Fix Bloating & Gut Issues Fast: Gastroenterologist's 4-Step Plan | Dr. Will Bulsiewicz

And it turns out that more than 50% of our microbes have a circadian rhythm.

What that means is that they are rising and falling over the course of a 24-hour cycle.

>> If I track my overnight heart rate, HRV, eating close to bedtime really decimates my HRV.

>> After a meal, we discovered that inflammation was most strongly tied [music] to our blood triglyceride levels. And our blood triglyceride

levels. And our blood triglyceride levels peak about 6 hours after the meal and then start to come down. If you eat late at night, you just peaked inflammation at 3:00 in the morning.

>> We talk about four nutritional pillars in terms of supporting a healthy microbiome.

>> What matters are the key essential nutrients that your body needs in order to have a healthy gut, repair and restore the gut barrier, and then calm the immune system. So, these four things are >> I want to take a quick break from this

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We're [laughter] live. Okay, Dr. Will, can your poop really show early signs of disease?

>> Yes.

>> Yes. Can you actually rebuild your gut microbiome or is it permanent once it's damaged?

>> Rebuild for sure.

>> Rebuild for sure. Do probiotic

supplements actually work or are they a waste of money?

>> Sometimes.

>> Sometimes. Are fermented foods like kimchi and sauerkraut better than probiotics?

[snorts] >> Arguably yes.

>> Interesting. We'll dive into that. Um,

does fiber really feed your good bacteria? And can you eat too much of

bacteria? And can you eat too much of it?

>> Yes and yes.

>> Yes and yes. Are ultrarocessed foods destroying the gut even if the calories are the same?

>> Yes.

>> And can your gut health affect your mood, cravings, and even sleep?

>> 100%.

>> 100%.

>> It's just like confirmed all the things that uh it's confirmed basically everything we worry about. Okay, let's

start here then. Let's go a bit deeper.

If someone's gut is a mess, so they've got bloating, they've got fatigue, they've maybe got a bit of brain fog, what's the first simple thing that they can start doing to improve their symptoms?

>> Okay, that's well, so I think it depends a little on the individual, Angela. So,

you know, as a gastronurologist, like there's not a generic answer to what I would do if a person walks in the door for the first time.

But that being said, like there are these general rules, these levers that we can pull that we know are good and beneficial to the gut. And for the

majority of people, these are going to provide benefit. Um, let me say this,

provide benefit. Um, let me say this, for the person who is suffering with these digestive symptoms that you just described, my knee-jerk instinct is to talk about

fiber, but I'm actually not going to.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. Because in some cases, and we can dig into this, fiber actually makes their symptoms worse. And you asked me to make their symptoms better.

>> So, how about we build a morning routine where we focus on, and I understand that in the UK right now and in many parts of the states, it's not easy to do this,

but we focus on building a morning routine about how do we get our cortisol to peak in the morning?

And I'd like to explain that because cortisol is the hormone that sets our circadian rhythm as we start our day.

And in that setting, we hear cortisol and we hear stress hormone. That must be bad.

But actually in the morning, it's really good. And it turns on all of our

good. And it turns on all of our systems. This is how we wake up. This is

how we get up and go. And if we get morning light exposure, if we get outside within the first hour of the day, then through our retina,

through a a part of our brain called the SCN, we will activate a increase of up to 50% of morning cortisol.

And that's a time stamp to tell your body the day starts now. And you asked me to I'm I'm bringing this back to the bloating. You asked me how do I improve

bloating. You asked me how do I improve this person's bloating? Yes, we can do it through nutritional moves, but there's nuance to that. But what I'm saying is one thing that we're most most

of us are missing is the opportunity to time stamp our morning with the light exposure. And when you increase that

exposure. And when you increase that morning cortisol, it actually helps to promote bowel regularity. And when you have bowel regularity and you have a good morning bowel movement, I would make the argument your bloating will

improve because the vast majority of cases of bloating for people have to do with insufficient movement of their bowels. So by getting them into a

bowels. So by getting them into a rhythm, getting their bowels moving, having a good healthy release in the morning, their symptoms, they get better and they feel that difference. And by

the way, they'll also get a better night's sleep that night and they'll have more energy that day and they'll have better focus that day and they'll be able to achieve more tasks that day.

So like in the context of high performance health, this free tool, morning light exposure, this is a powerful thing and it the sun is preferred

but when you live in the UK, a light box is perfectly fine too this time of year.

That is so interesting because I always teach this right when I'm when I'm speaking uh with corporates and things like that and leadership teams that we must get morning light and regulating that cortisol rhythm. But I hadn't

actually thought about how that connects to the morning bowel movement. So what

you're saying is if we can go with it and get that early morning cortisol awakening response and a robust one that is more likely to lead to a regular morning bowel movement

>> 100%. And the and the thing is that

>> 100%. And the and the thing is that they've actually studied the microbes.

So we have to understand because we have underestimated the impact of our circadian rhythm. But what we recently

circadian rhythm. But what we recently just went through in the last couple of weeks is the time change, right? The

time shifts by 1 hour. 1 hour. That's

not very much. Most of us, we vary our sleep times by more than an hour. We

vary our meal times by more than an hour. But when you move the times the

hour. But when you move the times the time by one hour, most of us feel it. We

feel the difference. Right? So this

speaks to the power of the circadian rhythm. And it turns out that more than

rhythm. And it turns out that more than 50% of our microbes, more than 50%.

Have a circadian rhythm. What that means is that they are rising and falling over the course of a 24-hour cycle.

And we want the right microbes in the right place at the right time to support our day. They're there for that. That's

our day. They're there for that. That's

what they want to do.

But the only way for them to be able to do that, to show up at the right time, is you have to let them know what time it is. And the way that we do this is

it is. And the way that we do this is through light exposure. And that light exposure through the through our eyes, hits the retina, passes through the optic nerve, runs directly into the SCN

before it even gets to the rest of your brain. The SCN in the brain releases the

brain. The SCN in the brain releases the cortisol. You increase that spike by

cortisol. You increase that spike by 50%. The other thing that I would add by

50%. The other thing that I would add by the way too to that story, light exposure and serotonin.

What is seasonal effective disorder?

Seasonal effective disorder is the disruption of what we're talking about right now. You're not getting outside.

right now. You're not getting outside.

You're not getting that light exposure that your body needs during these off months. And as a result of that, it

months. And as a result of that, it affects serotonin levels.

Now, serotonin in the brain affects our mood and our focus.

But at the same time, serotonin in our gut, 95% of the serotonin in our body is in our gut and that affects our bowel rhythm

and light exposure helps to activate serotonin release as well. So there's

the cortisol factor, the serotonin factor, and then there's the microbes that are rising and falling. And what

we've what we found is the number one predictor of the circadian nature of these microbes is the cortisol release.

So, we want that properly timed cortisol bump in the morning.

>> Super interesting, right? It gives me a couple of questions here. One's really

quick on the serotonin. So, my

understanding is the serotonin that's produced in the gut stays in the gut, but it helps with bowel motility. But

then through the vagus nerve that communicates to the brain, the gut's happy. So now the brain's happy,

happy. So now the brain's happy, produces its own localized serotonin.

And maybe there's a feedback that goes the other way. Is that right? So if

you're getting light on the eye and you're producing serotonin, is that also simultaneously then saying, "Hey, we have a happy brain, so we should also have a happy gut or not working like that."

that." >> Right? So the serotonin that that is

>> Right? So the serotonin that that is produced in the gut isn't when it is serotonin that's in the gut, it's active as as a gut motility agent. It's not

crossing the bloodb brain barrier to influence our mood. But there are precursors. there are precursors that

precursors. there are precursors that like five hydroxyryptamine that are able to cross the bloodb brain barrier and actually then turn into serotonin in the

brain. So that's one factor through the

brain. So that's one factor through the vagus nerve as you mentioned Angela that is absolutely correct that is the gut brain uh connection where the gut is

speaking to the brain 80% of the fibers so four out of five fibers within the the vagus nerve are sending information

from the gut up to the brain and we have millions of nerves in our gut 5 million nerves is the estimate and we have trillions of inflammatory cells

And we have 38 trillion microbes and all that information gets consolidated.

That's a lot of information. That's why

80% of those fibers taking that information up and that does influence our mood.

>> Mhm.

>> But also the light exposure that we get through our eye also affects brain serotonin.

So through that direct effect. So I

light light exposure through the eye is not just the release of cortisol. It

also affects our brain serotonin levels.

>> Interesting. So when we're looking then at that robust cortisol response that we want in the morning and we get the light exposure, what about somebody who wakes up in the morning and their part of

their morning routine is to go through a more gentle process. So they wake up, they meditate for anywhere, some people will meditate 10 minutes, other people will meditate for an hour, right?

They're going to keep potentially the lights dimmed. What would you say in

lights dimmed. What would you say in response to that? How important is this first hour in terms of the structuring and the light exposure to get this right?

>> Right. So, um you don't you you don't fail if you're 61 minutes after you wake up. Right. This is like um the the

up. Right. This is like um the the biggest opportunity is during that first hour. You will get the most from your

hour. You will get the most from your light exposure during that time. That

doesn't mean that you should stop yourself from going outside and getting light exposure later in the morning.

There's still plenty of opportunity that exists there. And most of us don't spend

exists there. And most of us don't spend enough time outdoors in the first place.

So we should be looking for opportunities to get outdoors whenever possible. That being said, this uh what

possible. That being said, this uh what you have proposed sounds like a you know a parasympathetic protocol,

>> right? Where you are low light and you

>> right? Where you are low light and you are soothing music and you are relaxing and you are perhaps meditating and and that's perfectly fine for the

morning. But, um, if I were to place

morning. But, um, if I were to place that within our 24-hour cycle, that sounds perfect for the evening. Like,

ideal for the evening before we go to bed, that's the perfect way to wind down. Most of us are staring at our

down. Most of us are staring at our devices, looking at a television, getting exposed to bright blue lights right before we try to go to bed, and then we're confused why our sleep is

disrupted, right? And the reason why is

disrupted, right? And the reason why is because we've actually disrupted melatonin in the evening. So, we're far better off to take what you just proposed and insert that into the

evening, dimming the lights, getting relaxed, activating our parasympathetic nervous system, and then you're going to find that your sleep is excellent. So,

um, so I I it's not that I would come down and say that's wrong to do. We need

more parasympathetic opportunities in our day. We live in a sympathetic dominated world.

The only way to create parasympathetic opportunities is to be intentional.

as our day unfolds, it's hard to predict where we will be and what we'll be doing. So, creating morning routines

doing. So, creating morning routines makes a lot of sense to me. But that

being said, I would advocate that within this window after you fulfill uh this sort of engagement of your parasympathetic nervous system that you prepare to activate. And you're

activating your system with light exposure. You're activating your system

exposure. You're activating your system with hydration. You're activating your

with hydration. You're activating your system with a little light exercise and all of these things. I promise the listeners of your show, if you're not doing these things and you give them a

try, you will feel the difference. You

will feel the difference in your day, with your energy, with your focus, with your ability to get tasks done. And you

will feel the difference that night because you will get tired and you will want to go to bed.

>> That's so true. I can I can vouch for that. I think my morning routine of

that. I think my morning routine of exercise and light exposure is the thing I credit with a a more positive mood and b productivity. Um it's super

b productivity. Um it's super interesting though what you're saying about these microbes. So what you're saying is that they get communicated to by this clock. They know what time of day it is, but it sounds like the levels

of the activity of different groups or certain types of microbes is also changing across that 24-hour clock.

>> Correct. 100%. In fact, it starts to make a lot of sense. So, you know, the thing about it, Andrew, as a medical doctor, is that the further along that I've gone in my career, the more that I

start to believe that this is far too amazing, the body, far too amazing to just be explained by chance because everything starts to make sense. And

what we discover is that these microbes, they're not even a part of your body, right? They are foreign to you. They've

right? They are foreign to you. They've

come along as passengers in in your life and yet they're there to support you.

And what we find is during the day they're more involved in like for example um the creation of proteins and things that you need to be able to get through your day and thrive because

you're physically active, right? So in

that moment that's what you need. What

do you need at night? You need to recover, right? You need to recover your

recover, right? You need to recover your body and heal. and they're actually flipping into basically recovery mode at night. And so it's just fascinating to

night. And so it's just fascinating to consider that there's this rise and fall that's occurring. And if we if we

that's occurring. And if we if we embrace that and we teach them what time of day it is, which the most powerful lever that you can pull is morning sunlight and then shutting down the

light at night. If you allow them those two bookends to know and then you got the meals in between, they now understand what your cal what your what your cadence, what your rhythm

is and it allows them to then fall into a rhythm. There was an interesting

a rhythm. There was an interesting study, Angela, that I um identified. So,

as a part of researching my new book, which is coming out in January, Plantpowered Plus, I I have I I I got to figure out what the number is. It's over

a thousand studies that I referenced in this book. And there was this one where

this book. And there was this one where they took a group of people from the US and had them fly to Israel.

And they took microbiome specimens before they left the US when they arrived in Israel and they were jet-lagged and two weeks later.

And what they discovered is that the second sample, which is the jetlagged sample, was radically different than what it was when they started. So just

the time zone shift was enough to totally disrupt their microbiome.

And two weeks later when they checked the microbiome specimen, it was back on track. So basically like the first one

track. So basically like the first one was good, the last one was good, but the but the jetlagged one was totally disbiotic, totally messed up.

>> You feel yuck though, right? You

actually your stomach doesn't feel good when you I find when you travel. I think

that this is I think that the argument is what you feel is you are actually tapping into what's literally happening on a microscopic level. You can't see it, but you can feel it, right? What's

happening in your microbiome and the and like um how your stomach gets upset during that moment and it takes a period of time to recover. You've just sort of caused injury, right? So Andrew, they

took these microbiome specimens and they basically transplanted them, did a fecal transplant into mice and then they fed these mice and they

watched to see like what is their blood sugar going to do.

And what they discovered is that the blood sugar before the trip and the blood sugar after the trip were the same and normal, but the blood sugar when they were

jet-lagged was spiking off the charts.

So now, of course, that speaks to the connection between microbiome and our metabolism. There's many other

metabolism. There's many other connections, too. The point of that

connections, too. The point of that study from my perspective is that just changing time zones is enough to really disorient your body in a number of ways.

And we feel it with our jet lag. Right.

And what you're really feeling just in the same way that I feel that a hangover is microbiome based, jet lag is microbiome based for sure.

>> So interesting because as you say, right, it's not that you've changed the composition deliberately there, right?

It's not like you've actually been in the new country for a time where you've been eating differently. I noticed it as well when I was working as a corporate lawyer pulling allnighters or going at least, you know, into the night 3 4 a.m.

You probably had it the same as a medical doctor, right? In your junior doctor days when you were pushing that you would your stomach will not feel right if you haven't slept.

>> 30 hours. I was doing 30 hours straight.

It was quite bizarre at times. I felt

like I was walking on you know like walking on the air. It was the weirdest feeling.

>> Exactly. [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. But your stomach feels like twisted in that situation, right? which

you're saying is down to this change in the microbes. Super interesting. So,

the microbes. Super interesting. So,

this would apply a lot obviously to people who like work shifts and things like that when we look at meal timing.

So, we know that we've got the light cue uh and then dimming it in the evening.

What about meal timing? Because I

noticed, for example, if I track my overnight heart rate, HRV, eating close to bedtime really decimates my HRV, right? like on that night,

right? like on that night, what happens to our microbes when we do that?

>> Uh you're putting them to work while they should be doing something else.

And so you've basically hijacked the microbiome and you're creating inflammation in a way overnight.

So actually some of the research that we did at Zoey, we were looking at inflammation that occurs after meals and we discovered that there is a change

like actually that like eating food is inflammatory in a way. Well, guess what?

Eating like exercising is inflammatory, right? That doesn't necessarily make it

right? That doesn't necessarily make it bad. And I'm happy to explain the

bad. And I'm happy to explain the differences between that sort of inflammation, which is about getting stronger, versus chronic low-grade inflammation, which is just zapping your

energy and destroying your health. These

are not the same. But the but the point though is that um after a meal, we discovered that inflammation was most

strongly tied to our blood triglyceride levels. And our blood triglyceride

levels. And our blood triglyceride levels peak about 6 hours after the meal. and then start to come down. So,

meal. and then start to come down. So,

and there's actually a world of data, Angela, that exists to support what you just described that if you eat late at night, I would argue like the the simple

rule is like after dark, although I have to be careful with that because I know that it gets dark quite early where you live at times.

>> In the UK, it's going to be like 4:00.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So, let's let's not apply that rule to the UK, but like let's pretend 6 or 7 o'clock. Okay. So,

and you start eating after that time.

The problem is, let's imagine that you had a big meal at 9:00 p.m. at night.

Okay, I just said that your inflammation is going to peak 6 hours later.

So, you just peaked inflammation at 3:00 in the morning and then it's just starting to come down and you wake up and you eat again and

you actually never re got back to baseline.

So, and this is the problem is is that you are basically keeping yourself in an inflammatory state and you're keeping those gut bugs working. And really what we should be doing is nighttime should

be a period of fasting and rest for those microbes because they're shifting to rest and recovery mode. So, let them do it. Don't force them to do work

do it. Don't force them to do work through the night. Um, and you know, meal time wise, the data are very clear.

The earlier that you can shift your meals in the day, the better it is for you. So, like we would be better off if

you. So, like we would be better off if you were doing two meals a day, you would be better off doing breakfast and lunch than doing lunch and dinner. And

you definitely be better off than doing dinner and something late.

>> What are our microbes doing at night?

>> Um, well, so again, there's a there's a shift towards effectively getting into recovery mode at night. And so, and there is a

at night. And so, and there is a restructuring that occurs. There's sort

of a recalibration that occurs if you allow the gut to have a fasting period.

So the data would indicate that if if you allow the gut about 12 hours, you're starting to allow it to recalibrate towards a healthier gut microbiome. And

then prolonging that can provide even additional benefits in some way. So and

that's the nighttime is our opportunity for us to provide those kinds of time frames, right? Because during the day at

frames, right? Because during the day at some point, even if you're one meal a day, at some point you're going to eat during the day, >> right? So, nighttime is our opportunity

>> right? So, nighttime is our opportunity to allow those microbes to um to basically like recalibrate and settle back down and then reor reorient and power up for the next day.

>> Mhm. Yeah, that makes sense. Um you talk about four nutritional pillars in the book um in terms of supporting a healthy

microbiome. Can you explain those?

microbiome. Can you explain those?

>> Sure. So the the thesis of the book is that I guess just to step back for a moment the thesis of the book this book is about inflammation

and I see inflammation as the health related story of our time because it is behind first of all every

single autoimmune disease and we think about 40% of people have some sort of autoimmune or allergic type problem. Every autoimmune and allergic

problem. Every autoimmune and allergic disease, inflammation is that story. But

it also is behind our major uh our major risks, our major threats. So like heart disease cancer diabetes strokes Alzheimer's disease. It's behind mood

Alzheimer's disease. It's behind mood disorders. So like depression is

disorders. So like depression is neuroinflammation.

We have clear data at this point to say that it affects your mood. It's behind

hormonal issues. So I have a friend, Dr. Natalie Crawford, her book is coming out uh in April about fertility. The story

on her end is inflammation.

I was just in a meeting with Zoe. We're

talking about menopause. The story is inflammation.

So, um and really what the book is about is like, okay, so if inflammation is the problem, how do we address it? The

answer is through the gut.

We want to repair the gut microbes, rebalance them, and we want to restore the gut barrier because when you create a healthy gut barrier, 70% of your

immune system is on the other side of that gut barrier. So if the gut barrier is intact, the immune system is protected and safe and it's able to do its job and be tactical.

And when the gut barrier is broken, then things from your intestines can leak across like LPS, lipopolysaccharide, and activate the immune system and create chronic low rate inflammation,

which is what everything that I just described. So you asked me about the

described. So you asked me about the four pillars and basically what I discovered in researching this book is that you can go out across the globe,

Angela, and identify different patterns, right? So on Instagram and Tik Tok,

right? So on Instagram and Tik Tok, people fight over like, you know, they get tribal about what is my dietary pattern and they plant their flag and they yell at other people like, you

know, whether it be vegan or carnivore or keto or paleo or whatever it might be, right? People fight for that name,

be, right? People fight for that name, but the name doesn't matter.

That's not what matters.

What matters are the key essential nutrients that your body needs in order to have a healthy gut, repair and restore the gut barrier, and then calm the immune system. And I identified

four. And the reason why these four are

four. And the reason why these four are to me the most important are it's not just that these directly influence your gut microbes and your gut barrier. It's

not just that, but it is that. It's also

that these are the things that we're missing, right? Like there's no point in

right? Like there's no point in addressing the thing that's you're already sufficient or optimized. You you

can always tweak, right? But tweaks

don't lead to big results.

Big results come from when we find the thing that we're totally dropping the ball on and we address it and we get it to where it should be and then all of a sudden it's like you notice, oh my gosh, you

just like flipped the lights on on the factory and things are working the way they're supposed to again. So these four things are fiber,

polyphenols, healthy fats, and fermented food.

And you could go and take any of these dietary labels that people are fighting, you know, one another about. You can

take any person who's listening to this show and what I'm saying to them is if you apply these four things and make sure that you are optimizing them, you are creating a healthful diet that

is good for your gut, good for your immune system, and anti-inflammatory.

So, of course, a Mediterranean diet has these four things. That's what makes a Mediterranean diet healthy, but it doesn't have to be a Mediterranean diet in in order to make it anti-inflammatory. You have options.

anti-inflammatory. You have options.

Find what works for you.

It does kind of rule out carnivore.

>> It [snorts] does rule out carnivore in the sense that you're not going to get uh you're not going to get any fiber and you'll get very few polyphenols in carnivore. But, you know, look, the

carnivore. But, you know, look, the carnivore thing, I mean, we can we can talk about car the carnivore from my perspective. I think uh I try to not

perspective. I think uh I try to not like I don't want to get in the middle of like attacking people because it's not personal, right? I actually respect the fact that people try to change their

diet in order to improve their health. I

respect that. But I also don't think that that particular dietary pattern is ever going to be the solution for long-term health.

>> That's the thing. Some things work in the short term and you see an improvement in symptoms, but they're not a long-term strategy. Fermented foods I want to speak to you about because there are many people actually who struggle

with fermented foods. Um, for example, some people get histamine reactions, things like that. Do you think that everyone can move towards a situation like maybe through healing their gut

where they can tolerate fermented foods?

>> My second book, uh, which was my cookbook, addressed this issue head on because histamine intolerance is an emerging thing. We're seeing it. It's real.

thing. We're seeing it. It's real.

And it's interesting, Angela, because when that book came out, I actually got some push back in the UK because some people weren't really buying the histamine intolerance thing. And the

fascinating thing is here we are just three years later and they're actually on board now, too. So, people are starting to really accept this. And the

way in which we heal histamine intolerance is by healing the gut barrier which is the exact same goal that we

hold for the immune system. So that's an interesting thing because if you can heal the gut barrier then the histamine in your diet will not leak into your bloodstream

and for that reason you'll be able to address this health issue. So the goal for those people is ultimately to restore balance to their gut microbiome and restore their gut barrier to

competency.

And the way that we do that is so we we said four things fiber, polyphenols, healthy fats, and fermented food. Okay,

that I'm not saying that they should shoehorn fermented food and make themselves miserable.

My argument is that you take you take fermented food, you put a pin in it, put that to the side, and let's address the other three, those opportunities. And

let's also address the non-nutritional opportunities. We started off talking

opportunities. We started off talking about sunlight. That's just one thing.

about sunlight. That's just one thing.

We got tons. We could go all day, right? I mean, we could like between you

right? I mean, we could like between you and I, we got we could go all day on on on ways in which you can heal your gut that don't even involve a fork.

All right? But from a nutritional perspective, focus on the fiber, the polyphenols, and the fer and the uh the healthy fats. Put the fermented food to

healthy fats. Put the fermented food to the side. Heal your gut barrier.

the side. Heal your gut barrier.

And then what you'll discover is that in the process of doing that now you're able to start it might be micro doing in the beginning but you can start adding back the fermented food and you're going to be

like whoa this is like something has changed here and that is a beautiful thing because you will that in itself you don't need a blood test to prove this you have just proven to yourself that you have healed

your body >> yeah which is magical I mean it will it will feel amazing um for people that are struggling, how can they heal their gut bacteria? Uh their sorry, their gut

bacteria? Uh their sorry, their gut lining, how can they heal that?

>> The gut barrier.

>> The gut barrier.

>> Yeah. So, okay. The the one of the interesting things about the gut barrier is that it is the area of the most rapid

cellular turnover in the entire body.

So, your entire intestines are um 20 to 25 ft long. So like we're talking about

like you know 6 to 8 mters roughly um maybe slightly more and it's lined with this layer of cells and every 3 to 5

days you install a brand new gut barrier.

So Angela allow me to make an analogy to describe this. I want to go back to like

describe this. I want to go back to like medieval times. All right, let's pretend

medieval times. All right, let's pretend we're I know it's been a while since the show was on, but the show was so great.

Let's go to Game of Thrones. All right,

and imagine that we have this castle.

All right, and um so within that castle, we got kings and queens. Those are the listeners of

and queens. Those are the listeners of the show or you, Angela, you're the queen. And so, and within that castle

queen. And so, and within that castle wall, you're in there. We want to protect that. We want that to be strong.

protect that. We want that to be strong.

Now the problem is like the farms are not inside the castle wall, right? The

farms are outside. You have you have villagers who live outside the castle wall and they do good work to provide for the castle for the people that live inside. So that includes like bringing

inside. So that includes like bringing the food in, bringing everything that you need in from the outside world. And

they also defend that castle. If someone

comes to raid, they're the first line of defense. Those are your gut microbes.

defense. Those are your gut microbes.

the villagers outside the castle wall.

Those are those are your gut microbes.

And then you have the wall itself. The

wall is built to defend to allow the good stuff in, but to keep the raiders to keep the bad stuff out, right? Well,

that's your gut barrier.

Who is responsible for rebuilding and restoring this gut barrier every 3 to 5 days? It's your gut microbes. The

days? It's your gut microbes. The

villagers that live outside, they're the ones that are responsible for basically maintaining this wall on the outside, keeping it strong, constantly

reinforcing it. All right. And then

reinforcing it. All right. And then

inside the castle, you have your military. You have your army. The army

military. You have your army. The army

is not just randomly scattered all over the place. They're right there in the

the place. They're right there in the position to defend you. That's your

immune system. Your immune system is basically set up on the inside. If

something breaches the castle wall, the immune system goes to work to defend you.

And so, so this is basically the structure of the way that our body works is we have three layers of defense. The

first is our gut microbes. The second is our gut barrier and the third is our immune system. And so the way in which

immune system. And so the way in which we actually heal the second one, the gut barrier, which is our castle wall. The

way that we heal it is actually by empowering the microbes, which are the villagers outside. Because if you make

villagers outside. Because if you make them strong and healthy, then they're like every 3 to 5 days, they're reinstalling new bricks, new cement in that castle wall, they're maintaining it

tall, strong, and resilient. And when

you have that that resilience that exists in that gut barrier, it has a ripple effect throughout the entire body.

So, and and so this is basically the way that we approach that. So like I could go through so many things. We could talk about fiber and fiber that feeds these microbes, feeds those villagers, makes

them capable of doing their job. And

additionally, that fiber gets transformed into the short- chain fatty acids that basically that basically repair the gut barrier. Short- chain

fatty acids, specifically butyrate, are the thing that most sets the gut barrier for success.

So, and this is one of the arguments that I've made through the years where 95% of Americans are deficient in fiber.

British people about 90% about 90% are deficient in the UK. And so, we have an opportunity there where we could be empowering our gut microbes and

restoring our gut barrier by by activating this one nutrient.

>> How much fiber do we need?

Okay, so recommendations depend a little bit on where you choose to go.

>> Um, so typically the recommendation is 14 grams of fiber per 1,000 kilo calories in your diet. So that shakes out differently because like I'm a much

bigger person than you are, Angela. So

like I'm I'm quite tall and I'm also much heavier. So for me I probably need

much heavier. So for me I probably need about 38 gram of fiber per day. But for

women typically it's on the order of about 25 grams of fiber per day. So

those are the general recommendations that we accept. Now it depends. You go

to different places like Australia has a slightly different recommendation.

I think the point from my perspective is you could you could say like you know you could you could vary this ever so slightly. 22 versus 25 for women, 30

slightly. 22 versus 25 for women, 30 versus 38 for men. You could make those variances.

You'd still end up with 90% of people being deficient. So most of us are

being deficient. So most of us are somewhere in the range of like the average man in the United States is about 17 grams per day. The average

woman in the United States is about 15.

So we're way below where we need to be.

>> For someone who is deficient in fiber, is there a risk of them increasing it too quickly?

>> Sure. Definitely. Just in the same way that uh so I would love for uh your listeners to think of this

within an exercise analogy.

So, is there a risk to going to the gym and lifting more than your body is capable of lifting?

Yes. If I go and I slap down 350 lbs on the bench press, I don't think I can actually do 350 lbs and I might hurt something,

right? So, don't overwhelm the system.

right? So, don't overwhelm the system.

The gut is a muscle and that muscle when it's been training grows stronger.

But even when it's training, there are limits to what that muscle is capable of doing. And if the muscle hasn't been

doing. And if the muscle hasn't been training, then those limits are much less and it's much more fragile. And so

you need to go, I always say, start low and go slow. And that's what allows you to meet the gut where it is as a muscle and to start. And when you go slow, it's

the same thing that we do in the gym.

You don't like, you know, you don't start by benching uh 135 pounds and then jump straight to 300 lbs, right? Like

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Is there with fiber, is there a risk like or is there any circadian timing to fiber? So for example, having a lot of

fiber? So for example, having a lot of vegetables in your evening meal versus having more of that fiber at lunch, does that impact sleep, microbial activity, comfort?

>> We do believe that it impacts sleep on some level. And so but the advantage

some level. And so but the advantage there, you have to provide that with time because there's a biochemical pathway that has to unfold from fiber.

But what we what we think is that fiber helps to feed the gut bacteria and this can lead to the production of serotonin

through those gut microbes. And that

serotonin pathway is interesting because we talk about in the evening like so cortisol is our morning hormone.

What is our evening hormone? The thing

that's diametrically opposed and that's melatonin, right? Well, so the precursor to

right? Well, so the precursor to melatonin is actually serotonin.

So the serotonin that our body produces in the morning in our brain when we get light exposure in our gut through the consumption of fiber that leads to the production of

gut serotonin.

That serotonin becomes melatonin hours later.

And so and melatonin in the brain, just to be totally clear, the mel melatonin, I'm not claiming that the melatonin in our gut is uh essential to sleep, but there are pathways that coexist between

them through the gut brain access, but melatonin in our brain through the pineal gland is what allows us to get sleep at night. And melatonin in the

gut, so believe it or not, we have 400 times more melatonin in our gut than we do in our brain. That only makes sense when you contextualize it within most of

our serotonin is in our gut.

But it still makes you wonder, well, why do we have all the melatonin in our gut and not in our brain if if it's the sleepy time hormone? And the answer is that overnight melatonin repairs and

restores your gut.

It actually has been shown to restore the gut barrier while you sleep.

So when I talk about rest and recover overnight, that repair process, it's not just the gut microbes, it's also hormones that your body has produced

like melatonin that are having an effect on your microbes, on your gut barrier.

So So anyway, so just the the pathway basically is fiber leads to serotonin production leads to melatonin and that can basically influence this throughout your entire body.

>> Interesting. So then you know being deficient if you like in fiber and polyphenols and vegetables and fruits during the day and say a little bit like many people do with protein and saving

everything for your evening meal effectively, right? Um where you have

effectively, right? Um where you have that higher protein, higher vegetable intake, you could be really lowering the amount of melatonin and serotonin that's being produced because there isn't

enough time between even if you eat at 6 p.m., right? Melatonin production is

p.m., right? Melatonin production is kind of optimally around 9 to 10. You

almost need to kind of acrue more points earlier in the day it sounds.

>> So viber is one factor out of many and there are many factors that influence gut serotonin, brain serotonin. There

are many factors that influence gut melatonin, brain melatonin. So it's not just a fiber thing. But that being said, I do think that there are advantages to

getting uh fiber earlier in our day and and allowing this to unfold. And what

we're describing is like a micro niche within the broader fiber conversation because there's other factors that would allow that would make me want to argue in favor of fiber early in the day. One

is to promote a healthy bowel movement early in the day and having a fiber richch meal allows you to fulfill that and you have that good healthy bowel movement. You may even have a second

movement. You may even have a second bowel movement during the day. That's a

sign of health within the gut microbiome. When you are moving your

microbiome. When you are moving your bowels with greater regularity, that means you're producing more microbes because the majority of the weight of our stool is microbial in origin. It's

not the excrement of our food, it's microbes.

So more more microbial reproduction results in more bowel movements. And

then the I would also argue in favor of what they call the second meal effect which is that some this used to be called the lentil effect but we realized it's not just lentils it's resistant

starches and fiber where the food that you eat at one meal yes it will impact your blood sugar immediately following that meal over the next 3 hours. But the

second meal effect indicates that the food that you ate at your first meal will start to also influence your blood sugar at your second meal. And so having

that fiber early in your day allows you to get metabolically strong so that when you're eating lunch for example or you're eating your second meal later in the day you actually have tighter blood

sugar control and you know and the blood sugar thing Angela is interesting because what we've discovered is that abnormally high blood sugar actually

causes injury to the gut barrier.

And so, so this whole sort of concept of like regulating our blood sugar, don't get me wrong, sometimes people, there are people who take it too far, right?

They want to like get the lowest blood sugar at all times that you could possibly have. Well, that's not actually

possibly have. Well, that's not actually healthy because you have to eat food, right? And your blood sugar will go up

right? And your blood sugar will go up after you eat. That's that's metabolism.

That's perfectly fine.

>> And then you also, right, you have to then avoid all these foods that you're talking about because you're like, "Oh, I just need it so tight."

>> Um, that you and I on a keto or carnivore diet again.

>> That's right. That's right. And so so so I think that like there is like a nuanced conversation here. It's not to totally vilify all blood sugar at all times. It's very much like being

times. It's very much like being properly interpreted within the context of a meal. But the argument that I'm making is there's no advantage to having

a blood sugar that spikes to 160 when it didn't need to. It could have been 130.

And that 160, that difference, that delta is impacting your gut barrier. And

when it's negatively impacting your gut barrier, now you've created work that needs to be addressed. Right? I would

rather not have to fix. I would rather just keep it healthy and proactive in in in my approach.

>> How long does it take to fix it? At the

beginning of the podcast, you were talking about how the microbes changed with somebody who was jetlagged within 2 weeks when they arrived home. Um, if

someone has had a stressful period at work, maybe they've been doing what we were doing, right? Pulling two, three consecutive days, they've disrupted or they've traveled. Now they want to focus

they've traveled. Now they want to focus and get back into circadian alignment and eating better. How long will it take to repair their um microbial barrier,

their yeah, their gut barrier.

>> In order to properly repair, the environment has to change. One of the things that I discuss with the with my new book, Plantp Power Plus, is that

it's the environment that sets the the microbiome. And we have a a like, let's

microbiome. And we have a a like, let's just call it what it is. It's a god-like power that we have over these microbes allowing to shape that environment. So,

the problem is a person goes through stress, right?

We have to get them back to a parasympathetic state in order to offset the environment which was a sympathetic driver of

inflammation.

So ultimately in order to heal, we want those things like like the short- chain fatty acids to be proactively working for us. But we also

need to take away the things that are causing injury to our body. And the

things that are causing injury to our body can come in many different forms because as I said the environment is shaping this ecosystem.

So it could be food. You asked about ultrarocessed food in the rapid fire questions, right? It could be the

questions, right? It could be the additives within those ultrarocessed foods that could be causing injury to these microbes. Could be something that

these microbes. Could be something that was sprayed on the food. It may not even be ultrarocessed and it could be something that was sprayed on the food as the part of producing it. It could be

your sleep patterns like I mentioned the circadian story of getting jetlagged and how that can cause injury to the microbes and andro what you just brought

up is the brain gut connection where through sympathetic overdrive we actually trigger our brain to release

hormones that are intended to like basically put us in a position where we're ready to fight or we're ready to run. Right? That's our sympathetic

run. Right? That's our sympathetic nervous system when it's activated. The

problem is we live in a world that's constantly activating our sympathetic nervous system. And this leads to the

nervous system. And this leads to the inappropriate release of cortisol.

So now we're circling back to cortisol.

Cortisol in rhythm in the morning. When

you get that spike like an hour after you wake up, it's it's it's lovely. It

powers and propels your day. It's

exactly what you want.

What you don't want is high levels of cortisol flowing through your veins at 2 in the morning when you're trying to sleep. That's an activation hormone.

sleep. That's an activation hormone.

You're waking up at 2. You can't sleep.

Why? Because you're stressed out.

And then your body falls out of that rhythm. Cortisol at inappropriate times

rhythm. Cortisol at inappropriate times damages the microbiome, activates inflammation, breaks down the gut barrier. So the uh the point from my

barrier. So the uh the point from my perspective and you asked me how long does it take to repair and restore number one we have to address what is it that's causing the injury in the first

place. That's my point. But once we do

place. That's my point. But once we do that and we also get our body working for us not against us through dietary measures, through lifestyle measures, through circadian rhythm, through

supplements, through our connection to other people, through our spiritual connection, through addressing trauma, right? These are the different things

right? These are the different things that I discuss in the book. When we do that, then it actually healing can be very quick. So, and people will start to

very quick. So, and people will start to feel differences very like within a matter of days, you feel the difference.

And really reshaping the microbiome from my perspective, if you give me four weeks, I promise you, you will notice a radical difference. Healing is different for

difference. Healing is different for each of us. It doesn't always go at the same speed. We don't always have the

same speed. We don't always have the same starting point. If you take a person with ulcerative colitis, it's going to take longer.

But I promise you, no matter who you are, if you do these things for four weeks, you will feel the difference. You

will notice the difference in how you feel because that's your gut. It's

healing. It's

>> phenomenal. What do you What is driving the high rates of ulcerative colitis, Crohn's, bowel cancer? What's driving

that? At the moment, >> everything that you mentioned are those are microbiome based diseases. So, it's

important to call out and understand what the problem is because like in some ways, you know, we act like cancer is this nebulous thing that we don't know where it comes from. No, that's not

true. Cancer, like bowel cancer is a

true. Cancer, like bowel cancer is a combination of a disoriented microbiome and inflammation. And if I were to add a

and inflammation. And if I were to add a third thing, it's the absence of short- chain fatty acids because short- chain fatty acids have the ability to destroy cancer cells. So to me the issue that

cancer cells. So to me the issue that exists with these health conditions uh ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, these are what we call inflammatory bowel diseases,

your immune system is reacting to your microbiome and it believes that your microbiome is the enemy

and stuck in the middle between your immune system and your microbes is the lining of your intestines.

So that gets inflamed.

That is the manifestation of inflammatory bowel disease. We made the mistake for many years, people still do, of calling it autoimmune. That's not

actually autoimmune. Autoimmune means

that your immune system is attacking your own body. Your immune system is not actually attacking your own body. Your

immune system is attacking your microbiome.

And that's what inflammatory bowel diseases are. And unfortunately, your

diseases are. And unfortunately, your gut lining is stuck in the middle. So we

want to address those issues. We have to address the microbes because if we get a healthy microbiome and we protect the immune system, then

those issues I'm I don't want to make it sound so simple and easy. This the for people who have these health conditions and there's absolutely a genetic element. Don't get me wrong, for people

element. Don't get me wrong, for people who have these health issues, it's not simple and easy. It's hard.

But there are opportunities that exist outside of medicine. I'm not against the medicine. I think the medicine's

medicine. I think the medicine's crucial, but the medicine's not addressing the root of the problem. It's just allowing you to get yourself out of inflam

inflammatory mode temporarily.

We need to do something to address that root issue. And to me, addressing that

root issue. And to me, addressing that root issue is addressing the microbiome.

And when we talk about um bowel cancer, colorectile cancer, there's a clear microbial signature.

There's a clear-cut signal within the microbiome that's associated with the development of colorectal cancer. In

fact, Angela, there's a bacteria from our mouth called fusoacterium.

And if you want to be a nerd like me, start reading studies about what are the microbiome findings in colorectile cancer. And you're going to see this

cancer. And you're going to see this name showing up, fusobacterium. And what

I want you to hear is it's not supposed to be there. It comes from your mouth.

And because your gut is weak, because your gut is disbiotic, it's allowed to actually take hold in a place that it's not appropriate. It's

not supposed to be there. It would be rejected and removed by your gut microbiome, by those villagers. Those

villagers would basically say, "You're not supposed to be here. You got to get out." They're not strong and healthy.

out." They're not strong and healthy.

And so because of that, because they're weak, the fusoacterium can take hold.

And it's involved in it's found in about 50% of colorectile cancers. So again it comes back to strengthening the the microbials right the activity the

diversity but also that gut barrier. Um

when we look at you mention in the book you look at different artificial sweeteners and some have linkages when you look at mouse studies with uh cardiovascular disease some with bowel

cancer. um in those studies are they

cancer. um in those studies are they mega doses? Like do people cuz I think

mega doses? Like do people cuz I think the argument there see again this seems a polarized area a little bit like seed oils, right? Is that they're bad. No,

oils, right? Is that they're bad. No,

actually those are kind of mega doses and we don't use them in humans and they're safe. Um where do you come out

they're safe. Um where do you come out on this?

>> Here's where I come out on this. I I

understand. I think that sometimes like it's a matter of perspective because there are people who are champions for weight loss and they would argue well the zerocalorie sweetener is clearly

better than the sugar and then like they end up in a position where they're defending the against these studies because they still want that to be true that the artificial sweetener is preferable to sugar and so that's why

they're defending the artificial sweetener within that context. I

understand where they're coming from, but I am a a gastronurologist and uh for many years, for 15 years before any microbiome studies on this

topic showed up, I knew that if a person came into my office with bowel symptoms and I cut out artificial sweeteners, there was a very high likelihood that their symptoms would improve.

I've known that for a really long time.

That's not a secret. Then the gut microbiome studies start to show up and you see that there are changes that are occurring that you don't like. Now don't

get me wrong, a study that is done in a laboratory with an animal, nonhuman, and feeding for the sake of detecting a colon cancer,

th those doses are not the same as what you're feeding to humans. But it's also not intended to be. It's a mechanistic process, right? So if a person were to

process, right? So if a person were to drink diet soda beverages three times a day for 50 years, how do we simulate

that in a laboratory where we have 8 weeks, right? There's just not a great

weeks, right? There's just not a great way to do that. And my argument is that we shouldn't be building habits around these additives

because we do have alternative choices.

You do have alternative choices. So you

can say to me, well, my alternative is sugar. Yes, I would I would actually

sugar. Yes, I would I would actually I'll I I'll concede that. I would rather you drink an artificially sweetened beverage than a sugar beverage. I would

absolutely concede that because I think the data are even scarier with sugar beverages.

But is your only choice those two things or do we have other choices? Of course,

there's water, but water isn't the only other choice as well. We have tons of other choices, right? So, can we build habits? Can we can we create like for

habits? Can we can we create like for example um so I will often drink I I I I don't really

love drinking just iced water, right?

I'll do it. I feel better when I do it.

I don't really love it. So what do I do?

I put a splash of lemon juice in there.

Right? Is that not a better choice than a diet soda beverage?

So, I think that there's enough writing on the wall from my perspective that we should proceed with caution. I I'll be the first to acknowledge, do I have artificial sweeteners that are in my

diet? Yes.

diet? Yes.

But I am not allowing diet soda to be a daily habit. That's where I get

daily habit. That's where I get concerned.

>> Yeah. When something when, as you say, you're building habits around it. Um,

how do we know if we're healthy? What

does healthy poop look like? Or is it a microbiome test? What's the best way for

microbiome test? What's the best way for someone to understand?

>> I actually think the best way is very much intuitive because it starts with how you feel. So

I believe that in today's world, I am not against technology in any way. I'm

not against um wearables or laboratory testing. All right? But as a medical

testing. All right? But as a medical doctor, those things always come second to me asking you this one question. How

do you feel? Right, Angela? If you came into an office with me, you would sit down. I would sit down across from you

down. I would sit down across from you and I would say to you, "Hey, Angela, how are you feeling? Tell me about what's going on, right? And I want to hear that story." And then I'll look at your labs and I'll look at your

microbiome test, but I'm going to do those things after and I'm going to interpret them within the context of what you've told me. How do you feel?

So, that's the most important thing when it comes to our poop. You something

that's not often talked about. We talk

about how often.

We talk about what it looks like, which is the Bristol stool scale, but what we don't often talk about is how do you feel after you poop? Were you satisfied,

right? Did you did you get relief from

right? Did you did you get relief from it? Was it slightly uh euphoric?

it? Was it slightly uh euphoric?

That's okay to acknowledge. That is a real feeling when you feel that way when you have a satisfying bowel movement.

And those are signs of bowel regularity and a healthy rhythm. And rhythm is really important to your gut in the same way that it's important to your heart.

If I knock your heart out of rhythm, you can't walk. You'll collapse. If I knock

can't walk. You'll collapse. If I knock your gut out of rhythm, it's going to affect all of these other factors. Your

gut, your gut microbes, your uh your your digest, your gut barrier, and your immune system. So I think it's important

immune system. So I think it's important to understand that like having good regular healthy bowel movements, feeling satisfied after that bowel movement, these are windows into your microbiome.

These are windows into your gut rhythm.

And when your gut is in rhythm, when your microbes are happy, then you're going to feel very you're going to feel really good after you do that.

>> And I guess you get less symptoms of things like brain fog, for example, if you've got a healthy microbiome.

>> Okay. So what is brain fog? So you go into your doctor's office and you say, "I have brain fog." and they roll their eyes, right? It's not it's not that your

eyes, right? It's not it's not that your doctor is an It's that you're [laughter] I mean, maybe they are. They

might be, but the what's really happening there is they don't really understand how to even interpret that, right? What is that? They're not sure.

right? What is that? They're not sure.

And that that sort of moment of indecisiveness, they're supposed to know. They're the they're the expert.

know. They're the they're the expert.

So, it's actually a reflection on them.

They're not really sure what to do. Um

brain fog it to me is breakdown of the bloodb brain barrier.

So we have this gut barrier that's made of epithelial cells that are held together by tight junctions. Those tight

junctions are like the cement. Let's go

back to the castle of wall analogy. The

bricks are the cells. The cement that holds those cells together are the tight junction proteins. Right? That's how we

junction proteins. Right? That's how we build that wall. That's all we need those things. All right? Well, guess

those things. All right? Well, guess

what? You have the exact same cells in your blood brain barrier wrapping your brain protecting it. And you have the exact same proteins in your blood brain

barrier wrapping your brain protecting it. This is like the citadel. So if we

it. This is like the citadel. So if we go back to our Game of Thrones analogy, you got the citadel in the middle of the castle. The citadel is where you send

castle. The citadel is where you send the king and the queen when the castle wall has been breached. You got to protect them. So that's your last line

protect them. So that's your last line of defense. That's the bloodb brain

of defense. That's the bloodb brain barrier.

And so, so brain fog is the breakdown of the bloodb brain barrier. And the same things that can cause injury to our gut lining like inflammation. Inflammation

breaks down our gut lining. The same

things that injure the gut lining will also injure your bloodb brain barrier.

And when you get breakdown of the bloodb brain barrier in the same way that you could have leaky gut, you end up with leaky brain.

And that results in brain fog because there's inflammation in your brain.

Neuroinflammation affects your ability to think, to focus. It affects your mood. And neuroinflammation has been

mood. And neuroinflammation has been associated with Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease. That's inflammation

Parkinson's disease. That's inflammation up here. And the concepts are the same.

up here. And the concepts are the same.

If we can repair and restore the brain barrier, then we can allow the brain to be healthy, turn off that inflammation.

>> What's damaging that brain barrier?

>> It could be many different things. And

you know in the same way that what's damaging the gut barrier and you know inflammation actually causes injury to these to these tight junction proteins.

So the same is true in the gut. If you

create inflammation in the gut you will break down the gut barrier and the same is true in the brain. If you create inflammation inflammation in the brain you will break down the brain barrier.

Blood sugar could do it. So a high blood sugar in the same way that it affects your gut barrier it would affect your brain barrier. So there are many

brain barrier. So there are many different possibilities of things.

Stress, right? Stress can do this.

>> Last question then. menopause. You

mentioned that earlier. We see a lot of these symptoms in permenopause.

Increased bloating. Uh people would describe women describe brain fog for example. Um they get changes in their

example. Um they get changes in their gut microbiome as estrogen changes. Um

assuming that they are paying attention to their to their nutrition, right? So

they're eating sufficient fiber. Um

they're having those healthy fats, those polyphenols. How much of this then is

polyphenols. How much of this then is hormonally driven and they're going to experience some of these symptoms and how much of this can be supported by

managing stress, sleep, and nutrition?

>> Okay. So, menopause has I I feel become much more openly discussed in recent years and I celebrate that and it affects women as they age. And I'll

speak for all men. We want happy, healthy women, right? Our lives are enriched with wonderful partners in you.

We want you to be happy and healthy. But

the question is like is this empowerment of women to talk about these things?

There's certainly part of that. Or is

this that the problem is getting worse?

And I think there's that too. I think

the problem has gotten worse. And I do think that there are inflammatory connections between menopause uh menopause symptoms. And so if there's

inflammatory connections in those places, then we have an opportunity within the gut because the premise of my book is that if you heal the gut

microbes, if you repair and restore the gut barrier, then you will heal the immune system at the same time. And that

is an anti-inflammatory approach. And

the data in the menopause space would back me up because basically what you will find is if you dig into nutrition-based studies, you will find

that the nutrition of menopause is about increasing the quality of your diet. And

when you improve the quality of your diet, menopause symptoms are substantially reduced. We have data at

substantially reduced. We have data at Zoey backing this up. So, but what is improving the quality of your diet?

Well, it's the exact four things that we've discussed, right? increasing your fiber intake,

right? increasing your fiber intake, increasing your polyphenol intake, improving the quality of your fats. I

would argue improving the quality of your protein.

These are the that's not one of the four, but that's one of the opportunities that we have.

And when we do that, we're going to we're going to help ourselves from a menopause perspective. And I think that

menopause perspective. And I think that these other tangential things that are non-nutrition-based are opportunities as well. And so that means activating our

well. And so that means activating our circadian rhythm, thinking about our meal timings, taking uh in some cases supplements can be beneficial. For

example, prebiotic fiber supplements can be beneficial. And then like last but

be beneficial. And then like last but not least, nurturing, you know, the the the brain gut connection through human connection through spiritual connection,

addressing trauma when present.

>> Is there a probiotic that people can take that's helpful here? Okay, I guess let me that launches us into a bigger conversation about probiotics. You asked

me like are they good? And I said sometimes um because and you also asked me about fermented foods versus probiotics. So I

suppose we could we should unpack those things here. So the thing about

things here. So the thing about probiotics is that you have a unique microbiome and foster is different from mine. In fact,

mine. In fact, >> if you had a twin, I don't I'm not aware that you do, but if you did, >> then yeah, it would be different though.

it would be different. If you had a twin, you would only share about 35% of the same microbes. So, you have a unique microbiome. So, the idea of a probiotic

microbiome. So, the idea of a probiotic is that generally speaking, you have like this, you know, mix of strains. It

could be one, it could be, it could be 15, right? But no matter what, it's a

15, right? But no matter what, it's a one-sizefits-all approach to say, "Hey, I'm going to take this one-sizefits-all approach and I'm going to drop this into your into your microbiome, and I'm

expecting results.

I'm expecting results." Well, that's a complex thing. That's like transferring

complex thing. That's like transferring to a new school, walking in on the first day, and expecting that the whole school is going to love you,

>> right? Maybe it's not a fit. Maybe

>> right? Maybe it's not a fit. Maybe

there's complex dynamics there. Maybe

the unique nature of your microbiome is not going to accept these microbes or whatever. So the point from my

whatever. So the point from my perspective is that we are all unique and the idea of a probiotic is not to um uh put like pour cold water over the top

of probiotics. I have had thousands of

of probiotics. I have had thousands of patients who have benefited from probiotics. But the point is that we

probiotics. But the point is that we need to be targeted. We need to be smart. So that means basically like

smart. So that means basically like identifying do we have a randomized control trial for your goal? What is your health goal?

What do you want to do? and let's find the clinical study that backs up the probiotic. Let's administer that

probiotic. Let's administer that specific strain or that specific type in that specific amount and then let's see what happens because you may accept it

and you may thrive with it and if you do you win and then you keep that probiotic but you may also find that it does nothing

or in some cases upsets your stomach.

And if that is the case, it's not the right choice and we need to move in a different direction. And this is a um a

different direction. And this is a um a general argument for why I'm uh a believer more in prebiotics over probiotics because the prebiotics, look, I I don't know what your microbes

look like, Angela, but it doesn't really matter because I could drop these prebiotics in there and I know it's going to feed the good guys and you're going to get more short- chain fatty acids and they're going to repair your your gut barrier and that's going to

reduce inflammation. And fermented

reduce inflammation. And fermented foods, you were saying possibly better.

>> So here's my argument for fermented foods. Okay, so think of probiotics from

foods. Okay, so think of probiotics from my perspective as being more of a clinical a clinical tool, right? You got some specific clinical

right? You got some specific clinical goal and you're going to use that tool for that goal. That's different than fermented food. Fermented food is about

fermented food. Fermented food is about building a healthy diet that supports and nurtures your gut microbiome broadly. Not not like getting precise

broadly. Not not like getting precise because like one jar of sauerkraut is different than another, right? So you can't reproduce that

right? So you can't reproduce that perfectly in the fermented world space.

It's more so to say that fermented foods are an opportunity. And what we know from a study at Stanford University is that when you increase your fermented food intake for 8 weeks,

you can increase the diversity within your gut microbiome and that's a measure of health. And when

you do that, you simultaneously reduce measures for inflammation.

So the point from my perspective is if we're talking about this model of healthier gut microbes repairs and restores the gut barrier to reduce inflammation, I've just proven you that

through fermented food, you can fulfill that.

And there's no probiotic that I'm aware of that can yield exactly what I just said with regard to fermented food.

And that's the reason why I would make the argument that fermented foods in a way are superior because long-term long-term health, they can do more for you.

>> Which means I'm gonna have to eat some fermented foods. I'm definitely figure

fermented foods. I'm definitely figure it out.

>> I've got to figure it out. That's the

one thing I think that like all the others, the healthy fats, the polyphenols. I love the fruit, the veg,

polyphenols. I love the fruit, the veg, the fiber, fermented foods. I'm just not a fan of.

>> Okay, so this past month in I have a I have a private community called the Gut Health Collective and every month we take on a new challenge. So our

challenge this past month was with fermented food. And basically what we

fermented food. And basically what we did is like we made sauerkraut. We made

dilly beans. So it was like, you know, basically like green beans with dill and garlic and black pepperc corns. They're

quite delicious. I have a jar of honey with garlic sitting on my counter right now that's fermenting. So but the point from my perspective is you have options.

Sourdough bread.

>> Oh, I love sourdough bread.

>> That's that's a huge win. Sourdough

bread is the best bread. Um, so

sourdough bread, yogurt, kefir, you can replace that with plant-based options if preferred. That's that's a personal

preferred. That's that's a personal choice, >> right? But they're all those are all

>> right? But they're all those are all great choices.

>> Um, some some cheeses contain microbes.

Uh, we talked about kombucha. You also

have have water kefir. Um, we have miso, right? Miso is delicious.

right? Miso is delicious.

>> Miso. Oh, yeah. Miso. So I can have sourdough, miso, and yogurt. Does it um when you put sourdough in the freezer that creates more resistant starch?

>> You put any bread into the freezer, you put any strong starchy any strong starchy food into the freezer and that creates resistant starch.

>> What about when you then warm it if you toast it? Do you lose the resistance

toast it? Do you lose the resistance resistance?

>> You will lose you will lose some. You

will lose some. But it's the process you're basically it's the same process that potatoes go through when you heat and cool. M

and cool. M >> so you make potatoes, you heat them up, they cool down, you have more resistant starch, you heat them up again, >> um you're not going to have as much resistance starch necessarily, but as they cool down, you get even more. So

the point is you're like leveling it up like this.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So for people that that for people who aren't on YouTube, some of you are on YouTube, so you saw what I just did. I

just want to describe that that basically what I'm showing is that you're basically taking two steps forward, one step back. Two steps

forward, one step back. Two steps

forward, one step back.

>> Yeah. So my to round off, my my blueberry protein shake in the morning with yogurt and lots of blueberries and some sourdough is is hitting multiple spots.

>> Oh man, that sounds amazing.

>> Yeah, that sounds amazing.

>> And and what if you what if you took that sourdough bread and you put some avocado over the top?

>> Yeah.

>> And now we got the healthy fats. And

people don't realize how much fiber there is in avocado as well. And what

what do you think is causing the yellow and the green that's like >> stunningly gorgeous? M

>> those colors don't come from nowhere.

Those are polyphenols.

>> Yeah, it's true. I usually have them at lunch, but maybe I need to switch to breakfast. You've got amazing recipes as

breakfast. You've got amazing recipes as well in your in your previous book. Um

Dr. B, you have been amazing. Just I've

learned so much. I felt like I knew a lot about the gut, but I've learned even more today. Um thank you. Where can

more today. Um thank you. Where can

people connect with you? Buy the book.

The book is out in January, I believe.

Please.

>> The book comes out in January. I have a I have a publisher in the UK. I'm very

grateful for them. And so this book is available for pre-order now. So I would love for people to run out and grab their copy. Um have that locked in. And

their copy. Um have that locked in. And

the book is called Plantpowered Plus. So

the other thing I should mention real quick is that I'm the founder of a supplement company that basically we're trying to take gut health supplements to a new level. And we have a product

called Daily Microbiome Nutrition. And

um we finally we have wanted to be in the UK for a very long time and we finally are ready to launch into the UK.

So at the time that people are listening to this episode, it either should be available or very very close to available um where you are. And for the US listeners, it's already available.

For the Australian listeners, it's already available. For the Canadian

already available. For the Canadian listeners, I'm sorry, >> it's not yet available.

>> Canada is a whole another story. We

don't need to dig into that. But like

the regulatory in Canada, the red tape is off the charts. It's crazy. But

>> Australia was easier than the UK by the sounds.

>> Way easier. Australia is way easier. But

we also are manufactured in Australia and >> um so yeah, but no, Canada was quite complex.

>> And so the supplement, where do they go?

Tell us what it does and and where listeners can go.

>> Um yeah, so the the supplement is uh it's a powder-based It's I have it right here cuz I have it every single day. And

it's a powder-based drink that um tastes like sort of like a blend of berries. Um

and it contains three types of prebiotics. So like I talk about the

prebiotics. So like I talk about the importance of variety in the diet, right? The same should be true for our

right? The same should be true for our supplements. You wouldn't want to have

supplements. You wouldn't want to have just one type of fiber. You would want many types of fiber. You would also want resistant starch like we were just talking about. You would also want

talking about. You would also want polyphenols, which we've been talking about. So and when you get like an

about. So and when you get like an isolated fiber, you're not getting all those things. you're sort of

those things. you're sort of overfeeding, over stuffing that one thing. So, the idea is we have resistant

thing. So, the idea is we have resistant starch, we have polyphenols, we have fiber from seven unique prebiotic ingredients that are globally sourced.

We're NSF certified, which means that we're held to the highest standards.

We've subjected ourselves to the highest standards for testing. We are tested constantly for purity to for what's on the label, to say that what's on the label is actually in the pack. Um, and

of course, it's formulated by me and I'm very proud of it. And we've had thousands of people who write in and tell us the benefits they've gotten. So

that's Daily Microbiome Nutrition and the name of our company is 38 Terra and you can go to 38 terra 38 ta.com and you'll be able to learn more about

it and as I said we're going to be available very soon in the UK. We're

excited about it.

>> How exciting. Is this the way to start your day? Like is it good to have it on

your day? Like is it good to have it on an empty stomach first thing or what's the best way to drink it?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, we talked about like setting a circadian rhythm for our microbes, right? So, I'm of the belief

microbes, right? So, I'm of the belief that um actually consistency of meal time, right? We were kind of talking

time, right? We were kind of talking about that a little bit, but let me lock that in even harder. Consistency of meal time is a great opportunity for circadian rhythm. Like trying to be

circadian rhythm. Like trying to be consistent with when we eat.

And then this supplements is also an opportunity. I don't hear other people

opportunity. I don't hear other people talking about this. They should be we should be circa like we should have circadian supplement protocols. You

should take your supplements. You should

sit down on a piece of paper and divide them into two parts. What is what is uh appropriate for the morning and what is appropriate for rest and recovery in the evening. So to me, you could take this

evening. So to me, you could take this product. This product is very low

product. This product is very low maintenance. You could take it any time

maintenance. You could take it any time of day. But if I were to make my

of day. But if I were to make my argument, I would argue that it's a great way to start your day because you're hydrating, you're feeding your gut bugs, you're waking them up. When

you wake them up, along with the cortisol that you get in the morning, you're putting yourself in a position for that healthy morning bowel movement.

And let me just say, that's a great way to start your day.

>> Amazing. I'm excited. I'm going to get some of this when it when it arrives.

So, Plant Ploud Plus, the book comes out in January, available for pre-order now.

We will link to all of this in the show notes. and 38 Tara for the prebiotic

notes. and 38 Tara for the prebiotic drink, which amazing way to start your day. Thank you so much. I'm so excited

day. Thank you so much. I'm so excited excited for what's to come. Um you're

always doing new stuff. Um thanks again for coming on. Oh,

>> it's my pleasure, Angela. Thank you for having me and thank you for all the listeners hanging with us today.