EMMA WATSON EXCLUSIVE: The TRUTH I Have Never Shared Before..

I realized have the career and the life

that looks like the dream, but are you

really happy, Emma? Are you really

healthy? And have to admit to myself

that I wasn't was one of the scariest

things I've ever had to do.

>> The number one health and wellness

podcast,

>> J Shetty.

>> J Shetty,

>> the one, the only J. Shetty.

>> Emma, welcome to On Purpose. I'm so

grateful that you're here and

>> you know you've kind of been out of the

public eye for a while now.

>> Yes.

>> And don't do that many interviews. I've

watched the interviews you have done

even before we plan to do this. And I

wanted to ask from an intention point

almost of why now? Why today? Why here?

>> I think I mentioned but I read your book

um because my my dear friend Nuper told

me that I should and every now and again

I would see you come up on my feed. I

don't spend much time on Instagram

anymore, but when I did, I just felt

like you were having a different

conversation. And it's not that I have

stopped doing interviews because

I want to hide myself away. I think it's

because I wanted to be able to have a

certain type of conversation that I

didn't seem able to find a space for.

And so I called Nooper and said, "I

think I just reached out to Jay to see

if you would let me come and do his

podcast on Monday." And she was like,

"I've been waiting for this. I wondered

when you would do this." I was like,

"How did you know I was going to do it?"

She's like, "I don't know. I just felt

like this was coming." So, um, here I

am. And you said yes and the timing

worked. I I contacted you last week and

it's Monday and so

>> well from Well, that means the world to

me. Truly. I'm so grateful for that

because the few interactions and

conversations we've had since then and

you've sent me a few things to read over

whether it's journals or reflections and

honestly I I think I just said it to you

a few moments ago and I mean it even if

we weren't having this conversation

today and you just sent me those things

to reflect on myself that would have

already been a gift and so the

opportunity to actually sit with you and

to talk about these things and have the

space to have a conversation that you

feel you haven't had before means the

world to me and so thank you for

trusting me and it's I I look forward to

getting to know you so much better. But

let's let's dive in. I want I wanted to

start by asking you like you said

something there that was really

beautiful because you stopped for a

moment then you said it's easier to be

honest

>> and and I was wanted to understand what

that what that meant to you and how that

feels. Such a big part of my job was

trying to think three steps ahead of how

everything that I would say would be

could negatively impact the film that I

was trying to do justice to and do

service to and make sure that people

understood what the director had

intended and I felt this enormous sense

of responsibility all the time to honor

so many people's work that put together

something like a film or you know even

to some degree. I just did a fragrance

with Prada and it's the first perfume

bottle that you can like refill and I

don't know I I take my job seriously I

guess and so interviews to me felt a lot

like chess and it required so much

energy and I think what's nice about the

way that I'm showing up today is I'm

just showing up for myself and for once.

I actually am not here to um speak on

behalf of anyone else or anything else

other than myself, which is unusual.

>> Yeah. I think I think it's such a

fascinating thing because as a viewer,

even before I got closer to the

industry,

>> as a viewer, everything's made to feel

in traditional media so

easy and it has levity and it feels like

you're getting someone's real

personality and and then you realize

that you are. There's definitely reality

to it and truth to it.

>> Yes.

>> But at the same time, naturally, it's

work.

>> Yeah.

>> And and there's a job. And I think it's

not as

>> And you can shed more light on this. I

don't think it's always as insidious or

as dark as people may think it is, but

there's there's just it's a job and it's

work and there's results that matter,

>> right?

>> 100%. And I think within those contexts,

everyone is trying to be as authentic as

they humanly can be. But there's

something about I think it's why I

mentioned um earlier about why I felt

like this was a good space is there's

something inherently written into

certain types of forms of media which is

that it it doesn't matter what intention

or or how authentically you want to show

up the form like somehow doesn't allow

it

>> to some degree and I've become obsessed

with this recently. I've been looking at

okay what is written into the form of

something like Twitter or Instagram or

Tik Tok or a podcast versus or a

photograph versus a film versus a piece

of writing and it's really interesting

to see what a different medium or

different form allows or doesn't allow

and or like actually creates or

encourages. I've never done a podcast

before, but I love I think what I love

about it is the is the intimacy of it.

It's like I feel like people listen to

podcasts when they're like I certainly

do anyway like first thing in the

morning when I'm taking my shower or I'm

going on my walk or I'm making my

breakfast. It's really like personal

intimate time and I think the long form

version of these kinds of conversations

uh allows for such a different kind of

discussion that I don't think was

possible before.

>> Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with

you more. I was going to ask you

actually because I want everyone to get

up to date with where you are now. Like

what is what does your day-to-day life

look like? You just said like I wake up

and I shower and I go on a walk. Like

what does your day-to-day life look like

right now? And what what makes what's it

made of and what are the things that you

love and look forward to?

>> I recently started riding a bicycle and

yes, I started riding a bicycle before

my driving van, but now it's

particularly fortuitous that I also ride

a bicycle um for that reason. But

>> I thought that was mainstream news.

>> Yeah. Oh my god. I was getting phone

calls like it's on the BBC. It's on

international worldwide news. I was like

my shame is that it's everywhere. This

is I mean what I say it's I don't know.

I think in a funny way what the sweetest

result of it was getting so many

messages from being people being like

happened to me too. I feel you. This is

awful. It sucks. Um which was kind of

nice in a way but um

>> lift.

>> Yeah totally. Do you need a lift? It's

like actually yes. But I think again

it's funny like I I went from when you

work on movies I don't know if people

know this but like they literally will

not insure you to drive yourself to

work. I've asked so many times.

>> You have to be driven.

>> You have to be driven. It's like not a

choice. And especially because they need

you there, you know, down to the minute

basically depending on what they have

going on. And so I went from basically

only driving myself on weekends or

during holiday to then when I became a

student driving myself all the time and

yeah I did not have the experience or

skills uh clearly which I now will and

and and do. But I think again this was

one of these like awkward transitions I

made from kind of living this like very

very structured life to living a life

where I was like okay I guess I'm going

to get myself to this place and I'm

going to like do this thing that I've

basically not done since I was 10 years

old. So, it's been a discovery and a

journey that's been um yeah, I guess

humbling because

on a movie set, I'm able to do all of

these like extremely complex things,

stunt, sing, dance, like do this thing,

do that, whatever. And I'm like, "Yep,

don't worry about it, guys. No worries.

I've got you." And then I get home and

I'm like, "Okay, Emma, you seem unable

to remember keys. you money to like keep

yourself at 30 mph in a in a in a 30 m

speed limit. Like you you don't seem

able to do some pretty like basic life

things. And it it was definitely kind of

Yeah, I had days where I just wanted to

turn around to people and be like, I

used to be good at things. Okay. I used

to be really good at things. And I know

it doesn't look like that right now, but

um I I used to I I can do things

normally. Um, so yeah, it's been uh it's

been humbling.

>> I feel I feel like all of us I feel like

all of us can relate to that though

because doesn't everyone forget their

keys, their wallet, doesn't know where

things are? Like these are these are

like ser And by the way, I was I think I

was three points away from losing my

license before I moved to the States.

>> Thank you for that confession. I

appreciate that so much.

>> Because I was in the States for I've

been in the States now for 9 years and I

think it happened just but then all the

points get wiped off.

>> Wow. And I think I'm now back to six

points. I spent two months in London a

year.

>> Okay. Every time I go back, I seem to

>> Oh, much better. Wow.

>> So, I'm confessing to you.

>> But I haven't lost it.

>> A lot of people actually a lot of people

have like taken it upon themselves to

come and confess to me, which I found

like very like very endearing and like

really really appreciate it. But no, I

think, you know, I think something I've

been realizing is we most of us live in

a state of like I'm just trying to kind

of figure it out and keep it together.

And the only thing that is different

between us is people's willingness to be

honest about

that. The degree to which they can admit

to actually I'm just like scrabbling

around trying to keep the pieces

together versus um oh yeah I know

everything's amazing and everything's

incredible and I'm having the best day

ever and aren't you? And you know, so I

do love the people who who are just

willing to be like, "Yeah, it's uh it's

not going so well today." I'm like,

"Great, amazing. What a good starting

point." Like I don't know, failure as a

starting point. Feels like I feel like

attempting things is so compelling. And

>> of course success is wonderful, but I

love to see people who are like, "I'm

really bad at this, but I'm going to

try." like I love you. That's everything

to me. Everything.

>> And that seems to be becoming harder and

harder now.

>> Like that desire to attempt something

that you might not be good at because

it's exposed or because everyone will

see it or because everyone will hear

about it.

>> Talking about attempting things. I mean,

you're currently studying, right? You're

learning.

>> Yes. Yes. Well, two things I want to say

there is I think in a way I was sort of

I mean I'm someone who's always cared

about vulnerability and authenticity,

but I think I was also forced into it to

a degree that that maybe even I wasn't

ready for and that like I just started

so young that like I had to learn in

public. I had to make mistakes in public

and say, "Oh, okay. Now I've learned

this." And I had to be willing to go

back and be like, hm, like there was

some gaps here. Um, and here's what I

know now. And I think people's I agree

with you. I think it's becoming

increasingly difficult to learn in

public and continuing to learn. I mean,

I think that's one of the reasons why I

I have gone back to school and why I

continue to do it is because I want to

make sure that I have things to say that

are worth saying. And I think you can

only do that if you take a minute

sometimes and

listen to some people who aren't you,

you know, like not just the sound of my

own my own wonderful voice. Um, so yeah,

it's been it's been great. And I think

also I needed to I wanted to be

inspired. I think being around my

favorite piece has been being around

young people who still believe that the

world is malleable and things are

changeable and that like anything can be

done is um such important energy.

There's so much dystopian fiction at the

moment and dystopian movies so dark.

>> It's so dark and I'm just like

>> what happened to thinking about the

utopia? What happened to like planning

for the best case scenario? like where

where did we lose

yeah vision excitement imagination

possibility so I think it's been um yeah

it's been wonderful to be around young

people and just to sit there and listen

>> do you ever I mean you clearly read so

much do you have to take yourself away

to do it in order to be able to do it do

you have to cordon off time like how are

you still managing to study and learn

because that seems like it's important

to you Yeah. You you reminded me as you

were talking of one of my spiritual

teachers, my monk teacher, who always

said to me, if you want to move three

steps forward, you have to go three

steps deep first.

>> Whoa.

>> And what I found often in my life is I'm

trying to go four steps forward and I

haven't yet gone four steps deep. And so

it's almost like I mean this is probably

a a terrible analogy, but maybe thinking

of the movie The Substance. I don't know

if you watched it.

>> Okay, fine. Okay. Terrible. Let's let's

remove No, no, no. Let's forget about

it. But but it's that idea of like every

extra step you take when you haven't

learned and you haven't experimented and

you haven't attempted

>> is taking away from your ability to move

forward. And sometimes I think when we

feel stuck or when we think things are

not moving or they're not progressing.

>> You may be a sign to say well pause and

go deeper for a second or pause and go

inward for a second. And so to me,

hearing that from you, I I find that and

and I'm I definitely fail at this all

the time.

>> There are so many times I'm trying to

push more forward than I've gone deep.

>> And so whenever I notice that myself and

I notice that I'm just kind of trying

everything and nothing is working, it's

actually just the universe and self

saying to me, go read, go study. And so

I found that I've had to really carve

out time to make time to do what I love,

which is to read and study. But I found

that I'm someone who doesn't love 30

minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a

reader. I'm someone who needs to read

for 3 or 4 hours, if not more. And so I

found that carving out deep immersive

time is more important to me than this

kind of mechanical 30 40 minutes a day,

which is great for you if that works for

you as a habit. It doesn't bit of an

extremist and I just need to spend a

whole weekend reading

>> as opposed to I don't need to read every

day. So I'll try and I try once a month

on a weekend to just absorb into a

subject that I love and I'll take a

course, I'll go to a class, I'll watch a

TED talk online, I'll read as many books

as I can and I try and immerse myself

that way. What's your learning style?

I'm the same as you. And actually u

someone who I really respect and ask for

advice for often and I ask for feedback

on on myself. He said to me, Emma, I

think if you did 90% of what you wanted

to do at 50% of the speed, you would get

so much more like life would be so much

better. And I was like, "Wow, 50% of the

speed and only 90% of what I want to

do." And he was like, I think that's the

minimum to be honest. And I was like,

wow. But I think it, yeah, what you said

resonates. I think I often have to

remind myself that it's not about

speedily getting somewhere. It's just

not the point. Things are supposed to

happen um with a certain timing. And so

um yeah, resonates. And and to your

point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes

and look at something. I need I need

kind of like a week on holiday and then

I'll start to deeply get into something

and I need quiet and I hyperfocus and I

that's when I you know I love it but I

can't I can't do little itty bitty bits.

It drives me nuts.

>> It just doesn't work for me.

>> It doesn't work. So it doesn't work for

me. Resates.

>> You said that you felt that you had to

learn in public and then you made

mistakes. Like what were mistakes that

felt like mistakes then

>> that made you feel like oh gosh I made

that mistake in public but I was 10

years old or whatever it was

>> and now you look back and you think oh

you know I was able to process it.

>> Yeah. I I think the big one was feminism

and intersectional feminism and frankly

it just like wasn't taught. you know, I

had to really seek out and I'm really

grateful actually that I was in many

ways quite lovingly called in as opposed

to I mean some of it was not but I think

that was definitely a moment where I had

to say okay I'm talking about something

really big and important and it's

actually really important to sit this in

some context which I have not done and I

think that was a big moment. I think it

was more there was an omission that was

there was things that were missing as

opposed to I had said something wrong. I

just needed I just needed to fill in

more gaps. And so um that was when I

started or that was actually in the

middle. I had a I had a feminist book

club called Art Shad Shelf.

>> And um so that was part of those

conversations. But it was a good moment

for me to learn that feeling

uncomfortable sometimes is good. I think

we have an alarm system that goes off

which is like I'm uncomfortable. This

feels uncomfortable. So something bad

must be happening and I must leave as

soon as possible. And actually I think

that was when I started to learn, oh

actually me being uncomfortable in a

space um might be a good sign because it

might mean I'm about to learn something.

And I want to attribute this that was

Mara Larasai who who helped me

understand that and uh was a very very

valuable teaching. So now when I'm in a

space and listening to things and I feel

uncomfortable I don't think it means I

need to bolt or something bad's

happening.

>> Yeah.

>> Maybe something really good is about to

happen.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I feel like that goes back to

what we started with this idea of

attempting means discomfort

>> and attempting means incomplete.

>> Yeah.

>> In that and I love I love that point you

made that actually whenever we're

sharing anything it's not that it's not

true. It's that it's not complete.

>> Yes.

>> And mostly when we see people say things

or

>> share ideas, it's very rare to have

anyone ever share a complete idea

because that means they would have had

to think about it from every single

vantage point. Yeah. which is not even

humanly possible.

>> It's not possible. It's not possible.

And I think Adrien Marie Brown, I don't

know if you've ever had, she's she wrote

an amazing book which um is one of her

more recent ones which is called Loving

Corrections. and she speaks to kind of

exactly this, which is

there's kind of this like

that we see online when people don't

attribute something perfectly to someone

else or they're missing something and

it's like, isn't the whole point of this

that we're in conversation? And if it's

the right person, you can see that a

good intention is there,

>> then maybe we can

kind of do it in a way that doesn't need

to be I mean obviously there's there's

important time and place for holding

people accountable.

>> Um but maybe I don't know attributing

like great we're all going to help each

other kind of pad this out fill this

out.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a hard I think

that's the hard part. It's like how do

you differentiate between holding

someone accountable

>> and giving them grace? And that's a

really interesting discussion in and of

itself. And I don't think I I have the

answer or know exactly what it is, but I

feel like that's a thought exercise as

humans that if we were to do it would

actually I don't know. What's your take?

>> Maybe the grace is attributing good

intention and the accountability is the

courage it takes to actually say

something to someone. because it's such

a scary thing to do and it often

requires a lot of emotional labor

>> and I find this a lot as a woman when

I'm especially as a woman who's dating

that like I I will just be like is it

worth me explaining is it worth me

explaining this thing or should I just

not take the time to do this because

sometimes I will really I care about

doing it kindly and compassionately.

And it's very rare for me to attribute

bad intent to anyone, but you know,

sometimes it does fall on on deaf ears

and you're like that text message took

me like 40 minutes like to word

perfectly or that voice note or whatever

and you're like is this making a

difference? Like am I getting through to

any is transformative justice real? Like

is this is this label worth it? But I

think I don't have a perfect answer. I I

I'm not I haven't lived through enough

of it to know. I guess I've just reached

a point where it's like I'd rather I'd

rather die trying. I'd rather die having

tried. And maybe some small piece of it,

even if it's not now, even if it's at

some future point, like something I've

said just like goes, "Oh, something at

the back of my mind here, someone says

something to me, then you know, maybe

it's worth it."

>> Yeah. I will never believe that one

negates the other and that my experience

of that person

I don't get to keep and cherish.

I to come back to our earlier thing like

I just don't think these things are

either or. I hope people who don't agree

with my opinion will love me and I hope

I can keep loving people who I don't

necessarily share the same opinion with.

And I think that's a very very important

way for me that I need to be able to

move through life. I really do believe

in

having conversations. And I guess where

I've landed is

it's not so much what we say or what we

believe,

but very often how we say it. When you

think about Little Emma,

>> Yes.

>> like what was a childhood memory that

you have, a core memory that you have

that you feel has defined who you are

today somewhat?

>> I think I won't share the specific

memory cuz it's so personal, but

I think I've always felt other people's

pain very intensely. M

>> um until

maybe recently, I

did not know how to give myself grace

and navigate

seeing my sensitivity as a strength and

knowing that

it's like my gift,

but it also

means I have to care for it in specific

specific ways. When you are given gifts,

there's often

kind of have to compensate in some other

ways. And in the same way that like my

position in life and fame has given me

this extraordinary power, it's also

given me a lot of responsibility. And

these things often have these kind of I

don't know when or why it started, but I

think

I've always whoever it was that was

suffering in the room, I was always the

most aware of them.

>> And I think that has formed

a lot of why I could act. It was almost

like I was kind of sucking all of this

in and then I needed to

let it out somewhere or unleash it

somewhere. And I remember when my

parents saw me on stage for the first

time afterwards, they were just like,

"Where did that come from? You don't

have any of these experiences." I

recorded a song for my 12th birthday. My

mom bought me a day in a recording

studio. And I sing Natalie and Bruy is

torn. Like I've had my heart broken

50,000 times, you know? Like I've been

married and divorced and whatever. And

I'm 12 and I've never had a boyfriend

and I don't know anything about love.

Have you ever thought about where it

came from or

>> I would imagine I I can't say for sure.

I would imagine that

my family structure has not been a

traditional family structure. And that

feeling of knowing that

I'm from a situation where we just don't

quite fit the kind of nuclear family

mold. And I think coming back from

France and trying to figure out how to

sort of integrate and being the eldest

and having my younger brother and having

my mom and like trying to sort of be

some sort of glue or holding together

for everyone's feelings.

>> I'm pretty sure that's probably where it

>> that's where it started.

>> Yeah. Um, and then I guess just being

aware of other people who might feel the

way I did, which is like, who else in

here doesn't feel like they quite fit?

>> I've always found that it took me a

while to recognize, but when I did, it

was so helpful that a lot of what I do

today is because I mediated my parents'

marriage growing up.

>> And so I developed all these skills of

listening and empathy and grace and

compassion because I was doing it for

two people that I loved.

>> Yes. And I see it as a strength and yes

it comes with it comes with certain

things for sure it comes you're

absolutely right but at the same time

I've always seen it as a strength

>> and it's something that has served me

well in my marriage it's served me well

in my relationships

>> and at the same time it has certain

>> consequences that that that make you

different or or make you process things

differently and so and I remember one

thing you shared with me

>> that I was reading it you you said, "I

used to spend my weekdays with mom and

my weekends with dad."

>> And you said it almost felt like you

were changing costumes sometimes.

>> Yes.

>> And they're all like this two lives kind

of thing.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> And and I feel that's so relatable. I

feel like so many people can relate to

that. Whether

>> whether their family was more

traditional or wasn't,

>> I think every child has had this feeling

of not fitting in quite and not knowing

which life they're meant to lead and

that feels like it's kind of

>> Yes.

>> played into yours.

>> Yes, for sure. I think it's also why

I've had to really navigate my

relationship towards art and acting

because I'm pretty sure that I was using

acting as a way of escaping how painful

um my parents

like it wasn't just the divorce. It was

just like the continuing situation of

living between two different houses and

two different lives and two different

sets of values. And as a child like

being aware of like hm we don't quite

have the support we need here for this

like this is not quite we're not quite

like and I think it does it makes you

it made me a slightly

serious child because I was like had

that consciousness and then when I would

go and spend the weekend with my dad it

was like a very different set of rules,

very different situation and so you do

you kind of like

and I think everyone can relate to this

to an extent that it's not that you are

be like wanting to become different

people but it's you there are different

expectations of you in different places

that you understand that you need to

fill and so I think some of that split

then became I was like okay wow you know

my parents have very different views

views on different things. And the hard

part of that was that no one gave me any

easy answers.

>> It meant I had to form all of my own

opinions myself because there was no

consensus.

>> And it made me a critical thinker for

sure because

>> and so that was amazing and also really

like gosh, okay, I need to decide what I

think is important in life and what my

opinions are. No one's handing me this.

>> Yeah. Maybe it also made me aware of

um not wanting to be so split as well

>> and why

it's been important to me to try to

remain whole.

>> Yeah.

>> In all the different circumstances of my

life and ask myself questions about how

I can do that best because I think I

experienced as a child that the split is

painful. Like if you're living a reality

one way but presenting something else,

those are the moments when it can it can

you can really feel torn apart. And

I I recognized that and I didn't want

that to be my life. I didn't want

pretend to be my real life.

>> Yeah. I mean that's so I I I can so

relate to you personally on the idea of

not having a blueprint and having to

create my own.

>> Yeah.

>> And how often when you don't have a

blueprint, you feel you have two

choices.

>> And that's where you feel torn.

>> Whereas when you look at it as a whole

and go, okay, well now I get to craft my

own narrative from this

>> and I may take a few pieces from here

and a few pieces from here and I'm going

to form my own puzzle.

>> But I don't have to choose a path. Yeah,

>> it's really beautiful when you do it,

but it's really hard because it just

feels like there are two

impact,

>> you know, your work. And you you said

there, you said that one thing you

mentioned that really stood out to me

was you felt that acting

>> was in some way escaping that kind of

which version do I have to be? And I

think so much of what we do for work or

so much of what we pursue as humans

>> is based on something we're trying to

build create

>> maybe escape from, maybe to reveal

something. And I think we haven't often

looked at

>> work that way. Like sometimes we choose

a career because we know it will make

our parents happy. And so we're living a

pattern or sometimes you choose

something because it breaks the pattern

that you were growing up in. And it it's

fascinating to me to look at that. for

you, you were acting in school plays

since you were a a young girl.

>> And was acting always something you were

going to do, or did do you feel like it

was this cross-section of what was

happening in your personal life that

actually made that feel like the

direction you would choose?

>> I think it's so interesting that you

said those words, reveal and escape,

that that they kind of the same thing

because I think that it all started with

a poem. I did a poetry competition when

I was nine called the Daisy Pratt poetry

competition. And I'm actually naturally

quite a shy person. Uh and so actually

for me to stand up in front of people

feels like an out-of- body experience.

Like there's so much adrenaline coursing

through my veins that it does feel like

a moment outside of time. And I remember

the exhilaration of

living the kind of ups and downs of this

poem.

And maybe because there wasn't

space to have conversations or express

myself at that time in the way that I

needed to. I did it through performance.

And I also did it as a way of getting to

feel free for a moment of of what I was

like the discomfort of that time of not

quite knowing who I was or how to be in

the world. And

as I've become more

healed and whole and and more

comfortable being myself, it's been

interesting to ask myself, do you still

need acting? do you still need to act?

Like why

what are you doing that for? And like

the kind of it used to feel like almost

like a compulsion that I needed to do

it. And what's really interesting now is

I don't feel quite

that kind of urgency of needing to do

it. And I wonder if it's because

actually

I have spaces where I can now take some

of those feelings and talk about some of

the things I I don't think I had space

to to voice

>> in in

>> without doing it on camera in front of

thousands of people.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Which which is which is scary in

its own way, right? It's like it's easy

to

>> it's easy to think, "Oh, that makes

sense." But then it's like, well, no,

it's it's really challenging

>> to do that second part.

>> Yeah.

>> Even even if it makes sense rationally

or logically. And

>> was was that what in in 2019 when you

kind of pulled away

>> was your reason I want to heal and work

on myself or was it actually I don't

feel a compulsion anymore? Like was that

the inflection point of

>> doing some self work or was that the

inflection point of need to pause? I

realized I was drawing on painful stuff

in my life that I was actually healing

and I didn't want to keep revisiting in

order to do some of the more intense,

scarier, sadder things that I had to do.

I realized

I remember

by Beth's

um deathbed by her by her graveside when

we shot those films. Like normally there

are like these painful memories that I

would use for those moments. And I

realized I was like I don't know if this

is super great for me actually to keep

to keep revisiting these or if I want to

use these as my tools and I don't think

that means I'll never come back to

acting. I think it just meant I was like

hm I wonder if there's a different way

to do this. Mhm.

>> I think the second thing was to be

really honest.

I was coming to those sets

with an expectation that I think I had

developed on Harry Potter, which was

that we were the people I worked with

were going to be my family and that we

were going to be lifelong friends. I

came to work looking for friendship

and that was a very painful experience

for me outside of Harry Potter and in

Hollywood.

like

bonebreakingly painful. Um because most

people don't come to those environments

looking for friendships. They're looking

for this is my chance. This is my role.

This is what I want out of it. I'm

focused. This is my job. This is my

career. Like let's go. And I was not of

that mindset. And so I found I found the

rejection really painful.

>> The friendship rejection. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Of like I re I was like I I think

it's so unusual to make a set of films

for 12 years and we were a community.

Like we we really were. And so I took

that as an exploitation into my into my

other workplaces and I just got my I

just got my ass kicked. I really did.

Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it

just hierarchy? Was it

>> I think it was a combination. It was a

molotov cocktail of all of the above. As

we mentioned earlier, I'm just not thick

skinned. Maybe I just wasn't built for

those kinds of highly competitive

environments.

It Yeah, it broke me. Yeah.

But in a way, I'm proud that it did

because I guess that means I have

something left to break. I have a heart

left to break.

So,

it was a hard learning, but I think

there's something that

I'm proud of in a way that there were

certain things I couldn't withstand.

I'd much rather keep my humanity.

>> Think there might be a tissue.

>> I'm managing to like

inside.

>> You need it. There is a tissue.

>> That's really No, but I really

appreciate you saying that and and I I

mean it's so powerful to hear how you've

processed it. like just what you added

there cuz when when I saw your voice

change and and just when you were

expressing it

>> and and it and it hit me as you said it

and I felt it and then the way you

reflected on it kind of helped that

feeling rise really beautifully because

what you said is so true that if you

were broken by a frequency of envy and

competition and whatever else it was

that's only proof that you were

vibrating in a way that didn't want to

be pulled down into that. And it's so

interesting though how when we break to

those sorts of emotions and ideas, we

feel we're the weak one.

>> Yeah.

>> When it's completely the opposite. That

was that was the most painful thing was

I thought I I beat myself up

for years afterwards really thinking

like punishing myself saying you

couldn't hack it, you weren't strong

enough.

>> And yeah, what what bliss and what peace

I think to understand that

to have come out on top

would have been

a greater failure I think in terms of

who I actually care about being.

>> Yeah. It's almost like if you abandoned

yourself in that moment in order to

align with that new way of thinking.

>> Yeah.

>> You'd probably beat yourself up more

long term and have a much harder time.

>> Yes, I think so. I don't know. I've just

got to this place where it's just if it

costs me any part of my piece, it's just

too expensive. And of course, like

there's opportunities that I think, wow,

like that would be amazing. And

I care deeply about

my work. Um, but I think it's just I

think I just used to completely

sacrifice myself for whatever the thing

was I was trying to achieve. And that

could be a grade, it could be a movie,

it could be promoting. I just was

obsessed with excellence and doing

everything, giving my all to everything

and doing it to the best of my ability.

And unless you have the right people

around you that can hold that kind of

level of commitment, you're going to get

smashed up. You're just going to get

crushed. And so I think now it's just a

case of me being like, okay, I know that

for me to do anything, I have to have

people in the room that care about me

more than whatever the product is or

whatever the final product is. And if

that isn't the case, I cannot be there

because I'm just someone who like gives

it all. It's how I'm built. And I think

understanding that makeup of myself and

not punishing myself for that, but just

knowing it needs certain kinds of

conditions is how

I've come to hopefully I'll keep doing

it forever and probably every day, but

accepting myself. Yeah, it seems like I'

I've spoken to so many and we were

talking about this last week when we

were when we were speaking on the phone

that I I've worked with so many young

people, musicians who who've all been

told like, "All right, if you don't do

this over the next 12 months, you're not

going to make it."

>> Yeah.

>> Or like if you don't do this right now,

if you don't say yes to this song or

this movie, it's like you might as well

wave it goodbye. You're never going to

get the Oscar or the whatever it may be

or the Grammy or whatever it is. And I

can't imagine being a young person like

I'm 37 now and it's you process

>> ideas like that differently. Yeah.

>> But if you're in your teens or even 20s

there's and maybe even 30s, but you

process those statements with so much

gravitas, especially when it's someone

of influence and power saying it to you.

>> Yeah. It feels like being surrounded by

people who really believe in you and

your longevity and your art versus But

that's hard to find.

>> It is. It's hard to find.

And

you know, I I I had a wonderful team.

Like I I really did. I think it's just

like understanding that no one at the

end of the day is going to be in the

room like when you're actually doing the

thing. You have to carry that moment and

you have to carry that pressure. Also,

making films, the hours on them are so

demanding that to have your own life

alongside that, to have that balance is

almost impossible. It's so all or

nothing. It's so all-encompassing,

especially if you're in a lead role. Um,

you kind of go through these,

you know, working six days a week, 14 to

16 hour days, and then you're just kind

of dropped off at the end of it. and

maybe you'll have a 2 or 3 month gap and

then there's just kind of like nothing.

>> And so you're like riding this like

incredible peak of like adrenaline and

cortisol and then you just get like

dropped off the edge and then you're

like, "Okay, wait, now I have to be a

functioning human again and I have to

like figure out how to be a person in

the real world." And

I think some of those extremes

then force an actor to either decide,

well, I'm going to back to back it, so

I'm going to basically go from one movie

to the next, and that's going to be my

full life.

Or you have to navigate these huge

impacts on your nervous system that you

need a system and a support system to

help you navigate. And I think it's why

addiction and

mental illness

in my profession and in a lot of high

stress, high profile professions is so

common place because you're trying to

balance out these enormous

chemical

ups and downs.

>> Yeah. talk talk to people about why

because I think from the outside

>> when someone sees a red carpet

>> or when someone sees an event it looks

really glamorous like until I ever

attended anything and you know I I

always looked at it as like oh my gosh

it's so glamorous and everyone's there

and everyone must be friends and

everyone must know each other because

they all you know but but then you're

not saying that and neither is and and

anytime I've ever been on a red carpet

everyone's anxious and everyone's

nervous and that's the real experience

People are almost waiting to leave. Yes.

>> And some people do the red carpet and

leave immediately, but but what's going

on there? Like walk us through like for

people who may not

>> I think the first step is to just

understand

even though you're wearing an incredibly

glamorous dress and you're there to do

something exciting, I don't think

there's anything that can make it not

weird that people are screaming at the

top of their lungs. Like it it just

everything in your body says something's

wrong. like people are screaming

something's wrong.

>> But then you have to try to pretend as

though

>> this is all normal and you're unfased.

So you have like two things going on.

One, you're like navigating this like

sensory overload that's like telling

you, oh my god, something is really

wrong.

>> Telling you how to pose, telling you

where to look, telling you

>> Yeah. So, so you're trying to navigate,

okay, something feels wrong, but I need

to also simultaneously make it seem as

though I am the most graceful and the

most calm I've ever been in my whole

life. And I need to like pose for this

person and there's 50 different cameras

and I need to make sure that I look

perfectly into each and every one. And I

probably would have had four different

notes from the stylist about how I'm

supposed to stand and what I need to do

for the dress. And then I've got like 25

different talking points from the movie

of like what I need to get across and

also avoid saying or talking about. And

so like you need to be thinking about

that. And the the juggle is crazy. And

then I think everyone is in this like

kind of jumped up state. And so like

trying to have a normal conversation

with anyone is basically impossible

because you feel like an insane person.

And so these are not environments in

which you like have a nice chat with

someone really. I mean, maybe if you're

really lucky and you've worked with

someone for a long time and you've

established some trust, but I think that

was the other thing that was like really

difficult about movies and what like I

kind of laugh at. Well, not not in a

mean way. I don't but like you know you

always get asked when you're like

promoting these big films like so do you

guys hang out on set and like do you

guys hang out and like are you all

friends and everyone sort of like nods

enthusiastically but the truth is no one

has seen each other outside of work like

very very very rarely mostly because the

schedule is insane. Everyone's so tired

that when they get any time off you're

going straight back to your hotel room

to try to like claw in any piece of rest

that you possibly can. And like I don't

know like it friendships

require time and trust and presence and

those things like very rarely come

about. They they can and they like do

occasionally but it it's more of a more

of a you know solar eclipse than a than

an everyday situation. So yeah, but you

have to pretend. I think that's the part

that starts to feel icky after a while

is like you you have to pretend that

you're all best friends. And what's so

sad and and I I know this isn't just the

case for me, but like I think people

wish they were.

>> I think we wish we did have those real

connections and we did have that real

support. And so having to pretend that

something exists that you actually

really want but don't have is like

>> it's like pretty grainy in the wound,

you know? It's like it's pretty like

tough pill to swallow to have to act out

something that you wish were real but

isn't real.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and I think that's the part that

starts to kind of

>> Yeah. I can only speak for myself but

those are definitely the moments where

I've been like this feels dark. Like is

anyone else like this feels dark? Um,

>> yeah. And and there's such a real

reminder that it's still work. And it's

almost like asking anyone who works at

any company and saying, "Hey, do you

hang out with your team after work every

night?" And the answer is probably no.

Yeah. No. Everyone's go home to their

family. And maybe you've got a couple,

of course, you got a couple of friends

at work. And it's wonderful if you have

a friend at work that you work out with

or see after hours, but you're not

hanging out as the whole crew. It's it's

very unlikely.

>> 100%. and and it and it is that reality

check of no but this is also just work

>> and their character stories are not

their personal stories and it doesn't

and that's why I wanted to go back you

mentioned that you talked about how

Harry Potter had a family feel

>> and I wanted to ask you like how did

that come about in the first like what

what was where where did the auditions

come from like how did that become a

part of your life

>> yes so I did not go to a performing arts

school I'd never done anything. I never

acted professionally, but they came they

they did like a basically countrywide

search to find Harry, Hermione, and Ron.

And so they asked my school if they

wanted to submit any students who love

drama who wanted to audition. And so I

was one of I think about 12 students

that was asked if I wanted to audition.

I don't know. It was weird. I had this

weird weighted fated sense of destiny

pretty much from the moment that that

they said they mentioned the audition. I

remember I brought I think maybe like

seven different Beanie Babies with me

along and like all these different like

lucky talismans and I loved the world

and the books so much. My dad had been

reading them to me before bed when I

would spend the weekends with him and on

long car journeys. We'd often drive back

and forwards to France and that's how

the time would be passed. And so I was

just like loved the world, loved her.

And for me it wasn't so much about

acting so much as it was that like I

just

the books meant

so much to me personally.

>> Did you feel like it was destiny for you

or did it feel like did you always feel

like it was going to be this?

>> I always

>> because obviously the books were already

you know

>> I always felt like Hermione was I knew I

was never auditioning for anything else

like I knew it was her. I don't know. I

don't know how to explain it. Something

felt right about it. And

my yeah, my poor parents because if I

hadn't have got it, I think they knew

her crush. I ended up doing nine

auditions over a period of over a year

and a half, which for a 9-year-old is

>> a lot of work,

>> a massive commitment, but I was I loved

her.

>> I loved it. I really did. What do you

wish now that you would have known

before you became Hermione?

>> I did a pretty good job and I'm

actually I give my mother specifically

credit for this. She was like a warrior

for my normaly and for me having an

ordinary life and going to school and

no one wanted that. I mean, it would

have been considerably easier if I had

not continued going to school. Um, but

she,

wow, like I will forever be in her debt.

She somehow knew that me feeling part of

the ordinary world and feeling I had a

place in it and that I belonged outside

of those films was going to be crucial.

>> Wow, that's really incredible. It was

because she basically didn't have anyone

on her team. She was kind of on her own

on that one. And she fought tooth and

nail. She was like on the phone for

hours saying she has to sit her exams.

She has to go back. Like she needs to be

here. She she needs to have some parts

of a normal childhood. And

yeah, forever in her debt.

>> That's so special to have had that. And

have those Yeah. to have a parent who

who can foresee like and you can't see

anything for yourself. You're

>> Yeah. No. And to be honest, I didn't

really I didn't really get it if I'm

going to be I was like okay like I guess

it's important like you know I didn't

really get it. So I think

>> yeah she was amazing.

>> Yeah. When when did because from what I

was reading from what you shared with me

I was when did Emma you Emma Watson and

Hermione and the characters that then

followed start to get blurred and

intertwined because

>> that expectation that comes with

I I remember this and I and I share it

because to to give it to context to

people I was walking down the road with

one of my friends who's an actor who

gets recognized a hundred times for

every one time might get recognized. So,

just put in contact. And so, if we're

walking down like this person get

stopped 100 times for pictures and then

I'll get stopped once.

>> And

it was really beautiful cuz we we'd

spent a day together and that person had

been stopped 100 times and maybe I've

been stopped a couple of times.

>> And then they said something to me. They

said "Jay

Jay, you're really lucky." And I said,

"What do you mean?" And and I thought

they were going to say, "Because I'm I'm

anonymous to some degree." But they

didn't. He he said to me, he goes, "Jay,

you're really lucky because he goes,

"When people

stop me, they stop me for who I play to

be.

>> And when they stop you, they stop you

for who you are." And it was really

encouraging words from someone that I

respect a lot.

>> And I was like, "Wow." Like, I never

thought about it like that. I just I

just it hadn't hit me how different it

was.

>> And because I think you just see

>> fame or success or whatever is this one

big bubble of of stuff, especially when

you're not that close to it, you don't

know too much about it. And it was that

conversation that made me even be even

more personal with everyone that I ever

spoke to because they'd always have a

personal story or and and that's not not

to say that isn't true for music and for

acting and of course there is. I don't

want to take away from it.

>> No. No.

>> Um and I'm not saying that as a

egotistical statement. I'm saying it as

like how hard it is for an individual to

go through that.

>> Yes.

>> And to be disassociated from themselves.

>> Yes. Uh because that role could be a

part of you. It could be an expression

of you. It was a part of your life at a

certain period of time, but of course it

isn't you.

>> Yes.

>> Um but does that make any sense?

>> I remember when I gave my UN speech

about he for she and about feminism and

women's rights and people started

stopping me because of things that I had

come from me and that I had said. It

felt like a very significant transition

for me because I for the first time I

felt like I could look someone in the

eye and receive and accept something

that they were saying because I I felt

like it actually had something to do

with me and I wasn't just kind of a like

a custodian of something sacred which I

did take very seriously and I still do

but it had been a direct transmission

from me and I think that's why writing

has become so important to me is because

it's a way that I

say things directly and that feels

really meaningful. Yeah, I love I love

the word you just used there of the

difference between being a custodian

and you know direct transmission you

said and and that's such an interesting

way to think about it and I think each

and every one of us don't want to be

known as a lawyer or an accountant or a

doctor or a like that yes that's a part

of us and it's a role we play in society

and it of course brings significance and

value and worth and all of these

wonderful things but I think everyone

wants to be something beyond that And no

one wants to be that in their home. And

no one wants to be that with their

friends. And

>> no one no one want and and me included,

by the way. It's like I I try and me and

my f one of my friends who's a who's a

well-known stand-up comic, we always

joke about how

>> he hates to be asked to tell jokes on

command and and I try with my friends to

not say smart. I try not to say

thoughtful revelatory things because of

my friends. I just want to be like I I

don't want to have to coach someone's

marriage or solve their thing. I I don't

want to do that. Like I I just want to

be and and so even for someone who love

who is doing direct transmission a lot

more of the time even then there's a

feeling of well I don't want to say

anything profound in this conversation.

>> I need to put this down.

>> Yeah. I need to put the one down. Right.

>> Yes. Yeah. I think a big piece of me

like understanding again like why I

needed to take a minute is that like

even being the person

who was promoting the work became a kind

of role like Emma Watson became this

like avatar this this person that I

identified with but also kind of didn't

she'd become reproduced so many times

over and and kind of had become so

loaded by all of this different stuff

that I she almost felt too heavy to

carry. Like I kind of was like

I don't even know if I can if I can be

that anymore. Like I like you know

I went on a date like 2 years ago and

like it was the best confession ever.

But I was like messaging this person.

And they were like, "Emma," and he was

like, "Can I just say something? Like,

Emma Watson makes me anxious." And I was

like, "Emma Watson makes me anxious,

too. That's so good." Are on the same

page. Like, I get it. Like,

>> I I can't even be her. I I don't know

how to be her. Live up to to what I look

like on the cover of a magazine. I don't

look like that. Like, I I can't I don't

know. I don't even know how to touch

what that person's become. That was kind

of a funny realization at some point

where I was like, I really need to step

off this thing cuz I just once you've I

don't know there's such a glamorization

that comes hand inhand with being a

public famous person, especially if

you're a woman, like I feel I feel so

envious of my male co-stars who can just

put on a t-shirt and show up without

like this like whole rigma roll of kind

of becoming being acceptable enough to

be on camera and

like kudos to Pamela Anderson recently

just like doing the thing because it's

like the amount of courage it will have

taken to do that like I cannot even

begin to express to you it's wild the

the expectations

are

insane it's impossible

so

>> short on vacation

>> private space yeah just the the the the

the beauty expectations are so difficult

to reach and the bar gets raised all the

time. So, it's like you're on this

constantly like I don't know, it's like

a some sort of like like Survivors

Island game show beauty nightmare where

you know, I don't know. It's it's it's

nuts. So I Yeah, I think part of also

not feeling like Emma Watson is just

like the whole like glam squad culture

of of it all is

it's intense.

It's yeah it's so fascinating because

there's almost like this this learning

of becoming

>> you know becoming Emma Watson becoming

you know being all the roles you play

and then it almost feels like what

you're saying is there was a moment you

wanted to step off and unlearn what that

meant.

>> Totally.

>> But that seems really hard.

>> Yes.

>> Because

>> Yes. Learning it was hard enough and

then to unlearn it when it's linked to

>> your work, your finances, your worth,

your friendship, community, connection,

all of the where you live.

>> How do you even begin to unlearn being

Emma Watson?

>> It's a knotted ball you have to sort of

unravel very carefully and

>> carefully. That's it. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think

>> it's not like a wrecking ball. like

you're not just

>> I mean some things had to be done like

the wrecking ball honestly and then some

parts of it were like a much slower more

gentle teasing out but I mean I don't

know if you find this but I imagine that

a lot of your friendships are made

through the podcast and made through

your work and there's kind of this like

non-separation between your home and

your family and your relationship and

the podcast your but tied tied into that

there's also like the very real some

people will be wanting you to reference

their new book or like promote something

for them or whatever and like navigating

that so many of these threads are

entwined. Does it ever start to feel

like you're like, "Wow, this is a lot."

People ask me all the time, "Do you ever

wonder why people

want to hang out with you or be your

friend or whatever?" And

does that ever get complicated for you?

>> I think because my direct transmission

is so clear,

>> that if anyone in the industry wants to

connect,

>> Yeah. there's usually quite a distinct

journey that they're on

>> that mine can support or help with as a

friend or in in a more formal capacity

and

>> that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for

because

>> people are not inviting me out to crazy

parties

>> and I'm happy. Yeah, they're not. Yeah.

They don't think I'm fun enough. Yeah. I

just I just saw I just saw a clip of the

other day of Austin Butler saying he's

he's he does he's never been invited to

a bachelor party before and I was like I

couldn't believe it. But but that that

kind of feel like I don't get invited to

crazy parties and and I'm grateful for

that. I don't that's not really a part

of my life, right?

>> Unless it's a spiritual party and then

then I'm all game and uh uh but but

there isn't that. And so sometimes I

think it's a good my direct transmission

is a good protective mechanism because I

don't really get asked to come to things

but then at the same time it takes me to

get to know someone deeply. Like I just

traveled with a friend uh to Greece and

we played and I don't think they were

anticipating this but we played three

nights of poker from midnight to 7:00

a.m. and it was amazing and I loved it

and I had the best time and I don't

think they expected me to do that. They

expect me to get to bed early but I was

on vacation and I was like game. Yeah,

exactly. and I won. So I was like, you

know, I'll take it. And I'm very

competitive in that way and I enjoy it.

And so I think what it is for me is I I

think there's a big thing for me has

been from

I grew up as part of a big community.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh in London.

>> Yeah.

>> And a big spiritual community that I

became a part of when I was young. And I

think that what I found is it's very

difficult to discern for people

externally and even for people in that

community as to how close they were to

me.

>> Right.

>> And so there are some people that assume

that because we sat in a class together

and there were 200 people in the class.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> But now that their opinion on me or that

their relationship with me is close

>> when in actuality I've never had a

one-to-one conversation with that

person.

>> And so now their opinion matters to the

outside world. It matters to the media.

it matters to whatever, but I actually

don't know that person and they don't

really know me,

>> right?

>> It's just so that we went to the same

congregation in the same year which has

lots thousands of people in it. And so I

struggle with that and then I also

struggle with

>> people coming up to me and saying, "Oh,

Jay, I've known you for 20 years and you

know, like from back in the day at the

temple and but I'm like we didn't like

we didn't ever have an like a

conversation." And I still have all my

best friends from that community that

are still my closest friends

>> and they also feel the same way because

they see it. And so I think I find that

very difficult.

>> Yeah, that's true.

>> Is is hard to navigate because it's not

that I don't have positive feelings

towards people or the community or

anything. I do. But I struggle with

>> people feeling they know me when they

never did,

>> right?

>> But they've almost created a story

within their mind that they really knew

me well. And because it was a big

community, this isn't a group of school

friends or something which I'm still

really close with. It's more this

expanded community which you were just

visible in, right?

>> Not even audible or

>> or if that makes any sense.

>> No, that makes perfect sense. I think

>> yeah, being part of a larger community

would be tricky to navigate with Yeah.

with the kind of I guess like being a

famous person in essence is like lots of

people can project lots of things onto

you and like if they had some level of

contact with you it makes those kinds of

projections a lot easier and then you're

like oh wow we're in a completely

different like your experience of this

is so different from mine.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah, and I mean

yours is like a million x that and you

know I can't imagine

>> I can't I can't imagine I can't imagine

how hard dating is

>> like you talked about in some of the

journal reflections that you sent me

like this idea of just like

>> dating is hard as a 20-year-old

30-year-old woman anyway.

>> Yeah.

>> And then to add your life to it.

>> Yeah.

>> Talk to me. You've referenced it a

couple of times in conversations you've

had. Like

>> what does it feel like when you're

having a normal conversation and someone

goes, "Wait a minute, you're

>> Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know,

list goes on." Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, it does it does feel like

my avatar enters the room unexpectedly

all of a sudden and then I'm like

navigating a completely different

conversation if someone hasn't figured

out that it's me yet. And that can feel

really dehumanizing and sometimes quite

kind of seeing someone's like behavior

like completely switch and turn and

change can be kind of a jarring

experience.

I think what's nice is at the very least

like dating for everyone is a is a

basically a complete disaster and

free-for-all. So, like I feel like I'm

in good company in that sense. But I

think it's funny occasionally people

will apologize to me for the fact

they've not seen my films and I will be

like please don't apologize. That is

bliss to me like music to my ears that

like you're not going to constantly be

navigating and me also navigating with

you. This projection of me or this Emma

Watson avatar person will not be this

ghost in the room. So, um, that's

happened a few times where people have

been like, "I'm really sorry." And I'm

like, "Please apologize. I'm so

relieved. I'm so incredibly relieved."

>> And then you realize they have the box

that later on.

>> Yeah. No. I'm like, "God, I hope not."

But I mean, I guess like I want people

to appreciate my work, but I think

knowing you don't have to navigate that

extra like degree of weirdness is

uh helpful, a relief. How do you help

people get to know the real you at this

stage in your life?

>> You know, I wrote this play that I

actually sent to you to read, but I

actually read parts of it to people um

because I find that trying to explain

sometimes how weird it is to be me.

Like I almost need AIDS. like it's not

it's so difficult to convey like how

weird it is and how surreal sometimes

that I sometimes I'll just be like can I

just like weed you this thing I wrote

because I think it's going to shortcut

you somewhere and so that's actually

been incredibly helpful and I'm I'm so

glad I I went and did this this creative

writing masters and I've spent more time

writing about my experiences because

sometimes I can't even articulate it to

myself like how how are you supposed to

explain something to someone else you

can't really even understand for

yourself? So, I think writing, creative

writing, making art has been the best

therapy I've ever done because it's

helped me get clarity and also just be

able to laugh at myself and laugh at the

situation. I think one-on-one therapy

can be amazing, but like there is a kind

of intensity and a seriousness to that

that maybe when you're writing something

down and when I wrote the play, I wrote

it for my friends and family and I was

able to kind of be more bring more of

myself to the picture in a way which is

someone who's like this is just nuts.

like I just can't like I can't sometimes

I just genuinely cannot believe that my

life is my life and um

I need a place I can put that.

>> Yeah, I I loved So just for everyone

who's you know hearing about the

referencing of this play, Emma wrote a

play

>> which helped her closest friends and

family understand her experience of life

basically.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Is that a bad description as a

>> No, no, it's not a bad description. But

like specifically, I wrote the play

about me transitioning from basically

being a full-time actress,

>> an activist to trying to move home and

like be a normal student and attend a

normal university as

a super famous person. And I I basically

kept a journal of what those experiences

were like and chronicled them for my

friends and family for about a year and

then performed it as a onewoman show at

the end of the first year and handed

that in as my as my first year piece of

work and Yeah. Yeah.

>> Did it again. E

>> it got a distinction.

>> Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love

it. It actually did. Not that that was

the point, but it kind of wasn't the

point, but I think the coolest thing was

was like I read it for my roommate, for

example, who's belonging with me for 7

years, and he was like, "Wait, wait,

stop, stop, stop, stop." He's like, "Is

this actually how you feel? Like, do you

actually feel this?" And I was like,

"Yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I

didn't." And he was like, "I had no idea

that this was how you felt." And this is

someone I live with. And so for me who I

perceive myself to be this like massive

open book and actually I realized I was

like wow I think I'm doing a good job of

bringing the people that I love along

with me on what this feels like and

actually I'm not saying nearly enough or

explaining it in a way where it makes

sense. And so even my parents were just

like couldn't believe it really. Yeah.

>> I'm sure they were brought to tears by

parts of it. I mean, I was I was so

moved by it and I really hope you do one

day make it a uh a production in some

capacity because it

>> it was so moving and so powerful and it

was Emma honestly it was what every

public figure

>> has ever tried to explain to me about

their experience yet put so succinctly

powerfully and meaningfully that anyone

could relate to it and I think anyone

meaning anyone who's ever felt

misunderstood stood to loved for what

they have and not who they are. Seen for

parts of themselves and not all of

themselves. And I I really believe it

would be such a service to everyone to

share it one day in however way you

decide to because honestly I was

gripped. I was completely captivated. I

couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm

going to read it again and again and

again. It's not something that I think

you read once. Not only are you a

brilliant writer, but it is so true and

honest. And for everyone who's listening

and watching, I think the lesson from it

for me is that your therapy

could turn into something creative that

when you shared that with me when we

were speaking on the phone, I was so in

awe of that that therapy in onetoone

setting or in whatever way of healing

you believe in,

>> if it turns into something you have to

put together to communicate to others,

that's the revelation. Like the

revelation is in that process, not in

the listening, telling, share, uh,

speaking, that that's great and that's a

part of it. But if you can go one step

ahead

>> truly, I I feel this like urgency and

like desperation to communicate this

specific piece, which is like make art

about your experiences. Like the

neurosis of being a writer, anyone

making anything is like, I don't have

anything valuable to say. It's all been

said before. This is so self-indulgent.

This is so narcissistic. Who even wants

to hear this? This is bad. I thought all

of those thoughts probably most days as

I wrote this. But trust me, like

whatever you think people know about you

or they know about your life or how you

feel about it, they don't. And they need

you to write poems, write songs, make

pictures, write plays. And you don't

need to be someone with the title of an

artist to be able to do that. You really

don't. And in fact, I have to write on

my mirror. I have it written on my door,

I am an artist because I don't think

anyone feels like they deserve that

title. I've been making films and

writing and making art since I was 9

years old. And I don't feel like I

deserve that title. And I have to work

at it all the time to feel like I have

anything that's worthwhile saying. I

really understand the struggle. I really

really do. But there is something about

doing it and like having a physical

thing because I think so many of these

thoughts and feelings live in our heads

and it's not a great place for them to

live. They need to come out somewhere

and once you can put them somewhere then

you're free. being understood or feeling

like you're understood by the people

around you has got to be the best

feeling in the world. And I think it's

what we're looking for when we

do so many things, but often that's not

the way to find it. And

>> I just God Yeah. If I honestly I want to

go to every person in the street and be

like you need to write a one person show

about your life and then perform it for

your friends and family or like you need

to like you know paint the thing, write

the song, like just do it because it's

kind of one of the best most meaningful

things I've I've done is trying to make

sense of

>> sense of it all. Yeah.

>> And I love that you did it for your

family. Like that's the part that proves

to me when you say the message of make

your art and

>> you know you don't need to be a

full-time actor or director or movie

filmmaker. It's like you actually lived

that part and that's what I love about

it the most is that you didn't make it

for a stage or a movie or a documentary

or whatever.

>> And honestly first I wrote it for

myself. I didn't think I honestly I

didn't think I had the guts to read this

aloud to anyone. I thought it was just

for me and maybe like two other people

and performing it for my like I didn't

even invite my family until like two

days before because I just didn't think

I had the courage. Make art for people

you love. Like make beautiful things for

people that you love. Just for people

that you love. Like that's one I I I

guess like I had the extraordinary

experience of making things for like the

world basically from such a young age.

And I I never made anything that I

didn't feel like needed to be shared

publicly. And I remember when I made

Little Women, I mean, that's such an

amazing thing about Louise May Alcott is

that really she wrote those stories for

her sisters. And so many people's

journeys and paths start because yeah,

out of love, they wrote them for just

one person. There was a certain point I

remember in my life where I was like,

"Right, I'm done with university now and

now I'm going to just like focus full

what I should be doing is just focusing

full-time on being an actress." and you

know doing all of that and I had

completely missed actually that Emma the

academic, Emma the student, Emma the

person that needs to needs to constantly

be learning things facilitated my

ability to be a famous person and in

Hollywood and that without her I

actually couldn't do it. I needed I need

to have both and that when one gets

stripped away and like even as I'm and I

explore this in the play as well like

even as I have returned to some form of

normaly ordinary life whatever that

looks like to me now like I also can't

kill her off completely you know my

public person there's parts of me that

like still does need those outlets and

to do those things too and I'm figuring

out what those are but I think that's

what's so complicated about being human

is is is it's yes and not either or.

It's we need we need to be all of

ourselves so that we can do the

extraordinary things that we we want to

do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts

of ourselves behind like kind of finding

a way to keep threading the tapestry of

all of it.

>> Yeah, I think that's I I mean you you've

said it so well and I really feel that

that's what it's been for me.

I feel like as humans, we're very good

at being like, "Okay, this chapter of my

life is over."

>> And we do it because labeling helps, but

it's like you went from being a toddler

Yes.

>> or an infant and then you became, you

know, a teen and then a young adult and

then an adult and then So, we have all

these labels and it almost feels like we

live our life that way of like, okay, I

was a student at university. If I went

to university and now I am a I have a

job and I'm an employee or an

entrepreneur, whatever it is. And labels

are useful. So I'm not going to say they

aren't. But what ends up happening is

you start labeling phases of your life,

which means now there isn't a yes and

it's an either or. So it's like I was an

actress, now I'm going to be an

academic. And it's like, well, no, I'm

an academic and an actress and a

whatever else. Yeah.

>> You know, and and I think that's what

it's been for me. It's like I know that

the people that know me best will say,

"Jay, I love you because we can talk

about spirituality. We can talk about

business and we can talk about

communication, media, art, and I love

you because we can do all those three

things in one day. Yes.

>> And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen.

Whereas if someone only said one of

those things, I'd feel so limited. And

what I've realized is

>> I'm now at a place where I've given

myself permission to be all of myself,

>> even if others don't give me permission

to be all of those things.

>> Yes.

>> Because Yeah. And how amazing to get to

that point where I realized for a long

time I was pushing for I need everyone

to understand me and I need them to

understand these decisions and I need

them to understand that I'm all of these

things. And I'm like but do you really

Emma? Do you actually really need them

to get it or is it enough that you get

it? You see it and understand it and

you're making it possible and giving

yourself permission to do that. And I

think once I kind of let go of like,

okay, it it matters way more that I

accept myself

>> then that I spend so much energy and

time trying to force other people to see

these things about me. And then

paradoxically, of course, once you let

go,

>> people start getting

which is which is funny.

>> Emma, how do you how do you see love

today?

>> God, what a great question.

H. Um,

how do I see love today? Oh, okay. I

think I have an answer for this. How

exciting. I was right there for I was

like to say, God, I hope I do. Am I that

deep? Yeah. Okay. So, um I think that

h we don't talk about love nearly enough

or I think we need to talk about it so

much more because

I had such a not a misunderstanding but

I think I had a very limited

understanding of it for a long time

which was that we see in Disney movies

and in Hollywood movies this idea that

like falling in love once it's sort of

happened to you it's like irreversible

you know like step into this portal that

you can't get out of anymore because

you've fallen in love. And actually, I I

think falling in love might be quite

easy to do in some ways. That's sort of

the easy bit. The hard part is finding

someone who actually wants to be in a

dance with you and be in some form of

partnership with you. And things like,

can you argue? Well, can you be is the

conflict that you have generative? And

can you make someone else feel safe?

Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean

like out of physical danger. I mean

like, can you either respond to a text

message quickly enough that doesn't send

the other person into like a complete

freef fall and or not pelt them with so

many that they feel completely

overwhelmed and flooded. And like that

kind of like compatibility and that kind

of willingness to be in this like is

this okay for you? Does this feel good

to you? This is how it feels for me. And

like there's like that constant back and

forth and that constant check-in is like

a a game of um check-in in a way of like

can you find someone who's willing to be

as vulnerable as it necessarily requires

I think to like figure out those micro

adjustments until you're sort of in some

kind of dance with someone else. And

that is a very different understanding

that I have come to of what love is than

I had. I mean like loving someone is so

much more complex than the projections

that we put on someone or even like just

lusting or having some small feeling for

someone else. But I just think that we

have such a black and white idea about

what love is supposed to be. And I wish

I'd understood more before I went into

battle. I do. I really, really do.

>> What do you think love is, Jay?

>> Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. You're flipping

this back, Emma. This is about you. It's

not about

>> This is a conversation.

>> I know. I just

>> Well, does any of what I've said

resonate?

>> It does. It does. It resonates a lot.

>> I'm on the right track, Jay. I need you

to tell me.

>> I think it resonates a lot. I I grew up

in a I grew up with a very film naive

Disney version of what love was. Like I

love that version of love.

>> I love the idea that

>> love was this really romantic, really

sweet

>> writing letters every day kind of love.

Like that that's the love I dreamed of

and love I thought of as a kid at least.

>> Yeah. And then,

you know, I think I

realized that you do all of that with

the first person you're with in your

teens and and you kind of think it's the

real thing, but then they're in a mood

every night for no reason and you're

just people pleasing and trying to

figure out what's going on and you think

it's all about making that person happy

and so you mold and you bend and you,

>> you know, sabotage parts of yourself.

And I realized very quickly that

>> that wasn't love. And I think

>> what's really interesting about love now

is that

>> marrying my wife who I've been with now

for 12 years and married for nine.

>> Wow.

>> And so it's the longest time I've ever

spent with anyone and also

>> the only person I've been with after I

left the monastery. And so there's been

a certain chapter of my life that I've

been with her for.

>> And I really feel she's taught me more

about love for two reasons. The first is

she doesn't subscribe to any of the

movie Disney versions of Love.

>> Wow. At all.

>> Oh my god. What education did she have?

Where can I get it?

>> Yeah. Literally. And and the other part

is that I think she's the only person

I've ever loved enough to be taught by.

>> Oh my god.

>> Which is like a really interesting part

of love that I think's missed. M

>> and I feel like love is the humility to

feel. It's humility on both parts

because the other person's not actively

teaching

and you're actively receiving.

>> Yes.

>> So it's this really strange dance

between it's almost like if you're

dancing.

>> There has to be a humility on both sides

because

>> it's not that one person leads and the

other person follows. It's the other

person's kind of like should we do this?

Should we try this? there's a anxiety

and a humility in requesting that and

the other person gets to choose to go

with it or not go and say no we're going

to go in this direction and that's

>> a great dance to watch and I feel like

with my wife

>> she's never directly taught me

>> but she's challenged me in ways that

>> if other people would have I might have

left.

>> Oh my god, how beautiful.

>> And so why am I staying? And then you go

okay I'm staying because there's love.

And so love is the ability to be taught

without teaching and

>> learning without

feeling like you're being led or misled.

And that for me has been a really

beautiful lesson. And if I just said

this to my wife out loud right now, she

would just laugh because she'd just find

it funny. And then and then she's Yeah.

She she also taught me how to love me

for who I was and not what I had.

Because I think

>> a lot of men go through this, at least

men that I'm friends with and that I've

spoken to, that

>> we want people to respect us for our

success.

>> Yes.

>> And rever us for our accomplishments.

It's how men have been adored since the

beginning of time for going out and

getting the food or going out there and

winning the battle or conquering a

nation. And that's what you were known

for. And so my wife's been with me since

before my career took off and I had any

success. And I think as I gained

success, I think my immaturity was to

want her to love me for that more. And

she never did. She just didn't do it.

>> Wow.

>> And it drove me crazy. And she didn't do

it in a rejecting way or in a

>> in a it just didn't make a difference to

her.

>> This isn't why I love you. And and it

took me a long time to wrap my head

around that and realize because you know

those are the times when you could start

liking other people who love you for

what you have achieved and what you have

built and all the rest of it. And I

think I just have so much respect for

her that

>> she never gave in on that.

>> Yeah. She never gave in and and she

helped me love myself for who I am. And

I think that's the point that I think I

would have if I had met someone else, I

would have valued myself for very

different reasons. and knowing you're

with someone who truly is with you

because of who you are and your

character and that's what they honor.

>> And and I think that word honor and

respect probably the last thing I'd say

I think we always say like love is

respect and based on respect but

>> I wrote a list of things that I

>> I tried to be clear with myself about

what it is I was really looking for and

I really want and one is someone that I

can learn from. So it's really

interesting that you said learning

without teaching, teaching without

learning and that kind of reciprocal

like I really want to be with someone

that I can learn some learn from and I

hope that yeah as you say has the

humility to be willing to learn from me.

But the other thing is I think it's why

I'm so obsessed with the musical musical

Hamilton and why so many people have

been. Like maybe this is it's so funny

that we're on on the purpose podcast,

but like are you with someone who cuz

obviously what you have with someone is

is wonderful, right? Like what you two

share together, but if you can be in

service of a vision that you both share

or at the very least are you willing to

honor and give dignity to the work of

the other person and whatever their

vision or mission is in this world. That

to me seems far more sustainable than

anything else. And so I guess my big

hope or wish would be that I met someone

who feels like what I want to do in the

world. Yes, that I'm important, but they

also feel that what I'm here to do is

important to them, too. And in some way

intersects with what they're here to do.

>> I couldn't agree more. It's exactly what

I was going to say.

>> Is it?

>> Yeah. that that I think the word respect

and relationship is thrown around a lot

but this is the deepest form of respect

where there's a famous quote that I

don't know who said it but there's a and

I would you know you could take the

genders out of it now but there's a

famous quote that says men marry women

hoping they'll never change

>> and women marry men hoping they can

change them and to me wanting someone to

never change or wanting to be able to

change someone are both signs of

disrespect

because

I think the greatest respect you can

have is to respect what this person

values in this moment and how that

evolves and that's their purpose, their

offering, their values.

>> And at no point are you trying to change

them. And I've I've talked about this

often where my wife and I I do this

exercise with couples when I'm working

with them, but I've also done it in our

relationship. And I ask people to rank

their top three priorities in order.

Wow.

>> And people do it privately and then they

share them.

>> Wow.

>> And so generally one person will put

themselves first, their partner second,

and then the kids third.

And the other person will put the kids

first, the partner second, and

themselves third. And the person who put

themselves third is always mad at the

person who put themselves first because

there's this friction of well wait a

minute how can you not put the kids

first

>> or how can you not put family first or

whatever it may be in your given

situation and the other person is like

well if I don't put myself first then

what can I give to you all and that that

kind of displays this dichotomy and this

belief we have around love means

complete sacrifice and love means

self-sabotage to some degree or love

means putting yourself aside and the

reality is actually no my goal is to

make sure that you live your purpose and

greatest vision of yourself

>> and your purpose is to help me do that.

When we both do that,

>> everything's poetry.

>> And my wife practiced that and she does

it naturally. And it's hard to do that

in a world that constantly reminds you

both that sometimes the other person

isn't where you are.

>> Or, you know, the idea of why haven't

you had kids yet? Or when are you going

to be in the same country for longer

than a month? or whatever they may be

because it doesn't fit into the norm of

what relationships look like.

>> And I was thinking about that with you

as well, like

>> you know, I know you you talked about

how getting asked the question, when are

you getting married

>> or why aren't you married yet?

>> Yes.

>> And that's something every woman's

hearing. What's your reaction when you

hear that?

>> I'm just so happy not to be divorced

yet. Like that sounds like a really

negative answer, but I just like I think

that we are we're being

pressured and forced into this

thing that like I believe is a kind of

miracle. I might never be worthy of it.

I hope it happens to me, but like I

don't feel entitled to it. like it will

either be part of my purpose here and my

destiny or it won't. And I think the way

we treat it as though well why haven't

you and this is something that has to

happen in this certain

time span and at this certain age in

this kind of way is like the least

romantic thing I can possibly think of.

Like truly, like if I had tried to get

married any point basically before about

a year ago, it would have been carnage.

I just didn't know myself well enough

yet. I didn't have a clear enough idea

of what my purpose, my vision, like how

I was going to be of service. I didn't

know where I really felt like I needed

to be. I think I have some of those

answers now. So when I meet someone, I

can say, "Hi, I'm Emma. This is what I

care about. This is where the people I

love the most live. This is where it's

meaningful for me to be in the world."

And then they can decide whether they

can see that there's a way that I can

serve what they're trying to do and they

can serve what I'm trying to do. But

before that, like they would have just

got like a very mixed signal. I mean,

there's some parts of me that have

stayed utterly consistent,

>> but there are some parts that like I was

really still teasing out and figuring

out. And I think it's such a violence

and it's such a cruelty on people and

especially young people I think to make

and especially women to make them feel

like they have no worth or like they

haven't succeeded yet in life because

they haven't forced to its culmination

something that I just don't think can or

should ever be

forced. It's something that like

honestly I feel like I've had to earn.

I've had to work for to be in a place

where I feel like I can look someone in

the eye and be able to tell them who I

am and to have some some idea and it

will change and grow of of what I want

and what I'm here to do. That takes

work. Like I have like

really sat with myself in a lot of

discomfort and asked myself a lot of

very difficult questions to be at that

point. It hasn't happened to me yet.

>> I do think everyone's worthy of love,

but I like I I and and I don't think

that's what you're saying either. Yeah,

>> I think so.

>> I guess maybe like partnership or

marriage I guess is what we're both

saying is like almost a different game.

Like it's it's almost a different

playing field actually. Like actually

co-joining and like properly sharing

your life with someone and being in

partnership with them

>> seems like it's its own thing.

>> It is. It takes so much work and it

takes so much adjustment and adapting

more than compromising and

sacrificing.

>> There's so much flexibility. There's so

much

>> allowing. It's it's so different at

different times. Like sometimes patience

looks like being by that person's side

and saying nothing.

>> And sometimes patience means being

halfway across the world

>> and not communicating. And sometimes

patience looks like uh talking and

listening. Like you know it's it's

patience doesn't look like one thing

over a a lifespan. And

>> there are parts of my wife that have

stayed exactly the same in 12 years. And

there are parts that have completely

changed. And I have a choice every time

that happens to learn to love the new

>> or not. And that's a choice I have to

make and she has to make as well. And so

there's so much constant choosing and

constant evolving that it's very easy to

just

>> it's very easy to be like, "Yeah, I

chose them the day we got married." And

people always ask me, I'm like, I don't

think I even knew who my wife was the

day we got married. Like now when I

think about it, like I loved her, but

I had no idea. And and that's what it

should feel like. I don't think if I was

here to say like, yeah, the wedding the

wedding day was one of the best days of

my life, but it's not the day I loved my

wife the most.

>> Yeah.

>> Because I didn't really even know what I

was getting myself into.

>> That's amazing. I was thinking recently

about trust and telling the truth

>> and I realized the scary crazy thing

about it seems to me about intimacy is

that it seems to be conditional on your

ability to like keep telling the truth

>> and perhaps even revealing deeper and

deeper and deeper truths

at the risk that that truth might mean

that that person might not continue to

choose you. Yes.

>> So, even though you've been in this

relationship for 12 years, like every

day you have to choose to risk it all if

you want there to be continued intimacy

by continuing to tell your truth to this

other person. And that seems so

courageous to me. Like, in order for

there to be genuine connection and

closeness, you have to be willing to

risk it all sometimes or like probably

almost constantly. And that it seems

like it takes so much courage because we

don't like change. We don't want things

to change. So you also want a

relationship that's alive and still

living and breathing and not some like

dead thing.

>> Yeah. So well said. And and what you're

saying is like that feeling of when

you're not actually being truthful

consistently, that's when we feel people

have had big changes in their life.

Because if you had the consistent

truthfulness, the change felt more

smooth and gradual.

>> Whereas when the change came like, you

know, a wrecking ball where I had this

feeling and I'm just telling you it,

>> it's because I didn't tell you about all

the little the little incremental

changes and sometimes you don't know

it's even happening. So it's not your

fault or this is not something that you

can say has to be the case. But I think

that's why being more truthful, more

honest,

>> more regularly and consistently allows

for the change to feel more gradual.

It's almost like going back to your

dance analogy, like if you're about to

throw someone up in the air and catch

them.

>> Yes.

>> There has to have been a touch or a

preparation.

>> Yes.

>> Before someone just grabs hold of you

and throws you in the air. And it's

like,

>> well, I would have liked a warning.

>> Yes. Uh and and that's why your analogy

is so good because it's

>> you would throw someone up in a dance at

some point if you were both talented and

gifted enough, but there would have been

a preparation. There would have been a

nod, there would have been a look, a

feel, a touch or

>> you know to set that up. And

>> yes,

>> like one of the hardest questions you

talked about asking answer asking

yourself difficult questions and I want

to ask you something about that. But one

thing I've said to my wife is if you

ever fall out of love with me, please

tell me because I don't want to live a

day without love. I'm really confident

about the fact that I'm worthy of love

and that I want to experience love in my

life.

>> If you ever fall out of me, just tell me

it's okay

>> because I don't have the desire

>> to stay somewhere for any other reason.

And it sounds risky saying that and

extreme, but to me it's a greater risk

to have spent 10 extra years with

someone and then they tell me, "Yeah, I

haven't really loved you for the last 5,

10 years." And then I'm like, "Wait a

minute. I've lived without love for 10

years of my life and I don't want to be

in that place because I've seen people

go through that and and not be happy."

And so

>> it does come with a humility and a

>> openness to have very difficult

conversations.

>> Uh and not to force something that, oh,

it's been going great for 12 years. It

has to. It should do. It must do. And

it's like, well, maybe no. Like, yes, if

it does, it's great.

>> And it is right now, but

>> why shouldn't right now be a prediction

for how you feel in 15 years

>> with everything else that's going to

change?

>> I think if I knew I really couldn't meet

the needs of someone and they couldn't

meet my needs, if I really couldn't make

them happy and they couldn't make me

happy, like forcing them to stay in that

situation, surely that like makes love

impossible. like negates. So I I totally

get what you're saying and my mom said

this thing to me which was like you want

to be with someone because you want them

not because you need them. And I think

maybe another reason why

I didn't get married younger is because

I think maybe I would have married

someone not knowing who I was and I

would have needed them, maybe not wanted

them. And I think now I have a life

that's whole and complete as it is. And

I would be making a choice from a place

of I just want you and I don't need you,

but I just want you. And I don't

>> I don't think I was that woman five

years ago.

>> Yeah. I love that. And and and there's

so much so much to be said for

attracting from a place of peace

>> because you know what peace feels like.

M

>> and so then anyone or anything that

comes into your life

>> and what feeling satisfied feels like

>> satisfied is probably even a better word

and that feeling of I know what it feels

like to be satisfied and so I now know

whether someone makes me more satisfied

or less.

>> I know what my baseline is. If you don't

know what your baseline happy is then

how do you you've got no idea of knowing

what's going on at all.

>> And that's not a feeling of being

complete or having it all figured out.

>> It's like I know what satisfy is a great

word. It's like I know what it feels

like to

>> be at peace with myself or satisfied

with myself. And

>> now everyone can show me

>> Yes.

>> where that pendulum swings.

>> Yes.

>> Um, one thing you said which I which

really resonated with me is that you've

had to ask yourself so many hard

questions

>> to do the work. And I wanted to ask you

what what's one of the hardest questions

you've ever had to ask yourself if you

could recall. Well, the first one that

comes to mind and then maybe I'll dig

for a deep or a different one is like to

have to admit to myself or ask myself

the question of like you right now have

the career and the life that like looks

like the dream, but are you really

happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? Are

you really happy? Like is this really

what you want? And to be at that point

and like realize and have to admit to

myself that I wasn't and I didn't was

one of the scariest things I've ever had

to do because you know I basically had

to ask myself on a daily basis like I

felt like I was crazy and walking away

from something without knowing what

you're walking towards

>> was

not having the answers but leaving

something that was con that the world

considered to be such of such high

value, such a high value kind of moment

in my professional life and career. I

think that was a real sitting with that

was a real moment of reckoning of like

can you tell yourself the truth? Can you

live with your truth? Can you accept the

fact that for most other people your

truth is pretty confusing and

unpalatable?

That was definitely

a hard moment of sitting more recently

because I've been being my own partner

asking myself, are you really living

your values, things that you preach? Are

you actually aligned?

And actually looking at some spaces in

my life where I was like, no, not

at all. I'm actually not doing what I

talk about. And I need to like create

some sort of urgency or a deadline for

that so that I make sure that I'm a

person of integrity. I purport to be

someone that cares about the world and

about the planet and sustainability. And

you know, there are some things I was

doing. Was it enough by my own

standards? Not by anyone else's. Just by

my own. Probably not. But what's nice is

is I actually have the time now to be

like, "Okay, what are you going to do

about it?" Like, "Get get on with it."

And like,

>> but those those are Thank you for those.

Those those are great questions.

>> Really really great questions and

>> so hard for so many reasons. Especially

when you talked about like when you're

stepping away from and and stepping

toward Did you have people in the

industry or like people that you could

talk to that felt the same way? Like did

you have co-stars or friends or

>> No.

>> Wow. I no I don't know anyone else. I'll

never say that I I quit acting. I'll

always be an actor. I'm still open to

doing it again. It's but I certainly

made a decision to to take time to

figure out to not know and to you know I

had like this whole

disassembling the structure that's

needed to carry the loads. And it's like

there's an agent and a publicist and a

manager and a a personal assistant and

there's all these people and lives who

are intertwined with mine and navigating

and caring for and negotiating that with

people as well was like was really

tricky and also I was just bloody

terrified. Like I think there's a kind

of infantilization

that can happen when you work as much as

I did and a kind of loss of independence

that means that you're like, "Oh my god,

can I even do my life if I don't have

this like army of people who are like

helping me do the most menial and basic

of things? Like can I actually like do

this stuff myself?" And and I don't even

say that in terms of like capability,

but like just from the place of like

it's difficult for me to walk down the

street sometimes. So if I'm going to

start to take on truly the

responsibility of most of my life

myself, like what's that going to be

like? Like can I really do that stuff? I

think fame makes you feel like you can't

do things for yourself in a way that can

really disempower you and and remove

your confidence and autonomy as a human

being. That's That's really disabling.

>> And for everyone who's who's wondering,

yeah, Emma called me up and I was like,

"So, should I speak to your publicist?"

She's like, "Nope, I am my publicist."

Like I was like, "Do I need to check

with the manager?" "Nope, I am my

manager." And like that was literally

the conversation we had. She booked this

podcast herself.

>> There was no booker. There was no

booking system. There was no There was

no reach out.

>> No,

>> it was literally Emma doing it herself,

which is proof you are living your

values.

>> Thank you.

>> And and you are aligned with what you're

saying. I wanted people to know that.

>> Thank you. I appreciate that. What's so

funny though now is like because I do

everything myself, there's like a 50%

chance you would have not thought it was

me or like sometimes when I reach out to

people,

>> I had plenty of moments I had to double

take. I was like, "Wait a minute." Like

>> verified verified amount of followers

who you follow.

>> People think it's not me. And so like I

have a 50/50 rate of people actually

just like not responding to me because

they don't think I'd be reaching out

myself. That that's real. I I had to do

a second date. I think I rejected this

morning. Like, wait a minute.

>> Was it definitely her?

>> Is it definitely her or am I going to

turn up in some like, you know, catfish

situation?

>> No, it's wild.

>> Yeah, it's Yeah,

>> oddly sometimes it takes more work me

trying to do things myself than through

the system.

>> Yeah, I know. You did a great job. But

that that Yeah, those those hard

questions that you asked yourself. I

mean, what was it

>> that gave you courage

>> to walk a path where you don't know the

next three steps when you have a entire

career lined up on the other side?

>> You have an amazing career. You've every

movie you've been in has been magical

and amazing. Like it's when you look at

your portfolio of

>> choices like they're all brilliant

performances. They're great films.

They're

>> and you only would have more of that.

So, it's also not like you're leaving a

career that's kind of had its you know

what I It's it's it's at a place where

no businessoriented person could imagine

why.

>> And so what gives you courage when one

side is so clear and one side is not

clear at all?

>> Again, I'm going to tell the honest

version of this story. I'd love to tell

you

that it was like

this incredible courage and

determination I have inside of me. And

yes, there's there's part of that. Not

going to like completely erase my role

in all of this, but I think a big part

was that it was coming to a point with

my

health and nervous system where I was

starting to hit a point of not no

return, but like it's interesting. I

eat well. I do yoga. I do medit. I do

all the things right, but I think I was

using those as a way of mitigating

how much stress I was under as opposed

to actually what those things are really

for

are compasses and points towards our

truth. And I

>> so was

>> I was using them

as a way of like bolstering

myself and allowing myself to continue

down a path that actually was kind of

wrecking me. And I think it was just

like my immune system

couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven

or eight packets of an antibiotic every

year because my immune system was so low

that I would just constantly be getting

a I just constantly be getting sick and

a sinus infection and whatever else.

Like

>> I have no idea.

>> My body just started being like no. I

went from being someone who I would say

I still handle stress and pressure well

and in the moment I could always do it,

but the cost afterwards was starting to

get more and more serious to the point

where it was like I'd always turned down

or actually I remember I was in my early

20ies when a publicist first offered me

a beta blocker. I was nervous before I

could carpet and it's the only other

time I ever took anything and I was fine

for the two hours after I took it and

then I got back to the room and when my

feelings came back to me I was like over

wrought with grief and feeling of of

having blocked it. And so I' i'd always

and after that I I never allowed anyone

to give me anything again even though I

was offered things multiple times and

doctors wanting to give me things for

jet lag and for sleep and for nerves and

oh everyone takes it this is you know

there's no shame in this or whatever but

I just I felt like in order to keep

going I was going to have to make a

decision of like are you okay with being

lowle level

unwell and medicated essentially and I

just knew that wasn't a choice for me.

So in a way I have my body to thank

because my body just I didn't want to

ignore my body anymore. And it didn't

matter how many silent retreats I went

on or how much yoga I did or like what

new thing I did to try and take care of

myself. It my body was done. And

that was then I think when I went away

and found a relationship with myself and

my practice and and just having trust

and faith in a way that I never had

before. And I started listening more

carefully to like these little whispers

of like, oh, like maybe this should be

the thing you do or like even coming and

doing this of like I think you should go

and do this podcast. Just listening to

myself for clues basically and listening

to the universe, whatever that means.

But I never had that before. I never had

I never knew how to listen for those

things before. I truly went away and had

nothing for a while. So that was

probably the the best result of of all

of that.

>> Yeah. And I and I think it still takes

so much courage because

>> it does even though you didn't see it

that way and you

>> may not have noticed it, it still takes

so much courage to listen to your body

>> because it is easy to keep medicating in

all the ways to to break it anyway.

>> Yeah. and to to push it to the edges and

the limits of its ability

and because you're so addicted or

intoxicated by the success or whatever

it may be.

>> I guess the courageous part was just

knowing I didn't want to numb out. That

was the point at which it got too big of

a cost cuz I was like, okay, if I feel

like I need to be

I'm at the point where the price is too

high now.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I loved what you said about

when they're meant to be compassed to

our truth and not like this band-aid

pacification of and

>> I've been highly really effectively

using those band-aids. They will carry

you far. Like I had a lot of practice.

>> I think that's how they're presented now

too. Like it's become this and and

that's why when you said that I think

you

>> it's almost like I'm trying to think of

a good metaphor but the one that's

coming to my mind. It's almost like

driving to the grocery store in a sports

car. And it's like a sports car is made

for this high-speed track. Like that's

what it's for.

>> Y,

>> but you're using it just to drive 25

miles an hour.

>> Yeah.

>> To the grocery store. And it's like, no,

it's it has so much more capability and

>> ability to take you somewhere

>> phenomenally, but you're using it for a

really simple basic task.

>> Not going to lie, though. I remember

when I did my first vapassa

and sat long enough and I went to my

teacher and I was like

what have I done?

>> Go on tell me about this. Go on.

>> What have I done?

>> What do you mean? In what way?

>> I I because in a way it was almost like

I realized once you start paying

attention to your truth, it's very

difficult to go back. And in some way it

felt like I was like, "Oh my god, I

don't know if I like this.

>> I don't know if I like this.

>> So good.

>> I I I maybe I want to go back." And once

you step through it, you you kind of

can't go back. And I remember him

looking at me calmly and saying,

>> "Could you even go back now even if you

wanted to?" And I was like, "I guess

not. I guess this is the path I've

chosen to walk." And

to some degree, in the same way that

getting cast as Hermione and like making

my piece with the way that that changed

my life were my marching orders, I think

trusting that

>> is

that's that's all I can do at this

point. I'm just holding on for dear

life.

>> Yeah. It's like the mafia. Once you're

in, you know too much

like

>> I'll I'll never forget that moment. I'll

never forget that moment. I was like,

"Oh no, this is undoable now, isn't it?"

And he was like, "Kind of." Yeah. I was

like, "Oh no, it's so uncomfortable.

It's so uncomfortable being honest with

myself." And then I have to be honest

with other people as well. This is a

nightmare. Why did I do this? Why am I

here? Oh god, what's

>> I'm just imagining you on the retreat

like coming out of it and just having

that reaction.

>> Yeah,

>> it's so funny. So good. That that needs

to get added to the play. That moment

that moment needs to be added to the

play.

>> Actually, yeah, I wrote something I

wrote something about my doing the doing

the 10day of pastor for the first

>> for the first time cuz my god that is

such a it's such a roller coaster. Yeah.

It's such a roller coaster.

>> Anything you want to share about?

>> Sure. Yeah. I don't want to bore you to

death, but I mean I think what was funny

was like I I have this picture that I

drew of day

>> day two

>> and it's like green and pink and there's

butterflies on it and it literally says

I think it says this is so embarrassing.

It says I am beautiful.

So embarrassing.

>> I just felt like in I was like oh my god

this is blows. I was like riding this

wave of like meditation ecstasy

basically. Whatever dopamine hit I was

getting from that was wild. I just felt

unbelievable.

And then I surfed that wave straight

into some kind of like brick wall of oh

my god like all the things in life that

you think are outside of you actually

live inside you. And so even when you're

like in this beautiful place on this

gorgeous meditation retreat with all of

these like wonderful enlightened people,

everything starts to drive you crazy.

And even the like salt shaker and the

pepper pot in front of you, you start to

take on the shapes of your real life and

you realize that your mind just starts

creating all this drama for you even

though there's nothing going on

literally. And it was just it was such a

wild experience to kind of sit there and

be like, "Oh my god. I'm the one

creating all of my own drama. This is a

nightmare. It's me. It's me. I'm the

problem." And um I was like, "I can't

stay here. I can't do this. This is way

too hard. Living with myself and my own

thoughts is going to dry. This is

unbearable. I I can't do this." That was

a really big learning and one I have to

remember all the time is like I as a

perfectionist which again is a is a kind

of violence on yourself. I would try to

like shame and blame myself into and

like kind of shake myself up and and

give myself these kinds of like talkings

to to make myself do stuff. And

sometimes to be honest with you, they

work in the short term and in the long

term they fail you miserably. Like they

just do not work. I the only way that I

have learned to change my patterns

to show up for myself better to change

in the ways I want to change and grow is

to be loving towards myself.

So getting to be in the room with that

person at that moment was a massive

gift.

>> It's amazing. I love it how someone that

you can attend a class with can become

such a big teacher for you when you

allow it to be and

>> yeah,

>> you know, someone who wasn't the leader

or the guide of the group can can have

such an impact on you. Did you want to

speaking about love, did you want to

share the

>> is it the practice that you went through

recently with is that what you ring?

>> Yeah, the ring.

>> Yeah. Oh my god, that's sweet of you to

remember. I mentioned that.

>> Um yeah, I um I guess having gone

through this odyssey which has been the

last I guess 7 years I was like okay I

kind of feel like I've got to a place

and this will continue forever where I

want to celebrate where I ended up after

I kind of

left land it felt like and yeah I I did

a ritual with or like I guess just a day

of celebrating with my friends and

chosen family and they each bought me

this ring which has 22 petals on it and

each of them bought one and I've just

never owned anything so valuable in my

life because I I to me it represents the

life that I've built which was the one

that I really wanted which was one that

was made up of community and my roots

and

faith and trust. And in some funny way,

it signals to me that even though I have

no outward

signs of my success, save for this crazy

onewoman play I've written, I don't even

have my degree yet. And it signals to me

that for me, I achieved what I wanted to

achieve for myself.

Wow.

>> So, that's pretty cool. And I love that

every time I look down at my finger, I

can like see all of the faces of the

people who bought it for me.

>> You're amazing at holding space. You're

so kind. The amount of people who've

probably sat in this chair and been as

emotional as I have. And you don't turn

away. It's amazing.

>> It's easy with you.

>> That's very kind. Thank you. It's really

easy because it's really heartfelt and

you've shared so much of me before today

and today that I felt like you shared

you created that space for me to sit

with you before today and today.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> What makes a real friend? So you said

you had 22 22

>> 22 Yeah.

>> 22 friends. What what what defines a

good friend for you?

>> Oh my god. For me, I've never killed

anyone in my life and I have no

intention of killing anyone. But like is

the person who you can call when you're

like that would help you carry the dead

body across the floor. You know what I

mean? You're like the person you call me

like I think I've done this thing

and I need you to like either tell me

I'm crazy or tell me I'm not crazy or

tell me the truth or help me fix it or I

don't know that I think it's like the

people that God. the people that you

just like do not have to have hes and

graces with and who you can just be like

this just happened and it's such a

disaster and yeah and I I don't know

people I think also who

can handle your truths your real truths

and vulnerabilities

like they're sacred and with care. I

think that's been very important for me

because I think maybe part of my bravado

is I'll I'll make a joke of or I'll be

brave about things I don't feel very

brave about and it takes someone who

knows me quite well to go she's making a

joke about this. She's like actually

>> dying inside and I kind of know that and

like I'm going to hold her through it.

>> Yeah. I think real friends are the ones

when you're in a really tight corner and

not just that we'll like show up

begrudgingly but be like what are we

dealing with today and like maybe we'll

enjoy that or see that as like an honor

and a and a privilege actually. I think

that's been a big learning for me. And

it's an honor and a gift when someone

asks you for help or when they need you.

And I think I used to feel really

embarrassed about needing anything from

anyone or asking for help. I used to see

it as like a great shame, like a

something I was really embarrassed to

do. And now I see it as like I guess

like knowing how I feel when someone

asks me for help that I really love. and

how amazing it feels to be able to be

there for someone else. I try to remind

myself that when I'm feeling like I

couldn't possibly burden someone else

with something. I remind myself and I do

remember how good it felt that someone

like asked you to show up for them and

that you got to be there for them at

their worst or darkest.

And so I think coming to understand

like I think I also confused

codependency or like I don't know I I

didn't we are so interdependent as a

species and like we we there's no shame

in in

>> needing and wanting

>> other people. I didn't I didn't

understand. I I didn't understand. And I

do Yeah.

>> I love the answer. I love how it started

as if I ever kill someone.

>> Wish I would. I swear. And I haven't. I

won't.

>> So good. It's so good. It's so funny.

It's like a I I did not expect you to

say that. It was so good. So surprising.

I love it. But no, it's so it's so true.

Like when I when I left the monastery

and even though I was with my wife and

we go into relationship and we're

dating, I used to always feel like I

didn't I always I had this false mindset

because of

>> my immaturity and understand what being

a monk was.

>> Yeah.

>> In that it was in this independent way,

>> right,

>> of not needing or wanting anyone and

that we were in a relationship and it

was great, but like that wasn't and I

held that immaturity and I probably

verbalized it to her too many times for

too long in the beginning of our

relationship. I have no idea why she

stayed. But it's uh it took recently. It

was we this was so recent. This was like

maybe a couple of months ago. Well, I

realized that I shouldn't have said that

years ago, but then a couple of months

ago, my wife said to me, she goes,

"You're my calm. Like, you calm my

nervous system."

>> And I was like, "You're my joy. Like,

you bring joy to every part of my life."

And it was like that exchange was so

needed and so powerful

>> after having for so long feeling like,

"Oh, I have everything I need anyway."

And I do.

I genuinely believe that. But

>> it's what you said is that we're inter

interdependent for a reason.

>> Yes. We our wife make adds so much. It's

like saying I don't need salt added on

to this meal. And like the meal is

great. And it's like I don't need any

more salt. And it's like well no if you

add a little bit of salt it would make

it a bit better. Way better.

>> Way better. And it's like and and we

kind of live in that life of like I

don't want to add anything to this. And

it's it's almost a defense mechanism

>> because we're so scared that there may

not be someone to add.

>> Oh my god. I think

>> and I've lived there. So I that yeah

that resonated very strongly.

>> I think that was the one of the other

gifts actually of getting to a point

where cuz I used to be this like I'm so

tough and independent and I can do

anything person and being at the point

where I was like h I actually think

I'm like not okay. and my body forcing

me to ask other people for help was the

biggest gift of my life because it

brought me so much closer to other

people. And I learned that not only is

it not a burden, it's genuinely

yeah, a privilege and a gift sometimes

to to have someone ask you that ask you

that question or like be honest about

the ways that they need you. And it's

crazy how long it takes to learn these

things.

>> Yeah, absolutely. You you've done so

much inner work and self work. I'm I'm

wondering what's what's the work you've

been avoiding? What's the work you've

been putting off?

>> Wow. If there is any

>> I think it's probably something around

now

tying it all together. M

>> I think in some ways me being here today

is me trying to do the piece I've been

avoiding maybe which is like okay you

know you want to show up as a full

integrated whole self and

not compartmentalize and split and

fragment yourself in a way that keeps

you safe. And that compartmentalization

did keep me safe and felt very necessary

for a long time because I was trying to

keep some walls up where I could nurture

myself and learn and grow and then be

ready to share those pieces. But I think

it's probably figuring out

how to avoid the pieces that I know

aren't good for me and that are

genuinely just toxic.

But to

yeah have the courage to show up now in

whatever form that is and

trust again whether that's a person or

it's making something or it's kind of

okay. Have you learned enough that you

can integrate and and share now that

you've done this in a work on your own?

>> Yeah, that that feels that resonates.

>> Okay, good.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's hard it's hard to it's

hard to verbalize.

It's almost like it is that you've been

private for so long.

>> Yeah.

>> And you've been working in private on

>> Yes. your fascinations, your

curiosities, your friends, your inner

work, and then to actually come out and

talk about

>> Yes.

>> what that period has been like publicly.

>> Yeah. is is something you can keep

pushing off and and

>> and maybe the how that ties into

partnership is that I've realized

actually that some of the people I've

been attracting

on the dating front think they're dating

some previous version of me who I'm who

still exists in some ways but who isn't

actually

who I am now. And I realized I was like,

"Oh, like I'm still getting sent people

who like

are seeing someone who was part of the

picture but but not the whole picture."

And

it's starting to feel uncomfortable

to not feel like I'm telling this part

of the story, if that makes sense.

>> It's even hard for you to be like,

"Well, these are the parts that are

still there and these are like it's

>> not dedactic process of like

>> No,

>> it's not an equation where you can go,

well, these are the parts that I've

kept. These are the parts that are not

like it doesn't work like that.

>> No, it doesn't work like that. It

doesn't work like that. But I'm still

getting requests that want to drag me a

little bit more into

a version of myself who was great and

she was doing great stuff. But I think

there's a part of me now that really

feels like being able to speak to you

one-on-one in this kind of setting as

opposed to what I used to do, which

would be an enormous audience and

there'd be like 300 people there. And

like of course there's intimacy you can

find in a room like that, but like the

truth is

it's really difficult to find the kind

of depth and the kind of connections

that I know are the ones that nourish me

personally. And that's it's different

for everyone, but that just aren't

allowing me to have the thing that I

know is the real thing that I'm actually

seeking. And what I used to go into lots

of other environments seeking and

thinking I'd be able to get and keep and

just not not being able to find.

Emma, something I wanted to ask you

about that's

difficult and challenging because it's

something you spoke about earlier as to

being such a big part of your life, an

important part of your life, but

recently

there's been

so many conversations and comments

directly from JK Rowling, whether it's

her saying she'd never forgive you for

your views or the fact that when she was

asked what ruins the movies for her, she

named yourself and some of your

co-stars. And I imagine that's an

extremely difficult thing when you've

been a part of someone's world, when

you've felt connected to their work and

then for it now to kind of be a full 180

and for someone to publicly say these

things that can be quite extremely

hurtful actually.

How do you think about that?

I really don't believe that by

having had that experience and holding

the love and support and views that I

have mean that I can't and don't

treasure Joe and the person that I

that I had personal experiences with.

I will never believe that one negates

the other and that my experience of that

person

I don't get to keep and cherish.

I to come back to our earlier thing like

I just don't think these things are

either or. I think

it's my deepest wish that

I I hope people who don't agree with my

opinion will love me and I hope I can

keep loving people who I don't

necessarily share the same opinion with.

And I think that's a very very important

way for me that I need to be able to

move through life. M

>> I just really I guess I to circle back

around I really do believe in

having conversations and that those are

really important and that

I don't know

I guess where I've landed is

it's not so much what we say or what we

believe

but very often how we say it. That's

really important and that's really

frustrating and not what you want to

hear when you're really angry and upset

with someone.

Um,

but I don't know. I just see this world

right now where we seem to be

giving permission for this kind of like

throwing out of people or that people

are disposable. And I I just think

that's

I will always think that's wrong. I I

always I just believe that

no one is no no one's disposable.

>> Mhm.

>> And everyone as far as possible,

whatever the conversation is, should and

can be treated with

at the very least dignity and respect. M

>> thank you for challenging us and pushing

us. Yeah, it takes a lot to

>> I think that's what we're all being

challenged to do is try and hold two

truths at once. And yes,

>> those two truths don't have to be

complimentary, but they they can stand

at the same time. Yeah.

>> I think the thing I'm most upset about

is that a conversation was never made

possible.

>> So you remain open for that dialogue.

>> Yeah. And I always will. I believe in

that. I believe in that completely.

Um

I believe in that completely.

>> I just don't Yeah. I just don't want to

say anything that like continues to

weaponize a really like toxic debate and

conversation,

>> which is

maybe why I I don't well it is why I

don't comment or like continue to

comment. Not because I don't care about

her or about the issue, but because I

just the way that the conversation is

being had

>> feels really painful to me.

And so

that's why that's why that decision.

>> Yeah, I really I really appreciate that

mindset and

deeply deeply feel like

if people are challenged to go there

themselves like it takes a lot to think

that way and feel that way. Yes,

>> it's it's what it's what healing really

requires across, you know, around the

world. And I can't imagine how many

young people who look up to you and

people who look up to you will feel the

same way to

>> to recognize that that's how we engage.

That's what we look for. We

>> It's It's not that we're trying to make

everything pretty and perfect.

>> No, it's that we're willing to engage in

an uncomfortable conversation.

>> Yes. her kindness and words of

encouragement and that steadfastness

that

and also honestly just as a young woman

to for her to have written that

character created that world

given me an opportunity which to be

honest barely exists in the history of

English literature

um you know

how can I there's just no world in which

I could ever cancel her out or cancel

that out

for anything. It It has to remain true.

It is true. And this is where this like

holding of these I just don't know what

else to do other than hold these two

seemingly incompatible things together

at the same time and just

hope maybe they will one day resolve or

like cojoin themselves and maybe accept

that they never will but that they can

both still be true and

I can love her. I can know she loved me.

I can be grateful to her. I can know the

things that she said are true and

there can be this whole other thing and

my job feels like to just hold just to

hold all of it. But the bigger thing is

just

what she's done will never be taken away

from me.

>> Thanks for setting such a powerful

example. Thank

>> you. Yeah,

>> that beautiful Fcott Fitzgerald quote

that

>> the sign of a first rate intelligence is

the ability to hold two opposing ideas

at the same time and still retain the

ability to function. He goes on to say,

one should therefore be able to see that

the world is hopeless but still be

determined to make it otherwise.

>> And it's like that's

>> that's Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow.

He ran deeper than I knew.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. T.

>> Wow. That's No one ever part.

>> That's incredible.

>> Yeah, it's one of my favorite.

>> Wow. Well done you for remembering that

second part. Wow. You've made me like

Fitzgerald a lot. I mean, I liked him,

don't get me wrong. Like

>> Yeah. Yeah. I've I to me it's my it's

one of my favorite ideas.

>> It's so good.

>> Yeah. It's so good.

>> That's so good.

>> Yeah. Emma, for someone who has tried to

stay out of the public eye,

>> Yeah. You've still been vocal about

causes you believe in things that you

stand for.

>> Yes.

>> And that always seems to get attention

and reaction. Mhm.

>> And so when you shared online your

solidarity for Palestine,

>> the former Israeli UN ambassador Danny

Danon called you an anti-semite and and

his tweet said 10 points from Gryffindor

for being an anti-semite.

>> Mhm.

>> What goes through your mind when you you

see that?

>> This happened um this happened a few

years ago now.

>> Yeah. I think what concerned me at the

time was the way that that label was

being used.

And I think even now

I see that playing out

where we aren't people don't feel like

they can talk about

what's happening safely.

this duality created where we don't seem

able to care about the victims of

terrorism

and care about the genocide that's

happening in Palestine at the same time.

And both things have to be allowed to be

true.

You have to be allowed to care about

50,000 civilians dying, 17,000 of which

are children. and care deeply

about

the victims of this awful terrorist

attack.

>> I appreciate you sharing that and

yeah, it it seems like that belief

system you have

>> in Yes. and and this and and together it

kind of runs through so many

>> Yeah.

>> areas of your life.

>> Yeah. It it

>> personal and beyond.

>> Yes. I think that's I think that's true.

I think that's true. I hope that you've

felt you've been able to share the parts

of yourself and the version of yourself

that you wanted to and intended to.

>> I hope so. I feel very hot and I feel

very hot and uh I feel a little bit like

is this room even real? Like are we is

this like a god rar play where we're

like in some sort of existential room

that doesn't exist?

>> In a second all the drop.

>> Honestly, I feel a little bit like that.

But as long as this was real and these

are these four walls are actually here,

then yes, I do feel that way. And um I

or like I've done everything I can in a

context that's still I can still see

cameras and lights and I know there's

>> a person behind me, but I feel to the

extent to which I I can humanly do that

I've shown up for myself and

for you in a way and the invitation that

this podcast is and the work that you do

in the world, I've answered that

invitation. So, I'm feel

>> I feel good about that.

>> And I've got I know it's a bit hot, but

I've got a couple of questions I want to

end on. We end on with every episode.

>> Yes.

>> Um these are your final five. They have

to be answered in one word to one

sentence maximum, but

>> I will probably ignore that rule as I

always do.

>> Amazing.

>> So, question number one, okay, is um we

asked these to everyone who's ever been

on the show. What is the best advice

you've ever heard or received?

I'm going to cheat slightly

if you'll allow it.

>> Yeah.

>> I read Emergent Strategy by Adrian Marie

Brown. It was given to me as a gift by

my friend Amarie for my 30th birthday.

And I think that

being a good pious Protestant English

girl, I really believed that if I worked

hard enough and if I was kind of saintly

enough that someone would see my good

deeds and all of my hard work and like

give me the sticker, you know, give me

the like give me the star. And so a kind

of martyrdom was part of my sort of I

understood was important in my and I

think reading her book and reading

about

pleasure activism which is sort of the

idea that like

anything that you need to s that you

want to sustain eg justice eg

You need it to be easy and you need it

to be pleasurable in a way because

that's what's going to mean that you'll

be able to do it for a long time.

>> Part of my burnout was that I wasn't

prioritizing

pleasure and joy as the kind of like

underpinning for even some of the the

harder, more somber,

more cerebral things that I was doing.

And

I think

>> that's such a great answer. changed my

life. And I think we also have a model

particularly within activism and um in

lots of spaces but like this kind of

sole individual charismatic leader and I

like you you know I my heroes always

Martin Luther King and Gandhi and you

just saw this sort of like solitary

person that was doing that and I think

if I could go back and do anything

differently it would be that when I

embarked on some of the public activism

that I did. I wouldn't go in the way I

did. I would go in with what I have now,

which is not just like an activist

community. Like I have friends who can

give me feedback and who I can talk to

and who I feel that I'm not doing the

work alone solo. However that might

look. Yeah. I guess heroicism and and

martyrdom the way the way that it was

looked maybe. I just don't believe

that's how we'll get the job done

anymore. Anything anything good will get

done.

>> So I think that book and I think that

idea that revolutionized my approach.

>> I love that. Yeah, that's a great

answer. It's beautiful. I want to read

that book now.

>> I haven't read it.

>> You have to. You have to have her on the

podcast.

>> Yeah, I should. Yeah, absolutely. Uh

question number two. What is the worst

advice you've ever heard or received?

>> Oh,

>> so much.

>> How long have you got?

>> God, mostly just like I think a lot of

stuff around toughen up, bottle it up.

>> Um,

>> deal with that later, you know, just

like subtle versions of like, well,

maybe tell the truth, but just not all

of it. Just like maybe just like tell

like a little bit of it, but not like

the whole thing, you know? Cuz like the

truth is the problem with like telling

three quarters of the truth is that then

you're sort of in this like constant

>> peeling and unpeeling of yourself where

you sort of like you're sort of trying

to do it but you're not quite doing it.

And I don't know I think a lot of advice

around that. Also anyone that tells you

not to do what you love

terrible advice doing what you love will

lead you where you need to go even if

you can't see it at the time.

Uh

yeah.

Yeah.

Think about terrible terrible beauty

tips and advice given around like

>> I don't know just like oh god all again

like back to our previous conversation

all the ridiculous things that you are

encouraged to try and do as a woman like

fake tan and and I mean it's hilarious.

I actually right now I I it might be

like well covered up, but I accidentally

have a had a bottle of fake tan in my

bathroom and in my jet lag state last

night I thought I was putting

moisturizer on, but now I have like

these

>> like horrific uh fake tan marks on my

legs and feet. I guess I'm just thinking

about just like oh my god. And recently

I was like, "Okay, I want to get my

teeth whitened." And I looked like Ross

from Friends when he'd had that awful

fake tanning accident because they were

just way too white. And then I had to

spend go back for two other visits to

get the dentist to put my teeth back to

my normal teeth. So I guess I was just

laughing thinking about like worse

advice is just like don't ever listen to

beauty technicians or anyone advising

you to do anything weird to your body,

face, appearance. Just just don't don't

listen. Don't don't take the bait. Just

don't do it.

>> So good. Best answer. Best answer.

>> Question number three. How are you how

are you now going to choose work

projects or activism differently?

>> Does the person that's asking me to do

something with them, uh, can they

confidently look at me and say that they

care about me far more than like what

we're producing? and

and do I care about them that way? One

of my favorite people I worked with,

Steve Chabosski,

uh I remember him

leaving what was a very productive uh

rehearsal or script meeting with Logan

Lurman, Ezra Miller and I and he was

like, I need to go and be with my wife

now. And we were like, I don't think

I've ever heard I mean, at that point, I

certainly had ever heard a director in

my career say they needed to leave for a

personal reason or for a personal

relationship, but I worked far harder

for Steve than I worked for any other

director because

>> I think I was able to be a far give a

far more vulnerable performance in that

film because I felt that he really cared

about me beyond the product of the film.

And I want to work with people like that

who for whom the process is as important

as the outcome and the people that are

part of it are more important than

whatever the outcome is. I think this is

a really difficult thing that I see

everywhere in the world right now is

that we treat objects and things like

they're sacred and we don't treat people

like they're the sacred thing. And that

switch

Yeah. I think it causes a lot of pain.

>> Emma, something that you told me when we

were speaking on the phone

>> was that you've been working with young

people

>> on helping them with some of the

challenges that you've faced in your own

career and your own life.

>> Yeah.

>> And I remember being so touched by that

and I wanted to learn more and for you

to share it because

>> I Yeah. I just think it's really special

and I was sharing it with some of my

team before you arrived and and everyone

was quite drawn to it. So,

>> as a young

person,

and you know, as I've basically shared

over however long it's been that we've

been speaking, I just

really needed to

be having more conversations with people

my own age and people that were older

than me. I feel like I tried to navigate

so many problems on my own and I just

didn't know

who to really speak to and I was

speaking to such a narrow group of

people about what I was trying to

navigate and I I just I think that

working with young people and giving

them each other and also the space, the

reason, the excuses to talk about the

things that we don't talk about or

create spaces for has been the most

gratifying,

the most purposeful and of service I

felt in a long time because

it turns out pretty often that a lot of

the things that we're struggling with,

other people are struggling with as

well. And so in a way going back around

and trying to put out into the world a

lot of the things that I knew I needed

as a young person and didn't get. It's

been the best most the best most

gratifying thing. And I feel really

lucky to be in a position and in a place

where I can say and know like like I've

kind of done this treacherous journey.

And I think that

I think I might have some ideas about

what might be needed for someone to come

out the other side of that safely.

>> So it feels good to be of use.

>> Yeah. I love that. Fifth and final

question. We ask this to every guest

who's ever been on the show. If you

could create one law that everyone in

the world had to follow, what would it

be?

>> Oh wow.

One law.

Okay. There's a couple of contenders. I

want to run you through one of them with

you. One is going to be

>> We'll vote on them.

>> Okay. Great. Perfect. One would be

around the importance of

telling the truth or like speaking your

truth or just because I feel like so

much so much chaos is caused by people

not being sure whether or not they

should or it's a good idea to or I think

that would be a pretty amazing one. Uh,

another contender I mean it's the

obvious one is treat other people as you

would like to be treated. That would

obviously solve a lot of problems as

well.

>> I like that one. You gave

>> the last one?

>> Yeah, the first one. The first one.

>> Oh, the first one. Yeah. The truth.

Yeah. I guess it took me a long time and

probably

probably through doing my yoga teacher

training is speaking truth with kindness

is one of the first nyamas, right?

>> Very disappointed. I can't remember what

the word is in

>> not sata

>> maybe. Yeah. Speaking the truth with

kind like speaking the truth with

kindness. I think of the

>> there's an amazing there's an amazing

quote which actually is

was given to me recently by a friend

which is like the truth

the truth without kindness is brutality

and kindness without

truth is manipulation.

>> Say that again.

>> Truth without kindness is brutality

and

kindness without truth is manipulation.

And so when I say like tell your truth,

I don't mean going around like just

being awful to everyone. I mean like

telling the microscopic truth and like

having those being willing to have a

tolerance for those conversations. One

of my favorite metaphors, I actually

wrote about this recently for being in a

relationship with anyone is like you're

in it's in a way it's it's a dance. It's

a fight. Like I think about boxing in

the sense of like who is going to go

down to the mat with you and like not

tap out because

>> being honest about what's really going

on is uncomfortable and it's risky as we

talked about earlier. You risk every

time you tell the truth of maybe losing

someone that you love because you don't

know how they're going to respond to

whatever your truth is. But I think to

live that way creates the intimacy and

connection that I think we long for

>> and also like sets people free in a way.

You and them truth. Yeah. Truth with

kindness. I think that's I think that's

going to have to be my choice. My factor

of deduction.

>> Yeah. The Bhagat Gita gives four

principles for truth with kindness. The

first is what you speak should be

truthful.

>> Yes.

>> The second is it should be beneficial to

all.

>> Ooh. The third is it shouldn't agitate

the minds of others.

>> Wow.

>> And the fourth is it should be aligned

with eternal wisdom and timeless wisdom.

>> That's beautiful and perfect because

yeah, I think there's truths which are

if they're not beneficial that do just

agitate. I think that's

>> and it's not about not saying it. It's

the idea that you've thought so much

about how you say it. Yes. It's not that

you've sanitized it because that's the

modern day version. The Gita is not

telling you to sanitize or be silenced.

>> It's telling you to filter your thought

>> to make sure that the way you say it is

digestible.

>> Yes.

>> For for everyone who's going to hear it

and therefore it actually has

transformative power.

>> It's not that it's not provocative or

that it doesn't. It's just that you're

not saying it in a way to trigger or get

a reaction.

>> You're saying in a way that hits someone

like an arrow of truth

>> and goes, I have to change.

>> Wow. because that person has been so

mindful of how they spoke.

>> Oh my god, that's incredible. That's

that's everything I've just been trying

to say about Yeah. If if we God, if

everyone was mindful enough about how

they spoke their truth that it could

just go straight to the heart. Oh

>> yeah.

>> Um

>> rather than hit the ego along the way

and the mind. And that's why we can't

talk because everything we say triggers

someone's mind or their ego and then

everything we say does it back. And so

now we're having a mind and ego debate

which

>> isn't the one that goes all the way to

tap, you know, in your

>> We're so focused on defending whatever

the thing is that we feel that we need

to defend that we just can't

>> can't get to the heart.

>> No, you can't hit the heart. Um, so

good. So good,

>> Emma. Thank you for

>> the longest recorded conversation in onp

purpose history. We had to change

>> the cards, the cameras. We had to like

and we haven't paused. Just so everyone

knows, just so everyone knows, me and

Emma have not moved. So, we didn't take

a break.

>> There was no bathroom break. There was

no break of whatever kind. We both sat

there was no coffee break. We have sat

in these seats for the entire duration

that you watch this show or listen to

it. And so Emma, you have the uh you

know, to your competitive and winning

spirit, you have the uh award for

longest ever podcast recording.

>> I I I don't know whether to be mortified

or like seriously embarrassed or uh or

like think feel like this is some kind

of victory of some kind. I guess we've

sat here for like and not moved for more

than 3 hours.

>> Really? Yeah.

>> Surely.

>> It's amazing.

>> Um that's amazing. Well, thank you for

Thank you so much. This has been such an

amazing conversation. If you love this

episode, you'll love my interview with

Dr. Gabbor Mate on understanding your

trauma and how to heal emotional wounds

to start moving on from the past.

>> Everything in nature grows only where

it's vulnerable. So, a tree doesn't grow

where it's hard and thick, does it? It

goes with soft and green and vulnerable.