Ed Up Insights Hosted by Chuck Ambrose ft. Jamie Merisotis

Welcome to this episode of Edup Insights. uh not only where innovators

Insights. uh not only where innovators and thought leaders meet but as we have today's conversation in my journey uh there's not been a

thought leader who has set the the north star provided us with some audacious goals uh to think differently about outcomes uh than my good friend Jamie

Marisotus from the Lumina Foundation and um as you know uh Edup Insights is available on all streaming platforms It's also available on YouTube.

Subscribe, share, and like, but more importantly, engage. Uh let us know what

importantly, engage. Uh let us know what you'd like to learn, uh who you'd like to hear from. Uh and just know that the future of higher education really starts

now. Uh and it's what we make of it. So

now. Uh and it's what we make of it. So

Jamie, thanks uh so much for taking the time uh and having a conversation today uh thinking about the future.

>> Yeah, thank you, Chuck. And um as always um it's a great pleasure to be with one of the great problem solvers in American higher education. We've we've been known

higher education. We've we've been known each other for close to 20 years now working together on a variety of things and um you've always been someone who's looked at uh institutions of higher

education and said how can we make them better? Um, and I think uh that is a

better? Um, and I think uh that is a theme of my uh my career in a lot of ways, which is how does a higher ed system serve more people better? Um,

that that really is the the animating focus of a lot of what I've tried to accomplish in my career. I really

believe in higher education. I really

believe that it transforms individual lives and therefore transforms society in general. But our institutions, the

in general. But our institutions, the providers of of of higher education need to be the platforms that make that happen. And working with leaders like

happen. And working with leaders like you is has always been great because that's your orientation to the work. So,

thank you.

>> Well, you you're always an encourager.

And if truth be told to our listeners um as an old college president uh in that over 20 years I knocked on your door quite a few times uh understanding

uh that Lumina not only had a big goal but big aspirations for all of us and at the same time uh always sought right to engage you in and how to make our campus better and and you were always willing

to do that. You know, Jamie, a good place to start. You mentioned kind of your career and your ongoing commitments. Um, but your journey,

commitments. Um, but your journey, right? What what lit the spark. Uh, what

right? What what lit the spark. Uh, what

about your educational experience? Uh,

your family. Uh, you know, when you think about leading the Luminina Foundation, which has literally been a a northstar for the enterprise, how'd you

get here? Right.

get here? Right.

>> Yeah. a uh you know it's a common story in in America. It's it's a it's an American story which is I come from an immigrant family. Uh my my parents uh

immigrant family. Uh my my parents uh are were Greek. Uh and you know they um neither of them went to college. Um my

dad was a high school dropout, a P in World War II. Uh my mother uh did graduate from high school and uh they you know they both worked much much of

their adult lives but they uh they never made it to the middle class. Uh we never made it to the middle class but my parents really believed in the power of education and I and my three brothers um

all were given uh the opportunity to go to college. Our parents worked hard but

to college. Our parents worked hard but we were fortunate because their value system was that they knew education was going to make a difference in our lives.

And we were not a not not a family with means. And so we all received financial

means. And so we all received financial aid. We all got lots of support. We also

aid. We all got lots of support. We also

all had challenges because there was no one before us uh to help pave the way to help you know point the direction and what you need to do. I ended up at Bates

College in Maine is I grew up in Hartford, Connecticut, but went to college in Maine and was very fortunate.

It's a abolitionist institution, an institution that's long believed in um access and opportunity uh particularly for for low-income and first generation

populations. And um uh Bates, you know,

populations. And um uh Bates, you know, transformed my life. I like to say to people that college ended poverty in the Marotas family forever. And I believe

that. And I believe that my my

that. And I believe that my my commitment to this work really started from my own experience. Professionally,

I actually uh was looking for a job in public policy when I graduated from college in the in the mid 80s and um ended up working in education policy because that's the job I found. I I was

a policy researcher for the college board and in their Washington office and ended up parlaying that into a series of

very fortunate opportunities early in my career. Um at the age of 27 I was the

career. Um at the age of 27 I was the executive director of a bipartisan federal commission on post-secondary education that was created by in law by

uh congress and it was um designed to rethink the federal role in financing of higher education. So, some of your

higher education. So, some of your listeners may remember uh the direct student loan program had its origins in the work of that commission in the early 1990s.

And uh we also advanced many of the ideas that uh became policy under President Clinton, President Bush, and uh through President Obama on tax policy

and a variety of other things. I ended

up um with Colleen O'Brien co-founding the Institute for High Education Policy and um

uh which is now um nearly 30 years old.

Um and that organization was a re is a research organization that's focused on uh improving access and and opportunity

in higher education. and I did that for 15 years uh before uh the opportunity of Lumina Foundation came along in 2008. So

that's that's been my journey. But I've

always believed in that idea that uh higher education needs to serve more people better. And um my my focus has

people better. And um my my focus has been primarily on improving access and student success in higher education.

>> That hope for college, you just hope for everyone, right? The same that it it

everyone, right? The same that it it provided to you. It's amazing. uh and

and we may end up uh with with uh a few thoughts about kind of the hidden jobs that first opportunities out of college provides. I mean, as you look back, you

provides. I mean, as you look back, you would have never thought, right, that just a first job in public policy uh could have had the sequencing and kind of developmental effects that it's

provided to you, right?

>> Yeah. I was a I was a a student journalist. I I was the editor of the

journalist. I I was the editor of the student newspaper at Bates College. I

thought I was going to be a journalist.

I worked with a group of very very accomplished people at Bates College um at the Bates student. In fact, one of my colleagues there is now the managing

editor of the New York Times, Carolyn Ryan. Um I worked with Brian McGroy who

Ryan. Um I worked with Brian McGroy who was the editor-in chief of the Boston Globe. So we were a very uh fortunate

Globe. So we were a very uh fortunate group of people working together in an extraordinary time and I thought I was going to get a job in journalism and I didn't. Um, I I had done an internship

didn't. Um, I I had done an internship at the Washington Monthly magazine, uh, where the current editor-inchief, Paul Glastrus, and I sat next to each other. So, I really thought I was going

other. So, I really thought I was going to be in in um in journalism, but I didn't find a job in journalism. I found

a job in public policy, and that's how I ended up on this path. So, yeah, it's a a series of fortunate events, as I said, that that led me down this path.

>> Yeah, public policy. And and Jamie, there's a a huge and not all of our listeners really know the genesis of the Luminina Foundation, that bipartisan commission,

the student loan programs, the the history of the organization you you lead. Put Luminina in context of

lead. Put Luminina in context of that timing and and framing and and how it became a >> probably the most significant philanthropy in higher ed.

>> Yeah, Lumina was created in 2000. It's

what's called a conversion foundation.

It was a result of a corporate merger, a a for-profit entity purchasing a notfor-profit entity. Uh and um so

notfor-profit entity. Uh and um so overnight it became one of the 50 largest uh foundations in the country.

And uh the foundation was the result of the purchase of the assets of USA Group by Sally May. Um and under these conversions, a portion of the proceeds

go into into an independent third party entity which is what Luminina Foundation became. So that the origins were really

became. So that the origins were really in the student loan industry. The irony

of course of me being now the second CEO, I was hired in 2008 is that I was one of the biggest critics of the student loan industry in the country at the time. Uh really saying that the

the time. Uh really saying that the system needed to uh be radically changed. That was one of the outcomes of

changed. That was one of the outcomes of the national national commission around u direct student loans etc. But uh the the origins of Lumina have always been in higher education. And one of the

things I'm very grateful for to the founding board is that they honored that by focusing the foundation on higher education and on improving access and student success. That's always been a

student success. That's always been a part of the mission. You know, I came along in 2008 and tried to steer the foundation towards a time limited quantitative goal, but that was built on

the foundation of the idea that Lumino's sort of long-term focus should be on on student access and success.

the first CEO. Who did you follow?

>> Um, so Martha Lanin was the was the first CEO. Uh, she was experienced in

first CEO. Uh, she was experienced in philanthropy, had had worked in philanthropy previously, had been at USA Group and, you know, was a was a terrific uh, predecessor for me, really

built the foundations of of of what Lumina is today. You know, it's it's uh I I guess uh not surprising that as a young college president, I knocked on the USA group before the conversion,

>> right?

>> U because there was philanthropy uh right >> involved with that and there's a network right Jamie of philanthropic organizations many are state based uh

other national like strata and others that have similar underpinnings.

>> Ascend Helios. Yeah, there's several. Aluminina

Helios. Yeah, there's several. Aluminina

was the largest of the of the deals that was ever done, but yeah, there's a lot of these entities came along. Now,

Trellis and others. So, there's a there's many really highquality organizations out there that have their origins there, >> you know, and um then roll forward to

2008. Um, and I've I've looked forward

2008. Um, and I've I've looked forward to this conversation. Uh I know you know this, but for all of us who were

campus-based leaders, uh having a big goal, an audacious goal, um provided framing for those of us who cared about

students and and their outcomes, um that's indelible, right? I mean, it's it's it's one of those points in time that people will look back in the history of of higher ed. Tell tell us

how it how did it start? Where where did it come from?

You know, if you think about higher education back in the in the early part of the of the millennium, there was a growing interest not only in expanding access to postsecary education because,

you know, again, the history of of higher education post World War II, right? We had the growth of the

right? We had the growth of the community college movement. Uh the

higher education act in 1965. Well,

preceding that was the national defense education act. The higher education act

education act. The higher education act of ' 65. The creation of what became PEL grants in the early '7s. Much of the sort of modern history of higher education up until the early 2000s was

about improving access, creating more opportunity. And while we made some

opportunity. And while we made some inroads on access, uh we never solved the access problem. But we recognized that access wasn't going to be enough, that we needed to focus on student

success. And Lumino was really the the

success. And Lumino was really the the the first to sort of capitalize on this idea that setting a time limited quantitative goal around attainment of

credentials, not just creating access to to higher education was going to be really important because the credentials, the degrees, the certificates, the certifications, that's

ultimately what has value both from a labor market perspective, but also in terms of, you know, what society values in terms of what learners know and can

do uh with their post-secary credentials. So I mentioned the idea of

credentials. So I mentioned the idea of of a goal when I interviewed for the job in 2007. I did not have the specific

in 2007. I did not have the specific goal in mind at the time. uh but uh by the u middle late uh 2008 uh we had started talking publicly about it and

then of course in 2009 President Obama came into office started talking about higher education and eventually sort of concluded a sort of similar idea around

attainment and we then spent much of the next several years trying to help states build their platforms for increasing attainment but the idea always was that

u access is important important, but it's not enough that we actually need to focus on the success of students as expressed by by credentials. And that's

that's the work that Lummit has been doing since 2008.

Um, many of your listeners probably know that in 2008, the attainment rate was about 38% nationally. As of 2023, it's

55%. So, it's one of the great social

55%. So, it's one of the great social policy successes of the last two decades. probably um uh under

decades. probably um uh under underappreciated in in some ways in terms of the the national narrative but something that obviously Lumina didn't make happen but Lumina was a part of

building that ecosystem and uh now we see that this idea of credentials and attainment is a very important part of the conversation though again the conversation is

shifting again now which is why we set a new 2040 goal at Lumino which is really focused on credentials and value so these things evolve uh you know access is still important. Attainment is still

important, but now we need to focus on on attainment of credentials of value.

And and to me, um that is a part of what higher education does or should do, which is continue to adapt and respond to what society needs.

>> And timing is everything, right? We'll

talk about that a little bit in terms of the future, but a a 2008 goal from Lumina becoming a an administration's

big goal for the country. U any

backstory, Jamie, about h how that just came together or was it just a an organic natural uh policy platform to leap from?

Yeah, it was it was um in at that time period it was part of lots and lots of internal conversations that had actually started before I got to Lumina and I

came and helped to crystallize those conversations express it as a goal 60% of Americans having a degree or other credential by 2025

that provided a sort of rallying point a northstar if you will around this idea of being very goal- driven at at the time candidly I did not realize that

that wasn't a common thing in philanthropy. I was coming from my

philanthropy. I was coming from my public policy career where thinking about goals was was sort of, you know,

more common. Um, think of in the in the

more common. Um, think of in the in the K12 context, the goals 2000 from the first President Bush, for example, around K12 um learning goals or so so

the goal orientation wasn't necessarily that novel of an idea. It turned out it was novel for higher ed and very novel for philanthropy. And the idea that that

for philanthropy. And the idea that that a philanthropic organization would help to sort of set the tone for what then became a broader um effort is something that we spent a lot of time thinking

about how how unusual that was and how fortunate we are that we were we were a part of that.

>> Yeah. And you know um along the way you were an encourager uh to me in the knowledge work space for for K12.

Um and uh certainly something that I learned within the the philanthropy space was that you know we evolve right we learn a lot from access being

equality right giving everybody the opportunity to now and and I I think Jamie I I would even say that uh the

restated uh next phase for the big goal uh gets me even more energized right as an educator because that equity driver is uh and and I think the foundation and

I'd love to hear you really take this further has focused uh in on the value uh of the credential. Um so in that you

know what you learned but now how does that frame what we must do right within this dynamic right society we're living

in uh both counter forces and prevailing winds right uh but um you know in that evolution this new goal

2040 right we talk about creating the the future uh give us the primary elements and and some of those next things for for Lumina.

>> Well, if you think about what's happened in this in this time period uh leading up to 2025, again, lots and lots of uh

successes were achieved in most states when it came to attainment. 49 states

set attainment goals. Most of them saw very dramatic increases in in that time period. So, it was great success. But

period. So, it was great success. But

starting around 2015 2016, what we started to see was more and more push back on the narrative, partly because of politics, but partly because technology

was starting to really change what higher education is and does. And so

there were different avenues for learning. And then of course

learning. And then of course demographics and the fact that demographic change was coming and we could see that demographic change. And

so this combination of demographics and technology and politics came together and we started to see more and more skepticism of higher education. More and

more questions about affordability, about the value of the credentials, confidence in higher education declined for almost a decade uh until last year

um in terms of the Americ's views of of higher education. So all of those things

higher education. So all of those things were sort of part of the context. Even

as attainment was increasing, even as we were achieving more success, we recognized that if we hadn't set a 2025 goal back in 2008, we probably would have had to reset it in 2025 anyway. You

know, it turned out to be fortunate timing. And you know what we concluded

timing. And you know what we concluded over nearly 3 years of conversations about this um internally and with lots and lots of external stakeholders, you included, is that what we wanted to

focus on, as you said, was this idea of increasing the percent of the labor force that has u uh degrees or other credentials of value. The value

conversation has been going on for a number of years. uh lots and lots of states like in Texas for example and and other places they've been talking about these questions of value. The Gates

Foundation did good work on value. But I

think what we tried to bring together in our new new goal which is that by 2040 75% of adults in the US labor force will have a college degree or or other

credential of value leading to economic prosperity. Well, we what we what's

prosperity. Well, we what we what's really embedded in in that goal, those 21 words, whatever it is, is that uh what we want to be is more aspirational

both for what the country needs and what people expect of the higher education system.

>> So the 75% threshold is really about the labor market needs uh what what uh what employers are saying they need and what skills are represented in degrees and

other credentials. So, you know, 72% of

other credentials. So, you know, 72% of jobs being created between now and 2030, according to the Georgetown Center on Education in the Workforce will require a post-secondary credential. Um, this

idea of of value, as you said, is probably the crux of it, which is that these credentials need to have value. uh

value being defined not only by wages.

And our conclusion was that the wage differential between a post-secary credential and a high school diploma has to be at least 15%.

Lots and lots of math behind that that we can talk about. And then this idea that the credentials of value have to lead to economic prosperity. Well,

that's the aspirational part, right?

which is that we want to make sure that at the end of the day if you have the credential of value that it makes a difference in your life uh not only for

you individually but for us collectively as a society. And this idea of prosperity is a sort of widely accepted generally

um positive term that Americans believe is something that we should all strive for. Um, people want opportunity, they

for. Um, people want opportunity, they want security, but long-term what they really want is prosperity. And this idea that prosperity is about not just

economic factors, but also things like your ability to be an effective participant in the community, your ability to to sort of lead your family successfully, to uh, you know, to

contribute in in lots of ways that are not economic uh, to the world. Those are

all part of the sort of aspirational part of this next 15-year goal.

>> You know, it's interesting, Jamie, and I always wanted to ask you this question.

Um, in that 2015 2016 period, uh, those of us who were engaged with you uh, and working hard could feel, you know, the

loss of confidence. Uh, do you ever feel like the the foundation was losing confidence in our ability to deliver?

We never lost uh confidence honestly. We

you know we we we believed that uh both the the goal itself was was right and and just for for what individuals in society need and we also had evidence

that lots and lots of the actors in the system believed that as well. You know

what? We learned a lot of things along the way, Chuck, in terms of how how to create change. And in the first four or

create change. And in the first four or five years of Lumina, we were wrong about something really important, which is that we thought that this goal was actually going to be something that you

could sort of put up on a billboard or, you know, in those days it was, you know, um, in the earlier days of of the internet, sort of get get the public to buy into in terms of a viral goal. But

what we realized, you know, as I said, four or five years later, is that that wasn't the point. What you really wanted to do was influence the influencers, which is policy makers, business leaders, community leaders, etc. They're

the ones that understand the real value of these credentials. What consumers

want is they want a degree or a certificate or a certification that leads to a better job that creates more uh career mobility that allows them to

be successful in in these broader ways.

And so we learned uh that that's what people want and what by focusing on the sort of change makers, you know, the the the people with influence, we never

really did lose that that that confidence even as we saw growing growing skepticism. And look, the

growing skepticism. And look, the skepticism that you and I are talking about here um is based in reality. Um

college has become very expensive for a larger and larger number of people.

questions about the quality and the value of these credentials should be raised. You should not spend all of that

raised. You should not spend all of that money to get a credential that doesn't lead to greater outcomes for you as an individual. And so, you know, I'm I'm

individual. And so, you know, I'm I'm certainly and you are as as as well as a very successful college president, you're someone that believes that higher

education can and should do better. Uh,

you know, we're we're reformers. We

believe in higher education, but we we believe in the aspirational opportunities that higher education can can provide. And in order to do that,

can provide. And in order to do that, it's got to do its job better.

>> Yeah. I mean, that takes me back to when our friendships first came together. Um,

and I say the same thing. College costs

too much, takes too long, skills gaps with degrees, right? Uh, debt burdens.

But now uh right and and I think with a 2040 goal and certainly um political cultural and I think you you you

mentioned it probably in the most uh descriptive manner you know you have some of the cultural issues but then a whole another level of technology interface

uh put this 2040 aspiration in regards to reinstilling Right. And maybe redefining

reinstilling Right. And maybe redefining what that prosperity factor should look like in 2040. Right? So is it still at

the state level? Is it still policy makers, influencers? Uh is there a

makers, influencers? Uh is there a movement behind that that we need to create to the masses? Or like you mentioned, Georgetown Center for Education and Work. Is it really the

only hope we have of kind of maintaining and restoring a middle class in America?

Right.

>> Yeah. there there's a an an awful lot going on and I like your word movement because I think the the original attainment movement the the 60% goal really was a movement there were lots of

actors that made that movement real you know all the all the groups that I mentioned with with you know close to a dozen philanthropic foundations as sort of drivers uh many of the places that we

were talking about earlier have been very uh key to that from from Gates and Ascendium and ECMC and lot lots and lots of of of other actors

have been very very important part of that. Um you know I think that uh the

that. Um you know I think that uh the the the 2040 world is hard to envision just as the 2025 world was hard to envision back in 2008.

But some sort of common sense uh assumptions that we have going into this. The first is that humans will

this. The first is that humans will continue to want to be productive, successful, uh, prosperous in terms of their lives and that in order to do that, they will

have to continue to improve themselves.

We believe higher education is an important part of that. Um, we know that technology is going to increasingly change human existence. We see clear

evidence of that now with the rise of AI. And you know that I I wrote a book

AI. And you know that I I wrote a book about this uh preceding uh chat GPT and and and the large language models called human work in the age of smart machines where I was trying to think through

these questions about what are the humans going to do in an increasingly technology mediated world. And that's

that's really where we are today. We are

we're thinking hard about those questions. Higher education is going to

questions. Higher education is going to have to be an important part of that.

What are humans good at? How are we different than the machines? And how do we focus on human machine complimentarity in a way that again gives people the opportunity to earn family sustaining

wages to get a good job to be successful in their community etc. And so all of those things I think will continue to be important in 2040. Um prosperity in my

view is um always going to be defined from the shared perspective. shared

well-being, shared prosperity is what's really important to me. And um that means that you know we'll have to be looking at you know what are the ways in

which we will be measuring prosperity going forward that um go beyond these questions of of income uh to these broader u broader impacts that that

higher education can have. That's the

bicycle that we're building as we're riding it. uh just as we you know when

riding it. uh just as we you know when we started in 2008 we were trying to figure out these questions about getting to 2025 with a goal that included not just

degrees but other post-secary credentials like certificates and certifications. We had no data systems

certifications. We had no data systems in 2008 to measure anything other than degrees. we hope to build those data

degrees. we hope to build those data systems. And the analog, I think, to 2040 is that we're gonna have to build the new sort of of um of data structures

and and aspirational goals, if you will, for for higher education based on those data structures that help articulate what prosperity looks like beyond just

money. Um, and that's an important part

money. Um, and that's an important part of we we don't have good data systems for that. We've got good data systems

for that. We've got good data systems now on wages. Uh but we don't have good data systems for things like you know uh measuring engagement in communities and

you know we we have you know subindicators micro indicators like voting patterns and things like that but broader indicators of of prosperity is something that we'll be working on at

Lumina with our with our partners. and

you've got a an identified group of states that you're going to drive some future facing some future ready state

initiatives. Is is all of that embedded

initiatives. Is is all of that embedded in in what you hope to uh as you said strap the wings on as we're flying it?

Uh >> yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean you look in

>> yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean you look in these in the early days so we announced this 2040 goal in March of 2025.

Um so um we are in the early stages of of of this work and uh the future ready states initiative that you're referencing is one of the down payments

if you will that we've made on the longer journey here where we're working with a group of a dozen states to help them better understand the quality of

non-deree credentials so that we can do a better job of ultimately steering people towards the best of those credentials that allow allows them to get on that l ladder of opportunity and

earn the family sustaining wages and and and grow from there. That's one part of it. We're doing some work now on

it. We're doing some work now on affordability in higher education.

Again, ramping up towards a sort of longer term set of questions around redesign of of the higher ed system, particularly from a financing perspective. We're doing some work, you

perspective. We're doing some work, you know, very very close to your uh to your heart around the business model of higher education and thinking about how we deliver higher education in a world

where the demand continues to be high but the system itself has difficulty meeting that that that demand. And so

lots and lots of what we're thinking about for the sort of longer term on the 2040 horizon is really more fundamental questions about redesign of the system

than maybe we did from 2008 to 2025.

We're going to continue to focus on access. Like I said earlier, we haven't

access. Like I said earlier, we haven't solved the access problem. We're going

to continue to focus on student success.

extremely important in this time period where you know making sure that students actually complete the credentials they start is terribly important uh because

the the loss of opportunity that comes from stopping out dropping out having debt etc those are things that that are well known but we really do need I think

more fundamental redesign of the system and that includes from the inside out the kind of work that that you've you've led as well as from the outside in in

terms of helping higher education learn from the best models from from other parts of society whether you know it it it you know we're trying to figure out sort of where our models might might

come from uh but you know we're looking at uh the way other industries have transformed themselves and that will be important part of the the learning journey >> yeah you know I think that's what gets

me um most excited Jamie because as you acknowledge kind of the 2008 uh to current restate ment you know you were readily saying hey that was a metric

driven goal uh you know we had the metrics that could measure that but ultimately right it's it's the linking right of outcomes I always think that we

lag a little bit behind healthc care and and using our data effectively to uh flip the model uh but this you know

valued credentialed model uh will have nothing but a positive effect on net performance, right? Because if we simply

performance, right? Because if we simply just kept the students we have got them across the finish line with that credential and or degree and made sure

as u the accountability movement still is is seeking to to find ways to measure that you're competitive in both life and work with it. Uh I think many of our

resource questions would be uh largely mitigated. Right.

mitigated. Right.

>> Right. Exactly. Exactly. And you know to sort of take us back to the beginning here of of the of the 2008 goal and and

using that 2008 goal of attainment being the driver and now it's attainment of credentials of value leading to economic prosperity. Look at the end of the day

prosperity. Look at the end of the day these credentials are extremely important um to not just to individuals but to society. And there's a there's an economist here in Indiana at Ball State

University, Michael Hicks, um, who's been writing about this over the course of the last couple of years, you know, a conservative state that has tried to improve its its its system, made some

good choices, made some choices that I think it's now rethinking. But he has this great quote uh that that he's used several times where he says educational attainment alone is now a more powerful

predictor of a region's economic success than everything else combined. And by

that he means that you know at the end of the day without a higher level of educational attainment these efforts to sort of nibbling on the margins of economic uh development nibbling on the

margins of you know even things like K12 reform which is foundational to postsecary attainment it's not enough.

uh when you get to the higher levels of postsecondary attainment that is what ultimately fundamentally transforms communities and states and therefore our country as a whole.

>> Yeah. You know Katherine Prince the futurist at knowledge works used to call it geographies of place right that right >> you know those communities of competitiveness will be centered around learning and so much of what you've done

Jamie in your writings and the foundation uh now looking to the future you know putting people at the center um you know how difficult's that going

to be in this AIdriven economy that people seem to be investing in in in crazy amounts Yeah, it's a it's a it's a double-edged

sword, right? Which is that on the one

sword, right? Which is that on the one hand, we are appropriately focusing on individuals because individual lives are what we're trying to transform in order

to have societal impact. Now, to your point, technology sort of has driven us apart in a lot of ways, ironically, as a society. You know, there's, you know,

society. You know, there's, you know, sort of strong ideological differences.

there's way there's ways in which technology have kept us away from actually becoming more connected to each other as humans etc. you know, lots of ways in which that's true. On the other

hand, I think that as a society, uh, we are also benefiting from the fact that we aren't focusing on the institutions of higher education or the

the deliverers. We're focused on the

the deliverers. We're focused on the people because at the end of the day, what higher education does is serve individuals. It does so by transmitting

individuals. It does so by transmitting knowledge and by developing new knowledge that helps individuals be more successful in their lives and us be more

successful. And in that sense, this more

successful. And in that sense, this more individualized focus might be a good thing. That's the optimist part of Jamie

thing. That's the optimist part of Jamie uh that you're hearing in in in this moment saying look if we can harness this and actually help those institutions transform themselves and

better focus on the needs of individuals the needs of community the needs of society well then we'll all benefit from that you know and I I told you you know our

conversation in this series is not meant to to focus in on everything that's wrong but the headwinds right just the the political the cultural um certainly we've not quite seen a federal

environment for higher ed like we're we're seeing it currently. Um some of it uh warranted some of it perhaps uh in

more the the how and not the why. Um but

in your your mind Jamie, how much of an opportunity does this provide those that are thinking forward to really not fix something but create something that

actually works for that people centered type of approach? Is is this a is this a moment for us to really seize and does it create the kinds of opportunities

that um again with your partners uh you see green shoots coming up, right? I

mean you can you can see the potential.

Is that is that how you're looking at this moment?

>> Yeah, I I I am and and I I do believe that um the we are on the cusp of major innovation and that major innovation is overdue.

I personally am not happy about this idea that we'll break it first and try to figure out how to fix it later. I

think that's a bad strategy. I think

lots and lots of people's lives get impacted by doing it that way. But at

the same time, I believe that if uh we agree that higher education needs to serve more people better, uh that suggests that we believe it hasn't been doing enough. It hasn't been

doing enough. It hasn't been accomplishing enough. And so this is

accomplishing enough. And so this is yeah this is a a stand up and and be counted moment I think for higher education to transform itself

or face the prospect of having society uh diminish its role um find alternatives to what higher education does find different pathways etc and I

think that would come to our our collective disadvantage uh I think it would it would erode our prosperity so I think I hope that higher education will

respond in this moment and actually see the opportunity for large-scale innovation uh to help make a difference uh both in terms of what they've long

done and been successful at but in finding ways to really do so in dramatically different form going forward because that's what society needs. Yeah, that hits me very hard,

needs. Yeah, that hits me very hard, Jamie, because I think again we've ran on uh in similar directions on different tracks, but uh you know, at the

institutional level, so much of our decision making and change as people, you can't make a decision that doesn't have an impact on somebody's lives. Uh

you know, in the Henderson story, and you're you're you're aware, we weren't the the most equitable outcomes for the students we served.

>> Uh to change it was hard, right? just

like you're saying uh society uh you know from a public policy standpoint.

That's >> right. Well, I've saved a hopeful

>> right. Well, I've saved a hopeful question uh for you and um my good friends and uh you know I know you've tracked Scott Carlson and Ned Laughs

Hacking College. They talk a lot about

Hacking College. They talk a lot about hidden jobs. Um, and when I I think

hidden jobs. Um, and when I I think about your leadership, you know, the span of of public policy, of finance, of

strategy, uh, more particularly of philanthropy, um, and and changemaking, there's a lot of hidden jobs, Jamie, right? I mean the the work that you do

right? I mean the the work that you do and the people you do it with when we think about you know post-secary education and and access credentials

learning training there's just a so if you were coming in rather than us kind of being either uh

rear view or front view of the mirror um you know where would you guide people where where's the opportunities to serve because as you think about that uh set

of student success metrics that embedded within the new goal, right? Is putting

people into positions of building a better world. Um,

better world. Um, >> right.

>> So, how do you encourage young people?

What where would you uh encourage them to look and where are the the opportunities going to be found?

>> Yeah, I think look, I think there are a lot of opportunities and I think being in this space of helping to transform the learning system is exciting overdue

uh stuff. Um, you know, you and I are

uh stuff. Um, you know, you and I are both uh, you know, Chuck, we're in the second half of our careers. We don't

know which part of the the half we're in, but we're in the second half. And,

uh, you know, I think the people who are in the first half of their careers should be looking at at higher education as a great opportunity for, you know,

tremendous societal impact. And that's

going to come in a variety of different ways. It's going to be transforming the

ways. It's going to be transforming the teaching and learning process, transforming the financing system, transforming understanding of of what people should know and be able to do. Uh

doing a better job of creating a more efficient, more effective system. There

are lots of ways in which people can impact this and that includes at at an institutional level, at a sort of system level and even at a at a policy level.

And so I see this space in particular being um really an exciting space to be in and we you know we've seen lots of of proposed changes in recent years. I

think that's going to accelerate out of necessity but I think uh we need people who have the ideas and the energy and the drive to say I believe higher

education is important but I believe it's got to do more and better. And um

so I'm I'm an optimist. I continue to be an optimist. And I think people uh early

an optimist. And I think people uh early in their careers should see higher education as an opportunity. If you want to have an impact on society, if you are sort of motivated by large-scale social

change, helping to transform higher education, boy, what an opportunity this is. you know, um I want to underline and

is. you know, um I want to underline and maybe just put a period on what you just said because there's a leadership characteristic that Lumina and and you

brought this to Lumina as its CEO, but there is a dogged persistence, right, required for us to consider that future and to do college more and to do it

better.

We stay focused on that, the world will be dramatically different in 2040.

>> That's exactly right. And I I I've woken up every day since January 1st of 2008 thinking that's why I'm here at Lumina Foundation. Uh that's uh that's what we

Foundation. Uh that's uh that's what we have the privilege of doing as a as a large national foundation and I believe that now more than ever. Well, and um

I'm not going to miss this opportunity to thank you personally um as a friend um but professionally for the enterprise, the industry, senior

leaders. Um

leaders. Um every day I have a chance with boards and and leaders to say you need something that transcends where we are currently. You need a big goal,

currently. You need a big goal, >> right? And uh I think the way Jamie that

>> right? And uh I think the way Jamie that you've stated this 2040 goal uh makes me want to get back to a campus uh and see what we can do.

>> See, like I said, we're in the second half, so we don't know which part of the second half. So there's lots of

second half. So there's lots of opportunities ahead, Chuck. Yeah. Well,

thank you and thank you very much for your leadership. Truly, I think uh you

your leadership. Truly, I think uh you know, we have we have touched different parts of the elephant. Uh you know, we we've we've been working in different parts of the system, but we've very much been aiming in in the same direction.

And I'm I'm very grateful for your leadership over these these many years.

>> Well, and for Lumina and for you. Uh

again, thanks for taking this time. I

think it's a critical conversation, Jamie. Keep on keeping on and uh we'll

Jamie. Keep on keeping on and uh we'll keep on trying to operationalize it in ways that helps people. So, thanks.

Thanks very much.

>> All right. Thank you. Great to be with you.