How to Write Something Truly Beautiful — Alain de Botton

you've written so so many books and then also with the school of life I mean gez almost 10 million YouTube subscribers and as I was thinking about what is it that you're doing what is it that gives

you joy as a writer for yourself but also kind of a sense of relief for us as the viewer on a school of life video or as a reader it's this joy of capturing

sensations and emotions and words you know so much of the world is um it's not concrete and writing makes it concrete and by doing that gives us

clarity, gives us peace, whatever it is.

That's beautiful. I think you've got it there. Let's end it there.

there. Let's end it there.

End of the podcast.

Uh I mean, yes, it's it is all about I mean I think two things interest me in particular. Pain and pleasure. Um so

particular. Pain and pleasure. Um so

anything that is painful, I want to put words to it. Anything is very beautiful, I want to put words to it. It is about capturing and to use a slightly strange word controlling the experience,

controlling pain in order to lessen it, controlling beauty in order to keep a hold on something that is fugitive. And

the idea is that you know the more the more I can do I mean it's it's broadly therapeutic. It's it's um it's why

therapeutic. It's it's um it's why people journal. I mean I I began as a

people journal. I mean I I began as a writer as a teenager trying to master emotions that felt bigger than me. Uh I

felt uh a basic sense of relief which has not changed to this day uh at turning an emotion into an idea at at

putting words to feelings. Um and they just lessen um and that that brings enormous relief. So I think you can

enormous relief. So I think you can divide humanity into what people do with their pain. Some people drink their pain

their pain. Some people drink their pain away. Some people talk their pain away.

away. Some people talk their pain away.

Some people exercise their pain away.

Some people achieve their pain away and some people want to write it away and I'm one of those and it is all about processing you might say difficult

feelings. So I wrote my first book which

feelings. So I wrote my first book which in the United States was called on love and in the uh many other parts of the world was called essays in love and that

was an attempt to understand sensations around love that had basically been very painful um and mysterious and I gained

relief and in a rather sort of magical process you know it ended up in the hands of other people who would say things like how did you know that about me.

Wow.

And of course, I would say, I have no idea about you, but I'm just keeping a track of me. And uh, you know, if I'm doing that faithfully, then it may have an echo in somebody else. And, you know,

it is it's very strange how that happens. You know, sometimes people say

happens. You know, sometimes people say to me, what research have you done? You

know, what what what's your uh what's your authority base? Like what are you what are you claiming this on?

And I go, you know, just empirical observation of me. Um, and I think that all of us are this incredible library of sensations, this incredible data source.

And so often, particularly in the academic world, the feeling is let's let's ignore ourselves as a source of data. Let's go and find out what Cicero

data. Let's go and find out what Cicero said, what Socrates said or what Michel Fuko said. And well, you know, that

Fuko said. And well, you know, that could be helpful. Far better to mine your own mind, but there's not much encouragement for that. The whole school

system is based on trying to get you to find out what other people thought rather than going into what you might think.

Yeah. So,

what do you do when you there's like a sort of pain or a emotion that you're just grappling with and you can't quite quite quite name it. You

know that there's something there cuz I've always struggled to feel my emotions. Uh this has been a lot of what

emotions. Uh this has been a lot of what I've learned over the last five years in particular. I've really struggled with

particular. I've really struggled with it. And so a lot of

it. And so a lot of writing for me and actually the pain of writing is to almost force myself to feel the thing and to really feel the thing and to stop the resistance and

then to somehow name the thing is to constrain the thing.

And once you've constrained it now you can look at it as almost an object that's separate from you.

Uh but it's remarkably painful. So, how

do you how do you do that?

I mean, partly, you know, there's definitely a moment when certain feelings are not ready to be turned into literature, into words. It's not ready.

It's not cooked. And and partly that has to do with one not understanding what it is sufficiently. Uh, and after all, you

is sufficiently. Uh, and after all, you know, a piece of pros has to obey certain rules of coherence. You have to be able to understand it well enough to

put yourself in the shoes of somebody who doesn't know it. You know, you have to be able to introduce a stranger to a feeling. And in order to do that, you

feeling. And in order to do that, you have to know it a little bit, you know, yourself. Um, so let me give you an

yourself. Um, so let me give you an example. Yeah. So, um

example. Yeah. So, um

I So, I'm writing again about love at the moment and for maybe three weeks or so I was I was toying around with it. I saw a couple in

a restaurant and they were having a lovely meal and it was summertime in London and they looked really happy and I had a thought and the thought was if

their relationship breaks down it's an evening like this that will cost them both dear or one of them dear this will be a locust of pain let's say the man is abandoned or the

woman's aband you know they will return to that oh that lovely meal when we when the future looked beautiful when you know etc I became interested in right

how does a pleasurable experience later turn into a nightmare and observing my own life I've seen how much when a relationship breaks down you don't

really sit around lamenting the argument that you had or the you know the bad times about their sibling or whatever it is you really your mind turns towards

the beautiful times that holiday you took that that amazing walk you took, you know, one evening, whatever. These

are the moments of pain when it's beautiful.

And and I thought, isn't it, it's a sort of dark thought. It's it's the beautiful things that are storing up cost that the the pleasurable participant isn't yet

fully aware of. I mean, it's it's really the ideology of mourning and loss. You

you only lose what's beautiful and good.

Therefore, while achieving anything beautiful and good, if you're a wiser, older person, you thinking, wow, this is what I'm going to need to maybe have to

pay for later on. So, anyway, these thoughts were in my head, but for a while they were tangled and couldn't really whatever. And then yesterday, it

really whatever. And then yesterday, it all came to me. And often it does come in a sort of moment of like, right, this is cooked. This is bubbling. This is

is cooked. This is bubbling. This is

this is a boiling point. And I was looking through my notes and thought, okay, I I know this this is like a little essay on the debt that um we may have to pay for

our pleasures, you know. So it emerge as a little piece. Um and but I say that's a journey from fragments to something

more more complete. You have to be able to to name it and see it. You because as you were hinting sometimes you don't know what it is. You don't know what a feeling is. You don't know where it

feeling is. You don't know where it belongs. where in if you imagine a giant

belongs. where in if you imagine a giant library, our minds are giant libraries and they've got an index system and a stack system, but uh sometimes you you get some words and you think I don't

know what the book is. I don't know where it would go on the stacks. I don't

know, you know, and it takes a while and then eventually you you find a location for it in your in your intellectual world view. You got to tell me about

world view. You got to tell me about that word fragments. Fragments.

Fragments. Because I think that that's where so much of writing starts is fragments.

Absolutely. And I think it should start.

I think that novice writers often get this wrong.

They say things like, I, you know, I just don't know where to start with my book. I don't know, you know, I don't know what the story is, etc. And I always say, look, I compare it to archaeology. In archaeology, you

come across a little broken bit of a pot. And you know that there's other

pot. And you know that there's other bits of the pot. they're going to be somewhere in the area and you have to dig through the dirt to assemble them and find them and then and then assemble

them into a plausible pattern. And you

have to go right and you know my first thought is this what what's the next bit that it could fit into and it takes a long while like like archaeology like

archaeological sort of reconstitution it takes a while and uh one can panic and think I never get this um but I

think that many books start with an image of thought fragmented idea um you know if I think of certain books they

literally began man with half a scene and I thought right what's you know I'm working on a book now and

I just have an image of a man emerging from a uh visit to a dental hygienist in Wimpol Street in London. He's gone there

in a moment of some despair and um inner turmoil and he's had his teeth cleaned and he's emerging into the street.

Anyway, I'm slowly assembling bits and bits will come from all over and be marshal by that scene. But it's like a powerful magnet that draws in filaments from from elsewhere. But for a long time, you you know, the magnet is not

switched on and so the filaments are just lying around. So, no one thinks in book terms. I mean, a book is an

arbitrary construction dictated by the book industry. Um, it's, you know, a

book industry. Um, it's, you know, a certain number of words, it's glued together, blah blah blah. No one thinks in terms of books. We think in

sentences, images, fragments, etc. And gradually we may end up with this thing called a book. But it's always a slightly artificial construction. Which

is why I've also, you know, I began by being interested in apherisms, huh, maxims, you know, the tradition of like, you know, the short pathy the original tweets, right? The original tweets. And I

right? The original tweets. And I

remember this 17th century character, French character, Laros Fuku. Do you

know him?

No. Luko who wrote this book called the maxims in the 17th century and this a beautiful book it must be it's about 200 fragments. Let me give you an example.

fragments. Let me give you an example.

To say one never flirts is itself a form of flirtation. Um another one is there

of flirtation. Um another one is there are some people who would never have fallen in love if they hadn't heard there was such a thing. Another one is we all have strength enough to bear the

misfortunes of others. And I remember reading this book thinking I love this.

It's not a novel. It's not a biography.

It's not a poem. It's like a psychological, as the French would say, aeru, a little glimpse of a truth.

And it's two lines long. Great.

Yeah.

And that's how I began writing. I wrote

a whole selection of apherisms for friends at university and we would sort of laugh and, you know, some of them some of them were about people that we'd know.

They are funny, right? I mean,

Shakespeare said, "Brevity is the soul of wit, right?"

And like there there's kind of a wit and a humor in a in an apherism, a maxim.

Yeah. So, so that's what I like. But

I've always found as a writer, I've always found it really hard to fit into a pre-existing form. So, my books tend to be quite odd. I mean, I wrote a book called The Course of Love.

Well, real quick before you get there, I think you're saying something really profound, which is, you know, there's that stupid line. It's like, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. How

do you write a book? One sentence at a time. Like, it's fine to just think in

time. Like, it's fine to just think in sentences and paragraphs and stories.

you don't you got the big giant thing I mean let alone like I want to be a writer you know so so often you get blocked by the identity of that giant thing and also you know the fact that most nowadays you know I mean for a long time

if to be a writer is to write a certain kind of genre the novel has hugely dominated our sense of what it means to be a writer and also not just the novel but a

certain kind of novel um a certain still based on the 19th century narrative structure of characters in a realistic setting uh where the narrator, the narrative voice is essentially offstage. It's a

kind of disembodied voice telling you what everybody's thinking. You don't

really know who this person is, who this voice is, but it's kind of taking you through a story. Um action over reflection, etc. And I remember thinking, this is not for me. I don't

like this kind of book. I mean, I kind of like it, but I don't love it. It's

not deadon, course. And it took me a while to discover certain kinds of books that I really liked. So um the Czech writer Milan Kundara was extremely

important for me um the book of laughter and forgetting uh and the unbearable lightness of being and also his book the art of the novel

immensely significant texts that seemed to have an incredible freedom. Um they

were messing around with the rules. Um

he would tell a bit of a story Candera and then stop and give you like a reflection on you know tonal music and Beethoven and then there'd be another bit of narrative and then there'd be a

kind of reflection on three words uh from a dictionary and you're thinking wow why not and this opened up a whole horizon it's like a collage

yeah yeah in this I was also really inspired by paintings and certain kind of modern artists and I thought you know people like Joseph Cornell, Sai

Twambbley, um Robert Rousenberg, um Agnes Martin, uh Cristo, these are all people who in different ways in different media were messing it about

and just I don't know it seemed to have a certain kind of sensibility and um yeah, so so that was that was important.

Um and and you know I ended up writing I've ended up writing books that don't really quite fit. So I've written uh

a couple of novels as I said essays in love and um the course of love which are picking up from where you know very inspired by Kera in the sense of a

mixture of narrative and psychological analysis. Um

analysis. Um and and then I've written I don't know collages of things. I've written books that rely heavily on images. Um, I'm

very interested in using pictures in intriguing ways so that the text and the picture are bouncing off each other. How

do you think about what it means to live like a writer? You know, when you are a writer, so little of the work actually happens with your fingers pecking at a

keyboard. So much of the work happens

keyboard. So much of the work happens when you're thinking, whether you're in the shower, whether you're on a walk, whether you're traveling.

Yeah.

How do you think about that, which is actually the majority of the work in terms of time?

Um, I think it's paradoxical.

It it, you know, takes it takes writers to me a long time to realize, you know, if I'm not doing anything at 9:00 in the morning on a Monday when most sensible people are, you know, gearing up for

really intense stuff, doesn't matter.

the the really good work could be happening on a Sunday night at 4:00 a.m.

and you know real work as you say is feeling thinking and it may not happen in the standard places. So I was always like a good boy who wanted to be you

know beautiful member of society and and I'd think I've got to sit at my desk. I

can't go to the park. But now I think well if the park is where you might think go for it. If going on holiday is the place where you might think. Um P

has this P by the way who I love Marcusel Puce the great French novelist wrote this really weird book called In Search of Lost Time which is again a

mixture of essay novel and I don't know disquisition on the meaning of life.

It's philosophy book really. He mixed it all up when he was talking about creativity. He said uh if you want to

creativity. He said uh if you want to recommend somebody to have insights into life and you could give them a magical choice between meeting a great mind like

Plato or Daycart for an evening or going out he's having a sexist heterosexual assumptions with a woman who will make him suffer. We know who that that person

him suffer. We know who that that person should spend the evening with the woman who will make him suffer. He had this particular view that suffering come back to what we was talking about pain. He

had the view that suffering is the great catalyst of insight. Uh and therefore if you want to get some material suffer and we know this we know this from music

right think of the the breakup the great breakup albums. Think of you know I don't know uh Bob Dylan Blood on the tracks that's a breakup album. Think of

Phil Collins Face Value breakup albums. Great bits of music that emerging out of pop music but also classical music. Um

it's always breakup. There's something

about being you know torn apart that you know the good writing is partly

um on the side of madness, death, dislocation, chaos and just otherness.

Um if if things are going well for you, you you unite with the world. You you

feel kinship with the way things are.

you're not a rebel or a revolutionary or a tragic figure. You

you you quite like the way the world is because it's it's doing good things for you right?

But when you're desperate, you you want to kill yourself. You want

to jump out of the window. You want to I'm just being autobiographical. Uh you

you you know, you're not on the side of you're run you're reading life against the grain. And in those moods, you're

the grain. And in those moods, you're more likely to kind of find the great truths that are that are outside of the

normal satisfied smug perfume.

Well, let me add one thing to that. I

also think that there are the places where reason disappears and when reason disappears and sort of the the the emotion or almost the animal within us

take over. We often I mean we escaped

take over. We often I mean we escaped preconceived language, right? Like if

you get really mad at someone like you're just freaking angry and you're yelling at them.

Yeah. You will say things that you've never said before that you've been feeling that have been deep deep deep deep deep down that all of a sudden have come out.

Yeah.

And a lot of when writing feels trit or contrived, it's cuz you're kind of rearranging other words and thoughts that other people have given you or that you've kind of had in the past. Yeah.

And in suffering and in anger and in sadness and grief, it's the times when the way that we've always done things or conventional wisdom, whatever it is, just disappears and boom, like the

animal within us comes out.

That's right. In a way, you kind of have to have nothing left to lose. You don't

give a anymore. You say, "Fuck this." And you just and you're just

this." And you just and you're just there. You're there with certain truths.

there. You're there with certain truths.

And because you've you've given up lying, deceiving or sentimental reassurance, etc. And so there is, you know, the great works of literature do

often have a relationship to desperation in some way. That could could be driven by death. You know, the again the sense

by death. You know, the again the sense of like your your time's coming up now.

You know, you got anything left to say?

Have you you know, is there something you still want to tell us? Something

that you didn't dare before? You know,

it's Yeah.

Good thinking is someone says right good thinking is good feeling. But what good feeling is is not caring to subscribe to the kind of

normal bromides that um that we live by.

Well, it hit me the other day actually as I was preparing for this that you know sometimes you'll read a somebody's writing and be like wow I really want to write like that and then you realize that actually you can't just write like that. In order to write like that, you

that. In order to write like that, you have to think like that. In order to think like that, you have to live like that.

Live like that. And actually, that's where it begins.

Yeah. That's right. That's right. And

you know, look, there are certain kind of cliched images of the writer in a black cape escaping bourgeoa society, etc. We're not talking necessarily these kind of cliches. You could be wearing a t-shirt from wherever. It's not it's not

the outward signs. It's it's where your soul is. Um, I also think, you know,

soul is. Um, I also think, you know, writing is an act of communication between people and if your communication is just brilliant with the people around

you and in your life, what's the point of writing? Um, it, you know,

of writing? Um, it, you know, loneliness, a loneliness of experience is also absolutely key. Um, a sense that no one understands. Um, a lot of writing

begins with a a sense no one around me understands. I mean, if we think about

understands. I mean, if we think about it, what is writing? It's,

you know, Socrates was quite good on this. Socrates's view was, you know, we

this. Socrates's view was, you know, we shouldn't write books because books are books were born out of a despair at intrahuman communication. And he

intrahuman communication. And he optimistically thought that, you know, the way to do writing, the way to do philosophy was not to write it down, but to get a group of people in a in a dialogue. That's what you should do. And

dialogue. That's what you should do. And

you know he was perhaps living at a time when living in a small uh amazing city at a golden Asian you know he could have those conversations but for for many of us we can't have conversations so we

become writers because no one's listening and no one's speaking properly and so there's that basic kind of you know Freud has this word sublimation to

describe the origins of artistic activity it's like the artist sublimates the artist is faced with a particularly acute version of all the dilemas that afflict people. The conflict between

afflict people. The conflict between duty and pleasure, the conflict between life and death, between money and creativity, you know, all these conflicts. But Freud saw the artist as

conflicts. But Freud saw the artist as especially disturbed and compromised by them. And

the artistic work arising as a as a way of reconciling fantasy and reality. It's

like the world can't be as you'd wish it to be. One option is to kill yourself or

to be. One option is to kill yourself or go mad and the other option is to create a work of art. So the work of art is like the best thing you can do with your

dislocation and distress. It is an alternative to as it were in a broad sense losing your mind. You focusing

your mind when it's complete loss and disintegration is in the air.

Yeah. Yeah, you have me thinking about pleasure and pain and how sometimes in a moment when things when I'm riding high, it's like, wow, we get to live in this world and there's so many different things that we can explore and people we

get to meet and places we get to go.

It's all so vast and infinite and magical. And then in the moments of pain

magical. And then in the moments of pain and the the there's just a tragedy of it all. It's like you get this one life and

all. It's like you get this one life and you're just stuck on this dang thing and uh h how am I going to cope with this?

Right. Right. Sure. And I mean, you know, almost every life, let's just say every life has moments of severe distress. I mean, you'd have to be

distress. I mean, you'd have to be extremely unimaginative not to quite regularly run into or just very lucky to not to regularly run into quite a lot of distress. I mean, if you think about,

distress. I mean, if you think about, you know, here we are living in a privileged West. So, we're not even

privileged West. So, we're not even talking about, you know, some of the more egregious events that can come from the outside. If we're just talking

the outside. If we're just talking about, you know, life in a relatively peaceful, relatively prosperous, well-ordered society, which already is an amazing achievement, um, you're going

to hit so many problems. Someone you love will not love you first. Big

problem you're going to hit. um or

someone's going to love you but not in the way that feels right or there's going to be a conflict between betray two people or someone's going to betray you. you know, already welcome to, you

you. you know, already welcome to, you know, Ian's of suffering. Um, then

there's going to be a difficulty somewhere along the line between your sense of who you are, how you want to be seen, um, and how others see you. You

know, you will be misard, misrepresented, etc. There's going to be then there's going to be a conflict around money and status and achievement.

there's going to be something about a pool between money's here but fame is there, happiness is there, respectability, whatever some kind of cont. already before knowing anything

cont. already before knowing anything about someone. You can look at a baby in

about someone. You can look at a baby in their cradle and you think the person's going to hit these walls and um and that's before anything major has gone

wrong. And you know talk to anyone over

wrong. And you know talk to anyone over well say anyone over 30 anyone over 40 definitely anyone over 50 you know you're going to find evidence of these

incredible scars. Um and it's from this

incredible scars. Um and it's from this that I think is born our receptivity to the arts. I mean, if you look at Van

the arts. I mean, if you look at Van Go's irises, the man was in pieces. The

man was suffering like, you know, a religious saint. He was a very, very

religious saint. He was a very, very unhappy man. Poor thing. He was lonely.

unhappy man. Poor thing. He was lonely.

He was desperate. He was misunderstood.

He achd for love. He was he was just so alone. And you know, it sounds crazy.

alone. And you know, it sounds crazy.

Vincent Van Go, one of the most famous people of the uh 19th century, uh was absolutely abject and desperate. And

when he looks at flowers, he's not just telling you about a flower. He's telling

you about a flower seen through the lens of agony. And when you look at beauty

of agony. And when you look at beauty through the lens of agony, it becomes something slightly different. It becomes

a life raft. Like the guy's not just painting a flower. He's painting like a last reason to live. And you know in the end he didn't make it. Um but you know

and that's what lends the kind of poignency. So some of the most beautiful

poignency. So some of the most beautiful things that humans have created have been born out of um a kind of negotiation with something appalling.

Yeah. It's really you know it's easy to think wow I want to produce something beautiful.

But the image that came to mind as you were talking is like two sides of a rubber band. It's like as you stretch

rubber band. It's like as you stretch the pain on one side, you almost get the beauty on the other side. And it's quite hard to create something that's truly

beautiful and astonishing. It's almost

as if it requires a kind of sacrifice.

Not just a sacrifice in work ethic, but a sacrifice in terms of what we've been through in order to get there or something.

Sure. But, you know, again, let's not go and hunt out that stuff. It'll come to you. It'll come to you. Just sit still.

you. It'll come to you. Just sit still.

Anyone who's sitting there going, "Oh, when's that great suffering?" Just like, you know, Don't worry. Life's cooking

catch. That's a good catch.

You know, Agnes Martin, do you know the painter Agnes Martin? Abstract artist.

Amazing. She just does lines across abstract things. And I read about her

abstract things. And I read about her life. Her life is so full of pain. She

life. Her life is so full of pain. She

had a kind of psychiatric disorder. She

lived in New Mexico on her own. And she

just makes these beautiful regular canvases that are just trying to hold on to basic order and stability in a chaotic world. And they're so moving again because you sense the opposite of

what the painting is. Just like those beautiful flowers of Van Go. You s you know that there's something opposed to that as you say the rubber band the other side of it.

Tell me about things that you love and hate because what you said that I thought was so beautiful is that you're not just inspired by beauty and wisdom but also inspired by ugliness and cruelty.

Yeah.

I'd never heard somebody say that before.

I mean, let's just think of the visual.

Um, London, a city where we're in, has got some really ugly parts, like like like all big cities, like all modern cities. And

cities. And why are they so ugly? What on earth's gone wrong? Like, how can how can humans

gone wrong? Like, how can how can humans build beautifully in one place and time and then when there's when the world's even richer and more resources, they suddenly build in a really ugly way?

What is going on? It's it's in a visual form a translation of the kind of dumbness of the human animal. And um it enraged me and I wrote a book called the

architecture of happiness which was an attempt to think about buildings. And um

but it was born of living in a horrible part of London. Not a beautiful part of London. Um if I'd lived in a beautiful

London. Um if I'd lived in a beautiful city, I mean London is beautiful in parts but small parts. It was an ugly part of London. and I wrote it because I couldn't bear the circumstances in which I was living and I just thought this is

so unnecessary. So that that kind of got

so unnecessary. So that that kind of got me going but but but that's a visual example and there are psychological examples too. Um so you know

examples too. Um so you know mean-mindedness sentimentality cruelty, humiliation, these things I want to protest against, I want to make

a stand against. Um I want to get revenge against a lot of writing is about revenge. Let's face it, it's about

about revenge. Let's face it, it's about revenge. Um, what do I mean by revenge?

revenge. Um, what do I mean by revenge?

You know, the silenced person who gets to have their say on the page. I mean,

you know, a lot of writers are quite meek in person. You meet them and you think, "Oh, it wouldn't hurt a fly." And

you pick up the text. Wow.

Um, you know, they're doing it because they're not so good at, you know, hitting back on in life, but they're very, you know, it all comes out on the

page. Um, so there are people who don't

page. Um, so there are people who don't believe in you. There are people who don't understand you. There are people who trample on you, etc. And to say

here's a book, you know, um, look at look at how who books are dedicated to.

They're fascinating. It's not just beloved ones, it's often hated ones, the ones you didn't believe, etc. So yeah, writing as revenge, writing as cure,

writing as memorial, you know, all these under lots of different headings we could we could write about what writing is.

Um, what's so cool about the written word is that it is I think the closest the way that we can best translate our consciousness state of sort of what's

going on. And

going on. And one of the things that I found particularly interesting about your process is that sometimes at the end of the day you'll kind of come home and

you'll download thoughts and ideas. And

I had this image of like the different levels of consciousness.

There's like, hey, what do you think about right now? Hey, what did you think about today? But over time, as you kind

about today? But over time, as you kind of just sit there in stillness and you just jot down ideas, you realize there's all these layers. And um

the first thoughts that we have when somebody asks what are we thinking about actually often doesn't even capture the core thing that we are thinking about.

I mean you know it's not just words that do this um music obviously musical notes absolutely do it arguably if you said to people you know would you rather have an

amazing facility at music or at words I want to say that most of us would choose music. there is something

choose music. there is something extraordinarily direct. You know, music

extraordinarily direct. You know, music is the the motions of the soul with the minimal um intervention, you know, which is why music speaks across the ages,

speaks across cultures, etc. It is it is the language of the soul and um and therefore has this extraordinary power. You know, would you rather have

power. You know, would you rather have written hey Jude or you know, war and peace?

You want you want Hey Jude. Of course

you want Hey Jude in a way, don't you think? I don't know. We're trying this

think? I don't know. We're trying this out. We're trying this out.

out. We're trying this out.

Yeah. I don't know. Um that's a that's an interesting conversation.

And and you know to some extent uh also visual language, the language of painting uh again to translate the movements of the soul into a visual.

Wow. Would you have rather painted the cyine chapel written Hey Jude or written war in peace? I don't know. That'd be a fun bar conversation.

Yeah, that would be wouldn't it? That

would be I mean Systeine Chapel doesn't do it for me but um but there are other paintings Van Go's Irises.

Yeah.

I mean because I can do writing I'm naturally attracted to doing something I can't do. So I I do envy the song makers and and and the artists. Um

but maybe if I was a song maker or an artist I'd admire the the writers. Yeah.

So I don't know. I guess when it comes to writing, the reason I say that point about consciousness is like when I read David Foster Wallace, I feel like I'm putting on his glasses and stepping into

his brain in a way that no other medium can quite do. Now, a painting can show me how somebody is seeing something.

Music can make me feel something deeply.

And you're right, I can feel what the contents of their soul. But writing is unique for the contents of the mind.

Look, we need all of these things. We

need all these things. I mean, you know, remember this line in Flobear where he says, "We're all um mute bears banging

desperately on a drum as we look at the beauty of the stars." In other words, we're this kind of trapped caged animal that's just like aware of living in the universe and we don't know what to do

other than mutely like bang our fists against this drum. And it's this image of inarticulacy.

Um I mean all of us go to our graves with most of our experience still locked inside us. You know when when when

inside us. You know when when when somebody dies it's not just their physical form that dies. It's millions

and billions of impressions of thoughts of sensations etc that are evaporated.

You know as every brain switches off an enormous memory is just deleted. And

every now and then this what we call the history of culture. A few things are rescued from this burning library. Think

think of every person as like a library containing millions of books that are tipped into the ocean. And every now and then, just just as those books are are

cascading down into the sea, someone rescues one book or two or three or four and and we get a little fragmentaryary

impression of what it was like for that person to think. Um, but this is a fraction. I mean just think of the

fraction. I mean just think of the history of culture not just as you know think of all the books in the world and think that those books are a fragment of what humans have actually thought and

felt. Um then you're starting to get a

felt. Um then you're starting to get a sense of the scale of mental activity um of which these people we call artists

are only just you know it's just a few extracts from that unwritten story. So,

so writers are writing the story that most humans have no time or inclination to write for themselves. You know,

they're just they're the scribes of humanity's thoughts. Not just their own

humanity's thoughts. Not just their own thoughts, but humanity's thoughts more generally, which is to come back to that other thing I was saying, you know, where people will say to me or other

writers, I that was my life you were describing. that was my thought that you

describing. that was my thought that you know that that that you had for me or with me and and that's just because we bathe in this much wider

community of thoughts um that's wider than the common sense thoughts you know there's there's a lovely quote from Emerson where he says in the minds of

geniuses we find our own neglected thoughts in the minds of geniuses we find our own neglected thoughts in other words geniuses do not have thoughts that

are fundamentally different from other people. What they do have is a kind of

people. What they do have is a kind of fidelity to the more neglected thoughts, the thoughts that are not mentioned in the parlor as it were, that are not brought

up at the dinner table, um but that are inside everybody and that are neglected through habit, embarrassment, shame,

status seeking, whatever it is that gets in the way of a more honest dialogue.

H how much of your experience as a writer has been been about a kind of discipline where you sit down, you do the work, you show up, I sit down at 9:00 a.m., the

inspiration comes and finds me versus something where you're channeling something from beyond.

It's like the proverbial example of sailing, isn't it? You've got to be with your ship and you've got to have the sail and you got to have the sail out and you're hoping for a prevailing wind.

Um, right. Yes.

right. Yes.

But, but you need that wind. You need to be out. You need to be out on the lake

be out. You need to be out on the lake with your with your boat.

Um, you know, you're there with your butterfly net.

You got to be there with butterfly.

Occasionally, a butterfly may fly into it. You got to be there with the net,

it. You got to be there with the net, otherwise you're not going to catch it.

But, but what does that actually mean?

What does it mean to be out on the lake or to be with the butterfly net? Does it

mean you'd be at your desk at nine o'clock?

You know, I don't know. I mean, you've got to have your brain switched on.

You've got to be um attentive to your own sensations and thoughts. That's the

real work.

Attentive to your own sensations and thoughts.

Sure. So, you know, if you're scrolling endlessly on your phone, you're lost.

Your mind is not is not with you.

I love that. So, I've been doing this thing where at the end of the day, I'll just sit down for 20, 30 minutes, and I just use this index card. I'll just try to fill the index card with just

attentive to my own sensations and thoughts. I love that turn of phrase.

thoughts. I love that turn of phrase.

And I am just mystified and blown away by how many sensations and thoughts there are.

Sure.

That I just do not realize.

Yeah.

most of which have no substance, but some of which really do, but I do not realize in the hustle and bustle of everyday life.

That's right. So, we would we would need, you know, all of us hours to process minutes to really pay attention to what's going on in a minute.

Yeah.

Um and of course, you know, the human kind of perceptual mechanism is purposefully dampened down. And there's

a quote from George Elliot where she says something like, "If we were truly attentive to the mystery and complexity of things, we would hear the squirrel's

heartbeat and would hear the grass grow and we would I'm paraphrasing it badly, something like we go mad from the multiplicity of things. We would lose our minds." But but the key thing is is

our minds." But but the key thing is is we would hear the squirrel's heartbeat and we would hear the grass grow. In

other words, what she's saying there is you're hearing it anyway, but you repress it. To use Freudian language,

repress it. To use Freudian language, you repress it.

These things are in you, but you haven't paid them attention because to to be alive, to their resonance is to um would be to kind of lose yourself.

Yeah.

And so, in order to speak to you now, I'm having to push away so many thoughts. every

every time I create a sentence, I'm sacrificing other sentences in the name of trying to sound logical. But I'm

dimly aware as we sit here and speak that I'm thinking also of other things, things I'm going to do later, things that have happened, things that whatever. And they're just like, but but

whatever. And they're just like, but but I'm because I'm not yet mad or scenile.

I will go mad, will go scenile probably at some point, but not yet. I'm still

able to maintain a kind of coherent more or less coherent narrative so that we're speaking. But you know, as I'm sure is

speaking. But you know, as I'm sure is it going on in your mind? There's

there's things going on, many things going on in the mind.

I'm mystified by the history of this room and all the things that have happened.

Right. Right. All of these things and and our minds are such rich instruments.

I can look at you and I'm also partly looking at those books and thinking about those books and the the shape of their spines etc. But it's almost as though there's some kind of triage

system in our minds which has evolved obviously over thousands of years of evolution of like what's important now and our minds are very good at going right this is what's important now so

I'm going to sacrifice other things I'm not going to look at that you know this is what makes you know very old people or mad people or small children this is what makes them fascinating but also

maddening to talk to is that they can't keep a coherent thread. So you'll say to the child you know what have you been doing in the garden and it'll say I've been playing and then it'll go table and you think oh hang on what what did you

do in the garden but they'll forget because they'll be suddenly sees but so they can't they can't triage their thoughts now good art a good artist a

good writer is someone who's borrowing from the art of triaging yeah I'm putting inverted commas badly in other words they are triaging not according to the standard sense of like what's

important But according to a more diffuse reassociative sense, they're going outside the normal bounds. You

know, you mentioned David Foster Wallace. If you said David Foster

Wallace. If you said David Foster Wallace, go on a cruise ship. What are

you noticing? He wouldn't go, I'm noticing that the bars here and he's like, "No, I'm I'm I'm alive to other resonances that are outside the normal purview." Um, and that's what all

purview." Um, and that's what all writers do.

Yeah. I think that So, I had this experience. had been in London working

experience. had been in London working on this documentary and the first day uh we were on the embankment on Waterl Bridge for 5 hours

and you have this really interesting sensation. I was sort of responsible for

sensation. I was sort of responsible for holding this caution tape and making sure that all the walkers by I mean a few thousand over the course of however

many hours would see and then wouldn't disrupt what's going on. And if you look at these people, no one is looking at the embankment. No one is looking at the

the embankment. No one is looking at the buildings around them. Everyone's just

going from point A to point B. But then

you sit there and you just look and you just stare at the same thing for 6 hours and all these things come alive. You

realize all these subtleties in the architecture, in how the sun changes the buildings, and you just realize, oh my goodness, I've never actually looked at what's going on. And I think that that's

a lot of what writing is is you're almost like taking handcuffs to an idea and you're just tethering yourself to that idea and you're just forcing yourself to look. Painting is the same

way. And I'm continually mesmerized by

way. And I'm continually mesmerized by all the things that I didn't see in hour 1, hour 2, hour three that begin to reveal themselves. And then you share

reveal themselves. And then you share that with other people. They're like,

"How do you see so deeply?" You're like, "No, no, no. I just looked at it for longer than you did."

That's right. That's right. And again,

small children are a guide to this. I

mean, anyone who's taken a small child to the park will know how this works.

So, you as the adult, they're like, "Right, we're going to the park." And

the child's like, "Hang on, I don't care about the park. I'm just like waking up to the mysteries of existence." So, I've just seen a brick wall and I want to run my hand along the mortar of that wall or there's a little bit of moss and I just

want to like stroke my cheek against it.

And you're thinking, okay, well, that's their priority. And the artist is a

their priority. And the artist is a little bit like that. the artist is is somebody who everybody's going go to the park and they're going actually I've just been detained by something a little

unusual and to turn that into something we call a work of art is is great achievement.

What's been the role of poetry in your life both both as a consumer but especially as as a writer?

So from from an early age I felt I felt on the back foot in relation to poetry.

there there was some early class in poetry that I should have gone to that I somehow didn't I feel felt I didn't get and so so I remember always reading po

thinking what's going on here like what what are we supposed to do here it's slightly weird language and I I I don't know I don't know what's going on at the

same time I started to notice that I sometimes had a poetic turn of phrase by which I really mean that I wasn't you know is that distinction between pros

and poetry. And pros is like summarize

and poetry. And pros is like summarize broadly. Um,

broadly. Um, you know, you're trying to get to a destination and you don't care so much the words that are being used. You're

just trying to say it. That's why safety instruction manual is written in pros, not this thing called poetry. Poetry

takes a more meandering route. It's

interested in the associations around words. Interested in making things more

words. Interested in making things more resonant, prettier, whatever it is. Uh,

more more thoughtful. taking a as it were serendipitous route to a destination. And I remember thinking,

destination. And I remember thinking, "Oh, I'm interested in that. I'm

interested in that as a writer, but I I haven't gone to poetry school, and I don't know what these poets do." And

there's this sort of idea that that the thing that really makes poetry is the length of the lines, uh, you know, the meter, the, you know, anamic this thing and that and, you know, all of those all

of that stuff that I don't know about.

uh and I'm not sure whether that is the case. I think that um poetry exists

case. I think that um poetry exists within you can put it in pros sentences.

There is this odd hybrid called the pros poem. Um Bodlair, great French writer

poem. Um Bodlair, great French writer wrote pros poems. Um lots of people have written pros poems which is really you know you're

abandoning the some of some of the formal structure of poetry. um uh but retaining some of what I want to call the resonance of poetry within a within

a pro structure. And I'm interested in that. Um, the poets that I favor are

that. Um, the poets that I favor are what you might call easyto read poets, poets that are not necessarily always

talking about Achilles and um, you know, Ajax and all those mythological figures that slightly fry your mind, but they're speaking in in they're using ordinary

words and ordinary situations, but putting them in slightly, you know, new ways. So the English poet Philip Larkin

ways. So the English poet Philip Larkin has been incredibly important like many people uh who get confused with poetry.

He's like he's a poet for people who don't understand poetry. It's very easy to understand. Someone like WH oren

to understand. Someone like WH oren again very easy to read poet um from which from whom you can get an an awful lot etc etc. So I'm really easy to read guys.

Yeah.

And girls. Uh, for me with poetry, the rules don't help me. The only thing, the only way that I get anything out of poetry is to try to memorize it and then somehow it comes alive.

Yeah. Interesting. That's really

interesting. That's really interesting.

I can't read poetry. I have to just read it and read it and say, "Oh, wow. That

struck me. I don't know why." And then I memorize it. And and you know that

memorize it. And and you know that suggests also that it might be fun to do it with someone that that you know if you were reading it to someone speaking poetry which of course how poetry began we think.

Yes. Of course.

Uh you know that's that's kind of fun.

So um yeah so memorizing it speaking it um socializing it might be a really good way in.

What moved you to spend so much time distilling other writers? Right. A lot of the school of

writers? Right. A lot of the school of life videos early on was hey guide to na guide to Sartra what moved you to summarize their as a writer uh I'd uh written a book

called the constellations of philosophy which is look at a number of six philosophers uh and I'd written a book on Puce called how Puce can change your

life and um etc etc. So I'd always been interested in uh how you how you talk about other writers or

other thinkers and um I was never interested in being an academic.

Academics academics are always claiming to be very faithful to the ideas of the people they talk about. I was less interested in

talk about. I was less interested in being absolutely faithful faithful as interested in charting what a writer

made me think about uh where they took me and so it no longer becomes just the writer. It's it's the interaction

writer. It's it's the interaction between me and that writer and which could go to a slightly different place.

Not necessarily what did nature actually say but what what can he say to us now given given the things that he did say, what

what resonances exist between what he said and our own times or or just my reading of it. So I'm interested in a more flavored, more personal response to

things. Um I often imagine thinking

things. Um I often imagine thinking someone saying, "Okay, you've read this thinker. What's really stayed with you?

thinker. What's really stayed with you?

what what you know let's be really honest here what what is sticking with you and you know that's different from trying to write a Wikipedia page on somebody it's

a very different exercise it's trying to you know you were describing a a typical day when you might ask yourself what really happened today imagine doing that similar exercise you you know you shut somebody else's book you've been reading

nature and you shut somebody's book and you think okay what what's really stayed here and the answer could be quite different so it's it's not an academic exercise and I think in so far as you know my books on other thinkers have

resonated they've sold extremely well YouTube videos have gone extremely well I think the reason is that we're doing something I'm doing something there

that's different from the standard you know what chat GPT would do for you what Wikipedia page entry what an academic would do for you I'm not doing it academically the thing that's coming to

mind for me is how much of writing how much people are bogged down by what they feel like they're supposed to give.

You keep saying, "Ah, you know, I'm not an academic, you know, and even in school, it it sort of pushes us in a certain direction." I was going to pop in, but

direction." I was going to pop in, but it didn't feel right when you were talking about poetry. I was like, "It's probably a good thing that you didn't take that poetry class because so much of the way that we talk about poetry is super leftrained and analytical." And

you were talking about the amic pentameter of this and whatnot. Like,

what about just appreciating poetry?

Like, someone comes in like, "Hey, appreciate poetry." But

appreciate poetry." But so so often you're just bogged down by, oh, you're just not supposed to do that.

I mean, look, it's one of the great problems of life, this this rule of what you're supposed to do. Um, let's stop talking about writing and talk about business for a minute, just because it's

a nice place to go, unexpected place to go. So, businesses are creative

go. So, businesses are creative enterprises, structures that that consumer businesses that get this wrong all the time, right? Because a consumer

business is an attempt to try and work out what what will please somebody else.

And very often people are guided by what you're supposed to do rather than what you know you think really might be nice

for you. And so the same fakeness,

for you. And so the same fakeness, sentimentality, plastic quality enters as enters into creative works. So

imagine that sort of the bad restaurant.

The bad restaurant. Let's say a restaurant wants to be really elegant and lovely and but it it doesn't think about what elegance and loveliness really. It doesn't really go like

really. It doesn't really go like do you do you really need flowers on the table like are you you know do you really need do you really want to start with a melon? Do you really like melon

or you know whatever it is right and and it might not be that like you know and think about people hosting dinner parties. So, you know, imagine that

parties. So, you know, imagine that first time when you invite a friend around for dinner and you're like, "Please come around and like, you know, people reach a certain stage in kind of bourgeoa urban life where they're like

they'll they'll invite, you know, the colleague from work to to their home to like let's break bread together and, you know, whatever." And suddenly it's like,

know, whatever." And suddenly it's like, "Wow, I've got to give a dinner party, so I've got to I don't know, got to buy some chicken or something because that's what you do." And then we got to have like the first course and then the second course and then we got to sit down and whatever. people get terribly

hampered rather than thinking, "Okay, what do I really want to do here?" And

it might be totally different. I mean,

imagine saying, "Okay, let's just have some let's just have some crisps and a can of tuna and and then and then just like lie on the sofa and just chat, cuz that's actually who we are and what we want to do. Uh let's turn out the light

and look at the stars. Uh let's go for a walk between courses. Uh let's cry together. Let's do the washing up. Let's

together. Let's do the washing up. Let's

just be weird because we are weird." And

you know there's this there's what you're supposed to do and be and feel and then there's the truth which is the weirdness of of life. I mean this happens also in relationships. I mean

this is this is the fun thing about a good relationship right? You meet

someone and you're like you're dating them and you're like how are you? You

know I'm very fine. How are you? You

know etc. And then you know 3 months down the line you're like did you meet any of those things? Oh no. You know do you really like ice skating? Oh god no.

You know I just I thought it would impress you or whatever it is. and you

suddenly emerge as a much more complicated, ultimately more lovable, more weird kind of person. And it and it's okay.

Well, isn't this so weird when it comes to writing how all the people that you like, you like for their idiosyncrasies and whatever it is, they've leaned into something to a degree that you've kind

of never seen before. Sometimes they

just bend grammar in all sorts of weird ways, but like whatever they're doing, it feels true to who they are. And then

yet once you sit down to write, you're like, "Oh, I'm not supposed to do that.

I'm not supposed to do that." And then you kind of get boxed in, especially when you start off as a writer.

Which is why, you know, those exercises are rather good to think, okay, if there were no rules, if if you couldn't fail, if no one was going to laugh, if you were going to be dead tomorrow, what

would you actually do and say, and how would you write, let's say? And that's

the thing you should write. So for me in my writing career, I thought I want to be a novelist. So I've got to write these things called novels based on the 19th century novel. And then gradually I

just thought it to all those rules and ended up producing a book which was much weirder, more original and some people like it. Um

which one was that?

That was my first book called on love essays in love. But as I say now I'm a spoiled boy. Now I just only do what I

spoiled boy. Now I just only do what I want. like

want. like right and and and I kind of think if I'm getting bored the reader will be getting bored.

Totally.

So I just want to write and that doesn't mean the opposite is not true. Just

because I'm interested doesn't mean the reader's interested. But it's got a much

reader's interested. But it's got a much higher chance of interesting someone.

And and so I am now I wake up every morning and I just think right what am I what do I feel like writing about? I'm

no longer thinking about books. Weirdly

I'm thinking about pieces of pros that are around 800 words long. And I don't care what it's about. And I just want it to feel like the thing that I most want

to write that day. And I write in the early morning when I'm feeling like other people's agendas, etc. are not really on the horizon. So I'm coming

from sleep. It's kind of protected

from sleep. It's kind of protected personal space. And I just write what

personal space. And I just write what what pleases me. And then I think I'll find a place for it. I'll find somewhere to slot it in cuz I've got about 22 books on the go now. now and I just think oh I'll put it there or I'll put

it there or one day it will belong to somewhere but it's written as it were from the heart and I have totally given up the old way of working whereby I'm working on a book and that means I just

need to knit the next bit of the tapestry I'm like I'm just going by feeling I mean sometimes okay I'm slightly exaggerating sometimes I have a sense of like it would be good to be

good to try and fill this bucket of like if you're having a bucket of like thoughts around pictures It's like, okay, maybe drop them in that bucket.

Um, but but on the whole, I'm trying to keep things fluid and feeling very authentic.

Yeah. My friend Jeremy Gon once said to me, "If you're ever struggling with writer's block, three words, be more honest."

honest." Yeah.

Be more honest.

Yeah. That's what writer's block is.

Writer's block is is a conflict between sort of the shame and the desire for honesty. It's like a sense of what

honesty. It's like a sense of what you're supposed to do and feel and what you're actually feeling and doing which is which has gone numb. And so again, I mean it's look it's a very useful

exercise to say to yourself what am I actually feeling? What do I actually

actually feeling? What do I actually want? Where am where am I actually? And

want? Where am where am I actually? And

and seeing and I mean it's a very good rule of thumb with people as well. you

know, if you've got a blocked relationship with someone to say, you know, sometimes we get stuck in sort of games playing and double guessing and, you know, all the rest of it and just go, what would I

really want to tell this person? What do

what do I really, you know, and sometimes it it's not always possible to say it, but at least if you've got it in view, that's very helpful.

Yeah. you. So, I got to credit you with changing my mind on one thing more than there's one thing you really changed my mind on and it's the news.

And there's a I still remember exactly where it was. There's a part early in the book where you talk about Hegel and he says that a society becomes modern

when it elevates the news to the level of what religious faiths used to be in society. And I was like, whoa. And it

society. And I was like, whoa. And it

made me realize, you sort of step away from this book and you just realize everyone is in this constant consumption of the news. And

it's a weird head scratcher about the modern world of this obsession with people we'll never meet, places we'll never go. And of course, it shapes the

never go. And of course, it shapes the horizon, the mental horizon in an unbelievable way. The news media, it

unbelievable way. The news media, it gives us a sense of what you're supposed to be thinking about, you know, back to supposed to. about it is supposed to uh and and it's so powerful.

So people will say people will routinely say things like well of course we're living in this very sad age and sometimes I think okay let's just take a

step back here like says who like when did this age get anointed and like compared to what like you know the 4th century in Abbiscinia or you know the the 12th century in Syria and they're

like well because of certain things that have happened in you know place X that's you know CNN has alerted them to And I mean, look, you can see how it happens

and we're all prey to that, but but any artist worth their salt does not think this way. I mean, this is a very

this way. I mean, this is a very programmatic, you know, um industrial way of thinking. Our our inner lives have been industrialized.

Wow.

And um commercialized. And that's no good for, you know, the the free thinker and and the honest thinker, the authentic thinker thinker. So yeah, we

got to take care around this thing called the news. And um I think you're not really a responsible adult until you don't know certain significant things

that people around you think of as very important. You know, if there's a singer

important. You know, if there's a singer that you don't know about at all, if there's a movie that you just you know that people know about it, but you you just don't know about it. You just you just haven't

about it. You just you just haven't crossed that threshold. Uh congratulate

yourself. You're doing well. You're

you're keeping a bit of your mental experience for for yourself. Um

we don't need to know everything that everybody else knows. Um we need to know the interesting bits of our own experience. Yeah. I mean, I don't know

experience. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if this is actually the etmology of it, but I we'll run with the bit and pretend it's true. But like you could almost

it's true. But like you could almost think of the news, the new all the new things. Like the news, the new is in

things. Like the news, the new is in news. And like I would almost say that

news. And like I would almost say that knowing all the new things is almost the antithesis of the pursuit of wisdom, which is actually about cultivating the small percentage of old things that have

stood the test of time. or spotting the archetypes, spotting that that the so-called new is a repetition of something old. And what is it? What's

something old. And what is it? What's

the story that keeps getting repeated?

It's the story of a tyrant who, you know, forgave their enemy. It's the

story of a society that became decadent.

It's the story of um greed that got in the way of goodness or whatever it is.

And you know, the news doesn't want us to think that way. It wants us to think that anomalous things have always happened. um you know whereas again art

happened. um you know whereas again art pulls in another direction. It's like

here again you know think of um Jericho's raft of the Medusa. Do you

know that painting in the Louv in Paris?

There was a ship called the Medusa in 19th century France and it went uh it ran ground and the passengers ended up on a raft. They ended up eating each other. There was cannibalism and they're

other. There was cannibalism and they're waving. It shows them waving at at uh

waving. It shows them waving at at uh you know in hope of rescue. Various

people have said various things about this raft of the Medusa. I think it was Victor Hugo. Someone said um the people

Victor Hugo. Someone said um the people on the raft of the Medusa that's France.

France is the on the raft of the Medusa.

It's a it's a painting about the whole of France. Um which is a way of saying

of France. Um which is a way of saying okay it's one it it was so it was a news item was the it was the an accident of like it was like a plane crash like one

of our you know but but it it was mined for its metaphoric association. And so

suddenly it could be like a metaphor for how the nation has has run around and how you know people are eating one another as it were. And but all large

scale events have that potentially metaphoric quality. I mean if you think

metaphoric quality. I mean if you think of all the ancient Greek myths Troy or stories you know Troy and you know Adysius and and Penelopey etc. you know

let's imagine they were news items but they're also myths. And what we mean by a myth is something with a an application way beyond itself. It's

speaking about something eternal in ourselves, which is why they work, you know, which is why the story of Adysius returning to his beloved Penelope and

going through all these adventures um is something that you know is part of your story and my story and everybody's story right now. Um but again, the news

right now. Um but again, the news doesn't want to think that that way. you

know, news wants to direct us towards only the the very surface novelty. So,

so it's thinking in a media way and thinking in a mythic way and I think it's very good to try and think in a mythic way.

Yeah. And also the in the tapestry of the news, the thread of politics is so bound within and politics is the mind killer. Say we're having a conversation

killer. Say we're having a conversation about about Van Van Go's waterlies. Okay. So,

pretend I don't like the waterlies. You

like the water lilies. It's like we'll look at them and we can just look at this thing and we can come to the thing fresh and we can say hey I like this painting. I I don't know something about

painting. I I don't know something about the way that the blues and the greens are interacting kind of bothers me. I

actually wow I really don't like that.

Whereas when we have a conversation about a politician, what now has happened is we're coming to that topic with a bunch of preconceived

notions and because of that we're in like these word traps of, you know, just as you were talking about earlier like this age of sadness, right? It's like

the right and the left and stuff like that. And because of that, we're in

that. And because of that, we're in these sort of boxed in, right? And

already the fault lines of divisiveness and separation and this team versus that team are kind of rooted inside of it.

Whereas when we read about events that happened, say in ancient Greece, we don't have those notions. So

we can approach them more freshly.

Again, it's it's where back to what you're supposed to think. And what we want to say is political structures give you a map of what you're supposed to think if you are a certain sort of person.

So, you know, if you're from the left, you should have certain kinds of antipathies and certain kinds of loves if you're from the right, you know, ditto. But what's really interesting,

ditto. But what's really interesting, um, once you go beyond politics and once you get to know people really well, this is the fun stuff of life. So, I remember being uh, with a group of friends and we started playing a game.

So it was trying to reduce the shame around the idea of which politicians you found kind of sexually attractive despite maybe not agreeing with their

politics. Was there any kind of sexual,

politics. Was there any kind of sexual, you know, feeling around certain? And of

course, you know, we all ended up giggling a lot because um there was such striking dissonances or discrepancies between what you were supposed to feel

and what what people actually felt um around certain politicians and ideas, etc. So, so no one actually thinks in a

purely left or right way. Um, they just think they're supposed to. The the

reality is much more nuanced and complicated. Just like, you know, think

complicated. Just like, you know, think of ideas of masculinity and femininity, which we know that, you know, an archetypal man really in many points does not think like an archetypal man

and feel like an archetype. And

Napoleon's letters to Josephine, right?

I'm just amazed every time I read those.

You think of Napoleon, this military conqueror. It's like

conqueror. It's like the sweetest.

Right.

Most desperate love.

Right. Right. And and Yeah. I mean, it's a good example. Millions of other examples. Exactly. That that um you

examples. Exactly. That that um you know, a true picture of human nature is so much more nuanced and and politics is

a massive abbreviation. Um, and when people argue about politics, they're half the time also arguing with themselves of trying to make the world

simpler than it is. Um, and

you know, in inside every right-winger, there's a left-winger inside and vice versa, blah blah blah. You know, it's inside every man, there's a woman, inside every woman, there's a man. You

know, inside every adult, there's a child. You know, these things are

child. You know, these things are multiple. And whenever you come across a

multiple. And whenever you come across a more a simplified version, you know, we we know it's not true. We know it's not true.

The thing that surprised me the most from this conversation so far is how much you've referenced painting. That's

not something I expected coming in the conversation, and I want to hear more about how you look at paintings and how you pull from paintings to bring them

into your own creative expression.

So you know I think in in many ways um one could point to various paintings and go that's a bit of me. If you want to understand me like look at these

paintings. So so the work of Saiwani for

paintings. So so the work of Saiwani for example is really important to me. Take

some of those uh chalk writing images of Tombli where essentially it looks like someone's writing on a chalkboard in a crazy script meaning something profound and archaic and strange. That to me is

like a portrait of what thinking looks like. He's like he's like making mental

like. He's like he's like making mental maps of what thinking looks like. Um and

and I think you could apply that metaphor to lots of things like a certain artist is giving you a picture of what X looks like and it could be an inner state. I mean abstract artists are

inner state. I mean abstract artists are obviously very good at this. You could

look at a Rothkco and go this is what you know melancholy looks like. This is

what dejection looks like. This is what humiliation looks like. But you could also look at a you know a realistic representation and go this is what hope looks like this is what courage looks like

serenity serenity etc. But yes, paintings matter a lot as does indeed architecture, design, the the the visual environment

is is constantly communicating values to us. Um there's a lovely quote from the

us. Um there's a lovely quote from the French writer Stalile, beauty is the promise of happiness. So in other words, when we find something beautiful, it's really promising us not just a isolated

aesthetic experience. It's promising us

aesthetic experience. It's promising us a happy way of living. And

that's a that's a much richer kind of complicated thing. So so it's always

complicated thing. So so it's always good to ask somebody who says, you know, I find Greece beautiful or I find, you know, this house beautiful. You might

go, okay, well, what what's the way of life that you imagine? What

what are the values that you associate with this? How would an average day look

with this? How would an average day look like? How would you want to live? Um um

like? How would you want to live? Um um

you know there's a there's a Rilka poem uh where the poet sees the bust of Apollo in a museum and the the challenge

is the the bust of Apollo is is beaming to Rilka um a vision of life. It's like

it's saying imagine what it would be like to live as this bust is suggesting that I live. And these are sort of archaic um you know mythic Greek ancient

Greek values. But every object is

Greek values. But every object is essentially beaming out to you like how to live. This chair which I don't

to live. This chair which I don't particularly like is suggesting um you know how to be how to be a person. It's

got it's got a vision of life. I mean

advertisers sometimes do this but it's quite helpful. It's like if your car

quite helpful. It's like if your car turned into a person what kind of a person would it be? Right?

Um if your chair turned into a person what kind of person would it be? If your

font if your font on your book turned into a person, what kind of font, you know, what what's it character? So

things have character much more than we normally. So if if if this cloud in the sky was a person, what would it want to tell you? We we're very good at that kind of syninesthesic

connection once we allow ourselves to.

As writers, how should we think about our readers? Like in what ways should we

our readers? Like in what ways should we serve our readers and write for them?

And in what ways should we say, "Ah, no, I'm writing for myself here and I'm focused right now. Maybe I'll worry about the reader later, but how do you navigate that relationship?"

relationship?" I think you've got to have a reader inside you. So, it's not like me, I'm

inside you. So, it's not like me, I'm the speaker and the reader is out there and they're the reader.

We all of us have a reader inside us.

And what I mean by that is, you know, we are all readers as well as writers and we, you know, we host as well as, you know, perform. And so you just have to

know, perform. And so you just have to appeal to the the inner reader. And by

which I really mean I mean what makes people very boring as conversational partners is they've stopped wondering how their words might sound to somebody else. Right? I mean we all we all know

else. Right? I mean we all we all know those people who have just lost the they they're not asking themselves a cruel but necessary question which is

how is what I'm saying how might what I'm saying or want to say fit into somebody else's life? Where could this go? totally oblivious. So, so you know,

go? totally oblivious. So, so you know, we all know those people who tell you very boring stories and they're like, you say, "How was your trip?" And they go, "Well, it it was great, but the thing is that they're like that when you get to

the the airport, you know, the form has to be and and you're thinking, okay, I understand that this was very very impactful for you, but like I can't use this. I can't use this." So, like

this. I can't use this." So, like whereas somebody else might be using the same material, but just have prepared it a bit differently. They'll go they'll go you know how bureaucracy like gets in the way of things and the bureaucratic

mindset is got a certain sadism. So you

know when they say like get to the back of the line do you ever wonder you know and suddenly you're like okay they're telling you about their holiday but they're also they've given you something that you can eat and absorb and

metabolize something's nicely being prepared. So I think a a good writer is

prepared. So I think a a good writer is thinking where could this go inside the reader's mind but they're also really faithful to a bit of themselves and

they're saying okay do I you know it has to stop it has to I think the order of kind of priority is it has to start with you and what you want to say and then you got to find a way of bridging that

to um what what a reader could possibly absorb. So a very perceptive friend of

absorb. So a very perceptive friend of mine once looked at my writing style and let me tell you a bit about my history as a as a person. I had a a very

academic father, very erodite and very yeah very academic uh a a person of not great originality of thought but but

very you know had read many many books and and and spoke in a solemn and pedantic way like a like a proverbial

professor. And then I had a nanny who

professor. And then I had a nanny who would brought me up essentially. My

parents were off the scene for a long long periods. And I was left in the

long periods. And I was left in the charge of a a woman who um uh was very uneducated uh very clever and um but a you know not an academic at all. Someone

who loved nature been brought up in a rural village in Switzerland and was um you know didn't think in in academic terms and always wanted to think about

nature and quite religious etc. And this friend of mine said, "You're basically trying to write a book that could be understood and liked by your father and your nanny." And I thought, "Oh, wow.

your nanny." And I thought, "Oh, wow.

That's true. That's exactly what I'm doing." Trying to speak to two different

doing." Trying to speak to two different audiences. So, to answer your question,

audiences. So, to answer your question, one of the things about people and their readers, it's not just like, are you thinking of the reader, but what sort of reader are you like are you are you

picturing? Are you kind of imagining?

picturing? Are you kind of imagining?

Are you honoring? Let me tell you the the other origins of my writing. So I

had a teddy bear when I was little. So I

had all sorts of problems as a kid as a little kid and and I invented this bear and this bear had a life that was quite similar to mine and I was its father. So

I would speak to the bear in my mind and I would say okay I know this thing. So I

went to boarding school when I was 8 years old. I was picked shipped to

years old. I was picked shipped to England from my native Switzerland. And

in my mind, my way of processing and dealing with that is my bear also went to boarding school and I was his father and I was a really sweet and kind father and I would basically tell it nice things every evening and I'd say look

I'm really sorry that those like boys you know threatened you today but it's okay because you know it's okay you've got to go to school and you know the holidays will come etc. And I was the

father to this bear and uh someone said to me the school of life is just your continuation of your bear. you're just

like you just can you're you're doing for people what you did for that bear which is kind of translate your own experience into something digestible for an imaginary audience that's

cheering you up and might be cheering them up too. So I thought that was perceptive too and uh that could be something of that. So,

you know, if we think about religions, because religions are very onto this, you know, a religion, I'm not a believer, and I'm sorry if members of your audience are. I I have huge huge

respect for for for religious belief. I

think religion is a is a fantastic way of externalizing, metaphorizing our our

inner lives, ascribing to um uh to a supernatural figure, an authority, uh a wisdom, a kindness that actually exists within all of us, but it's refracted in

this theological beautiful theological system. I I I would say I don't want to

system. I I I would say I don't want to be impious. I mean I am I am impiest but

be impious. I mean I am I am impiest but I say it with with respect because I don't think by the way that this is a you know a Richard Dawkins would go and that's very immature and that's a silly

thing. No, this is an amazingly

thing. No, this is an amazingly beautiful and complex things that humans can do. We we raify

can do. We we raify some of our own mental processes and and this helps us to cope with the agonies of being alive and that's an amazing

thing that that we humans do. And I

think there's a link between, as I say, how children play when when they'll say, you know, that that table's watching me or that's a good table. That table's

kind. It's it's it's got my interest in mine. You're like, okay, wow, you've

mine. You're like, okay, wow, you've you've lodged something from in you in there, and you it's helping you to cope and to and to live. And and you know, artists are doing elements of this, too.

So, I just want to kind of get on the table these different elements. children

playing imaginative play the other thing art the creation of art and the creation of religions I think that we're we're we're dealing with quite common elements

common maneuvers are taking place in those three arenas I would say what else do you think that we can take from the faiths that you've studied like one

of the things that you've spoken about that I definitely see in your writing is the difference between a lecture and a sermon that a lecture is there to give you

information. A sermon is there to give

information. A sermon is there to give you information and maybe a story so that it yields a change in behavior.

That's right. That's right. That's

right. And I'm obviously much more on the sermon side.

Exactly.

I I mean, look, religions have been, you know, I I know there are a lot of people who've been traumatized by religion, hurt by religion.

Yeah.

You know, we we want to honor those people and hear them, too. Um, and then the people who have been very helped and are religious. And then there are the

are religious. And then there are the people who are might be atheists and quite totally indifferent. And I would want to say to those to that constituency, look at these structures cuz they're

really rather interesting. Like you

thought they had nothing to say to you because you don't believe, but oh my goodness, there's a lot going on here that you need to find out about. I mean,

and we're not just talking, but we are also talking about the cultural aspect, the paintings, the whatever, but it's really what's animating, you know, these these structures. I look at religions

these structures. I look at religions and think of religions as the most sophisticated attempts to um persuade and change the inner life of humans. Art

art also tries to do this, but it has it's so much weaker um largely because in post kind of romantic art that the artist is a lone creator. They they

don't they're not trying to build a church. They're not trying to build a

church. They're not trying to build a movement. It's just them and they have

movement. It's just them and they have their own utterances. And that's fine, but it's going to be weak in the world in a noisy world. So, what we really have nowadays are corporations who know

how to amplify their messages and loan creators who are tiny next to the messages of these corporations. Um, in

the olden world, we we had religions. I

mean, of course, we still have religions, but you know, we're not creating new religions. Sometimes we

are. But but at at the height of the creative potential of many religions, there was this idea of using art, architecture poetry fashion um

smells, uh locations, etc. to to amplify a message. And I'm very interested in

a message. And I'm very interested in that. Well, one of the through lines of

that. Well, one of the through lines of this conversation, of your work, and of this particular topic, the word that's coming to mind is enchantedness. And we

live in an age of disenchantment. And

part of an age of disenchantment is a time when logic and reason and things that we can point a cause and effect to those are the things that we value and trust. And what I see you doing talking

trust. And what I see you doing talking about here, but also doing just in the way that you speak is I'm sorry for this word mining cuz you're doing something far richer than that, but mining is what

came to mind. Like mining these more ancient philosophy sort of bathing in in in how they think. And then I think that a lot of the reason why your work resonates with actually non-believers,

people who are atheists, is because they're feeling that enchantment. So

that when I say, "Hey, I'm interviewing Elaine De Bon." You know, usually people are like, "Cool." And you're one of the people where people are like, "Wow, you know, that person had an impact on me.

They spoke to my heart because the tools of enchantment are the things that sort of seep past the gates of the rational mind."

Yeah. I mean, you know, and that's the most wonderful thing about religions.

They're alive to what gets called the numminous or mystery um mysterium tremendum. You know, that the the this

tremendum. You know, that the the this German theologian invented this term to capture the idea of um the religious mindset being open to things that that transcend the understanding, the

ordinary understanding, the the thing you're supposed to understand. Um and we all have intimations of this. I mean,

look, the night sky is the, you know, and the good thing about the night sky is it's it's there every night. Um, but

my goodness, we're not picking up on the resonance of the night sky. I mean, the night sky is has got all sorts of things to tell us. Um, you know, a clear night sky is a challenge to everything. I

mean, if we really took on board what that night sky is telling us, we'd have to lie down and just question absolutely everything because Twinkle, twinkle, little star, how I

wonder what you are. up above the world so high like a diamond in the sky.

That is Yeah, kids can feel that. How I wonder what you are. Wow.

you are. Wow.

But but yeah, it's wonder. And I mean, you know, we've let the scientists take over that area. And scientists give build planetariums and they want to tell us exactly how many moons Saturn has and

exactly the distance between, you know, Pluto and, you know, some next galaxy.

Fair enough. These guys are sometimes doing, you know, great work. But most of us don't care about the stars from that point of view. We care about the night sky in terms of reorienting us as human

beings and reminding us that the earthly priorities and the priorities of the thing the that's a meter ahead of you is only one part of existence and that it's just a permanent reminder of otherness.

And I think this is what it's what we always forget um that our own minds and thoughts are only one part of this giant, you know, thing that we could be

thinking about. Every time we travel,

thinking about. Every time we travel, every time we land in a foreign destination, we're like, "Oh my god, the world's so strange. I I was in one place at one time and now we're in another place and and here's a guy reading a

newspaper by a palm tree and I didn't know that they existed, that palm tree existed, that newspaper existed, that font existed. What's going on? the world

font existed. What's going on? the world

is so amazing, beautiful, strange, etc. And suddenly we're jolted out of habit.

But most of the time habit, you know, we're living under the habit. So art is the most it's a stabilized form of

dislocation. It's a way of seeing beyond

dislocation. It's a way of seeing beyond habit at the true mystery and strangeness and beauty and pain of everything.

Yeah.

How does AI factor into your writing reading process? You're like, I hate

reading process? You're like, I hate that. Or you're like, wow, it's I use it

that. Or you're like, wow, it's I use it all the time. Where you at?

Um, I don't really use it in my writing, but I use it as a therapist. As a therapist, which is quite strange because I'm actually a trained psychotherapist. I am

I am a psychotherapist. And um

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah. I I practice one day a week. I did

a training a few years ago and um and so it's quite strange that I would say you know I I think it's pretty good at taking fragments of you know

interpersonal psychology and especially if you prompt it right at teasing out certain resonances that are that are pretty good. So um I think it's good at

pretty good. So um I think it's good at that. Uh I think it's look it has it has

that. Uh I think it's look it has it has awesome powers. any creative person will

awesome powers. any creative person will be asking themselves, okay, is the game up or do I have anything to contribute?

And the good news is, I mean, the good news is that it really forces you to do that thing that you should always have been doing as an artist, which is stop doing what you're supposed to do. Do

what you really want to do. Be really

honest. explore your own experience with with renewed honesty because the AI only provides a summation of what has already been thought and said. Yes, it can be

recombined etc. But essentially it it's giving you standardized answers.

Sometimes very good standardized answers. Sometimes standard answers are

answers. Sometimes standard answers are great and and way in advance of what you would know yourself. But sometimes there are still bits of our own minds that that remain distinctive. But but you

know the pressure is on creatives to you know to further up their level of you know self exploration to get ahead of this uh machine.

Mhm. Why don't you use it in your writing?

Um look I I I use it sometimes for you know bits of research you know provide me with you know where where is there a cafe that looks like this or is there a painting that was you know blah blah blah. But but if I said to it, let's if

blah. But but if I said to it, let's if let's say I was going to write an essay on nostalgia and I said, "Okay, so I said to AI, right, structure me an essay on nostalgia in the style of

style of me, right? It would do a perfectly decent job, but it wouldn't be picking up on why I'm a writer, why I want to be a writer. I mean, I don't just want to be a writer to produce

certain number of words. I want to be a writer in order to honor certain feelings." And AI can't know those

feelings." And AI can't know those feelings because it's not me. So it

doesn't know what I really want to say and if I simply give it over to AI, it will crush my nent sense, my intuition about what it is that that that I want

to say. So um I mean sometimes, you

to say. So um I mean sometimes, you know, I I actually don't tend to do this, but one could, you know, I'd rather write the essay and then go right now, I'm going to ask see what see if I've missed out anything. Oh yes, I've

missed out something. let me go back and and add something that, you know, that the generic had some insight that I wasn't picking up on.

But normally, I I can't be bothered to change it anymore. It's like it was what it was. It was what I thought. I'm not

it was. It was what I thought. I'm not

trying to again write a Wikipedia article on a on a topic. I'm trying to honor my own state of mind. So, I'm I've got a more selfish project. Um I don't want to know what everybody thinks or

what the what the last word is. I want

to try and do justice to what I happen to be feeling.

If I invited you to a university and I were to say, "All right, this is your class of writers. You're going to do a semester to teach writing." How would you structure that curriculum? What

would you tell them? This is this is what I've learned. This is what you need to know from my experience about how to be a writer.

I first I'd really want to play around with it with with their notion of what it means to be a writer. what what's the kind of book that a writer writes? And

I'd really want to see whether they are being oppressed by a notion of a kind of literature that they're supposed to write. Um, I'd also explore whether

write. Um, I'd also explore whether they, you know, what it is that made them want to be a writer, you know, because maybe they maybe they shouldn't be a writer. Maybe they should be a something else or could be a something

else, something easier, something more more fun. It's not that great fun to be

more fun. It's not that great fun to be a writer, you know. So just to explore where that career ambition kind of came from. I I think I want to look at that.

from. I I think I want to look at that.

Um we might want to have fun with with with you know introspection introspective exercises trying to you know you talked about sort of downloading the brain after every after

every day. You know I think those

every day. You know I think those exercises are very fascinating. Um you

know let's all go to have an experience.

Let's all go to the park. Let's see the same thing and then let's all let's all reflect on it in our own way. Maybe do

an exercise where we try and describe what we think we're supposed to say about a visit to the park. Let's do the objective visit to the park and then we say what was really going on in your mind which might have absolutely nothing to do with the park. Maybe thinking

about something completely different just to show that contrast between the supposed and the inner thing to to flex that sort of inner muscle. I' I'd

essentially want to try and awaken or further develop uh students relationship to their what you might call inner voice

or uh fragments of authentic feeling what Emerson was calling neglected thoughts you know so they they become more attentive to the neglected thought

really striking even in that answer you didn't mention any of the things that we learn in school you didn't mention grammar you didn't mention syntax you mentioned the authenticity of feeling

the difference between what you're supposed to feel and what you actually feel. And then you start off with like

feel. And then you start off with like what? Why do you want to do this in the

what? Why do you want to do this in the first place? That's not how most people

first place? That's not how most people talk about teaching writing.

Yeah. It's no surprise that I've never been asked to teach.

Thanks, man. Such a cool person to talk to. Thank you so much for that was

to. Thank you so much for that was what a joy. What a joy. Thank you for coming on.

Thank you. What a pleasure.