FULL INTERVIEW: Turkish FM Hakan Fidan on Syria, Gaza, NATO, Ukraine With Patrick Wintour | AC1G

from the Guardian. Um, and I've got very strict instructions to have a very brief introduction. Slightly short of time.

introduction. Slightly short of time.

And so, unless you're in the wrong room, you probably will know the gentleman opposite me is his excellently Hakan Fidan. He's the foreign minister of Taka

Fidan. He's the foreign minister of Taka and has had a career leading Turkish intelligence and has had a career in the military. No um impressive life story

military. No um impressive life story has been more brutally condensed than that. But I just wanted to start with a

that. But I just wanted to start with a very vivid description I found you gave of Turkeykey's role in the world. And it

was for the last 20some years a ring of fire has formed around Turkey. Blood,

tears destruction north south east everywhere. And Turkey has continued to

everywhere. And Turkey has continued to stand like a rose garden in the middle of it. So, we're going to have to

of it. So, we're going to have to venture out of the rose garden through the ring of fire into some of the uh hot spots that uh Turkey is incredibly influential over and we're going to have

to do it at speed. And I thought we might start with the rose of Damascus.

And it was here obviously a year ago that I saw a man who had um the hand of history being thrown upon it as we

learned of all those developments so fast inside Syria. And I was just wondering if you could just look back and think about what was your greatest fear about what was going to happen

inside Syria at that point because everything was moving much more quickly than anyone expected. And secondly,

whether some of your worst fears have been um you you've overcome those and that actually the country is on the right course.

Well, uh first of all, thank you very much. Uh this is very important question

much. Uh this is very important question and uh there is a lot to talk about Syria. I

think before me uh President Ahmed Ashara was here. I think he was giving the uh uh some account of what happened and uh he is a decision maker at the

moment. I think he is in a better

moment. I think he is in a better position to describe and answer certain things. However, from our perspective,

things. However, from our perspective, you know, Syria has been a very important uh country for us. uh it's our

neighbor and we have uh 900 plus kilometers uh border with Syria and whatever happens in Syria and Iraq immediately

finds its effect in Turkey. So uh when the civil war started in Syria uh it had huge effect in Turkey in terms of uh

security, in terms of refugee crisis, uh economy, border problems and everything else. But more importantly,

else. But more importantly, Turkey is a big country. We can carry certain burdens. But the human tragedy

certain burdens. But the human tragedy and drama that was taking place in Syria was unbearable for us. That's why

President Erdogan instructed open door policy uh to allow the people who were just you know uh running away from uh

the cruel Assad regime. Millions of

people unfortunately had to leave their homes and houses and uh plus

Assad was assisted by Russians, Iranians big time and uh so in 2016 17 those

years were very difficult ones and the western community they came to a position where they stopped assisting Syrian opposition and Turkey and

Qatar we were left alone >> in support of the uh Syrian opposition and because the Americans and the west they were advised by some circles to

help PKK instead of the Syrian opposition.

Anyhow, that's another story to tell.

But can I just since we are on the PKK, can I ask you what is your bottom line about how um the SDF forces should integrate into the main Syrian army

because there was an agreement in March but it seems to have uh fallen by the wayside. I mean, is it sufficient for

wayside. I mean, is it sufficient for there to be units of the SDF to join um the Syrian armed forces or do you want a uh individuals to join and to join as

individuals?

>> Well, there are there are two parameters. One is what the Syrian

parameters. One is what the Syrian government is requesting from this process, what they are actually looking at as an

important security subjects.

And the second thing is what Turkey sees as a proper process

in terms of addressing its own security and threat assessment. Right now

we've been very consistent and insisting on describing what we want from SDF.

Similarly for the last one year the Syrian government in Damascus they are telling the SDF what they want. So for

us for instance couple things are very much important.

SDF and Syrian government can have their own agreement because Syri is a sovereign government. they can

have their own government but we know that SDF being a part of PKK they have certain elements inside SDF who are

actually solely positioned to fight against Turkey so just to start we want non Syrian

elements from SDF the elements from Iraq Iran and Turkey should immediately leave

should immediately leave. So that is that would be a good start. The second

thing is all the capacity and the units which have been positioned against Turkeykey's interest and security should

be abolished.

So this is basically what we want. But

they have bigger and more technical discussions with the Damascus because it is not an easy process to complete an

integration of 50 60,000 strong armored units into a newly born army. I

think this process uh should be conducted in good faith. Uh they should look for the common perspective and

common future.

If SDF is only looking at a procedural a symbolic process that would give the image to the entire rest of the

world that they are actually engaging with integration process in reality they are not taking any significant steps they would that would be misleading. So

that's why we need a genuine engagement from both sides.

>> And very briefly, do you think um the PKK leader with which whom you're having

discussions Abdullah Okalan can be a um a force for uh an agreement or do you think that he is actually proaricating?

Do you think that he can play a role in trying to bring uh an agreement together between Turkey?

>> I think he can play a role. He can play a role. Um you know when I was chief of

a role. Um you know when I was chief of intelligence uh between 2009 and uh 13,

you know, I was I I did engage uh with with PKK leadership in uh having talks and trying to reach a certain point. We

came very close to reaching an understanding. Actually we reach an

understanding. Actually we reach an understanding but later on it was abandoned by PKK because of Syria. At

that time Abdullah Jalam was not very much effective in stopping PKK from G uh from from uh turning away from the

agreed uh agreement.

We are not sure if we look at the past past can repeat itself again because of exactly Syria. So that's why Syria is

exactly Syria. So that's why Syria is very uh critical. I believe that he can play a role. I don't know if he wants to play or he can have leverage.

>> Right. Last question on Syria, which is just the issue of Israel. Are you

hopeful that Donald Trump is going to tell Benjamin Netanyahu to take all his troops out or do you think that the Americans will accept this idea of a buffer zone?

>> I think at some point President Trump should have a really a very substantial u conversation with uh

Netanyahu because uh otherwise uh you know the Gaza peace plan was pioneered and uh owned by the Trump administration. So we helped them a lot

administration. So we helped them a lot but uh if they don't intervene I'm afraid that there is a risk of the plan

that can fail because the amount of daily violations of the ceasefire by the Israelis unescribable at the moment and all the indicators are

showing that there is a huge risk of uh stopping the uh the process at the moment. That's why we need to get the

moment. That's why we need to get the President Trump I think he's going to have a good discussion with >> he's due to have a discussion before the end of the year. You said earlier at the

session that Turkey was ready and willing to help um in terms of the international stabilization force. Um is

it true be frank that Israel's vetoing your your >> Mr. Netanyahu doesn't hide it? you know

he >> you know couple times stated openly uh that he doesn't want to see the >> Turkish troops there but you know uh the

Egypt and Israel uh by the uh provision of the UNC resolution should be uh consulted before >> and do you think there are other

countries such as Indonesia that won't join the force unless Turkey is involved? Well, they want us to be part

involved? Well, they want us to be part of the ISF because they know that we can uh play a leading role and we can really uh make their life easier in terms of

getting more legitimacy and support from their public and Indonesia, Azar, Beijan and some other Muslim and Arab countries

that we are working closely and uh this is what they want to see uh for their troop to be sent.

when you said earlier that you thought the um task of the ISF needed to focus on the issue of um the divide between

Israel uh and basically along the yellow line. What do you mean? What do you

line. What do you mean? What do you think the first thing the ISF should do?

Uh it feels like you're saying that disarmament is not the first priority.

>> Well, um as I was telling, you know, we have to be very much realistic. I mean

what we need first first and foremost is the stop war between Palestinians and the Israelis

and that's why we need ISF to separate Israelis and Palestinians on the borderline not to let them each other's

attack. So this is what we see as the uh

attack. So this is what we see as the uh primary way to stop the war or not to allow the war start again.

But we shouldn't expect from ISF a work that has not been completed by the Israeli security forces.

Uh there are other provisions in the uh peace plan for the security and safety and the

policing of Gaza and administration of Gaza. So once we can secure the border

Gaza. So once we can secure the border line between two forces and two sides and then we can address the other issues

inside Gaza. You know Israel shouldn't

inside Gaza. You know Israel shouldn't threaten Gaza and Gaza in no way shouldn't threaten Israel. We need to get the police force

on track. We need to get Palestinian

on track. We need to get Palestinian administration on track. We need to get Hamas and over the administration, the Palestinian committee and then most

importantly uh we need to get the peace board of peace to work. You you you're very close or understand what the leadership of Hamas want.

There seem to be two issues. is whether

they should disarm to a Palestinian body or whether they can disarm to a foreign force and secondly um whether you can uh

get full disarmament straight away or whether there has to be political conditions beforehand.

Can you just explain where you feel Hamas are psychologically, mentally about this issue of disarmment? Well, as

I said, you know, uh that cannot be the first thing to do

in the process. I mean the disarming.

We need to put things in proper order.

We have to be realistic. That's what I am saying. I am not avoiding any

am saying. I am not avoiding any problem. I am not hiding anything away.

problem. I am not hiding anything away.

But what I am telling is if we want to really succeed in, we have to be realistic. We need to get F to deploy on

realistic. We need to get F to deploy on border side. We need to get Palestinian

border side. We need to get Palestinian forces, police forces. Then gradually

first we should take over the administration. We should take over the

administration. We should take over the policing from Hamas.

Then we need to let the humanitarian assistance freely go into Gaza. We

should let the normal life give hope to people. then we can start

people. then we can start addressing the commissioning issue.

>> That sounds to me like you would leave it quite far to the back of the queue and that is simply something Israel is not going to tolerate, is it? I mean, is that not going to be a real problem in the very early

>> It's understandable. That's why we will have ISF in place. Uh different than the previous scenarios, we will have ISF. We

will have non Hamas police force in place. and most importantly the

place. and most importantly the regional countries and the the countries who have put these signatures and uh

peace declaration in Shahal, Turkey, Qatar, Egypt and the other countries members of Arab League and uh organization of Islamic countries

they are going to be enforcing one way or another if Israel is following the agreement till the letter. You know,

Hamas and any other Palestinian function can deviate itself from the implementation of the peace plan as long

as the all the parties are observing it.

They shouldn't be because we would be the first party who would be coming against this.

just can ask you about the this issue of momentum. The Norwegian prime minister

momentum. The Norwegian prime minister was here earlier and he said that unless there is announcements about the border of peace about the technocratic body um maybe about the ISF as well before

Christmas there is going to be a real sense of loss of momentum and that the violence inside Gaza could become worse.

Can you give any kind of reassurance that there are announcements imminent? I

saw you did an interview maybe two, three weeks ago in which you said the technocratic body is ready. All the

names are are out there in terms of it's been agreed. Why not start showing there

been agreed. Why not start showing there is some momentum? We don't even know who is going to be whether Tony Blair is going to be on the board of peace or who's going to be on the board of peace.

>> Well, I think one of the uh practical problems about this subject is as everybody knows that the people

on the US side who are in charge of mediation of Gaza fal they are also in charge of mediating between Ukraine and Russia

>> you mean they've got other things on their plate other things on their mind >> no this would not be better to have a larger state department >> this is up to them but right now you

know uh I've been um you know communicating and discussing with Steve Vitkov and other friends and Marco Rubio uh they are very very aware of the uh

gravity of the problem at the moment because if they don't intervene timely there is a risk of what you are saying actually they also understand this risk

so uh they know that they need to intervene timely to make sure that they uh we can go into second phase otherwise we can lose the momentum because Hamas

has almost delivered what they've been asked you know in terms of releasing the hostages There's one dead hostage.

>> Yeah. They're still looking for >> Yes.

>> Um you you cast in the role of guarantor of this peace and yet there have been 360

Palestinians killed since the ceasefire that that there is not enough aid going in or not at the right amounts or into the right places. Do you not worry that

at some point you end up cast in the role of guarantor of a continuing lower grade genocide but it's still a

genocide? Well uh first of all let me

genocide? Well uh first of all let me make a technical correction in none of the papers we've been described or appointed as the guaranters. you know we

are the signatories to the statement together with other three countries US uh Qatar and uh Egypt having said that

we are we don't mind being a guaranter we don't mind shouldering the responsibilities of the guarantor uh country so you're right in pointing out

that the daily violation is giving the image that uh the peace process

ceasefire can stop anytime because nobody seems to be stopping Israel.

Well, this is exactly the problem that we've been having right from the beginning of the war. You know, in the absence of any credible power in the field or any other mechanism or

structure, nobody has use uh power leverage against uh Israel at the moment. only United States

moment. only United States were able to stop Israel and only certain amount of countries coming together to convince the American

administrations. This is a you know

administrations. This is a you know chain reaction here. We talk to Americans. Americans talk the Israelis

Americans. Americans talk the Israelis because they understand the gravity of the problem. Because if you leave things

the problem. Because if you leave things Israeli and Netanyahu alone, they have one only one thing in their mind to get Gaza

free of all the Palestinian people. Uh

they have two methodologies.

either they will turn entire Gaza into an unlivable place so they can ship off the rest of the uh

Palestinian people elsewhere so they can uh dislocate all of them or just as they were doing they will continue to kill the entire Palestinian

population.

>> Sure. There is a revived campaign to secure the release of Marwan Bouti and many people say that if he was released

it would be quite transformatory for Palestinian politics. Um his son tweeted

Palestinian politics. Um his son tweeted yesterday, I think yesterday morning, uh that he'd been told by a released

prisoner that his uh father had been physically crushed. They broke his teeth

physically crushed. They broke his teeth and his ribs, cut off part of his ear, and broke his fingers in stages for amusement. And he then said, "What do I

amusement. And he then said, "What do I do? Where do we turn? Lord have mercy."

do? Where do we turn? Lord have mercy."

Are you worried that there could be what's been described as a ni solution to Maran Muti, that he would be killed in jail? And what what are we to do

in jail? And what what are we to do about this? Well, unfortunately, not

about this? Well, unfortunately, not only him, but also countless of thousands of Palestinian prisoners, male and female, you know, they've been

subject to torture of Israel, unfortunately, for the last couple of years. And this has been a systematic

years. And this has been a systematic one. Um,

one. Um, well, as international community, we need to do something about this too.

Not only We have to work to save the uh the people in Gaza but also we have to address this very problem that you are describing. This is an humanitarian

describing. This is an humanitarian tragedy. Uh unfortunately

tragedy. Uh unfortunately nobody is paying much attention that needed. Uh we have to do in everything

needed. Uh we have to do in everything in our power because the torture has become systemic.

uh because for Israelis this is an act of revenge torturing the uh Palestinian prisoners in prison.

Some decent Israeli people they are disclosing all these things their conscience is not okay with what's going on.

So only this way we know that this is taking place in a very systematic way.

You don't really have any practical solution to this though. I mean because it is uh Baruchi if he is killed it would be I think very devastating to Palestinian politics.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. But as I said this is the way that Israelis are doing killing business and torturing business and they know that the international

community is helpless in stopping them using force. But there are other things that

force. But there are other things that international community can do easily and that's what we've been trying to do for the last two years you know in all

the capitals when you see the people the youth everybody is protesting against the Israeli genocide and uh

the countries their numbers are increasing in recognition of the Palestinian statethood >> yes >> and uh we see that the uh the

Palestinian cows is gaining ground but at the same time the degree of brutality is also increasing. So I think Mr.

Netanyahu is really harming in a very bad way the future of Israel and Israeli uh state. Uh so

uh state. Uh so okay the clock is being very brutal to me and I just wanted to ask you two two last things. One was about Ukraine. You

last things. One was about Ukraine. You

said you were very it was I think your words were scary what was been happening in terms of uh attacks on shipping um close to Turkey and that you were going

to have conversations with the Ukrainians about this. They've denied

responsibility for some of these attacks. Are you satisfied now that the

attacks. Are you satisfied now that the Ukrainians are not going to be attacking shipping close to Turkey and that there's going to be >> Well, we have uh >> turning down.

>> No, we have discussed about uh this subject with our Ukrainian friends and not only the Ukrainians, we also communicated the same concerns with the Russian side as well. Uh we just uh

talked to their ambassador and I talked to my counterparts on both capitals about the subject because this is very sensitive for us. We don't want to see

the uh trade routes are being targeted and the uh the trade ships being uh hit.

Uh this is exactly what we were concerned right from the beginning because this is an escalation of war by geography and by a different methodology.

last question which is in this national security strategy which the Americans published slightly strangely on Thursday night um and this is relevant to you

because I think Turkey hosts the NATO summit next year uh there's a passage which says over the long term it is more than plausible that within a few decades

at the latest certain NATO members will become majority non-European as such it's an open question whe view their place in the world or their

alliance with the United States in the same way as those who signed the NATO charter. I don't know what he means or

charter. I don't know what he means or the American uh secretary means by majority non-European, but it might be code for Muslim.

What's your reaction to reading words like that? the idea that somebody's

like that? the idea that somebody's majority non-European doesn't have loyalty to >> well I don't know what you have understood but my understanding is that

because I might be uh biased because of the discussions on on on NATO circles because within NATO ministerial committee there is a discussion about EU

and non-EU NATO members when we say noneu NATO members it comprises United States US UK Norway way and >> well the phrase is used as European not

EU so I think we know what it means surely >> yeah well um so uh this is this must be introduction and new discussion into NATO circles because we've been having

this discussion EU and non-EU NATO members because EU is about the you know EU is always coming up with new ideas to form its own security architecture

whereas NATO says we have NATO here almost all EU members data members. You

don't need to have a separate security architecture.

>> Look, thank you so much. I've I've

overshot by a little way. And um you can you can return to the Rose Garden.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Thank you. Thank you. I wish we had more time.

>> Me too.

>> Thank you very much, Minister Fedan.

Thank you for your valuable insights and for sharing with us your perspectives on what needs to be done to solve one of the world's most intractable crises

which has not only chipped away at the human rights of Palestinians but our own moral credibility. the T.

moral credibility. the T.