Ex-Secret Service Agent: How To Finally Handle The Conversations You’re Terrified Of!

I've got a difficult conversation I want to have with someone and they might be a narcissist.

>> So, let's stop there because if you just blatantly label somebody as being a narcissist, you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and and why they are the way they are.

But when you need to go into a dark conversation to make things simple, there are four things that you can do because we all have those conversations.

We have a supervisor who we feel is overlooking us in a promotion, maybe our spouse we got in a fight with, a friend who's betrayed us, and they're cloaked in so much emotion or so much tension that you don't know how to handle that.

But there's also three things that you should stop doing, such as stop telling people you understand.

>> Telling them you understand.

>> Yep. Why?

>> This is what we're going to talk about.

>> For over 30 years, former Secret Service agent Desmond O'Neal has used sciencebacked interrogation techniques against some of the world's biggest liars.

>> He's trained elite teams from the FBI to the CIA. And now, in his first public

the CIA. And now, in his first public conversation, he's laying out the frameworks you need to communicate effectively, how to lead, >> and how to get anyone to open up. When

it comes to being able to communicate with somebody, the victory lies in the little things that you do. So, you need to have a plan. P is for purpose. So,

why are you there? What is the goal of the conversation? Because especially in

the conversation? Because especially in emotional conversations, it becomes really easy to get distracted. And if

you lose your cool, you lose control.

And then there's the A is to ask.

Because most of us think we know what our partner is thinking, right? But the

research shows we're only accurate about 40% of the time. And if that conversation gets emotional, that 40% can go down as low as 15. It's called

empathy accuracy. And so the power of asking questions is important, but when you fail to do that, you are going to have a really hard time having a deep, honest relationship with somebody. And

then there's the L and the N, which most people do wrong, and we'll go into that.

>> And then what about body language? Can

you tell if I'm being deceptive by how much I look at someone?

>> So there's a few indicators of somebody telling the truth, and we'll talk about them.

>> And what about leadership principles?

>> So I learned the true essence of leadership when I was on a SWAT team from situations like when you're hunting someone and they're hunting you as well.

So, let's get into the details.

>> I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show in the trajectory it's on. So, please do double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange way, you are you're part of our history and you're on this journey with us and I appreciate you for that. So yeah, thank you >> Desmond O'Neal. For those people that

have just clicked onto this conversation, what are they going to walk away from our discussion with? So I've been in law

enforcement for 30 years and I've served a lot of different roles in that. And

above everything else, the one thing that I've learned is when stress is high, when emotions are strong, when it matters, how do you authentically

connect and communicate with somebody else? There's something to be said about

else? There's something to be said about when a conversation is easy, right? When

it's fun, when everybody wants to be there, you can focus on your handshake.

You can focus on the eye contact, how great your posture is. What about the dark conversations? What about those

dark conversations? What about those conversations that kind of they live in the shadows of your mind because you don't want to face them. You don't want to have those, right? They're they're

cloaked in so much emotion or so much tension that you just you don't know how to handle that. We all have that, right?

We have a supervisor who we feel is overlooking us in a promotion. We have,

you know, a family member who we feel that we're just no longer getting along with. Maybe our spouse we got in a fight

with. Maybe our spouse we got in a fight with. Maybe a friend who's betrayed us.

with. Maybe a friend who's betrayed us.

So, how do you have that conversation?

Like, what does that look like? Because

it comes from, you know, for the 30 years that I've been doing this, most of the people that I talked to didn't want to talk to me.

And my job was to connect with them, to find a way to get them to open up, to find a way to have some type of understanding and get the information that I needed. So, this is not about

interview or interrogation. This is this is human connection. If your audience cares to understand how to have a dark

conversation where you can deepen that relationship or at least come to some type of understanding or at the very

least not walk away ruminating on everything you said trying to figure out what went wrong, what could you have done different? If you've had that and

done different? If you've had that and you're interested in knowing, then this is this is where we're going to talk about that. And to summarize in I guess

about that. And to summarize in I guess 30 seconds why you're the guy that is best placed to deliver this information, what is what are the reference points, the experiences, the the variety of

experience you've had that feeds into the answers and the actionable advice you want to give my audience?

>> My initial career started as a corrections officer, became a police officer and I was a SWAT officer as well. From there I went to the federal

well. From there I went to the federal government. So I went to the secret

government. So I went to the secret service. Uh with the secret service I

service. Uh with the secret service I also started a polygraph career. So now

I have people that are giving me their deepest, darkest secrets.

>> And just for context, polygraphing is a lie detection test.

>> Polygraph is a lie detection test. So it

gives you a psychological or a physiological response in terms of how somebody answers a particular question.

>> Where else did your career take you after that point?

>> I went into internal affairs and so that is now policing the people within our organization. So now I'm talking to men

organization. So now I'm talking to men and women who have had some of my interrogation training. They kind of

interrogation training. They kind of know the questioning going on. They know

the interaction. They've done themselves interviews and interrogations.

>> Oh, okay. So this is law enforcement officers who have committed a crime or some kind of mis issue or been reported for something and your job is to investigate them.

>> Yes. But think about that for a minute.

like you're now talking to somebody else who, you know, maybe a year ago you were out in the street doing work with and now you're asking them these questions or these for clarification on some type

of allegation.

You got to be you got to be mindful with that. Like that's a big deal.

that. Like that's a big deal.

>> And the the interview methods that were prevalent at that time you felt were outdated.

>> They were. So there is in the US there's a very historical evolution of interview and interrogation. You know, it started

and interrogation. You know, it started in the 1900s when policing came in. In

that circumstance, it was physical abuse. They called it the third degree

abuse. They called it the third degree where you would go in and, you know, people would grind down your teeth or they would cause pain for you to talk to them.

>> As we've evolved as a society, that started to go away in lie of psychological manipulation. So, it was

psychological manipulation. So, it was less about hands-on and more about trying to get people to talk to you from a psychological perspective. And right

about 2014 when I went into internal affairs, I was like, Stephen, I was like, I just there's got to be something different. Like, we've had to

something different. Like, we've had to evolved in some way in terms of what that is. And so, you know, you have my

that is. And so, you know, you have my thesis there, right? Right about that time, I was accepted into the Naval Postgraduate School to pursue a masters.

And because I was looking for a better way to interview, one of my thesis advisors said, "Hey, have you ever heard of the highvalue detainee interrogation group, which the acronym is HIG?" Had

never heard of it, but the HIG when it was created was was three-prong, meaning that it had a a research department, right? And it

had a practitioner department, so the people that would do the the the interrogations. And then it had a

interrogations. And then it had a trainer department. Now the trainer

trainer department. Now the trainer department, we would do interviews, interrogations, but we also understood the science behind that. The reason

that's important is because you could be a really good practitioner and not understand why something is or isn't working. And so being able to

isn't working. And so being able to cross the bridge between the the science and understanding that and being able to apply it in the room, that hybrid, that

connection, that sweet spot, that is what I did. So, you did research and you continue to do research on how to get people to give information, how to get

information from people, how to get them to offer up information. Is that the crux of it?

>> Yeah.

>> So, if I'm, you know, I've got a difficult conversation I want to have with someone, this person is antagonistic, they often gaslight me, they might be a narcissist, and I'm walking into that conversation or, you

know, I'm overthinking it. I'm thinking,

"God, I need to have this conversation."

Where's the first place to start? So the

first place that I would start is don't label the people how you just label them.

>> Okay.

>> And that's a problem. So you just labeled somebody a narcissist. Why does

that matter to you?

>> I think it allows me to blame them. I

guess >> allows you to blame but but tell me tell me in your perspective what's a narcissist?

>> That they are they are low empathy. They

are self-centered. They are a little bit aggressive maybe.

>> Okay. So let's stop there. Do you think personally that there are times in your life where you lack empathy?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So empathy is very situationally based. So meaning that it's also

based. So meaning that it's also subjective. Meaning if you feel this

subjective. Meaning if you feel this person is not giving you certain empathy, okay, maybe um a bit self-centered, a bit aggressive, you the reason I ask you these things is because

if you just blatantly label somebody as being like this person's a narcissist, you've just you've just made it easy for yourself. You've just put blame on them

yourself. You've just put blame on them and you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and and why they are the way they are. So

the first thing that I would do is I would take away the labels as how you define them as you're going into that.

What was the other thing you said in terms of what they were? They were

narcissists. They were something else.

>> Um they gaslight.

>> So second thing uh which is interesting because we actually within our training uh program we just did a big class on gaslighting because it's important to understand

what is gaslighting and what when is it not gaslighting. So for you cuz you said

not gaslighting. So for you cuz you said this person gaslights you. What is What are they gaslighting you about?

>> Um, when I bring something up, they make me feel like I'm to blame. When I when I bring up how I feel, maybe they make me feel like I'm to blame, like I did something wrong.

>> Okay. Does that always happen?

>> More often than not.

>> Okay. More often than not. So, it's

something that it sounds like that when you go in and you're talking to this different person, whatever the circumstances is, they are they're trying to discredit you or make you feel like maybe you don't know really what happened.

>> They're not listening. They're just

always throwing it back on me, saying that I did something to deserve it.

>> And what was the third thing you said?

>> A little bit like aggressive, antagonistic. So,

antagonistic. So, >> okay.

>> Their their emotions go up and it kind of makes me shut down.

>> Okay.

>> They kind of flood the zone. So, when

you need to go into a dark conversation, here are the four things that you can do to stay engaged and involved in in in what's about to happen, right? And in

how this is going to hopefully go through. And what we say is you need to

through. And what we say is you need to have a plan. And there's the acronym about that, P, right? L A N. So, the P is for purpose.

And the purpose is why are you there?

What's the reason? What's the mission?

You have to understand your mission because your mission is going to drive your tactics. Your mission is going to

your tactics. Your mission is going to determine if things get off track. If

this person becomes aggressive, this person starts to be insulting. If my

mission at that moment is to deepen my conversation with them and deepen my relationship in some way, and this starts to get ugly in the middle, your mission should keep you on track because you can get pulled from that very

quickly. There's something called

quickly. There's something called multiple goals theory. And multiple

goals theory is the understanding that at any given time we will pursue simultaneous goals. And typically those

simultaneous goals. And typically those goals would be something task oriented.

You know I want to I want to finish a tasking. I want to get something done.

tasking. I want to get something done.

There's going to be a component of identity in there meaning that how do I feel? What are my emotions going on

feel? What are my emotions going on during the course of this? And then

there's going to be relational. So it's

going to be my relationship with this person at the time. Now, a lot of times within multiple goals theory, those things can align. So, and I'll give you example like if you're playing a sport,

you're on a team. Uh the team goal, your goal within that team, the task is to win, to put on more points than the other person. That's the task. The

other person. That's the task. The

identity aspect of that is am I a good player? Do do I want the ball? Do I get

player? Do do I want the ball? Do I get the ball? Am I contributing? Am I the

the ball? Am I contributing? Am I the superstar? Is there some type of

superstar? Is there some type of identity and how this makes me feel about myself being being a sports star in some capacity? And the relationship part of that is

how do my teammates feel about me? Am I

inter am I a good teammate in terms of what that was? Those things can align.

You can see when that is misaligned when all of a sudden somebody what they would call a ball hog, somebody takes the shot all the time or they won't pass it around and you're like >> Ronaldo, >> what are you doing? Right? And it's one of these things where like you are more

concerned about your identity than you are about the team winning. That's a

problem. That's when you can see there's a misalignment of goals. Or something

that's even more simple would be let's say you're in a meeting with uh a boss or a colleague and it's a pretty important meeting. You're you're trying

important meeting. You're you're trying to close a deal and your boss says something that's wrong. Now

you have to make a decision. You could

either correct your boss in front of everybody or you could preserve his or her dignity and address them at a later time. You have to decide which one of

time. You have to decide which one of those is most important. You have to understand your purpose of being in that meeting because maybe I could let this go. It's not that big of a deal because

go. It's not that big of a deal because if I correct my boss, this may affect my relationship with them at a later time.

This could ruin my career in terms of being transferred or or not being on a project. So when you're looking at

project. So when you're looking at goals, you have to understand what the overall objective is. It becomes

Stephen, it becomes, especially in emotional conversations, it becomes really easy to to get distracted. Really

easy.

>> So I go into that conversation with my colleague who is problematic. My goal

with them, let's say, is to get them to stop. I'm actually thinking about

stop. I'm actually thinking about earlier in my career when I used to work in call centers on the phone and um there was one particular lady that sat next to me that was always a little bit

rude and always put me down a little bit bit patronizing. So I I in hindsight

bit patronizing. So I I in hindsight wish I could have you know taken her aside and had a conversation with her and said listen the way you're speaking to me is very disrespectful or you're putting me down or patronizing me.

Please can you stop doing that? My goal

would have been to to get her to stop.

>> It is to get her to do that, but the crux of that is to understand why she's doing it because that's going to allow me to fix this in some way if it if it's fixable. I I'll share the story with

fixable. I I'll share the story with you. In 1991,

you. In 1991, an 11-year-old girl named JC Duggard was kidnapped by a man named Philip Gerrio and his wife Nancy. And Philip and Nancy

kept JC Duggard for 18 years. He

fathered two children with her. One when

she was 14 and one when she was 17. And

in 2009, they found her and him at Berkeley. They

arrested him, arrested his wife. 2011,

he was, you know, tried, convicted.

Three years prior to that, there was a young girl named Michaela Garrett who had gone missing, never been found in a county over west of Elorado

in a county named Alama County. There

was a lot of suspicion that Philillip was the one who did this as well. And

one of my one of my colleagues was the prosecuting attorney for Elorado County, California. His name is Vern Pearson.

California. His name is Vern Pearson.

And Vern said, I'd like to close this or get some type of understanding. Can you

go and interview Philip? So I looked at all the information on Philip. He had

written a manifesto in terms of how to cure pedophilia. And I went to Vern. I

cure pedophilia. And I went to Vern. I

said, "All right, I'm let's go do this and he goes, "What do you need like a day, a couple of hours?" And I said, "I need four days." And my goal was to do a deep dive into the things that he had

done. He was a a serial rapist, uh, a

done. He was a a serial rapist, uh, a serial kidnapper, and to understand his life in the time frame by which Michaela Garrett went missing. And so this was the evolution of what I was trying to

do. So I show up, he walks in, says,

do. So I show up, he walks in, says, "Who are you?" I said, "Well, I'm special agent O'Neal. I'd like to talk to you about um your history. I read

your manifesto and I had some questions.

And he said, you know, uh, when they told me I had a visitor, he goes, I wasn't going to come in. He goes, but the angels on my

in. He goes, but the angels on my shoulder tell me that this would be a good good talk. So he said, let's do it.

We talked in detail every day for probably 8 to nine hours. They brought

him food. And the end of each day, I would say, Phillip, um, I will be here tomorrow. If the if the angels on your

tomorrow. If the if the angels on your shoulder tell you to show up, please do.

If not, then it was nice to meet you.

And every day he showed up. Why did you say that?

>> There there's a there's a depth of understanding in terms of the headsp space that he is in. And so when you can connect like genuinely connect with that you you truly try to understand another

person and there's power with that in the course of those 36 hours. Multiple times he was very aggressive. He was very

very aggressive. He was very condescending. He called me a liar.

condescending. He called me a liar.

Things he accused me of you. I don't

believe you are who you say you are. I

don't believe you're here for the things you're saying you're here for. Um I

don't even know if he worked for the federal government. And he's essentially

federal government. And he's essentially questioned my integrity. Now, my purpose is not to make him feel that I'm smarter

than him. Is not to

than him. Is not to belittle or berate him or or have a a question of, you know, integrity. Cuz I

could have said, "You kidnapped an 11-year-old girl and kept her captive for 18 years, fathered two children with her, the first one at the age of 14."

and your question of my integrity. I

didn't do that because that's not why I was there. And so despite the fact that

was there. And so despite the fact that he got upset, despite the fact that he called me and accused me of all these different things, I stayed on my purpose. I stayed on my mission. And

purpose. I stayed on my mission. And

when we were done, when we finished, I went back to the prosecuting attorney and said, "He's not your guy." And he said, "Are you sure?" And I said, "I bet my career on it."

>> How did you know? There's a lot of things in regards to when you're looking at people from the perspective of telling the truth in terms of the way that they they talk and engage with you.

Our conversation on Tuesday and our conversation on Wednesday and our conversation on Thursday and our conversation on Friday all stayed very consistent. If I'm asking him for

consistent. If I'm asking him for further clarification, he's providing for further clarification. If I'm

talking to him about, you know, something and there's some type of spontaneous correction where he's like, "Wait a minute. This happened uh before this, those are those are indicators of

of truth. And if there are things that

of truth. And if there are things that you know, he he talks about in terms of like things that are of complication.

Nobody's day goes perfect." And you know there were many times when he was telling me about the things he had done because you know he was a serial rapist

you know and a serial you know kidnapper and he would drive around and pick up women and hitchhiking and he would you know rape them and let them go. Often

times we would get into the details of like when those didn't go well right and when all of a sudden the the girl would would fight him off and run away and so there was all these different complications and different things that he would talk about. He handled the

complications consistently is what you're saying.

>> When complications are introduced to a story, right, people who lie don't do that, right? It's truth tellers will

that, right? It's truth tellers will often do that because it's just like this is just what happened. Like these

are the things that happened. This is my life in terms of where things were going to go. Overall, in terms of how that

to go. Overall, in terms of how that conversation went, there were those type of indicators that just made it trend more truthful than not. like there

wasn't this big gap or this big weird moment when we're talking about Michaela Garrett to where all of a sudden it's like missing pieces that I have to put in there. There are no cues to

in there. There are no cues to deception. There are things that all of

deception. There are things that all of a sudden seem different and require you to do more questions, more asking, but that didn't occur around the time that we were looking for with that.

>> Okay. So, we finally when we finished and then they went back and they looked at the evidence, they found a new fingerprint and were able to um charge and convict uh the person who did that.

The reason I bring all of that up is because for the purpose aspects of what we're talking about, not losing sight of what your mission is, being focused in terms of what that

is. The power of communication and

is. The power of communication and staying online as it relates to what you want to accomplish is really powerful because it keeps you on track and it

keeps you engaged and reminds you of why you're there. Not every relationship

you're there. Not every relationship deserves that. Like there's just some

deserves that. Like there's just some relationships you're like, "This just isn't worth it for me." If it matters to you, that mattered to me. It mattered to me not because for me, it mattered to me for that family. And there is a

difference between having a profession and being a professional. Having a

profession is what you do. Being a

professional is the culmination of everything that you've done at that moment, at that time for a specific purpose. And that's what I had to bring

purpose. And that's what I had to bring in with that because that was what was at stake with this.

>> Um, so you have >> this these four cards in front of you.

We've done the P which is staying focused on your purpose when you go into conversation to to fend off the emotion which might distort you and take you off. And I'm so guilty of that.

off. And I'm so guilty of that.

>> You know, >> everybody is >> so guilty of that with especially with like you know >> conversations with with my partner where there's emotion involved and there's some areas where you know blame might be

>> prevalent. So the L that you have there.

>> prevalent. So the L that you have there.

So the L is listen this becomes the thing that people are worst at because it's a lot

to do. Think about right now think about

to do. Think about right now think about my conversation with you at this moment.

I'm speaking so internally my internal vocabulary and the conversation that I'm having in my head is running about 800 to a,000 words a minute. I'm speaking to

you in about 120 to 150 words a minute.

There's a lot that's being edited.

There's a lot of things that I think that I'm saying or I want to say. I'm

trying to engage with you. There's also

something called theory of mind, which is me watching you and trying to understand is what I'm saying on point with what Stephen wants to hear or wants to hear

for his audience. Do I need to change anything? Does this landing on him? And

anything? Does this landing on him? And

then if your non-verbals change or your verbal changed, then I have to readjust maybe what I'm editing and my theory of mine will readjust too because I'm like, "Oh, I just lost him here. I have to I

have to readjust." Simultaneously,

you are listening to me and you're listening to the 120 to 150 words I'm giving you, but your brain can process this at like 4 to 600 words per minute.

So, you have too much cognitive bandwidth. you have the ability to

bandwidth. you have the ability to listen to me and then do multiple other things which is oftentimes why people will drift out or you'll start thinking of something else or you'll think of your your notepad because you got it you

got it figured out and this is when it becomes really easy to be convinced and not curious because you're like I kind of know where this is going and so you check out so you actually have to do something called cognitive inhibition

you have to kind of narrow that bandwidth to stay fully engaged with me that's why when you hear people say like active listening it's hard it's hard to do because you have to be attentive to

the other person. You have to listen.

You have to look. You have to pick up their verbal and their non-verbal behavior. And you then you have to do

behavior. And you then you have to do something with that. Steven CVY says most people don't listen with the intent to understand.

They listen with the intent to reply.

And if you are simply just waiting for your turn to talk, then you and I are not are not connecting.

Controlling conversation comes from listening, not talking. So if I'm trying to if I'm trying to get some information out of someone, I should have a bias towards just letting them speak at me.

>> You should, you know, you hear about this like always let the other person talk more. That's great. But if both

talk more. That's great. But if both people are doing that, then the conversation is not progressing. The

conversation is an extension of what you and I are speaking with. And when we've gone from listening in terms of what that looks like, the next thing you have to do which gets into this is the A

which is which is ask. Right? So the A being this. If you are paying attention

being this. If you are paying attention to me and you're picking up on things that I'm saying, the changes in my body language, and there's something you don't understand,

you need to ask. This is where you're going to deepen the conversation. This

is where you show somebody that you're active listening. you're curious and

active listening. you're curious and you're open and you're trying to understand them. If you look at empathy

understand them. If you look at empathy research, we typically think that we can understand our significant other or different people at a much higher level than we actually do. For a stranger,

it's called it's called empathy accuracy. For a stranger, your ability

accuracy. For a stranger, your ability to understand their headsp space is like 20%. For

20%. For a friend, somebody close to you, it's like 30. For your significant other,

like 30. For your significant other, it's no higher than 40%. Which means

that despite you thinking that you know what she's thinking, you got a four out of 10 chance of being right. And if that conversation gets emotional, that 40%

can go down as low as 15 because you start to pull in to be like, I I'm I'm guarding myself here. I'm guarding my ego. When your ego is on the line, your

ego. When your ego is on the line, your ears go offline because you stop hearing what she's having to say and you start protecting yourself in terms of what you're trying to do. So your ability to

be empathetic when things are hard becomes harder and you have to be very mindful of that. Let's say you come home from early morning workout and your

spouse says, "Hey Stephen, uh, how was it?" And you say, "That's pretty tough."

it?" And you say, "That's pretty tough."

There's a lot that you can do with that.

This is what she could do. She could say nothing. So now maybe you understand

nothing. So now maybe you understand that maybe she doesn't want to talk about this or she's not interested in it. That's one. The second thing she

it. That's one. The second thing she could say to you would be like, "Well, sweetheart, that's why you look the way you do." She has now made the

you do." She has now made the assumption, right, her her empathy accuracy that she knows what you meant by the word tough. And so if she says to you, "Well, that's how you look and that's not what you meant." Now you feel

that there's a separation between what you're hoping she would pick up on and what you actually said. The third thing she could say would be like, "What do you mean by tough?" Because the ambiguity of that is the word tough. Who

knows what that means? It could be a lot of different things. She's now showing you, "I'm into you. I'm tuning in." In

the power of something like that, when you talk about deepening relationships and increasing that connection, that's how it happens. The same thing with your non-verbal behavior, right? You look at

non-verbal behavior, 66% of of what we give is non-verbal. And so if I through the course of my conversation with you, if all of a sudden we're talking and you're just like >> folding my arms.

>> So folding your arms could be a sign of just you're folding your arms. It could be a sign of you not liking my question if you roll your eyes. So if I see that and it matters to me, then I need to say

something to the effect of it seems like versus I think because I think is the pronoun saying it's about me and it's just like I don't care what you think.

It seems like what you just did maybe was because you didn't like what I had to say because I saw you cross your arms and roll your eyes.

Do I have that right? So now you have a choice where you can either say you yes you got that right for these reasons or no I just followed him because I was comfortable and you know whatever the

case may be but it is a matter if I see you and there and it's and it's in harmony with the conversation that we were having that seems like it's a you know something that shows that it could be

potentially a problem. I need to ask about it. you and I having a

about it. you and I having a conversation right now and you folding your arms isn't going to be like a red flag that I'm like, "Oh, I just saw you folded your arms when I said that." But

if it's something that there's some emotionate around that and it's important and I'm trying to express something to you and I see you roll your eyes or cross your arms. Hey, hey, Stephen, I noticed when I brought up

this thing about our family, um, you kind of leaned back and crossed your arms and rolled your eyes. It seems like you didn't approve of that. Is is that Do I have that right? So, now it's on you to explain that or not. On this

point of body language, um, as someone that sits here and I guess interviews people for like, you know, four or five hours at a time sometimes, over the last 5 years, I have come to

learn certain body language um, patterns in my guests.

>> Okay.

>> One of the most obvious ones is when I ask the guest a question that is causing them some potential discomfort in some way. And when I say discomfort, I should

way. And when I say discomfort, I should probably define that as maybe it's a difficult question for whatever reason.

>> Sure.

>> What I tend to see is I tend to see them cross their arms. >> Okay.

>> That's like a really consistent pattern.

It's almost like a it's almost as if they're telling me that this is a little bit difficult and it's it holds to be true.

>> Do you ask them?

>> I noticed when you crossed your arms, you know, when I asked you that question, is it something with this question that bothered you or do you just let it go?

>> I let it go, but it but it's they've already told me.

>> Okay. So, I've already I don't need to ask them because I I know I now know that there's something there where there's emotion.

>> Sure.

>> It's kind of the way that I I see it.

>> It's what it is. More than likely, it's what it is. And I think there's power to that because your perception, right? So,

it's you bring this back like your pattern recognition of all the guests that you've done and the association or the the connection of that in terms of the question that you ask and they cross their arms. Like, that's where that comes from. That's where that all of a

comes from. That's where that all of a sudden that thing where you're just like, I feel it, but I don't really know it. It's just like you don't know that

it. It's just like you don't know that to be the case because it could be a number of different things but because of the pattern recognition you see it all the time that gives you the chance of saying this is there's some emotion here. So either engage it or tread

here. So either engage it or tread lightly depending on which way you want to go >> both. Yeah.

>> both. Yeah.

>> And that's what happens. So instead of saying like you know why why did you cross your arms? I will ask them potentially how how that memory makes them feel or how they they feel about that. And

that. And >> and that tends to be it's just it's so you know because people always talk you know they say does body language matter does it count for anything? Can you

interpret someone's body language to understand if they're telling you the truth? Is any of this stuff true in your

truth? Is any of this stuff true in your in your view?

>> No.

You should you should look at body language because it it it it is a language in terms of what somebody is is showing you, you look at body language and if you see something that is a

change, just like the cross in your arms, then you need to be curious about it.

>> So, it's really about a change in state.

>> It's a change of it's a change of what somebody's doing and the timing of that.

So you just said like when I ask something that is personal or emotional, they'll talk about it. They'll cross

their arms because maybe it's just now like the psychological thing where I want to guard myself a little bit. Maybe

I want to kind of close up a little bit.

Who knows? But if it's something where you're just like, I noticed it and you don't need to use it. Like you could ask them if you wanted to, but you're just like, oh, they already they already told me, so I don't need it. But for anybody

else, if you see that and you're talking and somebody crosses their arms, don't just assume that's what it is. Because

if you assume and you're wrong, you're going down the wrong track.

>> And so throughout this framework for having hard conversations, we've covered the P which is stick your purpose, the L the which is listen, A which is to ask.

>> Ask.

>> Is there anything else in the framework?

>> The N which is the next steps. So

to have a plan means to understand all of these different things and the way that you approach that. And the next steps is how do you want to resolve this? Like what's the end goal with

this? Like what's the end goal with this? Is there anything that I can do

this? Is there anything that I can do that we can you know further our relationship where both you and I can can be in alignment.

>> Do you ask them or do you propose?

>> I would always ask them if I'm engaged.

Right. So perhaps let's go back to the the conversation that you may have with you know this this individual. or you're

just like this person's a narcissist and so forth. If you're engaging them and

so forth. If you're engaging them and you're the one who wants to really have this conversation and you're hoping that you can find some type of resolution, you have to ask if there's resolution with that. So something to the effect

with that. So something to the effect of, do you think that you and I can find an amicical way forward where when I when you and I engage, you know, we can really enjoy each other's time and and this thing not go bad. Like do you see

that in our future at all? Yes or no?

And then it's either yes. Okay. What

does that look like for us? Like how do we have that? because I am I'm having this conversation with you because my relationship with you matters, but there are things that happen within that are that are frustrating and that cause me

not to really want to engage. I do want to find a way to do that because that is most important to me. How best do we do that? There is no magic bullet by which

that? There is no magic bullet by which makes everything every conversation go perfect. There's none. You are you are

perfect. There's none. You are you are part of that conversation. The other

person is part of that conversation. You

have your perspective. They have their perspective. You have what you think is

perspective. You have what you think is right or or or think is fair. Fairness

is subjective because what you think is fair is just means what you think is fair. And so

fair. And so the hardest part is to walk away and feeling like you should there should have done more you can do. The power

becomes knowing how to address that. And

if it doesn't go right then you walk away and be like you know what it just didn't go right and I'm okay with that.

>> What if they start insulting you in the conversation?

>> Okay. What's your purpose of being in the conversation?

I'm trying to get them to stop being so rude to me when we're on the same bank of telephones at the call center.

>> So, it is a matter of if she's being rude to you, it's it's addressing that at the moment, right? You know, I I noticed that we're having this conversation that you're being really aggressive, really rude, and really condescending.

>> So, you cool it out.

>> Yeah. Be very specific in terms of what it is. Like, you know, if she if she

it is. Like, you know, if she if she calls you and she uses, you know, she calls you a name or whatever the case may be, like, you know what, you're being rude. and she's just like, "What

being rude. and she's just like, "What did I do?" And you're like, "You're just being rude." That's unhelpful. Like,

being rude." That's unhelpful. Like,

give her the context by which you feel that she's being rude. Because maybe she does something outside of a name where you're like, "You're being rude." And

maybe to her that's not rudeness. Maybe

it's her directness, right? But if she's like, "You know what? You're Stephen,

you're just an asshole." Or whatever the case may be. And I would say, "Hey, it seems like as of right now, like, you know, you're very condescending. You've

called me a name to include an Can you explain to me specifically right now why that is?" and make her back it up. Make her explain to you what it is

up. Make her explain to you what it is that is there something about is there something about me you don't like? Is

there something about my my work ethic that you don't like or maybe the way that I'm doing this? You've been here longer than me. So is perhaps there's something else that I'm doing or not doing that you think is wrong because I

am not understanding your anger and your venom and your need to insult me and I would really try to understand what that is. So, you're having a very direct

is. So, you're having a very direct conversation with her, very specific to what she's saying. It does not mean that that's going to fix it. She could just be an And it's one of those

things where you have to be like, I am going to address this. I'm not going to return in kind. I don't have to turn into that person as well. I can walk away from that conversation and be like, you know what, I handled that the best I

could. Doesn't mean it's going to fix

could. Doesn't mean it's going to fix it. Are there any tactics that

it. Are there any tactics that interrogators are taught or that you teach interrogators for keeping your emotions in check? Because, you know, we we go into those conversations, someone

calls you an you your cortisol starts spiking, you get into your amydala, you get stressed, you get emotional, you end up calling them an back. But is there I don't know,

back. But is there I don't know, is there breath work? What what do interrogators get taught >> in the heat of the moment? At the at that time, you have no time to do breath work. This is real time stuff in terms

work. This is real time stuff in terms of what you're trying to do. If you go in and you understand your purpose and again I don't mean to go back to the plan but what happens is you become you can be pulled out very quickly and all

of a sudden if you are trying to get information from somebody and one of their strategies because they maybe don't want to give you information one of their strategies is to insult you and

now you're insulting them back one you're not going to get anything two you fell under their strategy so what you have to do is you have to address that I am something to the effect of I see that when I asked you matter and all of a

sudden like it seems like there's a change in our relationship to where now you're being really aggressive. Why is

that?

>> So, you're continually calling it out.

>> Yes. Because I am asking you to back up your emotions. If if because if it's if

your emotions. If if because if it's if it's BS, if you're just doing that because you're trying to hide the ball someplace else, I'm going to call you out on it. It's also showing me that I

am not afraid to confront this type of behavior and I'm seeing it and I am I am really trying to engage with you in a very amicable genuine way and if you are going to treat me a certain way I am

going to understand what that is. You're

also showing that you're not doing it in kind >> is part of this showing that you're strong. It's less about being strong and

strong. It's less about being strong and more about being competent and confident in what you're doing. Because if you allow

in anybody, not just an interrogation room, in in any in any conversation, if you lose your cool, you lose control.

You have to be mindful of that. I was

overseeing a an internal affairs interview uh and I was going to go in and talk to this person at the end. I

was thinking about doing a polygraph with them, but before that was going to happen, the the case agent, the person who had the investigation was talking to the subject. It was a road rage incident

the subject. It was a road rage incident where this uh agent uh had been accused of road rage and pulling his gun out on a civilian. So, this was the

a civilian. So, this was the conversation that they were that they were having. And I'm listening to this

were having. And I'm listening to this in an interview room, right? In in terms of like a two-way two-way mirror. And

the subject is very aggressive. He's

very angry and he's very angry to the point of like he's like, "I don't know why you don't believe me with this. I

keep telling you these things and you keep asking me the same questions. I

think this is a bunch of BS." The

investigator comes back and he's just like, "Because I think you're a liar and you're not telling me the truth in terms of what it is and you're causing us to be in this room a lot longer and this is

a problem." So now they are both yelling

a problem." So now they are both yelling at each other, like yelling at each other. And it was one of these things

other. And it was one of these things where I'm watching this unfold. And it

wasn't the subject's job to maintain his composure. It was the investigators

composure. It was the investigators because his goal is not to belittle this other agent. His goal was to find out

other agent. His goal was to find out did this or did this not happen. And he

lost sight of that. And he came out of the room to me and he's like, "What do you think?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm not

you think?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm not going to polygraph him. I mean, this guy's so emotional right now. Like

that's not going to happen." And he goes, "You know what? This guy's just an anyway." And I'm like, I don't

anyway." And I'm like, I don't think he's the in the room. The

other guy was the in the room because he allowed himself to get pulled out of what he should have been doing because now he wanted to have the game of who's the bigger who's the bigger

jerk in the room, you can do it. And

again, if you want to burn that bridge, burn it. But if if you want to maintain

burn it. But if if you want to maintain a relationship or you want to maintain your profession or you are trying to get to some resolution, you cannot lose your cool. I guess that's what it comes down

cool. I guess that's what it comes down to is most of the time we're not clear on the goal going into the conversation.

So we we have nothing to be anchored to.

So just it's we it's getting into the washing machine.

>> Absolutely what it is.

>> We just spin around and around and around and >> absolutely >> walk away with a nice relationship.

>> And the power really comes from if this person is insulting you and they're angry and they're doing these things and you're sitting there and you're asking good questions, you're keeping your composure. There is a lot of power with

composure. There is a lot of power with that. And I mean power in a in a way

that. And I mean power in a in a way that shows like I'm in I'm in control of myself. I am well aware of what's going

myself. I am well aware of what's going on as this relationship and this conversation is is happening. Uh I am not going to fall into this because this matters to me in terms of this other thing.

>> I've heard you say that you think people suffer from me me syndrome. What does

that mean?

So the me me syndrome is everything everything is about me right I mean it seems obvious with that but like you can even look at things from like a cultural perspective you can look at like here

you know in in the US in western civilizations like we are primarily like a dignity culture where we are it's all about us right it's all about that internal that internal feeling that that

we have and so everything is predicated on our job our success the things that we do the external world doesn't really matter in terms of our our success or

failure. So a lot of it is what is in

failure. So a lot of it is what is in your headsp space and how do you manage that because the problem that I see and

what I think comes with in communication is we do a lot of self-reflection.

We rarely do a lot of outward reflection on the other person. Some of the best negotiators there will spend more than half of their time thinking about somebody else. So, a very personal

somebody else. So, a very personal story. Um, when I was 21, my father

story. Um, when I was 21, my father passed away and he had been battling cancer for for three years. And so, when he passed away, uh, I have four siblings and my mom was there. So, when he passed

away, he passed away at home and all five of us were there.

Several years later, uh, I'm having this conversation on the day that my dad died about the day that my dad died. I'm

having this with my my sister and my three younger brothers and we're talking about where we were and so forth. And my

sister says, "Yeah, I I can't watch the Simpsons without thinking of of dad."

And I said, "What do you what do you mean?" She's like, "Well, the the the TV

mean?" She's like, "Well, the the the TV was there and the Simpsons were on." And

she's like, "I always just remember that." And I was like, "There's a

that." And I was like, "There's a there's a TV in the room?" She's like, "You don't remember a TV being in the room?" And I'm like, "I have absolutely

room?" And I'm like, "I have absolutely not. I have no idea that there's a TV in

not. I have no idea that there's a TV in the room. I didn't code it. that wasn't

the room. I didn't code it. that wasn't

the thing that was important. Her

perspective and the way that she saw that moment affected her differently than everybody else in that room. And so

to go back to the me me, when you fail to take in consideration that other people have other experiences based on

how they pick up the world, how they do things in the world, and you think that it's just about you, you're you are going to have a really hard time having a deep, honest, connective relationship

with somebody if it's just about you.

You can do it. And a lot of people do it. you know, they're looking for that

it. you know, they're looking for that that way to, you know, make people drawn to them and make people connect to them and and that's fine. But if you are trying to

I guess Stephen, if you just want to be like a genuine person and you want to have a relationship, don't make it about you. I've just finished writing my third

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rest. I was thinking this earlier. I was

thinking one of the things in the p this podcast that I've learned is if I um if I want to increase the probability that someone opens up and tells me something, one of the things I do is I share myself.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you know, I might be asking someone about their childhood and it's quite clear to me now that one of the ways, especially if they end up crossing their arms and get uncomfortable.

>> Yeah.

>> Is just to pause for a second and share my own childhood.

>> Yeah.

>> So, if I've identified that one of your values is, I don't know, you want to be a good family man. Might you mention that you're a family man yourself as a way to build a bridge? So if it's honest, so so that's a great question,

but this becomes a thing where you have to look at things if you were trying to influence or manipulate somebody. If

it's honest and it fits within that conversation at that moment because this is what I based on our conversation I think this person needs to hear, then sure, if it's real. If it's not, if I'm

lying to him because I'm trying to say, "Well, I'm a family man. You're a family man. Like we're we're good." Now you're

man. Like we're we're good." Now you're now you're manipulating the person and that's a whole different conversation.

So to go back to what you said, if if I understand this guy's values and I understand that there is a sense of let's say a sense of honesty, maybe

there's a part of this person that's also honest or there's also a sense of he wants to be I don't know, he wants his kids to see him as a as a as a man of integrity,

right? Let's just say that. So maybe

right? Let's just say that. So maybe

maybe that starts to become a conversation that we have as it relates to um you know I can only imagine you know the difficulty that this has with you as as you've told me you know you're a family man. I'm not going to say

you're a family man. I'm going to say as you told me you're a family man. And one

of the things that you said about being a family man was how important is your kids to to kind of like lead by your mo your model like your role model aspects

of that by honesty and openness and and and those type of things. So do you hear where I'm going? So I'm trending in the direction by which that I am trying to bring online still his father but a

different value under what it means to be a father because I don't want to talk about being present because that's probably going to go away. But if he is trying to teach his kids to own your

mistakes then maybe that's the direction I go. But how am I going to get that?

I go. But how am I going to get that?

I'm gonna get that because I'm going to start off my conversation with him in a very honest, genuine way that I'm going to try to understand who is this person across from me.

>> And what's the difference between manipulation and influence?

>> Influence is about nudging a person in a certain direction at a certain time that's beneficial for both you and them.

That's influence. Got it? Mhm.

>> Manipulation is you nudging a person in a specific direction because it's good for you. It's not good for them. And so you'll lie. You'll

for them. And so you'll lie. You'll

you'll do whatever you need to do to to close a deal to get them to do something to give them to give you something.

That's manipulation because it's often one of those things that it has negative consequences to it in terms of the person who did it. You know, maybe they never know, but you manipulated them, >> which is interrogations. No, because

this guy's going to go he's going to get life in jail if he admits that he killed this child. So, I'm that's not in his

this child. So, I'm that's not in his interests, but it's in mine. So, I'm

going to manipulate him to give me the secrets.

>> If that's what you want to do and that's the direction you think you need to do, then by all means, you can do it. And

here in the US, it is legal that you can lie to >> subjects. But,

>> subjects. But, >> so you're saying lying is the the the moment where it becomes manipulation.

>> Yes. that becomes the shortcut and that becomes a way not just within the interrogation room like I think what becomes important and I've seen this come up a lot people are all about like influence like you hear that come up quite a bit if you want to influence

somebody this is how you do it you're honest with them you're clear and you're transparent because influence is about how do I feel about you not about all the things that you're doing at that moment because if I don't if trusted is

isn't even on the table if I don't trust you to begin with or I think that to go back to what you had said there's this pattern recognition where I'm like I just think there's something wrong with this. You're not going to be able to

this. You're not going to be able to influence me if I am honest with you in everything that I do because that's how I carry myself. Not only does it lower your cognitive load because you're not

lying to somebody else, but it underscores who you stand for and who you are as a person. And with that, people are going to see that and say, you know what, Stephen's very transparent. He said this was a good

transparent. He said this was a good deal and I believe that for these reasons. It's a matter of you being

reasons. It's a matter of you being honest with that. I I always question now like because I see it a lot and it came up in the in the questions that that I was talking to your team about.

It's like why does everybody want to influence somebody? Like why why do they

influence somebody? Like why why do they what what is that? Do you know like why does it come up all the time?

>> Because what are people trying to accomplish?

>> They want to accomplish something. They

have a goal >> for who?

>> For themselves, >> right? So is that is that influence?

>> right? So is that is that influence?

But it gets the job done for some for some people.

>> Sure it does.

>> I'm thinking about that. Is it Cariegi?

What's that book? It's probably behind me somewhere called influence and it talks about the this five pillars of influence things like scarity.

>> So it's uh Robert Chaldini.

>> Oh yeah.

>> We teach that, right? It's one of those where you can understand why influence works, the different strategies of influence, like what they all stand for and when they fit within the within the

conversation. You can do it. I do it.

conversation. You can do it. I do it.

But I can I can tell you, Stephen, being a being a communication specialist, I don't spend my day walking around trying to influence people. I will be honest with people. I will be transparent. I

with people. I will be transparent. I

will answer their questions with the best information that I have. And if

people are inspired by that and and and that causes somebody to be influenced by the things that I said, that's that's what I want, right? And I brought this up earlier, but the the training academy

that that you know that I instruct with, it is all about openness. It's all about honesty. It's all about trying to help

honesty. It's all about trying to help people based on why they've come to us.

And it's not about manipulating people to to come in and be a member. It's

about why are you here and how can we help you? And this is the best way we

help you? And this is the best way we can do that. And that influences people and that inspires people to to listen to what you have to say. Why why is your podcast this successful? The first time

you and I met, you said something that I disagreed with.

>> What was that?

>> And it was you were talking about Flight Story and you were talking about the different things you you you know with Flight Story and the success of the podcast and you said it's not because I'm a good interviewer. It's because

they're really good at marketing. You're

a good interviewer because of the vulnerabilities that you do. Every time

I've been surprised on how vulnerable and open you are in terms of sharing with yourself like there's that story arc in terms of how that connection is because of that you influence me not

because you're trying to not because your team reached out but because of the way you carried yourself in your podcast and the questions that you ask and the vulnerability that you're showing. There

is a level of trust that comes with that. And so you in you weren't trying

that. And so you in you weren't trying to influence you were being you. And

there's a part of your self- congruence, who you are, your ideal self, which is just like, this is just what I do, and my life's not perfect, and I'll share the parts that are messy, and I'm trying

to use this as a platform to help millions of people. That's a big deal.

>> And is this how you build trust with people or is trust a different or adjacent point?

>> So trust is about being vulnerable.

Trust is about being open and sharing a little bit about yourself.

So truly, Stephen, the question becomes, is what I've shared with you in good hands? Because if it's not, that's a

hands? Because if it's not, that's a problem, >> right?

>> Mhm.

>> Let me ask you a question. Do you have a secret that maybe you've never told anybody or you've told just one or two people?

>> Yeah, >> you do. You got one in mind?

>> Yeah.

>> What is it?

>> I can't. There's millions of people listening.

>> Okay. But but if these millions of people weren't watching, would you tell me?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So, the reason that you're not telling me or in front of these millions of people is why why are you not why are you not telling us your secret?

>> Um because of consequence.

>> Okay.

>> Some someone's going to clip it.

Someone's going to put it on the internet. Someone's me up.

internet. Someone's me up.

>> There's a reason for it, right? There's

a reason that you're not trusting in terms of what it was. Maybe you trust me just because of the the relationship that we've built to this point. Um, but

there's probably other things that you wouldn't trust me with. When you talk about trust, I if you look at concentric rings, you know, in terms of the the trust around you, the the center ring

should be selfrust. It should be you.

You should be able to trust yourself more than you trust anybody else. If you

don't, you probably need to do a little bit of work, right?

>> What does that mean in reality of me trusting myself? Do you trust that you

trusting myself? Do you trust that you will do the things that you want to do or you ought to do or do do you keep yourself in that direction? Do you keep yourself accountable?

>> Right? That becomes this thing where can you make decisions? Are you a person like I don't make any decisions. I let

somebody else make decisions or I run everything by everybody else because I don't trust myself to make the right decision. Then you have to work on your

decision. Then you have to work on your decision-m because you have to find a way to build your trust up. Mhm.

>> Outside of that initial ring, it's it should be a ring of a handful of people that have unconditional trust, right? And these

are the people that no matter what, like you've given them that trust. You you

believe in them. And it should be a small circle. And this is where I think

small circle. And this is where I think people go wrong. They're like, "Ah, you know, I I I share everything with people." Then they then they're crushed

people." Then they then they're crushed when one of those people that they've given unconditional trust with break it.

That's a problem. I have probably, you know, my siblings are all really close to me, so I have them. There's

four of them. Um, outside of that, I have my, you know, I have my wife and a select few friends, you know, that I know that if I call, they're like,

"Let's we're good." Um, outside of that, you should, everybody else should be conditional trust. People should earn

conditional trust. People should earn your trust, right? They should be honored to have it. Like, don't give it away for free. And if you have somebody's trust, you should respect that. if they've given that to you be

that. if they've given that to you be but I think and I've seen it I people give away trust way too much because the person will be amazing in this one spot and all of a sudden they get the halo effect and they're like well they're

great here they must be great here it's this it's this arc of they're awesome everywhere and so I'm going to trust them with these other things then when

again they break it they violate it the way you feel is just the this this violation of you know somebody took what you gave them and just destroyed it.

It's hard to come back from that. It's

hard to once you re once you lose trust like if you lose somebody's trust it's really really hard to get back. Is there

anything you can do to get back, do you think?

>> What I know that you can do, it doesn't always work. You have to be accountable

always work. You have to be accountable for why you lost it. Whatever that is, very specific.

It's going to take time and a lot of consistency to consistency meaning that you show them consistently time and time again that you are a person that you

know can be trusted.

>> On um on leadership principles, something I've heard you talk about as well. Um what what do you think are the

well. Um what what do you think are the most important principles as it relates to leadership? Because we talked about

to leadership? Because we talked about trust there and other things around communication and all these things. Is

there is there anything we haven't covered as it relates to being a great leader in your perspective?

>> Somebody who's calm under chaos.

>> That would be my definition of a leader.

However, and I say that because leadership is a feeling, Stephen, how do you make these people feel as it relates to my qualities as a leader? Do I do the

things that register with you as leadership? As I can tell you when I was

leadership? As I can tell you when I was on a a SWAT team, which is the special weapons and tactics, this is where I learned the true essence of leadership

because I had some amazing commanders and and team leaders on that team were under high stress, under a stress like that. If you have people around you that

that. If you have people around you that are keeping their composure, that's leadership.

One of the elements there, I guess, as when you're in the SWAT as well, is dealing with huge amounts of uncertainty when pressure is on. Sure. When your

life's at risk. I was reading about a study, which I think you mentioned some time ago, where they look at three groups of people doing the same exam and would were sort of trying to ascertain

how people make decisions with different degrees of certainty and information.

>> Yeah. What the the study showed was there were a group of students that you know were taking a test in college and they were told that you know they had either passed or failed or they had no

idea whether they passed or failed. But

prior to that they were asked if they would you know take a vacation and the people who passed and the people who failed there was a higher percentage of them who chose to take a vacation after

getting news that they had either passed college or failed college. the group

that didn't know, there was a third group that was just like, I'm un I'm unsure. Weren't able to really make a decision and and so what the what >> So, just to be clear then on that third group, they didn't have their exam

results back. So, they didn't take the

results back. So, they didn't take the action to book.

>> They were told they were told that there was some malfunction in ability to score their test and they would get their results at a later time.

>> Okay. And so then they were asked to, you know, if they would also via a vacation. And a farther fewer

vacation. And a farther fewer percentage, I don't remember what it was, but a farther uh a much less percentage of them would take it than the people who both passed because I think there's like half the people who

passed or or were told they passed like took the bought the vacation package. It

was like a vacation trip to Hawaii.

Around the same percentage, I believe, who failed the exam bought the vacation trip. But the people who couldn't decide

trip. But the people who couldn't decide just they didn't have the cognitive bandwidth to to really make a decision.

So the ambiguity of not knowing really lessens our cognitive ability to to go in a certain direction. And so when we don't know where to go, we often don't go anywhere.

>> That is a hallmark of great leaders that they're able to decide even when there's very low certainty.

>> Sure. I would think that would come with, you know, the territory. I think

if you're if you're only a leader when it's calm, then you're not really a leader. You're somebody with a higher

leader. You're somebody with a higher salary and a title. Like leadership

really shows up in those type of circumstances when when things are uncertain. And so, you know, having the

uncertain. And so, you know, having the ability to manage things when not all the information is there and doing the best

you can with it because, you know, often times the the best decision to make is the right one and the worst one is to not make a decision at all. And so, if you have those type of leaders who just can't think through that problem, then

that's not a leader. I remember when I spoke in Sa Paulo many years ago, Barack Obama was on stage and he said that as president like when he went and got bin Laden in that compound in Pakistan that they didn't know if Bin Laden was there,

they'd never visually properly ided him.

So he had to make that decision to risk American lives with, as he said, 51% certainty. Yeah.

certainty. Yeah.

>> Or very low certainty. And he says that's the the thing about being >> the president of the United States. You

make huge calls with very little certainty. Yeah.

certainty. Yeah.

>> And I've always thought about that in in terms of my day-to-day life. And it al has made me conclude that the most successful people that I've met do have that ability to be low certainty and make big calls.

>> Yeah.

>> Um with the peace of mind that they've made that call with the best available information. And then the sort of

information. And then the sort of inverse of that is some people listening right now >> with even small decisions are trying to get to 100% certainty when obviously

100% certainty only exists in hindsight, >> you know. And that that's that's a really good that's a really good point.

I think that's a lot of people struggle with that when it comes to just just to own your decision like like own it like whatever you choose to do.

>> If you if you make it not under high emotion and you do the best you can with the information that you have at that time make a decision like you know as they say it's you know if you make the wrong decision then it's experience if

you make the right decision then it's confirmation.

>> I think about this a lot. I think about um how maybe everyone listening could have a conversation with themselves about their own relationship with uncertainty. Like how good are you

uncertainty. Like how good are you dealing with situations where you don't have much information? Yeah.

>> Um are you the type of person that's able to make a decision and not like sit sit in paralysis? And many people that come up to me in the street and say they want a new life or a new this or a new

that are um are choosing like the certain misery of their current life versus the uncertainty they see as they look out into the void of like quitting the job and going and playing violin in

Peru or something.

>> And um you know you you you bring up you bring up something that um so in one of our one of our recent classes that we taught this month, we talked about owning decision, right? And I shared the

story with the community and it it had a pretty profound effect. And so I was uh as a police officer, I was on patrol. It

was late at night. I'm driving down just this two-lane road kind of in the middle of nowhere. And I pull over to the side

of nowhere. And I pull over to the side and I'm just kind of like watching from a from an angle, just people driving up and down this road. This car flies by, goes through a stop sign, doesn't stop.

It's a very nice luxury sedan. So, I

turn on my lights, pull him over, and I said, "How you doing?" And he's like, "I'm all right." I could tell this guy's just like, he's flat drunk. And I shine my light into his passenger. Uh, and

he's just like, he's passed out. Like,

he has he has he's not even coherent that I'm probably standing there. So, I

get his driver's license and I'm like, "Look, you're pretty bad off." And he's like, "Are you going to call my dad?"

And I said, "Why would I do that?" He

goes, "Man," he goes, "This is car."

He's like, "He's going to be upset."

I said, "All right." So, I go back to my patrol car and I I I look at this kid in terms of he's had no priors. He's 16. He

has no prior driving record. So, I'm

making So, what's my decision now? I can

call for a DWI unit to come and and give this guy a fuel sobriety test and he's going to fail just because I could tell how drunk he was. Or I could call his dad. Now, I have to make a decision

dad. Now, I have to make a decision because I have that type of discretion.

So, I have to think, do I take this kid to do I have this kid go to jail and tow his dad's car, >> or do I call his dad and hope that's the right decision because his dad will find

a way to make sure this doesn't happen again. So, I had our dispatch give me

again. So, I had our dispatch give me his phone, his parents' phone number, and I called his dad. It's 11:00 at night, and his mom answers, and I'm like, you know, um, you know, Mrs.

Smith, this is, you know, Deputy O'Neal.

Um, I'm out here with your son, Jacob.

Oh my god, how is he? I'm like, he's fine. And I'm like, I think he's been

fine. And I'm like, I think he's been drinking too much and I want to know if you want to come get him. She's like,

can you talk to my husband? I said,

sure. He gets on the phone. Same thing.

And he's like, thank you. I will make sure this doesn't happen again. I will

be there in 5 minutes. I have no idea what happens at the end of this. But I

made that decision at that time. The

reason I'm sharing this is because when I told that story in our community, I asked everybody on the platform because it's very engaging. And I said, and Evie asked this question actually, and she said, "How many of you would do the same thing Desmond did?"

>> Probably should give context there that Evie is your wife.

>> Evie is my wife. I'm sorry.

>> Pumporus.

>> Yes. A lot of people put in the comments like, "I would do the same thing. Good

for him. The kids shouldn't go to jail."

And Evie was just like, "I would do the exact opposite thing. I would have taken him to jail. I would have towed the car because I don't know if the consequences of what his dad would do is is going to

outweigh the fact that he's going to go to jail." And she's like, "What if I let

to jail." And she's like, "What if I let him go and he does the same thing next week because he's not, you know, he doesn't care what his father thinks?"

And she's like, "That to me was a decision that I would have made." So I bring that up for this purpose. We both

made a completely different decision. I

made it for the reasons I did. She made

it for the reasons that she did metaphorically. Mine was true. This is

metaphorically. Mine was true. This is

just what she said she would have done.

The point was is that we both owned it.

And a lot of times I think what happens going back to what you just said is people are so afraid to make a decision for a number of different reasons and so they just choose not to. Now again

people could look at this you know your audience could look at this and be like he should have taken him to jail. I

understand all of that. I had the discretion and that's the decision I made and I would make that decision every time. But it's it's it's less

every time. But it's it's it's less about that story and more about when you decide on something with the information you have at the moment. Do you own it or do you as you said do you look back

later and have hindsight bias and be like ah I should have known you can't do that so many people try to live their life in reverse like that and looking back it's impossible it's impossible to

know so I do think and kind of to expand on what you said I do think when it talks about owning your decisions and and being being thoughtful as it relates to

why you're doing and what you're doing and taking command of yourself and being being a self leader decisions is making that is is what it is. To go back to the uncertainty aspects,

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Is there anything we haven't talked about today that really surprised you in the research that really caused a paradigm shift in what you thought communication was and now what you think

it is? Yeah, the research showed that

it is? Yeah, the research showed that your ability to build rapport with a person is what gives you the most power in terms of that connection. And different

people, you know, >> and how do you build rapport?

>> Most people think that this is one of those things where you're just you're just you're overly kind, you're very complimentary, uh you're talking about the weather, and now we've built rapport and then we're

good. It's not how you build rapport. re

good. It's not how you build rapport. re

building rapport is understanding values in terms of a person. Rapport is

understanding, you know, a person's presence and what they're needing from you. If I'm paying attention to you and

you. If I'm paying attention to you and I'm engaged with you and I'm making you feel seen and heard and understood and by proxy, by the reciprocity of doing

that, you do the same thing for me.

That's rapport. When it comes into building rapport with somebody, read the room. If I came in and I have a list of

room. If I came in and I have a list of questions and I see you that you're there's some emotional state that you're showing. If I want to connect with you,

showing. If I want to connect with you, I ask about that. I need to put my stuff aside before I can have the conversation I want to have. I probably have to have the conversation you want to have. And

at that moment, it may be understanding what is going on in your headsp space. I

can say, "Hey, Stephen, you know, I'm Desmond O'Neal. You know, I know you

Desmond O'Neal. You know, I know you were brought in this morning for for these reasons. It's obvious to me right

these reasons. It's obvious to me right now that you seem really upset. Can you

tell me what's going on right now?" And

you could say, you know, I don't know what's going on. I'm super scared. I've

never been in jail before. My mom's sick at home and I don't know if there's anybody to take her to her. Now, how

much information now do I have, by the way, that I can connect with you?

Because if you tell me, I am freaked out. I don't know what's going on. What

out. I don't know what's going on. What

do I now do? Do I go back to be like, "Well, that sucks." And go back to my list of questions. Or do I say, "How best can I help you with that?"

>> And this builds rapport.

>> Yes. Because what I'm doing is I'm showing empathy. I'm listening to you.

showing empathy. I'm listening to you.

I'm I'm giving you what you want. I'm

lessening your ambiguity. I'm orienting

you in terms of the direction that you're asking me to take you. You're

asking me for clarity in terms of what's going to happen. I'm going to answer that. I'm showing them that I am paying

that. I'm showing them that I am paying attention to them. I'm being authentic.

I'm going to follow up with the things that I do cuz I'm going to come back later and be like, "Hey, we checked on your mom. She was good. We pulled your

your mom. She was good. We pulled your aunt in. Your aunt came and took care of

aunt in. Your aunt came and took care of her. If anything else comes up, let me

her. If anything else comes up, let me know. I do have some questions that I

know. I do have some questions that I need to get to. This is important part of the investigation, but I I can only imagine that there's a lot on your mind and if things come up through our conversation, please please ask me."

>> That's rapport.

>> In those situations, I'm hearing many of the things that I read in that book, Influence by Robert Caldini, >> Chaldini, >> Chaldini, I'm hearing reciprocity. Yep.

>> You've done them a favor. So now they're more likely to answer your questions.

>> Reciprocity is giving somebody something with with the the expectation that somewhere in the future they will give you something else. It's not a transactional thing.

else. It's not a transactional thing.

It's not like the only reason I'm doing this is because I want something from you in exchange. That's transaction.

>> So So when you checked on that person's mom, that was reciprocity.

That was me following up with a commitment of saying that this is what I'm going to do for you. You can do with it what you want.

>> But you know that doing that is going to increase the probability that they answer your questions.

>> Knowing I do that regardless. I could

have he could have said, "You know what?

I I appreciate you. Thank you for checking on my mom. Um I I want a lawyer. I don't want to talk to you."

lawyer. I don't want to talk to you."

You know what I'm going to do? I'm going

to check on his mom. You know why?

Because that's what I said I was going to do. You know why? Because that's my

to do. You know why? Because that's my self- congruence. That's what I do as a

self- congruence. That's what I do as a person. When I give somebody my word,

person. When I give somebody my word, I'm going to follow up with it. So, in a situation like that, I will do those things because that's what he he's that's what I've told him I'm going to do.

>> Is there anything else on um on the point of having difficult conversations that we haven't covered in your mind?

Cuz I know there's loads of people that they want to get better at having those tricky conversations and also just dealing with a theme we see a lot is like people very keen to deal with difficult people. Is there anything

difficult people. Is there anything there that we haven't touched on? We've

got the plan framework, but just just want to check there's nothing we've missed.

>> No, I just think it was I just think it was a plan framework. And it's not about making things complicated. It's actually

about, you know, there's there's things that you should take out, you know, when it comes to communication as opposed to always adding things in. You know, it really becomes like extinction before

acquisition. So, I can I can tell you

acquisition. So, I can I can tell you when it comes to better communication, there are three things that you should stop doing right now. One of them is to stop trying to be right.

One of them is to stop telling people you understand. And the third one is

you understand. And the third one is stop giving people your unsolicited opinion. Now to break those down, stop

opinion. Now to break those down, stop stop trying to be right. And we talked about that one a little bit. The the

second one is stop telling people that you understand. This is what I mean by

you understand. This is what I mean by that. You can understand you can

that. You can understand you can understand a person's words. You will

never understand their headsp space in terms of the the specificity of that.

And so what you will see is I if if you're sharing a story like if you shared a personal story with me let's say you let's say your father had passed away and I'm like you know what Stephen

I completely understand um my dad passed away too when I was young so now we're connected I have just I've just taken away

that moment for you because I made it about me because I I thought that I understood something that you had experienced in fact your experience of a death or your experience of your father at the moment is going to be completely

different than mine. But for me to tell you that I understand is is shortsighted. My girlfriend tells me

shortsighted. My girlfriend tells me sometimes that she wants me to say that I understand.

And I think what she's saying is that maybe she wants to feel understood and so she might be explaining how she feels and then if I say do you know I

yeah know I do understand but do you?

Sometimes I get to the point where I I do understand what she's saying.

>> You understand what she's saying, but do you understand how she truly feels?

>> No.

>> Okay. But that becomes >> because I don't feel that.

>> You don't feel it.

>> But she just wants me to acknowledge.

>> She wants you to acknowledge it. So the

difference is in terms of it was being genuine where you're like, look, I I really understand how you feel. You

probably don't.

>> How do I make her feel understood in that regard then without telling her I understand?

>> To feel understood is to is to listen to her to be like look, you know, I it sounds it sounds tough. sounds, you

know, like this is something really on your mind. Like, and it kind of goes

your mind. Like, and it kind of goes into our other thing. We're like, "Stop giving people your opinion." You know, if she's if she's expressing things to you and she's sharing how she wants to feel, she's probably not looking for you to tell her what to do unless she's

asked you for that. The first thing that we always do, and it happens all the time, is like, "Let me tell you what I think.

>> Try to fix it without having all of the the emotions and the complexities of of why it's not being done." And so to go back to with your girlfriend, it really is just a matter of trying to understand, seeing where she's going

with it, asking her, you know, if there ways that that, you know, we can we can work to make it better or help you with this. But as Stephen, she's just like, I

this. But as Stephen, she's just like, I I want you to understand. I would just tell her, I understand, just because that's what she's looking for. You're

not going to have it in there. But if

you generally went to somebody and you're like, oh, I understand. That's

what I'm asking you not to do. That's

what you shouldn't do. You shouldn't

generally think that you truly understand another person because then you're going like you're convinced that you know and you're no longer curious in terms of how they actually feel.

>> And on that last point about giving giving the opinion, a lot of time people, you know, when they're sharing something, they just want you to create the space. Simon Synynic said to me, he

the space. Simon Synynic said to me, he goes, "Most of the time people just want you to sit in the mud with them." And

like I I naturally show up with like my toolbox to try and fix the situation.

But a lot of the time, especially with my my girlfriend, maybe she just wants me to listen. Most people do, right? It

becomes like this identity headsp space where people just are looking for the sounding board for you, for your girlfriend. Like you're the you're the

girlfriend. Like you're the you're the guy, you're the person, and that's what she comes to you for. That's your job in a lot of ways. And I don't mean that in a negative thing, but it's just one of those things where if that's what she needs from you, then that's what you give her. And a lot of people just want

give her. And a lot of people just want as as as Simon Senk said where you said it like just sit in the mud with them and that's what they're asking you. If

she turns to you and say Stephen what would you do here then she's asking you but if not then don't give it >> something I need to work on.

>> Yeah we all do.

>> Yeah cuz you cuz you I don't know something about maybe the male brain but it's probably not just men.

>> Can I talk real quick just about our training community before we go? Is that

okay with you?

>> Yeah. because it is one of those where like now uh what I spend all my time with is is I'm an instructor for Beyond Bulletproof which is a training platform

that that Evie and I that E and I host and it really comes down to three prongs of how do people helping people think, helping people act, and helping people leave with purpose. And I know we talked

about those things, but the reason I bring that up is because there are so many people, Stephen, that just as you had talked about, they're they're looking for they're looking for some help. They're looking for some clarity.

help. They're looking for some clarity.

They're looking for somebody to influence them in some way because they don't have good emotional regulation and they're trying to get better in their relationships. We've been fortunate to

relationships. We've been fortunate to to have that and that's kind of where, you know, I don't I don't do a lot of social media, you know, I don't do uh a lot of other other things because I spend my time here. As you know, we have

a closing tradition on the podcast, but the last guest leaves a question for the next. And the question that's been left

next. And the question that's been left for you is, what decision do you most regret? And

would things have turned out better if you had made it differently?

Ouch, that's a spicy one. So

I as much as this wants to be a spicy one, I can I can categorically tell you that there's not a decision that I've made that I wish I would have made different.

And I say that because it kind of goes back to I own my decisions in terms of the things that I have done. I even when the story that I shared about, you know, when I was a police officer with the kid who was drinking, like I own those

decisions. And in truth, like all of

decisions. And in truth, like all of those decisions have manifested itself for me to sit down here with you today and have this conversation. And so I can't tell you that there's something that I look back that I regret because I

think that there's things we learn from.

But I think for the most part, I don't use hindsight bias. I don't look back to say I wish there was something else. I

use those things to uh to grow and to learn and be better. And you know, had I made a difference decision, maybe you and I wouldn't be sitting here. So none.

>> But you still I mean, if someone asked me that, I'd have loads of answers. Like

what?

>> Just like the ways that I handled situations in my life as an employee.

You know, I shouldn't shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have done that. I

said that. I shouldn't have done that. I

you know, when my girlfriend said that, do you know, I should have just listened and I wish I had because I think our relationship would be better or you know, some grudge I held or whatever, you know, like the the

messiness of being a emotional human. So

let me let me ask this and I think you know I I do question at times that that type of I wish and I regret I think that also changes

who you are as a person if you're like I would have gone back and done we we can all do that in some and I don't mean that's petty but in all some petty way when I was writing my my thesis I would always come to my thesis adviser and

she'd be like nope this isn't good this isn't good this isn't good and so when I was done there was like I had like 30 p she's like just put this in the parking lot. Like maybe we'll look at this,

lot. Like maybe we'll look at this, maybe we won't. So when I was done with my thesis, I had 30 pages that were in the parking lot. And I went to her and I I feel like this is a lot of mistakes.

And she goes, you had to have this to have this. And so when when I hear that

have this. And so when when I hear that when it's just like, oh, I wish I would have done these things different. You

would be a different person, right? It's

all those perspectives. It's all those little things that you code and become a different person. You would be a

different person. You would be a different person if you had done those things differently. I'm not saying

things differently. I'm not saying better or worse, but I'm saying I don't I don't think that's a reason to look back and regret things.

>> Yeah, I probably would still have those mistakes in my future if I hadn't made them in the past as well. So maybe maybe the very fact that I can identify them means that my self-awareness grew based on them. I like I'm never going to treat

on them. I like I'm never going to treat someone like that again or I'm never going to say that thing again because I learned the lesson. So I'm a better person >> today because of that.

>> Yeah.

>> Desmond, thank you.

>> Thank you. Thank you so much for doing what you do and uh this is your you said this is your first podcast which is exciting.

>> It's my first podcast.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Thank you.

>> If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards. Because on this

conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and have those deep, intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to

time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode,

each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest and we've turned them into these conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards

cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more

interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand

conversation cards. This is the brand new edition. And for the first time

new edition. And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting the gold

from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the

cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone.

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