Going One on One With Palantir CEO Alex Karp | The Big Interview | WIRED

We have to build systems like Palanteer and we have to explain to people with workingclass skills, people with normal jobs, that their labor is going to become more important and more valuable over time [music] with products like ours. If you run around saying that, you

ours. If you run around saying that, you know, oh, the economy is going to completely shift to value creation only owned by 10,000 [music] people, people on the left and the right are going to go nuts.

>> I'm, Steven, Levy,, editor, at, large, at Wired. I sat down with Alex Karp, CEO of

Wired. I sat down with Alex Karp, CEO of Palunteer, a controversial company that orchestrates data [music] and solves problems for government and business. We

discussed Palunteer's work with ICE in Israel and why he feels the company has no competitors. Welcome to the big

no competitors. Welcome to the big interview.

[music] >> Well,, first, of, all,, let, me, say, welcome to the big interview. Okay, Dr. Alex Gor, >> you've, said, that, Palunteer, is, at, odds with Silicon Valley from the very

beginning. You have kind of a harsh

beginning. You have kind of a harsh critique of Silicon Valley. You want

Palunteer to be different. What do you think the biggest problem Silicon Valley was?

>> Well,, we, you, we, have, we, have, a, long, and mandering relationship with Silicon Valley. In the beginning, we were at

Valley. In the beginning, we were at odds because we were pro-American, pro- West, and pro making the government functional. And that was very

functional. And that was very controversial in Silicon Valley because it equated to not making any money and being a loser. We won that battle and I think Silicon Valley actually has become very, at least, officially, and, even, beyond

closed doors patriotic. And Silicon

Valley uh has always been pro meritocracy and we're very aligned with that. where we're currently uh at like a

that. where we're currently uh at like a misalignment alignment. Apex again is we

misalignment alignment. Apex again is we believe in using large language models in a way that creates actual empirical value but also is very strong for workers, technical people. Uh whether

you're plumber, carpenter, electrician or you are a high school grad working in a plant where you'd normally be doing engineering things or couldn't do them.

We see our products as being able to enhance your market value. And so we're kind of pro- labor and promilitary. So

we're much closer to Silicon Valley on the patriotism thing. But for decades uh, we fought Silicon Valley about, you know, government is something we should support. We walked towards the

support. We walked towards the government when everyone walked away.

That's how we ended up powering, uh Maven, which is the, you know, US government's military.

>> We, took, advantage, when, the, Google workforce said, "We don't want Google to work on Maven." And they >> then, we, built, it., Yeah., But

>> explain, what, project, Maven, is., Well,, so to find an adversary on a battlefield from any sensor including space is a massive integration and analytics project. So how do you find basically a

project. So how do you find basically a needle on a haststack and where that needle uh is also complex because it may look like your adversary but maybe that person's actually working for you. Maybe

they're maybe they're in your service maybe their phone has been compromised.

Finding that needle in a haststack.

refined uh person that is your adversary you want to take out across a massive landscape where you have a human controlled in the loop like targeting workbench. So you say you know this

workbench. So you say you know this target's been approved why under what conditions uh the data protections that are necessary the civil liberty protections interestingly that are necessary and doing that at scale on the

on the battlefield was not possible and now it's been used in every operational context uh across the world and and you know it's there are many things that have led to America's ability to reestablish its deterrence I would say

after the disaster in Afghanistan but one of them was actually one of many corrosism of our soldiers may I think one of the other things is just the superior eriority of the targeting capabilities the US government has and

you know there are other people other companies but we are the backbone of that. A lot of your government

that. A lot of your government connections, they go back early. You

know, you've worked for ICE. You had

long-term contract with them, right?

>> Well,, that's, actually, later., I, mean,, our first contracts were at uh US intelligence, so CIA, special operations, and um and FBI, and our biggest contracts ended up being in the

DoD. And then later we started working

DoD. And then later we started working at Homeland Security under Democrats.

Now, it's very controversial because it's Trump in my view. Well, it's

controversial because he's doing things that we haven't seen done before. I want

to ask you, are you do you keep an eye on that? Do are you making sure that

on that? Do are you making sure that your products are being used according to your code which supports democracy and you know says people can't be discriminated against. I'm wondering if

discriminated against. I'm wondering if there's a line for you where you would say to a president, no >> we, we, were, the, f, I, mean, this, is, like there's all these things that no one believes are true. I was the first and I

may be one of the few CEOs to say we would not build a Muslim database. Now

everyone thinks I'm like and I am, you know, I've defended Israel. I I think like like people who wake up in the morning thinking about how Jews are running the world. Actually, you believe whatever you want to believe. I not so

concerned about people who are skeptical about Jews or even their anti-Semitic but like people who wake up in the morning and the evening and night thinking about this. I think like you know, Jewish derangementism is a is a little bit of a carcinogen. So I think

I'm the last person in the world people kind of expect in the kind of rude and crude way people think of this to refuse revenue to build uh you know a Muslim database and I would say more like at a

high level because I can't go into details people internally no I pulled things from places where I thought there was anything like that going on in the US discrimination yes I'm against that

by the way even if I was in favor of it our products make that nearly as impossible as anyone's ever seen in a product because the way you do these things, the way you discriminate against

people politically or based on their gender or race is you do not have what are called ales. So you can't see where the data is flowing. What you can immediately see not as a technical person but as you your cameraman

everyone watching this can go look and see how is the data merged how what kind of pipelines did you create? What were

the assumptions that went into it? Where

did the data flow? But where you and I disagree maybe is I spent half my life in Europe. I am an immigration skeptic

in Europe. I am an immigration skeptic like and I personally think that US people meaning uh citizens have to decide by their vote what our

immigration policy is going to be. And

I'll tell you one of the reasons I'm very skeptical of my own party is that open border was not only a disaster but it was tolerating. And that is massively corrosive and it's corrosive to

democracy and it's corrosive to people.

And leaving all the theory aside, like I was I grew up in a progressive family.

Classic progressives my age and older were massive immigration skeptics. Open

borders is not a progressive policy. It

is not a progressive policy. It never

was. And and and then the fruits of this, you know, I spent most of my life adult life in Germany. Look at what a version of open borders a little different has done to Germany on any

vector. Rights of women, rights of gay

vector. Rights of women, rights of gay people, future. So again, I just want to

people, future. So again, I just want to make it clear. I am against discrimination. I'm not saying you're

discrimination. I'm not saying you're saying this, but people tend to merge being against discrimination with being to be against discrimination. I have to accept that there's nothing that can be done about illegal immigration in the

West. And I just I disagree with that.

West. And I just I disagree with that.

But more importantly than me disagreeing with it, the American people disagree with it. And I quite frankly are not

with it. And I quite frankly are not asking, this., I, think, one, of the, reasons

asking, this., I, think, one, of the, reasons why the Democratic Party continues to fail and continues to fail and continues to fail is their talent managed. which

like in businesses like you have this problem where the people doing the work sometimes need to be told no you're wrong and we're not doing that and the Democratic party and people like it the Green Party in Germany I don't view

these policies as progressive >> well, I, guess, what, I'm, saying, is, are, you monitoring sort of what's happening with this government and democracy in this

country and saying maybe at some point I have to look at >> I, would, say, the, more, important, question is have I ever worked against our commercial interest because it violated our norms? Yes. Have I done this in

our norms? Yes. Have I done this in governments? Yes. Have I refused? We get

governments? Yes. Have I refused? We get

no credit for this, but we almost went out of business because I we were not working in Russia, China, or anywhere else. So, yes. Have we refused to ser

else. So, yes. Have we refused to ser give our product to foreign governments because we didn't agree with them? Yes.

Do I agree with your implicit assertion that what's going on in immigration as you formulate it has never been done before? No. I think actually that's

before? No. I think actually that's completely crazy. You know, when you're

completely crazy. You know, when you're in Japan, if you miss your visa, do you know what happens to you? Um, I didn't stay overstay my visa.

>> Great., I'll, tell, you, what, happens., You

politely are put on a plane. Is Japan

not a democracy? Do you know what happens in in like Singapore?

>> Well,, I, I, I, think >> is, like, So,, you're, But, I, just, know, I think this is a very valuable line of questioning. You're asking does our

questioning. You're asking does our product allow for civil rights abuses and will I intervene?

>> Yeah.

>> Our, product, is, the, hardest, in, the, world to violate. Will I intervene? Yes. Do I

to violate. Will I intervene? Yes. Do I

agree with some of the assertions you just made? No. The legitimate criticism

just made? No. The legitimate criticism could be, hey, here's these are two very rational people. You know, you're

rational people. You know, you're bringing up exactly the core and right question and I'm telling you that I have done this. I will do it and I'm continue

done this. I will do it and I'm continue to do it. And by the way, not that people our age like the term constructive engagement. I am as

constructive engagement. I am as obnoxious and private as I am with you but people I agree with. So like when they're asking me to do stupid I can assure you I'm telling you >> wait,, is, this, stupid >> No., No., I'm, not, saying, you're, asking, me

>> No., No., I'm, not, saying, you're, asking, me to do it, but I can assure you one of the things you can be assertain of 100% is when somebody calls me and asks me to do some completely illogical, mostly it's illogical before it's immoral.

That's the thing people understand. It's

illogical. It will not get you the result you think. I am telling you them this, is, illogical, and, we're, not, going to do it. By the way, there's variants of

do it. By the way, there's variants of this commercial. I have commercial

this commercial. I have commercial clients, this is not even moral, who are like, hey, could you give me 50 engineers to do some crazy thing that will not help their business? And you

know what I'm telling them? No, one of the things that happens when people work with me is they see I'm meeting clients and they'll ask me to do something that makes no sense. And I'll tell them I can't go to my engineers and tell them

to do something makes no sense. And this

is I think a lot of these questions come down to that now where we have to expand the prism of dialogue is I think in in complete honesty there is a place where

you and I forget you and I you step in you're just honestly talking to you is just like talking to my family. It's

like where where me and my family disagree. And I'll tell you where those

disagree. And I'll tell you where those places are. They're on the border

places are. They're on the border they're in Israel, and they're in Ukraine. And what's what's super

Ukraine. And what's what's super surprising is I get yelled at all day about those three issues. And by the way, the issue I don't get yelled at about the elite is about Ukraine. The

issue I get obviously the Israel thing is like, you know, only thing anyone ever wants to talk about. You would you would not it's like somehow people have forgotten it's a country with a GDP smaller than Switzerland. But you know and then my progressive friends, it's

all ice all day.

>> Some, people, might, actually, not, even, know what Palanteer does in the shortest possible way. Can you explain to people

possible way. Can you explain to people who just know it as sort of something they see on a page and don't like and saying, "Hey, this is what it really is."

is." >> Or, love., We, have, a, lot, of, people, who love us and some people who don't. But

yeah, it we we tend to elicit strong reactions on both sides. So that's

definitely fair. If you're internal or external intelligence, you're using us to find terrorists and find organized criminals while maintaining security and maintaining the data protection of your

country. So like the highest data

country. So like the highest data protection environments in the world Western Europe, would love to get rid of us. They try every day to get rid of us.

us. They try every day to get rid of us.

But building a a a data protection environment that actually allows you to do anti-organized criminality environment with that also does data protection at any level of granularity

at any level of complexity is very very hard. Ask the German government but they

hard. Ask the German government but they would love to find another alternative and honestly I'd have no problem with them finding but it's very hard. So

that's one thing we do. Then you have the battlefield the project maven and also organizing the battlefield what the special forces use it for. How do you know where your troops are? How do you bring them home with all the data that you'd have from any source environment?

How do you manage assets while doing that? Meaning assets from the other side

that? Meaning assets from the other side assets meaning spies basically. How do

you get the human how do you how do you prepare your egress? How do you how do you get in and out of the battlefield uh safely as safely as possible? So

avoiding mines, avoiding enemies, those things change rapidly on the battlefield. That's a software problem

battlefield. That's a software problem that's powered in in great part by us across America and and and with our allies. How do you supply targeting

allies. How do you supply targeting capabilities to allies uh Ukraine Israel, so that they get the product?

But obviously, we don't have access to the full data they use because we're not part of those countries. Um that's

that's a Palanteer thing. On the

commercial side, it's um you know, how do you to make I mean the current version would be if you want AI to work you're going to have to have precursor things. You can think of as like the

things. You can think of as like the precursors to making anything. What are

those things going to be? You're going

to need high fidelity data. to have high fidelity data. You're going to need to

fidelity data. You're going to need to be able to integrate your data with the model you understand. You're gonna have to build something called pipelining meaning you can you can serialize and deserialize a technical way of taking apart and putting together the assumptions with the data. You're going

to have to be able to maintain your security model and maintain the logic and actions of your business. And you're

going to have to be ab able to abstract that. So, ontology. So shorthand, if

that. So, ontology. So shorthand, if you're doing anything that involves operational intelligence, whether it's analytics or AI >> you're, going, to, have, to, find, something

like ontology or Foundry and, you know and and FDEEs to install it. That's

Palinger.

>> It's, interesting, because, you, going, back a little, you implied that, you know the rest of Silicon Valley hasn't figured out how to do that. That you're

unique in >> Well, it's Yeah. What I'm really saying is we

it's Yeah. What I'm really saying is we know how to do it. If you find someone else who can do it and you don't want to work with us, buy it from them.

>> I, mean,, do, is, there, anyone, you, consider a competitor?

>> Our, competition, is, actually, political.

The woke left and the woke right wake up every day figuring out how they can hurt Palunteer. And if they get into power

Palunteer. And if they get into power they'll hurt Palunteer. How could you build a society with unfettered migration in Europe and not have Palunteer? I don't know how you're going

Palunteer? I don't know how you're going to do that, but they think they can do that. If they win, if the communists in

that. If they win, if the communists in France win, they will pull us out. If

the if like the Madani win of the de Democratic party takes over, I viewed that as my party, but if that's the party, I'm not in it. Or if the right woke wing, which is like everything is a

conspiracy, any use of technology is actually going to only be used to evviscerate and attack us, is like our data protection pro part of Palunteer is built into the software. It is literally

the hardest software to abuse in the world, but they don't seem to want that.

If you like don't want meritocracy either left or right, you don't like the consequence of it, you hate Palunteer.

And that is actually our competition.

And uh and by the way, not that they believe it, the thing that is protecting those people, the people that hate us the most is actually our product because it is the hardest product to misuse to

to take away the rights of human beings that's ever been built. And don't

believe me. Just go look at it. Spend 10

minutes looking at it. Find a technical person and look at our architecture or look at it yourself. And that's actually our competition. And you know, in a

our competition. And you know, in a weird way, we embrace the competition because they say these crazy things about us. And then the smart people go

about us. And then the smart people go look at it.

>> My, head's, spinning, a, little., How, about now we get in there?

>> I, would, say, some, of, this, is, downstream from if you explain to the world that labor is going to be valueless. People

are going to elect the most ridiculous people ever. We have to build systems

people ever. We have to build systems like Palanteer and we have to explain to people but also let them see the results the fruit of our labor that their labor meaning >> people, with, working-class, skills, people

with normal jobs that their labor is going to become more important and more valuable over time with products like ours which happens to be true. If you

run around saying that, you know, all the economy is going to completely shift to uh value creation only owned by 10,000 people, people on the left and the right are going to go nuts and they're going to vote for people who are

like, basically, yeah, nothing I've said has ever worked in history. It has never worked in history. You cannot find a time in history where any of that stuff has ever worked ever. they still will

gravitate to it because they're afraid of what could work which is like an AIdriven AGI environment where no one has a job and the only people will make money are like people sitting out here

and so that's part of the problem now also honestly I mean you know I think universities and elite institutions have played a really corrosive role here

people are teaching pagan religion views again pagan religion as it's a new religion with sacrifices who's the sacrifice me I'm the sacrifice And that

again, it's also like it's a form of thought that has never worked.

>> You, don't, seem, constrained, to, me., You're

you're doing great.

>> I, mean,, I'm, not, complaining., It's, like, I I we're not Palunteer. We're not victims at Palunteer. We're not playing the

at Palunteer. We're not playing the victimhood thing. We don't I don't think

victimhood thing. We don't I don't think I'm a victim. I don't actually believe we should these things should be framed as victims. And yes, we're doing very well. And you know, we might even do

well. And you know, we might even do better.

>> You'd, have, this, bonkers, earnings, call, in February. Huge huge growth. And yeah

February. Huge huge growth. And yeah

>> well, it's, like, people, who, are, not financial which is most people and honestly I wouldn't be paying attention to this if I wasn't running pounder those numbers are a little bit like flying saucer took off numbers.

>> Mhm.

>> So, and, you, know, people, who, are, financial many of whom doubted us are like wait a minute the plate dropped because what it basically it's what what non-financial people might not appreciate is we're not

just growing we're growing with high margins with and that's at our scale basically in my view never been done before. not in a similarly situated

before. not in a similarly situated business.

>> You, said, it, was, an, anomalous, like, you know some sort of historic moment that that the company is is anomalous.

>> You, know, in, a, weird, way, we, undervalue these or I undervalue the whole numer numeric side of our business because it's downstream of value creation. So if

you have if you have a if you if you are doing anything like what we're doing so call it 68% growth in the US and again we're doing it you know our way. We

sales force is anemic. We're not running around really trying to sell our wares.

We have a conference here. People fight

to get in, which is pretty cool. We have

the best clients in the world especially in America. Clearly, we've

tapped, into, something., I'll, tell you what we've tapped into. There's

essentially a simple thing. LM and and software empowered LLMs create power per the expectation of pray optimality between partner and and and vendor. you

are going to get paid in the future a percentage of the value you create and the value you create is going to be you know it's at some point objectively measured and it's going to flow into your financials and vice versa.

>> So, you, have, this, unique, culture, and, you even have called it a cult. Uh it's been called a cult. I wonder how much you cultivate that outsider mentality. It

reminds me you're both from Philadelphia of Jason Kelsey after the first Super Bowl saying nobody likes us. They don't

care.

>> The, thing, people, don't, understand, is there's a massive feature side to being an outsider or even popular. People

forget people always think of the bug sides of being unpopular. Like, you

know, you're unpopular. It's not

pleasant., You're, not, going to, like, it., I

don't like it actually. But there are massive feature sides. Like you get the best people in the world. Like someone

says something ridiculously stupid about Palunteer. Five people look at it and

Palunteer. Five people look at it and they the fifth person who's exactly the kind of person you want inside your business or will be the person buying your product. someday or investing in

your product. someday or investing in you says, "Hey, it can't be as simple as that. It's a conspiracy. It can't be as

that. It's a conspiracy. It can't be as simple as they want to evviscerate my rights because those rights would be the same rights that like an agent would need protected by the agency or something." Then those people

something." Then those people investigate and investigate and investigate and they're like, "Wow, this is a real interesting company." And

they're thinking of the 10th derivative of this problem, not the simplistic that, somebody, online, saying, has no idea how our products work. And then

you get the best people like a a really unexpected uh consequence of is there's no country in the world where our brand is as bad as France. We have the best French employees in the world

especially in US commercial. And why do they join? Because every time the

they join? Because every time the Communist Party says we are doing these crazy things and they they clearly know nothing about what they're talking about, the smartest person in France says, "Wait a minute. If it was that simple, any idiot would have done it."

By the time they're done doing the diagnostic, they're like, "Hey, there's only one company in the world I want to work at." And that's how we have the

work at." And that's how we have the best French employees in the world. The

best French employees arguably in the world are at Pali are in America. And

that's very counterintuitive. Working at

a company that's apparently a CIA uh front, [music] which is like, yeah obviously complete >> Yeah., No,, you, may, not, be, a, Thank, you, so

>> Yeah., No,, you, may, not, be, a, Thank, you, so much Alex.

>> Thank, you, very, much., Bye., Bye.

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