How Balance app is reshaping women’s hormonal health

Today I talk a lot about my free balance app and I've got with me Matt Jones who's a managing director of Balance. He

has a wealth of experience and knowledge which he's really bringing to shape and change balance so that it's not just a menopausal app. It's an app for all

menopausal app. It's an app for all women so women can be empowered with information that's relevant to them so that they can get the right treatment hopefully from their healthcare provider

wherever they live. We talk about how balance is already shaping the future for a lot of women and how it's really helped them and the plans that we have.

Some of them quite ambitious going forwards.

So Matt, really great that you're here.

I want to talk about balance app because I haven't really spoken about it on a podcast for a long time and when people not always but when they sort of recognize me or stop me in the street

it's very humbling because they normally thank me for the work I do but it's usually either the podcast or balance and they're the two things that I'm the most proud of actually like obviously

I'm proud of being a doctor I'm proud of being a mother but you know my mission is to give people as much information as possible in ways that they understand so they can be empowered and make choices

about their health. So the last bit making choices about their health I feel it's up to them not up to me as a doctor. I'm not a dictator. I'm not

doctor. I'm not a dictator. I'm not

patriarchal. It's about people being able to choose. So balance is a really really important part of my work. And

the last year or so I've sort of been babysitting it because there's been all sorts of things going on. But I set it up a few years ago. It's had the most

phenomenal feedback and global reach.

So, you're the managing director of Balance. You've been with us for a few

Balance. You've been with us for a few weeks, but it feels like a few years actually because I'm not here to really big you up, but I do want to say in public, you're very missiondriven as

well.

>> And you really understand what I'm trying to do with balance. Is that fair to say?

>> Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think the overall purpose of the app is to inform women.

>> Um, it's a massive equity issue that women have to suffer some of these >> symptoms in silence or at least uh in some kind of >> state of subjugation almost. And you

know I >> I've got women in my life um that brought me up to care about those things, but also um who have suffered from them as well. not just you know menopause and parmenopause but my

daughter and her journey with >> um contraception you know wasn't great.

>> Yeah.

>> And um you know so to me it's important it's a it's a really big challenge >> and the value of of >> rising to it and overcoming it is pretty significant.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. because I I set it up really because I exposed myself as you know quite a lot to social media and my reach wasn't nearly as big as it is now. But I

was getting a lot and I still am DMs from women. So direct messages from

from women. So direct messages from women telling me that they've gone to their doctor, they've been told they're too young, they're too old, they don't need hormones, that they need anti-depressants, but they know that

there's more and what other resources can they have? Yeah. And so I'd spend a long time messaging them, which time I don't really have and obviously got a lot of resources on my website, but then

I just thought, look, not everyone, but most people have got access to a phone.

>> And [clears throat] it's such an empowering thing. And also for me,

empowering thing. And also for me, whether there's one person, a hundred, a thousand, a million or millions of women, it's the same effort really, isn't it? When you've got the

isn't it? When you've got the infrastructure right and that's where technology is transformational, isn't it?

>> Yeah. And you know the the platform as it is is is already reaching you know hundreds of thousands of women >> on a monthly basis. It's providing

really good feedback is providing a place for them to talk about >> what's happening in their lives that's safe and reasonably >> kind of it's a community of interest if you like and you know the main thing is

it actually allows them to do something so they can track their symptoms. >> They can generate reports that empower them when they go to see their GP. uh

but also um just seeing those reports and that data I think will help them understand that there is something >> going on underneath that you know needs to be looked at.

>> Yeah, I think it helps them validate their symptoms. So we've recently changed the symptom questionnaire on it, haven't we? We had there was a shorter

haven't we? We had there was a shorter one and with the research team I work with and within the clinic, we've created a much longer symptom questionnaire and I know when I was initially thinking about putting it on balance, some people said, "Oh, that

will take people too long. they might

not want it but actually what the feedback we are getting from lots of women is that wow I didn't realize those symptoms were connected so it's actually really helpful isn't it

>> yeah and you know I think one of the things that balance gives us the opportunity to do is collect data >> and to be able to to look at that data for patterns for insights for trends

that are relevant to women and and the users of the app but also relevant to the entire community >> and it's really important to me because I'm very scientific as now. But it's

also really astounding that menopause affects half the population. Hormones

that change affect half the population.

Yet there's vanishingly little research.

When you look at some of the research about symptoms, it's still focused on the vasom motor symptoms, the flushes and the sweats. And a lot of people, and I've been at quite senior meetings where

doctors who are very senior have been saying, "Oh gosh, people have joint pains and they think that's hormonal.

that's ridiculous or their migraines or their urinary symptoms. And of course, I know it's related. But if I say, "Oh, yes, I've seen two patients this week who have had urinary symptoms and eight patients this week have migraines."

That's really small numbers.

>> But when you talk about hundreds of thousands of women Yeah.

>> who having symptoms, it's hard to ignore those numbers, isn't it?

>> Well, I mean, and the data that you've produced recently um with the symptoms, the top 10, you know, it is the hot flushes aren't even in it, I don't.

>> No, they're not. No, I think they were like number 14 or something, weren't they?

>> It feels to me like it's just easy answers with simple solutions. And in

fact, it's a much more complicated, very individual problem that needs to be solved for everybody.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when we collect the data, just to reassure people, it's completely anonymized.

People consent, don't they, when they sign up to the app. We don't work with any pharmaceutical companies. We're not

sharing the data. We all we're doing is using it to help more women. And that's

really important. And I know when I was presenting some data at a conference a couple of years ago and it was not nearly as big numbers as we have now and people going wow Louise gosh this is amazing I've got a study of you know

eight women who've tried a treatment or whatever and but it's also looking globally because it's quite hard to access information globally in different regions different areas and also knowing

what people want because >> the app was very much designed obviously I'm a woman but we had a female team who were asking women, what do they want out of an app? What would help them? And we

want to get it right, don't we? What

we're doing with it.

>> We do. And and we want to expand and to provide this information globally >> and um you know to to be able to reach as many women as we possibly can to give them

>> that opportunity um to to learn and to understand, >> but to do it again in their own language and in line with their own kind of cultural norms as much as we can.

>> Yeah. Um, but the the thing about the app is it's in their pocket. Most women

will have a phone, >> you know, they can carry it around. It's

pretty discreet and they're able to, you know, really drill in because there's so much information in the app.

>> Yeah.

>> So, they can really, you know, >> almost follow their symptoms and their own kind of circumstances through that that data. And then there's the

that data. And then there's the community where they can go and see what other people are talking about >> and find agency, which I think is one of the most important things.

>> Yeah. And it's a it's a good community.

people are really helping each other and supporting each other on the community section, aren't they?

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's um it's phenomenal how um how active it is considering, as you said, it's been babysat for a little while.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> It's just purring along.

>> But what we have been doing is adding content all the time. And that's

something as a medical writer, I feel very strongly that it's a skill I have that I want to help and share. And we've

constantly added more information. And

recently, we've added a search function to it. So, it's a lot easier to access

to it. So, it's a lot easier to access information, isn't it? Yeah, the search really helps um drill into into the details. You can go find what you want

details. You can go find what you want and save it and build collection of information that that you're actually looking for because there's so much in it. It it it potentially could be a bit

it. It it it potentially could be a bit overwhelming. But

overwhelming. But >> you know, I think >> when women find the information they're looking for, that overwhelm tends to sort of dissipate a bit because they they find >> some answers. They find some leads that

they can follow.

>> Yeah.

>> And talk to their their GP about.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, when you knew that we were looking for somebody to work with us, >> Yeah.

>> what sort of made you really interested or excited about it?

>> When I left my last full-time job, I I wanted something different.

>> Um, I've done the same kind of tech business growth challenges for most of my career. I wanted something that was

my career. I wanted something that was more purpose purpose, >> less wealth creation, more purpose, more >> um >> sort of social value if you like. Um, I

I wanted to work for a female boss.

[laughter] Um, that was another one of my criteria.

>> Why is that?

>> Uh, just because I've mostly worked for men.

>> Okay.

>> You know, I >> No pressure then.

>> Well, yeah. No, I think um I don't want to stereotype gender roles and and leadership capabilities, but it's just a change that I wanted and I wanted something that was to do with um with healthcare and and with with generally

generally with health because I just think it's >> it's very meaningful. You know, I've had my own health challenges in the past and >> you know, >> the thing that you find when you have something like that happen is you need

data. You need to understand what's

data. You need to understand what's going on.

>> So, irrespective of conditions or or um or gender, you know, data when you have a health challenge is extremely important. And I think that's where

important. And I think that's where balance just >> really intersects the market. And

>> going from my old kind of tech world, the kind of product market fit that balance has, the kind of engagement it has most investors would die for that kind of leading indicator.

>> Yeah. Well, I've been really protective of balance. I sort of see it as another

of balance. I sort of see it as another child really. I've I've turned away a

child really. I've I've turned away a lot of investment opportunities because I think they haven't been done with the right right motives.

>> And there are a few things just to be really clear to people listening that are not going to happen with the app.

So, I'm not going to ever offer consultations through the app. I'm not

going to sell supplements. I'm not going to work with pharma and those things are really really important um that people know because there are or there have

been lots of fem apps, lots of lots of big money as well that's been invested >> and then people have struggled and they've either like sold coaching or they've sold supplements because that's easy. But I don't think we need to do

easy. But I don't think we need to do that, do we?

>> No. There is a pretty stable, pretty solid user base. M

>> you know we've got over 100,000 active users each month without really trying hard >> and we're going to try much harder.

>> Yeah.

>> And we're going to um you know add new features. We're going to I've got

features. We're going to I've got >> hundreds of user requests to process >> for the kind of feature enhancements that we're looking for that I need to work through.

>> Um and you know as I said we're going to go global and we're going to try and drive as much insight for our users as we can from the data that they provide.

you know, whether you're a paid user or not, >> you know, the data you give us is valuable and we want to treat it that way. So, we [clears throat] will protect

way. So, we [clears throat] will protect it. We will make sure that it doesn't go

it. We will make sure that it doesn't go anywhere it shouldn't.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, in the future, if we were to do some kind of research tie up, it would be opt in. So, the users will be given the opportunity to get involved in something that might be off off app.

>> Yes. But um you know with the goal that it's again you know we're getting a multiplying effect by being able to provide that user base to that kind of situation. We talked at my interview

situation. We talked at my interview about the the overall purpose of balance [music] >> and um you know I did have some walk away criteria but they didn't come up so I was I was delighted.

>> Good.

As our hormones change throughout our lives, especially during permenopause and menopause, looking after our bones, muscles, and balance becomes even more

important. That's why I love Vivo

important. That's why I love Vivo Barefoot. Their shoes are designed to

Barefoot. Their shoes are designed to let your feet move more naturally, helping you build strength and stability from the ground up. That natural

movement can support not just your physical health, but your sense of well-being, too. Vivo Barefoot are so

well-being, too. Vivo Barefoot are so confident you'll feel the difference that they offer a 100day trial with a full money back guarantee. So you can

try them completely risk-f free. And as

a listener of this podcast, you get 20% off your first order with the code new 20. Just head to vivobarefoot.com

20. Just head to vivobarefoot.com and give them a try. Your body will thank you.

I just want to remind you that I'm the founder of the free balance app which you should all be downloading so you can learn so much more about your hormones from and also monitor symptoms if you're

having them. So just head to the app

having them. So just head to the app store or Google play and download [music] balance app and and having worked with balance really you've got really into the detail

very quickly and seeing what what it what it's doing now but what it's capable of. Is there anything that has

capable of. Is there anything that has either surprised you or enlightened you about it?

>> Yes, it it's not new information for you, but the way women use it, >> the trust they put in it.

>> I think for me the the biggest moment really was just realizing how massive a problem this is. We're talking a tiny sliver >> of the global market >> of women

>> that will suffer some kind of >> um >> problem as a result of of permenopause and menopause and and even all of the other hormonal things that happen. It

it's it's almost as if a you know I can't unsee it now.

>> Yeah.

>> And and that it kind of amplified the overall size of the goal, the size of the challenge >> and um to try and turn global thinking

around. Um, and I, you know, you've had

around. Um, and I, you know, you've had problems trying to get traction. You've

had resistance to try and push these things ahead. What we really need is for

things ahead. What we really need is for women to almost rise up and demand it.

>> And they need the data to do that.

>> Yeah. And I think it's changing. I mean,

you can probably maybe understand why I spend so much of my time cross.

>> Yeah.

>> Because the injustice is palpable.

>> The the failure of the medical establishment for a lot of women, it really is. You can feel it. You can

really is. You can feel it. You can

sense it. And

>> I sense it because I hear it in the clinic, but I also feel it for social media. But you only need to go in the

media. But you only need to go in the community section. And

community section. And >> I find it really, really upsetting >> as a healthare professional who I know I can help all these women on the app. But

of course, I can't because there's only one of me.

>> Yeah.

>> But what I want to really do is to change it for future generations as well. And when I started with balance,

well. And when I started with balance, it was very much it was a menopause app and we obviously included perry menopause. Yeah.

menopause. Yeah.

>> But my whole way of thinking about hormones has really changed. The

labeling of patients and women has really changed as well because >> I feel as a doctor it it's irrelevant what diagnosis it is. It's about the treatments. Yeah. So if I say to a

treatments. Yeah. So if I say to a woman, oh, you've got PMDDD, you've got polycystic ovarian syndrome, you've got endometriosis, what does that mean to them? It just means suffering. But what

them? It just means suffering. But what

they need to know is about what causes it and what treatments available.

>> So we're going to be working really hard to open up the app for all women really with any hormonal issue, >> which is so important, isn't it?

>> It is. And I think there's there will be equal amounts of demand >> in that in that track. I mean

>> when I first started working for you, I showed um your podcast to my daughter and the app and she said, "Oh, it's such a shame it's just for permenopause and menopause."

menopause." >> And I said, "Not for long."

>> Yeah.

>> Um you know, because she she had her own um issues with the pill and um >> you know, she came off it eventually because she just wasn't feeling great as a consequence. She feels much better.

a consequence. She feels much better.

>> Yeah.

>> And um you know, she she I think would would be a very opposite target kind of audience if you like that that kind of emerging from

puberty and into adult life. I think

such such a tempestuous moment for >> it's really hard for women. It's really

hard and and like we often we're very open as a family and we have our meals together as a family when we're together and my all three of my daughters actually say gosh how do people cope

when they don't have medical parents because so many symptoms that we know are are really very trivial or other symptoms that we know are associated with the hormones or with a side effect

from contraception.

we can pick it up when I say we my husband and I like very quickly because we've got that knowledge but actually people don't have the knowledge and they might have one doctor in their local village who may or may not be able to

help them and this is where I think balance really does come into its own because you can really search and understand and what's relevant for for you and hear about other people's

experiences as well.

>> Yeah. And as I said before, I think it's so key when when you when you struggle with how you feel and the kind of foundations of your normal existence get rattled

>> that that need for data, that need for meaning and understanding is >> is quite intense and and it's evident, clearly evident that women have not been having that level of or the right level

of information. No,

of information. No, >> until recently.

>> And I was really frustrated this morning. There was something on the

morning. There was something on the radio and someone was saying, "Well, of course, menopause occurs at a time when women are struggling because they've got elderly relatives, they've got young

children." And it's always this like

children." And it's always this like excuse, but actually what no one's thinking about is what about their hormonal change and why aren't we giving hormones back? And there is this people

hormones back? And there is this people are still scared of HRT. They're scared

of testosterone for women. Yet, as yours also knows, it's very easy to get contraception. So, it's really in

contraception. So, it's really in congress. It doesn't make sense. But

congress. It doesn't make sense. But

women are understanding it. But you

know, we've got this global problem that all women will have hormonal changes and with time they'll all be menopausal which we know is associated with health risks. We know all the guidelines, all

risks. We know all the guidelines, all the evidence is very clear that hormones, especially the natural body identical hormones are firstline treatment for women.

>> Yeah.

>> Yet globally, it's only 5% of women.

>> Yeah.

>> On average that treated.

>> I know. It's crazy, isn't it?

>> Yeah.

>> It doesn't make any sense.

>> Did it shock you? Like just did you realize it was that bad? I I do, like I said, I can't unsee it, you know. And I

look back now um at my >> my life, my family, my wife, my ex-wife, and I think >> there are so many things there that >> are potentially um >> could have been helped and could have

been different if >> there was a kind of a keen awareness of what >> natural hormones can do for people >> and that you get to an age where they start to naturally dissipate.

>> And everyone thinks it's a natural process. And it may well be because

process. And it may well be because evolution doesn't care about people beyond a certain age, but fundamentally >> it's causing symptoms and health risks.

>> I don't think it was you, but someone said if this was happening to a man, it would have been fixed a long time ago.

>> Of course it would.

>> And that I think is is the equity issue.

That's that's the real thing that kind of attracts me to this challenge and trying to make as big a difference as possible.

>> You know, and I'm just about building an app, you know. I'm not I'm not I'm not going to change the world medically, but you know, it's it's for for me it's it's a it's a viable worthy cause.

>> It is mad. I mean, I s I play a lot of mind games with myself and I um I've I read Matt Hey, the humans years ago, and it's one of my favorite books, but I sometimes think about if I was a if I

was an outer space person coming and just visiting the world for the first time, and he talks about the madness of us getting dressed and doing um sort of the routines that we do and even walking rather than crouching over and various

things. It's a really great book. But I

things. It's a really great book. But I

think gosh if someone had said to me there is a condition that might be a natural condition but it affects half the population. We know that the

the population. We know that the majority of women will have symptoms affecting their mental health, their mood, their memory, their energy, their sleep. We know it's associated with

sleep. We know it's associated with increased risk of diseases. We know most people will have vaginal dryness soreness to sex will be really painful.

But we have a really cheap available treatment that is safe.

>> But the minority of women are given it.

Like it's just nonsical, isn't it?

>> It it it beggars belief.

>> I can't square that one. If I was an alien, I'd be saying, "What the hell's going on?"

going on?" >> Yeah. But that's where I think

>> Yeah. But that's where I think >> What have they done?

>> I'm very interested in the history of medicine, and I can see why things have happened for the wrong reasons. And

menopause has gone into the the wrong hands. You know, often people think

hands. You know, often people think about it as a gynecological issue. It's

about periods and it's not.

>> But there have been other doctors that have really tried hard to do similar things to I've done and been really knocked down. And obviously I've been

knocked down. And obviously I've been knocked down a lot. But I think what's different now is that we can access and educate people in ways that right for

them. So the way that technology is, the

them. So the way that technology is, the way that AI is, >> it's a double-edged sword sometimes because, you know, I can Google what are the risks of HRT and it will tell me

incorrectly that all HRT has a risk of clots and heart disease and stroke, which I know it doesn't if it's body identical.

>> So that's where the human touch with technology has got to almost always stay together.

>> Yeah, I I agree. And um you know we we're talking about AI and how we might utilize that safely.

>> Yeah.

>> It could massively help find patterns, insights, things that we might not necessarily see.

>> But it can also help balance which is you know a free app ostensibly >> um to limit its costs by automating some of the tasks that >> we don't need people to do. Yeah.

>> And um you know so there's there's a great utility in technology and you know this challenge and the internet you know everybody knows the internet has created a knowledge

>> explosion you know and and >> consequently we're able to access people anywhere in the world providing they have access to a mobile and or

>> a laptop or an iPad >> and uh they can get hold of this information and educate themselves >> and you know doesn't matter really where they are the problems that the medical issues will be the same. Now obviously

the country might have different laws around hormones and therapies but >> you know I think over time when people start to rise up the the equity issue and the productivity drain of

>> of women leaving the workforce >> it just seems to again be overlooked and it's like well surely that's a massive issue for all of our economies.

>> Of course it is. And um you know just I think my wife said it it's crazy you know I spent years getting to be an expert in my field and she also works in the NHS.

>> She says I'm at the pinnacle of it and that the menopause came along and felt like it just robbed me of it.

>> She's getting treatment now and that's working for her. So she's

>> she's not quite as desperate as she was when it first kicked off but but fundamentally um she still struggles.

She's still having issues, you know, she's in it.

>> Yeah. And uh I think I think my understanding is she's going to be in it probably for the rest of her life until she >> Yeah. And that's why optimizing hormones

>> Yeah. And that's why optimizing hormones is so important. You know, a lot of women who come to our clinic are already taking hormones, but they're just not on the right dose and type. And it can take a while. You know, we have to be really

a while. You know, we have to be really patient. And I know myself, you know, a

patient. And I know myself, you know, a few months ago, I wasn't feeling right.

And is it is it what's going on? Is it

is it what's the children or is it is it my hormones? And it's really hard

my hormones? And it's really hard sometimes to know. and then you know had a review changed a dose of something and then it's like wow I feel amazing this is great um and it it's all the time but

our hormones are constantly changing so it's naive to think one dose is going to help but that's where you know knowing it's safe and I often say to patients if we change your dose you'll know within a

you know quite soon but if you want to stop then you can do because it will come out of your system very quickly it doesn't build up in your body and there's all these myths and fears that are usually unfounded Um, but it's the

confusion and then people don't know where to go. So, we've got a lot we need to do and want to do with balance and we I want to keep it free. We've got this balance plus because it has to fund

itself >> so that we can shape it in the way that we want to. But we've got lots of ideas for balance plus, haven't we?

>> Yeah, we do. You know, the the core purpose of balance is to share information, but balance plus is there for people that >> want a little bit more and can go a little bit deeper. Um we're looking at

serializing content um around themes um and issues that we see in our data.

>> Um giving early previews to some of that, but also doing kind of um content exchanges with with other >> kind of friendly adjacent um

>> creators uh with a view to giving a bit of added value back into the to that user base and also you know any surplus to to help with the research effort that that you're you're driving at the back

of it all.

>> Yeah. So, you know, it's it's trying to find value and give a good return on our users investment in Balance Plus.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, and to make sure that there's a downstream kind of benefit for everyone that uses Balance as it all kind of begins to become established and and flow outwards over time.

>> And it's really important because someone said to me a few years ago, look, Louise, why don't you just make it a pound a month for everybody because then you would have the finances to keep going with it. But I really pushed back.

Um I fell out with a few people over it.

But actually that wasn't the point of setting it up and I really want to make sure because it's so hard like you as you know the stories it's so hard for women and I don't feel they need to pay

for something that's giving but it can really help and transform their lives.

>> Yeah. And you know knowledge should be free because it's power.

>> Absolutely. And and to make change but I mean I the app has really good reviews from women which is great. But we've

been app day quite a few times, haven't we?

>> Yeah, we have indeed. Yeah. Well over

150 in the last three years, I think.

>> That's amazing, isn't it?

>> And um it it is quite incredible how it becomes app of the day around the world in countries that I don't even think we have um users contributing as much as

they could.

>> Um but you know, part of the reason we want to translate it because I think it deserves >> Yeah.

>> to be available in those countries.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it is it is staggering how it the app performs um just without any real kind of underpinnings. It just

manages to do >> I mean I've never spent big money marketing it or anything. It's just

evolved and I think that's the power of women as well because women share, women talk, women communicate and they want to help each other. So I really hope going forwards I can continue to be proud and

even prouder of it and obviously there's a lot of pressure on you Matt to do lots of things.

>> Yeah. Including the user growth.

>> Yeah. It's an exciting journey though.

>> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, given the size of the market, it should be easy to to get to a meteoric levels of active users. But um and given the subject

users. But um and given the subject matter and the fact that it's [clears throat] >> it's like any lifelong thing, it it's going to be there. People are going to need it at different stages in their lives, especially as it broadens.

>> Yeah.

>> So, as you say, it's not just about permenopause and menopause. That's just

where there's an acute problem.

>> And um I think there are others in younger age groups.

>> Absolutely. There's loads. So, you're

going to have your work cut out. That's

for sure. So,

>> before we finish, three take-h home tips. Now, this is really easy for you

tips. Now, this is really easy for you because I'm just going to ask you three reasons why people listening should all download the app. What what

why would they do it? So I think if you're permenopausal and menopausal or think you might be you'll find some trains of knowledge that will help you understand if you are and you be able to

go and speak to your GP if you are looking after or a loved one of somebody in that position you can do the same and you can also go there to find help about other hormonal conditions and what to do

about them and what the kind of symptoms might be so you can begin to correlate and work out if it's there. So it's

really about hormonal health of women uh and also propagating the understanding of that not just amongst females and women but amongst their partners.

>> Yeah.

>> And their loved ones and their colleagues and their employers.

>> Yeah.

>> You know it's really important that this stuff becomes totally dstigmatized and absolutely normal to talk about um because it is absolutely normal and it

happens to every woman.

>> Yeah. But we this will help move the dial even more forward. So

people will not just be normalizing the conversation but then thinking about action to really help and that's when the change is going to happen.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So thank you so much for coming. [music]

>> Thank you for having me. So soon.