Ep 66: Marcus Luttrell: The Truth

And, you know, even in his own words on Anderson Cooper, he says that he heard Murph yelling his name that he needs help. Marcus, you know, and he said, you know, on Anderson Cooper Live, I put my gun down, covered up my ears, and I quit right then. I'm a coward. And just like, and that's the real

story. No comment. I know he didn't kill this. Probably blame me for being an

story. No comment. I know he didn't kill this. Probably blame me for being an idiot. Which you were. Which we all were. You have to make it to where

idiot. Which you were. Which we all were. You have to make it to where crime doesn't pay. You have to deter crime. Whether it's crime or terrorism, it's the same principle. You have to clash with supervision. You have to or nothing will get

same principle. You have to clash with supervision. You have to or nothing will get done. Supervisors can't learn how to supervise and you can't learn how to respect a

done. Supervisors can't learn how to supervise and you can't learn how to respect a supervisor without confrontation. It has to happen. Do not take that out. JV Team for life. What's up everybody, just want to give a quick shout out to Zero Nine

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for $1. Five days, essentially. We get there Sunday night. Cocktail hour, we drink. And

then Monday night, we drink. Tuesday night, we drink. Wednesday night and Thursday night and Friday night, we drink. But it's a good time. The amount of education you're going to get there is insane. And it's done by street cops. So head on over to streetcoptraining.com and register now and get your ticket. She's used to

the banter. Yes, not... Typically where you cast your

the banter. Yes, not... Typically where you cast your line. Yeah. Afghanistan for a wife. See what I did there? I tied in

line. Yeah. Afghanistan for a wife. See what I did there? I tied in fish or die for that. That was good. Thank you. You're getting it. I'm getting

there. Yeah. I know. Thank you. And you did leave in the part where I didn't know how the audio worked at the beginning of the podcast. It was really funny. You were like really concerned. Hey, can I just say

podcast. It was really funny. You were like really concerned. Hey, can I just say something real quick? I know. Made myself laugh. So I'm not reaching across from you.

Can you get me a lighter whenever, once you take over, I'm going to. That,

we got that. We got lighters. Finally, when you clean up, you find all the lighters. Lighters for days. You ready for the send-off podcast?

lighters. Lighters for days. You ready for the send-off podcast?

Last podcast in the old studio. Good times. All

right. You ready? Let's do this. All right. Welcome back to the It's I Hero Podcast, part Delta Force, part Street Cop, all podcasts. I'm Tyler, owner of Refracted Wolf Apparel, all-American outsider apparel. We got the best graphic tees in outsider culture, hats, team room, flags, stickers. We even have ranger panties. You know what? I'm a

forego. I'm a forego my own company. Oh, you're so honorable.

Fish or die. Someone reached out to us and said, hey, I'm a police officer.

I have my own company. I love what you guys do. We're just starting up.

I see you guys have promoted companies before. Would you promote mine? I think you guys know the answer because I'm talking about it right now. It's Taylor Magditch. Thank

you so much for reaching out to us and thinking that taking the leap of faith and being like, I don't know if these guys will do it for free, but I'll try it. We sure as hell will. This is what we promote. We

put our money where our mouth is. We get paid nothing for fish or die.

except to promote a police officer's company and brand. And that's what I'm going to use during my time to promote. If you're going to fish, you might as well support. Yep. And I think out of the tens of thousands of listeners out there,

support. Yep. And I think out of the tens of thousands of listeners out there, we've got a few fishermen. You had better go to fish or die, and you'd better buy some stuff and support your own. And it is fish or die bait company.com. fish or die bait company.com. You're not going to

change into a shirt. No, no. Say that for the Patriot.

Yeah. Brent's back by the way. So if you want to know where he was and what he was doing, check out the Patriot. We'll finally reveal it on the Patriot. Yeah, that will do. All right. With that, I'd like to introduce

Patriot. Yeah, that will do. All right. With that, I'd like to introduce our guest and he has an extensive background and I don't, I'd like to say the backgrounds off the top of my head as if I did my research and, and give you the three or four things that they did. But every now and

again, you have a guest that did, I don't know, a dozen things. That was

a big list. And I, and I don't, and I think they're all 27 years.

You get to do a lot of, yeah, 27 years. You may have done a few jobs and, and I want to, and I'm going to hit them all up with us. We have Eric Deming. Thank you so much for coming on. In 1987,

with us. We have Eric Deming. Thank you so much for coming on. In 1987,

he enlisted in the U.S. Navy. 88 to 91, he was on the USS Nimitz helping send aircraft out to the Gulf War to drop bombs on foreheads.

First Gulf War, yep. First Gulf War, that's right. In 91, he graduated second class deep sea diver as a combat diver. I can't wait to talk to him a little bit about the dangers of that job and its uniqueness to... to

combat diving and how it's different. And 91 to 94, worked as a Navy diver off the USS Holland, EOD MOB Unit 6. 94 to 97, EOD MOB Unit, Mobile Unit 12, 97, rejoined active Navy, went to BUDS February 98, graduated BUDS, In October of 99, he gets to his first SEAL

team. First of about three SEAL teams you work for. Yeah,

team. First of about three SEAL teams you work for. Yeah,

SA2. He works for SEAL Team 2. He works for SEAL Team 4. He's in

Advanced Training Command as an instructor. Works for SEAL Team 10. Does special activities too. And then he's even part of a group to continue to do ASOT level

too. And then he's even part of a group to continue to do ASOT level stuff. He retired in 2016 as an E8. I can't wait to talk to you

stuff. He retired in 2016 as an E8. I can't wait to talk to you about all those experiences and Red Wings. I mean,

they'll know by the title that we're here to talk about Red Wings. You will

have to patiently wait and hear what we have to say about that because there's more important stuff. I want you to get to know the man, how he came about, why he's someone that you should listen to and get into his story. Eric,

thank you so much for coming on. Well, thanks for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to kind of shed some light on the situation that we're dealing with it in SEAL teams. Well, like I remember the first time I ever heard of you was the, was it a CBS special? I can't remember the news agency. Yeah,

it was CBS. And I wasn't even looking for it. I came across it and it was actually like, I had no idea. I was just one of those people.

I had no idea, but it was about how you were, you were wishing that people would be more outspoken about bad apples in the Navy SEAL community. Yeah, trying

to clean up the corruption that was happening with it, that still is happening within the SEAL teams, and calling out the bad actors that need to be called out.

And so that was, and I was one of some of them that would basically, that was willing, now that I was retired, willing to step up and put my face and a name out there and take the abuse that would come to, you know, stepping out there like that, so. Well, we'll talk about how you got there.

Well, that actually reminds me a little bit about SEAL teams and how... Not only

are they small, I mean, the Navy's smaller than the Army, so in essence, the SEAL teams are going to be smaller than Green Beret teams just by percentages.

We can all get on our high horse, but really when it comes down to it, and I would expect every... every special operations commander person to think that theirs were the best as they should. Of course. They should. They should have that type of pride. But at the end of the day, the selection pass rate, the size of them are all pretty much, you know, pretty similar to their parent branch.

And they're very similar in that aspect. But one of the reasons why SEALs, I feel like, is such a tighter community and not everyone knows this, the special forces groups are spread out. all throughout the United States are in Florida, North Carolina, Colorado, Washington state. I mean, they're everywhere. The SEAL teams are pretty much just

Washington state. I mean, they're everywhere. The SEAL teams are pretty much just broken up in two and correct me if I'm wrong in this and two West coast, East coast. Yeah. And the different San Diego, Virginia beach. And we got SDV team out in Hawaii. Those, that's a very, really small unit. So, and those teams that, that the odd number and even numbers, those even within, they're like right next

door to each other. Oh yeah. Right in the same compound. Yeah. Right. So the

chance of one seal knowing another seal or the stories, it's not only a smaller community, but the way they're even kind of divided in half and then grouped closely to each other just makes it even a tighter knit community. Yeah. And even the same, you know, certain neighborhoods, you know, will... Within Virginia Beach, we'll have a more

condensed group of SEALs located in that area, too. We want to be down by the water, down by the beach, and down by the better bars and stuff like that so you don't have to drive far. So we're a pretty tight group of guys. Very jealous of you guys' duty stations. So much better than Army duty stations.

guys. Very jealous of you guys' duty stations. So much better than Army duty stations.

Yeah. Because you're speaking, you've got to be at the coast. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You've

got to be by the water. That's why I live in Florida, because I'm always by the water. So let's get into... where you came from and how you became a seal. Where'd you grow up at? So I was born in Boston, but grew up most of my life here in Florida, up in a little town called Interlarkin, which is right next to Palatka. Yeah. And it's, it's agricultural. When I say

agriculture, it's redneck as hell. And, um, but, um, divorced parents had a stepfather, you know, later in my life, as far as basically when I started getting to high school, but had a gentleman, um, pretty much adopt me as a grandson, Buck Buckles. And I would say that's the guy that, that mentored me to a point where, you know, going into the military or standing up for what's

right is what my purpose was in life somewhat. You think, uh, was he always, did you know you were going to join the military or you're saying that like culturally that, that, that line culturally that lined up with, you know, his values and stuff. I did have an uncle who was in the Navy at the time and that's, how I ended up on aircraft carrier my first you know

my first enlistment didn't know much about it realized it got up there and you know as soon as I could I got to the most exciting thing on the aircraft carriers getting up there on the flight deck and being you know you got the guy that sends the aircraft off well right before that guy there's a couple guys that run into the aircraft while it's full throttle checking certain things to make

sure everything's all right giving him the thumbs up then he sends it off and that's was one of the most exciting jobs you could do on an aircraft carrier.

But realize that's not a long-term profession. So I wanted to do something different. And that's when I went to the diving Navy. To go back to the

different. And that's when I went to the diving Navy. To go back to the Navy, so it didn't sound like you had, it was going to be Navy or nothing. Like you knew you wanted to join the Navy. You didn't shop it around

nothing. Like you knew you wanted to join the Navy. You didn't shop it around or anything. I thought about the Marine Corps, but I didn't really know much about

or anything. I thought about the Marine Corps, but I didn't really know much about any of that type stuff. And I just knew that my best opportunities to see the world would be if I joined the Navy. It's always a little ironic to me, although you could say this about any profession, but specifically the military, you're potentially going to do the same job for almost 20 years or the same profession,

unless you volunteer to go into special operations. There's one easy way to change that course. It's a hard way to do it, but it's one way to do it.

course. It's a hard way to do it, but it's one way to do it.

What's interesting, you have MOSs, we have NECs or rates. I

had five different rates in the Navy. Did you? Yeah. Started off as what they call an AX, which was an anti-sub-electronics technician. Okay. They combined it to make us all ATs. So now I'm an AT. Then when I went to dive school, I

all ATs. So now I'm an AT. Then when I went to dive school, I had to have a source rate that wasn't avionics related. Okay. So I became an HT and they called them a whole technician, like welding and stuff like that. Turd

chasers is what they call them on a ship a lot of times. And the

only reason I was... You know, as an HT, as a diver, you don't work in your rate anyway. So you're just taking advancement exams on it. When I went to join the SEAL teams, they were like, well, we don't need any HTs, but we need BMs. And I was just like, well, cross-married me to a BM. I

don't care. So I was a BM. And then, you know, like 2003 or 2005 or whatever, they made SEAL a rate. And that's when I came in SO. So

I had five different rates when I was in. Hey, Brent, do you want to – I hit the power button on that thing, but – No, you got to hit it twice. It's a weird – I sat down and it was still going.

I was like, ugh. That's why we don't do it live, people.

So I want to talk to you about the, you know, sending airplanes off as your first job, which is pretty cool when you know that your job is related to something tangible to a war. You're not just sending them off for practice anymore. Yeah, these things were full of bombs that had special notes written by most

anymore. Yeah, these things were full of bombs that had special notes written by most of the guys that were up there on the CAOs and stuff like that and sending those things off to... Did you get a favorite plane at some point? So

I went to air shows a lot as a kid. Yeah. So I had a favorite jet. Out of curiosity, what was yours? F-14s for sure.

favorite jet. Out of curiosity, what was yours? F-14s for sure.

Yeah. And then an A-10. So those are my two top jets. Yeah. And in

fact, I could tell you what my dad's was. A-4. Oh, yeah. The A-4s. He

loved the A-4s. A-4 Phantoms. Loved them. Did you ever want to be a pilot?

Was that ever something? It was, you know, right... around that time when I joined was the first Top Gun movie. And, you know, and I, you know, me coming from a podunk country or, you know, city in Florida, you know, I thought maybe, you know, just join and you could go do something like that. That's not the facts. So I realized pretty quick, like, okay, I didn't have the, the background to

facts. So I realized pretty quick, like, okay, I didn't have the, the background to get into that yet as far as unless I went to college and everything. So

I was just like, I realized, okay, what's the next thing that I can do?

And that's when that, That brings me back around what I got off topic. What

I was going to say is, like a lot of professions, but like I said, very specifically in the military, you join and you're basically going to do this job, but you have the least information at this time and have to make your biggest decision. Oh, yeah. So with only a little bit of information, you're basically going to

decision. Oh, yeah. So with only a little bit of information, you're basically going to make a life choice of what you might do for sure for four years, eight years, possibly 20 years. And you really don't know what you're getting into. Yeah, not

at all. You really don't. I agree. And you can be led down certain paths by the recruiters that might not be accurate. Yeah, easily. And that's not even me hating on recruiters, which is so easily to do, but they have a job. And

their job is to fill the ranks, the needs of the Navy, the needs of the Army. 100%. And so not everyone can just go do the fun jobs. It

the Army. 100%. And so not everyone can just go do the fun jobs. It

won't work. Yeah. So I'm not even, you know, when they... they kind of nudge someone one way or another. It's, you know, there's a reason for that. I'm not,

I'm sure there's plenty of stories out there of recruiters, not necessarily doing maybe what they should do. Oh yeah. But generally speaking, my recruiter, great dude. Yeah. But again,

he, he put me in a job he needed to put me in. Yeah. And

that's how it was. Yeah. I don't even remember my recruiter at all. Yeah. The,

so, so here you are, you make this decision and you're sitting, you're sitting, you're sitting them off back to, do you have a favorite jet? So, yeah, the F-14 was, you know, the big boy on the aircraft carrier at the time. And it's

a lot bigger than most people think. It's like it's huge compared to like an F-18. And they can carry such a huge payload as far as the amount of,

F-18. And they can carry such a huge payload as far as the amount of, you know, bombs and missiles and stuff that those things can carry. And when you're on the flight deck and those things, you know, just huge engines, and they're turning or whatever, and they're just blowing so much heat and exhaust that, you know, you see guys flipping down the flight deck, you know, that weren't braced for it or

slipped or something along those. There's a lot of diesel fuel up there. So you

see them get some road rash, basically, if they're not paying attention. And you see guys, you know, do, you know, get hurt, you know, pretty bad sometimes. What What

surprised you the first time you sent, you know, you're on an aircraft carrier on the deck, you know, sending planes off? Was there anything that you're like, that was different? That was more than I thought, less than I thought different. Yeah. I started

different? That was more than I thought, less than I thought different. Yeah. I started

off as a plane captain, which basically is the guys that tie down the aircraft and fuel them and do different things like that and do, you know, minor maintenance to them. So you get used to working up on the flight deck. And, you

to them. So you get used to working up on the flight deck. And, you

know, that's kind of you're lugging around, you know, a bunch of chains to tie this thing down. You're just a grease monkey up there. So I quickly said, OK, who are the guys with the white shirts and the checkers on them? So I

was just like, OK, that's that's where I want to get to. I want to.

So I'm always looking for the, you know, the next better location or better position or job. I think your career will show that. Yeah. I finally get to, you

or job. I think your career will show that. Yeah. I finally get to, you know. And three years, do you ever have any incidents on the deck? Not you

know. And three years, do you ever have any incidents on the deck? Not you

personally, but something that happened on the aircraft? Everyone land okay? Everyone take off okay?

Everyone stay on the aircraft carrier? We ended up with a situation where, because when they're landing aircraft, the side of the aircraft carrier has got to be open for all that. So they stack them all in one little area. And when they're re-spotting

all that. So they stack them all in one little area. And when they're re-spotting everything, they kind of condense everything to get it all set up to launch later on. Well, there was an AO that was working on an A7 up there, and

on. Well, there was an AO that was working on an A7 up there, and this was during the Gulf War, so there was live stuff loaded. He sent a bunch of rounds into the aircraft in front of him, caught it on fire. The

whole flight deck is packed full of stuff. We got a huge fire going on.

And I think, I'm trying to remember, we lost like three or four guys fighting that fire. And we ended up having to throw those aircraft over the side. Yeah,

that fire. And we ended up having to throw those aircraft over the side. Yeah,

because they were just all burnt up and... There was a lot of aircraft. I

can't remember exactly how many aircraft we lost, but it was all because one guy had fired some rounds. Was it at that point, you're like, you know what, then we would be a diver. No, I just realized I couldn't see myself doing this forever. I was pretty interested in diving and growing up on the

forever. I was pretty interested in diving and growing up on the water with my grandfather and stuff like that. I always leaned that way. My

uncle, who was in the Navy, kind of pushed me to go on the, you know, the avionics side as far as. So, you know, we talked about, you know, the one easy answer to get out of a career field or, you know, to change directions is, is to, you know, go to, go to a selection. Was, was

going to diving, was that an easy reclass to do or did you have to fight them at all for that? It wasn't too bad because I was close to my end of my enlistment. So it was kind of, are you going to, Basically reenlist. So I had to, I had some leverage. I had a little bit of

reenlist. So I had to, I had some leverage. I had a little bit of leverage to get to dive school. You had some chips. And so I got to go to dive school. Okay. How long is that school? How deep do you go? As a second class diver, you go to

that school? How deep do you go? As a second class diver, you go to 165. Okay. With a surface supplied air supply. So you've got the hard hat.

165. Okay. With a surface supplied air supply. So you've got the hard hat.

And that's as deep as you go. if I remember correctly, cause this is 91, I think it was 12 to 14 weeks long. And you start off with scuba and then you move into, you know, the, you know, the hard hat type stuff and underwater welding and you see a husbandry and stuff like that. And, and because it's, it's surface supplied air is your, your, your bottom time is, I'm going to

say endless. Is there like, of course it's not endless, but it's, it's not on

say endless. Is there like, of course it's not endless, but it's, it's not on the same scale as if, you know, you're at a hundred foot doing scuba. You're

at, Yeah. Yeah. You're at five minutes, 10 minutes without, unless you're going to do a stop. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. And your tanks will run out, you know, you'll

a stop. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. And your tanks will run out, you know, you'll run out of air pretty quick at those depths. That's right. Yeah. You'll have to hang some tanks to, uh, to, to do a, to do a stop. Yeah. The

diving that you were doing at this time, that's different. I heard you guys talk about a little bit before. It's different than combat diving. Is this just like maintenance on the ship or like? Well, when I was on the USS Holland, it was maintenance on submarines, you know, nuclear subs, basically. There's certain things that you get.

If you've got to change something inside of it, sometimes you've got to plug up something on the outside so that they can open up and do the things on the inside. Or if you've got to change out the propellers or if you've got

the inside. Or if you've got to change out the propellers or if you've got to change out certain things so they hit something, you've got to assess the damage.

Or if, let's say, a helicopter goes in the water, you've got to go out and recover that because of the electronics. So you've got to find it and then figure out how you're going to salvage that thing back up. So you're doing a lot of these either repairs, upgrades, or just at some point you've got to do a check on the you know, on the ship and the screws and everything. Yeah.

Are you doing that in port? Uh, or are you doing that out and where you can, cause you can't normally see in port. Yeah. Depends on the port. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. This is usually it's dark water diving. And you, when soon as you get underneath the ship, it gets pretty dark a lot of times. Right. And, um,

it can be sometimes is way worse with combat diving when you basically get underneath the ship, uh, Or when all of a sudden you hear like a big, you know, you're heading into a harbor and all of a sudden you hear a big ship coming and you're just like, and you're on a dragger and you're just like, okay, I can go down to 50 feet for, you know, one excursion, two excursions.

And you're just like, you know, how big is this ship coming over? Cause you

know, it isn't like, you're going to go up and take a look at it, but you don't want to be hit by this damn thing, but it's so frigging loud and so scary. And you get down and you start sucking, cause they suck in mud. You get as low as you possibly can get, you know, to make

in mud. You get as low as you possibly can get, you know, to make sure you're underneath those things. So, wow. That is insane. That's yeah. I, I enjoyed the, the combat, you know, a diving aspect of it. Um, Because of the tactical aspect of it. It is fun. It is cool. Yeah. But man, that type of diving, you know, for a job, that's tough diving right there. Yeah. So

I can't say... There's only a couple of times I was ever scared. It's just

so much different. Yeah, as far as... Because you're... A lot of... Unless you're doing scuba, a lot of times you're attached to an umbilical. Yeah. And there's been stories of guys that, you know, went over underneath an aircraft carrier, was working on the other side of it. Well, the tide came in and... basically the aircraft carrier sat on the umbilical, didn't cut it off, but he couldn't get back underneath it. So

there's, you know, there's those stories that we've learned lessons learned and move on. But

as far as you can, you can be underwater a long period of time. Is

it correct to call it as a hard hat diver? Is that how many dives do you have as a hard hat diver? Do you keep a dive log with that as well? Like you have a jump log and I have a dive log too. Yeah. So the, you know, For me, I wasn't on the haul in too

too. Yeah. So the, you know, For me, I wasn't on the haul in too long. So I was going to, and, you know, we did a couple other ships

long. So I was going to, and, you know, we did a couple other ships as far as, I would say I probably, you know, those type dives somewhere around 50 to 75. Yeah. It's a good number though. And then, and then when I went to the EOD unit, we were doing scuba and we were recovering mines off the coast of Charleston, South Carolina. And those were a lot of bounce dives. I

got a thousand of those type dives, but it was scuba going down, And, uh, but I got a lot of diving experience and whenever we weren't doing a job going out for the Navy, we would do training dives, which meant we were spearfishing or, or, or looking for shark's teeth in Charleston, South Carolina, which, you know, I got some shark's teeth that are six and, you know, seven inches. And, you know,

so it's, I got some nice artifacts. So by maintaining my dive qualifications of way more than I probably should have had. That's, that's, and it's, I'll ask you this when you get to, don't answer it just yet, but in case I forget, I want to know if, because we're going to talk about EOD, you know, EOD of diving as an aspect. And I want to know if you think that contributed to

your success in Buds, because obviously you're going to be very familiar with the water.

We'll get into that. Don't let me forget that. I want to know the answer to that. Yeah, I got some stories about it. From there, you make the transition

to that. Yeah, I got some stories about it. From there, you make the transition from deep sea diver to um, to, to EOD, correct? I went through their EOD apprentice, you know, program, which is like just an assistant. And, uh, I don't even know if they have it anymore. And, um, you know, the command, you know, would have recommended, did recommend me wanting me to go to, you know, EOD tech

school, but, uh, I had a, you know, the diaphysical saying I had all the criteria to go to buds. And I said, Hey, I got to challenge myself to that level to see if I had what it takes. And I wasn't sure. Um,

So I wanted to find out. And I told you before the podcast and it's, and I'll say it again here because you don't get a lot of compliments from, from, from other branches. There's, there's a, there's a, there's a few, there's a few jobs that everyone understands. Those guys are good. Yeah. I'll, I'll

first selfishly say I wasn't one, but 18 deltas special forces medics. Oh yeah.

Yeah. they're the best medics and you just don't get a lot of pushback on that. Yep. Agreed. A hundred percent. And the only other one I can think of

that. Yep. Agreed. A hundred percent. And the only other one I can think of just off the top of my head is Navy EOD. Navy EOD is well respected through all the branches at being very, very good at their job. Yeah. Not only

do they have to do their job on land, but they got to do it underwater and they got to learn so many more, you know, the minds that are in the water, most, you know, mind type stuff that are in the water. Yeah.

your regular EOD guys never see or never touch. And so they got a vast knowledge of information and some of the best guys I've ever known in my life were EOD guys. And in the SEAL teams, we end up with one of them, you know, in a SEAL platoon that basically deploy with us. And a lot of those guys were equally good shooting and, you know, everything else. We knew what their

job was. So, you know, as far as we protect them, just like the radio

job was. So, you know, as far as we protect them, just like the radio man or the calm guy and stuff like that. But, you know, you know, push come to shove if they had to go through the door and they were number one, they were ready to do it. And essentially, I mean, that was, and correct me if I'm wrong, that was the beginning of SEALs, you know, was Navy EOD.

It was demolition teams, which is a little bit different as far as, well, they had the scouts and raiders earlier, you know, as far as, so on D-Day, you know, the, you know, the coast was littered with whether they were mines, you know, things that we couldn't land. And their job was basically to go in with satchels full of explosives while being shot at. And basically all they had was

a dive mask and a bunch of explosives. And they would basically attach around these different things that we wanted to try to make a path so we could land through there. And that's how it started, the demolition teams. Yeah. I'll tell you, sometimes

through there. And that's how it started, the demolition teams. Yeah. I'll tell you, sometimes I read stories about those World War II men. Yeah. I read... about the

SAS and what they did in Africa, what the boys did on D-Day. And I

read that. And sometimes I look at, we had a pretty storied, you know, careers, separate paths, but proud of our careers. I read those stories. I'm like,

those are men. Those guys, I agree a hundred percent. Those guys measured up and they stepped up and, you know, and they knew, you know, I never thought one time that I went out that I was going to die. Never. I was just like, we got such an old, We're trained to this level. We got this equipment.

We got this overwhelming technology that's going to help us. And we've had eyes on the target for a little bit. We know a lot of stuff that's going to happen before we get there. And they are the greatest generation. And I would love to have them and ask them the same question. I wonder if they had the same answers. And you're like, you know what? I didn't go out there thinking I

same answers. And you're like, you know what? I didn't go out there thinking I was going to die. But it was... They saw it a lot more than us.

It was so much bigger. Like, yeah, they had to know that it was a much bigger possibility, you know, for them and the things they were asked to do and the things they did. It's, it's, it's, it's crazy. Uh,

Do you think, is it a fair statement? What would you say about this? Is

Navy EOD, would you consider that, I'm going to use this term loosely, a feeder program into Buds or the SEALs? Like a lot of those guys go that way or not necessarily? I think, yeah, I've only known, excuse me, I've only known about three or four guys that were twin pins as far

as that were SEALs and EOD. And it's very... very few and far.

But for whatever reason, I think they're, because they get to do a lot of the same things that we were doing. If they strive to get into, you know, to augment a SEAL team, they got those opportunities that were there. So they got to do a lot of the same things and they get the, you know, they get the diving, they get the jumping, they get the shooting. So it's funny you

say that. Cause when I think of that, you know, people, I've heard people say

say that. Cause when I think of that, you know, people, I've heard people say that about LURS teams, you know, and LURS teams are, you know, a feeder program and, and, and the special forces. Yeah. And you would think so, but not necessarily.

I can't think of a lot. Are there LERS guys that go SF? Absolutely. But

really, those guys are already, they get to go to dye school. They get to go to Halo school, Pathfinder. You get an 82nd LERS guy, a division LERS guy.

He goes to all the schools. They have a pretty good, they might laugh at this. They get a pretty good budget. They get to do a lot of things.

this. They get a pretty good budget. They get to do a lot of things.

So along those lines, the drive to go do something unique may not necessarily be there because they get to do a lot of those things. Yeah. Um,

so it's, it's interesting. That's what people say about Lurse, but that kind of doesn't really hold water, but I hear that about EOD. I don't know if that's true or not either. I don't remember having an EOD guy in my class and, uh, but I did have, I think one, two, maybe three other divers that were in my class. How'd you like, how'd you like the, no, was the EOD a whole

my class. How'd you like, how'd you like the, no, was the EOD a whole separate rate or is it already within your, your, you know, that, that lane was just an added range? job description it was an added yeah you had to have a different you had to have a source rating like the ht like i or bm or something like that and uh but they made it its own rate eventually

and the same thing with diver they made that its own rate its own so you didn't have to take a test on stuff that you um didn't really know that much well we'll fast forward a little bit because i want to i want to get to we have a there's a yeah you could be a three-hour podcast you've done a lot um we'll get to you go out at some point you,

you get out, you go into the reserves doing this job. Yeah. And then you, then you come back in really specifically to, to go to Bud's talk about that trip. Okay. So I was working as a, a dive instructor, Patty instructor, uh, and

trip. Okay. So I was working as a, a dive instructor, Patty instructor, uh, and doing that realize I'm not going to make the millions that I want. And I'm

not really, you know, thinking that this is the job satisfaction became a job and I didn't really enjoy it that much. And I said, I, you know, and I felt like I never really tested myself all the way. And, um, I end up with having – I'm coming up close to the age where I can't go to Bud's. I'm at 27 or 28 at the time. And I'm already in E6,

Bud's. I'm at 27 or 28 at the time. And I'm already in E6, and I'm just like, if I'm going to do it, I've got to make the decision. Which is senior for the Navy. Navy takes their rank very seriously. Yeah, yeah,

decision. Which is senior for the Navy. Navy takes their rank very seriously. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Army will give out E6. Yeah, and honestly, when I show up at Bud's, The instructors, most of them were E5s and a few E6s.

And they don't want, and rightfully so, they don't want an E6 with zero experience showing up at a team. And just because you got the rank, sometimes you might be put into a position. Within the SEAL teams, you can check that ego to the side and just like, hey, it's not about rank. It's who's best qualified to do the job. And I got that pretty quick. And so the instructors understood

that I knew that. And so they, you know, but some others, you know, they were just like, ah, you don't get it. And, you know, so they want to make sure that, you know, they run everybody through the ringers, but sometimes if you don't have the right attitude, they can say, you know, make it a little harder.

So you go through buds and late, mid to late nineties. And, you know, I don't want to be that guy. Like everything was harder back in the day, but I also think we can all agree. Some things have changed some for the good, but yeah. It's not what it used to be. Did, did, did buds live up

but yeah. It's not what it used to be. Did, did, did buds live up to your expectation? Was it, was it, and I'm sure being in the Navy, you heard stories, you knew what you were getting into. Yeah. So I was a very competent, you know, comfortable in the water. And, and that, and that's a huge thing that helps you get through it. But, you know, they're going to run you through

the ringers and look for your weaknesses and, and they're going to try to exploit it and see how you handle, handle that. And so it was definitely the most challenging thing for me that I've ever done. And so. Well, walk us through, and people will say this, and if they do, it's because they don't know our podcast and they don't listen to it. Maybe they just see the one-minute shorts of

me saying something, which is just not true. I've read many a SEAL books. Right,

out of context. Yeah. When I was going through the Q course, I would read...

Every special operations book I could get my hands on. And it didn't matter to me if it was a SEAL book, a Green Beret book, Inside Delta Force by Eric Caney. I read them all, and I loved them, and I loved their stories.

Eric Caney. I read them all, and I loved them, and I loved their stories.

I think people don't really have a grasp on what the difference between BUDS, Hell Week, SEAL training, the tactics training, the different phases... Can you lay that out for us just real quick? What, you know, maybe it's changed since then, but what that looked like back in 97, 98. Yeah. 97 is when I started

98 February is when I graduated. So I budge, you start off in first phase and that's where you, you know, the first, I think it's the week four or five, you go through hell week and that's where they're the weeding out process to see what you kind of, you know, if you have the mental fortitude to get through it and deal with a lot of adversity or, and kind of muscle through

it. Then once you get through first phase and you basically become a brown shirt,

it. Then once you get through first phase and you basically become a brown shirt, you got through hell week, then you hit dive phase. And that's when they're just like, okay, let's see how comfortable you are in the water. Then the attrition rate, you know, from that, as far as you got drown proofing where they tie your hands behind your back, tie your feet up. And then you got, you know, and

that was, it's challenging, even if you're comfortable in the water and it's something that you're just not going to jump in and naturally do. You better, you know, be practicing and prepared for it. And it's still very challenging because there's a lot of stress of the instructors, you know, that might be adding some added stress to it on top of what's kind of, you know, just the task at hand. Then, you

know, the underwater knot tying and staying down there as far as they keep you down there until you think you, they get creative. Yeah. And, and honestly, you know, for me, I had so much faith at the instructors. I never felt like the instructors were, trying to weed out anybody good. They were just trying to test you to make sure what you had to get through it. Yeah. And so, and

so even underwater, not tying or treading water with the, you know, the twin eighties on your back. Right. Um, I, if, if I passed out underwater, I had the utmost, uh, confidence that the instructors and I was willing to, and you know, that's how long, and there was, you know, you know, they call it, you know, the beehive. When you're treading water, it's with 2080s on your back. And the more air

beehive. When you're treading water, it's with 2080s on your back. And the more air that's in the back of, you know, that's in those tanks, the heavier they are.

So as far as we're trying to breathe those things down as fast as we possibly can, but there's 2080s, and you're only in, you know, 10 feet of water.

Right. So you're not really, you know, so you go through the evolutions and everything else, those tanks are full of air, and they're, you know, negatively buoyant. And you

got a weight belt and you got other stuff and you tread in water and tread in water and the next thing, you know, there's splashing going on and you get water in your face. There's guys grabbing ahold of you to get their head out of the water and they pack you and get you closer and closer together.

And there was a time I was just like, fuck this, I'm just going to pass out. and go underwater. I know the instructor. I knew if I passed out

pass out. and go underwater. I know the instructor. I knew if I passed out that they weren't going to fail me. And I was just like, I'm just going to pass out. I got down to the bottom. You're just going to accept it.

I'm just going to accept it. I got to the bottom of the pool, and I didn't like that either. So I go back up. Abort, abort, abort.

And I get to the top, and that's when they secured the evolution. I'm like,

thank God that's over. Did you have any... Any Green Berets or SF guys, guest instructors or LNOs? Yeah, they were some of those guys. And there's some PJs.

I can't remember too much interaction with them. They were kind of guest instructors. And

they played an important role. But you got your core group of guys that are constantly on the class all the time. I asked that because when I went to Special Forces Combat Dive School, we had two Navy SEAL instructors that were there. And

not everyone may know this, but certain military branches own certain infiltration techniques. And the Navy owns diving. When the way, when

infiltration techniques. And the Navy owns diving. When the way, when everything we did was, was off the Navy manual. Yeah. Navy tells us how we can dive Navy with everything we do in the army is, is, and the Navy allows us to dive. They literally do certify or whatever. That is correct.

And those two Navy seal instructors were the best. Oh, nice. And I'll tell you why they're the best. And you'll understand this. The green brain structures were dicks and, uh, Dive school in the Army is notoriously hard, but they want to weed you out because they might have to work with you. Seal guys don't have to work with you. I'm sure that someone else may ring up and say, I had a

with you. I'm sure that someone else may ring up and say, I had a SEAL instructor in my class and he was as hard as the rest of them, but they were... They were the most giving instructors. They were the nice guys. They

didn't have to be the jerks. They're just here as a guest. And any time you got them grading you in an event, you're like, oh, good, I had one of those guys. Because you just know he'll grade you fairly. Just go or no go. And the Army instructors would put a little extra on it. And I know

go. And the Army instructors would put a little extra on it. And I know we have... at least one full-time LNO position over there in an

we have... at least one full-time LNO position over there in an exchange program. Cause we, we have, we have two of your guys and I think

exchange program. Cause we, we have, we have two of your guys and I think we have to give one of our guys. Yeah. I remember, you know, one, I just can't recall how much, you know, interaction that I had with them. And in

fact, there was a time when I'm talking about a fun fact, we're three for three, three episodes. You got the fact that closed circuit diving Drager diving was taken out of our dive school. Okay. there was a rift between the army and Navy and it had to do with, it had to

do with jumping. And so we took jumping away from them or slots and the Navy said, Oh yeah, well you can't do closed circuit diving. Oh wow. And

so there was like two or three classes. I don't remember how many that didn't get Draeger qualified. Okay. And then when the Navy allowed us to use the Draeger again, they, those guys had to come back to get Draeger qualified because the Navy allowed us to Draeger dive again. Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole different animal, but it just, I love that rig. You know, it's just so much time underwater with it.

So we go down to Key West for just when we start a lot of our diving training, we'll go down to Key West to start off in clear, warm water. In the schoolhouse, that's where you go? No, we just go down there, Truman

water. In the schoolhouse, that's where you go? No, we just go down there, Truman Annex and right out of that little harbor down there. And we basically do a bunch. And it's just only a week, maybe two weeks, you know, maybe two weeks

bunch. And it's just only a week, maybe two weeks, you know, maybe two weeks max. Is this when you're with the teams? This is when you're with the teams.

max. Is this when you're with the teams? This is when you're with the teams. Yeah, yeah. just get refreshed with everything as far as you, and then you go

Yeah, yeah. just get refreshed with everything as far as you, and then you go back up to Virginia beach or, you know, other places where the water, it's just cold, dark, miserable. But when you're down there in key West, as far as you're, you're going down to Duval street, you know, as far as, and, but you couldn't wait to get, back to the dive locker to get on bag, to get underwater.

Cause you might be hung over a little bit from the night before. And pure

O2 under pressure. And actually you, you enter the water just like, Oh God, I just want this to be over with. And you got to experience that you can do it pretty well already, but you just can't, you know, get this over with.

By the time you're done with the dive after, you know, two or three hours later, you're just like, woohoo, it's time to go, you know, Duval street and, you know, and, Live the frogman life. I got sidetracked. We'll go back to Bud's. You know, you talk about phase one. And Hell Week, is that finish

to Bud's. You know, you talk about phase one. And Hell Week, is that finish off phase one? Is that the culminating exercise? Pretty much. There's a couple of runs and swims that you have to have a lesser time to beat before you go to phase two if you don't beat those times. And I think there might be one long-distant run at the time. It's been a little while. But yeah, pretty much

after Hell Week, Pretty much they said, okay, we want you to get the second phase. Second phase, we'll call it pool phase. You use a lot of the, you

phase. Second phase, we'll call it pool phase. You use a lot of the, you know. It's open circuit as far as scuba dives. And then you get into dragger

know. It's open circuit as far as scuba dives. And then you get into dragger later on. You start off with scuba. And once you get through pool comp with

later on. You start off with scuba. And once you get through pool comp with scuba, then, all right, you've earned the right to basically put on a dragger and start doing combat dives. We're having to field a lot of our questions because you're our first SEAL. So you are a first seal on the show. And I'd like you to come back. Well, I'll, I'll do a

sidetrack real quick. I'd love you to come back. Cause I'd love to do an episode on a lot of people don't understand the difference between green berets, seals, raiders. You know, I want to, I want to have one guest on of each

raiders. You know, I want to, I want to have one guest on of each special operation element to say they're, they're all similar yet. They're all very different and have certain charters. And this is why we have different special operations elements. So I'd

love to have you on for that. Yeah. I won't speak for another, you know, another. We'll come up with a plan and execute it. So after, after phase two,

another. We'll come up with a plan and execute it. So after, after phase two, what's. So phase. Yeah. Then after phase two, then you head out to the island

what's. So phase. Yeah. Then after phase two, then you head out to the island and that's where you start learning land warfare and shooting and all that type stuff and demolition. That's where you basically start kind of slowly learning what your job is

and demolition. That's where you basically start kind of slowly learning what your job is as a SEAL. And they want to make sure that you can handle weapons correctly.

You got, you know, things along those lines and explosives too. Now I was going to ask a question, but you just mentioned a few things that would, that would be reason not to have this when, when you get into phase three, is that more of, you feel like it's more of the training phase? Like you kind of have to screw up to, to, to get kicked out, but now you're, now you're

working with, with weapons and demolitions. It's pretty easy. Yeah. You want guys to be competent with that. Yep. Um, yeah. So does attrition rate less, you know, at this phase, each phase, it gets less and less. And, uh, and, The further along you get, you know, the more, you know, basically investment that they have in you. So

they, they'll retread you slash roll you. If you're making mistakes, they want you to try to get through. We need as many seals as we possibly get, but they're not going to minimize the standards to get anybody through, but they'll try to retread you to get you to those standards. And the runs in the swims times are getting less and less. So your performance has got to, keep increasing. Okay. Is

there any talks about females entering the Navy SEAL community in the future?

It's opened up to them right now. I don't think they've had any of them make it. I don't know if anybody, if they've made it to Budge yet, but

make it. I don't know if anybody, if they've made it to Budge yet, but it's opened up to just like for you guys, we opened it up. But their

biggest thing is that, you know, the standards are the standards and I don't know of any that's made it. Like real girls, not like ones that say they're like real girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you've had the female

real girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you've had the female engagement teams and different things. That's right. You've had different people that perform at pretty high levels. I can get controversial with that. Yeah. Let's just say

high levels. I can get controversial with that. Yeah. Let's just say a man that decided that he wanted to be a female, but he also wanted to do man things like become a Navy SEAL, right? Yeah. I can see that throwing a wrench in the chemistry of a bunch of warriors and Maybe they might not want that person, but the Navy being, what do you call that, politically correct?

When you take an element, no matter what it is, of like-minded men that are going to go out there and accomplish a mission, they all learn how to work with each other. It takes a while. If you took 25 brand new dudes and threw them in an element together, it's going to take a long time for everybody to figure out, okay, but once it's greased and ready to go, it's fine-tuned. And

when you throw literally a wrench in it and watch it break down, and that's not effective anymore. Oh, yeah. I understand what you're saying. Go ahead. But as far as – so anybody that's a weak link in a boat crew as far as – and that's kind of – you broke it up into boat crews when you're going through buds. And if you've got somebody that's not pulling their weight – It's

easily kind of recognized not only by, you know, the fellow students, but by the instructors. Yeah. And so they come up with ways to say, okay, you're letting your

instructors. Yeah. And so they come up with ways to say, okay, you're letting your team down. You're letting your guys down. And so I think that pressure

team down. You're letting your guys down. And so I think that pressure alone will cause a lot of people, you know, female or male to say, okay, I don't have what it takes. Is it? my ability is, is hurting the team.

And if they're honest with themselves, as far as in their abilities, hurting the team, then they, they don't need to go. And that's why a lot of guys quit.

They're just like, Hey, I'm hurting the team. Yeah. Is it, is it really, is it harder on short people? Or is that just something David Goggins made up? I

think it's easier on the, well, not too short of people, but as far as on, you know, average size guys, look at me, I'm, I'm five, seven. And so

a lot of people think, You know, persona of a Navy SEAL is, you know, 10 foot tall and bulletproof or whatever. Right. And when you meet a lot of Navy SEALs, you're like, oh, that was a little similar. Oh, no, I have it backwards. Tall dudes. He's a member talking about holding the boats. Yeah. The short dudes

backwards. Tall dudes. He's a member talking about holding the boats. Yeah. The short dudes just got to go on there. If you can't reach the log or the boat, it's not your fault. Yeah. Well, they break you up into boat crews by height.

Okay. Oh, no. So they're on top of it. They're on top of it. So

you're pulling your way. Yeah. But if you are, as the attrition rate goes, you know, higher and higher, The boat crews get a little lopsided. And those poor guys do take some, you know. And there are a lot of guys who run around with those boats on your head. You lose a lot of hair on top of your head a lot of times. And just like. You didn't recycle anything, did you?

Yeah, luckily for me, I stayed with my class the whole time. Right after hell week, I took over as what they call the leading petty officer, the senior enlisted of the class. So I was the— The only guy that had a watch. So

if anything was, if we were late to getting to any evolution, it was my fault. Or one of the students did something wrong. It was mine. It's your fault.

fault. Or one of the students did something wrong. It was mine. It's your fault.

Yeah. And, you know, I had a great class leader, Clay Tippins, was such a motivator. But me... You know, being a little bit older, more mature, and understanding what

motivator. But me... You know, being a little bit older, more mature, and understanding what the instructors, you know, wanted out of the class as far as, you know, we policed ourselves so that the instructors, they saw us doing it so they didn't have to. And Clay was a great motivator. And we had one of the biggest classes

to. And Clay was a great motivator. And we had one of the biggest classes to ever graduate just because we had a tight group of guys. And even the instructors, you know, they come to the class leader and the, you know, and the, you know, the senior enlisted guy in the class, say, hey, we know there's guys hiding in the numbers that you guys know who the weak links are. We want

some names. And I'm just like, I mean him both. So just like, who in the hell are we to call out one of our classmates? I don't even know if I belong here. That's right. We didn't give them any names. We had a test to see if you see your character as far as snitching, or do they really want those names? I felt they really wanted those names. Maybe that's why I

names. Maybe that's why I graduated as far as a senior guy going through. They're like, okay, he's dedicated to the team. Anyway, I was... I'm proud of that time

the team. Anyway, I was... I'm proud of that time in my class. Did they have a program at the time where you could come right off the streets to be a SEAL? Did you have 18, 19, 20-year-olds? Oh,

yeah. We had some young guys that were making poor decisions sometimes or whatever, getting in trouble and stuff like that. Just young and not taking it as seriously as they should. And, uh, you get, I think you get a little bit older, uh,

they should. And, uh, you get, I think you get a little bit older, uh, as you should. And you look back and this is a lot of grace. You,

you don't give people, you know, especially when, when you're in at the time. Yeah.

And I think back, uh, and I'm like, man, when I was 18, 19 years old for those guys to have, you know, for one to just the razor hand and go through that. I was blowing up mailboxes with them. Any of the, no way. They were blowing stuff up too. Yeah. Yeah. maybe a little more

way. They were blowing stuff up too. Yeah. Yeah. maybe a little more mature, but you're asking a lot of those guys. Yeah, it is. And you have to, I don't know, in a weird way, you have to grade them on the same scale as everyone else, but it's also hard to because they're not an E6 in the Navy. You have to give them a little bit of a I don't

know what's a lot of back. What do you think about, you know, those, those young of people going through the SEAL training? Yeah, we had some young guys going through, you know, 18, 19 years old, but I'm going to say the average was somewhere around 23. And, um, a lot of them had college degrees and a little bit more mature, knew what they kind of wanted and, um, and we're a little

better prepared. But then when we, you know, as we progressed, you know, as far

better prepared. But then when we, you know, as we progressed, you know, as far as we got better at selection, or at least we thought we were getting better at selection, and we were trying to prep them way more before they got the buds. Yeah. And so that we get a higher output at the end. And we

buds. Yeah. And so that we get a higher output at the end. And we

haven't cracked that nut yet if, you know, what type of character gets through.

It's always tough to try to crack that nut because of the... the

name of the seals is always going to attract people for good and worse.

That's the truth about it. You know, that, that, that massive name comes with, comes with, comes with a lot. And, and we, we talked about this earlier. I'm not

against people writing books and I'm not against people making movies. I, I actually might surprise people. I, I go the other way with it. I'm okay with it. And

surprise people. I, I go the other way with it. I'm okay with it. And

we, yeah, we had in the, I could be wrong. Late 60s, early 70s, we had John Wayne and the Green Berets. And it was one of the best recruiting tools the Green Berets ever had. In the 80s, we had Navy SEALs. Charlie Sheen. Charlie Sheen. We had Top Gun. Even though we're not talking about

SEALs. Charlie Sheen. Charlie Sheen. We had Top Gun. Even though we're not talking about special operations community. But we're talking about they make a difference. They make the job look exciting and something I want to be part of. You have to give these young men something to... To look up to and look forward to and want to be. Have you ever seen the movie The Rock? Yeah. Navy Seals versus Marine Raiders

be. Have you ever seen the movie The Rock? Yeah. Navy Seals versus Marine Raiders or Recon or something? Oh, my God. Yeah, we get massacred as far as we...

I watched that scene at like eight years old. Yeah, they come diving in and they pop up out of the water, but then they got red lasers pointing all over the place. It's just like, let's give ourselves a weight right as soon as we should. That's the Hollywood, right? That's the Hollywood, which is great. I have no

we should. That's the Hollywood, right? That's the Hollywood, which is great. I have no issues with it, but reality is... But who's their military advisor during this? That's always

what irritates me during military movies. There's so many people that you can find someone to... You know that there was an advisor there that where we don't do that.

to... You know that there was an advisor there that where we don't do that.

And they were like, eh, we got to sell the movie though. So it looks sexy with all the red lasers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So going back, I don't mind it, but if it's going to be Hollywood, that's fine. Be a lie. You know,

dramatize it. Be Hollywood. This is a story. This isn't what happened. But if you're going to put your name on it and say, this is what happened, this is the true story, and then come to find out, and it really goes back to intent, that you really self-promoted yourself, and it's a bunch of lies that That's where I have a problem with it. And I agree 100%. You know, basically the false

narrative that gets pushed out there sometime is most of the time covering up the real story. And we'll get into plenty of that. I want to just move

real story. And we'll get into plenty of that. I want to just move quickly to your first, you put on your trident. It's got to be a day you'll never forget. Well, you know, back then, you know, luckily since I was the LPO of the class, they said, okay, you can kind of, we've got all these, we've got all these teams that's got to be filled. Which coast do you want?

What team? And at the time team to seal team two had the best reputation probably still does. And, and, and I was just like, okay, that's the next ring to go for. So I went to seal team two, not as a seal yet.

You're just basically there and you're, you know, you got a year of probation of them putting you through the ringers to say, okay, you made it through buds. That

doesn't mean shit. You know, you're, you're at ground zero again. And now it's time to start. And, um, And then you wait a little bit and you're basically helping

to start. And, um, And then you wait a little bit and you're basically helping out train the SEALs. You're being role players. You're doing, you're trying to prove your worth. And then you go to what they call STT. And this is a SEAL

worth. And then you go to what they call STT. And this is a SEAL tactical training. And I never shot so much and I never blew up so much

tactical training. And I never shot so much and I never blew up so much shit. And just like, I mean, we were blowing up buses. We were blowing up

shit. And just like, I mean, we were blowing up buses. We were blowing up frigging, you know, you name it. We blew it up and we just work with explosives. Did you deploy before that course at all? Nope. Non-deployable? Yeah. You're non-deployable. And

explosives. Did you deploy before that course at all? Nope. Non-deployable? Yeah. You're non-deployable. And

if you, and it was probably, You know, this prior 9-1-1, so as far as it was really not much going on. But the only work that was going on was SEAL Team 2 was doing it in Bosnia and that type stuff. And so,

you know, I go to STT, you know, which, you know, it took three or four months before you go there. When you graduate STT, then you're kind of, you know, you're ranking, you know, going through the different platoons or looking, okay, who performed really well at STT. And I was the honor man there. So there's just like, there's a winter warfare platoon, which is the next kind of pinnacle. If you're

at SEAL Team 2, they were known for winter warfare. So you got all the skiing and all the, you know, cold weather training and got to go to Alaska and, you know, learn how to survive in that environment and how to, you know, do your job as a SEAL in that environment. So it was, it was huge stuff. I'm just drinking from a fire hoses and gobbling up as much as this,

stuff. I'm just drinking from a fire hoses and gobbling up as much as this, you know, knowledge that I possibly can. Yeah. And, You know, just a few short years later, the whole country and the whole special operations seal community, everything was about to change. Oh, yeah. This pre-9-11 this year, but Bosnia, which was the big thing at the time, was going to be nothing compared to what you

guys are about to get called on to do. And honestly, up until that time, seals weren't really being utilized in too many real-world operations, and we started cutting our teeth on some... you know, snatches that we did in Bosnia. We had great success and we kind of like, okay, these guys aren't, you know, they can handle themselves on land and, you know, on the water a little bit. So we kind of

started proving ourselves worthy. And then, you know, well, before 9-11, you know, Saddam, we had embargoes on Saddam Hussein. So we were doing shipboardings at the time and any ships that were coming out of the Tigris River, that weren't sanctioned slash oil for food. They would try to come out in the middle of the night, basically at a high tide. And they would try to get

out and get into Iranian waters as fast as possible. So we're boarding. They're all,

these ships are welded shut. They got barbed wire all over them. And you don't know what you're going to, you know, you don't know what's waiting inside when you finally get inside this damn thing, but you're trying to get control of that ship and turn it away from Iranian waters before you had an international incident. And

so- we were doing real world boardings at the time. And that was at the time, that was the only, besides Bosnia, the only real world type stuff was going on. I luckily I got to do several of those. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Cause

on. I luckily I got to do several of those. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Cause

like I said, before not, there wasn't a whole lot of real world stuff. Yeah.

And honestly, VBSS is, is something that we practice and practice when we are good at. And you know, it's, you know, recently we lost two seals and, you know,

at. And you know, it's, you know, recently we lost two seals and, you know, doing VBSS and, um, There's something not right about that story. I'm not sure. It

doesn't make any sense for two seals to drown. And so there's something wrong there.

And it'll get exposed at some point, but there's something not right. Well,

it's ironic you say that. You would think you'd get exposed at some point, but they don't. And I really don't know how it works. Go back to this, beating this dead horse. You would think Rob O'Neill would have been called out for not being the shooter of Osama bin Laden.

And after all this time, we've done our due diligence of exposing it. It's not

just us. Other SEALs have said it. But it doesn't really gain traction.

And you would think the higher-ups or the Navy or someone would care about the truth, but they don't. Yeah, somebody should. And call out what the actual story. They

don't have to do the real name as far as, but actually stand up and say, you know, Out of the three people that are saying, well, two people that are saying they're doing it and another guy that's been told, you know, I've heard done it, you know, as far as, and I've heard it right from Rob that, you know, that he's done it. So even a SEAL, you know, not being at

that command, I don't know what the truth is. And which is, it just blows my mind. It's just not, it basically embarrasses the whole community. And

my mind. It's just not, it basically embarrasses the whole community. And

it's a small, like we talked about earlier, it's a small thing. The truth is within that community. Yeah, it's definitely within the community, and the higher-ups know it. And

why they are choosing not to expose it baffles me. There's got to be something else that happened on that target that they're hiding more so than who shot Osama Bin Laden. And I'll tell you right now, those guys knew way in advance as far as there was guys that knew way in advance, and they were already prepping with a book, They were already prepping with video games and they were all

basically, you know, marketing themselves as far as how they're going to profit off of this situation. And it's, it's the branding part of the seal community that's

this situation. And it's, it's the branding part of the seal community that's taking and corrupted our good name is something that all good seals need to stand up and call out and start fighting. Cause it, cause if they don't do that, you know, The public doesn't have any confidence in us. You guys don't have

any confidence in us. If we can't clean our own house, then how could you guys even trust us to do anything outside our house? I heard it was part of a story that you were in. It was the news special that I saw where they talked about it, but you didn't really give your input or they didn't air it or I didn't see it. But the SEALs contributing to Call of Duty

as liaisons and I guess where they put the suit on and they actually get their movements, is that... as detrimental as they made it sound well whenever you expose your tactics techniques and procedures and there's too many guys that are seals that are on youtube showing how we enter rooms and how we do this and how we do when you expose those you know techniques out to the to everybody yeah

the bad guys are going to utilize those against other good guys your cops as far as there's like okay this is you know the This is going to if I'm going to get raided, this is how I'm going to counter it because I get to watch this YouTube video of these Navy SEALs. Show me how I did this stuff. So these guys that are out on podcasts or on YouTube exposing our

this stuff. So these guys that are out on podcasts or on YouTube exposing our techniques, tactics and procedures are killing team guys and killing Green Berets and killing Rangers and killing cops. So it is detrimental as far as it really hurts.

And it exposed. And why are they doing it? They're doing it for a monetary gain, which is fucking sad. And I'm, you said it, but I'm a, I'm a make sure everyone understands this because it boggles my mind. We'll see it even on this. And they'll say, well, isn't that ironic? A guy on a podcast calling

on this. And they'll say, well, isn't that ironic? A guy on a podcast calling out other people on podcasts. Yep. Here, here's what we are saying. The difference is, and I said it before, I don't mind people coming out and telling their stories.

I think they should tell their stories. It's why you're telling your story. And, and,

Are you lying about your story? And is there anything in your story that you're giving away TTPs that you shouldn't do? Yeah. And you're basically exchanging money and fame and followers for, for, for secrets. Yeah. And not, I have a problem with that. Huge. It's huge. And, and if you don't come out, you know, and, and, and talk about it and expose it, then who's going to. Yeah. And,

and hopefully shame them where they stop. And that everybody gets on there and starts bashing them, say, you moron, as far as stop doing what you're doing. You're not

bettering yourself. You're not bettering the community. You're doing nothing but hurting the United States.

So let's, I mean, right on the heels of that, let's get into Operation Red Wings. Yeah. I think it's, what better time, you know.

Red Wings. Yeah. I think it's, what better time, you know.

Get your refreshments. Hit pause, get your refreshments. Yeah.

the we've since the rob o'neill episode we get a lot of requests you know call out this guy call this guy yeah yeah one that's really not why we started this was not to was it's it's become something that we're okay with doing because you know if you're not going to police your own i sure as hell don't want someone else you know calling out our community yeah i believe

it's it's our job that's why i'm on here as far as kind of representing that, hey, there are guys in the teams that are trying to do the right thing, trying to call out their guys. But the level of corruption and the level of guys that are basically in charge are squashing basically that

from happening. So it's at the highest. Anybody that's an E8 enlisted and above

from happening. So it's at the highest. Anybody that's an E8 enlisted and above or an 05 or above know about these guys. systemic problems that we're having within the teams. And if they don't start calling it out and dealing with it in-house, the teams are going to keep deteriorating to where you've got multiple people saying they shuttle some of them and multiple guys that are leaking our tactics, techniques, and procedures

on the open internet. And I'll find what's not ironic because it's exactly what I would suspect is whether it's the UBL raid or Roberts Ridge, it's never the the SEALs, the team guys, or any other special operations teams that are coming out to us and be like, hey, that's not true. You shouldn't have done that.

They're always behind us going, yep, that's how we understood it as well. So glad

you did that. It's these people who have put these liars up on a pedestal, and when they hear something different, they're like, wait, how dare you do that? Yeah. How dare I not do that? How dare I know the truth

do that? Yeah. How dare I not do that? How dare I know the truth or know what happened and allow it down without saying anything? Yeah, especially when there's lives were lost and the Gold Star families are wondering just like, wait a minute, you know, you guys are supposed to be tip of the spear, the most elite and, you know, things along those lines. And when, you know, they finally get the

real story like Roberts Ridge, where obviously, you know, as far as once they were able to work, you know, from the pred feed and know who was who, Brett Slab basically lied to our community, lied to, you know, the world saying that he did all these great things when actually it was Chapman. And, you know, and we wouldn't have known that if the Air Force didn't try to push to get

them the recognition that they needed, because we, even in our community, we were lied to for that long. And it took so long for the truth to come out.

And then you got to look at, well, who pushed them to, you know, look at all the things that went wrong with Roberts Ridge. First thing, as a recce team, you never land on the X. Landing on the X as far as, you only do that hostage rescue when you had a limited amount of time and you don't have, you know, you need to basically just land. Very time sensitive. Very time

sensitive. So as a recce team, you basically do a lot of false insertions and you do a lot of humping to get to the location where you need to.

So to land on the X is just stupid and should never happen. And when

he, when Slab tries to, up at 24 hours, Tim Szymanski says, no, you need to go now. First thing, they didn't even let everybody else know that they were even inserting on there. Everybody else knew just like, Hey, that's the don't, there's, there's stuff up there that we're not sure of. You can't land a helicopter there. And

they've tried to land a helicopter right on in the right into a hornet's nest.

And we lost, you know, a lot of lives. Yeah. Good men over an ego that, And somebody that wanted to push other people to do their bidding as far as pushing, you know, Tim Szymanski pushing his guys. He wasn't on that helicopter.

He didn't go out there. And so, and then they lied about it for so long. It's so embarrassing. And poor Matt, Matt Cublin, not that he cares. He

long. It's so embarrassing. And poor Matt, Matt Cublin, not that he cares. He

knows that he's right, but he takes a lot of heat rounds for not having your background. And a lot of people are like, who? Who are you, you know,

your background. And a lot of people are like, who? Who are you, you know, to, you know, to call us out, to say this, which is, which is sad because we should have, we should have been the first ones to do it and we should own it right from the get go. Once we learned of the truth and for him to stand up for a high school buddy, you know, that he's

standing up a seal commander who got killed. I'm not going to say suicide because I don't believe it. Got killed in country. Nobody heard the shot. They, you know, Joe Price, as far as in, You know, you talk, if you want to talk about a seal that was somebody that all seals basically looked up to and said,

okay, that's the example that I want to follow. A hundred percent squared away. Great

family, man. Every time you saw him at the Christmas party or whatever, or you saw him at a family event where the kids were there, his daughter or the wife, he was interacting. And basically you could tell that he loved his family. And

I worked for Joe, you know, when he was my task unit commander, uh, When I heard that, you know, somebody said he committed suicide while in country, I was just like, bullshit. And then, and I didn't know what was wrong with it. I

didn't know. But as far as I knew there was something wrong. And then I didn't know much about it until Matt Kubler, who fricking stood up and just like, I'm standing up for this guy when no other team guy did. And I'm fucking, you know, good on him. Good on him. So the, well, and I'm, So we got a lot of people saying, hey, expose this guy, expose that

guy. And there's certain people that just because you don't like him doesn't mean they

guy. And there's certain people that just because you don't like him doesn't mean they didn't. Yep. Goggins. He's a name that for those who comes up. Guess what? He

didn't. Yep. Goggins. He's a name that for those who comes up. Guess what? He

may be loud. He may be successful. And I don't care unless he's lying for profit. Yeah. I don't know everything about David Goggins, but I haven't seen anywhere where

profit. Yeah. I don't know everything about David Goggins, but I haven't seen anywhere where I believe he's lying for profit. Yep. And so I'm not just going to go.

I haven't heard a negative thing within my community about them. We're not here just to just just crabs in a bucket. Just pull down anyone that's successful. Yeah. It's

not us. And honestly, that's why I'm on here. You know, why I came on to your podcast, because you're not about seal bashing or bashing anybody. You're just, you know, just like, hey, I want to understand this a little bit better. Can you

explain to me, you know, because it doesn't make sense from my technical knowledge of how we operate as, you know, tier one or whatever ability that you're operating in.

Right. As far as that doesn't make sense. And you just ask questions and they, and they should be easy questions. They should be easy questions. The truth is easy.

Easy. And so I get asked about red wings a lot. Yeah. I believe

I know the truth about red wings, but at the end of the day, that was not something that I was going to venture out on my own. It's much

different than, Um, we'll just say, you know, Rob O'Neill, the UBL raid. Yeah. No

one died on that. It was, it was a very straightforward, you know, easy one to go down. Yes. This was the truth. This is what you said. They're not

the same. Yeah. And, and, and you, you're contradicting our own story and you're making money off, off of a lie. That's easy for me. This one was harder. I

didn't want to go down this road. As you can see, it's a lot more complicated. Yeah. A lot of deaths and a lot of families involved. And until I

complicated. Yeah. A lot of deaths and a lot of families involved. And until I talked to you about it, it really wasn't on our... And I talked to you about this before. I wasn't going to do it. And after talking to you, I said, you know, I think I'm so glad that someone is willing to tell the truth. So let's get into that. And what I want to talk about first is

truth. So let's get into that. And what I want to talk about first is what got us there and start to... understand the mission itself. And I learned something about this mission and feel free to correct the record. Um, as you understand it, but I, um, lone survivor read the book, ate it up. Um,

there, even as a young guy there, there, you know, as a, as a Como green beret, there's some things on the Como side. I was like, that doesn't make sense, but I don't have the experience yet to, to really, you know, know why that doesn't make sense. But as a young guy, some of that stuff didn't make sense. It's a great movie. And we'll get into that. But if it was true,

sense. It's a great movie. And we'll get into that. But if it was true, it would be awesome. But unfortunately, it's not true. But what I didn't know was this was a Marine mission. The objective itself, the high-value target they were going after was a Marine target. They wanted to go... It wasn't as high as we played up in the movie or the book. Correct. It was... a run of the mill

target that they wanted because it was in there. It was their AO. And he

was the one that was causing a little bit of heartache and everything. And so

they were going to go after them and they wanted to put their own recce element in. And so as they were looking for aviation support to put in their

element in. And so as they were looking for aviation support to put in their own recce element to do their own target, the loom cycle was so low. They

were told, no, you can't use these helicopters. The only helicopters are going to fly in this low loom is the 160th. And so, they reach out to the 160th and they say, hey, can you insert our guys at this place during this illumination?

And the 160th said, we can. It's what we do. But we can't use your guys. I'm paraphrasing this. But we can't use your guys. We support special operations. And

guys. I'm paraphrasing this. But we can't use your guys. We support special operations. And

so, that's how the SEALs pretty much get involved. because the 160th work under special operations command. Yeah. And so that's this Marine target and the illumination is really what

operations command. Yeah. And so that's this Marine target and the illumination is really what brought in the, the seals. It's not like it was a massive, like high Afghanistan, high level target mission that only the seals were tracking. They basically piggybacked a Marine operation to do this. Yeah. And so that's what brings them into this mission. Correct.

The, the, the only difference is that, you know, the seals kind of, control of the 160 if so they had to basically say hey can we use your assets and seal commander basically at the time says no but we can assist by putting our guys for the recce and you know and kind of getting good eyes on the target for you and so that's how it kind of started

off developing so with that with that background you don't want to just take us from there that's that's how the seals get involved okay so they They get the mission. It's an SDV team, which are really good at recce. And the

mission. It's an SDV team, which are really good at recce. And the

terrain is so rough that they have to fast rope in. So I hope that they did a couple of false insertions. But when they finally do the insertion, as far as they fast rope down to get to the location, but for some reason, the fast rope got cut and dropped onto the ground. So now they've got to deal with fast rope on the ground as far as dealing with that. I don't

know what they did to cache it or bury it or what they did. I

don't know if that helped compromise them or not. It's definitely not what you want.

It's just not what should happen on the ground. So that's the first kind of mistake that kind of happens. They get on target. They're on target. They're making comm checks. They're doing what they need to do, and they're watching the target. And not

checks. They're doing what they need to do, and they're watching the target. And not

long on being on the ground is when the goat herd is up and compromise them. They've already been making comm checks, and they got – You know, now this

them. They've already been making comm checks, and they got – You know, now this is where it turns into Marcus's story. And Marcus's story changes. You know, it's not, you know, first, you know, it changes and the book is wrong and the movie is wrong. But, you know, when he's talking to us after a couple of days

is wrong. But, you know, when he's talking to us after a couple of days of getting out of there, you know, we're trying to figure out, you know, what the truth is. And now that they're on the ground, they're compromised, they basically hold, our SOPs is basically zip time, hold them there, make comms, say, hey, When's the extract going to happen as far as, and you even leave them

zip tied because they can basically, you know, if they're zip tied to a tree, they can rub it up and down and get the break. Those zip ties, you know, 10 minutes max. It's easy to get out of that stuff. Once you, you, you got some time to work on them. Right. And then extract out of there and say, you know, that happens. Well, this SDV team, when they came in the

country, you know, and the in brief with the team 10 guys, was, hey, don't be a bunch of pussies like the last SDV group or whatever. If you get compromised by some goat hunters, don't call for a QRF. So that was in the back of their mind, you know, as far as just like, okay, I don't want to make, you know, a bigger deal than what it is. So they let the,

you know, according to Marcus, which is the only one, the lone survivor that, you know, we got to go off of, they get compromised, they let the, you know, the goat hunters go. And, of course, they're trying to make comms. for some reason they're not making comms. They've been making comms up to this point, no problem at all, but now they're not making comms. Why aren't they making comms?

He's getting a good bounce back more likely. He was a solid frigging communicator. And

so when you're doing SATCOM, if you're not reaching your command, you can basically bounce it back to yourself to make sure you're hitting the satellite and it's coming back to yourself. So you know you're getting to the satellite, you just don't know why

to yourself. So you know you're getting to the satellite, you just don't know why the other side of the radio, who you're trying to reach, Are they manning the talk? Is there somebody at the radio listening to it? And what I was told,

talk? Is there somebody at the radio listening to it? And what I was told, and I wasn't there, I was in Iraq at the time, as far as they said that those guys were laid up, their next comm window isn't until this time, and there were some guys, we play a sport called speedball. It's kind of like frisbee football with a football instead of a frisbee so that we don't hit each

other and bang each other and kill each other because we're so competitive that we don't want the contact to happen. And they were playing speedball and the comms weren't being manned properly at the time. So now you've got these guys that are out there trying to, hey, we've been compromised. They might have let the goat herders go sooner than they should have. And they didn't have comms yet. But they're moving to

where the helos can kind of extract to get them out. And at some point, basically, because of the delay of comms, they finally get... you know, compromise fully, not a soft compromise. Now they got guys that are actually after them, trying to, you know, shoot them and kill them. So now their troops in contact. When their troops in contact, they're like, fuck, nobody's listening to radio. It's hard. Now that we're moving,

I'm not sure if we're getting, you know, good sat, calm communication. That's when Murph, supposedly Murph, this is all the trail story, gets on the sat phone and he can't reach anybody at the talk on sat phone. And he has to call all the way back to Virginia Beach. He calls all the way back to Virginia Beach, Group 2, number that we all know, basically calls that quarter deck, says, hey, this

is Lieutenant Murphy. I am troops in contact. Get a hold of the talk. This

is our location. We need help now. And they finally get a hold of that talk. When they get a hold of that talk, they basically like, holy shit, we

talk. When they get a hold of that talk, they basically like, holy shit, we didn't realize all the shit was going on. Now, whenever you have troops outside the compound, outside the wire, as far as You got to have a med plan.

You got to have a comm plan. You got to have a QRF that's on standby, ready to assist you if you need it. Instead of basically launching the QRF that's on standby, ready to go, that know that area as far as the Marines that would already, that was their target, they decide to throw a bunch of SEALs onto two Chinooks and basically try to launch to go save their guys. And all

those guys on that helicopter, fucking warriors, fucking want to get into the fight as fast as I possibly can. leadership that pushed them to do that, you know, as far as going in without close in air support, which is, and then let me back up before they even launch to leave Rob O'Neill. One of them, as far

as, and I believe the other guy's name was Reed on tier one operators that were basically working in the same compound there said, yeah, we'll jump on and help you step up to the fucking plate. And they were ready to go on. And

just as they're getting ready, they're on the helicopter. They're trying to go. And, another

member comes out from that group, says, pulls him off the helicopter and just basically, you can't go, get off the helicopter. And we're just like, and the guys that were on that helicopter, he got pulled off of it. Like, what the fuck is that? You know, kind of a little bit strange. Well, you know, even back then

that? You know, kind of a little bit strange. Well, you know, even back then after I heard the story, I'm just like, that doesn't make, did the fucking, you know, did they know that there were SA-7s in the area? And Rob admitted on a podcast, yep, that, that, They knew there was SA-7s in the area. Now, did

they tell the SEALs that were on the two Chinooks that there were SA-7s in the area and that we should not be launching to this? I don't know if they told them or did not tell them. Either way, somebody, some head needs a role there for that decision. Say, hey, these guys can't die, but these guys can.

I mean, I'm pulling it down to its simplest form, but essentially that's what it is. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack there. Let's roll back for just a second.

is. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack there. Let's roll back for just a second.

Okay. As, as a commo guy and someone in, in recce, uh, that I did for a long time in my career, both those jobs, here's the two things that, that, uh, that don't make sense to me. You always have a compromise plan. It's,

it's, it's one of the, it's, it's all the way back from the Gulf war with the SAS, uh, to, to SF missions, uh, getting compromise has, has, has been your, your, your number one problem. And for them not to have a, a solid plan, you just, you just, you just briefed a

solid plan on that. Why they, if it's true, why they let him go baffles me. Yeah. Absolutely baffles me. And it's, this isn't me, you know, second

baffles me. Yeah. Absolutely baffles me. And it's, this isn't me, you know, second guessing dead men, but this, it, it, I have questions and there's nothing wrong with having questions. Yeah. Yeah. When you say let them go, he's talking about letting the

having questions. Yeah. Yeah. When you say let them go, he's talking about letting the goat herders go. Yeah. And that's, we don't know what, unfortunately I, I can't trust what Marcus says because you know, well, we'll get into why, why you don't trust what market says, but we'll leave it there for now. So yeah, I don't know what exactly happened with the goat herders or even if that even, you know,

the second thing that the Como plan, um, I do remember in the book him talking about they didn't want to go to cell phone because it was unsecured and they were having SATCOM issues and SATCOM secure and they didn't want to go to an unsecured form of communication. Yeah. As a Green Beret in

Afghanistan, I whipped out a Roshan cell phone all the time when I couldn't make communication. Oh, yeah. And you have code words so you don't have to talk in

communication. Oh, yeah. And you have code words so you don't have to talk in the open. They're sending texts with, you know, with, yeah. And the other thing that

the open. They're sending texts with, you know, with, yeah. And the other thing that I've never worried about. Execution plan. Yeah. I don't worry about unsecured comms for, and this is, you know, you wouldn't know this unless he did the job. Yeah. We

have teams whose job it is to intercept communications. And when you know what those teams are and you know, the gear that it takes to do real time, uh, intercepted communications. Yeah. It is at a national level. The Taliban do not have,

intercepted communications. Yeah. It is at a national level. The Taliban do not have, have this agreed. And they, Even if you want to argue, yes, well, you know, the Russians were deeply embedded into the cell phone network. That's fine. Yeah. By the

time they get that communication, you know, get it back, assess it. push the information back forward towards like tangible, you know, uh,

assess it. push the information back forward towards like tangible, you know, uh, Intel, you're talking days. Like it's not something you have to worry about during this operation. So I will whip out a cell phone in a heartbeat. And so that's

operation. So I will whip out a cell phone in a heartbeat. And so that's just something else that just doesn't add up. So I have questions. Yeah. Yeah. And

I agree with you as far as it doesn't add up. So this, you know, and that's the book. And so what you got to know is that Marcus didn't write that book. That book was basically, you know, Something that was pushed. So Marcus

is on his first deployment as a new guy and trying to do the best job he gets. And he gets in his first firefight and gets overwhelmed. And there's

a pred feed of him running the whole time. This is before the helicopters come in to rescue him. This is the operation when they get contacted.

First, they get compromised, soft compromise. supposed by the goat hooders. Then they get into a full on firefight and that they're running for their lives. And they're trying to make comms back to the talk to get a QRF to come rescue. Now, Marcus

says this is an overwhelming force that, that they just cannot. There's no evidence of it. I've, I've heard different numbers. What, what numbers have you heard of this overwhelming

it. I've, I've heard different numbers. What, what numbers have you heard of this overwhelming force? Well, Marcus's story was a hundred plus. I've heard smaller.

force? Well, Marcus's story was a hundred plus. I've heard smaller.

Yeah. I've heard eight. I've, I've heard as many as 15. I've heard eight. I

will take, I will double those numbers to 15 or 16. Give them the benefit of the doubt. And I will still take a small SEAL team against that. Guys who've got superior weapons can shoot pretty, should be able to shoot

against that. Guys who've got superior weapons can shoot pretty, should be able to shoot pretty accurately, have good optics on their stuff. And, you know, the only thing is supposedly they had the higher ground and they had... you know, no higher ground counts for a lot. It does. It does. And surprise counts for a lot. And it

does. And Marcus to be overwhelmed is, you know, in his first firefight, you know, I can't fault the guy, you know, for that, as far as the, you know, him running and, you know, even in his own words on Anderson Cooper, he says that he heard Murph yelling his name, that he needs help Marcus. I, you know, and he said, you know, on Anderson Cooper, you know, I put my gun down,

covered up my ears, and I quit right then. I'm a coward. And just like, and that's the real story. He left his buddies and quit and ran.

That's, and unfortunately, that's the real, I wish it wasn't true. I wish Marcus, you know, and that's the story that he told us when he first got out, when we debriefed him. He wasn't, you know, he was walking around on crutches. He walked

himself onto the helo. So when the helo came in to extract him out, You know, he walked himself on it. So he wasn't in this dire straits and he wasn't crawling for seven miles like in the book, in the movie. This book was written for him to change the narrative because it was embarrassing for us. He had

he was given an ultimatum just like, do you want to be known as a SEAL who quit running away and left his buddies? Or do you want to be a millionaire? And he chose that. I'm going to be a millionaire. So we're not

a millionaire? And he chose that. I'm going to be a millionaire. So we're not buying this narrative that there was a massive running gunfight down the mountain where everyone goes dry on their mags. Yeah. Marcus has supposedly had pretty much full mags. I got that from the Green Beret team that rescued him. Yep.

full mags. I got that from the Green Beret team that rescued him. Yep.

So you got the Green Beret team. So that Green Beret team and Rangers basically, they hit the crash site. And they're the first ones to the crash site where Red Wings, as far as which shouldn't have launched. They went in without close air support. A lot of, you know, things went wrong with that, doing that, you

air support. A lot of, you know, things went wrong with that, doing that, you know, trying to cover up our mistake of, of our guys getting contacted and us not extracting them before they got into this big firefight. So they're up there trying to pick up the bodies, you know, as far as of my comrades trying to do the best, just like, Holy shit, it's rough terrain scattered all over the place.

And, um, Then they get word that somebody's keying an embitter down at this village.

So they strip off their stuff. They get as light as they possibly can. And

Green Beret and a couple of rangers, they hightail it down there, exposing themselves to a lot of dangers because there were bad guys in the area. And they get all the way down to the village. They start clearing the village, and the villagers bring them out. And there's Marcus. And the Green Beret goes up, and Marcus's like, okay, where's the rest of your guys? And Marcus tells them they're all dead. Just

like they're all, you know, all of them dead. And there's like, they're all dead.

Well, where are they at? Where, you know, where do we find them? I don't

know, but up on the mountain somewhere. So he's not being as helpful as he can. He just says they're all dead. So that information now gets pushed up to

can. He just says they're all dead. So that information now gets pushed up to higher command. If they're all dead, then let's not risk our force like these Green

higher command. If they're all dead, then let's not risk our force like these Green Berets and Rangers that ran down to rescue Marcus. Let's do a little bit more slow methodical, get more assets in there. You know, during day, basically, let's slow roll this to recover the bodies so we don't lose any more lives senselessly. Yeah.

So now they're looking for the bodies roughly where Marcus is trying to tell them.

It takes them a couple of days before they find Murph and they find Deeds, but they can't find Axel anywhere around that whole thing. And the whole time the Green Berets and Rangers say, hey, where's your rally point? which we all know as far as if shit hits the fan, you lose all your shit, you strip down to nothing. That's right. Get to this point here. It's part of your plan. It's

to nothing. That's right. Get to this point here. It's part of your plan. It's

part of the plan as far as where's your rally point and put out this marker, let us know that you're there. And, you know, and so they don't find Axel until like day 10. And they finally brought in some seals, other seals from Germany. They're trying to, you know, get, you know, as many bodies on it, trying

Germany. They're trying to, you know, get, you know, as many bodies on it, trying to find this stuff. And when they finally find Axel, as far as, and they finally, you know, it's like day eight, they finally tell the Green Braves and Rangers where the Sardot is, rally point, and they tell the seals that are there, because, you know, a lot of my buddies were on that thing that told

me the story, and they come up on Axel leaning against a tree, and at that time, it's day 10, and it looked like he'd only been dead a day, day and a half max. Wow. Marcus saying that he was dead caused it to slow roll where Axel maybe could have been saved. So that's the real story. And it's sad. And the only reason I got to expose it and

real story. And it's sad. And the only reason I got to expose it and tell it is because the Gold Star families and the families that want to know what actually happened. And then you got all these other seals that are changed the narrative that are making millions of dollars off of this false story. And there's a pred feed of Marcus running the whole time. And the reason why the story was

written for him or told for him is because the higher leadership said this would be bad for recruiting and this is going to embarrass us. And, well, the problem with that, just like with Roberts Ridge, and here's a connection with Roberts Ridge, and when they call back to Group 2, guess who's the deputy at Group 2 when they call back there who's going to basically get this communication and say, get a

hold of the talk and do what we need to do. Tim Szymanski. Tim Szymanski.

His name comes up a lot. His name does come up a lot. The same

guy that basically has been covering up Robert's Ridge of what actually happened there for probably at that point 10 years. However long it is. Don't quote me on it for sure. But who's a pro at covering shit up. And that's when the cover

for sure. But who's a pro at covering shit up. And that's when the cover up starts. With the Gold Star families, obviously they go through a roller coaster with

up starts. With the Gold Star families, obviously they go through a roller coaster with something like this. That whole operation, all the fallen seals. And

they have to digest... I hate saying the first story, but what they thought happened, are they shunned to just stay quiet or do they have a voice? Like I

want to know once and for all, what happened to my loved one? Yeah. So

what happens is they surround them with as many team guys. And if they're solid team guys, they're going to tell them the truth. And that's why the story is going to get, you know, out there eventually. It's because there's good team guys in there. Just like, this is bullshit. This isn't true. So let's back up

there. Just like, this is bullshit. This isn't true. So let's back up to the guys that were in the second helicopter. So you've got the two Chinooks that took off without a close-in air support package.

The helicopters didn't know exactly what they're getting into as far as trying to get to the location. They're getting close to being where they think the Durecki team is located when an SA-7 gets shot. And the guys that, because they're coming in close to land, as far as to fast rope their guys down to try to find Marcus and the rest of them. And all of a sudden this SA-7 and the

second helicopter flies through the smoke trail, as far as you see the spiraling smoke trail, and the gunner and two Hueys have caught up by this time and basically kind of witnessed what's going on. So now they see this surface-to-air missile basically take down the helicopter. The second helicopter sets down the helicopter. at a peak saying, fuck it, you know, we just, we saw it, we saw it hit, we saw it

lurch at 45 degrees, we saw the guys, some of the guys dump out it, but there's a chance that some of them are alive. So they sat down on the peak that's safe, a little bit further away, they come up with a plan how they're going to patrol and check for their guys. As they come up with this plan, right before they launch to start walking down there, they're ordered to come

back to base and leave those guys behind. I don't even know how you follow that order to some degree. Yeah. It's tough. Yeah. But then, you know, so then you got, you know, the close in air support that finally shows up. You got

the Pred that's overhead that's kind of watching, you know, what's happening on the ground.

They report looks like there's a gunfight on the ground. They report there's somebody with a VS-17 panel waving a VS-17 panel, which if, you know, the public doesn't know what that is, it's a red and orange flag that basically to identify. were

aircraft that are flying over that you could say, hey, here I am, this is my location, and all SEALs are carrying it either in their shoulder or somewhere on them in case if they shit hits the fan, they got a way to kind of like, hey, I'm friendly, don't shoot me for one, but also this is where I'm at. And all that stuff gets reported up, you know, and when that second

I'm at. And all that stuff gets reported up, you know, and when that second helicopter comes back and they talk to the intel, hey, this is what we saw.

We saw a spiraling thing. It went straight into the engine. And what And the senior leadership show up basically there that said, no, it wasn't an SA-7, even though the intel that you guys have all just dissected and basically come up with, yeah, that's it. That's the picture. That's exactly what we saw. Multiple people seeing it. And

that's it. That's the picture. That's exactly what we saw. Multiple people seeing it. And

the senior leadership there said, no, it was an RPG lucky shot. Do you understand what I'm saying? So let's talk about why the SA-7 matters. Matters,

yeah. So one, we're... We've already pulled people off the helicopter because of an SA-7. Yep. That's what Rob says. Yep. Well, back up

an SA-7. Yep. That's what Rob says. Yep. Well, back up even before that. Why didn't... We talked about this was a Marine mission.

Yeah. The main element, the main force in this was a Marine mission. Yeah. The

Marines had a QRF specifically for this. Yep. Guys who knew the area, guys who were physically conditioned into this area. They'd been here for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Why didn't they call them safe roads? New, you know, well, however they were going to get there. They knew, they knew a lot about the ALS because they were operating in it the whole time. Why don't you think they, they called in the Marine? If it's, it's on your, it's, it's on your, your, your, your, your, your,

Marine? If it's, it's on your, it's, it's on your, your, your, your, your, your, your, it's on your operation. Why didn't they call in the Marines as a QRF?

Yeah. Great question. I don't have, I don't have a solid answer. The only thing I can come up with, it was embarrassing. And so we were trying to, we were trying to bury that. We, Made so many mistakes up to this point, and we didn't want the rest of everybody else to know how incompetent we were on that one particular day, on that one particular mission, and those particular guys that were

making the leadership decisions. So we're walking down something here. So if that's the reason you didn't call on the Marines, and I can't think of another reason why you wouldn't call on the Marines. It was part of your plan. Yep. And because we're talking about a cover-up. And if you're not going to admit that it was an SA-7 and it hitting the engine, which you talked about, which is exactly what I

heard, that's important because RPGs aren't heat-seeking. They just randomly go where they go. Not

very accurate. Not very accurate. They don't go very far. They don't go very far either. And for this to hit the engine, the main heat source, is a

either. And for this to hit the engine, the main heat source, is a telltale sign that more than likely, just that alone, that this is an SA-7. I

got a good point. You know, if all those... They didn't cremate all the bodies like they did with extortion. And those bodies, if I was those families, I'd say, Hey, sorry, son, but I'm going to dig up your body and I'm going to see if there's any residue on it for, you know, the, the particular explosive that is basically from an SA seven. And if that residue is there, then I want

some fucking heads to roll. Yeah. And if you're going to cover, and if it's not, then as far as then somehow the information that, eyewitnesses saw was not accurate. All right. And if, and if you're going to, and if we can tangibly

accurate. All right. And if, and if you're going to, and if we can tangibly go down this road, that just the way the helicopter went down was a coverup.

It's pretty safe to assume everything else that, that you've talked about, which, which is why wouldn't they cover anything else up? Something that I want to tell you that just kind of corroborates your story. One of my, one of my bunk mates and, and Delta force selection was, was a ranger. Yeah. And he was on part of the recover team of those Rangers. And, you know, when you're at a selection, you

have a lot of downtime. And you're not allowed to kind of go and hang out with a lot of people. So you and your bunk mate become good friends.

Yeah. And so this operation comes up and he's telling me everything you just said. He's like, I was there. I even got to see some of the first

said. He's like, I was there. I even got to see some of the first reports that came up from Marcus Luttrell. He goes, we believe there was about a dozen people that overwhelmed him. We believe that it was a pretty quick firefight. The

guys that we saw all fell relatively close to each other. All of them had full mags. And Marcus Luttrell's first story account that he wrote up, because as soon

full mags. And Marcus Luttrell's first story account that he wrote up, because as soon as you get back, you're going to have to tell that story, was the story that you just gave, not the story that's part of that book. And that was my first experience of going, oh. Oh, really? Cause I read that. I love that book. Yeah. He's like, yeah, sorry to tell you, it's really not how it happened.

book. Yeah. He's like, yeah, sorry to tell you, it's really not how it happened.

Yeah. And it's, it's sad that it was sold as the truth and that, you know, the American public was duped and basically thinking that he's, and so he's made millions. He does, you know, lots of speaking engagements. He's basically, he was at the

millions. He does, you know, lots of speaking engagements. He's basically, he was at the Republican convention, you know, and it was all over false story that he's been able, over the, He's basically over the blood of his, you know, his teammates, his brothers. Brent, you said something. I know you're not a conspiracy guy.

I'm not. You'd rather just not deal with it. He, I know you wait for tan. I love conspiracy just like anybody else. Yeah. I hate it when it involves

tan. I love conspiracy just like anybody else. Yeah. I hate it when it involves the conspiracy theory is, is basically true and, and it, and it embarrasses my community.

But what is, is there anything to, or any merit to Rob being pulled off the bird? Cause every time it comes up, there's so much more important, tangible things

the bird? Cause every time it comes up, there's so much more important, tangible things to talk about. There isn't a lot of time to talk about conspiracies on why Rob was spared, but is there anything to that? Well, he was pulled off because his leadership at the tier one level knew that there was a high probability of SA sevens in the area. And he admitted this on a podcast and he's told

me this on the phone. So he was tier one already. He had just finished up green team or it was actually maybe even deployed at right. He was just transitioning into the, And a lot of those guys that were on the helicopter that he was on were basically some of them didn't get through green team or whatever.

So he was an asset. So he was, yeah, he was willing to step up to the plate. He didn't know what he was getting himself. And just like, just like those heroes that were in that helicopter that got shot down, they didn't, they weren't told that there was a high probability of this as far as for some reason, that information doesn't make it from,

to the ground force commander who's basically on that helicopter to basically be willing to put his life on the line. And if it did, I'd like to see where he was told and if he made that decision, but it's easy to blame a dead guy for all the mistakes. And I'm talking about Eric Christensen, who was the

commander that was on that helicopter. But Rob was pulled because of his status as a tier one. He was pulled because... They knew something. They knew that there was a high probability of an SAC. You're not going. They just said they pulled their own guys off. Okay. And I don't know if that information got to the

vanilla team or not. And, you know, so I'd like to know that. I say

this all the time. And I said it during the Rob O'Neill podcast. I think

Rob O'Neill's a hero. I think he's done hundreds and hundreds of missions the right way. And he's done amazing things. Yeah. And the fact that he was willing to

way. And he's done amazing things. Yeah. And the fact that he was willing to get on that helicopter ride, to go save teammates with little, no information, says a lot about Rob. I will give him credit for that. The other day doesn't give him a pass for the rest of his career, but I will give him credit for that. I got a couple questions for you.

for that. I got a couple questions for you.

Some of them we've kind of touched on, but it'll give you an opportunity if you want to expound on them anymore. We've talked a little bit about in a forum podcast about the the brand, you know, the, the seal Trident, we really, the seal, the Navy seals is a brand. Yeah. You know, it really is. Uh, and,

and I already said that before, and I don't necessarily mean that as, as a bad thing. There's, there's good things about a brand. There's a bad things. It can

bad thing. There's, there's good things about a brand. There's a bad things. It can

be bad things about a brand. I agree. Why is branding, um, the seal Trident a bad thing? So like you said, there's nothing wrong with having a good brand as long as it's earned honestly. And that if, And it doesn't overtake basically good operational procedures as far as following SOPs. And so if you

got guys that are trying to make a name for themselves, you know, basically put their guys out in harm's way so that they can basically get notoriety for what happens with their guys out on the battlefield. Those guys are pushing their guys into situations that in harm's way that they're not willing to put

themselves into. they want to capitalize monetarily as far as from their deeds and their

themselves into. they want to capitalize monetarily as far as from their deeds and their actions. So when you have somebody, you know, taking that as like, I want to

actions. So when you have somebody, you know, taking that as like, I want to brand myself and the SEAL community with this false narrative over the lives of your brother. And as far as that's when it comes. And

so what I started seeing and I started hearing is protect the brand. I'm just

like, You don't protect the brand by covering something up. You don't protect the brand by not exposing these lessons learned that these mistakes, these lives were lost.

Let's make sure we don't make these mistakes again. And by making this false narrative of the story, because the brand is more important than your brother, your brother. And

when that overtakes that, there's a problem with the brand. And that's what a lot of these guys, Tim Szymanski as far as, and other ones are more worried about the brand and how they can capitalize monetarily from these deeds and pushing their guys out to do stuff they shouldn't have. He pushed

Slab to land on top of that mountain. Slab wanted to roll it 24. Slab

lands on the X, gets guys killed, gets another helicopter in there, gets guys killed, leaves Chapman behind. And they lie to us because they're trying to protect the brand.

And so there's no lessons learned from that. Absolutely. And we talk about this on the first responder side as well as the military side. The reason we talk about things that went wrong is we have to or else we'll relive them. We'll make

the same mistakes. And by turning this into a cover-up and a profiteering, that's a problem all by itself. Yeah. Red Wings turns into extortion 17 because the same exact thing happens. Absolutely. We should have learned so much. The truth would have allowed us to learn so much more and become better. Yeah. And those, you know, that

air crew, the air crew that in the area, as far as if they have that information, they prepare for it. They prep for it. They understand it. They know

it's a threat. And if you don't know, there's a chance of you getting shot down in a big, slow moving area. And I hated being on them. I hated

being on helicopters. You're just vulnerable. And my hat's off to those guys that do it day in and day out. But those guys would have prepared better if that information would have gotten to it. I feel like it would have changed their flight plan completely. Change it. And I think you just talked about this a little bit. But what's the connection between Roberts Ridge and

Red Wings if there is one? Yeah, them changing the story and branding took priority over lessons learned and capturing the mistakes. And so if we allow this to keep happening, we allow this branding and this false narrative to keep getting pushed, more team guys are going to die. And unfortunately, it takes more team

guys dying before NSW does anything about it. we should be cleaning our house and I hope this is just a start and I hope this encourages a lot of the SEALs to call out and rightfully so the guys that are basically hurting the teens by all this branding and exposure of TTPs and SOPs. Other than the exposing and the money making and the fame, is there really

SOPs. Other than the exposing and the money making and the fame, is there really a crime epidemic in the SEALs? Because again, the news just bloats everything to where you're like I mean, I don't want to believe them, but. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, a lot of this truth would, you know, so some great books. You're talking about you read this and read that. I read Men with Green Faces when I first started

trying to become a SEAL. And, you know, and I read Alone at, you know, as far as Alone at Dawn. I was like, holy shit, I didn't know all that, you know, stuff. And that's a great book everybody should read. But Lone

Survivor, you know, when I first heard about it, you know, as far as like, okay, you know, How much truth is to this story? Because I wasn't sure. That's

when I started asking all the guys that were there. And that's when I was just like, fuck, I didn't know. And they started, team guys. So

you got Alone at Dawn, Chapman's story about how he's left on the top of the mountain. Great frigging book you should read. You got Code Over Country by Matt

the mountain. Great frigging book you should read. You got Code Over Country by Matt Cole. And finally, we've got books that are exposing the dark side. And all

Cole. And finally, we've got books that are exposing the dark side. And all

those books, you know, whether it's Alpha, whether it's, you know, Code Over Country, all those books are exposing the truth. And that's what we should have put out first from our own community. And now that it's, you know, and it's taken those books to actually shed a light on and give doubt

that, you know, When a seal talks, is he telling you the truth? And that's

a shame because if you can't trust these guys that are at tip of the spear, if you can't trust what they're saying, then this country's fucked. And one of the biggest reasons I wanted to have you on and talk to you and expose this is because there's thousands and thousands of Navy seals out there that are good

people. Good dudes. Amazing men that have done amazing things for their country. And I'm

people. Good dudes. Amazing men that have done amazing things for their country. And I'm

going to give a small list of why I think the connection, and I'll go down a little further with that connection. Once you cover up Roberts Ridge successfully, it took them a long time for that to get exposed. They covered it up successfully.

The only reason it did is because there was a pred feed. Same thing that's going to happen with Marcus. There's a pred feed. There's a pred feed of him running away. And FOIA is a good thing. It just takes forever. It does take

running away. And FOIA is a good thing. It just takes forever. It does take some... And there is FOIA requests out there, just so you guys know. Good. What

some... And there is FOIA requests out there, just so you guys know. Good. What

is it? FOIA Freedom of Information Act. Is that how the first IRS feed from the Roberts Ridge came about? I always wondered. Someone told me. Go ahead. I'll let

you answer this question because I might have heard it from you. I'm not sure.

Someone told me they were, someone went and SOCOM was just reviewing it and came about and was like, this isn't right. Yeah. So what I heard was that, the Air Force didn't have anybody with a Congressional Medal of Honor. So they were looking at Chapman's award and they said, okay, does it, did he basically warrant basically maybe a Congressional Medal of Honor? So they started to look at the pred feed

that was there. And the story that they were, that Slab had told them that he was this guy and this is him going up there because there's just little black dots moving around on the screen. Well, the technology got better so they could basically, everybody had an embitter, so they could triangulate who was who on the ground.

So it wasn't Slab that was this guy. It was Chapman. So Chapman was a guy that basically comes out in front, storms up there, takes a machine gun bunker, basically saves the SEALs' lives and gets basically up there.

And then when the SEALs got shot up, they start running away. Slab says that he—the original story said that he checked Chapman and he was dead. And then later on when the pred feed come out, it's just like, you didn't even get close to this guy. So then he says, well, his laser wasn't moving anymore. And I

was just like, okay. That's different. In training, when you go down the line as far as, and you're just like the last guy, you make sure that guy who's there is just like, I'm the last man. Anybody that's coming behind me, you fucking light up. And so you check as far as going, and you want as many guns as you possibly can. I'm not sure why he got

left behind. And, you know, as far as, but he got left behind and he

left behind. And, you know, as far as, but he got left behind and he was still alive. So, and when that got figured out that, okay, something's not right about this story, they started coming up with these false claims saying, well, no, it was, it was the Afghans up there fighting each other. They got confused and they were fighting each other because there was another gunfight after the seal slipped down the

mountain, left Chapman up there. Then they call in, you know, close in air support, it said, light the whole damn thing up up there. Chapman survives that. And now

the QRF is coming in to save them, but they don't know where to land.

They land in the same place as the other helicopters basically got shot up and crashed. And Chapman exposes himself at that point to basically try to save that helicopter

crashed. And Chapman exposes himself at that point to basically try to save that helicopter because he knows that's his ride out. And that's when he finally dies. So the

Navy... NSW, as far as Team 6, they were squashing this story, squashing this story, squashing this story, because the truth was embarrassing. And they'd been lying about it for years. And Tim Szymanski was the main culprit in that whole thing. People don't realize

years. And Tim Szymanski was the main culprit in that whole thing. People don't realize something you said about the Air Force wanted a Medal of Honor. People don't understand how political Medal of Honor winners are. When one service gets a Medal of Honor...

other three are looking to go well where's where's ours if if they got one where's where's ours and there's there's a lot of truth of that and if it wasn't for the navy would have suppressed that story if it wasn't for someone as big as the air force saying yeah no no no no wait a minute so they just went thank god they did they just went up against someone bigger than

them yeah um and to go down that line roberts ridge That successful cover-up for the period it was successful leads to the cover-up of Red Wings, which was a successful cover-up. And I believe these type of successful cover-ups that no one's getting exposed, so there's no reason to think that you can't get away with it, then leads us to people like Chris Kyle, which then leads us to people like

Rob O'Neill. That's a small list of people I just named, and I just want

Rob O'Neill. That's a small list of people I just named, and I just want to say one more time, There's thousands of amazing seals. They don't speak for the community. Yeah. Let's, you know, so Chris Kyle is a good one to bring up

community. Yeah. Let's, you know, so Chris Kyle is a good one to bring up because, you know, well known within the community that he beat his wife and basically wasn't the standup team guy that everybody, you know, liked it, you know, that they made a movie about. He was out there trying to get a body count, trying to brand himself as the seal sniper. Most, you know, kills slash out there.

And he was working under Jocko Willings, who was basically pushing his guys out to do daylight, basically patrols and raids, which is something seals. We own the night. We

basically, we call everybody else day walkers. So for, and the Jocko Willings wasn't out there basically with those guys. He was basically pushing his guys out there. And I

don't know how many people officers do. Well, no, in our community, you know, you know, at those levels, it's like Eric Christensen was on that helicopter to go rescue his guys. And so you got people that are,

his guys. And so you got people that are, selling a brand, Jocko Willings is basically selling a brand and a persona that he didn't live up to himself. He sells, you know, things, you know, extreme leadership and everybody in, you know, the American public are, you know, hook, line and sinker,

just like hook, fish or die, you know, bait company, which is, you know, a great support for you guys, but they're, they're basically. Sij did there. Yeah.

That was good. Yeah. Man. Yeah. You do podcasts. This is my first and hopefully I don't want to say it'll be the last cause I enjoy talking with you guys and we can talk other, not negative stuff. I like to talk about positive stuff. And, but, but unfortunately we got characters that are

positive stuff. And, but, but unfortunately we got characters that are representing us that didn't live up to the standard of what a normal Navy SEAL would do. And, you know, the great things that, know, many great, you know, SEALs

would do. And, you know, the great things that, know, many great, you know, SEALs have done that. They're happy knowing that they've done it. They don't need the accolades.

They don't need to be on a podcast. And I, the last thing I ever wanted to do is expose myself out here like this. I wish there was other SEALs that did it, but unfortunately I haven't seen it and, and it saddens me.

And I, and it just, I can't live with myself knowing that it's just the same thing as going to budge to me. I got to step up and do the right thing. I'm telling you, you will be surprised and rewarded for this, which isn't why you did it, but you, and when I say rewarded for it in the aspect that you will, and we'll let you know, there will be Navy SEALs

that contact us. It happens every time. And I think it will have a domino effect that you want. I hope so. And here's another thing. If you're going to bash me on there and call me out for this or call me out for that, or if I made a slight mistake on something, as far as at least put your name on it and don't be a pansy ass motherfucker. They will.

And I was just like, have the balls to step up and say, no, you're wrong, Eric, because of this and blah, blah, blah. And I, and if I'm wrong, I'll admit it. I'll admit my mistakes. You know, as soon as they're brought to my attention, I fucked that up and I'm going to learn from it. And so,

you know, for those guys that hide behind a, computer screen. Well, that's, that's why you did what you did in your career. And they're posting comments behind a, behind a fake name on, on, on a podcast that you were on.

The, the, the, how it goes down. We talked about that. The why is always so important. Like that's the, like at the end of the day, you can explain

so important. Like that's the, like at the end of the day, you can explain it, but it all has to come back to, to a why. So why, Why do you think there was a cover-up on Red Wings? Just to ask you that specifically, the why. Yeah, because our mantra is we never leave a man behind. And unfortunately, Marcus, under his first

contact, left his buddies behind, even though they were calling for him. And that cover-up that he's been living this lifestyle for so long... And you could tell when he talks, especially when he first talked. He's starting to believe his lies now. He's starting to get comfortable telling it. But in the beginning, you could tell

now. He's starting to get comfortable telling it. But in the beginning, you could tell it's tearing him up. They know. And Marcus, you know, the best thing you can do for our SEAL community is to come out and, you know, explain why you did what you did and who pushed you to do it. And that's going to clean up the teams. And that's what needs to happen to the teams. The teams

need to be cleaned. I said that I... If anyone watched it rather than just bash me about it and the same thing you're doing here, I did the same thing for Rob O'Neill. And I believe this. I know they're worried about, you know, their empire they've built and their brand and this person that they now have

become. But I'm naive. It's not too late. It's not. You have to live with

become. But I'm naive. It's not too late. It's not. You have to live with yourself. You will feel better not having $30,000 speaking engagements

yourself. You will feel better not having $30,000 speaking engagements and regaining the respect of your community. And I do believe your community will welcome you back with open arms with the truth. Yeah, exactly. I do. And we will.

It'll be hard. Yeah. Just like Marcus was a new guy, you know, as far as he was put in a tough situation and his leadership didn't. guided him to do this. So I don't fault Marcus for doing what he did. You know, on

do this. So I don't fault Marcus for doing what he did. You know, on the day everything went down and days, you know, it's after he got out and after the book deal and he got millions for that book and all these speaking engagements. I'd like to know who's getting some of that money. That's where I was

engagements. I'd like to know who's getting some of that money. That's where I was going to say. The money that these guys, whether it's slab you know, another Congressional Medal of Honor who's doing these speaking engagements. Who's paying him to do these speaking engagements? And where's that money going to? Because if it's going to multiple different people,

engagements? And where's that money going to? Because if it's going to multiple different people, then, you know, as far as, and he's got to give it, you know, other people that are staying quiet, you know, as far as a cut, because then those people need to be called out too. And guys that, you know, SEALs that out there that know all this information, there's a plethora of, you know, of information that

they know, and they know what I'm saying is true. If they got information, they need to basically put it out there. And I'll make sure you guys got an email from me that you can post. If they got something they want to say to me to expose things, hey, I'll be the face. I don't want to be the face. I want some SEAL leadership officer to step up and do his job

the face. I want some SEAL leadership officer to step up and do his job and take this on and clean it. Because if he doesn't, there won't be a SEAL team that's worth anybody going to. I have a feeling, though. It's not...

not going to be as easy because the publishing companies, the billion dollar industries, the movie production companies, they have to now eat crow as well. And,

and I'm telling you, they were lied to Hollywood again, not trying to get into, uh, conspiracies, but Hollywood has been deeply involved in our government for a hundred years.

That's not going to go. That is not going to go well. But you're talking about, you're talking about men, uh, men among men that are seals and combat veterans. And if, and I just, again, I, maybe I'm naive about this. And

combat veterans. And if, and I just, again, I, maybe I'm naive about this. And

if you tell me that, that, that, you know, Navy, that Hollywood high ups scare them. I just, I don't, I don't think they do. Yeah, they shouldn't, they shouldn't,

them. I just, I don't, I don't think they do. Yeah, they shouldn't, they shouldn't, they shouldn't, and they don't scare me. So when I say that, I will never commit suicide. I was about to say that we did not kill ourselves. Yeah.

commit suicide. I was about to say that we did not kill ourselves. Yeah.

Absolutely. And so... But I'm

not afraid. And no team guy should be afraid of it. And honestly, by stepping up and putting yourself out there and telling the truth and exposing it, you're not a threat anymore. So by exposing yourself and telling what you know to be truth, as far as you're not a threat because you're not holding information that they need to squash you about. Yeah, it's already out. So it's out there. So your

protection... talking and as soon as they all start talking it's it's going to clean it up it's going to get rid of these branders these rotten apples that are destroying the teams well there's there's two more things i want to talk to you about one i will will be a wild card i'll let you talk about what because you're brave enough to come out here put put your put your name to

it your face to it and heck even your email address to it yeah and you have no idea how how much i respect that i do it's a i I will let you have the, the floor from here. Anything else you want to talk about any subject we haven't covered? Like, yeah, cause I don't want you to be like, you know, we, I wanted to come talk about this. You didn't ask

me. Yeah. If there's anything else you want to talk about, uh, now's the time.

me. Yeah. If there's anything else you want to talk about, uh, now's the time.

And then I'll have one more question for you. Okay. I guess the last thing I'd, because I know, um, Joe price's dad and, uh, and to let him know that his son was a stellar seal. And there's no seal that I know that believes that he killed himself. And that needs to be investigated and you should be

proud of your son because he stood up for what's right. And that's what probably got him killed. And I think that what you just spent the, you know, the last part of your segment that you had control over for, for you to, for you, for that to be what you're going to talk about, I think says a lot about, about who you are. So, uh, you know, listen to that before, before

you start throwing stones. Um, do like to end. It's been a pretty heavy episode. We always like to end it on a lighter note. Look at him. He's

episode. We always like to end it on a lighter note. Look at him. He's

already like, what? You have been around the world and then some. You've

worked with all sorts of characters. I'm going to put you on the spot. We

don't ever tell people. If you ever watch an episode, you know it's coming. We

won't give anyone a heads up to this. Give me a funny story.

Something story you'll probably have to go through the roll decks of which one you want to tell between between dive and deep dive and seal training since you like combat swimmer you know as far as type stuff so we're on a dive but we're up in uh uh newport news rhode island okay

and by a bridge there's a there's a museum of ships subs and stuff like that our job was basically to go in and hit these ships and put our limpet minds on these different things. We all had different ones that we're supposed to, when you get into a bunch of ships and you're trying to follow, follow a compass, it's just spinning. And you're just like, and you got, everybody's up there looking

for you. You're trying to, you know, basically, but you have a basically a Nalgene

for you. You're trying to, you know, basically, but you have a basically a Nalgene bottle with a chem light in it. Okay. And, um, so that they don't lose to divers. Okay. But there, so they roughly know where you're at and, uh, you

to divers. Okay. But there, so they roughly know where you're at and, uh, you know, for safety reasons. And, uh, When I got close in there, me and my swim partner, when we got close in there, somehow I lost that buoy. And I'm

just like, fuck, you know, as far as I'm embarrassed because it's, you know, it was my job to make sure I didn't lose that thing. Right. And so I start trying to find it and we start going up towards the surface and I look, oh, green chem light. Yeah. Grab it. Like, all right, I didn't lose it that long ago. I didn't know how to know. Just like, and I took it

and I start going and we complete our dive. Yeah. other guy who's dead now, Tom Marr. And I won't use the other guy because he's still alive and he's

Tom Marr. And I won't use the other guy because he's still alive and he's still doing things. And I don't know if he wants me to use it. Okay.

And, but they hated combat swim and diving. Every time they came back to debrief, it was a shit show. It's just like they got, they had to go to secondary X tracker. They got put on E&E. All their dives were max amount of time, just miserable cold, just like, and he just, they just hated it. Yeah.

Tom Marr was on bag, so he can't come off bag. So he's trying to talk. Oh, I lost my buoy. So another guy throws him another buoy so that

talk. Oh, I lost my buoy. So another guy throws him another buoy so that he could. And when he throws it, that's the buoy I seen. And so I

he could. And when he throws it, that's the buoy I seen. And so I take that buoy. And so they threw it to Tom. And they just know Tom's trying to come up with an excuse not to complete the dive. That's what they're thinking. Tom's trying to get out of this situation. And all of a sudden, the

thinking. Tom's trying to get out of this situation. And all of a sudden, the buoy takes off. And Tom's like, boo. Boo. Just like trying to talk to all these on bags. And they're just like, fuck you, Tom. We know you opened up and just sank it or something. They're thinking that they basically opened up the Nalgene and just let it sink to the bottom trying to get out of the

dive. So they give them this big pumpkin buoy. So now they have to drag

dive. So they give them this big pumpkin buoy. So now they have to drag around this... massive thing. Massive orange boo with a lot of buoyancy, a lot of

around this... massive thing. Massive orange boo with a lot of buoyancy, a lot of drag. A lot of drag. And they basically, they're already late. So they get put

drag. A lot of drag. And they basically, they're already late. So they get put on E&E. They get put on, you know, basically. And we're waiting for hours for

on E&E. They get put on, you know, basically. And we're waiting for hours for these guys to come back because the instructors are pissed that they fucked it up again. And so they run them through the ringer. They come back and Tom's just

again. And so they run them through the ringer. They come back and Tom's just like, he was underwater. And I'll just use his first name, Jake. Jake is just...

kicking out and pissed off because Tom has, you know, screwed him again. And Tom

says he was doing the Iron Cross underwater. He got the pumpkin buoy on this side, me and Tom pulled by Jake on this one. And he was just like, he was just miserable the whole time. And it was just like, to listen to that debrief was hilarious because that's when I was like, holy shit, that was the buoy that I grabbed. And so the instructor was like, holy shit, we screwed him.

We didn't realize we thought he was fucking with us.