How To Close $50,000+/m In DMs, No Sales Team ($1B in Client Assets)

you're the founder of hover which has over a billion dollars in assets serving Venture funds even though you've only been working on this company for less than a year I am obsessed with this idea of inbound to outbound literally I don't

think anyone's ever talked about this publicly is every single person who interacts with a piece of my content is actually getting an outbound DM from me how do you decide or determine who you're going to reach out to I have a

little hack that people find might valuable I I call it I was looking at your like your most viral post my most viral tweet was yesterday did you see Elon retweeted me yeah Elon musk's like remote work is poison and you have a lot

of tweets also that kind of went viral recently around like how to build a company that is like kind of fun to work at people are ready to stay till 8:30 like how do you convince the first person or the second person that you're going to be here till like 9:00 p.m. it

starts at the right co-founder we set the tone from day one that he's always first in the office I'm almost always last in the office to me it's insane to ask someone to stay late or come in

early when the founders themselves are you know leaving at 5 p.m. I meet this team it's like a a pretty big Finance team I get on the call I'm like walking them through here's this crazy Vision we have this final operating system for

funds you never need to log into 50 other places and literally the guy looked me in the face and was like I have no idea if you're just a good bullshitter or you guys are actually going to deliver something crazy and I was like can I just literally get on a

plane and meet you in Salt Lake City right now and so I get on the plane and meet them with basically nothing prepared now that's turned into a whatever it takes to win I will do whatever plan I need to get on I will do

because I know my competitors probably won't do that Chris welcome to the podcast let's go I'm happy to be here this has been too long Omar we were going to do this in person but I'm glad we can do it anyway I'm glad we can do it here we'll

do it again in person we'll keep it going um but you're the founder of hover which has over a billion dollars in assets serving Venture funds even though you've only been working on this company

for less than a year shh yeah don't tell anyone that no yeah it's it's been fun we basically were like you know tldr thesis is fund admins broken people are paying six or seven figures to not

scrope your accounting if you're a venture fund paying six or seven figures we thought that was insane and so we built the accounting system from scratch and then we built a bunch of sexy things on top of the core data that you can do

AI co-pilots talk to your data AI portfolio management all that stuff and so yeah we've had some some good early traction so far amazing I want to talk about your sales and marketing specifically how you went to Market cuz I feel like and we were talking about

this before too but a lot of San Francisco is based on or Silicon Valley talks about like product L growth uh and not enough time is spent talking about like the sales and go to market but you guys have kind of have that cracked or you guys have kind of you know have that

all figured out so I think it' be interesting to kind of jump into even how you got your first few customers yeah I am obsessed with this idea of inbound to outbound and I think no literally I don't think anyone's ever

talked about this publicly and so this idea that everyone thinks about is you post on social you post a tweet you post on LinkedIn someone that's potentially in your ideal customer profile they open up your Tweet and say say wow I want to

be a Handover customer and then they go book a demo on your site and we do that for where we're selling into which is like six figure plus ACV that is not typically the norm people are not

looking to book demos for fund new fund admins every single day and so one thing that I've done to basically take like top of funnel middle of funnel bottom of funnel content engine on both Twitter and Linkedin which we can dig into is

every single person who interacts with a piece of my content is actually getting an outbound DM from me so I call it like inbound to outbound it's basically like how do you take people that find your

content interesting but they're not going to take the Crazy Action to book time on my calendar and how do you find those people and say like hey let's filter by every single Venture Capital fund 100 million plus with quarterly

reporting and audit requirements which is our ideal customer profile and then go like take those hundred people out of the thousand people that liked my tweet and go DM them and go book meetings from that and so that has been something

where people are focused on this like lucky come from heaven like you know they're going to come and just like show up on my doorstep to give me money we're really focused on like how do we take warmer people that know us from content

and then how do we outbound them as like a sales Le engine um I I'm happy to like dig into that more but that's something that I haven't heard people talk about before yeah you're right I haven't actually heard anyone talk about that how do you decide out of a thousand

people you know who actually like your Tweet how do you decide or determine who you're going to reach out to and what are you saying very manual um and so we basically think about we've like

productized or like it's not like a AI system it's really like human system of like taking those thousand people going to their bios saying okay that is a

venture capital fund Director of Finance at this firm that person is in our ideal customer profile okay let's go send them a DM um a few different ways in which we so that's it's Manual of like scraping

their bios and basically pulling it and saying based on those people there's a thousand maybe 25 fitter ideal customer profiles so that's like piece one in terms of filtering piece two on the copy

few different things one is I will send the tweet that they liked or interacted with to jog their memory of why I'm reaching out and so like first DM the

Tweet itself second DM is like hey saw you like my Tweeter saw you followed you know I'm doing I'm I have a hundred billion dollar Vision to take on XYZ fund admin that I don't want to mention

on this podcast do you want to do you want to chat or I'm crazy and I don't think you should pay six figures a year to not screw up your accounting we can

do XYZ want to chat so like two to three lines based on a warm connection and so that's kind of how I think about attacking it on the Tactical side that's interesting and from there how many DMS

do you think you're sending per week uh the specifically those types of DMS depends how viral it is like this is so I think this leads to so probably in the like hundred a week so it's not super high because our our ideal customer

profile we've scoped it down where it's really like a few thousand people is who we're selling into for our first 10 million in AR right it's kind of like who we're specifically thinking about um

so that's kind of Piece One Piece two on you know how I think about like ratio of content that might drive in interaction relative to like talking about Handover I think like there's two completely

opposite sides of spectrum some people if you look at their Twitter they're like I'm just going to Tweet like random things that are videos and hopefully get a lot of eyeballs that's one the second

is I'm literally going to Tweet webinar links that get no engagement that's to I try to be like a 6040 split and so I think about like 60% top of funnel

meaning Elon Musk you know hates remote work right like I think remote work is terrible and so I agree with his take and he you know that obviously got a bunch of Buzz and got a bunch of Engagement that's completely top of funnel because it's unrelated to

Handover and so 60% could be things that my deal customer profile would find interesting I am selling into Venture Capital fund GPS and directors of finance and CFOs and so that's like piece one the other 40% is like middle

or bottom of funnel and so like a middle of funnel tweet could be like you know hey I talked to a CFO a$1 billion Venture fund and what he told me was pretty crazy right and so like it's talking about what we're doing without

being like Shilling my company which I obviously love Shilling my company but it's not very compellent content um so that's kind of middle of funnel and bottom of funnel would be like Handover pitch versus Legacy fund admin pitch

like a compare contrast right which is like clearly talking about what we're doing um so that's kind of how I think about the breakdown um on our side interesting it's like you you basically have this funnel built out where it's like there's layer one which is that

split that you just defined of like you know some are super top of funnel some are middle of funnel some are like just straight up a you know a sales pitch and then everyone reacts or responds to

those viral posts of those people who respond there's like a subsect that are your ICP who you reach out to um on on your DMs and then you just get them on the phone or do you send them to a website is it a sales call do you take

it yourself what happens next I uh we have the benefit of high ticket High ACV meaning I can be the sales guy for a while and so I'm doing 100% of sales

calls right now um super focused on that because like really like trust is the only asset that matters and I only trust myself right now to to work on that um and so that's kind of like my main focus

I probably spend 70% of my time on sales related activities um and so uh that's piece one is just like get time booked 30 minute call you know understand you know give us background give us credibility and I can walk through

actually how I think about like a first call I have some pretty unique perspectives on that um and then also you know maybe a teaser of the product and then you know spend the second call walking through in detail us first star

competitors I am like the I think the typical salesperson we can dig into this if this is interesting to you they're like oh let's just like walk through the product and give you a sense I spend most of my time given I am in a crowded

Market where everyone knows what fund admin is I'm not educating people on something new I spend a lot of my time talking about why we're better than five other competitors because like that's really what the CFO is thinking or the

GP they're like why are you different than x and so I spend a lot of my time on that just to get people interested and you're you're talking about spending a lot of time on that on the call itself on the call itself it's hard to pitch it

in the DM I've tried to do that I've iterated a bunch on this I by the way I want to be more data driven I wish I could like AB test my DMs maybe that's a product for someone to build um that's definitely a product for someone to

build I mean recently we started we we built like the infrastructure to send out 50,000 cold emails a month uh for the companies that are coming through our current batch of our incubator and of those companies we're starting to see

like okay these hooks work these like lead bait magnets work so initially we were trying to get people to get on the phone and no one was or like very few people were replying now you know one of the companies that were doing this for is a design company and so they

basically redo landing pages like your typical like design firm and so their whole thing is hey I redid the main section of your header uh can I send it over for free and once someone replies like yeah absolutely you can send it

over for free then you get on the phone and then you know they're able to close them so so you know from from kind of seeing that I started realizing that like you almost need like lead bait like you need to give something for free so they feel like they're getting something

for the time of getting on the phone um we we we tried everything like hey we'll give you a Nintendo switch or an Omega you know Moon Swatch watch if you get on the phone and then people you realize quickly that people are getting on the phone because they want the thing not

because they actually care about what you're selling um but okay so it sounds like a lot of your your marketing is coming from your DMs are you guys doing anything with like ads or retargeting or uh email drip campaigns or or what are

we talking about good good question um I'm kind of like how do we condense our Focus to one or two channels until we just completely exhaust them and so instead of doing we don't do any paid

ads or anything like that today ideally for me it's like instead of putting into different channels until we completely like I know exactly the 5,000 people I'm selling to so it's like narrowest of

possible ICP and so like being able to connect with them manually on LinkedIn like we basically send a bunch of manual connection requests to people in our ICP to the limit of the LinkedIn connection request on a weekly basis and then 50%

them opt in and we can drip content into their timelines um and so like stuff like that I prefer more in putting gas on the fire of like I'd rather Post 10 times a week on LinkedIn and Twitter

than five then try retargeting or different types of techniques until we get to the point where like I feel like I've saturated Twitter and Linkedin and then our other channels cold outbound and investor intros obviously like our

investor cap table can do a ton of intros because we are selling to all of their other investors right like we're selling to venture firms um and so that that's a Channel and then traditional

cold outbound across email LinkedIn Twitter combo um which I can talk about if useful um is is kind of another Channel we think about what does that

combo look like yeah I think so it's say I let's go through a typical flow of like the inbound to outbound and I can talk about like a straight cold and so someone likes my tweet I DM them with

the tweet I DM them like a three message line I then pull their email down I send an email with the subject line Twitter DM and then I say like hey s you liked my tweet you know want to chat about this like three lines maybe build a

little bit of credibility on like who I am and why this is compelling why this is interesting then I can do the same thing where I send a LinkedIn connection request similar oh so you liked my tweet or something irrelevant maybe I like a

few of their different LinkedIn posts um to give like kind of a sense of who we are and what we're doing and so like between those three and then sending relevant follow-ups is like a good way I think to like multi thread to the point

where like I'm not going to get lost they might just be like I'm not interested don't reach out to me that's totally fine but it's better than like you sent one dm they didn't see but they actually could be an ideal customer

right so that's kind of how I think about even for the the cold emails I was talking about most of our replies come to the second follow-up email which for us is literally just hey Comma just making sure you got this question mark

and that's where all most of our replies actually come from okay I'm going to add that into our sequences I can't believe that's working by the way I I mean like I had the biggest shock basically from just like seeing how like the most like

I had to dumb it down uh for all the that we were writing cuz we realized that's actually how people respond cuz if you try to get too creative they kind of feel like they're being sold to versus like you know I feel like write like you talk is some of the most underrated piece of advice ever when it

comes to content because people try to go chat gbt and big words and make themselves sound smart everyone sees through it I uh I have a little hack that people find might valuable I I call it SSS short specific and spacing and so

when I write any cold email it's literally like if it's more than four lines throw it out specific is like it has to be tagged to them and not in a way way that's super chaty teable not

like I saw we both went to college at meist can we like like it's just so obvious that you aied this it's more like I saw this thing in what you guys are doing because you're hiring like if

I'm trying to S sell a sales tool even though I'm not I saw you guys were hiring six salese on your careers page this could be interesting because that's very specific and targeted to them and then the last thing is spacing I kind of

like to write emails like tweets and so like there should be line breaks which are easy to consume and so like those three I've kind of tried to tried to do is like the tried and true um for any sort of cold outbound interesting

interesting let's walk through one of the first calls then so imagine you're selling me right now I'm I'm a GP of a100 million Venture firm a small Venture firm let's just say that um what

is our call look like yeah two different stakeholders so it's GP versus CFO CFO actually cares about like the finance the GP is like I don't want to think about the word accounting I don't want to think about the word fund admin we're

not a fund admin for that call they hate that word whatever like that that to them is just like painful is the way I think about it and so um I usually focus on like the first thing I'll focus on is like build credibility of like who we

are because if you're talking to a startup right you're talking to a startup like us you're like can I trust them and like are they going to be around because like the key question you're asking if you're a GP is are fun

life cycles are for 10 years is this startup going to be around for the next 10 years that I can trust them with my core back office right which is like a big lift I want to trust them with my LP information all that kind kind of stuff

right and so what we do I spend most of the first five or 10 minutes kind of like building credibility on where we're at traction why we're in a durable financial position like we're break even and never need to raise money again if

we don't want to like all of those kind of things that are super valuable when you think about like durability which is kind of the first piece so I like focus on sock one compliance sock two compliance like all the trust building

exercises you know who our services team right X CFO of a $2 billion Venture fund like leads our services team so like all of those are like cred Builders and so that's kind of the first because if they don't believe that doesn't matter what

you say really at the end of the day like they're never going to consider a switch um so that's one two is I figured out who they use so I figured out like which fund admin they use right now um

if they use a legacy fund AB do I just asked them uh there's there's two different ways you either ask them or you can go to their site and see like what their investor login is some people

have that and so you know piece two is okay I go and say great which fund admin they use I have like a specific pitch for each individual one um of like what is different about us versus them how do

us Handover stack up so that's that's kind of piece two is like gather some information do some basic Discovery depending on how high level they are like obviously the general partner is not going to know about in company payables which is like a Nuance Finance

thing that we deal with right so you kind of like scope it depending on the the person and the level they are and then the last is I will spend the last 10 minutes on just the super sexy

differentiated product offerings we have not even on like core fund admin any of that kind of stuff because at the end of the day like their willingness to take the second call is really just based on how how mindblowing we are and magic

moments we can pack into the past 10 minutes the last 10 minutes and so that could be stuff like we have this AI portfolio management product where we extract out 150 key terms from a closing

set and we can populate liquidation preferences co-investors you know prata rights latest post money valuation like all that relevant stuff that like super compelling and no one else has and so

it's like oh great you can offer something so compelling no one else has and you can spend you I can spend the same amount of money I would pay my regular fund AB in or less and so that's like okay now maybe we think about taking a second call um and then the

second call is really detailed of like 45 minutes actually going through every single piece of the product that makes sense it's interesting because I I have this tweet pulled up for me that's like a recent tweet the hook was I showed up to the cfo's office at a billion dollar

Venture fund it was supposed to be a 30-minute meeting but we went for 2 hours and I left with a clear view of how CFOs make decisions and it sounds like you know number one is can I trust

you two is is it that much better three but isn't it annoying to switch and like you basically just went through that whole script yeah I think so that was a unique one that that one was supposed to be a first meeting but we ended up

having a lot of fun talking for a few hours but um I think so on I think when you sell into a CFO and look I'm not the expert at this but I'm getting better at it when you sell into a CFO it's

literally like you're selling into one of the most skep tical people right very skeptical of how legit is this how much better it is is it like there's a lot of potential objections that you're dealing

with off the bat that if you don't address them up front you've lost them forever um and so I like spending like a lot of time thinking about that um I also doing this in person is like maybe

10x or a 100 times better than doing it remote and so I'm going to be an SF for a day and meeting like six or seven people in person because like I'm asking you to get married to me basically when when you're doing this and you're doing

like a migration you don't want to get married if you've never met in person that is true I agree with that um and you have this tweet I think this is actually how I found your account in the first place which was this idea of like

always get on the plane and then it's some story of how and I think you tell the story better but basically you had a call or to meet someone and you got on the plane like six hours later or something crazy so this is funny so basically when we were starting to build

Handover think of us having almost no product and I meet this team it's like a a pretty big Finance team it's like four five people on the call I get on the call I'm like walking them through here's this crazy Vision we have this

final operating system for funds you never need to log into 50 other places it's actually super interesting because this this and this and here's all the things we're building and literally the guy looked me in the face and was like I

have no idea if you're just a good bullshitter or you guys are actually going to deliver something crazy and I was like why don't I go prove I'm not a bullshitter and I literally sent them an

email after be like I know you're not considering a switch right now we're early can I just literally get on a plane and meet you in Salt Lake City right now and can we do this and they

were like this was like seven people on the Chain they're were like sure but we're not switching anytime soon I was like great I don't care I'm in this for 25 years and so I get on the plane and

meet them with basically nothing prepared no product uh and now that's turned into a decent opportunity I won't say what the end result is because there is no result yet but um it's been I

basically am like I will do whatever it takes to win and I know this sounds harsh and hardcore but I am like whatever it takes to win I will do whatever plan I need to get on I will do because I know my competitors probably

won't do that they're like big bloated companies that work at 9et to-5 and so it's kind of like one of our advantages that we might have that's awesome and you have a lot of tweets also that kind of went viral recently around like how

to build a company uh that is like kind of fun to work at and that's also something I've been thinking about a lot recently um cuz once you have your go to market figured out once you have a little bit of money raised then it's down to the people right the cliche of

you don't build a company you build people and the people build the company and you've kind of talked online about how you have this culture of people are at the office until like 11: p.m. on a

Friday and it's exciting um so what does your team kind of like set up as right now yeah let me tell you about hours hardcore work life balance I think there's a lot of stuff there so one is first call I screen people out like if

you want a ninet to five don't join I think that's pretty obvious we work think like 9:00 a.m. standup to like 8:30 9:00 p.m. and and so it's like a 12-hour day but we're not in the office

at 1:00 a.m. the reason why we don't do that is because it burns people out really quickly and then everyone shows up the office at 10:00 a.m. the next day and so you're actually like net net not more productive and so like think about

it as like consistent intensity is kind of what we go for right we eat dinner as a team at 5:00 P PM we leave the office by 8:30 900 p.m. every day um five days a week and then remote on Sunday is kind

of How We Do It um so 5 days a week hardcore in the office do some remote work half a day on Sunday um however you might be like that sounds like a lot of

hours Chris you're working 65 70 hours a week that's pretty insane is everyone just like hate their lives and not having fun actually on the contrary people have the most fun they've ever worked in

their entire life and the way we do it is like we do a lot of things around every time someone ships something that's super exciting we all literally do like a demo night where we'll like literally all pull up to their computer

and like see what they built and talk through it play music r a Gong after they've shipped the thing when we come into stand up in the morning at 9:00 a.m. I'm playing like random song from

a.m. I'm playing like random song from 2007 that people are fired up by you know we eat dinner as a team together we're like the environment and the energy is like we're building something

that we believe will be a massive generational company right here's the opportunity we're four blocks from the New York Stock Exchange we have pretty big Ambitions here's the massive opportunity you're going to get ultimate

alltimely and work on like the hardest stuff of your entire life and save and you know solve hard techn technical challenges what's more fun than doing that what's not more fun sitting on Netflix and like watching and eating ice

cream at 7:00 p.m. on Tuesday night you know that's a kind of that's the kind of vibe and kind of culture we try to build it's interesting because I feel like when you put it that way it's like oh I want to join your company now right like you make it sound exciting I'm sure

people are going to watch this and recently I've I've started seeing this trend of someone will come on the podcast and they'll tell me like two days later that they got like 10 inbounds of people that they might hire now which is great I hope that happens

for better you're an AI engineer who wants to solve hard technical challenges Chris at hanover. but okay keep going but like when you're starting to set that up before you let's say before you

have the office or you've just got your office you have like four five six people on the team what is the first thing that you need to solve or what is the first thing that you create because you don't go from like remote team or

newly hired team to we have a Gong and we have this music and standups and people are ready to stay till 8:30 like how do you convince the first person or the second person that you're going to be here till like 9:00 p.m. every single

day it's just going to be you and me exactly okay so few things one is it starts with the right co-founder and so my co-founder he's like hard core engineer you know coding since he was 10

years old you know what was a ycx YC founder CTO before has like done the zero to one before and he literally was like we set the tone from day one that he's always first in the office because

he's like he shows up at like 7:30 I'm almost always last in the office and like it sets from us that if like to me it's insane to ask someone to stay late

or come in early when the founders themselves are you know leaving at 5:00 p.m. and so it's like set the tone I

p.m. and so it's like set the tone I must be working harder than anyone else on the team or I couldn't expect that of anyone else and so it's like back it up with like actually executing and

delivering I think is the first part um and then once you get the right one or two people in on the boat that just are like this is the way it is we're filtering people out specifically for this then it's like it's kind of a self-

selection process you know we we're not interviewing anyone on the second round that wouldn't find this fun got it okay that makes sense and do you expect everyone that you hired to kind of do the crazy things like I have another

tweet pulled up right now which is um about you sleeping over at your clients or a potential customers's office during a migration yeah that's funny I I mean this was kind of a it was it was

partially joke I literally emailed uh one of the founders of this of the firm that I'm that I'm trying to work with and I was basically like I will part of this I like crazy energy of like when

you choose us you're not just choosing some fund admin you're choosing like a crazy person who will die or deliver the results to you and some people like that some people hate that to be to be honest

some people find it funny some people hate it so like for me it's like I need to do whatever it takes just like I need to be the last one in the office at night I need to be like the person who will do the crazy stretch to like get a

sale done or I can't expect my engineer you know who joined a week ago to be like oh yeah it's okay if I don't ship it till tomorrow it's okay if I like wait 3 days to ship this why would I ask

someone that I wouldn't do something myself and so I like I take a lot of inspo and I I he's so like obviously everyone knows you know he's he's almost a meme at this point but like Elon sleeping in the factory you know during

the Tesla push yeah that like why do you think people are feel comfortable working crazy hard at xai and working till 2:00 in the morning it's because they know

like elon's not clocking out at 5: that makes sense that makes sense awesome Frank slutman the greatest operator who's never been a Founder in the entire he's like the anti founder mode but the

original founder mode is kind of how I think about him so he um Frank s is due from Europe literally was the CEO of service now uh and the CEO of snowflake and so basically yes yes okay I know I

know you're like who is that yeah who is that guy uh I've he basically wrote this book it was a Blog poster in book called amp it up where the entire idea is like the job of a CEO is to seek

confrontation because you need to increase the intensity of the organization or everyone will default to let's just schedule a meeting for two weeks from next Tuesday instead of like let's schedule a meeting for tonight at

900 p.m right just like in terms of like

900 p.m right just like in terms of like cycle speed and and compression of timelines and so I love him he's probably like my favorite operator

because I think like he won in like a competitive sales Le hyper intense place and he like built a culture even as a non-founder which is

like he didn't he didn't start snowflake he came in and like somehow like built the respect built the culture built the velocity built the tempo speed and was obsessed with like growth at all costs um and so I don't know I like them I

think there's a lot of things like I take his inso from him what are some other things so there's this idea um of timeline compression which I mentioned

before and so timeline compression is like and you can almost think about as like it's married to like veloc of execution if you've ever scheduled a meeting with someone and they're like hey you know great to be connected are

you free you know we're recording this on December 10th 2024 are you free on January 15th at 700 p.m Eastern to chat you're literally like I never want to

talk to you again do you know why because we waited 30 plus Days of Our Lives to figure out if there was something interesting here and look I get people are jammed in terms of schedule but if you can't schedule someone in like within a few days or a

week either you don't want the meeting badly enough or you don't want it badly enough right and so what what Frank always talks about is he's like people who try to schedule things two weeks out and he's like why can't we do it tonight why

can't we have this deliverable tomorrow what are the and like that is an uncomfortable conversation for people that just like want to go through their lives and do things do the bare minimum um and so I I think a lot about that for

like what we do it's so easy to be like oh it's okay like we'll just do it three days from now no I need to like fight against that basically the inertia um and so I think a lot about that like

every day interesting very kind of boring question but I'm personally interested by it when you're looking at these like very compressed timelines what does it look like when on a Monday or a Friday when you're planning out the

week or looking back at the week and figuring out tasks great question this is not boring at all I actually spend a lot of time so Sundays are my like week of I call it like week of product week

of content like week of sales right and so I work hours every Sunday basically like on like core tasks so every single person

on the team is unblocked showing up they might have like a little bit of work on a Sunday doing a specific thing but like when we have standup on Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. everyone needs to be crystal clear on what we're shipping

this week and so what I do tactically is we use linear which is great um to like basically write up like project level specs if it's like a net new project or like cut a bunch of different linear

tickets related to that project with like detailed thought on like what exactly are we shipping why are we shipping this and why is it useful to ship and why is this the highest

resource why is this the highest and best use of engineering resource time and so I spend like a ridiculous amount of time thinking about that every single week and then I'll sync up my co-founder on just like realistically what are the timelines that we can think about of

like is this a one-day project or a three-day project and after talking to him so much I have like a pretty good sense of what is the engineering time um to actually deliver something and so I spend a lot of time on that and then I I

put everything through this one filter and this is very Handover specific but other people can take info from it um the filter is will this engineering time

do one of two things either reduce our services cost meaning it's automating accounting work that we need humans to do right now and overtime AI overtime

deterministic stuff or two Andor two win us more sales if it's not doing one of those two things I have failed by selecting that as a project ideally it's doing both

things right and so that's kind of the core of every single filter on product side if that's useful that makes sense that is that's interesting while we're talking about systems when you have these like 100 different sales campaigns

going out every single week essentially how are you tracking them are you using like HubSpot I use everything so I'm HubSpot CRM I use Apollo um I actually if you're a company that's building this

DM me please um I am looking for like a better system around how I manage the inbound to outbound because there's actually not a lot of Tools around like dealing with oh here are the people that

engage let's scrape the Twitter profile the Twitter API is not very good okay how do we take that and then how do we enrich that into our CRM and how do we do that and then how do we like pull in like the instantly warmly unified GTM

equivalent for whatever is on my website visitors so like I am not I think I'm like a c right now or maybe worse C minus on like top tier systemization on

inbound outbound website visitors and social interactions and then turning that into an outbound pipeline I think I'm like midcycle deal like I I've run a sales pipeline through through HubSpot a

bunch and so that's probably fine gotcha and then when you're when you're kind of planning out like your next three months or your next like Sprint or your next uh you know longer period of Time how are you determining what you guys work on I

I love this framework so emit cheer he's the CEO he was used to be the CE of twitch he used to be the CEO of open AI for like two days uh and then he's also a Yale guy that got a chance to interview back in college and so I I

know him a little bit and basically he has this idea of however long the company is old is the max amount of time you should consider planning in the future and so if your company is one

week old you better not be planning more than one week ahead if you're three months old you better not be planning more than three months Etc right and so I actually like I know exactly where we

want to be in five years exactly where we want to be I know exactly the ideal customer profile today how we get to 10 how we get to 100 million AR how do we get to a billion AR and what are all the different paths and things that we could

think about for that and what do we need to build today to put us in a position to execute on the fiveyear vision that I'm crystal clear on I'm also crystal clear on the next week okay here's what we need to ship here's what we need to

do here's something we need to think about maybe like the next one to two weeks but I don't plan in like thre Monon increments or six Monon at all I just think like got it things change too quickly for what we're doing that like I

don't want to constrain ourselves CU every single day think about me like getting more data from potential customers and learning what they want and then iterating on product road map based on that absolutely that makes sense and so the question I ask at the

end of every episode is if we were to do this podcast again in a year what would you have to achieve till then to consider it a success what a question this is a it's actually funny I'm going to toss this in

as an Easter egg a reference check question that I do that people should steal when I'm interviewing and doing a reference check is hey assume this person quitter got fired and I called you back in 12 months from now why would

that be just toss that in at the end that is by the way you get some D you get some gold by the way from that question um I toss that in but um what

would I want in the next 12 months uh bleep I'm not going to tell you what Revenue that I want by then but there's a there's a pretty big Target and then two um I would say like March to 10 billion in in assets under

Administration is the is the simple version awesome well we'll see you again in a year all right see you Omar this is fun thanks for coming on