Full interview: Google CEO Sundar Pichai on the ‘AI boom’ and the future of AI

Well, thank you for joining the BBC uh Mr. Pai. Um and particularly at this

Mr. Pai. Um and particularly at this time in the in the stock market, in the investment charts, just being around this part of the world right now, there's obviously something really important happening the rest of the

world needs to know and and it's great to be able to get your answers to these questions. How would you characterize

questions. How would you characterize what is happening in Silicon Valley right now?

>> Well, it's an extraordinary moment by uh even by Silicon Valley standards. You

know, every decade or so, you know, you have this inflection points. You know,

you have a new technology was a personal computer. Uh, at one point, the internet

computer. Uh, at one point, the internet coming in the late '9s, then it was mobile.

Uh, then it's been cloud, what we call as cloud, uh, now it's the clearly the era of AI and and that's the excitement uh, you probably felt around campus as

well as uh, in this whole region.

And and can you give us a sense of of the scale? Clearly the metric that

the scale? Clearly the metric that people kind of go to is the market cap.

These are extraordinary numbers for you at three and a half trillion, Nvidia at 5 trillion. The sheer amount of

5 trillion. The sheer amount of investment going in.

Give us a sense of scale.

>> One way to one way to think about the scale is the what we are all investing in capital to build out the infrastructure that's needed for uh artificial intelligence.

You know, maybe four years ago, Google was spending less than $30 billion per year. This year, uh, that number is

year. This year, uh, that number is going to be over $90 billion.

And if you collectively add what all the companies are doing, uh, you know, we have well over a trillion dollars of investment going in in building the

infrastructure for this moment. And one

way I think about it is in the next couple of years, we'll end up building what we probably built in the past 10 to 20 years. So hopefully

20 years. So hopefully >> just in a couple of years.

>> That's right. So that gives you the the scale at which this is ramping up.

>> Now you mentioned some of those phases of technological advancement that happened with much market excitement as well. And the obvious question it's

well. And the obvious question it's around the whole of this country and the whole world right now is is it a bubble?

>> Um look the There are two ways of thinking about the question. I look at the actual progress we are making in terms of the model capabilities and the

progress is palpably exciting and people are using this uh and we're deploying it in our products. Consumers are excited about using it. We are giving it to

companies. They're using it to make

companies. They're using it to make their companies better. So you see real demand and we are constrained in our ability to serve that demand. So you

know so and and given the potential of this technology the excitement is very rational. Uh it's also true when we go

rational. Uh it's also true when we go through these investment cycles uh you know there are moments we overshoot right collectively as an industry

uh we can look back at the internet right now there was clearly a lot of uh excess investment >> but none of us would question whether the internet was profound or did it

drive a lot of impact it's fundamentally changed how we work digitally uh as a society I expect AI to be the same so I think It's both rational and there are

there are elements of irrationality through a moment like this.

>> I mean you just described your excitement about how Google's kind of hardware which is the key scarce resource. I guess would your argument be

resource. I guess would your argument be I guess it would be that whatever happens whatever appears to be a frothy exotic deal from one of your competitors

um Google will be immune from any bursting of the bubble because of your you know spectrum uh of investments across all technologies

>> uh no company is going to be immune including us uh if you overinvest you know we'll have to work through that phase But you know we are um I think we

have better positioned uh for for many years we've taken a deeply differentiated approach to how we've approached AI. One of the first things I did as CEO was to shift the

company to what I called as a AI first approach and part of that was doing all the parts of what it takes to build great uh AI technology. So we call it a

full stack approach. Uh you can think of it as a soup to nuts approach. all the

way from the underlying physical infrastructure to the research that you need to do to drive this technology forward to deploying it in products and

platforms uh be it search be it in YouTube be it in Android uh and so on right and so we have taken the deep approach so we are able to invest at

scale and make it work across all these products and businesses and I think uh and I think so we are better positioned to take a long-term view approach this moment.

>> Okay. Well, okay. Let let's take that and then let's try and sum up if you like the ultimate power of the tools you have built for for people at home. You

know, how effective could it be? Could

could an AI agent do your job at some point? Uh you know, look, I think uh

point? Uh you know, look, I think uh where we are is right now you can interact with this AI, ask questions, go back and forth and have these

intelligent exchanges on many, many topics. I think the next step in the

topics. I think the next step in the next 12 months you will see uh the evolution being that they are able to do more complex tasks for you. So that's

where it gets really interesting. You

know I have to go shop something. I have

to buy a a birthday gift for my spouse and you know can I ask this uh chatbot to go do that right? So I think I think that that kind of what we call agentic

experiences is what we are all excited about.

So down the line that means there are moments it can help you make a decision right like you know it could be should I invest in this stock ask the question or my doctor is recommending a treatment

and how should I think about the pros and cons of that treatment so those are all real tangible use cases u you know so I think I think you know there is still work to be done to unlock

those capabilities but that's the journey which has been so exciting to see >> okay so still CEOs are safe in their in their in their Well, I think I think what a CEO does is maybe one of the

easier things to maybe for a AI to do one day.

>> But but the whole point of the value and productivity kind of offer to companies that are buying all your all your goods

and your services is to automate many human tasks. Is it not? I let let me put

human tasks. Is it not? I let let me put it this way, right? I think I think people today are juggling many things, right? and people are overloaded. We've

right? and people are overloaded. We've

always had back in the history, you know, it could be a dishwasher coming to your home. I remember uh growing up uh

your home. I remember uh growing up uh you know you know when we got our first refrigerator in the home that how much

it radically changed my mom's life, right? And and so you can view it as it

right? And and so you can view it as it automating some but you know it freed her up to do other things, right? So you

are going to have you know take let's take the example of a radiologist the number of scans people are getting is growing year on year and the number

of images per scan is also rising pretty significantly how do you help a radiologist cope up with this increased demand maybe a AI tool can help that way so I think that's

what you will see more or less >> I get it you want to focus on the win-wins but it's it's many people, many aspirational middle classes across the West are thinking, "Hang on a minute, it's affecting lawyers jobs. It's

affecting creative industries. It's

affecting accounting jobs. It's

affecting journalism, too." Um, it's affecting the media uh in general. So,

and they're surprised by it and you know, and they're wondering, do you know, do you know which jobs are going to be safer? Have you got an idea?

>> Two things. One is first of all look I I think with any you know I said many years ago AI is the most profound technology humanity is ever working on and it has potential for extraordinary

benefits and we will have to work through societal disruptions and you are and you are highlighting you know it'll end up creating new opportunities

>> as an example I think anybody just like YouTube has done anybody can will be able to create content you know you could be a high school student in a few

years down maybe envision a featurelength movie and make it right that's extraordinary. So it will create

that's extraordinary. So it will create new opportunities. It will evolve and

new opportunities. It will evolve and transition certain jobs.

>> Okay?

>> Right? And and people will need to adapt and then there will be areas where it will impact some jobs. So as a society, I think we need to be having those conversations and and part of it is how

do you develop this technology responsibly and give society time to adapt as we absorb this technology. I

think these are all very very important and fair questions. just just very practically parents don't know what to advise their kids anymore just you know to ride out this airwave g give us some tips >> you know based on what I see I I

wouldn't change anything of how we've always thought I think you know I think there's going to be a wide variety of disciplines which will end up mattering I would encourage the next generation to

embrace the technology learn to use it in the context of what you do and I think I think people who learn to adopt

can adapt to AI will do better. Uh it

doesn't matter whether you want to be a teacher, a doctor, all those professions will be around but the people who will do well in each of those professions uh are people who learn how to use these tools.

>> Okay. So all of the hopes, the hype, the valuations, the social benefit of this transformation you've just described is built on a central assumption that the technology functions that it works. Let

me propose one simple test. um of Gemini which is your booming chat GPT kind of competitor is it accurate always does it

does it tell the truth uh look we are working hard uh to from a from a scientific standpoint to ground it in

real world information right um and there are areas part of what we've done with Gemini is we've brought the power of Google search so it uses Google

search as a tool to try and answer uh to give answers more accurately.

But there are moments these AI models fundamentally have a technology by which they're predicting what's next and they are prone to errors.

>> Yeah. I and you know some of the examples there is an example of glue as a pizza ingredient sitting senator wrongly accused of assault.

>> I mean this is this is bad isn't it? You

know today in in I think we take pride in the amount of work we put in to give as accurate information as possible but the current state-of-the-art AI

technology is prone to some errors >> right >> this is why this is why people also use Google search and we have other products which are you know more grounded in providing accurate information right and

so but the same tools are helpful if you want to creatively write something >> okay >> right so so you have to learn to use these tools and for what they are good at.

>> Yeah.

>> And not blindly trust everything they say.

>> Okay. That don't blindly trust. But let

me suggest to you that you have a special responsibility because this whole model type of model transformer model the T and Chat PT was invented here under you and you know that it's a

probability and I just wonder if you accept the end result of all this fantastic investment is that information is less reliable.

I think if you if you only construct systems stand alone you know and you only rely on that that would be true which is why I think we have to make the

information ecosystem has to be much richer >> okay >> than just having uh AI technology being the sole uh uh uh uh you know product in

it. Sure. Truth matters. Yeah.

it. Sure. Truth matters. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Truth matters. Journalism matters.

Uh you know all all of the surrounding things we have today matters, right? So

PE, you know, if you're a student, you're talking to your teacher.

>> If as a consumer, you're going to a doctor, you want to trust your doctor.

Yeah. All of that.

>> You want to trust the little summaries that come up the top. Okay. Well, this

and the scale of the AI buildout you've just described so vividly is creating another trade-off not just for you, but but for humanity on energy. Um I think this is an opportunity to be frank Mr.

Pai with the world. Is there a new calculus now is the buildout of AI more important than climate >> over time I don't think you know this

doesn't need to be a tradeoff or or a zero sum game. I think one of the things I'm excited about because the energy needs through this transformation is so

immense.

We as well as others are are you know we are investing the uh to to develop new sources of energy.

We just finished signing our the largest corporate uh purchase for nuclear fusion energy with Commonwealth Fusion Systems.

We have many purchase agreements uh for energy from small modular nuclear reactors. We using geothermal energy in

reactors. We using geothermal energy in our data centers. So the amount of dollars, R&D dollars, capital investments going in these new sources

of energy, I think will actually accelerate. So you're right, AI is

accelerate. So you're right, AI is dramatically increasing demand for energy in a way that the current systems can't fully cope up. But that is driving extraordinary investments in solar, in

battery technology, in nuclear technology and other sources. So I think you know I am as a technologist I'm optimistic through this moment that we will have abundant sources of renewable

energy in the future.

>> I mean by the end of the decade um I think more energy will be used by data centers than the whole of India 50% more than all of the EV fleet.

You you sort of parked or dropped your 2030 sustainability net zero target. Is

that >> No, we we still have it. We we you know we publish progress reports against it.

You are right. some of the progress the rate at which we were hoping to make progress will be impacted.

>> Yeah.

>> Because we seeing an much faster than expected growth in the underlying buildout but we are meeting the moment by investing in all these new technologies.

>> Okay.

>> And and so I think that's how we are trying to make it work >> and so to bring it to the UK where there is an ambition for net zero still by the government but also to be an AI superpower.

Are those two things coherent?

uh they can be because uh I think technology is an enabler here right >> uh we are proud of our investments in UK uh we we've recently opened uh you know

state-of-the-art data center in Walton Cross and we've done a one-of-a-kind agreement with Shell to power it uh uh

with with uh I think our UK operations will be at 95% carbon-f free in 2026 so that's extraordinary progress uh at a time when we are investing more. So I I

think it's possible but I think for every government including the UK I think it's important to uh figure out how to scale up infrastructure including energy infrastructure. Uh I think you

energy infrastructure. Uh I think you don't want to constrain economy based on energy and I think that'll have consequences.

>> I mean you've been a big investor in the UK generally as a company obviously famously buying Deep Mine for half a billion maybe worth a few hundred times that now. Um, would you consider higher

that now. Um, would you consider higher levels of investment in the UK, perhaps training these state-of-the-art AI models in the UK if the conditions were

right?

I mean, we just recently, just a few weeks ago, announced a uh 5 billion uh investment in the UK and that that that is across our capital investments, R&D

and engineering. And as your you know

and engineering. And as your you know Google deep mind still you know we have a substantial number of employees in the UK and and we are developing

state-of-the-art uh research work there and our goal is to be able to uh both uh serve our models over time train our models all that you know so so we are

committed to investing in the UK in a pretty significant way. Another key fuel for the AI boom is obviously the content that it's trained on and that that the

tech companies including Google have relied on fair use um and have sort of scraped books, music, journalism and are sort of selling back some of that

expertise to the to the world. Um do you accept that companies like Google will have to end up paying in some way for that

>> throughout first of all to step back I think it is so important as we go through this uh that we both you know help drive creativity and

innovation but we have to do that in a framework which respects creators rights and and as well as allow for transformative use to deliver benefits

to society. I think we are committed to

to society. I think we are committed to uh copyright frameworks in all the countries we operate in today. When we

train, we give people uh an opportunity to opt out of the training and we honor copyright in terms of how our outputs are generated and we are you know in the

process of working with the industry to create newer frameworks as we as we move through it. uh and for example uh in

through it. uh and for example uh in YouTube we've always uh incorporated an approach to to to uh you know deliver value back to uh

content uh rights holders. We will apply those same principles through this AI moment and I think it's super important to do that and so we're committed to getting it right.

>> Yeah. In the US it's basically been settled in the courts in in the UK in Europe there's a debate about whether legislation is necessary. You have

famous pop stars like Sir Alultton John thinks thievery on the high scale. Um if

someone wants to use my song ask and have transparency in how it's used. Are

you willing to do that?

>> Uh look I mean today we allow uh anything we train you know people people can choose whether their content is opted into that training or not. So we

do give people that uh those rights. Oh,

I want to take you back to the beginning of this year to that toemic kind of tech bro photo of Zuckerberg, Bezos, Musk, and yourself in the seats of honor at the president's um inauguration. You

have access, you're already powerful.

You have access to what is now the world's most powerful technological tool. It's getting more and more

tool. It's getting more and more powerful and now not being maybe counterbalanced by political power, but some would say joined at the hip. Um,

can you see why that makes many people uncomfortable?

Look, I think if I were to speak about the US, I think it is an extraordinary moment in terms of this AI technology. I think you know

it has tremendous opportunities to deliver benefits to the economy. It

matters from a national security standpoint. As one of the leading

standpoint. As one of the leading technology companies which is pioneering and driving progress in AI, you know, we we are deeply committed to engaging

constructively uh in the US. President

Trump has been very clear in in the importance of this technology uh and has articulated a clear AI action plan with with multiple aspects to it to deliver

benefits to the country. So we are deeply engaged uh as as a as a company of our scale should and not only in the US but with other governments around the

world including in the UK. uh you know last time I was there I met with the prime minister and I I think this is an important moment and not just us uh the leading companies which are building

this technology I think it's important we are engaging with the government in a way that this technology is going to translate to deliver benefits uh for

society including thinking through uh concerns around potential misuse of the technology and so I think we are going to need uh deep industrywide frame

frameworks. As a company, we want to

frameworks. As a company, we want to engage with the governments, with nonprofits. I think you have to bring in

nonprofits. I think you have to bring in all stakeholders into this.

>> Okay. On a specific issue, what will will the impact be of the White House's crackdown on foreign worker visas on your company and the sector? How do you how do you feel personally as someone who arrived on an H-1B visa?

>> Uh uh I've I've definitely been on record. uh you know uh part of the deep

record. uh you know uh part of the deep reason if you go look at the many of the fundamental breakthroughs uh you know Google has had a few Nobel

prizes in the last couple of weeks you know uh if you many of them are immigrants uh if you look at the history of technology development the

contribution of immigrants uh to the sector has been uh nothing but but phenomenal right and but I do think I think I I think the government understands it. I think there's a

understands it. I think there's a framework by which we all can still bring uh talented individuals. I think

they're making changes to address some of the shortcomings in the current program and uh I think I think we'll be able to continue investing.

>> Now Google had a a reputation for for caution and concern on AI safety um and the risks to humanity, the existential risks that were talked about. Is is that gone now or parked or or downplayed? Is

it full speed ahead AGI and super intelligence?

>> Look, there is uh there is some tension between when a technology is developing fast, how fast do you develop it?

>> Yeah.

>> And how do you put in the work to make sure you're building mitigations against potential harmful effects?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, we we encapsulated this tension. We call this we want to be bold

tension. We call this we want to be bold and responsible at the same time. So we

are moving fast through this moment. I

think I think our consumers are demanding it.

>> You know people picking up a phone they ask questions now. They ask much more complex questions. Yeah.

complex questions. Yeah.

>> And they expect us to use AI to be able to better answer that.

>> Right. So we have to meet that uh meet that moment.

>> But for example we are open sourcing technology which will allow you to detect whether an image is generated by AI. Yeah.

AI. Yeah.

>> So we are uh yeah which we are investing in as well. So you will see us we have increased our investment in AI security >> over the past couple of years proportional to how much we are

investing in AI development.

>> Okay but like you know we can only take our cues it's a very complicated area.

We take our cues from the experts who who talk about this some of your colleagues in the industry. Um you know obviously the big Microsoft open a deal has closed. I I was struck looking at

has closed. I I was struck looking at the history of that that that the that the history of open AI that Elon Musk suggested he helped found Open AI

specifically because he feared Google owning Deep Mind and what he called an AGI dictatorship.

>> I think I look I think Elon is rightfully pointing out that I mean no one company should own a technology as powerful as AI.

I but I I think if you look at the current current state of the ecosystem I think there are many many companies I would argue there are many companies many frontier models you have open

source models coming in with China right so if anything I think you know so the you're right you never want if there was only one company which was building AI

technology and everyone else had to use it I would be concerned about that too but we are so far from that scenario right now >> okay well I guess if it all goes wrong your your quantum computer will help us

navigate to the multiverse or some other parallel universe I mean how's How's it going with this extraordinary and fairly difficult to understand technology?

>> Oh, I the progress is I think we have the state-of-the-art quantum computing efforts in the world. Uh the progress is so exciting. I would say quantum is

so exciting. I would say quantum is there where maybe AI was 5 years ago. So

I think in five years from now we'll be going through you know a very exciting phase in quantum and we are investing with a view towards that and but you

know as as you know nature universe all fundamentally is based on the principles of quantum mechanics and building quantum systems I think will help us

better simulate and understand nature and unlock many benefits uh for society >> and and my sort of final question is in the last time the BBC was here a few

years ago um you had already invented the core technology that would go on to become chat GPT and Gemini and at that time no one I say no no no one had really heard of it outside of outside of

Google and yet it's transformed the world quite clearly is there anything similar you've got buried away in the labs with white coats now that we should we should know about >> look I mean we are working on a range

all the way from uh you know our self-driving technologies making extraordinary prog progress and and it already showing safety benefits and you

know I think scaling up the technology will avoid a lot of uh human uh fatalities uh which I think and has a lot of societal benefits. I genuinely

think what we call in this umbrella is AI >> uh you know we didn't even talk about things like AlphaFold which won the Nobel Prize >> and which is helping. There are many

many biologists and uh chemists around the world using it to better discover new drugs.

>> Is is this right? Did hundreds of millions of years of PhD research in a few months.

>> That's right. That's exactly right. it

would take one PhD their entire PhD to do one protein and we have done around 300 million proteins uh in a matter of few months and we've made it openly available to everyone >> and that's done from London people may

may not appreciate that in the UK >> it's done from Google deep mine in London and and Deis Hassabis and John Jumper who led the work uh received the Nobel Prize in chemistry last year for

it but I think we in some ways we can take progress here for granted we all used to talk about the Turing test Yeah, >> we've kind of gone past it and no one talks about it. If I had told 5 years

ago to people that if you go to San Francisco, there'll be many driverless cars driving around without anybody in the driver's seat, people wouldn't have believed it. It just happened.

believed it. It just happened.

>> Hang on. Didn't they start honking at each other? Start start. Were they Were

each other? Start start. Were they Were they talking to each other? Were they

communicating?

>> I I I hope not. I I don't quite think so. But, you know,

so. But, you know, >> are they alive? But you know maybe you know look we are using AI to better understand what do how dolphins communicate etc and like you know so I do think we'll uh there'll be

serendipitous moments like that uh but it's exciting and what is important is as humans we adapt to these technologies the fact that you know I recently had my

dad in a Whimo car he is over 80 years old the wonder you know I was in the back and he was in the front seeing him experience it you know helped me

understand the the progress we all take for granted and and I think there are going to be many such wonderful things in the future.

>> Sundai, thank you very much for joining the BBC.

>> Thanks Vel. Real pleasure. I appreciate

it.

>> Thank you.