Masculinity + Money | MENtality with Ebuka: ft Banky W, Seun Kuti & Noble Igwe

In this episode, I'll be sitting with two bold voices, artist and activist Shon and Nikolu [music] Lakuzi and creative entrepreneur Noble Iguay.

Together, we'll unpack the pressures, pride, and pitfalls of being a [music] man in the masculinity and money conversation.

>> You guys are welcome.

>> Thank you, sir.

>> And of course, to you guys uh watching, this is not an interview. It's not a panel. It's just you know men sitting

panel. It's just you know men sitting down and uh having open honest conversations and you're welcome to listening. This is

mentality with a book and you're welcome. I think we should start with a

welcome. I think we should start with a quick uh >> I don't know you know I mean I hear this bad luck to cheers with soft drink water

does the bad luck reflect on you >> not for my chances. Don't worry I'm all right.

my chances. Don't worry I'm all right.

Recently there were rumors of rapture.

[laughter] >> It's supposed to be today now.

>> It was No, it was today or yesterday of rapture.

>> It's 3 p.m. you people are leaving >> because because I know I was making heaven. I was practicing

heaven. I was practicing >> me. I can't even wait for the Christians

>> me. I can't even wait for the Christians to leave. [laughter]

to leave. [laughter] >> Okay.

>> I am happy. I'm happy somebody was.

[laughter] I'm happy somebody said they're coming to get you guys today. But fine. You owe

me to go. [laughter]

You know what I mean? Is that

>> I cannot >> Is that Is that the topic of today's >> I guess I'll see you on the other [laughter] Tik Tok. I'll be following it. So like

Tik Tok. I'll be following it. So like

passionately [laughter] is true but you know we still we'll get into what you have.

>> When I came in I saw bank >> you said oh no it has definitely not happened if I'm still here >> cuz I know Jesus is speaking one Christian the first to go is bank as soon as I saw you [laughter] like amen.

>> That means it has not happened.

So you didn't feel worried when you saw me?

>> No. [laughter]

>> I don't deal with you.

Not possible.

>> Okay. I not

call you outside.

>> What does that mean?

>> No, nobody is going that I'm staying.

>> All right. That means you don't know.

>> Yes.

>> So nobody going outside. You are here.

You are here. I'm not doing this again.

[laughter] No. Anyway, that's not what we're here

No. Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about. We're here to talk about money and men, men and money. Um, the

pressures the everything that we're going through today. That's And they say Nigerian men

today. That's And they say Nigerian men don't talk about their issues. I don't

know if you agree or disagree, but I always just start with a very interesting story cuz sometime this year it was I think in February um we have a family group and an

extended family members video dropped on the group that he was kidnapped.

um he's about I want to say late 20s >> and they showed him video he was tied up and they had put in their request of about 20 something million naira to release him and everything and so there

was of course panic cousins are texting what are we going to do where's the person and then my other brother opens the video and zooms in and start saying

did you see the rope I like what rope and he goes in and we find out he wasn't actually tied.

>> Yeah.

>> What kind of wearing the rope?

>> Long and short of it.

>> Oh my.

>> It turns out he kidnapped himself and wanted to make money off of >> the family. Basically, it's your fault.

Obviously, you're not taking care of that guy.

>> So, was it was this before Big Brother?

>> So, that's the question now because this is on you >> cuz now the question is about the pressures that young people are going through. This happened earlier this year

through. This happened earlier this year and [snorts] not even young people met.

Everybody seems to be and I personally think a lot of the pressure is more from other men consciously or not.

>> There's respect. I think respect in Nigeria is

respect. I think respect in Nigeria is monetary.

>> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> I agree.

>> No matter how >> how you great you are at what you do. Sh

is not nodding. So I guess I'll go to him first. [laughter]

him first. [laughter] >> No matter how great it is you are at what you do, >> how much you get is usually the last question.

>> I don't know if I'm making sense. You're

making I mean it's true but you know the thing is >> life is wealth we're all here to live

right and as we all know like although we are all civilized but the natural instinct of being a

human is what still drives us in that deepest part of our psyche you know so I believe

you know we are here to procreate to multiply because once you drop your genes on earth that's how you secure your

everlastingness your immortality is by your kids cuz they don't have their kids and everybody carries your bloodline.

So everybody wants to have kids and family and procreate and you know but we live in a weird society where okay so young people when I'm saying

this I'm giving this example because of the story you told a young man who is in [snorts] his 20s making his life he doesn't have much you know

has to compete >> for a companion M >> with politicians >> who are shameless >> and rich men

>> who don't have any honor who come down from their perch in their 40s and 50s to compete >> with the 20-year-old girls >> with these young men.

>> So you think a lot of it is heavily about the women >> companionship.

Don't mistake it for like just the women. Oh, I just want to jump into bed.

women. Oh, I just want to jump into bed.

No, >> I just want to clarify. Is that's one of for young men? You're talking about young men, your young cousins. I'm

saying for young men.

>> I still think it's more more older guys.

>> Yeah, I feel it's social media. Social

media is >> it's other guys. These things are in your face now.

>> It's other guys, but it is >> you think it's older.

>> What context?

>> It's in the in the playing field of >> us trying to talk to opposite sex and growing up finding ourselves in this world right?

>> Yeah. And young men are basically told you cannot come into the world if you don't have this this this this.

So they are under that pressure you know they under that pressure you know most people talk about all this love is everything and all that kind of [ __ ] like but young men are not allowed

in Nigeria to experience that emotion >> without money >> without money and not fault of the women so I'm not here to blame young women but young women who are also in the position

that these young men are cuz most of us are from very poor backgrounds I know all of us online are rich.

>> Are we?

>> Everybody in Niger if you look online.

[laughter] >> No, but it's true. If you look online, everybody in Nigeria is rich. I have,

you know, at least, you know, this object poverty we talk about. Where is

it? You know, but >> so I kind of feel like I have a different my my take is bit different from what Sh thinks. I feel like the Nigerian young man is positioned

differently from what is like what he's >> positioned differently.

>> Yeah. From what we get overseas. Okay.

>> So, I was telling someone if you're an African, if you're Nigerian, you can hardly live off your talent.

>> Let me explain what I mean. You know, so overseas, you can be a painter.

>> And it's okay to be a painter. You don't

aspire to be the biggest painter, but you just know that being a painter will make you happy, will provide for you to feed yourself and your small family. You

live in a small house, you can go about your things, and people respect you for who you are. in Nigeria or in Africa because it's maybe because everything has to be paid for in cash. There's that

pressure to be able to have enough of a lot of that cash to be able to do a whole lot of for everything. So where

you know where well it's funny that we're having this discussion in a balo because even when men don't talk men talk in beer palos cuz that's where they see other men they sit down they have conversations.

>> But do we talk about deep stuff? That's

the completely different conversation.

What what we are but but but the thing but the thing is you feel the pressure to provide.

>> Men have been told they have to provide from get go from the moment you are born till you become an adult you know that's why somehow it has this life and and if you

also if in Nigeria where we celebrate what they call like enterprise without some sort of root where if you just have money nobody ask you any sort of question again.

>> Yeah. So that for me is is the real crux of the issue for Nigerians and Africans is this idea that riches are tied to respect. Right? So my wife and I we have

respect. Right? So my wife and I we have two sons.

>> Is it sorry is it African or Nigerian?

Because a lot of African countries like and I don't have the answer here.

>> Global I don't I don't have the answer.

>> That's why I said I don't have the answer but I keep hearing it's a Nigerian thing. Maybe to focus on

Nigerian thing. Maybe to focus on Nigeria cuz that's where we are. That's

but I hear that it's a Nigerian thing.

The Nigerians are materialistic.

Nigerian men are this. Nigerian men are taking everybody's country's girlfriends because we have money and we flash it.

>> So my wife and I were talking about it and you know we we have two sons. My

older son is going to be five soon and it you know the conversation started and we started talking about how in Nigeria this idea that once you have riches no

matter how you got it you are accorded respect like you are an honorable successful role model to society. even

if you got it by stealing money, right?

So, it's not about the process, it's just about the the money that you have at the end of that process.

>> And so, we started saying to ourselves that hey >> when we are, you know, bringing up our sons, it's not just about saying, did you get an A? It's about celebrating the process about saying, oh, I saw you sit

down and do your homework. I saw you, you know, invest the time or the energy so that we we move away from this idea.

thing about it's just results that matter.

>> But do you know why results matter?

>> No, results do matter. But

>> I mean in the eyes of people like when Nigerian people like see a rich man and they're like, "Wow, he's rich."

>> Mhm.

>> Me personally, >> well, you all know my anticedent online.

[laughter] I think everybody knows but in general young people would look up to elders. It is natural

right? So someone is making it somebody

right? So someone is making it somebody has money.

It is not the duty of the people to castigate him and say where did you get the money from? M

>> if all our security agencies, >> you know, when there's a law in the land, you this is one one of the things we always mistake, you know, when we do things in Nigeria that we do mistakenly

like we have agreed as a people and it is codified in our constitution that there are certain things that we don't want.

We don't want arm robbers. We embrace

these things that we're talking about right now. these people that were say we

right now. these people that were say we don't know the they had the equation and the result came about. So here's how many people can actually what I want to say.

>> Yes. I I kind of feel like we're here now because we even if it start from this table we need to correct that impression we can your industry. Yeah.

We cannot indry your industry is like you said is very complicit.

>> Let me say something again. We can't

live in a society where see do you know what is happening right when I was when let me say when I was growing up the idea was if you leave school you get a job >> right you walk your way then decided to do whether you want to do 9 to5 you want

to do your own thing but there's a part that you want to go >> now kids leave school parents buy them computer to join what they call the HKS

>> from the family background >> now they have a lot of young girls who would tell you that they wouldn't date anyone unless they're doing yahoo for instance right now parents have kids who

their boyfriends who obviously don't have a 9 to5 but have a job buy cars and gift them and we all pretend >> so 9 to5 if you have a 95 is fine what

you're saying what I'm saying not can you on this table that the 9 to5 jobs are the ones that are actually more criminal than the yahoo job you're talking about >> I don't know but but what I'm saying so

so okay so before we get what I'm saying we prove Sure. One more time like if >> and I will prove it with numbers.

>> If if as a society why if we don't sit back >> and say that we need to look back stop where we are and reintroduce value in

our society it has to be us. If we keep saying that the go cuz the government [clears throat] people in government people like us banking talking by the grace of God will be in government.

>> Well I'm not in government so don't put me in that don't put me in that discussion. He was going to be govern if

discussion. He was going to be govern if you get into fights.

>> You become No, but if you get into government, you become part of this government that we are pointing at.

>> No, but I guess you Sorry, but is this realistic though? This idea that we can

realistic though? This idea that we can and I want to look at it on a macro level. This thing is deep inside

level. This thing is deep inside >> the Nigerian psych. I feel like a lot of Nigerians know the right thing to do. So

I guess my question is, is it doable for Nigeria to change its value?

>> What is happening in the book? Is that

>> this? I I don't feel like it is. I feel

like it's a long >> poor Nigerians that keep this.

>> It's like decades of >> poor Nigerian keep going.

>> Yes.

>> The poor Nigerian >> in the heart of poor Niger [laughter] that keep this >> No, it's I'm not I'm trying to understand.

>> You see the fact that they've not bombed all your homes first of all.

>> Please, what is wrong? [laughter]

>> Remember you remember >> why did you say your >> our homes? Okay. No, no, no.

>> Bomb rushed our homes.

>> What did I do?

>> Of the big love in their hearts.

>> No, but what did I do?

>> Our homes. I'm involved. I see our our >> I'm not involved.

>> Is that what you think [laughter] during NSA? You see how the island neighborhood

NSA? You see how the island neighborhood started to share food at their gate?

>> Just we actually I was the one that did that. I was one of the organizers. [laughter]

>> Let me ask you a question. M

>> is a man's worth in Nigeria tied to his income earning ability?

>> Yes.

>> Should it be?

>> No.

>> How do we move from that to from one to the other?

>> That's the that's the question I can answer and it goes back to what Noble was saying. I think we all know the

was saying. I think we all know the right thing to do. Value systems need to change. Um I don't know that

change. Um I don't know that cuz I I was watching something recently.

I even had to go on Chipity and ask how many billionaires are in the Scandinavian countries cuz a lot of these countries Norway, Finland, they have the highest they ranked number one in everything standard of living level

of happiness da >> and they do have billionaires right but they there's something they're doing there

>> about placing value on productivity over >> profit over profit Yeah.

>> So they they kind of found a balance between capitalism and socialism and but people find socialism very offensive right >> in Nigeria. I don't even know what >> cuz we're not even are we kleptocratic?

>> No, we are capitalist for the poor and socialist for the rich.

>> Yes. It's almost like kleptocracy doesn't even necessarily define what is happening here cuz and that's what this value system right. Look the regular

person people are offended by Yahoo Yahoo and fraud and I get it but >> until your friend hits no >> you will be very offended I don't have friends until your friend touch 50

million point the leaders cannot even change anything because the corruption like Shu has said is also heavy >> so if you're telling me to stop doing

yahoo while you are money laundering cleaning out the state coffers.

>> Yeah.

>> Why should I listen to >> So the problem the problem is this, right? Is if you continue at the pace

right? Is if you continue at the pace that we're going right at some point, we all look back and find that we have no society.

>> But that's why we're having this conversation now. That's what I'm

conversation now. That's what I'm saying. So back in the day, right, in my

saying. So back in the day, right, in my village, >> if you donate money to the church >> and your source of income is unclear, why is donating money to church?

does not lie to your church anymore.

>> Don't be upset. [laughter]

If you donate money to the church, right, >> and your source of income is unclear, the church will give back.

>> Do they do it now?

>> They don't do it. That's what they don't do it anymore just because everybody's of this thinking to say if the people at the top are doing this and nobody's why should I be the one? Because that's how society goes back like in Lagos for

example we live in Los right where we see people who come to church like you know so somebody's made something something they bring money they give to the church for something something and nobody says oh no we don't want this money even though we know this money is

>> so so so here here's my problem my problem with where we're at in this conversation right now is that it's always very easy to sit down and point

fingers at what's wrong but if there's no you know they say if if you point your fingers someone with the other fingers are pointing back at you. So

where do we go from here?

>> We know that as things stand like Ibuka said h our selfworth and the way society sees men is tied to income however you got it. The fact is do you have it or do

got it. The fact is do you have it or do you not?

>> So then you know where do we go? Do we

just stay here? But you know this is >> before sorry before we get to the where do we go from here I actually want to ask everybody um because you did ask me do I feel like the biggest what was the

question again >> that um is your do you feel like the worth a man's worth do you think that's what income >> in Nigeria is income mostly yes agree

income so now my question to you I want to sort of get a ranking from all of you starting with you and we'll go this way of where you feel the most pressure from family because family pressure is crazy,

>> right? There's an expectation. Some of

>> right? There's an expectation. Some of

you are first sons. You're a first son.

I don't know if are you a >> last child, >> last child, >> middle, >> middle. So, there's there's that's

>> middle. So, there's there's that's >> maybe I'm the one that has >> pressure >> sometimes from the sons to do certain things. Family pressure is there,

things. Family pressure is there, societal pressure is there, spousal pressure. Everybody here is married.

pressure. Everybody here is married.

>> Yeah.

>> Are you >> What do you mean?

>> I just want to be sure now. [laughter]

You know >> we need to be because this is the update but on the daily I'm still married for now. [laughter]

now. [laughter] >> WOW MY current wife >> this is update on the daily. [laughter]

So family society spouse.

>> Yeah.

>> And your guys. Because another thing I've noticed before we get to the answer just just came to me now. There's

>> when you have a friend group, I don't know if you've noticed this, there's a hierarchy.

>> And most times in Nigeria is based on who has the most money. He kind of dictates the vibe of the group.

>> Where are we hanging out? Where are we going?

>> Where are we going to have dinner? Which

beer parlor are we going to? So there's

that hierarchy and the group consciously or not defers to the guy's opinion. We might not be agreeing to that but I want to get your ranking first.

>> I actually agree. I'm laughing because I see >> or my friend >> but these are the things that boys don't talk about but we've never guys don't say these things but we know it that that guy is

the person that ah where would they go?

Okay. Ah where would they go now?

Because he's most likely going to pay.

>> But what's your ranking? family, spouse,

society friends.

>> So, actually the for me the biggest pressure is internal. Oh,

>> I think that but it's influenced by >> but it's influenced by a you know a a mixing fusion of all of these factors but ultimately it's it's internal

because whether it is from your upbringing in the family or in church or religion or whatever position however way you came up there's that expectation

that you have internally as a man to say as a man I have to be successful I have to provide for my family I have to be able to do XYZ and those those things are different for everybody but you do

have that expectation of yourself. So

when you have those seasons because everybody has seasons where most people have seasons where you know it's doing great and some seasons where it's you know your eye red small

>> and in those seasons when you know things are not flowing as well >> me I feel really bad about myself it's not even that my family is putting pressure on me or my spouse or society

or my friend group per se it's just that internally you feel like man I should be doing better than I'm doing now and if you happen to be married with children.

That pressure is is not because they're, you know, your your kids don't know the difference. Like

difference. Like >> my sons just want me to be around.

That's I can be a superhero just by showing up in the room.

>> But I have the pressure for now.

[laughter] But I have but I have the internal pressure of saying I need to make sure I have XYZ, you know, school fees, life, just a quality of life that I want them to have. It's coming from

inside of me. So

>> the factors change but really the internal pressure is the worst. And the

the worst thing about it for guys is that we don't really talk about those things. So even when we get together we

things. So even when we get together we may talk football arsenal, we may talk government, we may talk but we don't sit down and say guy it's it's rare I I would say that we will sit down and say guy I'm going

through it. I'm feeling anxiety or I'm

through it. I'm feeling anxiety or I'm feeling under pressure. You know, I can't really meet up unless like you have reached that point of no return where you actually have to reach out and even that for some guys is a struggle

because we've been taught that v vulnerability is weakness.

[clears throat] So if you are if you are showing that side of you some people may you may feel like people may look down on you. So men tend to hold that in as

on you. So men tend to hold that in as much as possible you know. So that

that's my my response. Well,

for me you are you are 100%.

>> I'm right or I'm wrong. You're correct

in that aspect of you know we have to also ask where does this where does that anxiety come from that we feel we have to be under this

pressures you know like so me I generally my friends [snorts] and I in fact we compete for who is the poorest in the [laughter] group >> you know that where they say you seen

those when guys meet [laughter] you You can see them building estate like this. Oh, he's building how like 30

this. Oh, he's building how like 30 buildings in one place like his own. Not

even with B.

>> You see for you >> from his pocket. You see how far >> anything for the boys. [laughter]

>> So you know among my own crew I don't think would I don't have that pressure you know I mean [snorts] >> society though cuz you have a you have your surname is heavy.

>> Do you feel any pressure? No, because

people feel it for me. [laughter]

>> Who are the people?

>> I'm telling you, everybody is feeling the pressure for me. Like even my music, people are on my music more than me. I

mean, I'm like, I don't even have to stress.

>> People stress on my behalf. Oh, his

father has this, his father. I'm like,

okay, thank you very much. I can

[clears throat] just live my life while you help me handle this, you know, part of the issue, you know. So family, my family, >> your last one.

>> Well, and also the last place you can go in our family to ask for help is our family.

>> Why is that?

>> You don't want that, >> right?

>> Cuz they will ask you what you've been doing with yourself.

>> But that's pressure >> that you need help.

>> But that's the pressure then.

>> I know. But

>> so you have it at the back of your mind >> raised that you can't, you know, we know for a fact, you know, family is not the option to. And then people wanting to

option to. And then people wanting to talk to other people with their problems. This is what therapy is for.

Where's the mic camera I'm supposed to look for?

>> Do you go to therapy?

>> Where is Okay, I think it's my mic. Do

you go to therapy? [laughter]

>> This is what therapy is for. Stop

burdening your [ __ ] with your problems. >> Why? I [laughter] want to

>> Why? I [laughter] want to >> leave your [ __ ] alone and get a therapist.

>> I really want to argue with that. But

your [ __ ] I'm coming. Let me finish.

Then you can say yours. Your [ __ ] are not your therapists.

>> What are they for?

>> We have our own issues, too. [laughter]

You can give us an outline.

>> This is the problem.

>> You can give us an outline, an executive summary.

>> Both men and women give us outline of your issue. If we know a solution, we

your issue. If we know a solution, we But don't put the burden on us, bro. Go

to a therapist >> because first you need to sort that [ __ ] out within yourself. And when you come to us in a balanced way, we can find a solution. The way things work right now

solution. The way things work right now is without >> therapy. because I

>> therapy. because I [laughter] just say just SAY YOUR OWN.

>> OKAY. I'M SAYING TO MY to my brother to my brother on the left therapist >> to my brother on the left this is why we have this particular we are having this particular conversation

>> because we are trying to tell men or sorry not you so a friend of mine is trying to tell men not to take their problem to to their guys therapist. So,

so your guys are not let but the thing is but the thing is your guys are your therapist and you you should able to listen to your guys when they have issues. I'll give an example,

right? A friend of mine called me on

right? A friend of mine called me on Friday and he said, "I'm having issues with my wife because I have a nanny that every time I gift my nanny something, my

wife steps in and be like, "Oh, you're doing too much." But to him, he's trying to make sure the person who is taking care of their child is well taken care of. The woman is saying, "Oh, you have

of. The woman is saying, "Oh, you have to go through me." And I told him, "Oh, some one of my friend went through." He

like "Oh if I if I've known I've spoken to you before now, I be I didn't know how to bring this up, but now they've spoken to me, I have a clearer understanding of what to do." He said he was thinking of

going behind his wife to do the gift. I

said, "No, you can't do that." But I have to make her understand that this gift is for the fact that this person is taking good care of your child. Now the

thing with people talking to other people is this is my guy apart from being here right I would tell came to my house we're like oh we have a new baby or my wife saying oh since we been back

thank you since we've been back >> this economy [laughter] >> since we've been back she's not in a she's not in the mood to have a new person come into the house but when she

went upstairs I told the CI like please now help me be cha let's get a nan right that was me telling the what my immediate issue is cuz I can't I don't know how to >> Can I just say something real quick?

>> The issue with your friend and his wife is trust. That's your one advice won't

is trust. That's your one advice won't solve anything.

>> No pop out. [laughter] I'm just saying.

pop out. [laughter] I'm just saying.

>> Okay. But I'm saying like it did. So

when when Chama came downstairs, I made her know that there is need if we need to get a nanny, we need to get in now.

And the next day she hired someone. So

what I'm saying is like your friends relationship counsel your parents your friends your parents may not be able to help every single of your issue and that's the reason why

Nigerian men right if somebody died [laughter] so much >> you know you know you know you [laughter] know overseas right someone can if you lose someone you can go to therapy or do something right in Nigeria

you lose someone then you have to man up they have to get money for the burial then after you paid for burial you have to get back working and you have to make back the money you spent. Sometimes

there's no room for you to really sit down and cry and be like I don't feel like it today just because you're a man and you expected to be strong. So to

answer because question I think I agree with banking but to a large extent the internal pressure isn't just internal it's mostly family oriented because if you fail family that is the biggest

failure to some people the outsiders don't really matter to me if I'm being honest right as long as your family can come home and eat I was telling someone my kids can come home every day and know that regardless of what happens outside they will sleep with AC

>> how the AC comes on they might not really care but if they take like the middle of the night they be like oh my god it's hot but for me that have suffered before without AC, without generator, I know the pressure that I have to put myself through to be able to

make sure they have a resemblance of a better life.

>> So yes, so sometimes it's the personal pressure is more or less related and interwined with family pressure cuz society is neither here or there. I

mean, if you buy a new car, the other person can buy another one tomorrow that's newer. So you can't might not be

that's newer. So you can't might not be able to meet up. And in terms of I want to do something funny in terms of friendship, when we all AB, we knew who had the most money. [laughter]

Yes. Now

>> diesel.

>> So we used to be in crew.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And [laughter] we knew who was >> it was gone man.

>> And so she is our older friend.

>> Yes.

>> And at the time >> if she says where you did ah we didn't come [laughter] >> because we know that first of all he had the power >> with the money but secondly

>> he was going to pay. So we were there >> and we can't we couldn't leave him.

[laughter] We can't we can't leave him a new place and go home. It's only going to have left that you can go.

[laughter] >> I don't believe in that. But isn't that something that men don't talk about? But

we'll get to that. I want I want to share a few things with you guys about the realness of this thing of what uh we're going through in Nigeria. Nigeria

leads Africa in sports betting.

[laughter] >> We are the most what we love about this.

>> This thing is real. You know this. No,

>> we do have the biggest population per population. Yes.

population. Yes.

>> Yeah. The ratio

>> it says Nigeria at 78% of young men are betting >> followed by South Africa with 73.

>> 78%.

>> Yes.

>> Wow.

>> Of young men followed by I mean young men young men pulled I guess >> South Africa 73 Ghana 73. So it's not like it's that the difference is that crazy but the point is there's a bin epidemic. Why is there a bin epidemic?

epidemic. Why is there a bin epidemic?

Plus people are trying to make more money.

>> Yeah. Secondly,

if you do a quick sort of poll of young Nigerians about what they think about a hush puppy, what do you think your response is?

>> Do they do you think he was seen as a villain or a hero?

>> Are you asking me directly?

>> Yes. Yes.

>> I think he's a he's a hero to do you think he's a hero to some?

>> Yeah. But what do you think the perception is? have

perception is? have >> what do you think is overwhelming >> that have I think he's a hero to the overwhelming majority of young people >> that have come from nothing

>> and do not see a way that their society is leading them to something >> and see someone that has made something for himself from that situation >> which goes back

>> I know charity also confuses the mind >> you understand when people are able to

commit evil but at the same time use the proceeds from that evil to grease the palms of >> but that's also sort of the Nigerian way >> it's not Nigerian way the Robin Hood you

know when you learned from that >> we learned already Robin Hood we all grew up knowing who Robin Hood was >> even though we don't know who or is everybody knows Robin Hood

>> you steal from the rich but you give to the poor you know so >> people like that are heroes [clears throat] >> are seen as heroes >> there not there's nothing heroic about the Robin Hood story.

>> No, people are not seen. That's why I said >> because it is capitalist uh orientation >> finish that will make you because they are robbing you. You two you are being

robbed daily by the big men in your society who are now telling you that oh they are robbing you to give you petrol.

>> They are robbing you to give you school.

They are robbing you to give you good roads. So you know they are robbing but

roads. So you know they are robbing but they are helping the poor. And that's

why you see people that will be saying certain politicians in Nigeria are good people because they come and they do give away empowerment all these story.

These are the Robin Hoods from the big level you know. So the Robin Hood psyche you know story you know is is embedded in our psyche.

>> I want to switch the conversation a bit.

>> Okay.

>> And to you Noble about >> because I mentioned relationships [clears throat] and spouses and all of that. How do you feel about your wife

that. How do you feel about your wife earning more than you? [clears throat]

Because for a lot of people is an ego is an it's ego related right and the perception is men are the breadwinners men are [clears throat] >> so it's always

>> supposed to provide how would you feel I don't know if she does but I'm just saying how would you feel if she did >> I want to say something funny I want to say I don't know how much of a sport [laughter] I know so a lot of people find it find it surprising when they

find out my wife has a like a proper job and she's on a major level she make decisions She's one of those people that say, "Oh, no. Let's circle back. Let's

do this and all the rest of them."

[snorts] >> Um, my wife's mom is a judge.

>> So, that dad was a minister in the old eastern region. She comes from a lineage

eastern region. She comes from a lineage of people who have been successful, who have done great things, who have been way successful in their life.

But as a man, as a Nigerian man, right, I've told my wife the reason why it was it would be difficult for me to move overseas is like if we do move overseas

now, she will have the quicker job to earn a lot more than me before I find my faith, right? I found my food and I

faith, right? I found my food and I don't know how I would take it for you sincere sincerely speaking >> coming from the point where it feels like you are carrying a bigger load at

home to going somewhere we have to sit down with someone to say oh that the rent is due how much are you bringing to the table blah blah blah blah blah so if I'm being honest I I don't want to lie and be like oh

it's going to be the most comfortable thing the Nigerian person or the Niger the Nigerian n will find difficult to live in a house where I feel like not

like I wouldn't accept it if that's the reality but the thing is the the Nigerian has taught me as a man to constantly work hard even if it's just 1% more than an earning

>> so if she's any more than you you would have an issue with >> I would have an issue just I might not have an issue I would speak about it but internally I may be disturbed because I will feelffect your yes it affect my ego I feel like I should be doing better

>> why you do like this no >> but it's the truth What's your opinion?

>> Please, so I can quit. [laughter]

>> Please, please.

>> So, in fact, there's a woman out there that watching this [laughter] a lot of money.

>> On behalf of your wife, I resent this.

I mean, I I >> And you see this [laughter] as a person you can take care of? Get in

my DX. Get in my DMs and give my wife 20 years and opportunity to take care of me.

She's my girl. I hope you know.

>> I'll call after this.

>> Please call her.

>> No, [laughter] she knows. She knows. She

knows her husband.

>> It's not a surprise.

>> If I find a woman that ears more than me. [snorts]

me. [snorts] >> Why do people like soft? [laughter]

>> Why do you like soccer? No, I don't understand. Why? Why? Why? Why? You see,

understand. Why? Why? Why? Why? You see,

I think it's people are capitalists.

>> Yes. Because as a capitalist, you know what you earn, what you own. In fact,

without ownership, you find no value in life.

>> If you don't own something and that's what is destroying Nigeria, you know, let's not let's not talk about that.

>> So, you're saying your ego is not affected in any way >> by money?

>> Yes.

>> No, no, no, no. My ego is not tied to money. Where my self value is is

money. Where my self value is is different from where money is. It's not

>> I don't want to tell you. So, you don't know my weakness. [laughter]

I'm mesmerizing and bamboozling everybody in Nigeria because they try the money weakness. They see that there's nothing there.

>> It's not working.

>> I can't give them the code >> because as African men, we must find a code outside of >> this western code that has tied most of us down, >> you know.

>> So, I did a random poll on Twitter.

>> I don't mind.

>> I don't I don't know that I believe the answers. I had asked

answers. I had asked >> what your thoughts about women earning more than you.

Um 6% said it's not right. 6% say it's not right.

>> 15% say they're indifferent, >> but they find it weird. 56% say they totally okay with it.

>> Really?

>> This is the new I think >> this is the new >> I feel like I had a lot of Jenz's >> not about Jensen's.

>> Am I a Jenz?

>> And I'm not saying I'm not saying there are not people who don't care cuz I don't care.

>> But at the same time I I as much as I don't care I also have never lived it.

So, so let's say doi toast you now.

>> No, I have I have a >> I know. I'm just saying hypothetical.

>> Listen to me what I was saying.

>> I said I've never lived it. So

>> that's what I'm saying. So now

>> So in my head I feel like >> I feel like I'm okay with it, but I don't know how I would feel in the moment.

>> Can I ask a question?

>> I always think of how when I offend my wife.

>> Can I ask a question? Can I ask a question?

>> So we're we're having this conversation about men and money, right? And since

we're all married men here, I think this is a question I'd be interested to know joint accounts. What do you feel about

joint accounts. What do you feel about saying, in other words, are you the kind of man that says, "Hey, my wife knows everything that I make. I know

everything that she makes. We put it all in one pot and we operate from there."

You say, "You have yours."

>> There's no Nigerian man that tells his wife everything he makes.

>> I actually I tell her everything that I do.

>> I tell my wife everything I make. She

knows how much I refract. [laughter]

>> She knows she knows everything.

She doesn't go and misbehave. This is

how much. This is what exactly what we are worth. Don't go outside and start

are worth. Don't go outside and start thinking you are married to Jay-Z and go and misbehave.

>> You know, that was one of the hardest things for me to open up about.

>> No, no, no. She knows everything. I

mean, >> you know, it was hard in the beginning.

It took me years.

>> We make enough for her to be impressed, but not so much for her to go crazy.

[laughter] >> No, but what you're saying to get there?

No, but it took me years to get there.

>> But what you're saying is is was the same. I thought I was the anomaly.

same. I thought I was the anomaly.

>> No, >> but this is this is because we don't talk.

>> Yes.

>> So you think you are the exception.

>> A lot of us are the rule.

>> Yeah.

>> Because we actually don't have this conversation.

>> I'm happy with that 56% poll.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean like >> it's encouraging. That's if they're not believe it though.

>> That's if they're not lying.

>> I didn't believe.

>> I don't think you can see the person.

>> No, no, no. On Instagram. They know I can see them.

So, so for for me and my wife, I think we had >> you are anonymous on Instagram, you're not.

>> We we had the same trajectory that you had where in the beginning it was everyone's kind of hedging their positions.

>> But then eventually we just said, "Listen, we're in this thing and we're all in." Right.

all in." Right.

>> So there's no my money and your money is our money. So we know what is coming in

our money. So we know what is coming in and we have no we have access to it. No,

it's my money and your money in the African way. My money is my money.

African way. My money is my money.

>> Your money is your money. But everybody

open. Let's see. Let's see the own money. Fine.

money. Fine.

>> No, we we I believe it's is it's is our money.

>> The only person that is our money is the children. The kids it is their money.

children. The kids it is their money.

>> I mean ultimately it's all >> you have access to all the money. But

between the two of us, you know, >> you keep yours and she keeps what what is inside your own bag. This is my own.

Do you need anything from here? Okay.

You don't need >> No, but what do you think? So,

[clears throat] so for me I like you know how so I have a working wife who makes money and I make money and um my upbringing is a bit

different where I first of all will think about the ability to provide right and I always come from that thought to say I want to be able to surprise even

when it seems like we don't have so my wife is privy to some that we have you get what I'm trying to say but also have some just in case we need to do something urgently that she might have

thought we couldn't do. I don't have a problem showing everything but also of the school of thought that even like talk about joint account where I tell that the problem I have with joint account is like you're not going to ask me to bring 400 where you're bringing

100 to have a proper joint account let's do 4 400 or do one m so you can't be have an account I'm doing 1 m you're doing uh is that 100 >> no like I'm saying if you if you're going to come with equity I'm trying to

say to you like you know your hands have to be like very clean come meet me but the thing is I don't have a problem people showing what everything that they've got can I ask a question

Aren't there seasons where that fluctuates? Right. So where if you say,

fluctuates? Right. So where if you say, "Okay, we're bringing for 400." There's

a season where maybe you do a few contracts or something and you had a lot >> have a lot more. That's what I'm trying to say.

>> And then there are times when you have a lot less.

>> Yeah. So So when you have a lot more is the more that goes into the one that if we don't have enough for the joint account to carry, the more can come to

cover that. Because the thing is living

cover that. Because the thing is living in this society where they said not it's not like a right thing when they say that they feel like everybody is one sickness away from bankruptcy.

>> Do you I'm trying to say where it feels like you know sometimes you might have this money or this amount of money and something comes and could be a robber.

It means that when you see something that bigger than the your [clears throat] farmland you say your yam bang just so you can buy it. You

know that kind of thing. So some you lost me on. So let me right in land when you're a farmer >> your ground is like >> is your is there is the highest >> is your sign of wealth >> okay

>> traditionally how many yams you have in your bank >> but then some things will come as problem that you have to sell >> to be able to >> okay

>> get it for that so sometimes that money is your >> yan that you put aside so but the thing is I'm I'm open as long as everybody's coming I'm not trying to say my wife is not going to come with clean house. But

what I'm saying is sometimes just because of how Nigerian is.

>> So you do feel a need to kind of withhold some or or or keep some to yourself or not really >> keep some for the family but just available for when there's an emergency just so

>> so what's wrong with having an emergency fund together?

>> I mean I haven't tried it. I'm trying to say I don't I don't like you know I don't know who have tried it how it has worked for them. You get I just feel like they I feel like they the joint account already is an emergency as it

is. The other one is the emergency that

is. The other one is the emergency that tops the emergency. Does that make sense to you? So there's emergency that tops

to you? So there's emergency that tops an emergency. There's emergency that

an emergency. There's emergency that comes with Let me give an example.

There's emergency that come with >> your brother's wife.

>> God forbid. I no brother's wife. Sorry.

Your brother's wife have given birth. Do

you I'm trying to say to you and I'm not trying to say >> No, we don't say God forbid.

>> No. You're welcome.

>> I'm not saying yes. So I'm not saying I'm not saying that you can't take from the account to give to your brother. I'm

not saying like I want my wife regardless of to have money that she can use to solve her own family problems without making it look like she has to come to her joint account to take money.

>> That's interesting. I'm trying I don't want I don't want everything to feel cuz I mean we are home as mother like it can't be every day a mother wants to go to France uh to Germany you take money from the account account to buy her

ticket next December oh your sister just gave birth you want to take money from joint account I want a situation whereby even as much as we have a joint account less >> things you want to do on your >> that as long as you're not like you're

not you're not building another family outside of your home but just have things to take care of the things that don't necessarally have to be the problem of your immediate family. Do you

get Do you get what I'm trying? So that

way so that way you know that don't trust a woman too much that you show all your money.

>> No. No. No. No. That's what I'm saying.

Is that what you're saying? No. That's

what I'm saying.

>> Like 1 million words.

>> What I'm saying? What I'm saying?

>> Trust her but [laughter] banks. Let me

banks. Let me let me give you an example. Like let me give my in my in my family right my wife. There are three girls.

wife. There are three girls.

>> Yeah.

>> My wife her sister who lives in America who lives in Canada. Yeah.

>> And I want family.

>> Do you understand what I'm saying? So

even when we start to give to every other sibling. She she has less people

other sibling. She she has less people to give.

>> I have more people to give. Right. I

don't want a joint account to look like my family withdraw. Why she's taking less and we're homes whether we like it or not.

>> Don't you have a personal account?

>> I do.

>> Outside of your Do you have a joint account?

>> No. [laughter] My money is my money.

>> So why you not talking about?

>> No. No. No. No. No.

>> Your money is your money.

position that he doesn't let his wife know everything that he has.

>> What's your own position? She know she cannot touch it.

>> No, she can touch it.

>> Your account doesn't have access to it.

>> She cannot ask. [laughter]

>> That's not her touching it. That's her

asking.

>> Yes, but a joint account means she has my bank pass.

>> Why don't you have a code?

>> What is the joint account necessary for?

>> Because she has access to spending on things that she can't afford with her own money.

>> She can spend it. She has my access to always come to you.

>> She has direct access. She has the code.

Have you forgotten her bank these days online?

>> So she has your >> She has my password.

>> So she so she she basically can operate it like a joint account.

>> Operate it.

>> Oh, she can operate your account independently of >> if she wants but you also do operate her own bank account. No account

account. No account >> because there's no money inside.

[laughter] >> Oh my gosh.

>> I've told people this state before. If

my wife was rich, I would not be [laughter] working. How much does she

[laughter] working. How much does she have?

Let's let's >> She makes money. She does all the arcade. She must

arcade. She must do with that kind of money.

>> If I enter my wife's account once, >> it's over.

>> She she will complain. It will be a family issue. [laughter] She will

family issue. [laughter] She will complain. I mean, her account is not for

complain. I mean, her account is not for every account is for actually those rainy days that you're talking about >> when I'm not around or you know I'm in between so I'm planning a tour. I don't

want to spend extra money. like please

please please okay she can go and do stuff for herself you know like she's fine you know I know like she's fine she can do stuff for herself but not for me to go and now start jumping into our account and stuff like that and also

like I have to put >> I have to put on record that I have a very honest wife comes back like the moment we go on holiday she'll come back and say oh we have like 3k left >> oh very lucky >> that we didn't spend so

>> my my wife even though she has it left she will spend it [laughter] she must spend it for spending We have we have budgeted the money for spending.

>> Who was it that said money that you do not spend? What did he say?

not spend? What did he say?

>> Money that you don't spend is not your own.

>> It's not your own. Something like that.

>> That was your recent.

>> Recently?

>> Whoa.

Who?

>> I mean >> I mean >> I mean >> I mean >> it is what it is.

>> Even if I had oil license [laughter] by your by the thousands >> money that you just spend is not >> it's not your own. The only money I spend is my own.

>> Yes. Get him on the show because >> that's your only money you have spent.

That's your only money.

>> So but if it's not my money but I spent it is still my own.

>> Yes. It's your own especially in Niger I spent is mine.

>> In Nigerian lingua I'm not saying that's what he said though.

>> I don't say in Nigerian lingua money that you have spent is yours.

>> Who can hold you?

>> We can get him on the show to talk about.

>> We should actually. I want to talk about your your industry and formerly Banky W.

>> Yes, formerly >> is W.

>> A few you guys have been very guilty of you know the kind of lyrics you spin if you don't get money your face >> you know.

>> No no no no I will not accept.

>> You don't accept the lyric part of that life.

>> But you are putting me up.

>> You're an artist.

>> Yes I am. In Nigeria there are artist like saying I'm a man even in military is navy air force.

>> If I say military is your encompasses all of them >> but even in that >> I'm not going to answer looking for genres and >> you better start. You are one of the you better

>> say there there are artists who have >> not only do I not participate in such lyric writing >> but Nigerian music has for the longest time whether we like it or not without naming names or if you want to name names

>> proper >> somebody wrote those somebody sang those words you just said so you names >> no I I named that one >> but there's been a culture of

>> how much do you have what I can't I've lost count of how lyrics I've heard about Lamborghini Ferrari Lamborghini Ferrari Rolex >> it's about the material things >> and that's why I was asking about

ranking of the pressure let's hear [laughter] let's hear him >> I was asking about the ranking of the pressure right because a lot of pressure also comes from >> I guess that that's

>> the culture with music comes packaged as societal pressure as well >> and today a lot of young people who are going through this money pressure is

because of the kind of music videos they see, the kind of lyrics they hear, what they see on social media.

I don't Okay, maybe you don't sing. Your

lyrics might be different, [snorts] but I don't know what kind of conversations we have with your colleagues and they your colleagues whether you like it or not. And what

this >> some of them are even my friends >> what this has sort of done to the psyche of young people.

Okay. You want to take?

>> No. Go first and then I'll go.

>> You know that.

>> I think you should go first. [laughter]

>> Every artist can only make music.

>> The distance that music travels is based on >> the audience.

>> Not just the audience, but those with the access to the audience.

>> Okay. Yes. In society, the music that is disseminated has nothing to do with the artist.

It has everything to do with those that are the masters of that society.

Every society determines how and what they want to disseminate to their people.

It is not a coincidence that Fella is the greatest musician in Nigeria as we all see. How many times did they play

all see. How many times did they play for that music on the radio?

>> So there's there are factors that determine what kind of music, what kind of lyrics, the escapism that is sold to Nigerian people

had to do with the artist.

Let's let's all be honest here. the

artist has because the same people that disseminate this hide money matter whatever money girls ask cars Lamborghini you can't tell that that is 100% of the

music that is made in Nigeria I know many artists that don't make this kind of music and they don't get the support the push the visibility

>> because there are same people that determine right what society is fed So to blame this on our industry as a

thing that oh no no no no that's not the thing >> you will not have that.

>> Yeah because [clears throat] you you act as if Nigerian people are fed a variety of what they have and then they choose this. This is not the case.

this. This is not the case.

>> Let me flip a question to you. Do you

think do you think religion and pastors are more complicit?

I think that there's definitely a level of being complicit in it for religion and for pastors. I think that um when you start getting to a stage where

you watch, this is me personally, where you watch certain videos and you see these ostentatious displays of wealth from people who are on the pull pit. Um

I think we've lost our way.

Um, I also think that in the same vein, you know, Shane was talking about how this is not the entirety of the music that is made. I

think this is not the entirety of the pastorate or the spiritual leadership.

>> Exactly. I think it's like let's be let's be measured in the way that we look at these things because >> not every >> the same way not every musician makes

the same kind of song, not every pastor behaves a certain type of way, but it does exist.

>> Um I also think, you know, because I I guess I've I've played in all of these worlds, right? So I think even from a

worlds, right? So I think even from a music perspective um the word escapism you know people are really suffering and sometimes they do

need to celebrate their way out of that mental state that sunken place and so >> they will sing songs about you know being successful or whatever the case

may be fantasy >> because it just gives them a temporary uh escape from the suffering that they're going through. In the same vein, there are songs that are motivational and saying, you know, this year, you

know, Victor Thompson has a song this year, you know, it's going to be okay for me. My money testimony, my life is

for me. My money testimony, my life is going to, you know, and so sometimes those songs are escapes. Sometimes those

songs are prayers. Sometimes they are pleas to say, I really need to to get out of this. And I think the same thing goes with the church. I think there are pastors who have used the church as a

way to, you know, generate wealth for themselves and they are not shy and they're not shy about showing it.

>> But there are some pastors who are genuinely there to serve the needs of the people and they're there to help.

And I think it's unfair. I get

uncomfortable when we make generalistic statements just the same way he tried to make a demarcation to say this is not the entirety of music that's being made.

I think it's only fair to say that in the same vein, not everybody who is a spiritual leader or occupies that position of authority should be put under the same because it's not fair.

>> And we must understand that society is led by it examples.

So every society has its example example for success example for fame.

We have every society creates their examples and we must understand that [clears throat] those people that support the status quo

>> right have certain messages that they need people to embrace and they are the ones that embrace this mainstream message that they project upon the people you understand so it's a let me

put it it's a vicious circle that feeds itself you know thereby excluding the voices that do not agree with it.

So we live in a society where the politicians through the bankers and corporations who bring in the artists and influencers through endorsements and

all of that to share a certain message that feeds that loop right and then majority of the platforms we have that

reach our people are already bought by the people in this loop be the newspapers, the radios, the TVs and then the endorsements that bring in the influencers and the artists and the

actors and the journalists because we all know that media cannot exist without advertisement. So through advert they

advertisement. So through advert they bringing the media into this loop you know so they they have the message that this loop continually feeds you understand but it doesn't mean that

there's nothing outside of that even though it is more difficult to find more difficult more uh excluded from the mainstream message.

So in a way we must ask ourselves the question how do we

uh free ourselves from this loop.

>> So I want to this religious conversation cuz religion is very heavy with Nigerians. Nigerians go to church, go to

Nigerians. Nigerians go to church, go to the mosque, we find >> I don't know how many you people are traditional. Now we play the pass

traditional. Now we play the pass traditional >> worship said Africa is 50% Christian 50% Muslim 100% traditional >> still that's that's another conversation

>> facts >> but I wanted to talk about this idea and it's the one of the most talked about things in Christianity about the man is

meant to provide >> and it's fed a lot to congregations you know and whether we like it or not Men go home with that in mind knowing that this is my duty.

>> That's a Bible verse >> which is why when I even asked the question about were your wife earning more than you how you comfortable with it and I was surprised by the polling as well. I don't know if people maybe maybe

well. I don't know if people maybe maybe it's what people feel really feel >> but the fact is that it's what we are fed by religion to a large extent that

you know it's your duty to provide whether you like it or not. And I see all this conversation on Twitter a lot now these days. Half the time you log into Twitter now there's a debate about when you go on date who is paying who

should pay should it be 50/50 is the man's duty blah blah blah. And I don't know what that does but it's a thing >> and I wanted to come to you cuz you >> you're a man of faith.

>> Yes.

>> I don't know if you're a pastor but you're a man of faith. [laughter]

>> I I am I am a pastor. Why do you do you feel that the church religion is complicit in fueling this men have to make money?

>> Okay. So, one of the verses that people will typically point to when when this topic comes [laughter] a man that cannot provide is worse than an infidel.

>> Yes. Yes. Actually, you know the verse.

Yes. So, 1 Timothy 5:8 says, "But if any provide not for his own, especially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel."

Jesus Christ.

>> Now, those are harsh words, but I think the challenge when you're looking at scripture is you have to not just take one verse. You have to take the entire

one verse. You have to take the entire context of what the scripture is saying.

You have to take the subtext of what was going on at the time. So, the problem is when people take one verse because you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

>> Even in the Bible, the devil quotes the Bible. So is that, you know, taking one

Bible. So is that, you know, taking one verse and saying, well, the Bible says you're an infidel if you don't have money is is a a a very terrible way of looking at it.

This verse, if you take it out of context, it says if you don't have money, if a man doesn't have money to provide for his household, he's worse than an infidel. But the context is that Paul was writing to Timothy who was

leading a church and he was addressing specific situations that were coming up.

And so the question came up of don't use your Christianity as a reason to ignore your community of your or your family.

So they were actually this chapter is talking about widows and how you know if you have a widow in your family care for her. Don't use the church as an excuse

her. Don't use the church as an excuse to say well sorry I'm busy I'm busy or I'm I'm working for the church I'm working for God. So the the person that's in my family who needs my help,

I'll blank them because so because true spirituality, true Christianity is not just about your relationship with God.

It's also about your relationship with people.

>> Why then is that the more popular interpretation?

>> Because people will always take >> it's cognitive dissonance. It's it's

it's taking the interpretation that suits your narrative as opposed to saying let's look at the whole context of what this is saying and draw what the real meaning is. You know the real

meaning is what what the scripture is really trying to say.

>> So this infidel verse that people have used over and over again is actually >> Paul saying which any any decent >> any decent spiritual leader will tell you don't say you are coming to serve

God or you're coming to >> do this do that meanwhile you have people in your in your family who need help and you're saying I beg I beg I don't have >> time for that. That's actually what that verse was saying. He's saying if that is

your disposition where you are choosing neglect of your own family, your own household because you are saying you are doing Christianity or anything then you are worse than an infidel and that I agree with.

>> It's not saying if you are if you don't have the ability to earn or if you have come upon hard times or whatever the case.

>> So I guess my point is still valid.

>> Okay.

>> And I'm I'm Catholic. I go to church. So

let nobody think I'm not I'm not religious here.

>> Why do you have to say that? my point

because people might because in the when they are violent I know you are protecting yourself I know people understand because back to what he's saying people don't see context anymore people take you literally >> it's unfortunate >> so you need to also let people

understand that >> my words are not coming from a place of wherever you think me me I have a big problem with this >> but my point is you just quoted >> my point is how religion has become sort

of a weapon >> and from what you're saying a lot of people deliberately misinterpreting this

>> verse without context and it's fueling it. So my point is still valid. Religion

it. So my point is still valid. Religion

is fueling it.

>> Well well first of all religion has fueled a lot of atrocities in the history of the world.

>> Most wars I I could be wrong but but correct me if I'm wrong. Most wars have or a lot of wars I should say have another tone of of some kind of religious.

>> So I'm not here to absolve religion.

What I am saying is that when we're talking about scripture, what it should be is what I've explained. Now, what it actually is >> is the reality of life is that people

will take something either out of intentional manipulation or out of just pure ignorance.

>> So, people take things because they just don't know and they don't take the time to study and to unpack things for themselves. And just you hear something

themselves. And just you hear something quoted once like I'm sure I'm not sure but Noble, let me ask you. You know the verse. Have you ever read the chapter?

verse. Have you ever read the chapter?

No. Have you ever read the book?

>> No.

>> But you know the verse.

>> So, exactly. But you've never read the chapter. You've never read the book. So

chapter. You've never read the book. So

when we when we restrict ourselves to just regurgitating what you've already heard and you don't take the time to research it and understand the context and really draw out the meaning for

yourself, then it's possible that you will get into trouble because you're going with somebody's interpretation of what was written as opposed to saying, "Let me understand what actually was

going on myself." because you can take you can make scripture you can make the Bible say anything that you want it to say if you take any verse out of that's just the point of >> I also don't think that this this verse

is also the only problem so have you also noticed that let's even talk about marriage as regards Christianity or whatnot >> why it feels like a lot of men do not

get married until they've made it >> yeah because that's a good point that's almost an epidemic also on the backbone of this not being able to provide And sometimes

men that do get married at that time when they think they cannot provide end up not marrying the type of wife that they would have loved to marry.

>> So sometimes you find men when they make money >> they decide to go for the type of woman that they think that they deserve.

>> That's that's yeah interesting. So

that's why you find a lot of people will say "Oh how is your wife? Uh we just the manage."

manage." Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Because >> what if they just manage?

>> No. No. No. I'm sorry. Like at that point in time, he feels like he's at a point where he's not necessarily like doing the kind of thing and and it's a thing. So young men,

thing. So young men, >> well, that's a problem with a man's mindset because he's been saying because he he does not want to be an infidel. So

he waits until >> why doesn't he come to be anible [laughter] Africans forget that when they say infidel in the Bible it is us they speak of

>> who are us >> Africans >> I am I am telling you the Muslim is not an infidel >> in the real eyes of Christianity because

he's a man of the book he's a desire of >> where does the Bible say black >> infidel girl is the black man.

>> How does he say that?

>> Where does he say that?

>> Does he have to say that? Okay. Okay.

Wait.

>> When does it say that?

>> Let's calm down.

>> I'm calm. I'm actually very >> Who is an infidel?

>> The person cannot pro.

>> You think it is you that now has Christianity or that know Abrahamic books. The infidels were those of the

books. The infidels were those of the world without the word. You need to take back at that time.

An infidel is a person who disbelieves >> exactly >> or lacks faith >> exactly >> in a particular religion.

>> Exactly. So when a Christian and a Muslim says infidel >> when they were writing those you know the people that are ruling the world were you and you are an infidel to them because you didn't believe in those

things >> often used to refer to non-believers or those with different faith >> exactly like Africans and we had different were you Christian

when you were BORN YOU SEE AFRICANS then so when when I say when you are born when you come into when we as Africans came into consciousness we were not Christians or Muslim Muslims. You became a Christian or Muslim by force.

[laughter] >> This is our men. I told you I said TAKE BACK YOUR SHOW. Take money.

>> The good thing is that it is Christianity and Islam that gave men all the money.

>> Hold on.

>> In Africa.

Can I say something?

Let me make this thing make sense now because I don't want us to deviate. I've

gone off now and I want to bring you back to the whole money conversation cuz he made an allegation there that Christianity and Islam or >> Yeah. He took the money from African

>> Yeah. He took the money from African women >> took made it about money.

>> They took the money and African women >> with his what he has on his hands. A lot

of the gods were female, but a lot of the gods also talk more about knowledge and I say name a female and I'm trying to think about e female angels culture

which female which I'm kind of aware of whether it's a showing you female god >> make show me female priest I don't even want priest

microphone [laughter] >> she will listen to me >> money as in god >> listen to me the point I'm trying to make and I want to understand because I'm trying to understand what role religion has played and how we can fix

that. Right?

that. Right?

>> I don't know a lot of the Euroba gods but a lot of what you've explained here is around sort of divinity, strength, knowledge and I'm trying to think back maybe I need to go back. I'm not think

back a lot of the Hebrew gods that I know whether is Adio is a lot about strength um knowledge

there's a god god of his son um any we have all of these gods [snorts] where but even with Christianity I don't know that there's any p passage that I

remember clearly that talks about wealth but there's an allegation around what Christianity is doing to sort of propagate this gospel of prosperity.

>> Okay?

>> Right?

So maybe he might have a point in saying that if religion was kept traditional, maybe we we're just living a simple life.

>> My in my family for example, >> so especially the Protestant side of things. When they say the first to drive

things. When they say the first to drive a car is a woman, the first woman to drive a car, you know, we have >> the church has been accused a lot and

we've adopted this American style protestant, you know, flamboyant, you wear flashy suit, you buy private jets and all these things are sort of ingrained in you also want to be the highest donor at the church harvest because you know that gets

>> you know again so do you think those are fair allegations? I think that what it

fair allegations? I think that what it has done to I think that they are fair allegations in certain regards. Yeah,

[snorts] >> I have a problem when we make generalistic statements and that I think is >> speaking generally which is wrong but I get you.

>> But but I think that that there in line problem because you don't say >> because there were doctors who were bad or are guilty of abuse then I'm never going to go to a doctor. All hospitals

are evil or whatever the case may be.

Right? You have bad teachers and good teachers there. In the same secondary

teachers there. In the same secondary school, I have teachers that I logged who were instrumental in making me the person I became. I had teachers who were abusive.

>> Everybody has that story. In the same families, there's always, you know, one or two people have brain touch.

>> So, I I don't think that it's fair when we make generalistic statements and say because I've seen evidence of this here, then everybody is guilty of this thing.

>> The prosperity gospel is false. is

corrupted. The poverty gospel is also false and corrupted. That the idea that oh, you are just meant to be poor. Wait

until you die and just submit to everything and just wait. Yes, that's

also false. What the gospel really says is that God will provide all of your needs. God will bless you enough for you

needs. God will bless you enough for you to be a blessing. That's the promise.

The promise is not we're all meant to be dangote and it's also not that we're all supposed to sleep under the bridge. It's

a gospel of provision, not prosperity and not poverty. Now, there's a segment of the church that has taken that and abused it. And I know and those

abused it. And I know and those allegations are true. And I don't like them either.

>> But I also don't like when we take that >> those evidence, the evidence that we do have of of corruption and allegation just like what you said about the music business. Oh, you and your people, all

business. Oh, you and your people, all of you are it's it's an unfair statement. And I think that as

statement. And I think that as intellectual intelligent eloquent people, we have to be reasonable enough to say that within this >> field,

>> there are some really good things and there are some bad things. Regardless of

your belief system, I think that's only fair. And that's that's my push back.

fair. And that's that's my push back.

>> Do you think it's do you think our parents had it easier making money?

Because I see that narrative a lot.

These people bought houses for 5,000 NRA.

>> I don't >> these days there's a belief that the bar is different, right? The economy is the global economy is shattered.

>> I wouldn't >> no pressure is different.

>> People that enjoyed public free education are making it expensive and unreachable and unattainable for other people.

>> So that answers that question.

>> I will answer the question. So he said do you think that in our parents time it was easier to think our parents had it easier >> and our parents had free education >> free housing

>> how many have to pay house money >> and also also another thing you have to add to that was regardless of how we look at it right social media plays a huge role >> okay

>> on the type of pressure that we feel right so our parents may have been compared at village meetings >> or church >> or the guy down the street

>> or the guy down the street.

>> Now you can come who don't even know you. Yeah,

you. Yeah, >> the comparison comes from somebody saying, "Oh, you can't talk. You've been

in music industry for 10 years. You

don't have a hit, right? Regardless of

what circumstances are."

>> So the diff one of some of difference is is we are being judged on a larger scale world over there's no gate.

We come from America to look at Nigerian Instagram. There's no gate to cross.

Instagram. There's no gate to cross.

There's no place to pick to know who's successful, who's not successful. And

even now that's why a lot of people even some people have even think their success is tied to the number of likes they get on post. So some people have taken the likes out of their post.

>> So fame is a drug.

>> That I'm trying to say. So that way people don't see >> attention is a drug.

>> Don't see whether they're getting more likes or more views or what not whatnot.

So the thing is the there's a social media pressure. there's a cert pressure

media pressure. there's a cert pressure that comes with being able to sort of like >> I think that's even that's I think I think that's even a good Yeah, I do. I

think that's we'll come to that. But I

think that's a good point because it's not even just the social media pressure of money. It's also the social media

of money. It's also the social media pressure of beauty.

>> Yes.

>> It's also the social media pressure of romance. Right. So before your circle of

romance. Right. So before your circle of where you could go and look for the woman you want to talk to was, you know, if it's not your school or your office or your community, you were limited. Now

you can look halfway across the world and see a woman there who is a pie in the sky dream that you have no opportunity to get up and go and even talk to.

>> You have unrealistic airbrushed filtered standards of beauty. So women I mean I I I saw a story online once about a girl >> who put herself under so much pressure

that she killed herself because of this unrealistic expectation of what beauty is supposed to be. and you're looking at somebody's airbrushed filtered

>> and then when you now finally get >> she's now sending you constant rules of proposal ideas.

>> Yeah.

>> You could have just proposed in your parlor.

>> So even even the outlook of things where like you know how people like back back in the day where if your living room looks should look like your living room and you're okay with that. But now as a

man, you can send a picture of how your living room is that you're comfortable in and somebody comes to the comment section to tell you how Bankyw living room looks. And you guys have been

room looks. And you guys have been >> I I guess the consensus is that our parents had it easier.

>> Yes.

>> Do we have it easier than Gen Z's >> cuz we all millennials.

>> We have it easier than Gen Z's.

>> Yeah.

>> I think Gen Z's have it really, you know, I mean the world, we've destroyed the world for them. They have to come into climate change.

We have to use free because if you don't we read you cannot see yourself as part of the solution.

banks got what we a bit of difference here and there were with the genes right so >> they have to do with climate change but then actually talking

to our age they won't be able to think about money >> no but but you have to also understand the disadvantage is a lot of them got advantage of working from home so they can do multiple jobs in order to earn

right so that's an advantage no disadvantage Let me let me let [laughter] me explain to you what I mean by that. Right. I don't know if I would

by that. Right. I don't know if I would say a lot of them.

>> No, I said no. I want to say see I wouldn't say in an option but in our own an option for some but in our own time >> not in certain industries in our own time if you have a job >> you're going to that job >> Monday through Friday

>> but even that's even that's becoming more and more companies are are >> talking about what was available at our own time at the time we get into the industry >> not not we cannot do I mean some of our

parents are working from home even though they're not >> jenz's but what I'm trying to say are the thing that is available the tools that they have yeah

>> right So now Ibuka asked about Ebo female gods. I have never thought about

female gods. I have never thought about that >> but it took me >> googling >> chapter to know about six

female EO gods. It took two man.

>> No like I'm I'm a Christian. I know

I'm I'm a Christian. So I respect mill I didn't know. No I didn't know the man and I >> I'm just saying they just say

>> but you know what I'm trying to say. So

the thing like see they have been they have more tools to be successful. They

have more tools.

>> So are you saying then that Jenz has it easier because they have more tools?

>> I cannot say they're more empowered than us.

>> But it's also a different world.

>> How though?

>> No. like the tools to be able to navigate the world. We didn't have as much.

>> You think so?

>> Yeah, we didn't have as much.

>> But isn't the pressure heightened?

>> No. See,

>> you're just talking right now about how social media, which is this great tool you think that they have, is more of a hindrance.

>> No, I said is is No, I said it's a measured thing. But what I'm saying like

measured thing. But what I'm saying like that's it.

>> There's no time you said that. Your

point here was that social media put you under more pressure.

>> Right. That's that is what we [laughter] said.

Let me finish.

>> Okay, go ahead.

>> How is it a tool for them if he's putting everybody under pressure?

>> It's a tool for them because if with a social media it can be here in your house in Michael and do a campaign for Shaw of that can achieve that.

>> I'm not I'm not talking about majority.

I'm just saying >> yes. So but the majority

>> yes. So but the majority >> but even social media is not even a pressure on every single people who don't care about it. So it's either near or there for every single what I'm saying is I'm not trying to say they have it easy but they have tools

>> they have the tools to be able to navigate certain things in terms of knowledge and being able to do different things.

>> I want I want us to sort of wrap this up with two questions. First question I want to ask is cuz there's an saying um

basically means wealth or money makes you more confident. M

>> do you think when you are broke or when you are not as boant?

>> Do you like the word buoyant?

>> It's a very [laughter] you know >> it's a wonderful >> do you feel less of do you feel any less of a man?

>> I do.

>> Yes.

>> Absolutely.

>> Yeah.

>> No, I don't.

>> Absolutely.

>> Why not?

>> I don't feel less of a man. I feel

really bad about about where I'm at. You

know, >> I feel really bad about >> I feel like he affects he hurts my ego.

>> It does hurt my ego. Let's discuss the truth. Who is this title? Who is a man?

truth. Who is this title? Who is a man?

What do you know as man? This man thing this maybe tell us what do you think?

What's your definition?

>> Oh, no. Let me rephrase it. What's the

definition of masculinity?

>> Yeah, exactly. Because I think we we are so embedded in the western.

>> So, it's the it's the words that we >> Yeah. is the in the western idea. What

>> Yeah. is the in the western idea. What

what is yours? You know, how you dress, what you make.

uh masculinity is protecting your society.

>> How do you protect your society >> in any way your society demands of you?

>> How >> I don't know but the how do you stand up for what is your idea of protection?

>> You are the protector of >> what is your idea of protection in depends on what your society needs. For

me right now our society needs to be free. Men in Nigeria are those people

free. Men in Nigeria are those people working for the liberation of the Nigerian people from our oppression.

>> So for you and our protection do you feel so I want to ask you working for the liberation of our people from oppression right now are those protecting the society.

>> I want to ask you a question directly >> because many people think about dressing up I'm coming is man wait let's not go to what many people think.

>> No wait the question direct question because I'm asking about >> what money does to your ego for you. You

say money does nothing to your ego, but for you masculinity is about protection and what you're doing to liberate >> defending yourself society.

>> Do you believe that you might be talking from a place of privilege whether you like it or not with the >> Well, let me finish >> with the kind of surname you have.

>> Yeah.

>> You don't need money to be able to speak up on certain things. Whereas the guy you feel needs to speak up can't because he's not a cooty.

>> No, I don't feel that guy needs to speak up.

>> Okay. I

>> So how does that guy now fight for liberation? What is that person's idea

liberation? What is that person's idea of protection?

>> Exactly. His idea of liberation is organizing in his own community.

>> In what way?

>> In any way. He also lives in a community where he can't speak up because he doesn't have money.

>> Uh-uh.

>> That >> nobody's going to listen to him.

>> That means nobody's going to listen to him.

>> That means he's trying to organize among those that are his opposites. You

organize with like minds. Like minds

will also only live in this just talking about hierarchy of friendships. Listen

to me. I'm organizing in Nigeria. I am

organizing in this country. I have been to bank house organized with you. Have I

not been to your house? You are a come.

>> I know this because I know bank doesn't have to do with my surname and also I don't mind nothing comes from nothing.

Fella is only fella because he's familiar son.

>> Yes.

>> Finish.

>> Okay. But still

>> so I'm saying they added more to nothing comes from nothing. Yes. So I don't mind you organize in the capacity that you can organize.

>> I will not say that I know bank if this guy one of your guys can organize with his own crew here. He's talking to them now. Are they not talking to him?

now. Are they not talking to him?

>> Exactly. But they don't see that as necessary to organize among your peers to fight for what you want because we have [snorts] made it so in a society

that those of us that do not have feel completely powerless.

I feel >> let's let's use elections I'm let's use elections for an example like we want people to believe that only this established politicians can do something >> we don't want them to feel that in their

own communities they have power to liberate themselves and do something in the society and their community so this is the difference it's not like oh because uh I'm this guy I want to

rephrase the initial question I asked cuz I want to I don't know if you've ever been in that situation but if you ever found yourself in a point where your wife or your daughter needed something. Need, not

want. Need

>> and you can't afford it.

>> What does that do to you?

>> I don't know because I've never been in that situation.

>> So that's why I'm talking about hypothetically speaking as a man >> if you are in that situation where you are. So

are. So >> does it make you feel less?

>> Kea has um to kill a monkey which everybody I think everybody has watched.

I don't know if you've seen it.

>> I've seen it.

>> Okay. So that opening episode where I think it's FA >> you know has come upon hard times where he's unable to provide >> that is really what he's saying >> does not mean

>> that's but that's what he's saying if you're in that situation you still feel like you you're still >> it does nothing to you >> so we live in a country where certain people who have everything wants people

that have nothing to think that they are nothing about people I'm coming so that's why you think that Oh, how would I feel if I'm in a situation, but I'm in a position where I would never

>> You never be in that position. So, you

can't >> in that position. So, my duty is not to imagine myself in that situation, but imagine how to remove my brother from that situation.

>> Okay.

>> I think the mistake that we make, we that we are no longer in that situation.

We keep imagining that we're going to fall back to that situation.

>> The situation sometimes.

>> Yeah. But the thing is like it can never come out of Exactly. But I know But I know how I felt. Do you think I've never been in a situation of lack of want but I've been in a situation I'm in the

position in life already where my lack and my want is not at that level of effic yes yes >> of course >> exactly what is wrong in our society

>> I don't know if I'm making myself clear actually is that men like us >> who have been able to acquire achieve

some things in this society >> we want to keep drawing ourselves us back to that situation where >> I don't think we

play the role. We play

we play the role. We go to church. We

pray. Oh God, let me We We play the role. We play the role.

We We want to put ourselves Oh, look at that man in the street one day. No, that

is not us anymore.

>> That's not what I'm saying. That's not

what he's saying. That's not what I'm saying. There's a there's a saying

saying. There's a there's a saying globally that a lot of people the average human being >> is one terminal illness away from >> going bankrupt bankruptcy. It's a fact

>> in this reality.

>> But this is in countries without wait this is in countries without healthcare.

>> No even country no even >> you cannot you they're not >> but we're also talking about reality here sickness that want to catch you in France that you will go broke.

>> Can you say okay so we're talking about Nigeria talking about reality here. Yes.

So there's a reason why it is that because certain things have not been put in place by those who should put that.

But we're talking about the reality today.

>> The reality of that is that we allow people to be in positions where they can create such realities for us.

>> No, but >> I cannot impose that on myself.

>> Sorry, you were going to say I know for a fact I will never be in a position.

>> So I agree with Let me tell I sorry I agree with sorry. I want to move from position to go ahead you know sometimes like I don't think is

being able to sort of go I don't think there's a possibility of just being able to go above to be at level where something cannot happen to you and you feel as a man let me explain to you where like so a couple of years ago my

dad had cancer >> and my dad was ill for the longest time we can you know so when my dad had cancer we did eight months in South

Africa from South Africa. We moved to Houston from did a couple of destin in Houston before we came back and my dad passed.

>> They were doing my dad burial. Then my

wife was pregnant. Then one evening they said because of the stress that the baby was coming down that she needs to be admitted. I went to the hospital before

admitted. I went to the hospital before they could admit her we had to pay 400k.

But I didn't have it.

It didn't matter that we have treated my dad had done the burial and I couldn't pay 400k for the hospital to be able to

save my wife and my our child and it was a hospital that we go to >> but just because they have to admit her.

So what I'm saying is it doesn't matter I I was able to pay because I could call somebody who could pay but even that call was not the easiest call to make for for

me because I felt that I shouldn't be in that position >> brother this is the issue of capitalism >> I'm telling you man

we as African men we need to see listen is this little things that we if we build a societ society where our healthcare works and we insist that the

society we want men like you and I can create the society you will not be telling all this story but the society is not >> I I don't who will create it if it's not us

>> I think that there's a there's a there are a few different angles going on here and they're all positive I agree with you and you know that I've invested a

significant amount of personal fortune >> in trying to build that society but I do think that for purposes of this conversation we have tried >> you didn't try enough

>> but for but for purpos sorry >> bank and I we have war in this level I say you didn't try enough conversation left >> but for for purposes of this conversation [laughter]

I think let's let's bring it back to where you were I where you saying >> you know as as men you know this

pressure to protect to provide uh to be that person for not just yourself but your family is a very real pressure that men whether we like it or

not regardless of what level of society that they are at especially for those who don't have as much that is a very difficult place for a man to be in >> so then

what I even want I I don't I don't know what the answer is >> and I get in all of this I actually get Shim's point about what should be.

>> Mhm.

>> Um and how the system is set up and all of that. And it just got me thinking a

of that. And it just got me thinking a lot about what's it called now? Um

black tax.

>> Explain that for people who are >> So black tax is it's common amongst Africans or people of African descent. You make money and

it's basically your responsibility now to take care of everybody >> around you. Friends, family,

>> relatives. You are paying six people's school fees. You are paying a lot of

school fees. You are paying a lot of uncles rent.

>> I don't see many go.

>> It's a thing. The moment you start shining, black tax sets in and you are >> Yeah, >> I know it's kind of men and women, but I feel like maybe men >> more

>> it's expected of you as a guy.

>> And it might also tie back to what you were saying because the system doesn't work.

Black tax becomes what you fall back to.

And so my point is while I get what you're saying about what should be, what is is a fact that we can run away from >> and these are the things that have made men

>> get to where they are. So the pressure is there. I know we talked about ranking

is there. I know we talked about ranking >> initially. I was torn between the

>> initially. I was torn between the friends and society. But I think for the average Nigerian, society is the pressure is the biggest pressure whether we like it or not.

A lot of what we do is because we want to be seen a certain way. We want to be perceived a certain way. You want to walk into that event and the MC

announces your name. You want to go to a wedding and the band sings your title so that you can come and spray. You want to get in traffic and your car is noticed.

A huge >> You know, there are some gates in Lagos that if you don't have the when you drive a certain car, they let you in.

>> Yeah.

It's a fact and society here, the societal pressure unspoken is extremely heavy >> and it's a perception that I don't think is going to be easy to change but I

think things like this is what needs to start happening. A lot of men don't talk

start happening. A lot of men don't talk about these things. When we talk about it, we're talking about it to even put more pressure on the guy.

>> Mhm. Yeah,

>> if you see the tear away, >> you are happy for 5 years.

>> You are happy for you now like I have to now get a new car for a lot of people.

It's not everybody but the good of men that's that's where they receive that sort of news. So you go out congrat your Lambo mad >> for where now

[laughter] I'm talking my steps you know this is a stop it this is a this is a this is a very valid point so I don't

know if you guys remember you you guys probably remember so yeah so there was some years ago I went to the grocery store >> and I went grocery shopping and I was >> leaving and apparently some girls who

saw me, you know, doing my own grocery shopping, coming into the car, you know, driving myself home, started filming my car and they put it on social media that ah see

supposed you know successful artist look at the car is six seven years old. It

was a it was a range at the time >> and it was like it was like yeah it was like a seveny old I think or 8 year old >> but it felt it wasn't brand new enough no I'm serious and a conversation not

only not I don't have any but not only did they >> I have another [laughter] point before they >> the point the point being though that

they followed you there was no check in their mind that >> okay if you're going to even abuse me you not only abused me amongst yourself.

You recorded it. You followed me driving. You now uploaded it on the

driving. You now uploaded it on the internet to say, "Oh, haha. Look at

somebody supposed to be a successful artist." Doesn't matter if that artist

artist." Doesn't matter if that artist was building household or saving for kids. Doesn't matter.

kids. Doesn't matter.

>> You've already shipped your cars before even before that didn't matter. It was

just this they had this not only did they have this expectation, they were so justified that they could take it that far. And I think you know as we talked

far. And I think you know as we talked about men right the danger of society now just not just society but society being this close to you is that you will

now get your validation from the comment section >> and that's the danger. You can't you cannot as a man tie your selfworth to what people say or what people think

because if you get your validation from there that's the same place that you get your condemnation from as well. ask is

which society is this where African men are only judged as successful by the amount of European things they can acquire.

This is what we must ask. This is why I'm telling you this is these are the forget money men these are the questions we must keep asking ourselves and looking like so why are we only

validated by the amount of European or Asian things we can afford who are the people that supposed to make African things for us to buy

>> on as in is my grandfather it's it's not just my grandfather was not wait a rich man's daughter >> hold on it's not it's not just about it's not just about He catch

>> in the name of Jesus.

>> I think that it's not just about saying we are able to give what Christ did in my family.

>> It's wait now it's not just about it's not just about saying are we able to afford European or Asian things. Don't

limit the conversation to that.

>> The conversation is about looking at material things wherever the things are.

We don't make the material things >> but whatever it is the money the naira that's in the account >> think that if these things >> so don't so don't make it I'm >> tell I hear what you're saying but what I'm saying is that I'm not the one

making the point >> that is what >> the point is that we cannot tie it to the accumulation of things >> any man's identity and selfworth

>> regardless of whether those are from Germany or Asia the point is don't tie it to your >> where are the things that I I'm guaranteed >> back in the day when it wasn't those

things they probably had some level of pressure then >> what it was mirror it used to be mirrors >> whatever but even at that time if we were having the conversation >> used to be gunpowder it used to be silk textile

>> it used to be cattle >> the same people >> it used to be cattle >> yam tubers >> it used to be y tubers y tubers to your girlfriend now kind of

saying no you grow y tuber in your land >> I'm saying like the the material thing changes Yamtuber >> because then I can go to my village, grow some tubers and bring it to Lagos.

>> I'm not saying that you can use tubers.

Now I'm saying that the the conversation would have still been valid even when the material thing was not something from >> material things be from Africa >> then

we all have access to use it. Sure. The

problem is that we have certain people who have betrayed their own. They used

to do it before for mirror, gunpowder, silk, >> gin, and all of that.

>> I I want us to wrap this up cuz I just want us to get >> So this where the essence of this money you're talking about.

>> Yeah.

>> Because what was those things that Africans we had everything but there are some Africans we selling people that had all these things that we don't have and it's still those things that we don't have that is

used today.

>> So I will agree I will agree with you.

Let me just I will agree with you in the sense that I think that we need to to look inwards as Africans and as Nigerians, right? We you wake up every

Nigerians, right? We you wake up every morning where is the face wash that you use? Where is the soap that you use made

use? Where is the soap that you use made from? Where are the clothes that you

from? Where are the clothes that you wear or the watch or the jewelry? Where

is all of that from? So, if we're a society that is always looking outwards for things to consume, I agree with you in that point. So, I think we do need to look inwards. That's why as much as

look inwards. That's why as much as possible, let's try to encourage ourselves to support things that are inward, right? So, let's wear Nigerian

inward, right? So, let's wear Nigerian clothes, buy support Nigerian brands or African brands. With that being said, I

African brands. With that being said, I still think that the point that you are originally I believe originally asking >> about men tying their validation to what

they can acquire or spend is a valid point that we shouldn't lose >> in the conversation of saying, "Hey, we need to look inwards and support who we are and invest in ourselves." that is

both two things can be true at the same time >> and I think that's the point that you were getting to and that's what I'm what I'm trying to land at is saying >> yes let's let's grow from the inward you

know in terms of Nigeria Africa yes I agree completely but let's also remember that in our own mindset as men your validation cannot come from material

things or external sources or the comment section on your social media or the number of likes you get or the number of followers you have or what you able to buy whether it was Yam Tubers in

19 Buru or it is a a a Benz in in 2025.

>> Okay, let's wrap this up. Let's wrap

this up. I want us to just get sort of a summary from each person here of you know what's I don't know you when you had money and

men you probably came here with a perception and I just want to know if there's anything you you came here knowing and if there's anything else you're leaving here sort of learned from

uh because I didn't think we're going to solve the equation today >> it can be solved >> but like I said this entire thing for me for people to talk more about these things cuz like I said I don't feel like

men talk deeply enough >> about a lot of these things >> I don't mind going first >> yeah don't men talk you know I always say like African men

>> are open >> reading about African men like I grew up in the house with an African man and I knew that one of his main characteristic was that he was

>> he spoke his mind.

What it meant to be a man was to speak your mind. Whatever it is that was

your mind. Whatever it is that was inside of you came out.

>> As Africans, that is what it meant to be honorable.

>> Then we also have characteristic traits of what it meant to be good men, to be kind generous

understanding, you know, merciful, you know, um caring, sharing. Yes, we

had He's lost now for sure.

>> And in these times that is the characteristics that made men >> your word when you said something to a man

and that word stood >> come rain come shine.

>> This was what it meant for us as Africans to have been men.

today you know even when I talk about the y I'm talking about I don't even mind if we're going to be materialistic but we have to be materialistic internally the material things we must

value are those things we have power over that over time the characters of humans have been diminished I can summarize it to saying

that love will go chop it means that my love for you is meaningless >> my love for view is meaningless. My love

for my country is meaningless. Now love

chop. Politicians in Nigeria love chop. It's true. Even though they

love chop. It's true. Even though they in position to represent the lives of 10 million people

now love, we go job integrity is removed.

>> Who is a man without his word?

>> You understand? So for me, >> let's get back to that point. So for me that is you know when we talk about man and money what is this money in the

African psyche must be represented what it is we mean wealth African man don't know money we know wealth generational wealth you understand so what is the

wealth of a man without integrity where is the wealth of a man without his honor you know so it's not about these things that we can accumulate

be it it is worse when it is foreign it is okay if it is local from us >> but that which you accumulate without those things that make us men

the African perspective for me is just is not a void [clears throat] >> integrity of this conversation >> so um so uh first of all I want to say

thank you for having me um what I what I'm taking away is there's a need for men to commune immune.

>> There's a there's a need for us to go back to keeping in touch with one another.

>> There's a need for conversation and family and every single thing that deals with helping each other to go beyond social media to go back to what it used

to be. Um, men don't talk because

to be. Um, men don't talk because sometimes when you see someone's post, it feels like you've seen them, but you haven't really seen them. So, we need to

go back to the things that have helped us in the past. We need to go back. I

mean, she disagreed that men shouldn't be each other's therapist, but I disagree. I feel like people should be

disagree. I feel like people should be able to share their problems as long as >> this morning. [laughter]

People should be able to take their problems to their friends as long as their friends are not taking their private conversation as gossip. So,

people should sort of come together, share things that are going through. You

tell me I'm telling you.

>> Thank God I'll tell the book. So um but the thing is men should talk >> and men should not live under the pressure of a man has to be a man. It's

okay for a man to cry. It's okay for you to show emotions. It's okay for you to vulnerable. It's okay for you to be

vulnerable. It's okay for you to be human first before be before seeing yourself as a man. I kind of feel like those are important values. And most

importantly, when men get together, we tell each other and put us on the right track to do what has been accepted at the truth, the right things to do. So

that way our families and our friends can sort of grow to have a better Nigeria than the one we met. Well said.

>> Um, thank you both. You both spoke very well. So I won't I won't try and repeat

well. So I won't I won't try and repeat anything that you've said because I think they were very very well put. For

me, I would say that the common thread that I found in everything somehow that we've said today is that being a man or being a great man

is about more than what you can get.

It's about what you can give.

>> But let's not limit that mindset to just being able to make money, which yes, let's hustle, let's go out, let's work hard, let's do the best that we can do to provide for our families and those

around us. The reality is that being a

around us. The reality is that being a man in Nigeria or being even a woman in Nigeria, you're a government onto yourself. You are you are paying school

yourself. You are you are paying school fees, light, water, you drive a ball hole in your ground. You are also doing the same for multiple people that are connected to you. I have a phone that is

for the streets that is just one request after and I do the best that I can do when I can do it. But the reality is that we have a lot of pressure as men.

So yes, it's about what you can give, not what you can get. But in that, understand that your worth is more than that. It's it's more than your ability

that. It's it's more than your ability to earn money and shell out money. It's

about, if you're a family man, it's about being present. It's about love.

It's about loyalty. It's about

instilling dignity and a value system in your children. It's about being there.

your children. It's about being there.

You know, the gift of fatherhood is that just by being present, you're a superhero. And that I think is something

superhero. And that I think is something that we don't maybe don't put enough weight on. And so we put so much

weight on. And so we put so much pressure on ourselves to say I need to be able to afford this. My children need to sleep in AC. I need a Gen. I need

diesel. Fine. Go for all of those things. But also realize that just by

things. But also realize that just by walking in the room and being there for your wife and your kids and the people around you. That's also what being a man

around you. That's also what being a man is. And that's what I

is. And that's what I >> Thank you.

>> I think mine is very simple. I not even to be deep at all. I honestly came into this conversation believing that Nigerian men had an ego with regards to how

the bread winner conversation goes. It's

surprising to me that four out of four men sat on a table and said they don't care if their wife earns more than them.

>> Please I won't I won't stop impressed by I think that's one thing that stood out for me.

>> For the longest time I've always I don't I've told my wife you like walking. No,

I've I've told my wife >> today if you watch this episode, >> go out and bring that bag so I can quit.

>> We're on the same page. So, I said two things. I said when I can't provide,

things. I said when I can't provide, my ego is hurt. But then that means there's also no provision on the other side. It doesn't mean that if I can't

side. It doesn't mean that if I can't provide and there's provision on the other, >> you're not you're inside. Shake my hand.

So that's why I said I'm actually surprised that four out of four people here said they're actually okay with >> I've always been of the impression that Nigerian men are tied to that provision.

So it's nice to know this is why conversations matter and I think it's is the one fact that has stood out for me today. Before we go, I actually want to

today. Before we go, I actually want to do action.

>> Isaproy, get your head.

>> Isa, I want to ask you, >> I want to ask you something about you, >> my brother.

>> Can I see your nails? Cuz I've been noticing it and it's it's not a very masculine.

>> It's glazed up. Glazed

>> thing. When did you start painting your nails?

>> For years.

>> Tell about it and your masculinity.

>> Yeah.

>> And what is your answer?

>> I don't have any answer. Who is the person that wants to question me? Who

are you that want to answer you? There's

no answer for you can ask me as my friend and I'll explain.

>> You are my guy.

>> Why do you do it?

>> You know, but I don't owe anybody. [ __ ] him.

>> Yeah.

>> Masculine side, feminine side.

>> Because as a human being, you know, you balance both, >> you know, >> and I have a daughter, >> so I fool around with me, but Allah understand that

>> I'm like her the way she's like me too.

>> You know, I think many African men look at dressing as a >> which he's a fashion boy. So, but I don't see dressing as a cuz African men

of the things men women wear today were first worn by African men.

>> Europeans now steal our fashion go sell for their women.

>> She wants EUROPEANS TODAY. I'M

[laughter] SERIOUS. Is it makeup from the eyelashes lipstick? African men start g-string.

lipstick? African men start g-string.

Okay, that's even more favors.

>> But you know Africans had a traditional nail polish.

G string in the east. They say even G on for a while and G string G string it said the G string the highest >> G string African

push man that's true it is see it is Europeans and Christianity that say one way you dress you be man one thing you wear you

be woman no this is not the African sense no I just noticed it throughout notic generally. I've always just wondered if

generally. I've always just wondered if it's a question.

>> I've always like had my masculine side and feminine side like open.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. Because I'm tired of all these nonsense we do in our society, right?

>> So yeah, first because when people hear a guy say masculine and feminine side, you're already thinking a lot of things.

>> Yeah. You have to marry the two because men are women too. That's why you have nipples.

>> She always wants to start episode two.

[laughter] >> The next episode of mentality have nipples. If men are not women, if we're

nipples. If men are not women, if we're not women, why do we have nipples? Let's

go. Thank you very much.

>> Why do we have nipples?

>> My daughter has finished.

Let's change [laughter] on the next episode of Metality.

>> Do you breastfeed?

>> Do you breastfeed? I don't know. Do you

breastfeed? [laughter]

But I know every man has a nipple here.

[laughter] >> Are you breastfeeding?

>> I am not. I am absolutely not.

>> Scientifically, everybody starts at XX.

>> You are like 3 months in the womb before your wife.

>> You are a girl for >> you've been tuned into Mentality with me, I [music] co-host Banky W. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please make sure to rate,

review, and follow Mentality with Ibuka wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Thanks for listening and catch you next [music] time.