Hartmut Rosa - ¿Qué humanidad queremos ser?

[Music] Rosa professor university.

Welcome, Harm. How are you?

>> Hello.

>> I'm quite fine this morning. Thanks a

lot.

>> Great. you've been uh this is the second time you're uh a speaker at Congresso Futuro, but it's the first time that you come to Chile to participate in this event right?

>> That's right. Yeah, exactly. I've been

Yeah, I've been a few times in Chile already, but not in this uh great place.

>> Well, welcome. I hope you have a great time participating here at Congress.

which this year is based around the idea of the humanity and society and how society has transformed in the last

years. Uh most people would say faster

years. Uh most people would say faster than in other times and that's actually what your uh work has focused in the past years. You talk about acceleration

past years. You talk about acceleration but can you tell us more about what type of acceleration or what you define as acceleration? Yeah, I mean yeah I think

acceleration? Yeah, I mean yeah I think it's very important to really have a precise um concept of acceleration because you know for a long time people have felt something is accelerating so

some said the time itself is accelerating which I think is kind of confused concept right but some think history is accelerating or society is accelerating and in my view um there are

three different forms one are technological accelerations right quite quite obviously we have an incredible um speeding up of transport. So I always think if we watch the the earth from the

outside which you could do in Chile of course very well when you're in astronomy and then you could really see how we set the world in motion literally right with the more people are on the

move, things are on the move. We move

the earth almost with cars, with trains, with trucks, with uh subways and so on.

But uh then we also speed up um communication like all the way to the internet right and the production of goods and services. So this is technological but the second form is and

a lot of people feel that that the social fabric is changing the world does not stay the same right so every day there is uh there is not just news right

but we we have a for example we exchange clothes at a faster pace fashions but also ideas types of association right so the world around us changes faster and

faster I call this the acceleration of social change and finally there's also an acceleration of the pace of life. We

try to live faster, get more things done within a day or within a week or so. So

overall, it's really kind of dynamizing the world, setting it in motion. And and

this is not new in the 21st century.

It's been going on since the 18th century, but we have now with the digital technologies in particular, we have reached a new a new level of of acceleration.

>> Yeah. And and what you mentioned is really really interesting. I mean it resonates with a lot of people because >> we feel that the world we lived in I don't know 15 years ago is not the same

today >> and we always trying to catch something right is there's always this feeling of li being left behind.

>> Yeah.

>> So in terms of technology for example we technology always offers us this possibility of everything will be faster easier.

>> Yeah. Uh but it is is technology fulfilling that that promise? Well, I

think technology carries at least two promises, right? One is that it allows

promises, right? One is that it allows us to be faster and I think it's fulfilling that promise, right? It's

really true that it's faster if you take the plane than if you take the train for example, right? And of course, it's

example, right? And of course, it's faster if you uh use the telephone than if you have to walk or or or whatever.

So technology is speeding up the processes in life, but it's not delivering on two other grounds. Number

one, you would think that if we are faster and doing what we need to do, we can relax. We have more time, right? And

can relax. We have more time, right? And

that's not true since ages, right? The

the promise always is if you get faster, then you have more time. But it's

exactly the opposite, right? the you can really see as a sociologist or a historian looking at society the faster we get the more people feel pressed for time we're short on time we never have

enough right >> so um that is that is to do with what I call dynamic stabilization we we live in a world which needs to speed up in order

to keep what we have we need to achieve growth for example that means we need to produce more we need to consume more to distribute more in the same amount of time right so while we get faster, we

have to deal with more and more things, right? And there's even an explosion of

right? And there's even an explosion of the number of tasks, for example, we have to do so. So the technological speed up is not giving us the time promised. But I think what is more

promised. But I think what is more important is that there's the promise of of a good life of happiness, right? So

the idea always was if you use all these technologies, then we can finally care about what life really means, what it is about, right? Actually achieve the good

about, right? Actually achieve the good life. And it seems that this has never

life. And it seems that this has never been um delivered, right? It's it's a bit like you say, if you allow me that thought because I find it very important. You said it's always like a

important. You said it's always like a dream in front. We're chasing it, right?

But we never reach it. And that's

certainly true for most people, particularly in the middle classes, right? The idea is only if only I get

right? The idea is only if only I get the high school diploma, then the good life starts. But then you realize it's a

life starts. But then you realize it's a very shaky time. You have to find a place to work or or a course to study.

So you think if I finish my studies then the good life starts right but then you're in a very shaky phase again right because maybe you try to get a flat or an apartment or raise a family so it's

always postponed right but but the what I'm troubled with as a sociologist is that I think so far our modern society in Chile Latin America as in northern

America Europe we had this idea of moving forward life gets better we overcome scarcity right we overcome time shortage we overcome ignorance and so

on. So the idea of progress not as a

on. So the idea of progress not as a philosophical concept but as a concept of everyday life the idea that it will be better or particularly our kids will have a better life. This was the huge

promise of modern society I would say right of of our common humanity the we are working hard a lot of people say in in Chile in particular but elsewhere too we work hard we don't have much but our

kids will have a free life right and this kind of collective bright horizon where we can move towards has disappeared and this I think is dramatic for us as human beings because now the

feeling is if we don't run faster right if we don't work harder right we will fall back so we are no longer running towards the goal towards a bright horizon but we run away from the

apocalypse from the abbis which is coming from behind right and still even if we are successful we will maybe fall to climate crisis or economic downfall

and so on so I would say right now we are not no longer even running for the dream we're running away from the from the from the abbis from behind >> that's a really interesting way to look

at because yeah you you're right we always when it seems at least for me and what you're saying that >> we think well we can't uh fetch the dream. Yeah.

dream. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I can't I couldn't do it in my lifetime but I couldn't do it for my children.

>> Absolutely. And this always because I heard my my grandparents told my my mom and dad or my parents my parents telling the same to me and I now find myself

saying well if it's not for me it's for the next generation >> really because we actually know from empirical data that almost all over the world actually with the exception of Africa right now parents no longer think

their kids will have a better life they're almost convinced more than 70% say their kids will have a a worse life right it it will be worse than the life we have and this I think is a cultural

change which is huge.

>> Yeah. And and and speaking about this cultural change we always uh have this idea of the world is getting better like

you said but now there's a slightly slightly change and at some point I remember uh talking with you they're saying that we trying to master everything and at some point we ended up

not mastering anything.

>> Yes. So is there a relation with this idea with this new way to view the world? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean my

world? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean my you know I mean this acceleration if you so like right is the kind of the the the the objective side which you can structurally measure right but I think

as societies you know we are we are self-interpreting animals. So who we are

self-interpreting animals. So who we are is not kind of defined objectively but it depends on our self interpretation of our understanding of ourselves. Right?

And this is by the way why I like this year's Congress theme, right? What kind

of humanity do we want to be? I think

this is exactly the question we need to ask, right? It has to do with a

ask, right? It has to do with a self-interpretation, right? And there I

self-interpretation, right? And there I think modernity's cultural side, right?

The the global regime if you so like was the idea that we want to have control over the world that we can command it, right? I I sometimes talk of the AAA

right? I I sometimes talk of the AAA horizon of the good life which means we want to make the world available and attainable and accessible. It means we want to have a better view of what there

is with large telescopes and better microscopes. We want to have access, we

microscopes. We want to have access, we want to go there even go to the moon, go to the Mars, right? But also penetrate matter and and in quantum physics or everywhere and and we want to control

it. We want to control the processes

it. We want to control the processes like we want to control whether it's bright light in this room or or dark or whether it's hot or cold or loud or or or soft or so. So we want to have

control over the environment and over our lives and um so I but I think now we realize that the world is essentially uncontrollable right while we want to

control it we realize we actually create what I call monsters of uncontrollability right for example I mean climate crisis is such a monster right so it's lurking

in our backs while we want to control nature and and we achieved quite we got quite some way right we controlled nature quite a But now climate crisis and maybe other

disasters right are lurking in the back.

It's like when we got to matter from the inside we split the atom nuclear fusion or nuclear fissure right and um but but then the nuclear bomb or even the power

plant which explodes is a kind of monster we created and if you look exactly even the financial markets have kind of taken on that form and global politics it's not that we have created a

controllable world. You really don't

controllable world. You really don't know where new wars break out and the virus co has been a monster of uncontrollability right and even on an everyday level right we have kind of we

have become almost omnipotent with a remote control in our hand right but if it fails you might not be able to close the window and it rains or snows into your house right or you cannot turn down

the music or so right everyone knows the feeling when you have a when you work on a computer and the computer simply says just a moment please just a moment please for hours, right? And you can do

anything. So instead of creating a world

anything. So instead of creating a world which is under our control, we have created a world which is monstrously uncontrollable right?

>> Yeah. And the when when we talk about that a few years ago in Congress of Furo, the the example you gave us during the the call was really interesting for

me and I I kept saying, "Yeah, it's true. The idea of my cell phone is a

true. The idea of my cell phone is a reflection of me."

>> Yeah. And if I handed to you my cell phone, you won't be able to manage with the same ease that I do.

>> And 20 30 years ago, everyone could manage any any phone, >> any kind of device. Yeah.

>> So yeah, in in a sense, it's interesting to to note how you humans we create these monsters in terms of uncontrollable monsters trying to control everything.

>> Yeah. It's it's almost like this. I mean

the smartphone of course is a very interesting thing right we got so addicted to it but I think what is interesting there it's it's become what something I sometimes call it the mono channel to the world right because we

use it for everything right it's like it's like you could say part of our body but at the same time it's the world right I work on it I play on it I communicate through it I get my information through it I get

entertainment maybe even erotic adventures right so it's my channel to the world but it's always the same channel. It's my same body posture. I,

channel. It's my same body posture. I,

you know, I have the the head lowered, right? And I glance at the small square

right? And I glance at the small square and my thumb goes over a very smooth surface which has no contours. So, I

think this form of being in the world is problematic, right? And and again, this

problematic, right? And and again, this is why I think we need to do what you do at the congress here. Think about what kind of humanity do we want to enact to to u to make possible and what do we dream of.

>> Thank you, Harmon. We're going to uh take a pause and then we come back to thanks a lot to talk a little bit more.

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music] Welcome back, Harmon. How are you?

>> I'm still fine, thanks.

>> Harm, we were talking about acceleration, but also I know you um had other concepts such as resonance as a

counterpoint of acceleration. What do

you mean by resonance?

>> Yeah. And you know, I mean, when I when I analyzed the the processes of acceleration and what they do to us, right, I I realized as we said before, it they it doesn't seem to give us the

good life, right? People don't seem to have a be happy, you could say, right?

But rather the opposite. I mean, we know also from data all over the world that mental health is deteriorating really.

And but by the way, particularly for young people, I find this very kind of frightening. all over the world, our

frightening. all over the world, our young our high school students or university people or young people in general um they feel depressed. The

burnout rates are very high, right? And

for me that this is a these are signs and symptoms of alienation of a wrong way you could say of a distorted way of being in the world, right? Of

interacting with the world, right? So I

can be alienated from you for example, right? Or from people and you feel like

right? Or from people and you feel like it's simply they don't speak to me. I of

course I can talk but they don't touch me right but also from the work I do maybe from the place I live in alienation is a it's sometimes been defined philosophically as a

relationship without a true relation right so I ask myself what would be a non-alienated form of being in the world right what's the opposite of alienation

right so you could also ask what is a truly related form of relationship and this is how I arrived at the concept of resonance when I'm in resonance with something that I'm not alienated, right?

Even in a in a conversation like we're having, right? What does resonance mean?

having, right? What does resonance mean?

Right? It means on the one hand that's that that what what we talk, what you ask, what you say touches me. It speaks

to me. I find it interesting, right? You

actually see it in my eyes, right? They

kind of beam up and I think, "Oh, that's interesting." Right? And you even in the

interesting." Right? And you even in the body, right? So, um, but it doesn't have

body, right? So, um, but it doesn't have to be conversations. It can be music which all of a sudden touches me, right?

or a a landscape like like you have in Chile, right, with Y and with the with the desert. It it means something to me.

the desert. It it means something to me.

That's number one, right? And then I answer it. I do something with it. And

answer it. I do something with it. And

that's the moment when I start to feel alive, right? That's the opposite of

alive, right? That's the opposite of burnout or depression. Depression is the sign of alienation, the the paradigm case, because it means nothing touches

me and I'm incapable of reaching out, breaking my my cell so to speak, right?

And connect. So resonance is a kind of dynamic interplay between ourselves and the world you could say right um it has these two elements number one something speaks to me something touches me and

I'm capable of connecting of reaching out you see it in the whole body right if someone gets a resonance and there is always an element of transformation in these moments when you feel come alive

you don't stay the same right you feel that that there is change and there is movement transformation within you but and this is where my ideas on uncontrollability come

We cannot fabricate moments of resonance. We try we try to buy them

resonance. We try we try to buy them right for example and commodify them. So

you buy a ticket to a concert or a play whatever it is or maybe to a trip to the desert right and of course you might have my favorite example there are cruises when you go on a ship and you

get a polar light guarantee you right you get the guarantee that you will see these wonderful lights right. So you

might commodify the lights but you cannot commodify the experience. Maybe

you are in a bad mood that day because you were in an argument with your friend, right? And then uh it there's no

friend, right? And then uh it there's no resonance, right? So you you cannot kind

resonance, right? So you you cannot kind of engineer or bring about or instrumentally control resonance and you cannot control the outcome of resonant of a resonant experience. So resonance

is a different way of being in the world of relating to the world. It has to do with what I what I think what what life really is, right? And it releases a form of energy when you get in resonance with

the world. It's a kind of full of

the world. It's a kind of full of energetic encounter. And I think this is

energetic encounter. And I think this is exactly what we are lacking when we're close to a burnout, right? It feels like I'm still working, but it's just me who has to invest more and more energy,

right? Nothing is coming back. The the

right? Nothing is coming back. The the

threat between me and life is gone. So

resonance for me is the conception of a good life. And I would like humanity to

good life. And I would like humanity to go there. Right? So when you ask me

go there. Right? So when you ask me what's what kind of humanity are we dreaming of, I would say we're dreaming of a resonant world, of a resonant way of being in the world.

>> Is well I resonance a lot with with that idea because it it seems like every time you're trying to be with be in the

world, right? like and and there's this

world, right? like and and there's this idea of you have to be constantly in the world but the moment I don't know I I I enjoy baking for example >> you enjoy >> baking.

>> Yeah. Oh yeah yeah yeah.

>> You know so at some point I start baking for myself.

>> Yeah. But it seems for the the for for for society or for other people it was like you need to bake for to sell and I

start selling my my baked goods and at some point it was like >> I don't want to do this I don't feel connected with this and

>> for you this constant this you can't fabricate resonance but how can how could we live in resonance for example?

Yeah, I mean yeah that's it's good that you ask this because when I when I make this point about the uncontrollability it sounds like there's nothing we can do right but what what I mean is you cannot

really engineer or fabricate the experience but of course we can create and we should think about the conditions under which it becomes possible to be in resonance right and there you see and

this is what how it connects to acceleration right when you when you are under time pressure then you will not get in resonance with anything Right. Um

because because uh when I have to catch the airplane at the airport, right? I

may not get in resonance with the most interesting person or the most interesting music or idea or landscape, right? I kind I have to become deaf and

right? I kind I have to become deaf and blind in order to reach my plane. And

with this acceleration, right, I really think we are now all the time on our way to the airport, metaphorically speaking, right? And also so when I'm for example

right? And also so when I'm for example when I'm afraid right when you are capable of firing me or so right or when I'm in a competition I have to fight the others then you then it's very

unreasonable and unlikely to be in resonance right so we cannot fabricate resonance but we can think about the conditions which allow us to be in resonance and when you speak about

baking right I think there it's I mean it's might sound a bit romantic or nostalgic but I'm only describing it Right resonance is kind of it's necessary that you that you really

become an agent right working on things right that means there are some you know it's kind it has a moment of uncontrollability for example my father was a baker right so I grew up with that

>> and he would say and I think he was good at baking right and but he said every time the bread when it comes out of the oven is a bit differently right you have to watch it to observe it to react to it

sometimes it's too dry sometimes it's too wet whatever too to too um too hot or too to not hot enough. So it's

interaction it's action right nowadays we have try we try to standardize and mechanize the process right so instead of baking you just push three buttons right and I would say when you push

three buttons or five right Richard Sennet has written on this right that's not a process when you can really get in resonance with yourself and with a product and the things you do right so

so my idea that we cannot control or fabricate resonant experiences does not mean that we cannot control or even device and design social conditions which allow us to be in resonate

resonance with each other with ourselves. By the way, that's important

ourselves. By the way, that's important too, right? And um and with the things

too, right? And um and with the things we work on and there's there there's a concept or there's an idea that that we mentioned earlier as well that that an

increasingly pessimistic world. Yeah.

>> Right. We we live in an increasingly pessimistic world where there's no possibility because there's so many crisis. there's no way to to to cope

crisis. there's no way to to to cope with th with that those crisis but >> has your work reflect on the

possibilities of create this uh new world of coming back to optimism yeah I mean that's that's very interesting we at the university I work at university

of ya and airford also right we now have a new huge project a collective project it's called imagammics right it's not just about social imaginaries, which

images of imagining, right? How can we actually collectively um come into a situation into processes where a new future we

want to walk move towards is um is coming up. It's kind of you know it's

coming up. It's kind of you know it's not about I think it's impossible to simply say oh here's my new vision of the future just accept it right. So we

have to think of the conditions and processes that we start I would almost say start dreaming again right and um personally I really want to walk to work on this um element of social energy

because I think this is kind of lacking right as as you said right now we only have pessimistic visions of the future we walk in one of the apocalyptic

scenarios so what is missing and I think what is missing really is this is what it you know Hannah Arand the philosopher right speaks of the this moment of

natality when kind of all of a sudden something new emerges right which then becomes attractive right and I think this it's this actually springs from

interactive processes where people really um um kind of work together live together think together without you know with what what I want to get at is that

sometimes if things go well even at a congress here right I mean if you're really lucky right then in a congresso Right? All of a sudden when you finish

Right? All of a sudden when you finish you have the feeling, oh there was something new emerged. Right? And if

something like that happens, you cannot say it was him or it was her who started it. Right? It's kind of coming out of

it. Right? It's kind of coming out of the middle. I I I want to get at this

the middle. I I I want to get at this with a concept of medial passacivity or the third voice. It's when you're in a state in between the active and the passive. So let's say you participate in

passive. So let's say you participate in a conference like this and you're totally active. You participate but

totally active. You participate but you're also totally passive, totally open to what others are saying, right?

And then something new emerges out of the middle. And I think we have lost

the middle. And I think we have lost this form in between the active and the passive. Medial passacivity where

passive. Medial passacivity where something new emerges. Uh and I think we need to what what I want to do is to to study to analyze those moments. What

does it need? What form of interaction is necessary to allow this new to emerge? But it's difficult because our

emerge? But it's difficult because our culture is not really moving there. It's

it's difficult but I think it's possible and and and in that sense activities like this are not just congress but also

other ways to connect with people to to bring that resonance and to >> try to let go the control

at all times is always a good thing.

>> Yeah. But yes. Yeah. Well probably not always right. I mean there are sometimes

always right. I mean there are sometimes there are conditions where we need to which we need to control but but but you're right I mean you know I I I like to quote Leonard Cohen there with his song Anthem

>> there is a crack in everything that's how the light gets in and I would really say kind of almost everything we do right there are small openings like small windows where there's the the

possibility for resonance on every workplace in every school in in politics for example if you do politics right normally it's fighting right? And kind

of standing your ground and trying to be to make fun of the other or so. There

comes a moment which really allows for real interaction when you then you again that's the moment when you start to feel alive and that's the small cracks where the light gets in.

>> Thank you very much Harmwood for this conversation. It's really really

conversation. It's really really interesting to see the possibilities and also to be able to with your talk and the talks

that happening in Congress Furo to answer the question what humanity we would like to become.

>> Absolutely.

>> So thank you very much for for this interview and see you at your talk later this evening.

>> Thanks a lot. All the best for you.

for [Music] [Applause] [Music] heat.