about kids feelings to letting kids feelings dictate what we do as parents.

>> Yeah.

>> And when you said that, of course, I'm looking at this as someone who wants to be a parent, but I'm looking at parents around me. That idea that we all feel we

around me. That idea that we all feel we grew up at a time when our parents didn't care. They weren't present. They

didn't care. They weren't present. They

didn't know what was going on with our feelings and emotions. We've now gone to a place of our kids' feelings dictating what we do.

>> Yeah.

>> Talk to me about that.

>> Yeah. I I think naming this overcorrection is really helpful because yes, decades ago, I mean, probably in still some families now, right? It's I

don't know, let's say some version of I don't want to go to Aunt Sally's house.

I don't care if you want to go to Aunt Sally's house. Put on a smile. Put on

Sally's house. Put on a smile. Put on

your shoes or else. And then some consequence, right? Okay, that would be

consequence, right? Okay, that would be I don't care about your feelings. I'm

not listening. I'm not really connecting. I am telling you what to do.

connecting. I am telling you what to do.

I'm leading with control. And I think there's a generation of people who are like that didn't feel good. You know,

and we also know that emotions and learning how to understand your emotions, how to manage your emotions.

You can't learn to manage emotions. You

feel like you're not allowed to have disappointment as a kid. How could you ever manage disappointment as an adult?

So, it's not really the pathway to strength and resilience, right? But yes,

what I've noticed is something completely overcorrected that I would say is equally as bad for kids. Same

situation. I don't want to go to Aunt Sally's today. It's so boring. I want to

Sally's today. It's so boring. I want to hang out with my friends. Okay, you know what? And then fill in the blank. I'll

what? And then fill in the blank. I'll

get a sitter. I'll stay home. Let me

call three different people and, you know, see what you can do. And there's

so many examples of this. I don't want to leave the playground. Okay. Well, I

guess we'll stay at the playground longer. And it's not to say I'm against

longer. And it's not to say I'm against parent flexibility. Sometimes, of

parent flexibility. Sometimes, of course, we can be flexible, but we've gone from not caring about kids emotions to being scared of kids emotions. That's

why we let them run the show. That's why

we give our kids emotions kind of the the steering wheel. And I think what we stand for at Good Inside is something remarkably in the middle. It is very important to see your kids feelings as

real. That's really what it is. That's

real. That's really what it is. That's

what validation is. It's a process of saying to someone else kind of I might not be feeling what you're feeling, but what you are feeling is real and I am interested in learning about it. I think

that's very important. You don't want to go to Sally's house. I get it. You'd

rather be sitting home and watching the basketball game on TV. Totally hear you.

And then I think there's a wellplaced and because that is part of our job.

Empathizing with a kid's feelings is only half of your job as a parent. The

other half is setting a true boundary.

Is what I think of as authority without aggression, which is rarely modeled, but is important, which is some version of we committed to going to Aunt Sally's as a family. And the truth is, there's a

a family. And the truth is, there's a good amount of things we all have to do that aren't number one on our agenda, that are even a little bit boring. This

is one of those things. It's okay if you whine on the way there. I know when we get there, you're going to be able to pull it together. It's not going to be your most fun Saturday, but we'll get through it as a family. All right. What

kind of music do you want to listen to in the car?

>> Yeah. Why do we find that so tough? Why

is that so hard to do as a parent?

>> I think there's so many factors. So, I

think part of it is actually just a lack of confusion and teaching, right? I

think we can get into this bigger conversation. I'll just name it and not

conversation. I'll just name it and not go into it now. Parenting is the last job in the world where we glorify instinct alone. We haven't been taught,

instinct alone. We haven't been taught, well, how do I connect to my kid but also hold a boundary, right? It would be like telling a surgeon to do surgery without medical school. That's kind of what we do to parents. So, it's really hard.

>> Send them home with a baby.

>> Yeah. Literally, right? And I remember going home with a baby. I looked around really like no one's just just a car seat. Like I remember looking around and

seat. Like I remember looking around and no one was coming. I was like, guess I'm good. Okay. Um that's what we do and

good. Okay. Um that's what we do and it's the hardest job in the world. So I

think part of it is how can you employ a skill in a difficult situation when you've never been taught a skill and that skill wasn't modeled in your own childhood. So I think that's number one.

childhood. So I think that's number one.

Number two, and this is like a really big one for kind of why right now is this so powerful. So much of parenting is inconvenient. It's just the word

is inconvenient. It's just the word that's not talked about enough for parenting. when you have to get out your

parenting. when you have to get out your door to go to Aunt Sally's 50th lunchon, which my guess is maybe you're not really even dying to do either. There's

a lot of frustration like your kid is whining, your kid is saying why they shouldn't go. And if I think about where

shouldn't go. And if I think about where parenting is today versus decades ago, I think us adults, we've become less and less tolerant of frustration.

>> We have our phones, we have our dopamine, we have so much more ease in our life. And one of the things I always

our life. And one of the things I always think about is our kids can't learn to tolerate feelings we don't tolerate in them. So if I have an increasingly

them. So if I have an increasingly lowered frustration tolerance because of all of the ease and dopamine hits in my life, I am inherently less tolerant of

my kids whining.

>> Wow.

>> And then the reason I let my kids whining take the driver's seat and I say, "Fine, you know what? Just go to your friend's house." I actually think it doesn't even have to do with making our kid happy, which I don't think is

good as a predominant philosophy either.

I actually just want to stop feeling frustrated myself. I just don't want to

frustrated myself. I just don't want to deal with it. So, if we can't tolerate our kids disappointment or frustration, they're not learning to, which is why then it looks like their emotions are

making all the decisions.

>> Wow. That that's extremely powerful.

Which is why because they can't tolerate their feelings because of our reaction to their feelings, they now don't actually develop resilience or grit or all the things we want them to develop

because tolerance and knowing how to accept and sit in the feeling is such an important skill set.

>> I I mean this is everything, right? I

think I'm a visual person, so I've done this before, but I think it matters that, you know, if we think about kids, they're born into the world and they're born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage feelings. There's a

gap. All the feelings, none of the skills. Bad behavior, whether it's a

skills. Bad behavior, whether it's a four-year-old hitting their sister, whether it's your teenager saying, "I'm not going to Aunt Sally's," whether a kid is saying, "I hate you. You're the

worst mom. I don't want to be in this family." you're lying to your face.

family." you're lying to your face.

Every single acting out behavior is a sign that feelings are greater than skills. But the problem isn't the

skills. But the problem isn't the feelings. The problem is the lack of

feelings. The problem is the lack of skills.

>> So the answer to over time having a lot better behavior or something more powerful than behavior. It's building

skills, building emotion regulation skills. Kids are not born with those

skills. Kids are not born with those skills. And we as parents, we are kind

skills. And we as parents, we are kind of the coaches. But I think as our life gets so busy, right, as we're more distracted and and just to be clear, let me say right away, I'm not like above this. I'm not like, "You should all

this. I'm not like, "You should all watch me. I'm a perfectly present parent

watch me. I'm a perfectly present parent all the time." No. Right? Modern life is so hard, right? But yes, if we can't

tolerate the challenging feelings our kids have and we look for a quick distraction or a quick exit for them right away, then what they learn is something really interesting. What they

learn is, I'm a kid and I find my feelings overwhelming, but oh my goodness, my parent finds my feelings overwhelming. The things that feel scary

overwhelming. The things that feel scary and toxic to me, maybe they really are scary and toxic and then, you know, things can kind of go from there.

>> Yeah. And I think one of the challenges with that is that not only do the kids not have the skills, we potentially as adults have never had time to develop the skills ourselves and no one taught

us. And so that pattern continues. How

us. And so that pattern continues. How

do you overcome mom guilt?

>> Such a good question. So let me paint a scenario cuz I want to know if we're talking about the same thing. So I'll

hear and what I kind of referred to before is a situation like I'm going out to dinner with my friends. Um and it's often >> I haven't seen a group of my friends without kids around in I don't know,

however long, a long time.

>> But then I have my dog or my son clinging to my leg. Mom, you never put me to bed. Meanwhile, in this situation, if it's like my house, I've like put my kid to bed for the last 37 nights. Okay,

but still in that moment, it's like, you never put me to bed. And then what a mom will often say to me is I feel so guilty. Like, I feel so guilty. It's not

guilty. Like, I feel so guilty. It's not

even worth going out to dinner. Like,

it's not even worth it. I don't Is that kind of along the lines? Okay,

>> that's fine.

>> Okay, so the way I see this, I actually don't think we're talking about guilt here.

>> I don't I think this is a misunderstanding of what guilt is. So

we'll start with that. To me, guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values. And in that way, it's a very important feeling. Like

all of our feelings are important for information cuz it helps you have enough discomfort to reflect on like, well, what are my values? Like if I no showed to this podcast and didn't even text

you, I'd feel guilty. It is not within my value system to noshow on people, right? That would be helpful. And I

right? That would be helpful. And I

think, why did I do that? Right? But

what I hear all the time from moms is going out to dinner, my kids clinging, I feel guilty. So I'll say, "Okay, really,

feel guilty. So I'll say, "Okay, really, is it within your value system, and only you would know this while you're a mother?"

mother?" >> To see your friends some of the time.

>> Mhm.

>> 100% of moms say, "Yeah." So I say, "Okay, so this is interesting. This is

definitely a painful experience, but this is not guilt. This literally isn't guilt." And here's what I think it is. I

guilt." And here's what I think it is. I

think as women especially, but it's not only for women, going back to that good girl idea, we've developed the tendency to scan our environment and see other

people who are upset with us and we kind of do this. We're like, you're feeling uncomfortable. I will take that feeling

uncomfortable. I will take that feeling out of your body.

>> I will take it into my body and I will call it guilt >> and I will change something I'm doing so you don't have to feel that way.

That's not guilt. That's actually

emotional confusion.

>> And and I find visuals helpful. So to

me, if you picture yourself in a tennis court, let's say I'm on one side and my daughter who's clinging to me is on the other side. But instead of a tennis net,

other side. But instead of a tennis net, let's say there's a glass wall. What

will happen is I'm like, "Okay, I'm on my side. I know I want to go to dinner

my side. I know I want to go to dinner with my friends. I haven't seen them.

It's important. It's within my value system. I'm grounded in that. Over there

system. I'm grounded in that. Over there

is my daughter who's upset." Number one, two things are true can help here. Two

things are true. I'm allowed to go out to dinner. My daughter's allowed to go

to dinner. My daughter's allowed to go upset to be upset. Period. But if I picture that tennis court, the reason it's helpful is I now picture my kid. He

never put me to bed. I'm so upset. It's

actually really powerful how many people have told me it's true. It's like

somehow those feelings in her body start to come out >> and start to come to my side of the court. And all of a sudden, they're on

court. And all of a sudden, they're on my side. And I'm saying things like,

my side. And I'm saying things like, "Don't you want me to be happy?" or

"Fine, I'll cancel." And actually, the interesting thing is I'm not even doing that for my daughter at this point.

That's why it's not guilt.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm doing that to rid myself of this feeling that wasn't even mine in the first place. And you can't even

first place. And you can't even empathize because you can only empathize with someone's feeling when it's their feeling. As soon as you've made it your

feeling. As soon as you've made it your own, you're playing your own game. So,

if we if we go through the scenario, and I do this with so many women, I'm like, "Okay, so you're on this court. I want

you to literally imagine doing this."

And if anyone's listening and can't see me, I'm putting my hands by my chest and I'm like pushing it out. The visual

matters, like my kids sadness, I am pushing it out of my body and I'm giving it back to them. I'm not pushing it away and I'm not doing it violently. I'm just

kind of giving it back to its rightful owner. Okay? Because then I can actually

owner. Okay? Because then I can actually empathize cuz once it's back in her body, I can say, "Gh, you really wish it was me putting you to bed and not daddy.

I get that. Yeah, I really wish it was you. Listen, this is one of those nights

you. Listen, this is one of those nights I'm going to dinner with my friends.

It's okay if it feels hard. You're safe

with dad. You're allowed to be upset. I

will see you in the morning. Now, when I do that again, my child has never said to me, "Have a great dinner, Mom." Or,

"That was sturdy leadership." Or, "You use that guilt tennis image, didn't you?" That never happened. They keep

you?" That never happened. They keep

crying. Again, we're not our good interventions.

>> Yeah. They're just simply not rewarded by kids calm behavior. And the sooner we realize that, you know, the better. Even

though we keep wanting at me to to be true. And now I go out and the truth is

true. And now I go out and the truth is on my walk to dinner, I feel a little uneasy. I'm like, I'm so guilty. But I

uneasy. I'm like, I'm so guilty. But I

say, Becky, that's not guilt. That's

actually literally not guilt. I am

acting in alignment with my values. That

is my daughter's distress. And actually,

my job is to help her build tolerance for distress. And I actually just did

for distress. And I actually just did that while I kept my dinner plan because I know if I canceled, you think I'm not resentful of my daughter and not screaming her head off at the time she

asked for a second book at bedtime because I wish I was at dinner with my friend in the first place. We use our kids behavior or their reactions as a barometer of whether we're a good

parent. And we lose oursel in the

parent. And we lose oursel in the process because we're so busy gazing out versus gazing in. What's a version of gazing in? Is this a decision I believe

gazing in? Is this a decision I believe in? Do I feel like I'm actually being a

in? Do I feel like I'm actually being a good leader? Do I feel like this is a

good leader? Do I feel like this is a decision maybe not only for today, but for, you know, every once in a while when we have the energy, a decision that really helps our kid become the kind of teen and adult we'd want them to be?

When we call the school, when we do the puzzle, when we fix the friendship issue, right? Assuming it's not some

issue, right? Assuming it's not some really intense abusive bullying, okay?

We might end up feeling capable, but we steal our kids' capability. To me, the biggest wins we have in parenting and in so many parts of life are when we shift

from my job is to avoid all turbulence to I actually know exactly what to do in the turbulence. And when you know what

the turbulence. And when you know what to do in the turbulence, which takes practice and learning and support and never being perfect, you actually feel stronger.

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know you've also said that women in particular feel a pressure because there's always been this idea that women should have a maternal instinct and you talk about parenting being a skill as

much as the kids needing these skills as they're growing up >> and women have this unfair pressure of well it's natural to you.

>> I mean I think that that's the thing when I became a mom that was so personally striking. This idea of

personally striking. This idea of maternal instinct, I think, has had a profound impact on our culture, right?

Because I'm not saying there's nothing about parenting that's instinctual. I

think we instinctually love our kid or there's certain moments that come naturally, but yet when your kid is having a grocery store meltdown and the mom you're trying to become friends with

is kind of watching you in the store, right? When your kid says, "I hate you.

right? When your kid says, "I hate you.

You're the worst parent in the world."

When your kid is delaying, I don't know, at bedtime or brushing their teeth. When

your kid lies to your face, I didn't take money. And you like see the nest

take money. And you like see the nest cam of them taking money. We're saying

we think our instinct is going to lead to good decisions. No. Most people I know would say, my instinct is telling me to scream in my child's face. You

know why? Because your parent probably screamed in your face because they didn't have the resources they need, right? And over and over, I'd be meeting

right? And over and over, I'd be meeting parents. It was so interesting. It was

parents. It was so interesting. It was

mostly moms who would tell me always some version of the same story. They'd

come in a live event, they'd say it's something nice, and then they would unload. And it was kind of some version

unload. And it was kind of some version of I go to bed feeling awful about myself. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm

myself. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm

yelling at my kids all the time. I feel

like I'm a monster. I feel like I'm messing my kids up forever. Right? And

then I would kind of contain the situation. I'd listen and then I'd dig

situation. I'd listen and then I'd dig in cuz I always want to know when someone's struggling so much. What

resources do they have? And I'd always hear the same thing. Resources like this shouldn't be this hard. It shouldn't be this hard. I should be able to figure

this hard. I should be able to figure this out on my own. I don't know. Oh, it

just it was striking. If I think about the best athletes in the world, even the ones who have amazing athletic instinct, right? I don't know, Steph Curry, uh,

right? I don't know, Steph Curry, uh, LeBron James. Like, I'm pretty sure they

LeBron James. Like, I'm pretty sure they had a lot of coaching.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, I'm pretty sure they weren't like, "Coaching's not for me. I should be able to figure out this basketball thing on my own." It's really interesting. I

my own." It's really interesting. I

think people in almost every other field, they take pride in coaching. I

even think the best CEOs now it it's it's almost embarrassing if you don't have an executive coach >> and you don't just get your advice on Instagram. Like you really have

Instagram. Like you really have knowledge and learning and you dig in and you feel good about it. And so yeah, if something is supposed to be done by pure instinct, then the only explanation

for why you're struggling is that you're broken.

>> Yeah.

>> And I feel very passionately about changing that narrative.

>> Yeah. And I I believe you are. And to

that point that you're saying, I mean, I had the fortune of interviewing Kobe Bryant before he tragically passed away around 3 months before. And he was so

clear about the fact that he just put in more time. So it he was exactly what

more time. So it he was exactly what you're saying. It's reaffirming your

you're saying. It's reaffirming your point. He was actually doing double the

point. He was actually doing double the coaching that everyone else was. So he

was in the gym before everyone got in the gym. Then he did what everyone else

the gym. Then he did what everyone else was doing in the gym, and then he'd go home and work out again. Yeah.

>> 2, three, four, and then eventually five championships. I wanted to ask you about

championships. I wanted to ask you about that point because you talk about this idea of parents not being perfect.

>> Yes.

>> But being good at repairing.

>> Yes.

>> Which I really, really value as an idea because I do think we all want to get it perfect the first time and that's our instinct. And like you said, the natural

instinct. And like you said, the natural instinct, even though we want to get it perfect as a desire, the natural instinct in any of those circumstances

is to act out, is to shout, scream, yell, instruct, direct, dictate. And you

gave a few really great anecdotal examples there, but very real ones as well. Talk to me about what parents

well. Talk to me about what parents instinctually do so that we just normalize the fact that it's okay because no one's going to get it right the first time. And then talk to me

about how you repaired that given one of those types of scenarios of going to aunt's alleys or screaming in the playground or >> great repair without a doubt is the most important parenting strategy. I would

say repair is the most important relationship strategy because I think everything we talk about at Goodside is as relevant in a partnership or at work with yourself any relationship. So let's

start with this desire to be perfect. I

think this is especially true with moms. I don't hear it as much from dads, honestly. And I think this goes back to

honestly. And I think this goes back to a lot of gender roles. I think a lot of us were socialized to be good girls, which I now put in quotes because I realize being a good girl just means

being trained to gaze out and notice what everyone in the world wants from you and to become as distant as possible from gazing in and noticing what you

might want for yourself. That's really

what it means. How can I please you?

Yeah. How can I please you? How can I How can I meet your need before you even have a need? I notice you're twitching.

You're about to get mad. I also know you kind of like this kind of drink, so I'm going to go make you an iced tea and bring it to you. Right? You're looking

everywhere and meeting everyone's needs all the time, right? And I think a lot of girls, they learned that that's where their value was. And and I think that's where they therefore they feel safest,

>> right? Is when I'm getting it right for

>> right? Is when I'm getting it right for everyone else.

>> So now we have parenting, right? I mean,

people often ask me like, "Is there a perfect parent? Are you a perfect

perfect parent? Are you a perfect parent?" I am definitely not a perfect

parent?" I am definitely not a perfect parent. There's no such thing as a

parent. There's no such thing as a perfect parent. And I just even want to

perfect parent. And I just even want to say, I don't even think it would be a good thing for a kid to have a perfect parent because the dynamic you establish

with your kid. The relationship with your kid is the foundation for every relationship they'll have after that.

And I know it's heavy, but it's true, so I'll say it. The nature of a relationship you develop with your kid is also going to impact who they're even

attracted to in adulthood because we're attracted to what feels like home.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. For better or for worse as a natural attraction.

>> Yeah.

>> So I don't think any of us think it's adaptive for a kid to go into the teen adult years. Like who is that person out

adult years. Like who is that person out there who's perfectly attuned to my needs all the time? Like I'm sure you and your wife that's not the way your relationship works. Definitely not me

relationship works. Definitely not me and my husband, right?

>> Definitely not. The best it gets is someone attunes to your needs a lot of the time and they take ownership when they don't and don't gaslight you and don't kind of throw you under the bus or

blame you for their reaction >> and they repair.

>> Mhm.

>> And so if we like play that out, right?

Yes. We are we're humans, not robots. We

have our own emotional life, our own triggers. And whether it's Aunt Sally's

triggers. And whether it's Aunt Sally's party or being lied to, or even, you know, it's like the end of the night. I

think a classic one, and I know this happens for me. Oh, chicken for dinner.

This is disgusting. And it's like everything you've done for the day and all the moments when you felt invisible.

And and the other things that happen that have nothing to do with your kid, it all completely overflows in your bucket of difficult moments I've had to hold together. And and you explode at

hold together. And and you explode at your kid. you're so ungrateful. You

your kid. you're so ungrateful. You

know, what do you mean? Kids around the world would be, you know, whatever we say. We lecture. You're spoiled. And it

say. We lecture. You're spoiled. And it

comes out often in a voice that's legitimately scary. And it's scary in

legitimately scary. And it's scary in part because our kids need us to survive. So you're like, wait, parent, I

survive. So you're like, wait, parent, I need for survival just became scary.

Parent, I'm distant from. It's it's a lot to manage. So that I would just say is the rupture moment. And I know this is the moment people listening are like, "Yep, that's it. I'm a monster. I've

messed up my kid forever." Those are two different things. Having a rupture

different things. Having a rupture moment is not who you are >> and it's not your future and it does not dictate your entire relationship.

Yelling at kids messes kids up far less than yelling at kids and not repairing after you've yelled. It's actually the not repairing that's really hard because

then kids are left alone with this intense set of feelings. They're

confused and they have to figure out like how do I feel safe again? What do I do to move on? And if kids aren't given a story by us to repair, they often make up a story. And it's often a story of self-lame cuz that's the only thing they have.

>> I'm a bad kid. Must be my fault. When

you repair with your kid, you you actually get to do something magical. I

always tell parents, you actually get to rewrite the ending of that chapter >> because instead of that one chapter of your kid's book being, I complained

about dinner and unleashed the scary voice from my parent and I went to my room and I felt alone and I felt really shaky. If you picture that as the ending

shaky. If you picture that as the ending of a chapter, you then get to go in and write, "And then my mom came in >> and she said, I'm sorry I yelled.

It's never your fault when I yell. I'm

working on managing my feelings so I respond more calmly even when I'm frustrated. I love you. It actually

frustrated. I love you. It actually

changes the way the memory lives in their body.

>> Those simple words, that approach.

>> Memory is an event and every other time you've remembered that event, which is why something like therapy is helpful.

>> So interesting. Why is therapy helpful?

My childhood didn't change. But

remembering certain things in the context of a new relationship changes the way the original memory lives in your body. You change the story around

your body. You change the story around the memory.

>> Yes.

>> And so every time you repair, whether it was a quick, "Hey, I'm sorry. Let me try that again. I'm sorry for yelling, you

that again. I'm sorry for yelling, you know, at you earlier." Or, "Hey, I listened to this podcast. I heard a couple things." And I think there were a

couple things." And I think there were a lot of years I just sent you to your room. I think there were a lot of years

room. I think there were a lot of years I never heard your side of the story.

And I'm guessing that just felt really bad. I'm sorry. And look, we definitely

bad. I'm sorry. And look, we definitely might need time to cool off when things are hot. But I'm going to really try to

are hot. But I'm going to really try to come to you and better understand instead of judge. And I want you to know I care about that. I I I mean, the way that lands in someone's body to reopen a file

>> and kind of give it a different ending.

Yeah. I I I believe it's the most powerful thing we can do.

>> Yeah. Even if they don't react well in the moment.

>> Yes. And this is what I want to undo the fantasy, right? Like I go to my teenage

fantasy, right? Like I go to my teenage son and I'm like, I'm so prepared. And

>> you know, and I picture my teenage son saying, >> "Mom, I've been waiting for you to say no. My teenage son is going to roll his

no. My teenage son is going to roll his eyes and be like, you're being so weird.

Get out of my room."

>> But in a way, a lot of us when we hear something emotionally resonant in our best kind of moments, we say to someone else, I just need to digest this.

>> Yes.

>> That that's what most kids are saying.

Whether it's a toddler saying, "I need a snack." Or it's my teenager saying,

snack." Or it's my teenager saying, "You're being weird. Get out of my room." I really think they're saying,

room." I really think they're saying, "That was a lot, and I actually just need to kind of push it away for a moment so I can ingest it in my own time." So, I would say, don't take the

time." So, I would say, don't take the bait. Trust that it mattered. Move on.

bait. Trust that it mattered. Move on.

Don't force the conversation. And I have a feeling you'll see evidence of the impact later.

>> Yeah. The point about repairing really lands well because I was thinking about when we were all learning how to drive.

It was inevitable that at some point we'd have an accident. So, you wanted to be mindful. You didn't want to be

be mindful. You didn't want to be neglectful when you were a driver and when you were trained. I've had car accidents and I think I'm a pretty good driver. I'm assuming with your nodding

driver. I'm assuming with your nodding right there. You've had a car accident.

right there. You've had a car accident.

My wife's had car accidents. Thankfully,

nothing too dangerous for any of us and anyone I know. But the reality is you're going to have some sort of an accident.

>> Yeah. And the biggest mistake you can make is to not repair your car when you have an accident and just keep driving that car around and getting into more accidents. And so that lands really

accidents. And so that lands really really well because it would be really strange if someone had told me that I was never allowed to scratch my alloys

or a rim or a hub cap or a a side of my car and I had to like drive with that level of I would probably have an accident simply because I was overthinking the whole thing.

>> That That's right. Or stay in your room all day.

>> Yeah. You wouldn't even go out, >> right? I mean, a life worth living has

>> right? I mean, a life worth living has inherent risk, right? And so, yeah, I think that's a really good metaphor.

You're going to make mistakes as a parent.

>> And if you see that as kind of a feature, not a bug, >> then then you can change the focus to, okay, what now? And look, while we're talking about repair, I think it's important to get in that one of the the

biggest things that gets in our way of repairing with our kid is that most of us haven't learned to repair with ourselves. Because what happens is we do

ourselves. Because what happens is we do this thing. I yell at my kid. I say

this thing. I yell at my kid. I say

they're spoiled brat. Whatever happens

in the kitchen when my son simply says maybe it's even just chicken for dinner again, but it's just enough for, you know, it feels like he's telling me I'm a bad mom, you know, or something like that. So, I've done this thing and for

that. So, I've done this thing and for so many people, they might have someone in their life or like this person is so stubborn. They never apologize. They're

stubborn. They never apologize. They're

so cold-hearted. I I see it a little differently. I tend to use like a most

differently. I tend to use like a most generous interpretation MGI perspective.

I think people who really don't apologize, they have a really hard time separating identity from behavior. And

that idea of separating who we are from what we do, identity from behavior is like a core principle of good inside and a core way we teach parents to see themselves and their kids, right? It

it's the difference between I yelled and I'm a monster versus I am a good parent who had a moment I'm really not proud of. And I actually find doing that with

of. And I actually find doing that with our hands really powerful because you can see the difference. I'm a good parent. identity one hand who did

parent. identity one hand who did something I'm not proud of another hand versus I yelled I'm a monster something's wrong with me it's an immediate there's no separation we can't

repair from this place we can't even function from this place the saddest thing is we can't learn from this place it's shame right shame is an animal defense freeze response we all should

know right when you are frozen you can't make movement and so people who don't apologize they usually have to hold this thing they did so far away from them.

They can't even look at it because it feels so eviscerating to their identity.

>> So, I actually think a first step for repair, I just yelled at my kid.

>> I mean, very practically for me, I I if I'm in some shame spiral, I sit somewhere quiet. It's often, you know,

somewhere quiet. It's often, you know, my bathroom. I close the door. I see the

my bathroom. I close the door. I see the toilet. I put my hand on my heart, put

toilet. I put my hand on my heart, put my feet on the ground, and I do say to myself a bunch of times, 5, 10, sometimes 20. Okay, Becky, I made a

sometimes 20. Okay, Becky, I made a mistake. I'm a good parent who did

mistake. I'm a good parent who did something I'm not proud of. even I'm a good parent who yelled like I'm a good parent who forces us as a sentence structure to separate those two things

and then it's interesting I'm in a place where I can think about it more also even before I pair with my kid what was going on I had a really bad day I honestly haven't worked out in a while I know that's something I need to do for

myself um I was really frustrated from work and I honestly just did not take a moment in my lobby to sit down and talk to myself about it and you know what I was probably just a ticking time bob I need to a couple things. I need to look

at my calendar and do something for me.

I need to take some deep breaths in the middle of the day. I need to sit in my lobby before I go upstairs and say, "What was the most stressful part of my day? Let me write about it. Let me do

day? Let me write about it. Let me do something to manage my emotions." The

only reason I can go through that learning process is actually because I've been able to separate what I did from who I was.

>> And now I can go to my son or my daughter, whoever it is, and actually give them a repair. And the other thing is when we don't repair with oursel, we do weird repairs with our kids and they're not repairs. They're either,

"I'm sorry I yelled, but if you didn't complain about dinner, it wouldn't have happened." That is not a repair.

happened." That is not a repair.

>> Or we say something like, "I'm sorry I yelled. It's it's okay, right? It's

yelled. It's it's okay, right? It's

okay, right? You forgive me." Like, we ask our kid to do our job for us. Like,

I picture like this 5-year-old kid who's like, "You're you're asking me to take care of your emotions after you yelled at me? That is not a relationship

at me? That is not a relationship pattern we want to establish. Right.

>> That resonates so strongly. Yeah. I feel

like if you don't go back and do the separation of the identity and behavior on your own, the kid actually just goes, I'm just not going to say how I feel around mom or dad or mom's just angry or

dad's just mad or whatever. And then

that becomes the label. Whereas when you actually get to go up to them and say, "Hey, I had a really tough day at work today. That is an excuse how I behaved

today. That is an excuse how I behaved with you.

>> Yeah. I'm really sorry about it. And um

you know Yeah. And and and you know that that kind of ability to even get them to have some context without making it their fault. I think what what you're

their fault. I think what what you're saying when we repair wrongly, we may give them the context but make it their fault. Like hey, I had a really tough

fault. Like hey, I had a really tough day today. So if you didn't say chicken

day today. So if you didn't say chicken wasn't terrible, I would have been fine.

Right.

>> So I hope you understand I had a bad day. And it's like oh but wait a minute

day. And it's like oh but wait a minute like that's too much for me to handle right now.

>> That's exactly right. Like and the thing that always like creeps me out in a good way cuz it makes me not do this is I picture my son I don't know now he's 30 40 let's say he's partnered and I'm at

his house visiting and he like screams at his partner I don't know in a nasty way and then I hear him say look I'm sorry I yelled but if you had remembered toilet paper like I asked you I wouldn't have yelled

>> I'd be like this feels like I don't want to be here this is a bad situation but if if I've always repaired Mhm.

>> in his childhood by saying, "I'm sorry I did a bad thing, but look, at the end of the day, your behavior caused me to do that thing." Why would I be surprised

that thing." Why would I be surprised that that's what he takes into the world, right? And and then I just want

world, right? And and then I just want to answer a question that's I know not actively being asked, but it comes up every time cuz parents are like, "But can't my kid ask if we could have a different dinner in a nicer way?" Or,

"Okay, maybe I didn't yell because my kid didn't listen about putting on his shoes, but if my kid put on his shoes, it wouldn't have happened. Help me

reconcile." separate the two things. I

would say do a real repair and then give yourself very practically like 24 hours.

Have a very different conversation which might be look there's going to be some days you don't like dinner. Is there a way you could tell me you don't like dinner that's equally as true for you as it is respectful for someone else? Or my

four-year-old won't put on his shoes or her shoes 24 hours later after I say sorry. Hey, mornings have been really

sorry. Hey, mornings have been really tough for both of us. I wonder if there's anything we can think about together that would make putting on shoes easier. I totally understand.

shoes easier. I totally understand.

That's realistic. But just don't don't collapse them together.

>> Yeah, that's that's the point. Yeah.

Usually, again, we do extremes. We

either disappear and hope that tomorrow is a new day, which doesn't work, it sounds like. Or we try and do everything

sounds like. Or we try and do everything in that first go at it, and then it then it collapses, too. What's been the hardest? You you've said this before

hardest? You you've said this before which I really like this idea of they're not giving me a hard time, they're having a hard time.

>> Yes.

>> And that differentiate is really powerful because I think our language is they're giving me a hard time.

>> Yeah. I mean, look, I'm sure you think about this in so many other contexts and it's the same as parenting. But to me, when you're in conflict with anybody,

you have one of two mindsets. Okay? the

first mindset and let's say it's us where it's like I'm on one side of the table and Jay is on the other side of the table and I'm just looking at you like you are the problem and we wouldn't

have a problem if you just came to my side and did something more like me, >> right? The other mindset is different.

>> right? The other mindset is different.

Instead of me against you where you're the problem, it's me and you on the same side of the table against a problem. I

actually think in business, in marriage, with your in-laws, definitely with your kids, you literally shouldn't have a conversation about something conflictual until you can get yourself in the me and

this person against a problem mindset.

My kid is giving me a hard time is such a good example of me against you. My kid

is having a hard time is me and you against a problem. And I love strategies and scripts. I'm sure we'll get into

and scripts. I'm sure we'll get into more of them. And I love all those things, but they all fall flat at the end of the day if you're not operating in an effective mindset. And to me, the most important thing a parent can do

when they're in a tricky situation with their kid, mornings are so tough. My kid

is giving me a hard time. They won't get out the door. Oo, I hear that phrase, giving me a hard time. How can I get into a me and my kid against a problem?

Me and my kid on the same team perspective because then I can think about it very differently. What might be getting in the way of my kid getting out the door? I guess they're going to

the door? I guess they're going to school. maybe getting out the door.

school. maybe getting out the door.

They're a smart kid. They kind of know as soon as they put their shoes on, they're saying bye to daddy. Maybe

that's it. And all of a sudden, something happens when you get in the same team mindset. I I think we always love our kids, but when we're in an opposite team mindset, nobody likes to

say this, but we stop liking them in the moment. And and there is nothing that is

moment. And and there is nothing that is a strategy that will matter more than the fact that your kid just feels that from you.

>> When we're on the same team, like something amazing happens. you start

liking your kid again. Now it's like a problem to solve together and everything becomes more effective from there.

>> What's been the hardest personal situation for you where you feel like you've just been in that zone where you yelled or you didn't like them or you were just repairing? Like what was the

hardest for you personally that took you the most time to get back to this?

>> I mean it happens. I just want to say I I I feel like parenting is more like yoga than anything else. like people who are really into yoga like it's it's the practice like there's no destination. So

I'm happy to share some stories and I will but I don't want anyone to think like oh that was then and this is now right like this is a constantly evolving muscle and our kids are always changing right so you know one of my kids my you

know my deeply feeling kid where she feels things more intensely the explosions are more intense and there can be huge reactions to things that seem small on the surface going to a

birthday party not having the chair she wants not watching a family movie that everyone else wants to watch right and it can feel in the time like why are you being so difficult

>> right versus hold on she's having a hard time with something by the way I want to say that doesn't mean I need to cater to that like it's not like she doesn't want to sit in this chair so hey everyone get

up so your sister can always have the chair she wants or oh we're going to watch the movie she wants I actually don't believe in that but again if that's the boundary part over here what can be hard yeah is getting back to hold

on she's a good kid who's having a hard time I think that phrase phrase to me that I put out in the world is is like one of the most important phrases just to like practice at random times in your head. I have a good kid who's having a

head. I have a good kid who's having a hard time. It becomes like a little song

hard time. It becomes like a little song >> in the same way as I'm a good parent who's having a hard time >> time, you know. Um and then I I mean I think I have a kid who's getting older who's a teen. I mean it's tricky. You

feel you feel rejected. It feels like it's on their time schedule. Like I want to talk to my kid all day and you know he doesn't he's doing his things. He's

with his friends and then it's 9:45 and I'm actually tired and maybe I'll get to bed early and he's like, "Mom, I want to talk." And of you know, my first

talk." And of you know, my first reaction is a little like >> I've been around all day.

>> Yeah. Like what? Like oh, now that you want to talk like you know and I kind of want to retaliate for something, right?

And then I try to take a deep breath on my good days and say this is adolescence. His job is to separate from

adolescence. His job is to separate from me. He's trying to figure that out. It's

me. He's trying to figure that out. It's

messy. He is supposed to be exploring the world, but but I always think with adolescence like they need to be explorers, not nomads. But when we take them so personally and then refuse to connect, we're actually just leaving

them >> as nomads, which is someone without a home base.

>> It's like, great, he's a teen. He's

doing his job. Let me take a deep breath. I have 5 minutes. Let me go to

breath. I have 5 minutes. Let me go to his room. Right. I think that's what it

his room. Right. I think that's what it kind of like looks like in real life.

>> Yeah. If I as a dad when I have a child, if they came up to me and they really were excited about something, they wanted to share it and I was busy with work or I said, "Hey, I just can't talk about that right now."

>> Yeah.

>> What what impact does that have?

>> First of all, I I I think there's some I don't know narrative out there like as a parent, we should be some type of always martyr, right? Like you're in the middle of a

right? Like you're in the middle of a project. I'm making this up. You're like

project. I'm making this up. You're like

you're, you know, we're similar like you have some idea. I got to get it down and it's going to whatever it is, you know, you're creating something. you're

working on something. A good parent is someone who drops that at every second to look at my kids's art project. I

don't know, whatever it is. I don't buy it. I don't buy it. No. Do I think a

it. I don't buy it. No. Do I think a good parent is someone who would never do that? Obviously not. Again, there's a

do that? Obviously not. Again, there's a middle ground. I think like most

middle ground. I think like most relationships, it's about the how. Can't

you see I'm working? This is ridiculous.

This is a Lego tower. It's kind of stupid. I have a big job. I wouldn't

stupid. I have a big job. I wouldn't

recommend that. That's not going to feel good. Okay. But if that's one extreme

good. Okay. But if that's one extreme and the dropping, you know, all the time is the other. I think what's in the middle, like kind of the sturdiness we talk about is, wow, it looks like you're working on something really interesting.

I really want to see it. You know what's crazy? I'm working on something really

crazy? I'm working on something really interesting and I need 5 minutes to finish it. I'm going to need those 5

finish it. I'm going to need those 5 minutes actually in silence, which is going to be a little annoying. I'm going

to ask you to leave my office and close the door. And I promise you right after

the door. And I promise you right after that, I'm going to come and I'm not going to have my phone. And I want to see this thing you built and hear all about it. There's this kind of almost

about it. There's this kind of almost wash, rinse, repeat that I think in these moments where boundaries and empathy and connection. They're they're

really not an either or. So many models of parenting have been one or the other.

And I think at Good Inside, we bring them together. And I think, you know, I

them together. And I think, you know, I don't know. I think about people work in

don't know. I think about people work in an office and they want to talk to their CEO. And that's what you want to hear

CEO. And that's what you want to hear from someone. I actually don't want a

from someone. I actually don't want a CEO who all the time is like, I'm going to drop everything. Of course,

>> right? Or you you're on a plane, >> right? and you know, you want to visit

>> right? and you know, you want to visit the pilot with, you know, with your kid or something, right? And they're getting the plane ready. You don't want a pilot who they're getting everything ready.

They're like, "Sure, come on in." You're

like, "Were you just fixing that engine?" Like, you know, "Hey, I'm in

engine?" Like, you know, "Hey, I'm in the middle of something. This is really important. I see your interest. That's

important. I see your interest. That's

awesome. I'll let you know when it's ready and then we'll do that." That

combination, boundaries, and empathy. To

me, that's always magic.

>> Yeah. It It was funny. I was thinking I was thinking of my kid coming running up to me and like, "Go away. I've got to interview Dr. Rebecca Kennedy on the podcast about how to be how to be a good parent. Like I'm like that's the No. And

parent. Like I'm like that's the No. And

and I appreciate that because that to me is just and I I'm that's really reaffirming to hear because I feel like that's just having good healthy adult conversations. That's what it is.

conversations. That's what it is.

>> And it's giving context and it's providing a perspective on why and what and where we're at. It's not just like, hey, I don't have time right now. I'm

doing something really important.

There's there's a validation of them, but there's a validation of yourself.

And again, they may not react well to that. They may when you come back

that. They may when you come back downstairs they might be like I'm not doing it anymore. Right. Like

>> that's right.

>> I don't care anymore. Like it was it's done. It's broken. Like I don't know.

done. It's broken. Like I don't know.

>> That's right. Lego is broken.

>> Or again like when I set some of the boundaries I feel really proud of with my kid. Take a different example, right?

my kid. Take a different example, right?

Like my kid is watching TV and the show is over and I told them they could watch that one episode and it's over and I have the remote cuz that's the thing.

It's like we leave our kid with the remote and we're surprised we have power struggles. They shouldn't have the

struggles. They shouldn't have the remote, right? cuz of course they're

remote, right? cuz of course they're going to want to watch more. They're

good kids who are addicted to TV like the rest of us. But let's say it's at the end and my kids like one more, one more. Maybe for whatever reason, I've

more. Maybe for whatever reason, I've decided it's really over tonight. Okay,

this is like sturdy leadership in action. I may say, look, I get it. It's

action. I may say, look, I get it. It's

so hard to stop watching TV. Honestly,

it's hard for me, too. It's kind of designed to feel like it's not enough.

You want to watch the next episode?

Something like that. Or, hey, you wish you could watch another one. Keep it

simple. Next part. And TV time is over.

I actually have the remote. I'm going to turn it off. I get it. That's annoying.

If I do that in my house, I fear and it's a fear that people hearing me think I do that and my kids like stand up and applause and they're like, "That was A+ parenting mom. I'm so lucky to have you.

parenting mom. I'm so lucky to have you.

You're keeping me safe from technology and you're validating my feelings." That

is that has never happened one time.

Actually, what's important for parents to know when you set a true boundary, I'm happy to talk about this cuz I think people get boundaries all wrong what they are. But when you set a true

they are. But when you set a true boundary, especially if your kid isn't used to it, your kid always responds in the same way, a tantrum every time. That

is your big reward as a parent. Like

you're like, I I just did the thing and this is the next thing. Like where's

where is the confetti? No confetti.

Okay. But if you actually know that your kid's tantrum is a sign that you did actually set a true boundary, you become a lot less reactive to it because unconsciously we

think our kids tantrum is a sign we're doing a bad job as a parent.

>> Our kids tantrum is often a sign we set a boundary and they're upset about it, which then means we can just do the next part of our job. can validate. Oh, I

know you wish you were an adult and could decide whatever number of TV shows you wanted to watch. But you better bet even as I'm saying that I'm not I'm not turning on the TV again. I'm not that's

not happening. Boundary. They get upset.

not happening. Boundary. They get upset.

We can validate. We hold the boundary kind of over and over.

>> And And where's like any emotional? Is

there any hugging? Is there like affection? Like or is

affection? Like or is >> Yeah, I think everyone's kid is different. One of my kids might really

different. One of my kids might really want that. I know it stinks. Come here.

want that. I know it stinks. Come here.

you know, and I'm hugging, right? Cuz

that's what happens in the best relationships, right? Where if I I don't

relationships, right? Where if I I don't know if if I was making not so good decisions for myself, even as an adult.

I don't know. I'm at a party and like seeing you and I'm like, Jay, I hate you. Your podcast stinks. I'm And my

you. Your podcast stinks. I'm And my husband was there. I would hope he'd like pick me up and carry me out and sit with me in a room. Not because that's something he did to me, because it was something he would do for me. And then

maybe even there I'd be like, "I had a bad day." And he'd be like, "I know

bad day." And he'd be like, "I know >> you had a rough time at Jay's party. I

was not your best." Right? So yeah,

maybe I'm hugging another one of my kids and be like, "Get away from me." And I might just kind of stay where I am and say nothing because my >> calm presence is the version of

connection she might want. Right? So, I

think that's where what I really love about Good Inside and what I see from like our members is they're like I love that they've taken the principles and then they take their unique knowledge,

their unique values, their unique awareness of what's happening and they apply it >> in a way that feels totally them.

>> Yeah, I I agree. I think the challenge we've created is that we think effective communication is when you get the perfect reaction.

>> Yes. And I don't think that's true as a parent or as an adult or or in any capacity because that's right, you could communicate something really exceptionally effectively and the

reaction is not the direct response to whether you communicated effectively or not. We think if the kid did applaud or

not. We think if the kid did applaud or there was confetti or they turned around and said, "Okay, mom, I'll go to bed."

We think that's a good day, right? So,

it's almost this idea of and this again applies to marriage too. You almost feel feel like when the person's just responding to you saying, "You're amazing. Well done." Or even if it's not

amazing. Well done." Or even if it's not that forward, the idea of, "I'm doing everything you tell me to," we see as a sign of good communication.

>> I see something very similar with so many parents, and I think this is maybe the biggest thing we love to help shift.

We use our kids' behavior or their reactions as a barometer of whether we're a good parent. And we lose oursel in the process because we're so busy

gazing out versus gazing in. What's a

version of gazing in? Is this a decision I believe in?

>> Do I feel like I'm actually being a good leader? Do I feel like this is a

leader? Do I feel like this is a decision maybe not only for today but for, you know, every once in a while when we have the energy, a decision that really helps our kid become the kind of teen and adult we'd want them to be, you

know. So, I heard this story from a

know. So, I heard this story from a parent the other day. It was really interesting. It was kind of this classic

interesting. It was kind of this classic public meltdown, right? Birthday party.

Her kid only wanted to sit next to the birthday party kid. I get this. It's a

big thing. Sitting next to the birthday party kid is a big deal.

Pizza time came cuz everyone has pizza.

They're birthday parties. Her kid had to go to the bathroom and she's like this is this is not going to be good because I know after the bathroom that seat next to my kid would elbow that's going to be

gone. It was gone. Okay. Major public

gone. It was gone. Okay. Major public

meltdown. All you know I had to have that seat. I need that seat mean I was

that seat. I need that seat mean I was like this kid's birthday party. So many

times I see this lack of sturdiness. I

see I'm making up this name. Nora. Nora.

We don't yell at other people's birthday parties. I mean, it is it is actually so

parties. I mean, it is it is actually so sad to witness because kids need us to embody our authority. I would say I couldn't say it's authority without aggression, which almost feels like an

oxymoron these days. It's rarely

modeled, but it's authority without aggression. Now, this mom was telling me

aggression. Now, this mom was telling me this story and she goes, "You know, it's interesting. Number of months ago, I had

interesting. Number of months ago, I had a family dinner. My child had this major meltdown. It was it was the worst day of

meltdown. It was it was the worst day of my week. Like, I felt like it was my

my week. Like, I felt like it was my biggest parenting fail." Here's what's crazy. I knew exactly what to do. I

crazy. I knew exactly what to do. I

picked her up first. I pulled her to the side. I said, "Oh, this is a hard time.

side. I said, "Oh, this is a hard time.

Look, this is a birthday party. That

seat's not available. These others are."

It just escalated further and further.

And as a parent, sometimes, you know, this is past the point of no return.

This is not not going to be a good situation. What I knew to do, I picked

situation. What I knew to do, I picked her up. I said, "Nora, I'm picking you

her up. I said, "Nora, I'm picking you up. I'm carrying you to the car. We're

up. I'm carrying you to the car. We're

just not going to be able to finish this birthday party today. You're a good kid having a hard time. You're not in trouble. I'm going to help you through

trouble. I'm going to help you through this. Her kid, no. Give me another

this. Her kid, no. Give me another chance. But she was far gone. Carried

chance. But she was far gone. Carried

her to the car. They drove away. They

got home. And she said to me, "Is it weird that that was my parenting win?" I

just thought it was so beautiful. I

don't think that's weird. I don't think that's weird at all. To me, the biggest wins we have in parenting and in so many parts of life are when we shift from my job is to

avoid all turbulence to I actually know exactly what to do in the turbulence.

And when you know what to do in the turbulence, which takes practice and learning and support and never being perfect, you actually feel stronger having piloted a plane through that storm

>> and safely gotten to ground rather than the anxiety of like >> I just need to avoid it.

>> Yeah. That's so we feel so fragile when we're doing that.

>> You've said before that it's not your job to make your kids happy, which applies to what you're saying right now.

>> Yeah. And what is a parent's job?

>> So, I I think I want to talk about both those things. Let's start with a

those things. Let's start with a parent's job and then why not only isn't our job to make our kids happy, but why it's actually a really bad thing for them. The idea of a parent's job has

them. The idea of a parent's job has actually come up for me because over and over I'd see people in my private practice and, you know, now through Instagram different things and they'd be like, "My kid's having a tantrum. My kid

is so mean to her brother. My kid won't do his homework." Whatever the situation was. And I'd say, "Okay, look, all

was. And I'd say, "Okay, look, all parents want to do a good job. I know

that." But I'd always say to a parent, just tell me, "What is your job? Forget

if you can perform it well. What is your job?" Every parent would look at me

job?" Every parent would look at me like, "I have no idea."

>> Yeah.

>> And then I think about just offices.

Like I picture someone coming to their job the first day and their boss saying, "Do a good job." And the person saying, "But but I don't have a job description.

I by the way, I also don't even know what that dude does over there. I kind

of need to know what that person's lane is. I definitely need to know what my

is. I definitely need to know what my job is >> if I'm going to do it well. So I think any parent listening is like it's true.

What is my job? If you don't know >> then there's immense clarity. Forget

trying to do it well. We just have to have the clarity in the foundation.

>> Absolutely.

>> So I think a parent always has two jobs.

It's almost every situation and I'll defined one of them which we didn't get to yet. So setting boundaries and

to yet. So setting boundaries and validating your kids's emotions and they go hand in hand.

>> Setting boundaries is widely misunderstood. I'll share what my

misunderstood. I'll share what my definition of boundaries are, which is as applicable to adults as it is to kid.

Boundaries are something you tell someone you will do and they require the other person to do nothing.

>> Mhm.

>> We often say, "This person doesn't respect my boundaries." To me, with respect, it's often a sign that someone has an inaccurate definition of a boundary because you're giving all your power to the other person.

>> So, I I often ask a parent, "Well, what do you mean your kid isn't listening yet? I live in New York City. This is

yet? I live in New York City. This is

like my kid and I always say when we go into the elevator buttons, don't press the buttons. Don't press all the

the buttons. Don't press all the buttons.

And then my kid goes and presses all the buttons. He does not respect my

buttons. He does not respect my boundaries. He has a listening problem.

boundaries. He has a listening problem.

Now, if you have a kid, like one of my kids who is 0% people pleasing. It's

going to take a little bit longer than other kids to manage urges. Okay. A

boundary isn't don't press the button.

Is that something I'm telling my kid I will do? No. Does it require my kid to

will do? No. Does it require my kid to do nothing? No. I'm giving all of my

do nothing? No. I'm giving all of my power to my four-year-old. A boundary

would be saying, "Hey, when we go into the elevator, I'm going to be between you and the buttons. I know it's fun to press the button, sweetie. It's just not something I'm going to allow." And yep, even if you lunge for it, I'm going to

block you. That It's true. It's like you

block you. That It's true. It's like you got to get like your like karate like there there's some moves in as a parent.

I'll teach you them. It's remarkably

like kind of, you know, some interesting dance moves going on, but that's a boundary. It's not something I'm doing

boundary. It's not something I'm doing to my kid. I'm doing it for him so I don't let him feel like an out of control kid. And this is important so I

control kid. And this is important so I don't let myself get so frustrated that I end up yelling random punishments I have no intention of keeping anyway. No

dessert tonight. And then I'm like actually you can have dessert. I don't I don't even care. I don't want you have a tantrum. Like this is what we do. So

tantrum. Like this is what we do. So

that's part of our job. Setting true

boundaries. Another great example of this. My kid takes the iPad when it's

this. My kid takes the iPad when it's not iPad time. First thing to a question. I'm like how? They're like,

question. I'm like how? They're like,

"What do you mean? How he just takes it?" If it's not iPad time, why does

it?" If it's not iPad time, why does your kid even have access to where the iPad is?

>> A boundary without words would be what I do. It's not, "Hey, don't touch the iPad

do. It's not, "Hey, don't touch the iPad in the kitchen." I'm sorry. I'm just

going to speak for myself. If my phone is in a room and someone tells me not to look at it.

>> Yeah, you're looking at it. Yeah.

>> I'm just not that I don't have a great hit rate there. Those things are very addictive. Okay. And I have more

addictive. Okay. And I have more self-control than my 5-year-old. Right.

A boundary would be saying, "Hey, from now on, just so you know, the iPad is going to completely out of reach, out of sight. It's not cuz I don't trust you.

sight. It's not cuz I don't trust you.

It's cuz those things are actually built to draw your whole body to them." It

really wasn't fair for me to put it somewhere >> and ask you not to get it. So, it's just going to be away until it's iPad time.

When it's over, it will shut off and then I'll put it back in that place.

>> Done. That's part of our job. The other

part of our job is connecting to our kids' feelings. is seeing our kids'

kids' feelings. is seeing our kids' feelings as real while not allowing those feelings to overpower us. That is

so important. People think validating a kid's emotions means agreeing with their emotions.

It does not.

My kid is having a grilled cheese. They

always like it cut into rectangles.

These things matter. And I cut it into rectangles. And today is the day the

rectangles. And today is the day the kids like, I need it in triangles, right? Whatever it is. Now, to me, I

right? Whatever it is. Now, to me, I know intellectually like this feels crazy. I actually thought about how to

crazy. I actually thought about how to cut it. I cut it in a rectangle. That's

cut it. I cut it in a rectangle. That's

how you usually like it, but I don't have to agree. Who knows what this is really about? Validation would just be,

really about? Validation would just be, "You really wish it was in a triangle today." Or, "Oh, this feels really bad.

today." Or, "Oh, this feels really bad.

It feels like the grilled cheese isn't even going to be yummy when it's cutting this way." People often think if I do

this way." People often think if I do that, that means I'm making a new grilled cheese. Depending on the day, if

grilled cheese. Depending on the day, if I want to, maybe I will. maybe I won't because I'm holding the boundary. But

validation is simply seeing someone else's experience as real for them. And

I think when you think about those two jobs, boundaries and validation, the reason they're so important is I I kind of profoundly believe that kids are always asking two questions. Am I safe?

And our boundaries answer that. And am I real? Because kids have such intense

real? Because kids have such intense feelings. I mean, you and I have intense

feelings. I mean, you and I have intense feelings. And the thing about feelings

feelings. And the thing about feelings that's so fascinating is when you fall and skin your knee, you see blood. So

you're like, "Ow, that's painful." But

then you often have some representation of how it's real. Well, I'm bleeding or I have a black and blue. Feelings are

very unique. They are such visceral sensations coursing through your body without any external manifestation. and

there's no blood test to like tell you you're having anger. So that's very confusing for kids. And so part of what happens for kids when they're feeling intense emotions is we sometimes take

the bait too much about the concrete thing they're upset about. What they're

really trying to figure out, which is really the basis of confidence, is are the things that I am perceiving, feeling in my body, are those things real?

Because I have to know if they're real before I can learn how to manage them. I

feel like a lot of people think that their job is to make their kids good people or to be successful or to do well or be able to survive the real world

when they grow up.

>> Would you say that am I safe and am I real which I love those questions. Would

you say that boundaries and validation almost will help do all those things?

>> I think that's a beautiful question because I guess I'm zoomed zoomed in to often like well what is my job in the moment and I think what you're saying is like what is my goal for my kid? I have

those goals for my kids. I want them to be resilient, which really means I want them to be able to handle challenges and know that they can bounce back from hard things. I want them to be able to

things. I want them to be able to tolerate discomfort, not avoid it or look for the quickest exit from it. I

want my kid to feel really at home in their body. I want my kid to feel

their body. I want my kid to feel confident, which to me has nothing to do with feeling good about yourself. Is

actually about selfrust, which is why it goes back to feeling like your feelings are real and feeling like you are a better perceiver of your feelings than other people are for you. Yes, I do

believe, of course, there's a lot more nuance, but in general, setting boundaries, staying connected to your kid by validating their emotions.

There's other things, too, right?

Supporting them in their struggle, not rescuing, asking yourself pretty often, am I still doing things for my kid that they can start to learn how to do for themselves, and how can I solely back

away? How can I set my kid up for

away? How can I set my kid up for capability, not fragility? Right?

There's other things, but in general, yes, I think boundaries and validation when paired together, they do. That's

what makes for really resilient adults.

>> I I I would agree with you, and I've never heard it that way before. And I I really like that because I think sometimes when we think, "Oh, I want to have kind kids." And then we're trying

to model kindness for them. But the

problem is if kindness is free of boundary and free of validation or kindness looks like validation with no boundaries to us.

>> That's right. and then they're not getting kindness because they don't know what self-kindness looks like and they only see the martyr or the self-sacrificed version of kindness, quote unquote, and then that isn't an

accurate form of kindness. Now they

think kindness means I'll do things for people even if they exploit, abuse, or don't have any set of understanding with me. So they don't become a kind person.

me. So they don't become a kind person.

They become someone that people take advantage of.

>> I think I think that's really poignant, right? And and look, it's true. I think

right? And and look, it's true. I think

this thing people say flippantly like I'll be in a dinner or something, you know, and someone's like, "Don't you just want your kids to be happy?" And I always I always picture my husband being like, "Becky, please don't ruin that was just a throwaway comment." Like, "Don't >> this is amazing.

>> It'll be a bummer." You know, and then like half the time I listen, half the time I'm like, "Actually, it's not what you want." Everyone's like, "What?" I'm

you want." Everyone's like, "What?" I'm

like, "Sorry, I just can't help myself."

Um, but and again, we love as humans, we hear someone say, "No, that's not true."

And then people will say to me, "You want your kids to be unhappy?" Obviously

not. There's again so much in between two extremes. But here's the thing about

two extremes. But here's the thing about optimizing for happiness in childhood. I

I firmly believe and I've seen it over and over that the more you optimize for happiness in childhood, >> the more you actually wire for anxiety in adulthood.

>> Explain that.

>> Let's take a situation that happens often and then I'll zoom out, but I think the stories matter.

>> Please. Yeah.

>> Um they do.

>> I'm the only one in my class who can't read. My kid comes home and says this.

read. My kid comes home and says this.

This is first of all, let me just say this is so painful. Like seeing your kid in pain as a parent, >> it's so painful. I think a lot of our instinct is let me make my kid happy,

right? And and we all me too. I will say

right? And and we all me too. I will say the craziest things. I'm like, well, Bobby isn't even good at lacrosse. At

least you're good at lacrosse. That's

going to matter more. And I'm like, why am I throwing Bobby under the bus? What

did Bobby do? He's like a totally nice kid. Whatever it is, we say nutty

kid. Whatever it is, we say nutty things, right? Um and so I'm the only

things, right? Um and so I'm the only one in class who can't read, right? And

so I think an image helps here a lot because it explains why we don't want to make them happy and it explains resilience and anxiety all at once. So

the way I think I want someone to imagine this is your kid is kind of wandering around a garden and there's benches in this garden. A lot of them and right now they're on the bench of I'm the only one who can't read. But I

think you and I Jay we know that's not really the bench. The bench is I see people who are able to do things I can't do >> or I feel jealous or I feel less than.

And the truth is that is a bench you will sit on at various times for the rest of your life.

>> Yeah. That feeling of >> everyone else can read better than me is something you're going to feel at college, at work >> life. Or maybe it's I wasn't invited to,

>> life. Or maybe it's I wasn't invited to, you know, whoever's birthday party. You

know what? You're going to I'm I'm not included in something. I don't have that popular belong the rest of your life. So

if I picture my kid on this bench, I think as parents, we often have two instincts. Number one, we try to we try

instincts. Number one, we try to we try to convince our kid that their bench isn't their bench. That can't be true.

You can't be the only one not reading yet. Even though our kid is kind of like

yet. Even though our kid is kind of like telling us, right? Which over time, if that's the pattern, creates a ton of self-distrust. Oh,

self-distrust. Oh, >> maybe other people know how to perceive my world better than I know how to perceive this world. All in the name of trying to not make my kid uncomfortable.

or we see a sunny bench on that side of the garden and we're kind of like just come you're an amazing lacrosse player, you're the fastest kid, but you're an amazing artist and and all of that can

be true, but if you think about to me what anxiety is, I don't think anxiety is a feeling as much as it's a running away from a feeling. It's kind of the

experience of I don't want to be feeling the way I am right now.

>> So, a kid is wiring up their body.

They're understanding how the world works and they're understanding in childhood what feelings and experiences are tolerable and what feelings and experiences are intolerable. The latter

become anxiety. So, mom, I'm the only one who can't read and I'm like, "Oh, that's not true." Or, you know, I just kind of fix it right away or I throw them a party to make them distracted.

So, what does my kid learn in their body? I was feeling disappointed, less

body? I was feeling disappointed, less than. And what kids wire next is our

than. And what kids wire next is our response.

And what comes next is escape into happiness, escape into distraction.

>> And if we think about this bench, my kid is sitting on this bench. And I think we're all in those moments just looking for someone to sit down next to us.

Because the thing is, if my parent can sit on this bench with me, it can't be as awful as I think it is. It literally

if they yank me from it or try to convince me it's not true. What they're

really saying is you're feeling upset.

But I I can't really connect to the part of you that feels this way. I can't do that. That is so

that. That is so scary for a kid because they're like, I guess this really is bad. And so in the name of kind of making our kid happy,

what we really do is we develop a whole range of emotions. our kids learn are intolerable and if we think about what anxiety is later on kind of okay so let's say this kid later on again I'm not this is not

one intervention this would be many many patterns right but whenever a kid is upset optimize for happiness optimized for happiness I think the thing we realize at a certain age it's different

for everyone 14 18 50 whatever it is is when I'm really upset about something and something doesn't go my way there actually isn't always an offramp to

happy like when I fired from my job. I'm

not going to be happy in an hour. I

mean, and I mean this. I mean, but seriously, I guess maybe if I go to drugs, I'll be happy right away. I mean,

maybe if I have something else, but feelings don't work that way.

>> Yeah.

>> And and there's no one, I don't think, who's just given me a new job. like and

so by the time I get to those hard moments in adult life either I've developed the ability to cope with

feelings or I'm so accustomed to always expecting happiness that ironically the way I feel my distress is even more

intense because the gap is so big, right? It's kind of like the light goes

right? It's kind of like the light goes on of distress and I've always expected it to go totally off. I don't even have a dimmer switch anymore. It's just on is horrible and I need it to go off. When I

think about what that means and then I like to give parents like an alternative. My kid says I'm the only in

alternative. My kid says I'm the only in my class who can't read. I actually

think there's three lines like cuz I like Yeah. that can like really embody

like Yeah. that can like really embody the idea of what I say like we always say good inside the feelings bench. Sit

on the bench. Sit on the bench and and you become a bench warmer. Right. So,

the first one is just I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. This is so powerful in marriage, too. Like, or

work, you know? Hey, I feel like you've been on your phone a lot, and I don't know. I feel really disconnected.

know. I feel really disconnected.

Imagine if the first thing your partner says back is, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this." What you're actually saying in a deep attachment way is, "The part of you who feels this way is attachable to me.

>> I'm sitting with you. I'm so glad you're talking to me about this." Yeah, they were handing out books and everyone got chapter books and I got this baby picture book. The second line, ultimate

picture book. The second line, ultimate confidence builder is just I believe you. We can talk more about that. I

you. We can talk more about that. I

think those are the three most important lines in parenting often. Just I believe you. And then the third is going to feel

you. And then the third is going to feel remarkably unsophisticated but is so powerful is just tell me more. Tell me

more. Oh yeah. And then and then it was like me in a reading group of one and my friends were on this other reading group. And the amazing thing that

group. And the amazing thing that happens 99% of the time, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. I

believe you. Tell me more. Your kid then tells you the story. What you're really saying is, "I'm on the bench with you.

I'm not afraid of this bench. I don't

need to take you to a sunny bench. I'm

here. How bad could a bench be if I'm willing to sit on it? I'm not going to let us both self-destruct. I am here."

And then what happens 99% of the time truly in this visual is your kid gets off the bench before you do. They

literally like I've seen this a million times. My kids are like, "Oh, can I have

times. My kids are like, "Oh, can I have that snack now?" And I'm like, "I'm sorry, what?" Oh, okay. Like you just

sorry, what?" Oh, okay. Like you just wanted to know that I could tolerate this, that I could be with you in this.

And then what we do in their body is not with the story cuz the story is just a representation of a feeling.

Disappointment jealousy embarrassment whatever it is, has a little bit more of a container and a home. So the next time a kid feels that feeling, it's not as panicky as a home. And if you think

about your body as all these jars of feelings, and this is the irony about happiness, the more jars we have to contain different parts of our distress,

the more space there is >> for happiness. Anyway,

>> yeah, that's that's a beautiful visual as well. It's a really nice thing to

as well. It's a really nice thing to think about. Is there a part of that do

think about. Is there a part of that do you then address the reading challenge or what do you do from a practical standpoint on that after that moment?

>> Love it. So, right. So, let's say this is happening and then you're thinking like, does my kid need a reading tutor?

Do I just need to spend all of that can happen?

>> Now, I I think what kids really feel in our first response, I'm the only one who class can't read. Okay, one second. I'm

calling the reader tutor right now. In a

way, the visual again is like, my kid is still alone on the bench. Like, where'd

my mom go? Where'd my dad go? She is,

you know, I just So, I would say again, just like stay for a bit.

>> I I think one of the most underutilized things in parenting is time. It's like

and I think >> we don't have Yeah.

>> Yeah. Or maybe we do have, >> you know, I can call that too. Why don't

I just give myself to the night? Let me

sleep on it because my kid is going to pick up on kind of my panic and my own anxiety around it. So, absolutely, if that was me, I might think, "Ooh, maybe

I need to sit with my kid. Maybe I need to teach them some phonics." Does it have anything to do with phonics? Are

they a kid who's kind of perfectionistic and they're just not wanting to try because they're failing? Do they have a a sibling who's really gifted and so they've labeled themselves as the not smart kid? Again, there could be a

smart kid? Again, there could be a million things. It might not even be an

million things. It might not even be an academic tutor, but I think when you sit on the bench, you give yourself also a little bit more time to tolerate it. You

can access your curious mind and then absolutely of course I'm I love taking action, but it but it would be from like a sturdier place >> and in a way that's actually going to be more helpful to your kid.

>> Yeah, that's that I I couldn't agree more. I mean, I know when I've done the

more. I mean, I know when I've done the healthy thing or the unhealthy thing in my marriage, like it's really common. I

remember the other day my my wife approached me and she had this new business idea that she just shared with me randomly in a moment and I was like, "Yeah, we can't do that right now cuz we're doing this thing over here. Like,

we're already building this and that's going to" And she was like, "Just give me an opportunity to just tell you about it." Like, and she she said in she

it." Like, and she she said in she called me out in a nice way and she was just like, "I literally just wanted to share something I was really enthusiastic about." And I was like, "Oh

enthusiastic about." And I was like, "Oh god I'm >> Totally." She's like, "Sit on my

>> Totally." She's like, "Sit on my enthusiasm bench for a moment."

>> Literally, that's all she wanted me to do. And and you know, she was she was

do. And and you know, she was she was more than willing to hear my logical reason as to why it's not the right time or maybe it was or maybe I and I was and and again, it was a complete reflection

of my own insecurity or anxiety I was having around something else.

>> Yeah.

>> And I was reflecting that, projecting that on to her. and she was kind enough to call it out to me in a in a way that didn't lead to an argument >> which it may have in the past like you know which maybe maybe 5 years we've

been together for 12 years but 5 years ago maybe we would have dealt with that very differently but her being able to say that to me I was like yeah you're right actually like you just were excited to share something with me and I

had the time I was there with you I was just giving you I wasn't even listening >> yeah I wasn't present >> and I and I just want to be clear like I talk a really good game this whole sitting on the bench thing it's it's hard of Of course I don't do that all

the time. We're we're all like we're in

the time. We're we're all like we're in a rush. We just want to fix and move on.

a rush. We just want to fix and move on.

But these ideas and doing them a little bit more often or trying them one time.

>> Yeah.

>> It's really cool to see what happens.

>> Well, I think you hit the nail on it.

The fix and move on. It's like that's we want to remove the pain of the people we love, right?

We want to be able to extract the pain in that moment and we see that as success. For us, healthy parenting or

success. For us, healthy parenting or healthy relation is if you share a pain with me, if I can take it away right now like magic, then I've done my job. And

therefore, we call the tutor. We I say, "Oh, here are all the logical list of reasons. Don't worry about it." It's

reasons. Don't worry about it." It's

this fix and move on. And what you're asking us to do is not fix until later.

It's almost like don't move. Sit right

here.

>> Yeah.

>> And then think about fixing it maybe in 24 hours, 48 hours and trying to figure out what what the problem is. But it's

completely the opposite of what we think success is.

>> It is. And I think kind of having that idea in your mind really matters to start the different actions. Like wait,

even if I just say it, like we all have to try on ideas before we believe them.

It's not my job to remove my kid's distress. It's not my job to make my kid

distress. It's not my job to make my kid happy. If my kid has a really hard day,

happy. If my kid has a really hard day, that is not a sign I have failed. Now, I

I like to take hard ideas and turn them like so far on their head that they become hyperbolic. And so, I'll share

become hyperbolic. And so, I'll share here because it might be useful because now that I work the amount I do, right?

I think about the the time that I have with my kids, right? I'm like, I really want to make the most out of it. And

there was this period when my kids were younger. I was like, man, I come home,

younger. I was like, man, I come home, it's just like a tantrum and whining.

And it's really easy. I hear this from friends, too. Like, that's what I come

friends, too. Like, that's what I come home to. like I I bust my butt to leave

home to. like I I bust my butt to leave work early, to come home, to the tantrum, to the whining. Okay, but

here's here's a way to shift it, right?

Or to hear about my kid being left out, these painful things. I I know a lot of people, and I definitely would put you in this category, who are driven by impact. And I actually think as humans,

impact. And I actually think as humans, we have a lot of needs. I actually think impact is a need. Like I think we need to feel impactful in the world. When our

kids are perfectly happy, mom, you came home from work. Thank you. Also, I got 100 on my test and three of my friends are planning parties. I was invited to all of them and in general just feeling 10 out of 10. Okay, that's never

happened. But let's just say that did.

happened. But let's just say that did.

>> I would love to witness that moment, but I promise you I'm not impactful in my kids' life in that moment. My kids fine, moving on. I don't even know how many of

moving on. I don't even know how many of us need anybody when that's happening.

Yeah, >> but I started to do this reframe to myself and it was very extreme cuz that's the only way it caught for me where I was coming home, my kid was having then that tantrum about whatever

it is. The blue cup wasn't blue enough

it is. The blue cup wasn't blue enough today. I don't know, something like

today. I don't know, something like that. And I started to say to myself,

that. And I started to say to myself, Becky, >> this is my bang for my buck moment.

Literally, this is the moment if I'm driven by impact that that I want to be home for because my kid is probably just releasing the stress of their day or the

blue cup is too blue as a way of saying there's so many little things in my day, mom, that didn't go the way I wanted and I haven't released it until now. And if

I can be there in that moment, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to say it's like purely enjoyable. But oh my goodness, is

purely enjoyable. But oh my goodness, is it impactful >> and that really really matters down the road.

>> And it motivates you too in the moment.

>> It kind of does motivate me. The other

thing that motivates me too is, you know, I think about this thing that happened with one of my kids where they have this these projects in his school and some of the projects for this week are really good. They're like amazing.

We live in New York. They're like these amazing opportunities and I'd say three or four of them are like everyone's like those are the bad ones like life. So

there's how good of a project you get and then also they split up kids into groups. So kids want to be with their

groups. So kids want to be with their friends. So there's always factors. How

friends. So there's always factors. How

many of my friends am I with did I get the good project? First project we came out. My son got it just was the worst

out. My son got it just was the worst project with not a soul. He knew it was like the right.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay,

>> so this is the moment I think and my kid my son obviously he was like really upset. Again, I don't have kids who are

upset. Again, I don't have kids who are like this is a learning moment. No, he

was like really upset. Why is this the case, right? Okay, so the phrase I've

case, right? Okay, so the phrase I've developed that that I do think is powerful just cuz it gets me in a different mindset is sick joy. And I'll

explain what I mean. Okay, I know what really matters in life going forward is being able to stay grounded when things don't go your way.

>> Mhm. He might not get into his college of first choice. He might not get the job he wants. He might, you know, whatever it is. Go buy a car and he thinks he's getting a certain car and they don't have that one in stock. I

mean, not getting the thing you want is I don't, it happens every day in adult life. And I think you and I know adults

life. And I think you and I know adults who are no more prepared to deal with those situations well than they were when they were two. It's just adult versions of tantrums. >> We can't build skills for experiences we

don't have. We can't buy that skill. We

don't have. We can't buy that skill. We

can't verbalize it. We can't lecture it.

You have to feel it. It's just the unfortunate truth. And I think

unfortunate truth. And I think especially if you live a life where there's a decent amount of privilege, which my kids have, like there's a lot of ease in moments. And so, look, I did

not say to my son, cuz I don't want to I'm not going to walk myself into a bomb. This is a good situ. No, I'm not

bomb. This is a good situ. No, I'm not going to say that, okay? But in my head, I really mean this. Instead of being like, my urge is to take that away. I'm

like, you know what? Like, I have a little sick joy. like this is this is not going to be fun for the next 3 days.

First of all, he needs to borrow my belief in him. If I can't believe he can get through this, if I'm like calling the school right away, you need to change.

>> What I'm really saying to him is, I see you as a very fragile human.

>> And kids form their identity through us.

We are their mirror. We show them who they are. I'm basically saying, you are

they are. I'm basically saying, you are fragile. You can only operate

fragile. You can only operate successfully when things go your way.

ish entitlement, all the things we don't want. And so a part of me is like, this

want. And so a part of me is like, this is so good for him. It's actually funny.

There are this is this dynamic you'll see when you if you have kids where people call the school a lot and they're like, I need my kid to be with this teacher and these three best friends.

One, I was telling the story to one of my friends about, you know, the middle school project and my friend who knows me well goes, did you call the school and ask him to get the worst project with no friends?

>> And I was like, so good.

>> No, I I didn't go that far.

>> Sick joy. But that is like but like if you really totally shift your mindset because how we respond as you know >> is mindset. It's our framework. The

events are the same but when your framework changes everything changes. So

if you're like my kid didn't make the soccer team. Holy moly. Not enjoyable

soccer team. Holy moly. Not enjoyable

painful for both of us. But I can really have an impact that probably when he's 25 he's not going to thank me for. I

know he's going to function better because this happened and how I showed up. And I think that's so amazing to

up. And I think that's so amazing to hold on to.

>> I love that for two reasons. The first

is that I think we have a warped view of what care is.

>> So we think care means let me call. Let

me figure it out. Let me get you a better friend group. Let me get you a better project. So we're thinking that

better project. So we're thinking that that's what care looks like. And now my kid knows I care for them. But actually

what you're saying in your words is I don't believe in you. I'm not sure you can get through this and I can fix everything. And so instead of them

everything. And so instead of them thinking, oh, mom cares about me, it's mom or dad or whoever it may be can fix everything because they don't trust in me.

>> Yes.

>> And then the other part why I love that answer is because you're also not doing what I think we often do with our family and friends and because I'm not a parent, I've not done it with a child, but you're trying to teach the lesson

before living the lesson.

>> Right? So, you're trying to teach the lesson where it's like, "This is a good thing." And your kids are like, "No,

thing." And your kids are like, "No, it's not, Mom. I hate this." And you're like, "No, it's a really good thing.

You'll learn in the long term that this is the best thing that ever happened to you." And the kids like, "What are you

you." And the kids like, "What are you talking about?" And so, rather than

talking about?" And so, rather than like, "Let's just do it for 3 days."

>> That's exactly right. Like, I I'm not a marathon runner. I'm not in terribly

marathon runner. I'm not in terribly good shape. But if I was and I was

good shape. But if I was and I was running a marathon and someone's like, "This is an amazing thing. Are you

loving every I'd be like, "I'm sorry.

I'm going to feel really good about myself the day after the marathon. I I

don't know that like no one feels great I don't think climbing Mount Everest.

You do it for an experience you bear down. You know it's going to be really

down. You know it's going to be really hard and at some point you look back and you're like that was good for me. So I

think that and what you said also that just made me had a new thought. when we

call the school, when we do the puzzle, when we fix the friendship issue, right?

Assuming it's not some really intense abusive bullying, okay, we might end up feeling capable, but we steal our kids' capability. We steal it

from them. We I called the school. I

from them. We I called the school. I

fixed it. My kid is now deprived of an opportunity to watch themselves do something they thought they couldn't do.

I I I don't I don't think we want to take that away from our kids. Yeah, my

my wife's talked about that all the time. She talks about how like when she

time. She talks about how like when she was a kid, if she wanted to not go to the dentist or not go to the doctor, whatever it was, she'd get her or even as a teenager at this point, she'd get her older sister to make the call and

she wouldn't want to make the call. And

so, as she's got older, it's got harder and harder and harder for make these calls or to cancel something or whatever it may have been. And it took her so long, even probably in through when we first started dating cuz then she'd ask my

opinion or ask me to do it and I'd be like, "No, you do it." Right?

>> Because I grew up the other way where I always did everything like paid for my car insurance, paid for my first car, my phone bill. So, I was very comfortable

phone bill. So, I was very comfortable doing those things. And I was like, "No, but I don't want to be seen as a savior in this situation. I also don't want to be seen as like I'm I'm the hero of this scenario because I don't want to make

you dependent on me for, you know, for those things." And it was really

those things." And it was really interesting for her. And now she'd look back and she'd be like, "Oh my gosh, like I was just never given the opportunity."

opportunity." >> That's right.

>> To do really not and I'm not going to those things feel hard at the time. And

so I don't want to take that away. But

yeah, if you never get given the ability and the opportunity later on it's going to make you really unstable.

>> Yeah. And and I'm I'm really big on helping parents teach these kids because again I think there's a lot between two extremes. One extreme is well think

extremes. One extreme is well think about it. Okay. Like your kid can't make

about it. Okay. Like your kid can't make their sports practice and they have access to a computer for an email to their coach. So easy just write the

their coach. So easy just write the email, right? Okay. So, one extreme is

email, right? Okay. So, one extreme is write the email to your coach and your kid might be like, I can't do it, right?

It's not a big deal. Write it and over here is I'll write it for you. Yeah, I

really believe in a middle ground. Your

kid is nervous, right? But there's a lot between it's not a big deal. Do it

yourself and I'll do it for you. And I

think that can start with look, I get it. It's a new thing to write your own

it. It's a new thing to write your own email. Yes.

email. Yes.

>> Here's what I can do.

>> Yes.

>> You know, give me a couple minutes. I

need to finish this worst project. Then

I'm going to give you my full attention.

Let's sit at your computer together >> and let's start writing the email together. Scaffolding. Yeah. Right. Just

together. Scaffolding. Yeah. Right. Just

like we >> kids don't go from not knowing how to swim to swimming in the ocean.

>> Yes.

>> There's scaffolding. Okay. Well, how

could you start bring Okay. Dear. Whoa.

Okay. I'll teach you. You also you often start dear. Dear, what's your coach's

start dear. Dear, what's your coach's name? Coach. Okay. Oh, yeah. Dear. Okay.

name? Coach. Okay. Oh, yeah. Dear. Okay.

Yeah. And then you do a comma. Do you

see where the comma is right there? But

I make my kid press it. Great. Then you

press return. What is something you could do? You can lead your kid to the

could do? You can lead your kid to the water. How could you tell Coach Mike

water. How could you tell Coach Mike something like, "I'm not able to go to practice today." And your kids going to

practice today." And your kids going to say, "I guess I could say I'm not able to go to practice." That's yes. Yeah.

That great, but let them have the win.

Help them type it, right? Maybe the next time you check in on them. Like that's I think the middle ground. And if we think again, kids aren't born with the skills.

And then you think about yourself as a coach.

>> Good coaches in any sport don't usually say this isn't a big deal.

>> Yeah.

>> But they also don't make the layup for someone, right? Mhm. No, it's such a

someone, right? Mhm. No, it's such a great way of putting it. It's and I and I like the whole how good insight is based on this middle ground.

>> Yeah.

>> Because we all get lost on the edges and on the corners and the extremes and we keep oscillating between these two ways of being rather than realizing, well, it's a bit of this and a bit of that and

probably not all the way on either side.

And it's so much more easier to think about it like that because I think our brain does this thing where it goes, well, should I be assertive or should I be affectionate? And it's like, well, be

be affectionate? And it's like, well, be assertively affectionate, like, you know, rather than >> rather than Yeah. Do I be kind or do I be like, you know, do I challenge them?

And it's like, well, figure out a way to kindly challenge them, like, which is what you just did in this email writing, which was like it was a challenge, but you were kind about it. And all of a sudden, and it's so real that that's

what we all want. If I think about anything my parents failed at teaching me, it was because it was just expected that I should know how to do it. And

anything they wanted teaching me was because they sat down and did it with me or someone did. And I remember I worked at a company where I learned how to cold call when I was like 15 years old.

Probably one of the best lessons I've ever learned in my entire life. But it

only worked because this guy called Joel sat next to me who was a pro at it. And

he sat next to me for my first like 10 calls and would write out the words for me and script and coach for me. And then

I did 290 phone calls after that without him.

>> Yeah. And it was just those 10 calls that made me feel so confident. I didn't

know what cold calling was. And now

everyone's listening going, "What the hell is cold calling?" But it was when you were trying to sell stuff over the phone to people you didn't know. Uh and

back in the day.

>> Back in the day. Yeah. And it was just that kind of an experience of Yeah.

having someone hold my hand and have a script and kind of could see me stress out on the phone when someone said something I didn't expect and kind of put a word in front of me and it was like, "Oh, okay. That's how you do it."

>> Yeah. And look, I think this stuff it's so old in our body, right? Like I think about an issue I was having with one of my kids a year or two ago. It's small

issue just like why is this towel on the floor? Why is it always on the floor? I

floor? Why is it always on the floor? I

actually am not someone who cares about my kids having like a very neat room. I

don't know why I look into it in therapy but like the towel the wet towel on the floor is just it's a thing my kids know I care about and there's not that many things like that. So it's on the floor and every time how hard is it how hard

is it to take your towel and put it on the hook, right? Like there's so many ways. And if we go back and you think

ways. And if we go back and you think about your equivalent in your childhood of towel on the floor, right? I think

that's what a lot of us were met with just like our parents' frustration again. They were doing the best they

again. They were doing the best they could with the resources they had, >> right? But the best bosses in the world

>> right? But the best bosses in the world if they get a report from someone that's not good. I can't imagine. They're like,

not good. I can't imagine. They're like,

"How did you do it like this?" Like,

"Well, I don't know how to do it differently then." And so I thought

differently then." And so I thought about this and I find a helpful question with your kid >> to to start with be like, "Okay, wait. I

have a good kid. Let me remind myself. I

like my kid.

>> I have a good kid.

>> What is a skill my kid would need to develop to be better able to even pick up the towel on the floor?

>> And when I asked myself that question, something crazy happened. Just I had a thought I'd never had before cuz of the mindset shift. I said, I wonder if he

mindset shift. I said, I wonder if he notices it. Like when I look in his room

notices it. Like when I look in his room and the towel's on the floor, I don't notice anything in the room except that towel. But I know this there's so many

towel. But I know this there's so many times that me and my husband where he's like, "Did you not see this?" And I was like, "Oh, it just wasn't capturing my attention." So I realized that and then

attention." So I realized that and then I realized he probably walks by it, he goes out, it's not in his mind. So we

talked I talked to him about this. I

said, "Hey, this has become a thing. I

don't want to keep fighting. What would

you need to do to remember to pick up your towel?" And the first he's like, "I

your towel?" And the first he's like, "I don't know." And I was like, "Well,

don't know." And I was like, "Well, where do you walk like in your room before you go out?" He's like, "I always go by my door." Mhm.

>> So, >> well, what would you need to do or even put around your door to remember? And

literally, he goes, "I don't know, like a post-it note." It it was it was so simple. I my heart chasing it felt so

simple. I my heart chasing it felt so deep cuz of the process.

>> And I was like, "Oh, like what would the post-it note say?" And he's like, "I don't know, towel."

>> It's like, "Okay." And then this is an interesting moment. He goes, "Could you

interesting moment. He goes, "Could you write it for me?" I was like, "No, I'm not." And kind of again, I'm not going

not." And kind of again, I'm not going to do it cuz I I know that's something you could do for yourself. And I think it will be more meaningful if you do.

And in our family, you know, we take care of our things. And this is one small thing I ask. And so, you know what? We're together. You have Post-it

what? We're together. You have Post-it notes right where you work. It would be great if that's something you could do now. Or if you want to do your own

now. Or if you want to do your own schedule, maybe some point before tomorrow. And then I do the thing where

tomorrow. And then I do the thing where I think this really matters. I walk

away.

>> Nobody likes to listen or do something someone asks when you're like breathing over their throat.

>> Right. So, there's like an element of trust. And truly the next day I I saw a

trust. And truly the next day I I saw a note.

>> And and and I would say after that it was like a maybe a 50% hit rate with a towel. 50 was better than zero.

towel. 50 was better than zero.

>> I learned so much in this process. I use

it with so many other things for my kids. Like oh you always forget to take

kids. Like oh you always forget to take your water bottle. Okay. Like I can get frustrated about that or I could help them build some new skill because again what's going to transfer is when my kids are in college there's going to be

something that happens. Oh, I keep forgetting to study for my test on time or I'm late to class. Either they'll

hear my voice saying, "What's wrong with you? This isn't that hard." Or they'll

you? This isn't that hard." Or they'll hear, "Hold on a second.

>> I'm a good person. What's going on? What

would I need to do to be better able to do this thing I want to accomplish?"

That's the process you're really modeling. That process into adulthood,

modeling. That process into adulthood, as we know, that's a winning process.

>> Yeah. It's going to pay off big, >> even if it takes time.

>> That's right. And you know what I don't want when my kids in college? Like I

always say there's certain jobs I always want. My kids going through a hard time,

want. My kids going through a hard time, something tricky, always happy for them to call me. Like water bottle rememberer, alarm clock setter. I don't

need my kid in college to be calling me that they forgot their water bottle or that they, you know, don't know how to pick up their towel or that they forgot to set their alarm clock. So if I'm not helping them scaffold those skills,

>> I shouldn't be surprised. I don't know when they kind of still lean on me for them.

>> Yeah. At that later age. Yeah. No, it's

it's such a I wonder whether it's I felt like my parents felt very comfortable getting us to do chores early on though in our life. And so I remember ironing my shirts for school since I was

probably like 13 maybe.

>> And then my my sister and I had a routine after dinner where we'd either one of us would wash the dishes or clean the table and the other would clean the table and wash the dishes. And I felt like those were healthy routines that we just knew that were locked in. We hated

doing them. I never liked doing it.

Ironing I got some pride in. And I'm

still like a very proud we used to iron not steam and now I've learned how to steam since moving to this country. But

this idea of I didn't like washing up the dishes or cleaning the table. It was

just part of our routine.

>> Yes.

>> What is the value of discipline even when you hate it and what early chores are healthy and useful?

>> I I I think this is such an important conversation and and you actually said something that I often say. You beat me to the punch. First of all, there is just immense value to kids spending time

doing things that are unenjoyable.

>> I think especially now, and I'm not trying to say I'm always above this, but we've somehow moved to this world where we're always optimizing for each kid.

It's really interesting even like the weekends are split. Like I'm taking this kid here, this kid here. We do that sometimes, too. It's necessary. But

sometimes, too. It's necessary. But

almost unconsciously, we don't realize I'm like always optimizing for my kids pleasure. I remember the time that one

pleasure. I remember the time that one of my kids like, "What? I have to go to my sibling soccer. Like he's not even good at soccer, which was true. It

wasn't that good, right? And it was it was the moment where I was like, that's actually exactly why you're going to go.

Like the weekend is not about optimizing your personal pleasure at every second.

Like, it's good for you to go and be bored. It's good for you, even if you

bored. It's good for you, even if you could have a playd date, to sit and watch. That is such an important thing

watch. That is such an important thing to be a good human. M and it reminds me of the time that my kid is like folding clothes is boring. Why do we have to do this? And I found myself I I said this

this? And I found myself I I said this thing I just like you know what to be a good human you just have to do things that are boring and unenjoyable sometimes. I don't know but I think it's

sometimes. I don't know but I think it's true.

>> It's true. It's true. I don't have a better way of saying it. Just And my kid was like, "Oh, I kind of like it." It

struck him like, you know, no one had ever just said that. That's like So the fact that you had a childhood where there was this built-in routine of things that were mundane.

>> Yeah.

>> Largely unenjoyable. You can make them enjoyable. Put on the music, do things.

enjoyable. Put on the music, do things.

We try to do that in our house. But

actually, I think that's relieving for a parent. Oh, I don't have to make my kids

parent. Oh, I don't have to make my kids life amazing at every moment. Going back

to entitlement like what an individualist relatively entitled view of the world to go forward like I should spend 99% of my waking hours doing

things that I want to do and bring me pleasure. Now do I think you should

pleasure. Now do I think you should spend some amount of time? Yes, a lot.

But the idea that some of your childhood is doing things that are good for the family that are more about being there for your sister, right? I think that is

so important. But what it means is

so important. But what it means is tolerating distress and tolerating push back and tolerating whining. There's so

much whining. Now, the other reason though I think chores are really important. They're a way to feel

important. They're a way to feel impactful. It's one of the biggest

impactful. It's one of the biggest things we take for our kids is when they're only spending time doing the things they want to do, they're not really having an impact in the real

world. Like clearing your plate and

world. Like clearing your plate and learning how to wash it off and putting it in the dishwasher. how concrete that is and how visual all the plates were

there. Then they got clean

there. Then they got clean >> then they went to the dishwasher. Then

someone wiped them down. Like you are watching yourself have purpose and impact in the world. Your kids will not say thank you for that when they're younger. But I promise you that's

younger. But I promise you that's critical to their mental health. They

don't want to live in their own world where they're just spinning and thinking and optimizing. They actually do have a

and optimizing. They actually do have a need to feel like they're that's what it's feel like they're a part of something.

>> And I actually think chores again if done right so many times chores are almost given as punishment.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Not it. I think it's a really important structure for that.

>> Yeah. And I love the way you broke down that process like seeing yourself do something from start to finish and complete something and have to do it as a routine. That is so much of adult life

a routine. That is so much of adult life >> and it's it's hard. It was one of the mistakes I made with so I started working when I was like 14. I used to deliver newspapers. Then I worked at a

deliver newspapers. Then I worked at a grocery store and so I've been working for a long time and I have a younger sister who's four and a half years younger than me and I never wanted her to work cuz I just wanted her to be protected. Yeah.

protected. Yeah.

>> In the in my naivity of being a teenager myself at the time.

>> Out of love.

>> Out of love.

>> But we talk about it all the time now where like I started working since I was 14. So work is very normal to me. I get

14. So work is very normal to me. I get

it. I know what it takes. It's a part of my life. I've always had to pay my way.

my life. I've always had to pay my way.

And for my sister, it's like she didn't start working until she graduated. And

she likes to get away from work as much as she can because she didn't have that routine and rhythm from that early age.

And there was so much growth at that time that you made socially by having a job and being around people of different backgrounds at different ages. My boss

was 50 and there was a 60-year-old person at the checkout and a 20-year-old person and just generational, >> you know, experience and exposure and so much I gained from working in a grocery store that I could never have learned at

home.

>> And I think about that word capability.

>> I bet you built a ton.

>> Absolutely.

>> I'm I'm a person who can do hard things.

I'm a person who can go into a situation that's totally new.

>> Yeah. nuanced, has ups and downs, and no matter what I finish the day, just the best it often is is I knowing I can get through it.

>> That's so important. It's the other thing that it's kind of different than chores, but having our kids do real things in the real world, >> right? I think it's something that we

>> right? I think it's something that we need to put a lot more attention to, right? I I know John height talks about

right? I I know John height talks about this a lot, right? We kind of overprotect kids online and or we underprotect kids online and overprotect them in the real world. and he and I talk about this a lot. I think I've

watched my kids, right? We live in Manhattan, right? And so mobility for

Manhattan, right? And so mobility for kids is maybe a little easier. They

don't need a ride somewhere. But when I see, you know, my kid who can go get bagels for the family on their own, right? Take public transportation on

right? Take public transportation on their own, the pride and capability they feel. I I promise you, I mean, I think

feel. I I promise you, I mean, I think academics and school and all those things in sports are really important, don't get me wrong. I I just I don't I literally don't see this like visceral feeling in any other place than when

they're in the real world feeling like a capable person who's operating like everyone else. And so I think that and

everyone else. And so I think that and everyone can ease into that in their own way, right? It might be you go to the

way, right? It might be you go to the doctor with your kid and you let them check in. It might be you let them tell

check in. It might be you let them tell their pediatrician, hey, how's she doing this year? Let her answer first. Right?

this year? Let her answer first. Right?

It's emailing the coach instead of you doing it. It's maybe you don't live in a

doing it. It's maybe you don't live in a city where a kid can walk to the grocery store, but maybe you hang back and let them check out. I mean, there's so many situations, but that communication of trust and capability, if you reflect

that to your kid and then they start to experiment with that, it's so critical.

>> Yeah. I think a lot of pressure that parents are feeling right now about that overp protection is also feeling that they have to be available and monitoring

and be around and entertain all the time. And it goes back to your this

time. And it goes back to your this point that you've spoken about the whole time. This dichotomy of we didn't get a

time. This dichotomy of we didn't get a lot of time from our parents growing up for a lot of people. Parents weren't

around because they had to pay the bills and take care of stuff. And now it's the opposite where parents feel like, well, I have to work from home. I have to be completely flexible. I have to be there

completely flexible. I have to be there all the time. And I feel like that's a lot of pressure for two reasons. One is

you now feel like every waking moment has to be spent entertaining a kid, which is exhausting. But we all feel the pressure society and culturally of if you don't your kids can have trauma. And

then the other side of it is we talk about what it means to be a good parent because it makes us feel good about ourselves but not about what kids actually need.

>> So if I think about the difference between what makes me feel like a good husband versus what does my wife actually need? Like what makes me feel

actually need? Like what makes me feel like a good husband is a a long list of things that my wife would pick apart and be like, "Yeah, but I don't need any of that stuff." And and I feel like kids

that stuff." And and I feel like kids might do the same.

>> I think that's really smart. I haven't

thought about it that way, but yeah, I think we should dive into that. I mean,

I think we have an idea. What makes me feel good is if yes, I'm always available. I'm always watching. I'm

available. I'm always watching. I'm

always make sure they don't slip off the ladder of the playground, right? What

does my kid feel? Nobody trusts me. I

don't have any space. I don't even know anymore what's me and what's my parent.

Like, it's like we live in this inshed world. Now, I don't think a kid could

world. Now, I don't think a kid could ever articulate, right? Again, we're not going to hear from our 8-year-old. I'd

love a little more space. It's just not going to happen, right?

>> Yeah. Until they're teenagers.

>> But they might they might say it in other ways, right? And I really don't think it's just me. I think Good Inside really is this movement. It's ignited

something in people. I think there's like a lot of us who are like I yeah this whole always being there always fixing right um always witnessing

this kind of way we've confused emotional safety with emotional comfort those are very different things um I think there's I think there's like a new

wave right I mean I think one of the reasons why we're so resentful we're so reactive we can be so rageful on our phones all the time around our kids is

because We rarely have time without our kids, right? And and it's actually

kids, right? And and it's actually important for everyone. And again,

people hear that and they go to these awful extreme places. So, you're just going to slam your door and tell your kids you can't hang out with them. No,

nobody said that. I'm definitely not saying that. That would not be a good

saying that. That would not be a good way to operationalize this concept. But

helping your kids learn how to play independently. If you live in a

independently. If you live in a neighborhood with other kids, helping them figure out that they can play on that neighbor's lawn and you don't have to be there. Maybe you're nervous, but maybe you we have to fake it till you make it. You're like, "Yeah, I totally

make it. You're like, "Yeah, I totally trust you." And then you turn, you're

trust you." And then you turn, you're like texting your friend like, "Oh my goodness, help me through this." Okay, I have one window up top that actually is black and from the outside, so they can't see I'm watching them. But then

maybe after a week, you're not doing that, right? Or for me too, letting our

that, right? Or for me too, letting our kids go to the grocery store without them, it is a leap of faith. And we all have different levels of anxiety to manage. But I think that's right. Kids

manage. But I think that's right. Kids

need space. Of course, kids need attention. They like to be witnessed.

attention. They like to be witnessed.

But I mean, imagine your wife >> following you around at every moment beyond probably on some level feeling annoying. There's a message like I

annoying. There's a message like I actually don't trust you.

>> And I also don't trust our relationship enough to feel like we could have that be strong if you are also your own person. And I think Yeah, I think we

person. And I think Yeah, I think we really need to redefine parenthood along those lines.

>> Yeah. No, I'm glad. Yeah. No, I was just thinking about I was just like when you think about any other space, it's almost like if I from any job, if I serve

burgers at McDonald's, my worth is not calculated by if I feel good doing that.

It's calculated by what the customer needs and wants. So if the customer orders a cheeseburger and I serve them a Coke and fries because that makes me feel better. That's not accurate. It's

feel better. That's not accurate. It's

about And so I'm not saying we have to do what our kids want.

>> Totally. It's probably a bad example actually. I take that back. But but

actually. I take that back. But but

there's a sense of like am I aware of what children actually need?

>> Need I think >> what do children actually need is a that's a bad metaphor but yeah it's it's like what do children actually need versus what makes me feel good in the moment.

>> I think that's right. And look there's this dance the dance between independence and dependence. It it's

constant right? Independence grows from the safety of dependence. It's true for us too. I'm sure in part you feel like

us too. I'm sure in part you feel like you can try all these new things and you know be honest and vulnerable in part maybe because you feel like at the end of the day I have my wife I can come

home to like I have a secure base which means I can go explore >> that's really important so yes the time we spend with our kids the way we connect with them

>> but the truth is >> after those stages of intense kind of connection or dependence the way kids actually grow is from the safety of

dependence. They do things that are new.

dependence. They do things that are new.

>> It's when so many parents say like, "I feel so guilty. I'm going on a trip away from my kid and my kid's upset, right?"

And I often ask, "Well, who are they staying with?" I don't know. They're

staying with?" I don't know. They're

staying with grandma. It's someone who they're like or they're staying with their partner. It's someone who they're

their partner. It's someone who they're perfectly safe with. And like, is this is this so bad for them? And I always say the same thing. I mean it.

>> Not not only do I think it's good for them, I think your kid is going to consolidate all of the skills you've been working on them with.

>> Right. It's kind of like if you're a basketball player and you have a coach and they're watching and they're watching and they're working on this thing. You need time in the gym without

thing. You need time in the gym without that coach to then kind of go do the thing and then you know what? You're

going to get back with a coach and work on the next thing. But I just want parents to hear that. Yes, be there.

that connection, that validation, and then the periods where either you're traveling or you're not there. That is

actually probably the time your kid can bring it all together and not only consolidate skills, that's when you know it's yours. If I'm only,

it's yours. If I'm only, >> I don't know, able to do a good presentation when my boss is in the room. A part of me always wonders like,

room. A part of me always wonders like, is it my >> Yeah. Wow, that's great point.

>> Yeah. Wow, that's great point.

>> Right. My boss is sick and I go to my boss, I crushed it. I feel like it's me now. I'm like, that was me. So, yeah, we

now. I'm like, that was me. So, yeah, we really want to give our kids that opportunity.

>> That's such a great point. I love that.

I was >> better than a McDonald's.

>> Definitely better than my >> We were trying to get there together.

>> I was trying to get there. I was like, no, that's not working. Backtrack before

you >> It's the thing with metaphors. You never

know. I'm like, actually, it's not >> Yeah. I was like, I've never said that

>> Yeah. I was like, I've never said that before, so let's backtrack. Uh, but no, there's that resonated strongly. I was

my tour manager is from London. He was

traveling with me. We just finished a North American Canada tour. We did like 15 cities and he he's toured with me twice. We did a world tour two years

twice. We did a world tour two years ago. So he comes from London. He has two

ago. So he comes from London. He has two little boys. And he was saying that the

little boys. And he was saying that the last time he left he was he only had one. But he was telling his kid that he

one. But he was telling his kid that he was like, "Oh, I'm really sorry I have to go away." And this time he said he was changing it where he's like, "I'm really excited to go away. I'm going to miss you. Uh but I'm really excited. I'm

miss you. Uh but I'm really excited. I'm

doing this show and we're going live and we're doing this thing." and and he was saying how he wanted his kid to a feel excited for him rather than feel like oh dad hates going to work and he's sorry

and he's feeling bad about it and at the same time like feeling like his kid had space to grow and and feel that confidence and yes of course his kid facetimed every day I missed him and whatever it was but there was that sense

that he was like no I want him to feel positive about the fact that I'm going away I don't want him to feel like I'm nervous that I'm going away and I'm going to be away from him and now he's taking on that anxiety as well that

dad's scared that he's leaving me behind without him with mom who obviously, you know like >> right is there too.

>> He's the main carer and loves me and you know is always around there for me. And

so it's he was like, "No, I want him to leave feeling good."

>> And I think really sturdy leaders do that. Like my language for that is two

that. Like my language for that is two things are true.

>> So going back to boundaries and validation, two things are true. I can

set a boundary. You can be upset. Two

things are true. I'm excited about going on tour with Jay and I'm going to miss you. Or two things are true. I'm excited

you. Or two things are true. I'm excited

for this next step and I get that you wish I was staying home. Like I actually think that phrase two things are true, it trains our mind to then say the things and then the thing that's a small

shift but makes a huge difference >> is kind of upgrading the butt to an and >> I'm excited but I'm going to miss you.

>> I'm excited and I'm going to miss you.

Right? Like and look, I think in the world we see this like collapse of our ability to hold two things as true. It's

in in every small and big way, which again is why I think I think about good inside is is really so important. I

think the one of the most powerful ways we can change the world is how we raise the next generation of kids who will become adults. And to me, that idea of

become adults. And to me, that idea of holding oppositional truths at once, and maybe this relates to what people say as mom guilt, two things are true. I'm

going to dinner with my friends tonight.

So, person X, your dad, my mom, whoever it is, is going to put you to bed. Two

things are true. I'm excited to see my friends. And I understand you're going

friends. And I understand you're going to be upset. Like, I don't have to fix the upset. I don't have to change my

the upset. I don't have to change my plans. I don't need to get my

plans. I don't need to get my 5-year-old, but don't you understand?

It's really good for me to go out with my friends. I'm a better mom. What's

my friends. I'm a better mom. What's

happening there? No, they can just both be true. when when we become better able

be true. when when we become better able to like verbalize that, we actually teach our kids to be able to tolerate those two things at once as well.

>> I'm so glad you raised that. It's it's

probably the thing I've been focused on the most right now because I love that what F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote, which

what F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote, which was the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time.

>> Y >> and not and retain the ability to function.

>> That's y >> and and it's just so well said. And then

he goes on to say that one should therefore be able to see that things are hard but that I have the possibility to change them.

>> Right. And yeah, sorry. Sorry. And yeah,

>> that that's exactly it.

>> So real and I'm so glad that you've taken it from parenting into parenting.

>> Yes.

>> Because that is the ability that none of us have today in in any capacity.

>> And I think this is the stuff it drives us parents crazy. So just to model how you can go from these singular truths to these this duality. Like I love the heck

out of my kids >> and many days I miss so many of the moments before I had kids. I am so grateful for my kids and I feel exhausted. And I think what's important

exhausted. And I think what's important is one doesn't have to be more true than the other.

>> They can just both be there. They're

like two boxes sitting on a shelf. And

it's it's powerful to start to watch your mind try to collapse them, right?

Oh, good parents don't feel that way.

Wait, this might just be a two things are true situation. Maybe I'm allowed to love being a mother and miss my life before I'm a mother. And maybe there's no resolution. Maybe I just going back

no resolution. Maybe I just going back to the bench. Maybe I just have to like sit with that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I'm thinking back to all the times I did that to my parents cuz we forget.

>> Yeah.

>> Like we forget that we did the same things. Like I find it really funny when

things. Like I find it really funny when I was speaking to a friend or someone and they're like, "Yeah, you know, my teenagers just doesn't get me right now." I'm like, "Did you get your

now." I'm like, "Did you get your parents when you were a teenager?" Like

I'm like I was the worst. And you know and and I think about even being a kid and I remember my mom had to go out to work in the evening so she couldn't put me to bed a lot of the time.

>> And I remember crying until she left like I'd hold on to her foot until she walked to the door and she'd walk out to go to work and then dad would put me to bed and and and I still remember it. And

it's just >> it's so interesting that we forget that we did all of those things because it feels like such a long time ago. But the

reality is that children haven't changed that much.

>> Yeah.

>> They just have different ways. They

might have an iPad instead of a >> PlayStation versus the TV or whatever it may have been. And it it's just when you remember that, you can actually empathize with it better and realize

your parents also had to do things that wasn't the reason you end up feeling neglected. Like that wasn't it. Like I I

neglected. Like that wasn't it. Like I I don't think I I don't look back at that memory with my mom and go I felt neglected when she left for work because >> she explained it to me. I knew where she was going. I knew I was with dad. Like

was going. I knew I was with dad. Like

it was it's and of course there are people who have very opposite experiences where they there could have been neglect and trauma. And I think that's that's what I wanted to ask you about is if someone's listening going,

look, I love my parents. They weren't

perfect, but I I love them and or maybe they actually caused me a lot of pain, but you know, it is what it is. How do I not be like them?

>> Yeah.

>> Uh because that's what I'm most scared of because yeah, I am probably carrying some trauma and maybe I feel positively to them, but maybe there's one of them that I never want to talk to again. And

I but I'm scared of becoming them.

>> And I totally understand that fear. And

and what I'd say to that person first is like I hope you give yourself a lot of credit for even just naming that and letting yourself see that there are things in my parents I love and I

appreciate and there are things I want to do really differently. I'm so scared of repeating that pattern. That that I would just say that's kind of amazing and brave to even just name that. That's

step one. Step two, I would actually just want to learn more. Tell me more.

What what don't you want to be like?

Well, I would have never talked to my parent when I was in a tricky situation.

I felt like my parents were just controlling, judgmental, like I don't want to get more specific, right? Okay.

So, what I think is helpful to know again is parenting is like a language, right? And

if you were brought up in English, right, and you want to speak a little English, but also Mandarin, your first instinct with your kid, even as you're learning Mandarin, is going to

be English. It just especially in

be English. It just especially in stressful moments. and and that's okay.

stressful moments. and and that's okay.

That doesn't mean you're failing. It

just means probably you got to go back to those Mandarin lessons and you go repair and you keep going. So, I just also want people to know that's that's what change looks like. No one goes and does a complete 180.

>> But people underestimate if you think about your family lineage like a ship and it's going toward a certain destination. You're like, I don't want

destination. You're like, I don't want to go there. Even a small shift in the ocean leads to a dramatically different destination. Right? And that's what

destination. Right? And that's what cycle breaking is. And then I think we work on one thing at a time. Okay, let's

say it's I really want my kid to be the kind of kid who can come to me. Stakes

are even higher now. There's stuff on TikTok. It's sex, drugs. I want my kid

TikTok. It's sex, drugs. I want my kid to come to me. I would have never with my parent still haunts me. Things that

happened because I didn't or they yelled at me. Great. I'd be like, "Okay, how

at me. Great. I'd be like, "Okay, how old is your kid now?" Five. Okay, let's

start building that because I think that's a topic that comes up a lot. The

idea that whether or not our teen comes to us in tricky moments is something that like magically starts in the teenage years as if there's no history to it, >> right? So, let's think about how you

>> right? So, let's think about how you respond when your kid hits. Let's think

about what happens. You just got a email from school that your kid stole a truck from his friend's cubby. These things

seem very small compared to sex and drugs and rock and roll, but in a way, they're the same circuit. M

>> I did something I know you're not going to approve of. Frankly, I did something even I feel shameful about.

>> Mhm.

>> How do we deal with that in this family now? What do I think that parents first

now? What do I think that parents first instinct is going to be?

>> What do you think?

>> Yeah. Like, oh my god, I can't believe you stole the truck. What's wrong with you? Like,

you? Like, >> exact. What's wrong with you? Go to your

>> exact. What's wrong with you? Go to your room. By the way, when you go to your

room. By the way, when you go to your room, I took away all your trucks. Like,

I don't know. By the way, I guess it's just what we we like just come up with this stuff because it's been so many generations. Even though it's laughable,

generations. Even though it's laughable, like why would that help my kid, but we all have that instinct. I do, too. But

if you know you're going to have that instinct, you're more prepared. And you

might, and this is where I would tell parents, like if you thought of it like a new language, you would never expect yourself to learn Mandarin >> just because you wanted to learn Mandrin.

>> You you like, frankly, I don't know, you'd probably just download Dualingo. I

don't know. and you be like, I'm going to practice as many days as I can. If I

miss my streak, it's okay. I'm going to get back on. And that that's what I feel like good insight is. It is a new language. So, what does that mean?

language. So, what does that mean?

First, you have to learn how to regulate your own emotions. You're probably

telling yourself the story, my kid's stealing trucks at age four. They're

going to be in jail by age 19. I have a sociopath. That is what you do as a

sociopath. That is what you do as a parent. The number of times you start

parent. The number of times you start thinking your kid's a sociopath when really they're just a good kid having a hard time is way too many to count. But

let's do that. So, what do I say to myself? What is the mantra? Where do I

myself? What is the mantra? Where do I go? Do I have a support group? Do I have

go? Do I have a support group? Do I have a friend to text? Do I have a little chatbot that helps me these day and age, right? That's what we have, right? Too.

right? That's what we have, right? Too.

Okay, there's that. Then I'm going to remember we're on the same team. Then

I'm going to remember a little of that sick joy, which is true there, too. Hold

on a second. If I know my kid sees things that they want and doesn't yet have the impulse control to not take them, if I can help my kid with that at

age four, do you know how much better that is than learning at age >> absolutely >> 14 or 44? Like then then things get bad.

>> We all have an urge to take things that we want, >> right? So you can actually Okay, this is

>> right? So you can actually Okay, this is a good thing. Same team and then there's maybe I'm going to get curious. Yeah,

that would have been nice if my parents were curious. Okay, then and this is

were curious. Okay, then and this is just a rule I have for any relationship.

Don't ask anybody a question you know the answer to.

>> It's not a question. It's an accusation with a question mark. Did you take anything >> from the cubby today? You're just

setting yourself up to be an adversary.

Say the truth. I heard what happened.

This is a good line, right? You're a

good kid. You made a bad decision.

That's okay. You're not in trouble. My

job is to help understand and help you through it. This actually happened with

through it. This actually happened with my kid, okay? One of my kids, you know, he saw something he wanted. And you know what? A lot of us when we see things we

what? A lot of us when we see things we want, we wish it was ours. And and so we talked about it, we did this, and then we did a lot of other things. I really

do take coaching, I think, to the next level. Like if you're and I always go

level. Like if you're and I always go back to sports cuz I'm a sports person too. But if you are a basketball coach,

too. But if you are a basketball coach, you can sit down some kids and teach them how to make a layup, but we all know you then actually have to get in the gym and like do it. You can't just

mentally learn it. The body movements matter. So one of the things I did with

matter. So one of the things I did with my son in this example is I was like after not all in the same day, we're going to play a game. I'm gonna have a truck and I'm going to put it somewhere

and I'm going to walk away and I want you to see it. And let's practice this.

You're going to say to yourself, I really want that. And then we're going to practice the thing we just talked about.

This stinks, but it's not mine. Some

like mini mantra. Literally a tool. And

I'm going to actually practice that. And

then I'll Some kids are resistant, so I'll reverse it. Okay, I'll be you.

Okay. Oh, I want that truck. Maybe if I take it, nobody will notice. Then it'll

be mine and then it'll just be my little truck and it's all going to be okay.

Wait Becky I want it. This stinks, but I can deal with it. It's actually amazing when you

with it. It's actually amazing when you give kids little mantras, little alternative behaviors. And I know it

alternative behaviors. And I know it sounds I hear a pound's voice. I do

being like that takes a lot of time.

>> Yeah, >> I hear that. But in life, I think we either spend time preparing or reacting.

>> Oh, yeah. And however you spend time naturally, you just don't account for it as time. You know how much time it takes

as time. You know how much time it takes to be mad at your kid all day? How much

time it takes when you stay up at bed feeling so kind of ashamed of how the day went. How much time those things

day went. How much time those things take time, too. I promise you these little interventions can take 45 seconds. Again, my son, we're not having

seconds. Again, my son, we're not having some in-depth conversation. It's just a thing and we move on.

>> And then they ask you, "Can I have a snack?" Like,

snack?" Like, >> and then they literally always end with, "Can I have pretzels now?" And you're like, "I guess they're saturated." But

regulate your own emotions. Remember,

you're on the same team. It's good news when you see bad behavior when they're young because they're always younger than they are tomorrow. And if you see it again as a feeling and urge gap with

the skills, the answer becomes I can be a coach, teach skills, practice skills here and there. And then often what's amazing is not only does behavior change, it doesn't change from fear. Cuz

when behavior changes from fear, I'm just so scared of my parent. That then

leads to becoming a teen.

You know, when you're a teen, you don't care about the timeouts. You don't care about your kids. You don't care about your parents stickers. You're just not really having a relationship with them and you're hiding things from them.

>> Yeah. Well said. Uh Becky, you were very clear that there's no such thing as a perfect parent, but you are a perfect coach. And your advice and insight is

coach. And your advice and insight is this has been by far my favorite conversation on parenting. And I've had such a great time learning from you today. I've feel like I've had

today. I've feel like I've had mind-blowing moments. I've had

mind-blowing moments. I've had affirmations on things that I already believed were true. I've had

clarifications. I've had extensions of things that I thought I understood, but you've expanded my mind. And I think everyone at home who's listening and watching or on the road would feel the same way. And so I hope everyone who's

same way. And so I hope everyone who's listening or watching, I hope you go and check out the app Good Insight. Check

out the platform. Go and grab a copy of the book. Follow Becky online if you

the book. Follow Becky online if you don't already. Her Instagram and social

don't already. Her Instagram and social media is full of great insights that are really simply and succinctly put for you to start making real change. And at the same time, I really hope that you'll tag

both of us and share the insights and the thoughts that have resonated with you today that you're putting into action that you're trying out. And

whether you got the reaction you wanted or not, the win that you had of actually communicating effectively, of following some of these scripts and making them your own and putting them into your own

language and words with your kids, uh, I really hope this helps you build the child and the life and the relationship that you're looking for with them. And

Becky, I'm just so grateful to you for having your time and energy to do this with me. Thank you. And I had such a

with me. Thank you. And I had such a great time. Truly,

great time. Truly, >> I had such a great time, too. I hope you know, it's not too long till I see you again.

>> Yeah, you have to come back. I have so much more I need to talk to you about.

We just spoke for 2 hours, was it?

>> And I and I could literally talk to you for another 2 hours, but I've been mindful of time, but I would love for you to come back uh because I feel like there's so much more for us to uncover.

>> I am all in.

>> I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. If

you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabbor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on

from the past. Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.