Institutional Investors: Charting the Course | Global Conference 2025

Well, good morning everybody. Thank you

for coming. Shout out to everybody for uh hanging in there through Wednesday.

Um and a big shout out to Aaron Lubetz.

Uh Aaron put this panel together. We

always do the institutional investor panel on Wednesday and really the credit goes because we have a lot of different funds and I think you're going to enjoy that. not just pension plans but a whole

that. not just pension plans but a whole variety of people with different plans and different objectives. And I have

here the course the plan for GDP for 2025 and 2026. This one was written in December. So got get rid of that. Um

December. So got get rid of that. Um

thankfully I have another chart in the course. This one was written in uh early

course. This one was written in uh early February after Trump and everybody knew it. But of course this one too. Yeah.

it. But of course this one too. Yeah.

It's gone. So, uh, an a cute story. Um,

this this is a fun town being in Beverly Hills. Uh, my wife is here and our

Hills. Uh, my wife is here and our anniversary is coming up, so I thought it would do something special. And I

rented a limo last night. Um, and 300 bucks. Like, okay, that's kind of

bucks. Like, okay, that's kind of pricey. But then it showed up. It didn't

pricey. But then it showed up. It didn't

have a driver. And I thought, here I've spent 300 bucks and I've got nothing to show for it.

Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week.

You know, I have some jokes about oil drilling, but it they're boring, so I won't tell you. Okay, so I will stop there. Uh, with me on the panel, uh, uh,

there. Uh, with me on the panel, uh, uh, Justin Burton from UCLA, go Bruins. Jenny Chan, uh, from

go Bruins. Jenny Chan, uh, from Children's Hospital in Philadelphia, Edwin Dennison from SWIB, as we like to say, state of Wisconsin. uh Jonathan

Glidden from Delta Airlines and Guadalupe Rodriguez from Teleipot. So

what I want you to do is go down, we'll start with you um and describe for us not just your fund size, where you're located, but what is your your

liabilities? What are you aiming for?

liabilities? What are you aiming for?

What's the goal of your plan? Because I

think for each one of you it's very different. So uh Guadalupe,

different. So uh Guadalupe, good morning everyone. Wenos Diaz. Um,

my name is Guadalupe Rodriguez. Many

people call me Lupe. If you're in the south, it's Lupy.

Um, we are a single family office of a Mexican family. We're based between La

Mexican family. We're based between La Hoya, California, and Mexico City. Uh,

with our back office in Kulyakans Aaloa.

very similar, Chris, to what you just did to your piece of paper is where we are in terms of how we're thinking about things moving forward, especially given

um last week's uh events in Washington DC between the private sector, the public sector, and everyone in between.

And yesterday or day before yesterday, U Secretary Bet's comments. So, I'm

actually here expecting answers from everyone else.

Morning everyone. Uh Delta sponsors both a defined benefit and a 401k plan. The

defined benefit plan has been frozen for 20 years. It's also 106% funded which is

20 years. It's also 106% funded which is a pretty unusual, you know, kind of combination and it opens up some interesting conversations uh for both Delta and for our

participants in the in the way of retirement readiness. So, we're kind of

retirement readiness. So, we're kind of at that point where it's really it's very I won't give you too much pension stuff, but we're 106% funded on a gap

basis. If Delta has to make a

basis. If Delta has to make a contribution, that's a different funded status, which is 100.5, right? So, if

it's below 100, there are mandatory contributions. It's above 100, there's

contributions. It's above 100, there's not. So, it's very important that we

not. So, it's very important that we generate returns. So, we want to

generate returns. So, we want to generate, you know, these are our objectives. I want to make a 7% return

objectives. I want to make a 7% return like every year in 2025 I want to make 7%. I don't want to lose money and we

7%. I don't want to lose money and we want to keep our gap funded status nice and high. Uh so that's a lot on the

and high. Uh so that's a lot on the defined benefit side. On the 401k plan that's about 35 billion. Uh DB side it's 15 billion. Uh 401k is 35 billion. It's

15 billion. Uh 401k is 35 billion. It's

pretty plain vanilla. Uh we default into a uh an age appropriate target date fund. It's got a pretty standard glide

fund. It's got a pretty standard glide path associated with it. And I would say we do feel constrained by litigation risk in the 401k space. So it's largely passive. Uh we do manage to squeeze a

passive. Uh we do manage to squeeze a little bit of active management into the target date funds, but we really try to keep the expense ratio below 10 basis points. Right? So uh we'll talk a little

points. Right? So uh we'll talk a little bit more about Delta employees and retirement readiness as we as we get through the program. But that's the this you know when we survey our employees, that's what comes back as the worst.

It's not awful, but you know, for uh non-pilots, Delta will put in 3% into the 401k plan and then match dollar for dollar for the next six. So, if an employee puts in six, Delta will put in

nine to get up to 15. That's where we want people, but people still don't feel very uh broadly speaking don't feel very confident about their retirement. And

we'll circle back on some of some of these comments. Thank you, Edwin. Uh so

these comments. Thank you, Edwin. Uh so

the state of Wisconsin Investment Board manages the pension assets for the Wisconsin retirement system. Uh it's a a defined benefit plan uh covering almost

all of the public sector workers in the state. So we have about 700,000 members

state. So we have about 700,000 members and we manage around 140 billion in those pension assets. And you know the

in terms of always keeping an eyes on the prize uh we need to deliver 6.8% 8% uh over the longer term to keep the system stable. So we're very uh focused

system stable. So we're very uh focused and uh concerned on that. Um we are fully funded and part of that is the

reason uh is explained by uh a rather unique feature of our uh plan design and that is what we call risk sharing. So uh

when our active members decide to retire uh they're simply promised a fixed nominal uh level of a benefit payment through time. So there is no cola.

through time. So there is no cola.

However uh if we perform very well on the investment side so if we on a 5-year trailing basis provide more than a 5% annualized return over that period the

benefit levels actually go up. Uh but by the same token um if we underperform um that benefit level can go down.

However, nobody can ever be reduced before their floor or their initial uh annuity. And again, that's uh the risk

annuity. And again, that's uh the risk sharing nature of the the scheme and plan design. And that's one of the

plan design. And that's one of the things that helps uh keep us fully funded uh through the you know girrations of the capital market cycle.

Well, and kudos to you because you're one of I don't maybe three statewide pension plans that are fully funded, maybe only two in the whole country. So,

credit you guys. It's a very unique structure. Jenny, what about the

structure. Jenny, what about the hospital? At the Children's Hospital of

hospital? At the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, the long-term pool is approximately 3.4 billion these days, and we really act as a ballast for the

financial health of the hospital. We've

got a double A uh credit rating. That's

very important to us. And we want to make sure that we're able to provide the financial support for the entire enterprise to do research and innovation

and and help sick kids get well.

Awesome. So Justin, sure. Last but not least, um so UCLA uh foundation has about five billion dollars. about four

and a half of that is uh endowed assets that we manage in our office. Uh little

bit about UCLA for those in the audience. Uh I'm sure many of you know

audience. Uh I'm sure many of you know where it is, but it is the uh number one applied to school in the country. It's

the top ranked public university in the country. We have about 45,000 students

country. We have about 45,000 students uh on campus, but it's not just a university, it's also one of the top hospitals in the country as well. Um, it

will actually be the Olympic Village at the upcoming LA Olympics. Um, and given a lot of the content here over the last week, I thought an interesting fact

about UCLA is uh it's actually the the first site of the first internet message that was sent in 1969,

a little department of defense project called ARPANET. uh and some professors

called ARPANET. uh and some professors sent from a computer at UCLA to a computer at Stanford a message and that became node one and node two of uh the

internet. So wow u an interesting kind

internet. So wow u an interesting kind of history. I like half a century later

of history. I like half a century later I'm sitting here listening to panels about how like Skynet's coming and we're gonna you know computers are going to take over the world but um you know we

we have a very easy quote easy objective which is we need to do a 5% real rate of return into perpetuity. That's obviously

more difficult in a situation where inflation is higher or interest rates are lower. Um, and so we'll probably

are lower. Um, and so we'll probably almost always have a very equityoriented portfolio. Well, and in perpetuity, uh,

portfolio. Well, and in perpetuity, uh, let's think about how long that is. So,

I mean, we had a plan, now it's gone.

Let's talk about each of you with your time frames. Where are you comfortable

time frames. Where are you comfortable forecasting? What do you, you know, how

forecasting? What do you, you know, how are you going to navigate in this world?

Edwin, I'm going to start with you in the middle. Oh, sure. Well, it's

the middle. Oh, sure. Well, it's

ostensibly we're we're supposed to be, you know, investing for the long run.

Um, it's sort of a an ambiguous uh statement, but you know, third the 30 to 50 years as how far have the actuaries run uh their stress tests of the system out. But realistically, I

think we can only hope to remotely know what the world is going to look like 5 to 10 years from now. So, that tends to be uh our planning horizon. And with

what's going on right now, it's it's wait and see because it's really not worth it from our perspective to make, you know, major changes in asset allocation in a in an environment like this because you could end up just sort

of be chasing your tail. So until we really know what the uh the final policies look like, not just trade, not just immigration, um but also tax policy, uh it's just

difficult at this point in time to really um move one way or the other with any with any conviction. So you're lucky because you've got one big pool of assets, Jonathan. You have two distinct

assets, Jonathan. You have two distinct groups. You've got a frozen DB with a

groups. You've got a frozen DB with a limited focus liability. Then you've got DC participants. What how are you

DC participants. What how are you changing or what time horizon? How are

you working with that? Yeah. Uh let's

start on the defined benefit side. So

the easy answer to the question is the duration of our liabilities is eight and a half years. So that's kind of one answer to the question, but there's another answer to kind of get to somewhere around that range. Delta faces

kind of a barbell decision right now. Uh

not necessarily mutually exclusive, but again, we've been frozen for a long time. We're overfunded today. So I'd

time. We're overfunded today. So I'd

say, you know, kind of the the two end points of the decision that's facing Delta today is one, you know, let's package up some of the assets and some of the liabilities in the relatively short term and let's enter into a risk

transfer agreement with an insurance company. So in that case, you know,

company. So in that case, you know, that's really going to kind of shorten the duration that we're thinking about in terms of the assets. That's one path.

The other path is to kind of think about things more in perpetuity as well and to generate a larger surplus and see if there's ways to use that surplus to

benefit Delta's employees in the, you know, and Delta is the plan sponsor as well. In that case, it becomes, you

well. In that case, it becomes, you know, a multi-deade period kind of time horizon. So, one you got really short,

horizon. So, one you got really short, you know, the other one is kind of long.

You kind of mix those together, you still end up at about that eight and a half. What does that mean practically?

half. What does that mean practically?

Uh we're pretty much at the end of our glide path uh at this point. It's a

little bit different at Delta than at most places, but we're 30% private investments really across the spectrum.

We're 40% hedge funds. We've got some inflation sensitive assets and we trade a uh really a beta overlay that's primarily fixed income to kind of hedge our liabilities. At this point, we've

our liabilities. At this point, we've got to be very thoughtful about what we do on the bond side. So that's the DB.

You know, you've got a little bit of everything. We try to shoot for the

everything. We try to shoot for the middle, really try to generate alpha, and we've got to try to stand ready to either engage with an insurance company pretty soon or really try to maximize,

you know, the value of a surplus over time. 401k, again, you kind of default

time. 401k, again, you kind of default into a a a target date fund, and you guys probably know what those look like, right? So, they tend to be 99% equities

right? So, they tend to be 99% equities when you're young. define that as until when you're 40 or 45 or so and then it'll go from a 100 to more of a 4060

kind of portfolio and a lot of that's on autopilot, right? So, we think hard

autopilot, right? So, we think hard about, you know, does the target date fund does it kind of fit our population?

Can we add a little bit of excess return within the target date fund? We do have an active tier and our only goal on the active tier is to beat benchmarks.

Lupe, how have you changed your perspective from the family office with this kind of volatility? Sure. Well, I I appreciate being part of this group. I

think that the family office space is one that is no longer up and coming. And

how we think about it in the family office space is more about generations, not quarters. So, we already have the

not quarters. So, we already have the competitive advantage that we're thinking about and working with the following generations in terms of how they're thinking about things. So taking

that perspective and the fact that I'm I'm uh very lucky to be working with a very innovative forwardinking principle um

we have the luxury of being able to take a step back and think about how the investments that we're making are not just uh going to give us return for the short and long term but how are they

affecting the societies that we're building. So, we get to take a little

building. So, we get to take a little bit more time. And I think if there is one message that I would want for all of

us here at Milin to to lean into is um when I was a kid, I lost half of the little pieces to uh one of our board

games and I never found the instructions. So, we made it up

instructions. So, we made it up ourselves and we made up our own pieces.

And and that's how I feel that we are right now. we collectively get to make

right now. we collectively get to make up some new pieces and decide how it is that we're going to engage moving forward. I think it's very dangerous

forward. I think it's very dangerous just to continue to look at the uh how has it been done.

Gotcha.

What's changed at UCLA? I mean, in perpetuity and and a five over 5% real now is like an eight. So, what are you guys doing? Yeah, I I you know when you

guys doing? Yeah, I I you know when you you mentioned uh road maps, the first thing that popped in my head was roads, Chris, where we're going. We don't need

roads. Nice. Uh no, we're uh I I think

roads. Nice. Uh no, we're uh I I think look and staying with that sort of metaphor, having a north star is really important with when you're running really any pool of capital, but

especially an institutional pool. And so

for us, you know, looking at that strategic asset allocation and identifying what your core strengths and weaknesses really are. And so for us, look at everyone gets swayed by what's

happening, you know, real time in the market, but ultimately we we really should be thinking in terms of decades with our type of of capital, right? We

we we look at it as we're we're managing uh you know, assets and taking care of students today, but also our students, grandchildren, and we've got to balance that. And so really, it is about look

that. And so really, it is about look Our advantage is that time horizon. Um

being able to maintain sufficient liquidity to meet those obligations.

Take advantage of dislocations when they happen, but really falling back on what is, you know, what are your long-term targets? What do you expect to do

targets? What do you expect to do through a long period of time? We've

been around a little over a hundred years. You know, hopefully we'll be

years. You know, hopefully we'll be around hundreds of years more. We'll go

through all kinds of different economic environments. Um, and you know, that's I

environments. Um, and you know, that's I think that's where we can take advantage versus trying to compete with, you know, all these incredibly smart people that

are reading, you know, what's readouts of, you know, payrolls this this week or next week. So, you know, we haven't

next week. So, you know, we haven't really changed too much. Uh, continue to execute on, you know, the same strategy and I I don't think we'll change terribly much over the next three to six

months. Everybody's staying to the long

months. Everybody's staying to the long term. Jenny, how about you guys? I mean,

term. Jenny, how about you guys? I mean,

there's got to be worry about how medical funding for medical research is going to eb and flow. Will that impact you? Is that changing your asset

you? Is that changing your asset allocation? Um, well, it's absolutely

allocation? Um, well, it's absolutely impacting us. You know, CHOP was founded

impacting us. You know, CHOP was founded in 1855 and I always have that in the back of my mind when I think about time horizons. um we don't necessarily have

horizons. um we don't necessarily have the same luxury of time that we might have had um even a few years ago when we think about our ability to invest in

illquid investments for example and and kind of we started down that road map um which is hard to to pivot from in some ways. Um, having said that, you know, we

ways. Um, having said that, you know, we came into this year with a good amount of cash because we knew that there would be um, challenges. The business of health care is quite complex and and

even though I've been with the hospital for um, six and a half years, I feel like I'm still just scratching the surface of that, particularly with all of the developments um, in 2025. And so

we are certainly thinking a lot about coordinating with our departments across the hospital the um the issues of grant

making funding that we get um those are critical parts parts of our business. So

I think um I think it was 2021 when Adam Grant came out with a book called think again and that is what that's what we're doing a lot of. we're um testing

ourselves in terms of are we asking the right questions? Are we asking better

right questions? Are we asking better questions? You know, um who are we

questions? You know, um who are we having conversations with that force us to um think more about our blind spots and

um make better decisions. So while we don't have any fullcale changes in asset allocation because we've intentionally created a model that is very flexible um when we are thinking about what's

happening in the next two weeks the next two months but the next two years we have we do have to approach it differently.

So everybody's going to just take the long term, which I appreciate, kind of ride through this. In this environment though, we're seeing some unique shifts.

Um, obviously changes in the dollar.

We've heard a lot of comments about weakness uh in the dollar, where that will go against the euro, other currencies, and then for all of you, you're US, non- US. So give us an idea

of are you going to change your position in terms of FX and are you going to change your either your equity or just your portfolio waiting of US versus non

US. So Jonathan, why don't you tell us

US. So Jonathan, why don't you tell us about your two worlds? Yeah, so you know we've been we've been forced to kind of think about these things for a while now. I will say I I do feel like a

now. I will say I I do feel like a regime a regime shift is underway in the investing world that could weigh on the returns of assets and on bonds and drive a positive correlation between stocks

and bonds. But you know I've mentioned

and bonds. But you know I've mentioned as as I went through the objectives you know objectives I want to make 7% this year I want to make 7% next year. You

know that's had an impact on the way that the portfolio looks and I walk through the asset allocation a little bit. Uh we've got a 10% allocation to

bit. Uh we've got a 10% allocation to public equities. You know that's it. Uh

public equities. You know that's it. Uh

and that's by design, right? Because

equities come with a lot of volatility and even if you like equities, there's a chance that equities could be down pretty substantially. Uh so we don't

pretty substantially. Uh so we don't rely on equities that much for our return. We do have privates and I think

return. We do have privates and I think Chris has got a I don't know which versions he tore up over there, but there might be a question um on privates coming up. So I mean there's still

coming up. So I mean there's still economic exposure that comes through the privates. Uh the biggest thing that

privates. Uh the biggest thing that we're doing as a result of kind of some of the events in the world is really thinking through our fixed income portfolio. Fixed income is important for

portfolio. Fixed income is important for a corporate pension because it helps us manage our liabilities and manage you know what we call our funded status volatility. How much different our

volatility. How much different our assets look from our liabilities. We're

actually willing to take a little more variability with respect to our liabilities today because if you're if we find ourselves in a stagflationary world that's going to drive up yields and that's going to

drive down the return on assets. That's

our biggest single risk factor. We look

a little bit different from a lot of folks on that in that equities is not our dominant risk factors. It's actually

interest rates that are that's our dominant risk factor. So we have brought down our asset duration a little bit. So

we've kind of moved out of this is at the margin right we've moved some out of long duration treasuries we've moved some out of 10 to 20 treasuries kind of into one to three treasuries we've diversified our treasury exposure by

putting in some some mortgage back you know kind of exposure there as well uh and even on the private on the private market side and this is a very slowmoving ship particularly in today's

distribution environment we're trying to bring down private equity a little bit we're trying to bring up private credit a little bit and Um, when it comes to the 401k, it really is it's the glide.

It's the predetermined glide path of the target date fund. We don't deviate from that. We don't uh trade tactically

that. We don't uh trade tactically around that. You know, that that could

around that. You know, that that could be you. I would love to hear you know

be you. I would love to hear you know thoughts from the audience if you know if there's a better way uh you know is the primary retirement vehicle for for folks in the future. But that's you know that's Delta. Well, as you said, you're

that's Delta. Well, as you said, you're worried about lawsuits. So, you want to stick with the crowd. And I want to point out they put that up on the screen a minute ago, the QR code. The panel is going to allow time for questions for

Q&A. And I'll have the iPad up here, so

Q&A. And I'll have the iPad up here, so feel free to scan that and and fire up some questions. Lupe, you guys, I assume

some questions. Lupe, you guys, I assume are are based in a base currency of the peso. How are you looking at the dollar

peso. How are you looking at the dollar and No, sir, we are not. Yeah.

The big difference between the family office and perhaps the holding companies. Okay. But how are you looking

companies. Okay. But how are you looking at uh your global exposure in terms of are you changing the waiting away from the US?

We we're not shying away from from the US. Um

US. Um the United States still the United States and we expect that it will continue to be the United States for the foreseeable future.

Um where we've shifted is really looking at structured deals and cash flow assets.

We we're also um focusing on things with deep trends that are bringing together uh technologies

with geopolitical issues um think uh border security

um supply chain uh nearshoring. So we

see it less as a nationto-nation perspective and more of how is the globe shifting in terms of how things are

shifting products and services. Um

gotcha gotcha Justin how about you guys?

Yeah. So, I guess two two areas. I look,

we we've always had probably uh I would call it a 6040 split between the US and non US, which is kind of closeish to what global equities are, but it's not

really I I would say I'm aware of that, but we're not necessarily targeting one shift or another. But I think if you dig down a little bit deeper into it, what

we end up with is a pretty significant overweight to non US equities in our public equity portfolio where And did you have that coming into 25? Uh we've

well we've had that for about uh you know a decade plus as long as we've had the endowment but that's uh or the the investment company. Um but again that's

investment company. Um but again that's in the public equity portfolio but in the I I look at it as a total pool where we we pick up a lot of US exposure in

our private markets and illquid assets and you know we just think that like the US is a much deeper financial market with a lot more kind of tools available

to us in more kind of esoteric financial products um that we can't get necessarily in the same way in Asia or Europe but the US

equity market is a lot more efficient.

There's a lot less opportunity for alpha. So, we'll spend our sort of time

alpha. So, we'll spend our sort of time and effort in public equities in non- US markets. I think just touching on some

markets. I think just touching on some of the things that other panelists have said, you know, one of the things I, you know, I said at the start, we're always going to have a pretty significant bias

towards equities in our pool. However,

uh you know, again, when rates are getting a little bit higher, if we can start picking up returns that are, you know, attractive enough for our hurdle rate, you know, once we get above that

hurdle rate, a low volatility is really important to us because we're paying out every, you know, every quarter. Um, so,

you know, we've done a lot in the last couple of years in the credit and fixed income space. a lot for us, meaning

income space. a lot for us, meaning going from, you know, almost 0% of the endowment to probably in and around 10% or so has been into into those where, you know, we're picking up, you know,

our required rate of return higher up in the capital structure. Fixed income has a return. Jenny, how about you? So, it I

a return. Jenny, how about you? So, it I think it's a really exciting time to think outside of the US and historically we have been quite US biased in exposure

in the portfolio. um potentially we will have we are in the midst of a a regime change and and that often can bring interesting opportunities. So I think

interesting opportunities. So I think you know we're revisiting kind of relationships with non- US partners um that we've known for a while that and and more interested in having

conversations with ones that um are new with with different perspectives. I

think the opportunity set has beencome more interesting than certainly I've I've experienced in recent times.

Edwin. Yeah, I'll answer. It's a

three-prong policy, then maybe some things we've been doing tactically uh and then private markets. So,

before I joined SWIB, it had made the decision to uh eliminate the US home bias in the public equity exposure and all of the non- US exposure uh was

unhedged in terms of the currency hedging. and that didn't look like a

hedging. and that didn't look like a very good decision for many many many years. Uh but that's really uh worked uh

years. Uh but that's really uh worked uh in our favor uh particularly over the last uh three or four months. So it's on the policy side on the more tactical side you know again not predicting what

was going to have actually you know actually happened to the beginning of this year we had been carrying uh you know modest underweight to US public

equity uh for valuation reasons and had also been uh already leaning a bit against the dollar uh and again both of those have have really helped us in the

last three or four months and then I'd say on the private side and private equity in private debt uh compared to sort of a global index uh representing

those asset classes. We kind of had always been a bit overweight Europe and the US at the expense of the other part of the rest of the world which is Asia and uh in the current

environment we're we're taking a closer look at uh actually you know increasing and exploring the opportunities in in Europe. Okay.

Europe. Okay.

So, one of the big changes that has happened, um, obviously with all the turmoil about universities and taxation and and different things, for whatever

reason, Yale put up a slice of their venture capital portfolio for sale in the marketplace. I've heard it sold, but

the marketplace. I've heard it sold, but I haven't heard a price.

But my question to you is, you know, a lot of us when I ran Calsters, we had a very mature private equity portfolio, which meant we had a big long tale of very late old funds that we always

debated, should we leverage it and sell it? Should we keep it? What do we do

it? Should we keep it? What do we do with it? But, you know, with Yale and

with it? But, you know, with Yale and maybe Harvard selling a slice of their venture portfolio, are you a buyer or are you interested in selling? And

obviously it depends on the price, but where are you with your private allocation and how are you thinking about changing? Jenny, let's start with

about changing? Jenny, let's start with you. So we're kind of totally around a

you. So we're kind of totally around a third private in the portfolio mostly in mostly in private equity. I think it's really interesting to kind of see these um transaction transactions come to

market. It will be I'm I'm quite anxious

market. It will be I'm I'm quite anxious to hear about the pricing um of some of them and I think it just creates more activity for the rest of us to consider

as you know options. So we're we're not um buyers necessarily at this time. We

would we might be sellers if if anything. Um but I've been thinking

anything. Um but I've been thinking about secondary sales in the portfolio uh for quite some time and never have not quite gotten there yet. So so we'll have to see. there are other levers that

um maybe priorities that we would do first but it is quite an interesting development. So Edwin I heard you put a

development. So Edwin I heard you put a bid in did it get hit?

Not sure. So um background uh we've been on a strategic path to meaningfully increase our footprint in privates from

where we were five or six years ago.

uh one of the you know keys of course to risk managing that is to have vintage diversification. So with what's going on

diversification. So with what's going on we haven't really been altering um our commitment paths uh meaningfully. Um and

yeah at the right price we're we're buyers at this point because we're still not quite at the uh our aspiration in terms of our total private exposure.

We're currently at about 30%. We're

looking uh to get to what we would think be would be an equilibrium somewhere between 33 and 35%. So, Okay. Yeah. And

Jonathan, I mean, the DB, you said you're a little bit of everything. So,

you I assume you do have some private equity in there. Would you be a a buyer or sell it? Yeah. Uh, so I'll start out with I'm still a believer in private equity. I don't think US private equity

equity. I don't think US private equity is going to be immune if there's kind of a rerating of public equities. But I

think obviously there's been a flood of money in and we know that there's a lot of you know kind of increasingly retail money that's coming in that'll probably erode some of the uh excess return that

we've seen from uh from privates over publiclix. But I still I still think

publiclix. But I still I still think private equity is going to do well. I

think private equity does better than private credit. Maybe not as much better

private credit. Maybe not as much better as it has in years past. Um still a believer in private real assets as well.

Now, you've kind of run into some of the pension dynamics that we talked about earlier, which is there's a chance I'm going to have to engage in a uh transaction with an insurance company.

Insurance companies like to match liabilities. They've got a lot of um you

liabilities. They've got a lot of um you know, regulations that require them to.

So, what do they like? They like cash.

They like physical bonds. What do they not like? They really don't like private

not like? They really don't like private equity. They don't like private real

equity. They don't like private real asset kind of stuff. So, I'd either have to take a uh a discount on pricing from the insurance company or I'd have to engage in a secondary transaction as

well. So, we've got to think pretty long

well. So, we've got to think pretty long and hard. You know, one of the factors,

and hard. You know, one of the factors, it didn't used to be the case, but one of the factors we have to use now with our private uh with our private market commitment budget is what do we think the resale value is going to be? And

what Chris is talking about, you know, on the on the caler side, the long tail, the really old long tail that gets terrible pricing like almost regardless

of what the environment is. You're

talking 65, 70, 72 cents or something like that. Venture capital also gets

like that. Venture capital also gets lousy pricing pretty much consistently.

Sometimes it'll be better than others.

And yes, it depends on the quality of the portfolio and some of the brand names that you might be able to sprinkle in there. But we invested in LP

in there. But we invested in LP secondaries for a very long time. 2025

we had to stop because, you know, the resale value just isn't there. That'd be

too big of a hit. I think there's something to be said for running a private portfolio as long as you can, harvesting that premium as long as you can. And if you've got to sell a private

can. And if you've got to sell a private high quality private equity portfolio in the secondary market for 90 cents, 80 87 cents, you I think maybe that that

works. But yeah, we're definitely not a

works. But yeah, we're definitely not a buyer today. A little bit unfortunately.

buyer today. A little bit unfortunately.

It's nice, right? I want to make 7% this year. The nice thing with secondaries,

year. The nice thing with secondaries, you buy at a discount, you get to monetize that discount, you know, as soon as you bring it on your books, right? So, it's nice that, you know,

right? So, it's nice that, you know, kind of you get a a sugar high from that. I would love to be a buyer. I

that. I would love to be a buyer. I

can't be, but I sure hope I'm not a seller either. Yeah. And sugar highs

seller either. Yeah. And sugar highs don't last a long time, though. That's

the challenge. I'll worry about that next. What about you?

next. What about you?

So, we're huge uh proponents of of private capital, venture capital and private equity. In the private equity

private equity. In the private equity space, there are a couple of firms that are offering a slightly different take to to private equity. And because as as

many families, we're still operators.

And so, when you look at who are you going to sell your company to, private equity is really the only option. But

for operators, it's not generally the best option. So there are a couple of

best option. So there are a couple of groups. One that was spun out by uh uh

groups. One that was spun out by uh uh Tracy Britt uh who left Birkshshire.

Another one called uh Crane out of uh New York and London. And they're

offering really interesting a really interesting model for for a private equity-like play. So we're participating there. On

play. So we're participating there. On

the venture side, uh we actually spun out our own fund called 1200 VC in order for us to merge together some of the things that we've been talking about

from the Gen Z perspective of what they want to do, what kind of a world they want to build, what kind of companies they want to invest in. from the

principal perspective who's very much um a believer of very traditional uh business models and companies. So our

we have decreased our amount of play in the public portfolios and continue to increase in the private markets. We also

um take pride in being a value added LP where we play a lot of uh hands-on uh roles within the industries that we

invest in. So

invest in. So we believe the future is in the privates.

Well certainly a huge percentage of the market is now private. Justin, how about UCLA? What are you guys doing? Yeah, I

UCLA? What are you guys doing? Yeah, I

mean so a couple things on on the private side that I I I think are worth touching on just at a very high level you know not every asset class has a

very different sort of um characteristic right so not all privates are the same uh you know an early stage seedstage venture capital fund is going to have a much much much longer duration than you

know private credit or something like that so I think we can manage if we have a very diversified set of asset types close to 50% of our assets in draw down

vehicles, but you know that's with a target of let's call it about a third in private equity and venture capital. um

you know we're in a different and I'll come to the secondary piece as part of this but when I speak to a lot of my peers we're in a very different situation when than when I speak to them

in that this year in our private equity portfolio and we're on a June to June fiscal year uh we've actually seen more distributions than calls good in our in

our private equity portfolio across illquids we've got about a 40% increase in distributions yearon and we're getting distributions that are

somewhat uh on the order of what we saw in 2021 and 2022, okay, for the fiscal year. So, we don't quite seem to have

year. So, we don't quite seem to have the same liquidity challenges that we're seeing other people do. Part of that, I think, is we have a pretty idiosyncratic

approach and we're looking at a much smaller section, at least on the private equity side of the market than a lot of our peers. Um, we're typically focusing

our peers. Um, we're typically focusing on private equity firms that are buying sub10 million dollar EBIDA businesses, which is a very different risk profile.

Um, but it when we see these secondary transactions, uh, to me it feels a little bit like we'd be the dog chasing after the car. like I don't know what we do when we actually catch the car

because most of the things we see there in the secondary market are portfolios of managers that we're not necessarily targeting. Yeah. And so we don't really

targeting. Yeah. And so we don't really know those companies, those portfolios, why why would we be buying it? So that's

kind of the way we look at it. I think

that was our big concern all the time was a proliferation of names. All of a sudden we have that many more and that's a lot of leg work. Let me go down each of you. You know, when I look at this

of you. You know, when I look at this plan that we had, we had three two to three% GDP forecast for 25. We thought

everything was going to be slow. It was

still the mag seven, but you know, the the bloom was off of those stocks starting in late December. Now, all of a sudden, we've had a negative quarter of

GDP. We've had, at least so far since

GDP. We've had, at least so far since liberation day or whatever it was called, you know, very little activity commercially. Now you have another month

commercially. Now you have another month where there's so much uncertainty. So

I'm not seeing any M&A activity.

Companies are not making any long-term decisions. I've heard different

decisions. I've heard different forecasts here at Milin about what second quarter GDP will be, but how have you had to shift in terms of, you know,

you're having a long-term focus, but right now we have a lot of things in front of us before we get to June. You

got to pass. Let me get this right. Is

it wait this way? The big beautiful bill.

uh has to it passed now. I I thought it was May. Now apparently it's 4th of

was May. Now apparently it's 4th of July. So the deadline moves. You've got

July. So the deadline moves. You've got

70 uh treaties to negotiate. I guess

they claim 15 16 will be announced shortly. As Ed and I were talking those

shortly. As Ed and I were talking those are going to beus at best. We agree to agree to talk more. I don't know how that's a trade agreement. Um when I look

out at that landscape, I don't know what to do between now and June. Do you you know do you put are you just sticking to the long course or anybody making a portfolio shift? Lupe I'll start with

portfolio shift? Lupe I'll start with you. We h are not making a portfolio

you. We h are not making a portfolio shift. We've been operating under these

shift. We've been operating under these circumstances uh with things shifting outside of the US continuously.

uh we've had more experience with this type of volatility in other places uh where we are kind of waiting and seeing

is what do my colleagues do because what they do what's happening that you described at the universities well that's going to put in an entire new uh group of opportunities into the market

so we'll wait and see Jonathan you undeterred uh no definitely deterred right but you know again we we've derised the

portfolios quite a bit I'll walk through some of the the changes we've made earlier in terms of bringing down duration a little bit you kind of diversifying the the bond mix a little bit but you know we still need return

right we still need return now we need return next year um so you know I've increase you know kind of the the percent chance of a stagflationary environment so is there stuff that does

well in a stagflationary environment you know historically precious metals have done Well, I mean, obviously, gold's been on a tear for three years. Maybe

it's a little bit overdone at these levels, but you know, broadly speaking, if we do find low growth, high inflation, precious metals tend to do well. Infrastructure investments tend to

well. Infrastructure investments tend to do well. You know, kind of stuff tends

do well. You know, kind of stuff tends to do well. Residential real estate, you know, some pockets of commercial real estate, I know this, you know, this time's a little bit different uh around there. So, you know, we are trying to

there. So, you know, we are trying to shift a little bit more into uh assets that could benefit from a stagflationary environment. And a lot of that's kind of

environment. And a lot of that's kind of based on the uh on the lending side as well. So infrastructure lending, resi

well. So infrastructure lending, resi lending, commercial real estate lending, maritime lending, aviation lending, NAV lending on funds that do this kind of

stuff. Uh we uh we do effectively run a

stuff. Uh we uh we do effectively run a lever portfolio. Our asset allocation

lever portfolio. Our asset allocation sums up to 140%. Um, so I don't think it's a good, you know, I think it's probably a good time to cut the amount of kind of leverage and exposure that

we've got to things that will, you know, really struggle in a economic contraction or below normal growth environment. But I think there's room

environment. But I think there's room for us to kind of increase a little bit on real assets and lending behind real assets. Edwin, you've had the ability to

assets. Edwin, you've had the ability to add leverage. Are you backing off? Where

add leverage. Are you backing off? Where

are you at? Um we're taking a wait and see approach but you know we have a lot of flexibility um with what we do both from the bottom

up and and top down. So um we're just looking you know looking for dislocations and and we because we don't know what will happen between now and the end of June or even I think further

on from that. Um, and that's just kind of historical who we've done. Again,

from the top down, stand ready to take advantage of any major dislocation from an asset class standpoint and then rely on our internal active managers and our external managers to take advantage of

any any kind of dislocation on a individual security basis and and everybody has that flexibility to be able to react. So, I'd say we're just more in reactive mode at this point.

Yeah, Jenny. U so we have a a quarter of our portfolio in passive equities. Um

and I think while we are not spending time trying to be predictive ourselves, it's been really fascinating to hear from our managers how they are factoring

in and modeling potentially, you know, changes in in the impact of tariffs. Um,

and I think it's a real test for the opportunistic folks to prove that they're really opportunistic. And um,

it's it's um it'll, you know, time will tell, right?

Where where the dust uh the dust settles, but there will be clear beneficiaries, I think, and and then those on the other side, and that's what we're we're kind of spending our time

on.

I'm I'm a terrible market timer. So,

I've just asked all my AI models to tell me what I should do over the next two months. That's why every time I ask

months. That's why every time I ask them, it says it can't predict the future, but it can identify trends. No,

I you know, I I again I think so we think of ourselves as asset owners. Um

we my team hears me say all the time, I want us to make sure that we're underwriting whether it's private or public things with cash flows. We can't

control where price goes, but if we're good business analysts through our managers, but also understanding what our managers are doing and how they're thinking, that's the best guard we have

against uncertainty because even if the price of those highquality businesses are going down, if they are antifragile enough as businesses, they will be getting stronger in that environment. So

again, it's it's more trying to look through and really understanding what you own and why you own it more than trying to trying to predict. I like

there are some people who get macro really really right. It's definitely not me. It's definitely not our team. Um and

me. It's definitely not our team. Um and

we're not going to sit there and try and compete with with people who are good at that. Gotcha. Well, I've got several

that. Gotcha. Well, I've got several questions here about hedge funds. So,

let's do some rapid fire. Tell me your if you have a hedge fund, an allocation to hedge funds, how much of percent of the assets? And are you uh uh going to

the assets? And are you uh uh going to be adding to that, subtracting or holding steady? Lupe, let's start with

holding steady? Lupe, let's start with you. We don't invest in hedge funds.

you. We don't invest in hedge funds.

And any interest or still nothing? No,

not a buyer. Not a buyer.

Yep. Uh so I mentioned that you know Delta by you know from one perspective you know we lever the plan and the asset allocation sums to 140%. That's because

we've got 40% in hedge funds. We really

don't view hedge funds as an asset class. We view it as a more efficient

class. We view it as a more efficient way to take active risk. So we by and large do not do long traditional long only equity. We generally do not do

only equity. We generally do not do traditional long only fixed income. We

trade derivatives kind of in a portable alpha context. Set aside some cash. The

alpha context. Set aside some cash. The

rest is in hedge funds. So we've got, you know, kind of a 40% targeted allocation of hedge funds. We tend to run a very diversified book. Since I'm

deacto, you know, borrowing money through the derivative markets to fund that. I need my hedge funds to beat the

that. I need my hedge funds to beat the borrowing cost. have been able to do

borrowing cost. have been able to do that uh net of all fees by 300 basis points annualized over the last 10 to 11 years. But you know we want you negative

years. But you know we want you negative skew degrossing events that worries me right. So we run about a 40 or 50 fund

right. So we run about a 40 or 50 fund portfolio and we've got uh relative value including fixed income relative value which has been a little bumpy over the last couple of months. We've got,

you know, the pod shops, we've got multistrats, we've got trading managers, we've got equity, uh, you know, long short. Um, we've got a little bit of

short. Um, we've got a little bit of credit that we put in the portfolio as well. Uh, but we really view and we want

well. Uh, but we really view and we want it to be pretty pure, right? We want

kind of a beta 0.15.1 or less. We want

the returns to come from skill. We try

to, you know, hedge funds are hugely expensive, but at least the managers are quite aligned with you. Um, so we have a 40% allocation to hedge funds. It's a

huge part of what we do. We expect 120 basis points of alpha at the overall plan level in terms of the hedge funds outperforming the borrowing cost. That's

a big piece of how we get to 7%. So 120

over borrowing costs, not cash. Well,

right. And that's on 40%, right? So I

want I want to I want my 40% to beat the borrowing cost by four percentage points. I got to put aside 25% cash. So

points. I got to put aside 25% cash. So

I've only got 75% hedge funds. So

that'll give me index plus three on 40% of the portfolio. There's your 120 basis points. Man, that's complexity. Good for

points. Man, that's complexity. Good for

you. Edwin, hedge fun. Yep. Similar but

not exactly the same as you just heard.

So again, we don't consider them an asset class. We consider them active

asset class. We consider them active strategies. And in that spirit, we run

strategies. And in that spirit, we run and have been running for years you what we call or the industry call an alpha beta overlay. So we have an alpha pool

beta overlay. So we have an alpha pool and that's where our hedge fund book sits. It's eight or nine billion in

sits. It's eight or nine billion in nominal terms about 7% uh of the uh portfolio and and very similar. You

know, we have to um finance that uh and our funds have or the the book overall has done very well. You know, I was I was a little bit dubious and nervous

when the Fed embarked on a very rapidly fairly rapid increase in that uh cost of borrowing that the the book would face and it's just done a great job over the

last three years. Last year uh the book as a whole um outperformed the cost of financing by about 600 basis points and again that's with very little if any

market uh market beta included. And uh

we're looking to keep that It's stable now in terms of the um overall allocation from a from a risk standpoint. Awesome, Jenny. So, we are

standpoint. Awesome, Jenny. So, we are around 10% I would say, but similar like in in kind of the the typical hedge fund structure that could tick up. I think

the bar is higher. Um you know, our performance to date in that area has been mixed. So, I think we're a bit um

been mixed. So, I think we're a bit um gunshy, if you will, about adding there.

But but I started kind of earlier in my career in hedge funds. So I have a love for and a belief for them. Um but I think it's a tough it's it's maybe an easier place to be a more attractive

place to to be on that side um these days versus maybe last few years. So I

could see us ticking up a little bit.

Okay, Justin. Yes. So when I got to UCLA, there were about 40% of the assets were what I guess one would call hedge funds. Today that's uh probably 10 to

funds. Today that's uh probably 10 to 12%. Um, uh, I think some of the

12%. Um, uh, I think some of the smartest investors I've come across inside of hedge funds, but given what our objectives are and the multiple asset classes we have to do it, uh, I I

just don't see why they they make a huge fit in our portfolio. Um, we tend to see in those for, you know, maybe we're just bad at picking them, but uh, high

correlation to markets, uh, low beta, uh, illquid illquid assets. So if even if they do their job, we can't really rebalance. Um you know, I don't know. I

rebalance. Um you know, I don't know. I

mean, even in something like portable alpha, I feel like we can carry at over, you know, over 120 basis points on like investment grade CLOS's that are pretty

low volt. So putting together a whole

low volt. So putting together a whole portfolio of hedge funds is just it's a lot of work for us interested in doing other things. So, I've got two questions

other things. So, I've got two questions on here about markets that you're excited about and the question of uh there's a chance of a 50% recession this

year. Let's just do a rapid fire. I'm

year. Let's just do a rapid fire. I'm

going to give you an asset class. Tell

me if you're a buyer, a seller, or just monitor, but not longwinded answers. So,

Justin, I'm going to start with you.

We'll go down the panel. First one,

cryptocurrencies, specifically Bitcoin. No, the monitor.

specifically Bitcoin. No, the monitor.

Monitor. I I yeah I I like cash flow. So

we don't own gold in the portfolio either. So we won't own it. Jenny

either. So we won't own it. Jenny

monitor from a direct exposure perspective.

Edwin, don't buy it for one second. Uh

you know, if we're not willing to have gold in the portfolio as a matter of policy, not willing to have Bitcoin.

However, um we have some teams internally been that have been taking advantage of the fact that it's obvious that many investors don't actually understand how the vehicles that give

them access to Bitcoin actually work and been able to take advantage of that um and make some some some money on uh what we consider arbitrage. Okay. Yeah, we've

got a pinky toe in that pool, but that's it, right? Uh Bitcoin's been really

it, right? Uh Bitcoin's been really surprising over the last month or so, right? We saw the price go from 109 down

right? We saw the price go from 109 down to 78 and that felt about right. Uh but

then when everything else was falling except for gold, you also saw Bitcoin have a pretty strong rally from, you know, we got from 78 to 96 or so. So we

have one, you know, this is one hedge fund that scaled at about 50 basis points of plan assets and it's a diversified play. It's Bitcoin plus

diversified play. It's Bitcoin plus arbitrage. That's a space that I like,

arbitrage. That's a space that I like, but it really hasn't done as well as I would have thought with as much, you know, kind of growth in that space. You

would think that there's some inefficiency in pricing there. We

haven't been able to exploit that all that much. And then some venture capital

that much. And then some venture capital plays as well. So we've got a pinky toe in the in the pool. I don't know if we ever get any more than that. Lupe, uh,

duck out as always. We have a strategy called Alpha to Omega where that we started to play in almost four years ago as specifically directed at crypto and

blockchain. Big believers.

blockchain. Big believers.

Um other than that we as I said earlier we we really are investing behind mega trends things that are going to go on beyond the election election cycles like

uh nearshoring in Mexico uh digitization of a lot of traditional industries uh in particular healthcare.

Okay mega trends. All right one more fire round uh an odd question. US real

estate buyer, seller, neutral. It's a

big asset class. Well, I'm going from tang intangible bitcoin to tangible.

Yeah, buyer. A buyer. I thought you were going to ask the short questions, but but this ties in. So, um Well, you could short it. A seller of healthcare reets.

short it. A seller of healthcare reets.

Okay, Edwin, selective buyer, you know, willing to to increase uh again our overall exposure, but it has to be at the right price.

Uh buyer as well, you know, if there is stagflation, it's not great for stocks.

It's not great for nominal bonds. It

could be good for tips. It could be good for real estate buyer.

Is that a mega trend, Lupe? Yeah,

absolutely adore real estate both in being a buyer and a lender. Wow, that's

very interesting. All right, you have to pick between two currencies. Do you want to be long the yen or the euro? Justin

uh euro euro no question euro gota talk our book yen oh it's way undervalued from any fundamental

perspective relative I mean the the euro is as well but yen's definitely in the short term I think the euro is overdone I'm going to go yen

yen's bigger bigger undervalued I agree all right one more challenge Uh and then next in 2025 and we asked

this question last evening of the young uh rising stars from now to the end of 25

is the S&P going to be higher or lower or you can pick neutral. Where are we at right now? 57 I think so. I haven't

right now? 57 I think so. I haven't

looked at the market today. Uh yeah, say like same plus or minus five.

Yeah, slightly positive. Yeah, a little maybe up a little bit. You can you can have a long a wild ride between now and then.

Tad higher. Tad.

I'm an old school top down valuation person. It's got to be lower.

person. It's got to be lower.

Yeah, it's a probably a sucker bet, but I'm lower as well.

I would also say lower.

Okay. So, I've got a couple specific questions to SWIB and Delta. How do you determine your required rate of return?

Is it driven by your underlying asset mix or your growth and liabilities?

I could take that. the uh the assumed rate or the actuarial rate of return is actually determined by um our sister organization that administer actually administer you we're an investment board

so we have a different organization that does the admin pension administration and they have a they have an actuarial consultant and um that's that's essentially where that where that comes

from y so formally it's set by the plan sponsor it's set by delta so we just you know have we have a long sit down with the company and they're like, "Okay, how much funded status risk? How much, you

know, contribution risk do we find, you know, do we face if we try to get a 9% return? How about an 8% return? How

return? How about an 8% return? How

about a 7% return?" And we just kind of triangulated. You know, it can vary a

triangulated. You know, it can vary a little bit certainly depending on what bond yields are at the time. Um, but we settled in at seven and seven feels pretty good.

Ours is set by the family and their liquidity needs over the period of time.

I I would like to say to your prior question, one of the reasons I'm looking at having the year end a little bit lower, we have a great analyst and she's been spot on the last couple of years on

so many things and one of them is um you know, we've been in a recession according to her for some time that I would I would agree and for us to get out of where we are there's a lot of

different things that have to shift. We

don't see those things shifting. There

you go. All right, another fire round question. This came from somebody on the

question. This came from somebody on the iPad. Uh, you've got a choice between

iPad. Uh, you've got a choice between long term, so not just this year, but long term. Rather be long, Europe or

long term. Rather be long, Europe or China?

Justin, uh, am I am I a US institution? You,

yes, you are.

uh because I don't know what the yeah I don't know what the regulatory environment is going to be but uh look Chinese assets are really cheap regulatory environment of course will

play a huge factor um maybe a little a little longer China long term Edwin I'd say longer term I mean again

talking our book we're tilting versus policy we have a bit of a tilt into EM versus uh versus US and versus uh

Europe. So, um over that longer term, uh

Europe. So, um over that longer term, uh China.

All right, I'm going to take a quick break here because, you know, this is my first milkin ever. I'm excited to be here. It's great to be here. I know

here. It's great to be here. I know

there's a lot of great minds, a lot of great thinkers out there. I tried to set up a little bit, you know, kind of in the intro some of the things that Delta is thinking about and is there a way to improve the retirement readiness of our

employees. So, if anyone's out there,

employees. So, if anyone's out there, Delta Delta puts a billion three into the 401k plan. That's the employer contribution into the 401k plans, a billion three per year. Is it the best

thing to just put it into the 401k plan with the fully funded, overfunded, long frozen pension plan? There might be an opportunity to shift some of that surplus to, you know, kind of augment

kind of a hybrid retirement plan. Would

love to talk to anybody about that if there's folks with thoughts out there.

Uh back to the question, it's a really tough question because I don't really like either all that much, but I think the flow through of Chinese growth to the um appreciation of Chinese assets

has just been very poor historically. I

worry about a topdown centralized kind of decision-making structure. Europe has

got a lot of its own problems that I think stands in the way of multiples and that kind of thing. But, you know, given the choice, I'd go Europe over over China.

So uh our uh head of our pension fund uh Mr. Bayz is here in the first uh table.

I recommend you chat with him a little bit about your question. And we we have been u fans of China for some time. Uh

we continue to be fans of China and I like to say that Mexico we are the world's amigo.

Very good. any asset class that you're excited about? And you can answer no,

excited about? And you can answer no, but we've got less than a minute left.

So Justin, I'll start with you. Yeah, I

mean, we're we're excited about pretty much all of our asset classes. There's

always something to do inside of all those like you can find returns across the board. So there's nothing that you

the board. So there's nothing that you know. Yeah, we're excited about every

know. Yeah, we're excited about every all the opportunities coming up. All

right. I guess biotech would be a huge a huge area, but I think I'm super excited about that. also super excited I mean

about that. also super excited I mean maybe not surprising about biotech the innovation is incredible because things seem overall a little bit you know kind of highly priced if I look

at it from an asset class perspective I have to think about it maybe from a alpha potential generating uh standpoint and it's still the case that places like

uh non US small cap are are relatively inefficient markets as are um you know the China ashare market and so I think that's those are the most exciting places. I think from at least from an

places. I think from at least from an alpha perspective, there's certainly a chance I'm just getting crankier in my old age, but I'm excited about the least amount of stuff that I can ever remember

in my career. Wow, Lupe.

Well okay.

I'm actually uh extremely excited, believe it or not, in impact investing.

And as I think about what's going to happen over the course of the next uh 10 to 20 years in the transition of capital

between one generation and another and generally one gender and another. These

folks really care about clean water. They really care about a

clean water. They really care about a lot of things that you know people my age have really not been focused on. And

I think it's gone from being a fad to something that will be very serious.

So that's where I'm at. I hope you're true. Put your hands together. Thank the

true. Put your hands together. Thank the

panel for their time and and their interesting comments.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.