Fractional General Counsel: A Startup's Secret Weapon for RAPID Growth?

and then what happened is that shifted into law and litigation being used as business strategy hey let's bury these guys we hear a lot in the patent world

and the Innovation World about the large companies innovating fast but then also burying the little guys you know taking their technology without authorization getting embedded into the government to

make regulatory issues harder for the small guys all this is happening and it's because businesses have been using law not just as kind of guideposts

anymore they're now using it as part of their business strategy and um entrepreneurs I think learn that the hard way most of the time and it's devastating and any business can apply

this whether you're a large Global business or a small [Music] startup welcome everybody to the podcast

and I am excited today to have my guest Jeff here with me how you doing man I'm doing great today how are you doing doing good now we quickly entered into the podcast I was just asking you about

um where you live you're down in Salt Lake which is just down the road for me because I'm in boy Idaho uh are you a skier a snowboarder if you want to distinguish okay right on have you been up this year yeah in fact we spent I

took my family up to up to Sun Valley last uh not last weekend the weekend before so a week and a half ago nice that's awesome you hit a storm cycle then right through there yeah it came in a few days before we got there so it was

great sweet yeah I was up uh two weeks ago I was up north in um camak it's a little Resort out outside boisey and they just I mean got dumped on you know

the kind of thing we had little plays were staying the next morning you wake up and there's like you know a foot and a half of new snow sitting on your car and you're like oh that's going to be amazing these storm Cycles the last few

few weeks have been great after a horrible December they have let's hope for some more snow do you uh snowboard or ski I ski okay yep you're up skan do you have kids I do I've got four kids two are in the house with me still and

two have moved out and those two came up with us with a friend and we had a blast awesome I got four kids too and uh my two older ones they're still in the house but they're teenagers they brought

some friends up too it's fun being able to ski and go out with the kids you know I've really that's a really cool thing it really is although they're getting faster than me and I'm trying to trying

to tell them that they're not so that's right you're like uh no we you go into the lodge to take a break and really you're I got to grab some stuff and I got to work on some stuff you just want

to break yeah yeah exactly that's awesome so for everybody listen we have like this kind of uh what you call it like score card thing that we just look at every guest we we're very selective

on on whenever I bring a guest in like we say no to like 99% and I'll even do just so you know J like a lot of the podcasts are just me I'm like I don't even want a guest cuz I go I would

prefer to not have a guest yeah than bring on someone just to to right fill in space or air I I don't I don't want to do that um you intrigued me though because of something that is really big

going on in the industry that I wanted to talk to you about and I think it's really big with um entrepreneurs especially in the startup phase that is

revolutionizing the way startups do business because there were some pretty big barriers for startups right and that was like you don't have the infrastructure of large businesses like

uh CFO you don't have you know attorneys all of this other stuff that the big companies all have because they have the resources everything else and the cost associated with getting them would just drain your cash flow so everybody's

nervous when you're starting a company and you're like when do I hire versus when do when do I I keep that cash flow right is like it's so devastating on the

cash flow a lot of times that that investment is just massive and people are like if I mess that up you know that that's a big deal and so you're an attorney right and you were patent attorney is that correct where you where did you start out doing that yeah I

started out with patent attorney role uh for about 10 or 15 years uh have a background in electrical engineering so it was a really easy kind of fit slid into that went out to Silicon Valley stuff so patent attorney but I don't do

that I don't do much of that anymore I'm more general counsel is what You' call it so somebody who advises on a variety of things and and gets the right people in the right place at the right time A lot of people are general counsel you

know especially starting out and they're like I don't really necessarily understand that um I brought on general counsel I think it was four years ago

and he actually became it was so impactful he became my coo so he's my general counsel but he's also the COO um and what I found was that was such a

pivotal position in my organization because of the way that they looked and understood things especially as an investment firm right and it it was Game

Changer for us but with that said that was 18 years after we' started our company you know what I mean that like a long time before that

um and so just so people know at the time as you probably understand Jeff I was paying the year before I brought him on $800,000 a year is what my

organization my company had to pay an attorney's fees just for basic stuff this is just ppms this is documents this is we're not talking about we weren't in

lawsuits Noe I totally understand So and I've I've managed budgets that big and bigger and legal is in some ways bigger than it should be but it's so critical in in today's age it's hard to it's hard

not to have it I mean I talk about this a lot from where we've gone and you can look at regulation and what's happened in the last 50 years it is mindblowing

as far as regulation goes and what's gone on and a lot of entrepreneurs as they come in because regulation helps the big guys always

right it helps keep competition out because if you can't afford to have a full-time General Counsel on and now you go I have to pay let's say $20,000 for

investment docks every time we're doing them and if I got these issues that I got to go I don't even know if I do it wrong I'm going to get in trouble you're like I I'm not going to stop or I'm just not going to do it or I can't compete so

like regulation helps the big guys out and I suppose you worked for the big guys starting out uh well you know in the patent world I did work for the big guys I work for IBM kind of the biggest

patent filer in the country maybe in the world and so I did I did that but uh it's not as fun right it's it's not as fun as working in the chaos of the small companies so but what you said is really interesting because I I was just reading

yesterday about some of the history of the development of General Council over the over the years maybe not reading material for everybody but but it but it kind of relates to what you're talking about there's kind of this as they described and several of these articles

seem to stem from the same maybe uh folklore about where General counsil came from in the early like 1900s General council is kind of like this esteemed business adviser and then

universities and big law we call it got together and they said hey let's replace all these older General counsil with these you know up and coming firms that are trying to establish huge law firms

but then the the point that you made that that is interesting is that in the 60s and 70s all of these alphabet soup agencies came about you know prior to that there were a handful full of government agencies now there's a whole

bunch of agencies they're all creating their own regulation they're all hiring their own attorneys they're all you know creating hassle in a sense for small businesses creating roadblocks for small businesses and and so there is a there's

been this cycle of how General council's evolved and a lot of it has to do with how the how all of the regulatory uh environment is evolved I honestly I think today you don't have any big

companies or firms that don't have not only general counsel but I mean you you've got firms that have general counsel and then they have attorneys for

all sorts of different stuff like oh yeah in Departments of attorneys yeah it didn't used to be like that though so how did this really evolve it to where we're at I mean it it's the it's the

regulations uh that have happened and then in the you know according to these articles I was reading I wasn't here at the time but the regulations changed it made it caused a need for businesses to

be a lot more compliant than what they might have been otherwise because the compliance issues didn't even exist in the same in the same manner and then what happened is that shifted into law

and litigation being used as business strategy hey let's bury these guys we hear a lot in the patent world and the Innovation World about the large companies innovating fast but then also

burying the little guys you know taking their technology without without authorization uh getting embedded into the government to make make regulatory issues harder for the small guys all

this is happening and it's because businesses have been using law not just as kind of guideposts anymore they're now using it as part of their business

strategy this is very interesting because I think a lot of people would say that's part of the business strategy but only if I'm in a business and I'm

doing you know hostile takeovers or something like that but that's actually not true I think people would be very surprised so what are some of the strategies that people are really using

particularly legal departments and everything to deploy well if I can uh I love strategy and so let me let me tell you what I what I call strategy first of all because I think it'll set the

groundwork for how I talk about it strategy has five parts to it and any business can apply this whether you're a large Global business or a small startup you know you have a a plan that's not surprising you need a plan to deploy

valuable resources a lot of time that's that's your IP that's your team that's your technology right that's your brand so a plan to deploy valuable resources

for a competitive Advantage uh that's sustainable in a in a competitive market and and for a leadership objective in that market and and I say this because I want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing a lot of times

people say let's talk about strategy and they're like well I have a plan we're going to create these these things and we're going to launch them and we're going to make a lot of money that's not a strategy you haven't talked about what the competitive environment is is you

haven't talked about what the business leadership position is that you're going to take relative to all of your competitors and you've got to have that for strategy to be part of this so with

that said legal teams evolving and uh legal tools and tactics being incorporated into business strategy we're saying Hey how do how have

businesses taken what used to be legal compliance and turned it into a sustainable competitive Advantage perhaps making it so that their competitors have a harder time dis

placing you know me for example my competitors have a hard time displacing me from my leadership position that I've that I've developed in my in my field and so that's really what we have to be talking about I think is that

competitive Advantage how you sustain it and how you displace you know you take a leadership position and you keep people out from your leadership position you know it it this is a really interesting

topic because strategy when we're talking about business strategy in a world of Regulation like we're in which there's I I mean it it's shocking especially in

some Industries there is no strategy that does not involve legal in most businesses at this point that is true um I have a a very

close friend he's been on the podcast a few times um rock but he built this huge gy apparel company right and the

strategy that we talk about and that we you know he's deploying where you're working with manufacturers you're looking at IP you're looking at all of

these things is 100% involving legal and he's talking with attorneys he's on phone right and it is just simply the business strategy but that's encompassed

now like 50% of the strategy right where um I think a lot of people they view an attorney as I call you if I need help yeah that is not how it works today no that's a that's a you're at a huge

disadvantage if you're doing that and I don't say that because I'm an attorney I've seen how how businesses get behind you know you you develop all I call them skeletons in the legal closet right they're just out there you don't do

anything you get all this it's it's equivalent to Tech debt right you build your Tech stack and it's it's all on this old technology new tech new technology comes along and some new company can build faster and better and

quicker and launch it and people are happier and because you've got all this Tech debt well you got a lot of legal debt usually because you haven't involved attorneys you kind of push stuff off to the side put it in the

corner until it becomes overwhelming and and there's this legal debt to your to your company you know I suppose don't want to make any assumptions but after

18 years of of not including an attorney uh maybe you I guess you were using attorneys along the way but bringing your own friend in house he probably was able to clean up a few things that had

gone untouched for a little bit right shocking like it's hard to even it comes down to one of this idea that the way it's changed our strategy is hard for

for me to understate uh what we could have done if we would have employed not just attorneys to do filings to call if there was problems llc's legal setups

blah blah blah blah but actually incorporated into our strategy my company would have it would have been 5x times what it is today because our

assumptions associated with a lot of the key things that we were doing in business were wrong because I didn't understand so there was Avenues of

business strategies that we didn't even look at or go down because of legal assumptions that and when I say wrong people go oh okay but I talked to somebody wrong they were right in the

premise so it's not like I was wrong but that's not how the law Works they're like no you're right but only in this way there's this way and now you can do it and all those assumptions are wrong

and I'm like wait what yeah so I'm not wrong they're like no but if you move it here then you can do it and it opened up

our entire business so much to the point that I created a brand new company or LLC around deploying it and we doubled

the company that took us 15 years in three how do we get everybody to see this Vision that you've that you've seen because a lot of people don't have that right and if they're strapped with resources they're strapped with time

they're trying to push this huge idea out into the world that didn't exist before and and and it's tough but but uh there's you've really hit onto something

that legal really touches 85 90 maybe more percent of of every company and it's not like we want this but like that's the thing everybody it's not like this is like something that we're like

necessarily that this is a good thing but I think it's something that if you don't understand legal is not a component of lawsuits or filing anymore

it's not that's not how it works where used to be once again that's what legal that that's how you utilized attorneys I need to file and I need to protect

myself either against the lawsuit or I need to sue somebody yeah when I went in house I I I don't have the the diagram with me but I went in house and I I two things happened I said I've been practicing law the wrong way because I

was doing it like attorneys taught me not like businesses needed and uh to do it the right way I said well cuz I was you know in-house meaning I was the only attorney they they looked at me they

hired me for my IP skills and then they immediately said hey we've got contracts we got entities in China we got HR issues all this stuff and I said whoa you know this is cool but what like

what's really the extent of the legal implications across the different divisions and functions in a business and so I mapped out this Branch tree of all the functions at a business and then

I highlighted everything they had at the time I was looking specifically at an IP so patents and trademarks something like that but even for even for patents and trademarks it was literally like my whole my whole diagram almost turned

green because that was the color I was using saying okay IP touches this one IP touches this and it's everything from the board to your Tech Team to your uh

to your licenses to your um project development to your manufacturing to you know you name it it's it's in IP alone is in 80% of the company legal is in a a

bigger percentage just it it is so to make your uh general counsel you hired your coo it's not very common but it's uh not really surprising to me at all

you mentioned like IP and other things we legal after Thea is really bad and I learned that really quickly right it's like you you don't call them after the

fact because then they're just like what do you want me to do here like now it's you know you've got to work within what is done so it is now more of a process but it could have all been avoided and

the legal the cost associated with upfront is nothing compared to the cost of the back

end when you have to call them after the fact like it's nothing compared and um entrepreneurs I think learn that the

hard way most of the time and it's devastating I know I did yeah sounds like you survived your learnings a lot a lot of a lot of people don't survive their learnings that these you know and

it doesn't happen to everybody that's the hard thing is you never know know what you don't know and so if you if you're I I call kind of call it the first-time founder syndrome right firsttime Founders they just they're

eager they're going to go sell make sell you know grow this thing they don't know what they don't know they don't have those advisors Legal Financial otherwise around them and so they just are you

know bowling the china shop break things we'll just fix it later and some things you can fix later there might be tax consequences there might be some legal finagling we got to do to get things settled we might have to create part

parter ships that didn't exist we might have to document you know stock options that were promised but never granted like there's there's a lot of cleanup that can be done but it's the common story that happens way more often than

it should is I had this great business uh everything was going really well and all of a sudden something happened I should have known better I kind of had an idea early on but I thought it

wouldn't be a problem and then it cost me $500,000 cost me $750 a million whatever cost me my business cost me my business perhaps and to some it is not guys we're thinking like losses it's

literally strategy as in somebody else overtook me somebody else did this I didn't know or it's it's literally I just my my company started to a road

away yep I think when you think it's not that there's nothing that you can do but it's here's what you can do so beforehand it's what do you want to do

afterwards it's here's what you can do here's your three options yeah whereas before it's like what do you want to do yeah where do you want to go where do you want to go let's just do it let's how I can construct it how you want to

go down afterwards it's here are your three options which one do you want yeah bad worse worst yep exactly 100% now and I think though to because we talk about

this and you know even on this point there's obviously legal we have to talk about the the negative sides of them because that's a real part yeah but for the most part that's what I wish people

would change their mind on and understand like I'm using for example the moment we brought in when we started using legal as a way to build be

proactive as a way to actually be competitive on and on and on it changed the way we did business instead of looking at as this is not an investment

this is a cost center and we only do this you know kind of break the glass yeah instead bring them in at the table and some people may go well yeah then you have large legal bills don't

obviously call the attorney for every little thing that's all we're talking about but as you're making plans lots of major functionalities of the business if you're building out everything we're

talking IP Executives stocks ownership debt large contracts strategic Partnerships investors yeah yep like they need to be involved from the the get-go I can't tell you how many people

I know that were like oh I just gave my executive some Equity did you did you actually and did you and what did you give them and what did they think that they got

and what does that even mean well I'm taking that Equity away now because they quit yeah you are that's you know what I mean like they're so used to just kind of doing what they want you know a lot

of entrepreneurs and that that can fall apart real quick so using them using this part as a strategic option to build your company in a good way a better way

that saves you money that keeps you of course um at less risk but also then capitalizes on opportunities that was I think probably the biggest change for us

um and how we did it it really did change the company now okay obviously but now everybody's going to get on the problem that cool bro I don't have 400

$500,000 a year whatever that may be to hire a general counsel type thing and this is where once again your story became very interesting to me tell us you know how you evolved and how this

evolved for you and the company you started up uh chaos maybe just you know I know I actually went to law school after not getting into the seven business schools that I wanted to go to

right after engineering and if Buddy said hey come go you know you should go to law school engineering degrees are kind of hot and I and so I went not on a whim but you know without much forethought prior to that and uh it's

been great frankly you know having an engineering degree getting my law degree was a great a great fit to get into patent law working with a lot of innovators over time I realized that my clients were working on way cooler

projects I mean a lot more cool things than just the invention and I wanted to be a part of that so I kind of made some strategic moves in my career to say I want to I want to become a general counsel I want to work with in a

different capacity a broader capacity with my clients so I went and got my MBA I went into a had this idea of going to a gen What's called the general practice Law Firm getting some general experience

and that fiveyear plan turned into a five- Monon plan when a company came along and said hey we want you to come be our our legal for this startup ra $70 million so I did that and you know all

of this um as I mentioned before all of this led me to realize when I that like two week within two weeks of starting that job I said I've been doing it wrong and I don't this is kind of a paradox I have not resolved for myself even to

this day lawyers attorneys go to law school they're supposed to be the best communicators they're supposed to be so strategic and a lot of them are in their own way but but we have as an industry

made it really really hard for our clients to use us and incorporate us into their conversations and so when you tell me hey I you know I didn't hire somebody for 18 years I'm not surprised

when I hear a Founder say I don't have money for that I say I'm not surprised because we've made it difficult for you to use our expertise where did that come from that's the that's the most backwards thing I've I've seen in

business in a long time building barriers of entries to literally the services that you provide yeah yeah not just barriers to your competitors it's barriers to your clients that that really struck me and I'm like I I

literally said to myself I've been doing this the wrong way for the last 10 years or whatever because I've been doing how attorneys taught me and and as soon as I got in it's a you know startups they're fast moving they've got investors they

want things done they want you got to go across the board on on issues you don't have time to dig in and write memos it's just like what needs to be done today how well does it need to be done how complete does it need to be so that the

team can keep moving in the direction they're trying to go and and that's just not how a lot of lawyers who haven't been inhouse think they just they're not used to that and it's it's kind of like

having a baby you don't know what it's like to have a baby until you've had a baby and then you're like Oh I thought I knew but this is like now I really know now I'm in house now I've got the executive team sitting in the offices

next to me and they need all these things done you're like oh it makes sense I should have known but I didn't really know until I came here and I felt the demands and saw the the the collaboration that's happening in the

executive site so it's a it's a totally different mindset walk through how it works like you set up this company to to do it differently right to hit these

problems how I'm sure people going okay this is a new model this is a new business model that either I've heard in other spaces but not with attorneys or maybe they haven't heard of it at all uh

so when I left that company I kind of inadvertently fell into what we would have called an outside General Council role they said hey we're going to move you know help us find a new general counsel cuz I was going to stay in Utah and so I thought two or three months

I'll help the them find general counsel well 19 months later they finally hired new general counsel and for that whole time I was outside contracted general counsel for them uh today we would

probably just call that fractional general counsel the same as you hear for fractional CMOS fractional CFOs people come in they're part of the leadership team but on a not on a full-time W2

basis necessarily and so I started with that model just by happen stance because of the the way the transition worked with with the company I was employed with and then realize over about a year

that a lot of people who get into that role as attorneys because there really is a demand there is a need for access to attorneys um if you start practicing as a fractural council what you'll

probably find is you'll find in six to n months you're going to fill your entire schedule up that's awesome but then those companies that you're working with are going to start growing because the whole idea behind fractional is that you

have this ability to scale with your clients as they grow well if you have a full schedule and every body's growing you're now in the same situation that you hated 5 years ago overworked maybe

underpaid maybe not but definitely overworked and you're like I can't keep doing this so I see a lot of people jump into fractional roles and then they you know they get a full schedule in 9 months 12 months later they're like I

got to step back one of their clients says hey come and come and be our general counsel and they're like yeah I'll make less money but I I I I can't do what I've been doing yeah they burn out in 12 months and so I looked at that

I said well that's not my path I don't want want that right it's not sustainable from a strategic standpoint it's not which then isn't good for your clients yeah it's not good for me it's not for the good for the client so what I what I did is I I just made a simple

pivot I think it's super simple nobody else is doing it that I've seen although I'm starting to hear kind of Rumblings of other law firms doing it which is awesome I I love it and that is I just said these companies don't need one

attorney because one attorney is great at a few things and not necessarily great at others they're and they're they're a bottleneck right another thing by the way just slide point you learn as an

entrepreneur that just because an attorney is really good at one thing does not mean they're good at others and that can be very damaging um and so just

adds up that for people that don't know like you think an attorney is an attorney that's not true so that's a really good point that's important yeah and so so I said well what is what do these small businesses need because

that's what kind of my passion is getting in seeing and maybe helping organize some of the chaos in these small businesses and I said well you need someone to help with your contract you need someone to help with your

employment my background is is IP heavy so I work with a lot of innovators and you know new brands coming out and then you need just this breadth of legal experience why don't we just form a team

around it and instead of being a fractional single attorney why don't I why don't we just make this a fractional legal team we're essentially the same legal team that any company that's you

know maybe midstage would would go in higher you just do it on a fractional basis and so not only do you get the the kind of the fundamental benefits of a

fractional legal adviser on your team you also get all five or six or how you know you get the whole team you get the breadth of of practice areas you get you can kind of tap into everything you need

I I say it's the right expertise from the right attorney at the right time that's really what this is about and it's a growing Trend and it's going to keep growing I'm really excited about it and and loved have loved seeing how we

can actually move into a more collaborative you know leadership integrated role with our clients rather than as you said before standing W back there waiting for

somebody to break the glass and say hey Jeff I I need you to fix this one problem that I that I noticed even though I I probably have 12 others that I didn't know about well and uh thing that I like about this that you brought

up that I obviously didn't know is the approach of that team approach because you know we talk about like like I have a general counsel I also use outside attorney front now people may go why

that doesn't even make sense and I'm like but he doesn't do some of these things so he's the one he's like hey you need an attorney that does this and this

now I still spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on attorneys firms because one attorney can't do those things yeah and so a lot of times when

we viewed even fractional attorneys it was a lot more um just processing so you'd have to pick where's the bulk of load of work that we do so let's say it

may be contract reviews of vendors yeah so then I'm going to look at a fractional um attorney that does contract reviews that's like their big thing right and then I'm going to work

with them and then they're going to take that amount of workload off but that's it's this fractional position to do this much work and then we move on where I like what you're talking about is

there's access and it's more of a collaborative and that that really plays into this idea that we were talking about before where it's more of a strategy like we can look at things as

opposed to a process yeah right just getting rid of certain costly processes that we're Outsourcing it that it's very different that's what I'm trying to say and I think a lot of people once again you have to stop thinking about an

attorney as an attorney that's they're just an attorney that's what they do it's that's not how it how it works that is the same thing as saying that a surgeon is a surgeon

right you don't have knee surgeon working on your brain or your eye hope not going to end well no and and in fact it's I've I've heard this analogy before

um where I forget what the what the term is but when you have a critical case right that that requires a team of Surgeons a team of doctors they'll actually get together in their conference because they each have different Specialties they say and

they'll say hey if we do this what what's going to be the implication well you can't do that or you know we need to be mindful of these things so they'll actually conference and that's quite honestly what we do as a team we have

very regular meetings internally as our own team because we're conferencing on each of our clients we're saying hey we were working with this client this e-commerce client or this SAS client you know what are they working on who else

needs to step in we usually have a point of contact but we usually need to draw on another attorney and and so it's a lot of it's a it's a very much a team approach not just from who you can

access on our team and the and the skill set you get but internally we very much operate as a team internally and I think this goes to my point like you know my mission that I did is I was simply like

okay I'm going to teach what I do because of something that happened I became paralyzed and big story but I I'm going to teach what I learned how to do right and the next thing though was I there's a huge problem that has

developed over the last 40 50 years where like the difference between the wealthy right and the rest became bigger and bigger and bigger and one of the

largest reason was simply access through regulation meaning that people literally do not have access to the same things that the wealthy do and I'm talking about Investments opportunity right so I

created a firm that helped us become wealthy and independently wealthy doing what we did to allow other people to have access and we were trying to break

down walls and so what you've done is the same type of thing for entrepreneurs and stuff General like I'm trying to do for Main Street and the whole point of

it for me and this is why I was so interested why I like it is this this is going to be a growing Trend Because unless this regulation disappears which it's not it's not going to um it it this

will become more and more of a problem and so my viewpoint was I'm never going to let the government or try to wait for the government to save anybody the private sector we need to figure out

solutions to provide access resources and people Downstream and two I think you can do it in be in a profitable way technology is really helping with that

and that's a big change um and so I think this is really important and a lot of people like you go oh yeah it's important for no this is important for the marketplace it as even as a consumer

you don't want to be held to only a few companies because no other companies can compete as a investor you don't want to only have two options when wealthy have

a 100 yeah and by the way all 98 of those options are better than anything you'll ever see uh that that's not good that's not good for society and so I

think this stuff is really important um I I really believe in it it's like my mission and like my why and I think it's becoming more of a problem and it's going to get worse I share that passion

with you to be honest and I love that I love that you use the word to access because in in the legal field there's this term access to Justice we hear about it a lot from you know people in

maybe uh landlord tenant suits or or lower economic classes not really having access to the legal justice system like they should and so people people can't

get that I made this exact same argument uh I don't know what today is two weeks ago I made this argument to the Utah State Bar because I I said hey we really need a section A SE a section of the bar

that caters to fractional legal council because the way we practice is different and I said one of the reasons we need this is is quite literally access to justice for startups and small companies you know we've created a system like I

said that makes it difficult for them to get access to the to good legal counsil that an able rate and not that it makes it cheap but just if you know how to deliver the right pieces at the right

time even high hourly rates don't have to be that expensive overall you can you can get access to justice for a fraction of what you know we might have charged

under the normal traditional uh let me write you a memo legal systems and this is the problem in not just legal not just Investments everywhere it it this is the problem with education it's

access so even if you look at all these Industries and um for those of you that are watching this on YouTube you can actually go I I made a whole video on and I went through like four different

Industries and showed the change from the 1970s and really the Chevron laws and what happened when we took when we

separated our um elected officials from the creating and enforcing of Regulation and since then that separation where now it's just we sign

bills we pass heads of departments are enforcing and creating rules and it it that system is it it is wild when you see it like everybody you need to go check out that video because when you

see the information it blows your mind away at how much admin has grown and like if you look at um education was a

perfect example where over the last um you know 40 50 years you've had a like 80% increase in teachers and you've had

an 800% increase in admin but you've only had 100% or you've had 120% or something like that increase in these students yeah so teachers aren't even going up with the students yet admin is

going at a multiple of both of those things and and then I walk through and you can see this on every single industry and you're like you we wonder why output has gone down in this country

we wonder why what we're getting versus what we're paying for is not the same well it's it's actually not that complicated like what produces the

results is out of whack yeah and this this trickles down you go oh but the private sector but like you're saying we're talking about legal everything else this massive increase of Regulation

has the exact same effect so corporations businesses and everything the amount of admin that it takes now to Simply

execute has bloated and that helps monopolize essentially in a free market companies yeah and it stifles

competition so what you're doing I believe in because I believe that it actually helps preserve a Marketplace

that is really struggling right now to be an Open Marketplace that benefits consumers yeah thank you I I I feel by bringing this type of access to Legal

expertise to startups and scaling companies we do level the playing field a little bit you know we got a lot of inventors a lot of people starting Brands and and they just feel overwhelmed because they're like well

what do I do with it now like I have this great idea like how do I bring it to Market how do I get it out there and and how do I not get crushed by somebody who is in a in a position that could

crush me and and it's it's kind of heartbreaking at times to see that that really it's not all that common but it's too common right it does happen enough that that people can't get can't get

these ideas off the ground and so we're trying to help with that uh just to some degree well man I I mean obviously we could talk about this this I'm I'm passionate about it fascinated about it but obviously I don't want to take all

all of your day where can we send people to find out about you your company and what you guys are doing to help entrepreneurs in the marketplace yeah the two things I'd say go go to LinkedIn

connect with me I'm pretty active there you can get a hold of me uh if you if you start out with a pitch I'll probably not respond but if you want to talk I'm happy to happy to connect on LinkedIn and have good conversations you'll see some content there then the other places

our website we do we do free strategy calls for potential clients so some people want to get on just talk strategy talk the mess they've made talk maybe how to clean it up a little bit where they're headed with their road map and

and obviously I enjoy that type of stuff and we will have those links everybody in BIO so you can jump down there too to make it easy for you um so go follow those links check it out uh Jeff I

appreciate it man great discussion I appreciate what you're doing I think it's important um and thanks for coming on to to share everybody uh what you're company's doing AJ it's been my pleasure

thanks so much

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