Master the Creative Process | Twyla Tharp

You have a reputation for having risen early and gotten to the gym by 5:00 a.m.

for two hours, day in after day out.

Tell us about that ritual. And uh do you still enjoy it?

>> It's not a ritual and I never enjoyed it. It's a reality. And uh you do it

it. It's a reality. And uh you do it because you need an instrument that you can challenge. Just set the mechanism

can challenge. Just set the mechanism for the day you're going to have to do it. It's kind of boring and it's kind of

it. It's kind of boring and it's kind of losome. Could you give us a bit of

losome. Could you give us a bit of insight into your inner dialogue around days when you don't want to go? Is there

a selft talk or have you learned to push aside the the voice that says maybe not today?

>> It's simple. It if you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.

>> Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science [music] and science-based tools for everyday life.

>> [music] >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stamford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Twilight Tharp. Twila Tharp is a worldrenowned dancer and choreographer. Her onstage and film

choreographer. Her onstage and film works easily place her not just in the top 1% of all choreographers of all time, but also among the top tier of all creative artists, past and present. I

knew I wanted to host Twilight on this podcast after listening to her book, The Creative Habit, where she spells out how to build a schedule, habits, and routines that make your best creative expressions come to life. What I love

about it is it's direct and it's actionoriented. There's nothing mystical

actionoriented. There's nothing mystical about it. She explains in her book how

about it. She explains in her book how even for people that have just one hour a day to write or sing or draw or paint or whatever to get the most from that time in terms of creative output. Then,

as I learned more about her, I was also super impressed that even in her 60s, by the way, she's 84 now, she could deadlift more than 200 pounds, which is more than twice her body weight, bench

press her body weight for three clean repetitions, and was taking up boxing to keep her movement and reflexes sharp. As

you'll see today, she is a phenom, and it comes by way of hard work. She's

still in the gym every single morning at 5:00 a.m. for two full hours. Today we

5:00 a.m. for two full hours. Today we

discuss how to build self-discipline in and around your creative mind. And we

discuss movement as a language. There's

this new idea emerging in neuroscience that bodily movement, then music, and then speech is how humans came to communicate with each other. We

discussed that and how movement can help us process and explain our emotions and our ideas. We also discussed Twilight's

our ideas. We also discussed Twilight's life growing up on a farm and how that shaped her mindset about work and community. And we also talk about what

community. And we also talk about what it means to have and express your unique creativity and how to evolve your sense of taste. Oh yeah, and we also discuss

of taste. Oh yeah, and we also discuss telepathy. You'll notice the rapport

telepathy. You'll notice the rapport between Twilight and I is very different than is typical for other Hubberman Lab podcasts I've done. She is a real firecracker and we had a ton of fun

exploring and challenging ideas, mostly her challenging me. It was a true honor and pleasure to learn from such a virtuoso of the arts and frankly of life. And as you'll soon learn, we can

life. And as you'll soon learn, we can all learn a lot from Twilight. Before we

begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is

however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include

sponsors. And now for my discussion with

sponsors. And now for my discussion with Twilight Tharp. Twilight Tharp, welcome.

Twilight Tharp. Twilight Tharp, welcome.

>> Thank you.

>> Huge fan. Huge, huge fan. and

[clears throat] love love love your book.

>> Thank you.

>> The creative habit. It's just an incredible book and it's taught me so much and I want to talk about that today. But I want to talk about a bunch

today. But I want to talk about a bunch of things.

Let's start with what a spine is. I think this is such an important component of the book and this

concept of a spine. And the way I think about this is that many many people feel they might have something inside them that they want to put into the

world. They want to access their

world. They want to access their creativity or they're creative and there's so much information out there about how to go about that.

But this notion of a spine is really critical because it keeps us on track.

Otherwise, it can be a wandering in the desert. Suddenly, you're swimming in the

desert. Suddenly, you're swimming in the ocean. And suddenly the phone you get a

ocean. And suddenly the phone you get a text and please explain what a spine is and why this is such a vital concept for anyone that wants to create anything.

>> Spine means focus. Spine means

concentration. If you think about it geometrically, spine is the center both laterally and vertically.

So if we're talking physically, you have a right and a left side. You have a top and you have a bottom. And these

elements are connected through the center, right? So, uh, they have to be

center, right? So, uh, they have to be coordinated. You simply cannot function.

coordinated. You simply cannot function.

If your right side is going one way and then your left side's going this other way, you're going nowhere. So, you have to move off your center in terms of how

you organize information. There's also a center to it. It's like okay over here you have this and this and you can transfer what you understand from this

arena to inform this side but it has to pass through a common point and that common point is the center and until you

feel that or one anyone working either physically or let's just use the word very broadly and generically artistically until you know where you

are grounded where you feel the most confident that you are what you said you're at sea you could be going this way that way unless you know how to navigate from the

stars which few people do anymore you're screwed >> so when I think about a spine in a like a scientific paper I was taught there

can only really be one major conclusion maybe two but one major conclusion of any paper even though the data set probably points to 50 different things that are potentially interesting in

terms of a podcast or a movie or a book.

It's sometimes not obvious to the reader or to the listener or to the observer what the spine is, but my understanding is that the creator has to understand

what the spine is going into it. So

could you give a couple of examples from your own work and maybe if they come to mind a couple of examples from visual arts or movies or something where

it's clear to the creator what the spine is but it might not be entirely clear to the person watching or consuming the content.

>> I am a great fan of Agatha Christie and Jonathan Car. Okay. And the reason why is because

Car. Okay. And the reason why is because from the get-go, you know, there is one conclusion, but that their job is to keep you away

from that conclusion for as long as possible.

>> Who did the crime?

>> Who did the crime? Who's the killer?

Who? What a what a what is the crime for starters? and they'll delay as long as

starters? and they'll delay as long as they can in their singular, you know, style definite u modes. I mean, Agatha Christie has her

u modes. I mean, Agatha Christie has her format is practically that of a sonnet.

I'm I'm sure you could actually count words and I've never seen a study that show a long Okay, she's going to do red herring number one X words in and this is where she's going to throw in the

extra crime to push the tension up to get it to go to here. But we all know we're playing the same game. Uh I think that anyone who is successful in

communicating to other people gains their trust, gains their confidence that you're not going to screw them. How much

do you think it's important to get into the audience's mind about what they want or is the spine coming from the solely from the creator? Is it is it about the creator's relationship to the work or

are you thinking about what the audience wants and what they need?

>> The question about audience and intention is a is sort of sensitive one because it's okay. Are you manipulating the audience? And are you there just to

the audience? And are you there just to take advantage of them? Or at the other extreme of that spectrum, are you doing it because you're in an ivory tower and you're off here doing your own

investigations? And maybe they connect,

investigations? And maybe they connect, maybe they don't. Who cares? Right?

Those are the two extremes. Total

manipulation of audience, total disregard of audience. And depending on who I'm working for or with, I do both.

To me, it seems like it's one of the toughest things as a creator to both want to honor your audience's wishes, but you also have to have something that

you want to communicate. And

we never know how things are going to land. But for somebody who wants to

land. But for somebody who wants to create something, maybe we could orient them toward their own spine like or to the o the spine of the work. What where

does that start? Well, I think that uh the word intention which is you know so vague these days uh but why are you

doing this? What is your purpose in

doing this? What is your purpose in doing it? What's your interest? Why do

doing it? What's your interest? Why do

you want to do this? What's what's in it for you? Are you to learn? Are you uh is

for you? Are you to learn? Are you uh is this a contract signed? Do you have an obligation to be successful to a producer who's investing a lot of money?

And that's a given going in. that's

going to determine a range of possibilities for you, right? And unfortunately, the bottom line controls a lot of this

issue. At least for me, it's given if

issue. At least for me, it's given if I've signed a contract to deliver a specific result. That's what I'm doing.

specific result. That's what I'm doing.

It doesn't matter what I want. It's do I get that accomplished or not. It's in a way a kind of sacred bond. Okay. you

honor your contracts. On the other hand, if I am not in a singular position of earning any money, I can do anything I

want or anything not that I want but anything that I think is important.

Okay. So, how do you determine the parameters of important because that helps with intention in the olden days which dates as in before 1979.

Anything before 79 is the olden days. In

the olden days, that would include the 60s. We did things because we wanted to

60s. We did things because we wanted to change the direction the earth rotated.

End of story. Good luck.

>> Tell me more about that.

>> It simply meant that whoever the practitioner was was completely exposed to everything. Say you're a painter.

to everything. Say you're a painter.

you're completely exposed to everything everybody is doing and you see another way of going about it and you do that

everybody is plugged in to that same mechanism and if they swerve into your area you shift again you have to

continuously be altering perception as an artist that notion does not seem so relevant these days perhaps

>> why do you think that is because uh you could live cheaper in the 60s.

You could live very cheap. Now you

cannot live very cheaply as a as an artistic force. You're paying bills,

artistic force. You're paying bills, lots of bills.

>> I've long thought that the best work that people do is at the beginning when they don't have any feedback yet and they're just being themselves. It's hard

to stay connected to that early energy of uh just being one oneself without the notion of contracts and feedback and per you know perception of

feedback. Do you think it's important?

feedback. Do you think it's important?

>> I've never been of the persuasion that my understanding was the greatest when I knew nothing as when I knew more.

>> I've always been of the persuasion that the more you know, the bigger your challenge.

If one looks at lives uh of artists uh for example Beethoven take Beethoven early work take Beethoven late work very

different different challenges um there is argument to be made depending on your particular set uh of the coherency of the

classicism of the earlier quartets as opposed to the late quartets and the total disillusion that he was able to accomplish at the end of his career

totally taking the sound world apart uh that he could only actually do because he was deaf. He had developed uh

during the course unfortunately of a very long time, decades, the awareness that he was losing his hearing and by the end he genuinely basically was

completely deaf which forced him into his own world and there he looked at himself across the ages.

So in a piece I think of the Diabelli uh which is the last thing he wrote for keyboard after the sonatas and he actually had started the diabelli 15

maybe even I'm forgetting my details here but 15 years earlier than when he came back to complete it and he got

bored with it initially because to a younger composer it wasn't challenging ing enough when he came back to it later. He had a

humility about him that said that theme which I used to poo poo because it's like you're kidding

up yada yada up count in half drop it back down ya da de he's going what and later he comes back and he says

right not stupid simple I could never have written anything that simple or that useful full and he finished it and it's arguably the greatest set of

keyboard variations in the entire repertoire.

Which do you want? The earlier

Beethoven, the Beethoven who has passed way through many different works, a mass, an opera, many quartets, and

returns to it with this new information to look at it again.

>> Fascinating. There's something about the more you know the bigger your challenge but >> totally >> if I may from what you just said maybe also the bigger the opportunity.

>> Totally.

>> But the more kind of distracting it is and the harder it is to focus. Part of

that's physical uh but part of it is also that there are many more options available

uh with accomplishment if you will but you have to be selective about what you have available to you to work with. In

the earlier phase, you'll take what you can get. And now, if you take what you

can get. And now, if you take what you can get, you will be very wildly distracted by everything.

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Recently, I listened to a conversation between my good friend Rick Rubin. We

were talking about earlier, who's a big fan of yours. You inspired his book and he wanted me to tell you that.

>> Thank you. and he was speaking with um Gwennneth Paltro who's a you know of course an actress and um has done incredible things in health and wellness

business etc. And she said something very interesting. She said, "People

very interesting. She said, "People generally like to keep you where they found you." And it's an interesting

found you." And it's an interesting statement uh that I think taps into something that again that as a creator or as a consumer of creative content

feels very true that we encounter somebody like somebody goes to one of your dances or we see a great movie with Gary Oldman in it or something. You see

a Bos for the first time and it either impacts you or it doesn't. But if it does, there's this tendency to want to keep that person and the work they do in that place. It's like we we think we own

that place. It's like we we think we own the creator in some way and the work and in this very naive and selfish way.

Do you think that that creates a real problem for anyone that's trying to put things into the world? Because as you stated, with time the creator gains

knowledge, you evolve your craft, but your fan base, the people that love you, they love you for something that you're not really any longer. You're evolving

>> cuz Somewhere over the rainbow syndrome, right? Uh Garland always was asked for

right? Uh Garland always was asked for one song or Elvis John anyone is always asked for their hit because everyone wants to touch upon that which seems to

somehow be their greatest accomplishment. Um it's aggravating. I

accomplishment. Um it's aggravating. I

mean obviously it's called cubby hauling. Um and you for the person doing

hauling. Um and you for the person doing the work there are artists who work serially right who work in series and who make

incremental changes and they kind of have in a way a stab at the best of all possible worlds. But there are others

possible worlds. But there are others who feel that okay you got that I got to go over here. Uh and that's because in a

way they're right because if you want to constantly be gain it's a game. You want

to be gaining the attention you do it by change. You don't do it by reinforcing

change. You don't do it by reinforcing that just creates a comfort zone and it can build a reputation. It can build a career that it it it gives you more and

more of what you expect. Uh, but for the person who's making the work, that can kind of be deadly.

>> Did you know Jean Michelle Bosia? You

>> No. Okay.

>> Uh, a different generation. I I knew the painters, the downtown painters in the 60s.

>> Could you give me some examples of >> Oh, you want to know the famous names?

>> No, I don't want to know the names. I I

just have a question about >> Tony Smith, Frank Stella, Motherwell.

>> Okay. I The reason I ask is >> Reinhardt. The reason I I ask is that um

>> Reinhardt. The reason I I ask is that um earlier you were saying that there's a time or there was a time when a given field everyone knew each other and what they were doing and I I like Boss. I'm

not like obsessed with them or anything that there's a wonderful scene in the movie Bosia with him and Benicio del Toro or the actor playing him and Benio Del Toro about this notion of fame.

We'll put a link to it in the caption so people can see it. And it's just a wonderful example of how people will love you, then they'll hate you for how you change, then they'll love you for how you were, and then it it's a

hilarious and and um again, for a consumer of content, it's it's perhaps even more interesting than somebody who's a creative. But uh the point being

that nowadays, I feel like there's so much stuff out there, art and music and dance and Instagram puts it all on, you know, smorgesborg

display for us.

And it's kind of harder to know where one sits in a community of creators. And

so to what extent do you think that being surrounded by other creators like visual artists or other dancers

then versus now was was or is useful?

>> Yeah, the early era also age is a factor here. I was very young. I was just out

here. I was very young. I was just out of college. Um and uh I felt very much

of college. Um and uh I felt very much the student.

Uh it's a different deal now and it's a different kind of responsibility and the work's going to be different. In

the early era went to see absolutely everything. Now I go to see absolutely

everything. Now I go to see absolutely nothing. Uh and it is

nothing. Uh and it is partially a matter of time but more importantly it's an awareness

that you want to feel isolated in a way because you are and that's the truth. So you need to

operate from a truthful place. Um, and

when you talk about this plethora of information that is out there, I do try to inform myself to some degree about different areas of

culture. Uh, but I do it through a media

culture. Uh, but I do it through a media perspective because that's how the consumer is receiving it. Consumer is

not at the individual exhibition or at the individual performance. They're

getting it through media. So in looking at it through media, I already have a double perspective on it. I have the artists perspective, but I have the journalists, if for lack of a better

word, we'll call podcasting journalism.

Will we be forgiven?

>> Sure. Podcasting is a weird thing. We

could talk about later what it is and what it isn't.

>> Okay. We'll wait till this is off to discuss that, right?

>> Sure.

>> But the uh the challenge for me becomes, okay, in all of this swirl of stuff, what do you believe?

>> Forget who. You can't believe anyone.

But what what can you believe? What is

really grounded uh in a way that's productive? Um and uh in thinking I you

productive? Um and uh in thinking I you know I've just come off if you'll forgive me for diverging here for a moment two really hard years of working.

uh a 60th anniversary tour uh that uh was a very big culmination of a long long working process um which

put a lot on the line and which was unfortunately very successful because success is much harder to follow than failure. So here you said, "Okay, babe,

failure. So here you said, "Okay, babe, you've done it all. Now what?" And so where do you go?

And you don't go around asking other people for the answer to your question.

One has to find a way of rerouting without abandoning who you are and what you believe in order to just make change. Really, how

does that work? So it's an extremely um attenuated place to be.

Not many people make it this far. Not

many people are looking at their 61st year of work, right? So that's like, okay, so show us.

right? So that's like, okay, so show us.

Well, maybe I don't want to.

Maybe I will. Who knows?

>> You said that um coming off of a success is much more challenging than come off coming off of a failure. I think that uh will surprise a number of people uh

because people myself included probably feel like when you do well you get the confidence that you can do well again.

There's that also whereas when you fail you're like uh like >> you can do that again too. [laughter]

>> Do you tell your dancers that?

>> No, because my dancers don't fail. M

>> that's why I work with dancers who want to work as hard as I do.

>> Let's talk more about that process. In

your book, you talked about failure being critical, failing a lot a lot in private.

>> Yeah.

>> That had a big impact on me.

>> Uhhuh.

>> I think that the this notion of making lots and lots of failures and mistakes >> Yeah. privately. When you're working,

>> Yeah. privately. When you're working, you don't know if it's a failure or not.

You only know if it's useful. You know

if it's exciting. You know if it generates a next question. That's

useful. You don't know if it's good or bad.

>> Let's go back to your dancers and and how you put them through uh the paces, so to speak, because I think it also frames up this notion of rituals very

very nicely. For the uninformed like

very nicely. For the uninformed like myself, give us an example of your day and a day in the studio. the top contour of that

>> it depends on where you are in this wonderful word called process if you are uh at the beginning it's all more fluid

um and while the one key ingredient I I have always found to doing work is you got to be able to do a schedule you got to be able to tell people what time

they're coming and what shoes to bring okay that's already actually made a lot of choices is for you. Uh, and that's that I think is a good thing. I mean,

there's no point in just saying, "Oh, we'll work whenever you get here and you know, bring whatever." Whatever is not my favorite word.

So, choices get made. Uh, and a schedule gets done. And ordinarily, uh, again, it

gets done. And ordinarily, uh, again, it depends on what the project is, but, uh, if it's, let's just give as much range

here as possible. If it's uh me making a new piece, I will set a schedule.

Dancers come in, they will have done class themselves. They will come warm.

class themselves. They will come warm.

Okay, that is not a part of my day. I

have my own work to do in preparing for that rehearsal, but in in also maintaining my own physical instrument to the degree that I can because the

more I can bring into the studio, the more I can give them and the more I can expect them to bring in. So I have a

tandem path going on here with the dancers and we meet up, we join um and I usually will come with a certain preset

sense of where we're going with this thing and then see how it actually works in real time in real space which is a

very um useful and tough mistress uh and eliminates a lot of fantasy very quickly.

Who decides who gets to work with you?

>> I do. Well, that's actually not true. In

a way, they do. The dancers that uh I work with, I obviously audition, but I also screen from the perspective of who wants to work with me,

>> who's going to come and say, "Yeah, I'll go through that wall. Is that what we're doing? I'll go through the wall." And

doing? I'll go through the wall." And

you want to know that you have that in the room. you're not going to ask them

the room. you're not going to ask them to go through the wall all the time, but you know, if it seemed like it was an approach that was going to be useful, you got to know that that commitment is

really solid and that's best indicated by their desire, not your finding them totally appropriate, but their desire.

>> Are most dancers uh living with the understanding that it's going to be very very long hours and probably very little pay for a while?

>> For sure. very little pay and forever >> wild world >> crazy crazy and to my way of thinking not acceptable because you know I'm all in favor of the folks who do the work

and the training to accomplish physically and I don't make a clear distinction between either folks who are in business or athletes to me it is all

the same enterprise but dancers have nowhere near the uh possibility ility of uh earning a living that a great athlete

has not even sort of kind of in the ballpark, not even in the parking lot, not even on the highway to the ball game.

How did this happen and why does it continue?

>> It raises interesting questions how we support the arts or don't support the arts. I think

arts. I think >> are we taking over your show for the next two and a half years? if if if we must, you know, this conversation no doubt will draw some additional attention to dance. But the the larger

issue of >> of you know, people being able to make it in the arts as not just as a as a luxury, but as a like critical piece of

culture and life. I mean, I love beautiful things. I love beautiful dogs.

beautiful things. I love beautiful dogs.

Most all dogs are beautiful. Um, even

the bulldogs. Uh, but I love beautiful things. And it and it enriches life in

things. And it and it enriches life in more ways than just feeling delighted. I

think there's immense carryover from uh the arts to other areas of of culture.

And uh so we could make an economic argument about that, but it's part of the reason you're here. But just sort of return to the this business of of of ritual.

>> Can I interrupt you before you go there?

Because I'd like to take up two things.

One is the notion of the reality being that when we do a successful performance, I measure it by did that

audience leave in a better frame of mind than it came in with. In other words, we provide a service >> and we provide a service that gives them a sense of optimism

uh yay verily I might even go to joy uh to the belief that they have that they too occupy this body that does these phenomenal things and thank you Lord

>> okay that's a service [clears throat] >> I think dancers should be paid more for that service and that it needs to be acknowledged the other point that I want

to bring up is you've used it twice now.

I didn't stop you the first word.

Beauty. What is this?

>> It could be something I see or hear that um it stirs a some set of emotions in me that carries forward. And what you just said a moment ago about the audience leaves in a different state. I mean,

it's the word that came to mind was like it's like really great therapy, but it's in some sense it's better than that because um

I was also thinking that perhaps in the top 10 of all my favorite memories are several live performances that I which I

was the observer. It's like those things really stick with us and I think they change us in in in meaningful ways, especially when we're in the audience with other people, not just watching on a on a screen. They can be

transformative for sure. And in a live audience becomes of course a whole another thing about cost and and expenditures, but that it confirms that

that not only do you feel a new righteousness for yourself by a performance, but that you sense others do as well. And that creates a community

uh bonding. And you know, okay, football

uh bonding. And you know, okay, football games, you know, everybody is very rowdy about it. Uh most performances people

about it. Uh most performances people are not. But that doesn't mean that it

are not. But that doesn't mean that it still doesn't take that hold of people who are experiencing the same thing in real time. We tend to dismiss that which

real time. We tend to dismiss that which is familiar [clears throat] >> and that that sense

is actually not all that familiar but it feels very intimate and it is uh but it actually is quite rare and the rarer a piece of art and I will call a

performance a piece of art is the more value it has and the more that is compensated for culturally and economically. There should be a price

economically. There should be a price point on beauty. Let's put it that way.

>> Well, there is for everything else.

>> Well, I know.

>> Yeah. You know, there is a price point for beauty in terms of people could say, "Well, the sunrise is free and the sunrise is beautiful, but seeing it in certain locations costs a lot more money than seeing it in other locations."

That's for sure.

>> Right. And that that brings up another thing because in a way it's a kind of horrible thinking to go, "Yeah, it's a privilege. You know what? You can't pay

privilege. You know what? You can't pay me. you can't bite me. I don't have a

me. you can't bite me. I don't have a price. And that I'm sure is one of the

price. And that I'm sure is one of the things in great dancers who are certainly not paid as I've said before and I'll say at least 300,000 times more

commensurate with a great athlete. That

is probably one and I've never actually I never brought it up directly with a great dancer. How much is it your own

great dancer. How much is it your own sense of independence and liberty that makes you the artist that you are?

>> I think the name that most people probably associate with dance is probably Berishnikov. If they don't know

probably Berishnikov. If they don't know much about dance, they know that name or it they it's familiar to them. What was

it about Mikuel Berishnikov that sort of had him break through the common consciousness that way?

First of all, Misha uh Moore these days actually is remembered by younger generations from his later cultural

input, i.e. Sex in the City than he is

input, i.e. Sex in the City than he is as a classical ballet artist. All right,

let's just start there >> because he showed up in Sex in the City as a as a character.

>> Yes.

And that's and that's how he is often recognized by younger audiences, younger, you know, folk. Uh what was he

in the beginning? He was actually there was a chalice, then there was Nuraf and then Misha. He politically he came

then Misha. He politically he came across the line. It was Russia, America.

He chose America. He's our hero. Plus

which he was gorgeous.

He's unquestionably, in my opinion, in that era, the possessor of a technique that was a culmination of the 20th century and that

will never be matched. And to see him work at the bar or to see him in the uh

absolute interior realm of what the classical ballet was was an unbelievable privilege.

But not many people saw that. Not many

people saw him at the bar. Uh which is where you build your your chops. Okay.

He also was capable of taking those chops and expanding on them, breaking through their boundaries, trying it this way, do it that way, but utilizing the

power that he had from that simple classical base to take it outward. Lots

of inventiveness in that regard. And the

guy was gorgeous. What can I tell you?

>> His his looks.

>> What does that mean? But what does that mean? It means a

mean? It means a wide ranging interest that you feel includes you as you the spectator. You

feel he's including you in his wideness of vision. Where does that come from?

of vision. Where does that come from?

from the intellect, from his musicality, from his training, from his personality, uh from his cultural breeding, Latvian.

Uh and it is a singular commodification, one of my favorite words that drives people up the walls when I use that word in relation to the arts of performing.

Um but he was very very very astute in many different areas starting

from uh an athletic ability through to a poetic sensibility.

>> It's interesting you said that because uh he was attractive that people felt that they were a part of it in a way that was not

>> we all want to be godly. We all want to be a part of the sublime.

Few can give us that.

>> So when they say, you know, artists or I include dancers, I just broadly speaking artists are are like portals.

Is that what you mean?

>> I would accept that.

>> Years ago, I went to a Philip Glass concert at UC Berkeley. I'll be honest,

I didn't understand it. I left there in a different state mostly of a confusion um that people were willing to pay for that. I'm sorry if I'm insulting any

that. I'm sorry if I'm insulting any Philip Glass fans, but this is my podcast. I'm going to be very direct.

podcast. I'm going to be very direct.

>> Okay.

>> I was told I maybe hadn't seen the right Philip Glass concert. I was very confused.

>> Why?

>> You know, I'm not a musician. I'm not um but when I like something, I I know I like it and I tend to really like it.

But it it's rare for me to encounter something that's like it just felt like um it felt extremely experimental at

every at every part of it. And I and I couldn't tell whether or not people were telling themselves that they liked it because it was him or whether they really liked it.

>> What year is this that you went to this concert?

>> Gosh, this must have been 200 >> eight. 2007 2008

>> eight. 2007 2008 >> that's very late okay so Phil obviously has been working uh since the 60s and I've done one major collaboration with

Phil and one recent collaboration um and in the beginning uh the audience for minimalism

right uh Reich Riley glass uh came gradually and so when the initial piece called in

the upper room was done. Uh it had a power and a force that involved also discovery. Now the later piece which is

discovery. Now the later piece which is called slactide fills a known commodity and

was addressed slightly differently uh rather than I mean you know Phil it's percussive the lyric element has

been reduced okay and you're a sensitive soul you think of the word beauty and that does not mean total elimination Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It

means inclusion. Uh, and so the later glass work was done in conjunction with a Chicago percussion group called Third

Coast, who Phil's worked with a lot and who he trusts to do iterations, if you will, on the work. And we iterated with a flute. Flutes don't do this.

a flute. Flutes don't do this.

[applause] >> Flutes do this. So we put a stream on top of that that's in the music. I mean

iterations are a study in and of themselves, right? What makes something

themselves, right? What makes something different from and yet still the same as Good luck with that one. Uh but that that was the different range. I dare say

if you go and look at because Third Coast is uh produced a recording of this work, you listen to Slack Tide and then tell me your response to Glass. But but

basically minimalism took uh the lyric element uh and reduced it to just the temporal passage in time. What's

interesting, because of all the concerts I've seen, this one still sticks with me as like a a stimulus to learn more.

Because one thing that I'm totally fascinated by and perplexed by is that with the exception of comedy, the more one learns about something, the artists,

what went into the art, the dance, what went into it, typically the more one likes that piece or that genre. Like the

more I I learn about something, then the then I can listen to it with a different ear. I can watch it with it with a

ear. I can watch it with it with a different eye. Comedy is the exception.

different eye. Comedy is the exception.

If it's not funny, learning about the origins of the joke don't make it any funnier. Learning about the comedian

funnier. Learning about the comedian doesn't make it funnier. It just it sort of just like falls further and further.

>> See, I think that's true of your other art forms, too. I think you're confusing, forgive me, knowledge with instinct. I mean, instinctively you're

instinct. I mean, instinctively you're responding to the humor, but instinctively, uh, a a piece of art can can reach you, but you can be baffled by

it. But we don't like confusion. So, we

it. But we don't like confusion. So, we

might call that something we should learn about before we can acknowledge liking it.

>> That's one of the things that is, I think, really difficult and something I think a lot about, which is, uh, not only protecting but refining instinct.

>> Tell me more about that. I know. It's

fascinating, isn't it? I can't tell you about it because I could be writing a book.

>> Oh, well, Rick Rubin, um, who I feel, even though you haven't met yet, you share a certain kinship with, talks about taste all the time about this, >> you know, a sense of taste and trusting

your own sense of taste as a consumer and as a creator, right, >> is so key. That's why I brought up the Philip Glass thing because I'm not writing off Glass on the basis of one

one concert. But I I didn't walk out of

one concert. But I I didn't walk out of there thinking like maybe I'm an idiot.

Maybe I didn't get it. I thought and I didn't think they're all idiots. I just

thought I guess I'm just different because everyone else here seems to really love this. And this is like I just doesn't hit me right. It's like a I don't like sardines. [laughter] Never

like sardines. You give me a 100 sardines, I'm going to hate them 100 times more than the first sardine. I

promise. Because I've eaten a hundred sardines. It's just But I don't care

sardines. It's just But I don't care that I don't like sardines. You just I'm I'm over it. I was over it from the first sardine.

>> Right.

Phil's on the cusp of the avant guard.

The avant guard is a smug place to be and can be very aggravating and can also

be not that bright and very indulgent.

There might have been some sense of that to it. The avantgard can confuse itself

to it. The avantgard can confuse itself with originality and vice versa.

>> Do you think it's important for dancers to be classically trained before they get into other forms?

>> To be classically trained, absolutely.

You want to be a musician and not understand the circle of fifths, the harmonies of construction of all music.

No. Ballet is a format for the human body moving in space that has evolved over many centuries and has got a head start on us. And if you want to learn

about how you move, you might as well try and jump a little further forward by studying ballet. I don't care ultimately

studying ballet. I don't care ultimately if you're arabesque, which is one leg behind, one leg under, right? if your

arabesque is aligned in a perfectly classical manner unless it's a perfectly classical ballet. But I do care you have

classical ballet. But I do care you have that gear and you can reference it in terms of where's the leg going to move from and does it get to that point. Can

it stop right on its center or not?

That's what ballet can do. If there's a proper way for a movement to be done, the limb, the every element within the limb has to move from point A to point B

in a certain trajectory.

And people come in different sizes and shapes and you've got multiple dancers on stage. How do you reconcile that?

on stage. How do you reconcile that?

>> You don't. Uh, and the word is properly.

Properly. What What is proper? Uh

[sighs] I had the experience of of working with the Kira off uh in St. Petersburg and I

went to their school and uh the children are lined up and

they are exact replicas and they have a huge selection mechanism throughout the country for picking those 10 or 12 kids

that are going to be in there of whatever age. Um, and I saw one group of

whatever age. Um, and I saw one group of little little boys, uh, less than eight years old. There were probably eight or

years old. There were probably eight or nine of them in their little black shorts, their little white shirts. And,

uh, I just came in briefly and they were being, you know, as they do. It's a part of the tradition. It's wonderful. Uh,

they're being very respectful and it was like, oh, come in and you will sit here and they will continue and then we're getting moved to the next class. And one

little boy came out and said, "No, no, no. We want to do more." So we went back

no. We want to do more." So we went back and they started jumping out of sequence because the ballet class is very carefully constructed to warm up the

body and also to develop the training.

So you're working both laterally and in depth in every technique class. They

went out of sequence so the boys could jump, which is usually not done till the very end of class. And this little guy had real what we call bowel. He could go up and he could like for moments just it

seems like he's able to suspend. He knew

he had that and he knew I wouldn't see that at the bar. So he wanted to but he was [clears throat] what we call pronated. His feet were hyperextended to

pronated. His feet were hyperextended to the outside. So he's not going straight

the outside. So he's not going straight up through the metatarsal. He's going up through the outside of the leg. And uh

you know I pulled the teacher out and I said, "You know that kid's phenomenally talented."

talented." And he said, "Yeah, we know." Uh, and he said, "But he's pronated." He said, "We know that, too, but we have eight other ones." Like, we if he doesn't figure

ones." Like, we if he doesn't figure that out, he's out and we'll bring in another one. And this can be the

another one. And this can be the difference between a child who grows into an adult with a career and a life and one who's lost. So, parents are very protective of trying to get this

opportunity for their kids. And it's

heartbreaking. And the way they are trained is they are wrenched into these positions. And I saw in an older class

positions. And I saw in an older class of young girls uh an arabesque and one leg was not slightly behind. The teacher

came and literally pinned the leg behind with one arm and drew the shoulder out this way. Literally pushed her and then

this way. Literally pushed her and then released her. And that's how they teach.

released her. And that's how they teach.

You think that's going to happen in America? I don't think so. And that's

America? I don't think so. And that's

what it takes to create a line of people who at the bar hit exactly the same arabesque.

It's both a thing of extraordinary beauty and a thing of incredible lack of choice because that arabesque is

going to be set for life in that one angular demarcation, right? And you

know, heaven knows here in the west we like to encourage all kinds of wanderings around which is hard to get through the head of a child who's been trained in this way to stay within those

parameters. And it says something also

parameters. And it says something also obviously about the political situation, right? Those kids don't have a lot of

right? Those kids don't have a lot of choice. They tow the line.

choice. They tow the line.

>> So is the goal to get that uniformity?

>> Absolutely. Uh and and it's a I mean for a person who works sometimes to what's called unison, there are times when you want I don't do it that often. It's a

lot of work and I don't like what it says about democracy. But if you need to have unison, you want unison and that

means an exact agreement on time and space. Now your other question about

space. Now your other question about what about different body types and so forth. I can accommodate that uh because

forth. I can accommodate that uh because I can gain my unison from the center.

What we're talking about the ballet here it gains it from the periphery from the exterior point from the broad reach.

I'll accept my broad reach is not going to be actually in uniform but my center is going to be and I'll make that comp.

It's a compromise of sorts. It's not

really a compromise. It's an agreement.

I'll make that definition because I want them to work from an interior purpose and the visuals of it are your problem.

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drinkag1.com/huberman to get started. I'm going to ask a couple of questions in the frame of biology.

>> Okay, >> that I think um I'm hoping you you might find interesting, but I you certainly have the information that I'm seeking here.

First off, uh you may know this uh but if you don't, there's a great Nobel Prizewinning physiologist, his name was Sharington, and he said the final common

path is movement. That basically the movement of an organism, especially mammals, is is really what the nervous system is constructed for. And you know

more modern theories are that you know movement came and dance came then song then language you know but that that movement is the foundation of of

everything as it relates to evolution of a species finding mates finding food.

>> Can I interrupt you >> please? It is even more basic because

>> please? It is even more basic because movement is the first thing we're going to do. And you don't make any sound

to do. And you don't make any sound until you can move parts of you. You

don't feed yourself until you can move that hand. You don't write anything,

that hand. You don't write anything, language, music or nada without movement. Why do we therefore stick

movement. Why do we therefore stick movement way down here under the bottom of our cultural heap as somehow shameful

or what? What is it with the aspect of

or what? What is it with the aspect of dance that makes it a less kind of revered format than sculpture or painting or music? A secondary

handmaiden to the arts really.

>> Well, I certainly appreciate movement and I know that um and I like to think that people's obsession with athleticism in some sense reflects that too.

>> Totally. I've been wanting to ask you this question for a very long time uh since I heard your book even though it's not about the creative process and and here goes uh I'm going to keep this as brief as

possible um just to give the the raw materials for for your uh response. So

the motor neurons, the neurons that control movement, uh they control movement of the trunk, they control movement of the fine digits of the fingers that are the fingers, the digits

as we call them in science, right? Nerds

speak, the wrists, everything. So we say from proximal to distal like from center out there's this incredible thing that's been discovered over the last 20 years or so which is that the molecular

identities of the neurons that control the movement of my trunk and your trunk forward and back and side to side are exactly the same as the neurons that

control undulation in a fish.

The neurons that control the movement of the proximal limbs, like the upper arms and the thighs, are molecularly identical

to the neurons that exist to control fin movement in fish. And that what evolved was progressively more and more motor neurons so that we as old world primates

can manipulate the fine digits in like so. Okay, so that's fine. And that just

so. Okay, so that's fine. And that just tells you that there's this kind of primitive to more evolved structure of neurons that control movement from center up.

What's fascinating to me is that while I'm sure there are people who can move their trunk at very high frequency, you know, undulate very high frequency, that's a hard thing to do. That that

generally has to be learned. Like I can move my trunk slowly from side to side, but it's hard to move it very fast from side to side, but I can move my fingers very fast. And so there's there's

very fast. And so there's there's basically a frequency map from the center out on the body. So now

when I look at the way people move I think because I'm a neuroscientist and I have this knowledge in my head like they're they're communicating frequency

and frequency in the visual in photon space gives you very interesting you know wave we have wavelength we have also frequency like we we in sound you

have high low and high pitches low to high pitch and in other domains you also have this and so to me first of all I'd love your thoughts on this. I'm not I'm not asking for validation of a theory.

This is just is what it is. I didn't

come up with this. But I wonder whether or not consciously or unconsciously when you've choreographed dance, whether or not you're making music with movement in

a way that maps on to this idea of a frequency map from center out. Maybe in

part, no. Sweetness, my love. Did we not discuss already much earlier the importance and um specifity specificity specificity

of center.

Now what you're saying about the different rates of the tendrils, the neurons, the cellular >> Yeah. the neurons that control the the

>> Yeah. the neurons that control the the trunk versus the upper arms versus the the >> Yeah. that this this is this is got more

>> Yeah. that this this is this is got more uh choice can make more choice than this can make. Mhm.

can make. Mhm.

>> Do I think about the parts of the body as sometimes in other words the legs can be working at one rate of speed say half

time of what the uh the arm is doing and they'll be on the same metronomic base but they'll be operating at a different speed certainly I would think of that uh

what I think about power uh that sometimes uh you can isolate through the center and there'll be like a huge impact from the top but that the body the lower body will be fluid sometimes.

I mean, I've ripped off Tai Chi forever.

It's okay. Uh, so we're doing Taichi and suddenly and then we're back into it, right? Uh,

so it's like just like a jolt goes through it and I suppose that's a change in your neurological construct. I mean,

what interests me in what you're saying is a part of the nightmare of my life, which is dance has difficulty. And one

of the reasons it has difficulty in being registered by many people in our culture is that it doesn't have easy

access to being documented and recorded in the way that music does or language does. What you're saying, I've argued

does. What you're saying, I've argued for many years, should be a way of documenting movement that people could read and then they could read the dance

and then they would feel grounded in that tradition and understanding of that tradition. They could under they could

tradition. They could under they could study that tradition. That's not now possible. I'd like to talk about the

possible. I'd like to talk about the creative process a bit in a way that perhaps people can, you know, structure

uh some of their own creative pursuits.

At what point do you know the spine?

>> The beginning and the end.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. What do I mean? In the beginning, uh you hope for it. Uh and you have a little taste of it or you wouldn't be able to I wouldn't be able to start uh without the tiniest little indication

there's something there that's actually going to hook in. And that's going to allow me to start building. And this is where process becomes very reassuring.

You start building the wall. You're just

mixing the mortar and putting the brick in. Mixing the mortar, putting the and

in. Mixing the mortar, putting the and the wall grows and it develops all of this stuff happening and you're just doing the mortar and the brick and it's

very not menacing and extraordinarily rewarding in the place you want to live.

But you can't because you got to finish the work and let it go. a dismal moment.

>> Maybe we put this into example. Let's

say I want to write a a short story.

I realize you're a choreographer, not a writing instructor, but we we say like what's the would you say? And then you say, well, someone says that they want to write stories or books. So, what's

the spine?

>> The first thing is what's the idea? The

first thing is where where is the where's the story? I mean, some writers have to know the end before they can start at the beginning. Others want

nothing to do with the end until they've at least reached the middle because they want the work to find itself. Uh that

all is, you know, that's a part of the privilege of being a writer and the pain of being a writer. Um but the uh

construct of starting sometimes it's simply habit and discipline. Um, and uh you are going to go in and you are going

to start at let's say 6:45 every morning and you're going to give yourself you've only got an hour and a half. Okay? I'm

not talking about you're a professional writer. I'm talking about you're a

writer. I'm talking about you're a person uh who maybe wants to become a professional writer but who's got at least one other job and maybe two and probably a kid to deal with. An hour and

a half is a lot of time for in that life. So starting you got to start with

life. So starting you got to start with something and either there's an idea that you're that you really are uh

energized by or just you know you start writing something gets something on the page and bit by bit it becomes a habit and maybe that habit evolves and maybe

it doesn't and maybe you give it up and maybe you find that you then you get an idea you find something you keep returning to and it pulls fles you. It

It hypnotizes you. Uh it makes you want to follow it, see where it will go to, see how it will develop and then at a certain point it's done. It's it's

played out. Uh maybe you can guide that so that it becomes more exciting and you learn how to build as you're going along and you learn how to direct it so that

it's going to get to either a surprising end where it has to end and the reader is going to say, "I should have seen that." or you're going to say, "I should

that." or you're going to say, "I should have seen that." Or you're going to go, "No way. You're a liar. I'm not going to

"No way. You're a liar. I'm not going to buy this book."

>> But the showing up at 6:45 consistently is the is the is the the brick laying that's essential.

>> Yeah. Because it allows you to think that you could be a writer.

>> Sort of living into a a a delusion that could be a reality.

>> Could be.

>> Yeah.

And maybe it's not a delusion because maybe what you start to write immediately is a very interesting sentence or two.

>> Some days maybe >> some days. Yeah. You can't expect a good time every day.

>> You might want to quote me on that.

You have a reputation for having uh risen early and gotten to the gym by 5:00 a.m. for two hours, eating three

5:00 a.m. for two hours, eating three hard-boiled eggs postworkout, day in after day out for a very long time. Uh

tell us about that ritual and uh do you still enjoy it?

>> It's not a ritual and I never enjoyed it. It's a reality and uh you do it

it. It's a reality and uh you do it because you need an instrument that you can challenge and in order to challenge something you got to know how it stands.

I mean I could challenge you wouldn't want me to the centering of this but I can only do it if it's already grounded then I can try to throw it off. You

can't just throw things off. They've got

to be set before you can throw them off.

Right? So that is you just set the mechanism for the day you're going to have to do it.

It's kind of boring and it's kind of lonesome. I would rather go to the gym

lonesome. I would rather go to the gym than brush my teeth. I'll tell you that.

>> Could you give us a bit of insight into your inner dialogue around days when you don't want to go? Is there a selft talk or have you learned to push aside the the voice that says maybe not today?

>> Yeah. No, no, no, no. Uh it's simple. If

you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.

End of story.

>> Were you always like this?

>> What do you mean like this?

>> I didn't [laughter] mean that in that sense. And you know, I didn't.

sense. And you know, I didn't.

>> I don't.

>> You know, I didn't. You know, I didn't.

I meant were have you always been this disciplined and had this uh this clear view of the necessity for hard work.

>> My mother was an extraordinary force in anybody's life. She happened to be in

anybody's life. She happened to be in mine. Okay. I was trained as a very

mine. Okay. I was trained as a very young child to practice.

Uh whether anything everything had to be practiced. It had to be scheduled to be

practiced. It had to be scheduled to be practiced and time is limited and you don't waste it and you work very hard and you try to maximize that period of

time because otherwise you're being wasteful. And while I said I'm from San

wasteful. And while I said I'm from San Burdue, I am, but I'm not. I am from the Midwest. I was born in Indiana um and

Midwest. I was born in Indiana um and left when I was eight. Uh but up until that point I had the extraordinary good fortune of being on my grandparents'

farm uh for long stretches of time without my parents and these farms were in uh Amish territory and the family's

Quaker and the land was the land period.

There was no electricity. There were no phones. There was plant the seed, grow

phones. There was plant the seed, grow the seed, kill the hogs, ring the check chicken's neck, and you work or you don't eat. Yeah. The Midwest sensibility

don't eat. Yeah. The Midwest sensibility is something to behold. I have a lot of friends from the Midwest. There's a real decency out there in terms of how people communicate with one another, who they

do and don't know. And there's a real thing to farmers. at Stanford uh when I was a posttock there was a MD PhD student in the laboratory she had grown

up on a mushroom farm not the psilocybin mushrooms the kind you eat and don't hallucinate on a mushroom farm in rural Pennsylvania and her work ethic and this

is at Stanford school of medicine where people are very driven not just on average but >> her work ethic was unbelievable

>> and her cheerfulness about it was also unbelievable.

>> It was spectacular.

>> The delight in fact.

>> Yeah. She had a bike accident on a few people will know who this is. She had a horrible bike accident on campus.

Knocked out all her teeth. Someone had

stepped out in front of her with at >> she was back in the laboratory with falsies in and working. I think within like 48 hours. This would have put anyone else out for a much longer time.

I haven't kept up with her, but I'm sure that she's a spectacular physician uh scientist wherever she is. But there's

really something to the the the farming piece.

>> It is communal and it is the sense that while these farms are very isolated, I mean, you know, 100 acre plots that are divided by tree barriers from one

another, uh uh [clears throat] that somebody has your back all the time. I

still have my grandmother's quilting frames and the they uh when established it require eight women, a four to a side and the quilt gets done and then you

make eight of them and each one gets a quilt. Uh and you you know that to do

quilt. Uh and you you know that to do the big job, the barn that's got to get up, you you have to utilize forces

outside yourself uh in order to accomplish this. and that you owe you

accomplish this. and that you owe you owe them and you want to it it's not an obligation it's a sharing and you understand okay I'm getting that barn I

owe services here for seven more barns or whatever this is an excellent thing and I do try to think of dance that way

and I do think a well-made dance is a good community It's society as it ought to be.

>> It works the way we should work together.

>> You mentioned Quaker.

>> Yeah.

>> I've been to a couple Quaker meetings.

>> Silent meetings.

>> Yeah. Every once in a while someone would stand up and say something at a friend who was a there's a Quaker house near where I used to live when I was finishing my masters and I got became friendly with a guy outside because we

would drink coffee the same coffee shop and chat and he was like you should come to a meeting. You might find it interesting. And I I knew I was in a a

interesting. And I I knew I was in a a benevolent place when I walked in because you know in Berkeley, California, if somebody says, "Hey, you should come to a meeting." And you're like, [laughter] like, you know, like you don't know what you're getting into,

right? Um but they had a a picture of

right? Um but they had a a picture of the Quaker Oats uh guy on the wall as a joke. I knew like, okay, these they can

joke. I knew like, okay, these they can poke some fun at themselves. So yeah,

someone would stand up every once in a while, say something, there was some reflection, and then at the end, everyone kind of like said goodbye and took off. It was it was it was

took off. It was it was it was interesting.

>> Yeah. That those in in those days for me were Wednesday evenings and they were silent meetings and there would be meetings where no one

had anyone to say any anything to say.

They were silent meetings and simply you can help me out here. They were not using language, but surely neural rays were going out. And probably if there

had been a catastrophe in the culture, you know, some kind of huge fire or something awful, you know, that people are thinking, you have a sense of what

that thinking is. And that there was and is and can be a kind of nonverbal communication. That's not even a

communication. That's not even a physical. You're not using sign language

physical. You're not using sign language to communicate. Uh but that you have a

to communicate. Uh but that you have a sense of what we called in the day in the air. In the air

the air. In the air and that that is a very powerful form of communication that we don't really

respect anymore. And how potent is it

anymore. And how potent is it neurologically?

>> This last year um the podcast series telepathy tapes was very very popular. I

haven't had a chance to watch it in full. I listened to a little bit of it.

full. I listened to a little bit of it.

It's about how kids who are non-verbal perhaps can tap into this and it's gotten some criticism from the standard scientific community, but also less than

you would have anticipated if it had all been complete BS. So, I think there's, you know, it's it's gotten partial acceptance there. Um, this brings us

acceptance there. Um, this brings us back to the notion of a center. Believe

it or not, fish have lateral lines. They

sense the electrical fields of other fish and other things near them. Um, I

mean, there's many, many examples from the animal kingdom of, you know, like the platypus with its uh electric it people call it an electric sensing bill, but it sends out these electrical fields that then it can detect things in its

environment because its vision is very poor. M

poor. M >> um somebody once said uh Ed Yong the writer said that so many animals rely on smell. We sort of smell with our eyes

smell. We sort of smell with our eyes which sounds crazy but we use our eyes the way that other animals use their noses and that gives you an insight into

how they use their noses. But most

animals have a sense of how close or far other members of their species and other things are. We tend not to think about

things are. We tend not to think about that unless you live in a big open space and you get on the New York subway and like suddenly you're like, "Whoa, this is pretty, you know, this is different."

Um, but we have these, we don't really have a lateral line, but we have remnants of things that are similar.

They're beautiful studies showing that if you look for in an experimental context magneetto reception in the human brain, people perform above chance. In

other words, we can detect magnetic fields. People are going to think I'm

fields. People are going to think I'm crazy, but this is published in Science magazine. Yeah, we can sense electric

magazine. Yeah, we can sense electric fields, but we sort of have to train ourselves to do it. And perhaps some people are just naturally leaning that way. So, there absolutely

way. So, there absolutely is, when I say energetic, neural communication across space that isn't just words, sounds, sound waves, and

vision, uh, photons. So,

there's stuff happening at a distance and smell. I think we we vastly uh you

and smell. I think we we vastly uh you know underestimate the extent to which pherommones and odors of people who are upset or you know there's a study showing that human tears of affect

hormones and people around them.

>> You need to have a 16-year-old boy around you when it comes to the sensitivity to smell and [laughter] perfumes being sold commercially these days.

>> Oh my goodness. But the thing about distance is something that I'm very very interested in. I mean the awareness is

interested in. I mean the awareness is mostly visual for dancers. Uh and it's usually established again in class. If

you have a crow crowded class, you the distance can be the next one would be out here from this point.

>> But a really crowded class, the distance might be out here. In which case, you're going to be angling yourself to the diagonal. So you're able to get full

diagonal. So you're able to get full full reach which is going to impact on design right uh but there are also ways

and it's very demanding actually and it requires a lot of trust on everybody's part where I can get dancers to work very close together and that has a real

visual impact and it becomes a physical sensation of the person watching it can become an anxiety oh don't step on the she's going to get stepped on and it it

you know there I'm kind of using it crassly and but it it's interesting to push people in uh into what's called one

another's space uh and be able to condense the amount of area that people feel comfortable in or require which could be a very good thing culturally speaking because we got less and less

space. Yeah, it's interesting that the

space. Yeah, it's interesting that the the this notion of communication across space. If we could just continue down

space. If we could just continue down this path a bit. Last year I had the great honor really to do a lecture about music in the brain with Renee Fleming,

the the the great opera singer. And we

got on to this topic of the fact that the opera singers will capture an emotion. They're using their diaphragm

emotion. They're using their diaphragm in a very particular way, getting a certain frequency of vibration in their body, obviously using air, you know,

shaping the air as it leaves their their lungs to to sing and how maybe that's actually impacting the same sets of

neurons in the audience, but they're not singing. Okay. This is kind of

singing. Okay. This is kind of interesting idea that we're you're feeling the emotion of the singer because your your frenic nerve, the nerve that controls the diaphragm, it might be vibrating at a similar frequency.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> This gets back to this like more I don't want to call them primitive but more fundamental aspects of language and communication.

>> Yes. I wonder with dance and perhaps with athleticism too, like on a football field, when we see somebody move or people move in a certain way, whether or not there we

don't realize it perhaps, but that there's almost the illusion that we're moving like that.

>> Like we're accessing this idea of a portals like art as portals that we're we're actually sensing at some level what it would be like to move like that.

And of course, I can't >> absolutely. I mean, you know these

>> absolutely. I mean, you know these ocular glasses, right? That you believe that you're projecting yourself into that

item up there and actually feeling it.

Hello. Right. [clears throat]

>> That must be what is is working, what's creating that illusion. You're not

really inside that item, but you feel and believe as though you are.

>> Yeah. I've done a VR where it's a you think you're in a different body. It's

>> right.

>> Really weird and kind of cool, >> I guess. So I I I'm a little terrified to deal with it or also I haven't taken the time to really expose myself to it.

Um it definitely is of interest, but you know, when you talk about soccer or an athletic event, you know, you you can feel in boxing, you can feel the impact.

You can feel how much poundage is behind that punch.

>> Yeah. You boxed.

>> Yeah. with Teddy Atlas as your trainer.

>> We have some friends of Teddy Atlas around here.

>> Yes.

>> Uh what motivated that?

>> I was in my early 40s and uh the Olympics were in LA and I was making a new piece and I wanted to compete. Uh

but there are no competitions for what I do. I mean a dancer's range is much more

do. I mean a dancer's range is much more than um and and athletes not to the same degree in specialization but across the

border speed flexibility uh you know maneuverability in air uh coordination flexibility dancers got all of these

components to a very high degree. So no

events for uh me at the Olympics. uh but

I could make a piece that would be highly athletic and I wanted to be in the very best possible shape I could be in. Uh so uh I decided uh that the

in. Uh so uh I decided uh that the training that was involved in a boxer being in shape uh was more extreme than

what I was doing with my dancing regimen. Uh and that the you know the

regimen. Uh and that the you know the rope coordination, the stamina being involved, the power coming off the punch, the uh grounding of the body so

that you had a punch, uh the willingness to take the blow in exchange for the unwillingness to go down. You would not go down. You're not going down.

go down. You're not going down.

And we don't do that in dance. So I

figured, well, I'll go where they do do that. So Teddy, we we were running steps

that. So Teddy, we we were running steps backwards. This is a very good thing. I

backwards. This is a very good thing. I

mean, you know, uh and the shadow boxing, it's a great great training format.

>> Yeah, I agree. Um you know, as a neuroscientist, I have to put a call out against sparring for anyone who's not trying to make it a profession and maybe even for those that are, that's their

choice. But um but speed bag work and um

choice. But um but speed bag work and um the vis the visual coordination that's involved is also incredible. near far,

but also just switching from peripheral to central vision is I imagine it it improves the brain in many many ways except for the getting hit in the head part.

>> Well, probably.

>> And you're also well known for being quite strong. Tell us about your

quite strong. Tell us about your deadlift. Uh

deadlift. Uh >> well I mean no uh it's I I was training with uh in a real weight gym with competitive weightlifters u and was very

serious >> uh from the time I was probably in my 50s until mid60s say um and that you were nobody in that gym if you didn't do

your body weight for three on the bench I mean you know what are you in here for right so it had that kind of uh require environment to it. Uh, which is very

encouraging if you want to lift heavy weight.

Uh, and also snapped ammonia, right?

Which is like, okay, I actually never did that. But the jolt of pulling more

did that. But the jolt of pulling more weight off the ground than you really can do or you have ever done really does sound send a rush to the body that is

unique.

>> And what was your personal record?

>> 227.

>> 227 deadlift. Yep.

>> Awesome.

>> Well, I don't know about that. I mean,

you just do it day in day out. And I

wasn't, you know, you can't train day in day out, but training rigorously and continuously for probably eight or 10 years. Yeah.

years. Yeah.

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>> Several times you've mentioned the bar.

>> Um, I think most of us understand there's a bar along the wall with a mirror sometimes behind it, etc. What for the uninformed like for me um what

is what is bar work really about and what and could you give us an example of a few I mean is it designed to improve flexibility is it for what what is this

notion of the bar?

>> All the above. A bar is a set regimen of exercises that are developed to strengthen uh the

structure of the body to basically approach the jumps to gain height in the air for the men, for the women if they're working on point. the strength

in the legs and the torso to be able to support that weight in the little area down here. Uh and so it's developed

down here. Uh and so it's developed essentially from bars evolved but basically their format is brilliantly

designed uh and begins with uh usually pa uh which the terminology is French which means to fold. So you're folding the body in the pa you're folding,

you're going down and the positions are first, second, third, fourth, and fifth.

Okay, first you have actually one center that comes off of here and here or you're off to this side or you're off to that side. But if you're working very

that side. But if you're working very rigorously, you're working to develop that single center in first. Second is a much more evolved kind of higher

muscular kind of situation where it's being supported from the torso and the leg muscles more than from the feet. The

third position is never used because third looks like a bad fifth. So, it's

just been eliminated, which is kind of too bad because I I actually do use third. Uh but not if I think it's at a

third. Uh but not if I think it's at a moment where it could be judgmentally determined. Actually, it was an

determined. Actually, it was an uncrossed fifth. Oh dear. Uh but in any

uncrossed fifth. Oh dear. Uh but in any case so third weight is somewhere between openly distributed and cross through a single center between

the two legs. Okay this is the fourth right and the fifth that fourth is closed so that it's just a reduced even

higher center. Okay. In these positions,

higher center. Okay. In these positions, first, second, usually not third, first, second, fourth, and fifth. Pa, first to

bend, to fold. Uh, next tandra to stretch, to reach out from that base.

Not so far as you're going to fall, but far enough so that you have to evolve and occupy a little bit more space each time you do it. And you will go first

from the tandu to a pa to a tandu to a pa and then tandu to a straight leg which by drawing in you're pulling the center even higher and so therefore it

comes later in the series of exercises.

They're designed to evolve right. Uh

after the uh the stretches comes the ranjam. One of the few exercises

ranjam. One of the few exercises actually that's circular. Most of ballet comes from fencing. It's very linear.

It's the attack. It's the retreat. But

it doesn't have a whole lot of that going on unless somebody's gotten very ambition flamboyant with their fencing styles. Could be. I don't know. But in

styles. Could be. I don't know. But in

any case, random is the circling of the leg from a full fourth forward all the way to an open second all the way to a full fourth back all the way back to

your second all the way back to your fourth. Forward and down. full rotation.

fourth. Forward and down. full rotation.

Both sides, by the way, you're always reversing. Even the ones that are in a

reversing. Even the ones that are in a symmetrical position, you still reverse right and left because, as I'm sure you're well aware, right and left occupy

your body all the time and are constantly arguing with one another. We

have an interior conflict going on that makes almost anything else in life impossible. But so, we have right and

impossible. But so, we have right and left, which we're always trying to balance. Okay. After random you can have

balance. Okay. After random you can have pat, which is little throws. Little

throws. So from your fifth or from your first, you're reaching quickly out.

Little darting movements, right? Then

you can have frappe, which is to beat frappe.

Uh, and so from the ankle, it'll be a flex foot that extends boom and boom.

And all of this is about developing rev to lift to rev right uh up to the metatarsal as high as

you can get pulling up through all of this rev. And this develops the strength

this rev. And this develops the strength that you need to jump because from the pa down you're going to drive up and the more power you have down here the more

you can get up. That little extra eighth of an inch counts. Okay. Uh so frappe after frappe is grom botma the big botma

the big throw all the way up and down but not all the way up changing the angle of the hip so that the rotation is

going to alter the line holding the hip straight through up e up e up either through fourth or through second or

through arabesque and back. Those are

the fundamentals. Now, if you're Merse Cunningham, you can operate in all of the interstases through all of that, but you still have the regulation of the

body's map. And that's what the ballet

body's map. And that's what the ballet has already done.

>> Amazing.

>> Not amazing. Just very highly evolved in terms of how to control movement in terms of strengthening and developing the body. Did the people that developed

the body. Did the people that developed this um care about the underlying physiology or they just and I'm not saying they should,

but it seems like an incredible intuition at least that they came up with it.

>> You'll forgive me for saying something stupid like this. The body is very smart. And one of my problems has always

smart. And one of my problems has always been what knows what first.

Okay. Does the body already get it brain? and we're trying to educate you

brain? and we're trying to educate you or is it brain telling body what to do in the case of the classical technique I think it's actually the body that feels

that it could get a little higher if only its rotation were a little more open so it urges that that I don't think brain is going well you

know what if you actually could open that leg out you go higher and you're going brain I don't know about that what does that You don't know what it means.

The body knows what that means.

>> I've heard it said, you know, we think that we're a brain with a body, but perhaps we were a body with that later got a brain.

>> There are certain sophisticated movements, rhythms and so forth. I mean,

for example, great composer is a great mathematician, right? um and the

mathematician, right? um and the indications and um the divisions of time um uh I would accept is coming you know

particularly because of how you see the notation and how the um note can be subdivided it's a very visual thing once you're into the eye you're into the

brain I mean you know it's like do you know what I'm saying this is more about the body and this how the toes are going about its business down here are very

much involved about the body.

>> Yeah. Thinking sometimes is really overrated when >> For sure.

>> Yeah. Yeah. As human oldw world primates, which we are, um, we got a bunch more machinery up front in the prefrontal cortex, which let us think

and plan and reflect and strategize a lot more. Also allowed

lot more. Also allowed humans to do bad things a lot more.

trickery and things like that, but also to plan really incredible wonderful things but I do think it in many ways it was at the expense of some of the machinery

involved in these I I hate use the language lower let's just say more fun fundamental intuition. I year I'm not I

fundamental intuition. I year I'm not I don't want to give a too many anecdotes but years ago I developed an obsession with comparative neurology. There's this

beautiful journal. hundreds of years old called the journal of comparative neurology. I was fortunate enough to

neurology. I was fortunate enough to participate with that journal but you know for a while reviewing these papers which for by for modern science people don't really care about these they're

like what is the cerebellar vermish shape of the you know what of the atlas turtle I don't even know if there's an atlas turtle but I just guess we were talking about teddy atlas of the whatever right of the of the

two toaded three toes whatever all these weird species but no single paper teaches you that much except about this really arcane thing about the malard

duck hypothalamus or something. I'm sure

that paper's in there, by the way. But

when you start comparing the nervous systems of these different animals and the way they move and the way they think, because there are certainly papers about humans in there, you start

getting emergent fundamentals. You go,

"Oh my goodness." You know, the like the once the forebrain got bigger, the cerebellum got a little smaller in this one area. And and evolution starts to

one area. And and evolution starts to make a lot more sense. but evolution at the level of things like we're talking about today, movement and communication.

And it leaves you with this question which is a lot of the reason you're here today is I I I think we all really want to understand even if we don't know that we want to understand like what are we

really here to do? What are we good at?

How do we tap into these other aspects of ourselves?

When you talk about the brain developing in different areas to different degrees, I sometimes wonder about and I mean to be neither naive nor romantic here, the

morality of the body and if the people who run our governments and who design our social systems had a sense on a

daily basis of preserving and protecting and honoring their physical bodies. if

their brain would be allowed to concoct some of the schemata that then tell bodies everywhere what they're going to be doing.

>> Tell me more. I think I'm I I think I understand. I do believe that taking

understand. I do believe that taking care of the body and one's health first is fundamental. Anyone that's lost their

is fundamental. Anyone that's lost their health for any amount of time understands what I'm talking about. But

we don't tend to do that. We we

prioritize the brain a lot without understanding that it exists in this whole context of the body. It's not just health. It's uh it's propriety and

health. It's uh it's propriety and excellence who wants to nurture and encourage the body to realize its full

potential that it was gifted with when it was born.

>> Let's say you and I were in charge of education.

>> Okay.

>> Do you think kids, teenagers, maybe even young adults and older should all do something akin to like gymnastics?

It's an interesting thought which one. I

mean I I respect gymnastics a lot. I get

dancers sometimes who are not ballet trained but who are gymnastically trained. They're courageous in a

trained. They're courageous in a different way. They have a different

different way. They have a different center but they have they have a willingness to throw through space that a dancer does not or you're not trained in the ballet to throw. There are

moments that you dart forward but they're very restricted. Whereas a

gymnast is continuously comfortable with that kind of spatial explosion uh which is a beautiful thing.

>> Should there be a policy that every young person needs to do a form of movement that encompasses a lot of different tempos and some jumping, some rolling, some stretching because we tend

to specialize in sport very early or people decide they're no good at sports.

>> No, no, they're not allowed to do that.

Sorry. something they've got to find that they're good enough at to encourage themselves to respect themselves otherwise they quit.

>> I will interrupt you here just to say that I think this brings us back to your your early development and expectation [clears throat] on people on kids and adults for in other words standards. I

heard somebody say something really interesting recently that was you know it used to be now I'm sounding like an you know I am 50. It used to be that

there were pretty high standards set on all of us.

>> Mhm.

>> Whether or not we got a lot of love and support depended on the household, but the standards were always high. There

seems to be a period of time in which there was a lot more love and support.

Some people will disagree with me, but maybe standards weren't held as in high regard. Of course, it varies by family,

regard. Of course, it varies by family, varies by circumstance, but I think ideally we get back to a point where standards are high for everyone. St like

etiquette, god forbid, you know, um not going to the movies in your pajamas, for instance.

>> Yeah. not just etiquette but also behavior which uh group um social dance whether it's ballroom or

square dance you there are rules and regulations and there ways that you know that you can work that are going to respect the traffic pattern if nothing else and that's going to transfer to how

you drive a car >> uh and this you know gets uh established early and deeply in a young person and you know we're

talking here I don't know second grade third graders I mean as much as I make light of my mother and and I don't make light of her at all but uh sometimes

feel challenged by the education that I received it was not a bad education it was across the boards it was very difficult for me society but I was

grounded in music I was grounded in movement I was grounded in these different forms of community activity, including string quartets. Uh, and I was

grounded in the family owned the Foothill Drive-In Theater between Ryalto and Fontana. Okay. I grew up from time I

and Fontana. Okay. I grew up from time I was eight until I went to college watching a screen and getting myself into the snack bar when there would be a run on hot dogs because it was really

boring up here and I saw boring come get to the snack bar sell hot dogs. Okay.

plus which it was a place where the speakers often didn't work. Uh there

were a lot of cars. 600 cars was big big movie house. Okay. And a big screen. And

movie house. Okay. And a big screen. And

so I learned to watch action and without sound.

And I learned to watch movement and what communicated without language.

>> It's incredible you're saying this. One

of the things that I listen I wanted to talk to you about is this concept of wordlessness.

A a few years ago, I started practicing something because someone said, "You should try this. You should try and walk down the street and just feel what's going on." And try not to get into a

going on." And try not to get into a verbal dialogue about it and just experience life through the lens of like what must be like to be some other

species of animal. And um this might sound silly to people, but it's an incredible portal into how limited our experience of things

normally is. And maybe for some people,

normally is. And maybe for some people, they're always in wordlessness and they need to get more into words. But it

sounds like you had an an incredible upbringing. First of all, you were

upbringing. First of all, you were taught to be hardworking. I mean, I think one can't overemphasize how crit I mean, hard work is awesome and because

it's a super skill for anything you encounter, right? But watching the

encounter, right? But watching the movies without sound, that's incredible.

>> Well, even more, I had twin brothers and a sister who was born 3 days before they were a year old. So, essentially, they were triplets. and my mother gave up and

were triplets. and my mother gave up and started feeding them all with the same spoon and put them in the same room and they developed italia which happens with you probably know this a certain

percentage of twins a language before they learn to speak English they evolve because they're so close to one another

all the time and it's a guttural salabic uh form of communication I could speak it but I could certainly understand it. My parents could not

understand it. My parents could not understand it nor speak it. So, I became the family translator.

>> So, from day one, I'm observing and serving the audience.

>> I love it.

>> And it's nonverbal.

>> This is wild. I'm close friends with a a pair of identical twins and they tell this story from their childhood where one walks in and goes up to the toast of

the other one. They were they're women now. They were little girls then. and

now. They were little girls then. and

takes her fingers and goes like this over the toast. Right?

>> To this day, the other one won't eat that type of toast.

>> But it was like there it wasn't like, "Oh, this is bad." They would just something was communicated in the movement and to this day will not touch that that type of toast, >> right?

>> And it's so funny and they they have tons of stories about this is that that they can communicate without words, >> right? And a lot of it was signed. I

>> right? And a lot of it was signed. I

don't remember a lot of this was bread and butter.

Uh and so very early I got the idea that movement communicates. Who needs all

movement communicates. Who needs all this garble on top and your brain has got it? What is that right or left?

got it? What is that right or left?

That's going to be that side. It's going

to be right. You don't need to translate it into language to understand what the movement is asking for. But unlike so many artists and creatives,

the world is very fortunate that you that you were asked to be a translator because you you don't exist in some I could think of names here, but I don't want to insult anyone. There are some

artists that are genuinely weird to the rest of us because we can't understand them. Now, they're not

understand them. Now, they're not necessarily weird. They're just

necessarily weird. They're just different. But I have to imagine there

different. But I have to imagine there are probably many many incredible creatives whose work we never hear or see because there's no one there to translate it for them and they certainly

can't do it for themselves. You have to have a certain amount of fluency in the world of business, in the world of being able to communicate with words, otherwise

your work doesn't get out there. Maybe

that's why there's so few people that really sit, you know, where they do in their craft.

>> I I think that a word here is objectivity.

That in doing work there are moments where you have to get outside that work and you have to look at it as an outsider.

>> How do you do that? Do you film film it and watch?

>> I do it by pulling myself out of the action. Uh I mean there were times when

action. Uh I mean there were times when I danced right and I danced inside as well as trying to get outside. This is

genuinely a way to become extremely neurotic and it's a very difficult task.

Um it in some ways it's very rewarding because the whole thing evolves from you and plus which you're the jury. Uh but

it's not going to be you can't maintain it for very long. And anybody who makes something wants to have anybody wants to have the capacity to be unemotional

about it, get back, forget how you feel about it. What does it say to you?

about it. What does it say to you?

You in a way become your own translator.

Does this read?

>> You said something really really useful I think about um critics in your book.

Uh, you said that the good ones, the honest ones, uh, the ones that aren't just trying to get some clickbait or get someone to read their story so

they can get their couple thousand bucks so they can make rent that month.

The really good critics keep us honest about who we're supposed to be as creators. Now, that makes it sound like

creators. Now, that makes it sound like people who aren't creating stuff that's being, you know, critiqued out in the world don't have anything to learn from what you're about to say. But I would

argue that from the very beginning when we start to create anything, a short story, a poem, even if we're just daydreaming about what we might create, it's impossible to not get into the well, what are people going to how is

this going to land? What are people going to think? So, learning how to hold critique is critical to the creative process. Even if journalists aren't

process. Even if journalists aren't eventually writing about your work, how do you work with inner critic, which is really about outer critics, let's be

honest. Um, how do you work with that?

honest. Um, how do you work with that?

And how what's your relationship to that?

>> This is very very difficult because you have to love what you're doing. Uh,

anything that's going to be really meaningful, there has to be an extraordinary degree of love. And we do

refer um in uh my office to you know the the child of that work each dance in a way is your gift and it's your child and

somebody's out here and they're going to slit its throat. How are you supposed to feel about that?

>> Also because what we do is very very personal. It's it musicians translate it

personal. It's it musicians translate it into sound. There's a certain distancing

into sound. There's a certain distancing from them personally. We're very

personal with your con. You You speak bad of my dance. You speak bad of my body. That don't go down so well,

body. That don't go down so well, right? So, it's difficult to process the

right? So, it's difficult to process the exterior critic's word. And uh on the other hand, as I said, one still has to even though you love the thing, you got

to I mean, you know, long ago, my trainer actually uh had two huge wolf hounds. And I made the mistake one day

hounds. And I made the mistake one day of criticizing one of them. I mean,

never criticize a guy's dog. Okay,

>> this is true.

>> Yes, you can criticize the child, but not the dog. All right.

>> Wolf elms are beautiful animals. Very

majestic animals.

>> Yes, they had to. Uh but so yeah, there you are. You know, this critic just

you are. You know, this critic just called your dog a bad name.

And okay, maybe your dog has got only three legs and six months to live. I'm

being cruel, but am I? I'm being

realistic. Your dog has three legs and six months to live.

>> Well, that's not criticism. That's an

>> observation. Observation.

>> Uh yeah, but it comes across because it's less than perfect.

So you see it's it's it's a difficult arena. There's no single answer and you

arena. There's no single answer and you got to it's like neon. You got to shift on, shift off, shift on, shift off.

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Every once in a while I find myself thinking, "Oh, you know, in the early 2000s, you know, the way art and music and media was, it was better in the, you

know, growing up in this." But then I realized that people probably been saying that sort of thing forever. And

that for young people now, I have a niece who just went off to college, like the, you know, she's not thinking about how it it was back then. For her, it's happening now.

And I think it's hard for us to adapt to the fact that we were young once and now we're less young. And

that is all new for them. And so the the question is and they don't have that frame of reference. So, when it comes to critics, when it comes to dance and art,

do you see things getting better, worse, or do you just think of it as like, oh, it's just it's always been just an evolution? I I have a hard time going,

evolution? I I have a hard time going, oh, you know, we had great music in the 90s. It was awesome music came out.

90s. It was awesome music came out.

>> You should have been around in the 70s.

>> Exactly. You're making Exactly. That's

the point, right? So, but for people who are 16, 18 now, they're not thinking that way. They're thinking, "We got all

that way. They're thinking, "We got all that music and there's all this other great music."

great music." So, I think the goal perhaps is to just stay open.

>> Yeah. I think it's not judgmental. It's

not good or bad. It's what can I learn from this? What can I take from this?

from this? What can I take from this?

What can I transpose from this to put over here? What can I use? Make

over here? What can I use? Make

everything transactional.

>> Can you elaborate on that?

>> No, I like it like that.

>> Full stop. Okay. [laughter]

>> Yeah. No transactional. What serves me here? What can I use? Uh, sometimes

here? What can I use? Uh, sometimes

transactional gets a bad name. You are

trying to use something. Yeah, I'm

trying to use something.

>> Well, the whole thing of, you know, great artists steal, you know, nothing is a new idea. This kind of thing. Do

you believe that?

>> Absolutely. Uh, to some degree. I mean,

that's why it's one of my privileges, uh, to, uh, work with the life of a composer if I'm serious about that. I

worked on Amadeos, right? So, I read all of Mozart's writings, which are voluminous, um, and looked at every manuscript he had ever touched. Uh, and

I was given access to this. Why wouldn't

you take advantage of that >> for the movie Amadeus?

>> Yeah.

>> Love that movie.

>> Thank you. We did, too.

>> Love that movie. Yeah. the the images of the lime being thrown over the body still, you know, imprinted in my mind.

But it tells you about that era and how what people how little people had.

>> Totally. And how uh much was preserved from the era. We shot in Prague for Vienna. Uh it was hard working there. Uh

Vienna. Uh it was hard working there. Uh

still under the regime. Um, and

that in a way put it closer to what Mozart had to deal with, the sort of restrictions that he had. But the

research that went into that picture was enormous. Um, the the all all of the

enormous. Um, the the all all of the illumination was from candles. All of

the illumination, the candles, they use the same beeswax >> as they had used 200 years before. All

the mechanisms on stage were what were used in the original productions and because we shot in the opera house which had not been updated. In fact, it's one of the ways Milos got back in was to

say, "Okay, we will pay for the reconstruction of the opera house when we're done and they took him up on it."

But I was using the same mechanics under the stage that Mozart had. door that

opened into the orchestra was the door he touched when he came in to join the orchestra. And we had scenes that had

orchestra. And we had scenes that had live fire. We were swinging live fire

live fire. We were swinging live fire around. You don't do this, but we were.

around. You don't do this, but we were.

And out of the floor there were little holes and we figured out that those little holes were a special kind of pollen that they put down and if they lit them they would send up sparks. And

we were doing the sparks from the floor out of the pollen. And you had chandeliers coming down that had hundreds of candles. And in between takes, you're shifting all of the

candles in like 50 chandeliers coming down here before you can do the next take. Meanwhile, you got the clothes

take. Meanwhile, you got the clothes that are in here. And there are no gussets. So, nobody's arm has gone any

gussets. So, nobody's arm has gone any higher than this. You got the men in heels like this. Nobody is running with huge strides, stuff like that. Wow. Now,

am I, you know, I don't know what to do with that kind of information other than to marvel at human invention.

>> We've definitely come a long way. I I'm

>> I don't know that we've come a long way.

Things were different and they maximize their resources.

>> I will say candles are better than uh white light LEDs, but that's a topic for another podcast.

>> Probably. When are we going to do that?

Incandescents are are better but uh than LEDs. But I'm just thinking about all

LEDs. But I'm just thinking about all these candles and I'm wondering whether or not it was very very warm in to work in that environment.

>> Sure. It was very very warm.

>> People were sweating all the time. What

do you think smell was in the 18th century?

Very stenchy is how smell was in the 18th century.

>> I had no idea what went into the making of that film. A spectacular film.

Everyone should see that. It was real.

>> It'll also give you a uh a window into uh how psychiatric illness was treated.

There's that, you know, brutal scene from a I guess they called them insane asylums. Um >> y [snorts] >> and nowadays we probably understand that

95% of those people were probably suffering from things that nice at home care probably would have result.

>> There's a pill for it.

>> Yeah. or or there's a pill for Yeah. or

or or a combination of sunlight and and pills and other things.

>> Speaking of which, um >> what's your view on modern versus ancient medicine versus the body just being really smart?

>> I know not much about either ancient nor modern medicine. I'm not sure I'm

modern medicine. I'm not sure I'm equipped to have a view uh on these

things. Um, I simply myself try to stay

things. Um, I simply myself try to stay as close to what is, forgive the word,

natural as possible. In terms of eating, I uh am currently uh not eating

except for this trip. Okay? No carbs, no sugar. All right? Uh which I find to be

sugar. All right? Uh which I find to be the keto diet I find to be more manageable. I can control it better. Um

manageable. I can control it better. Um

I I know where my weight is. I can feel how close to the bone where I got to heho huh. You can't do that if you're

heho huh. You can't do that if you're eating a lot of pasta.

>> Uh so that's and also I I I fortunately cannot cook. Therefore, I basically eat

cannot cook. Therefore, I basically eat everything raw. I can eat meat raw. I

everything raw. I can eat meat raw. I

certainly eat vegetables raw. I am

exaggerating. I can use the oven. Okay.

I can boil water, but that's about it.

No sauces ever.

>> Nothing decorative. Just, you know, I've often said if there were a pill for food, I'd take it. I'm not sure I would because I'm not sure it would have what I needed in it. I'm not sure I'm getting

that anyway, but at least I'm making an effort. And I know where it comes from.

effort. And I know where it comes from.

I don't like mystery a lot.

>> So, it sounds like meat, fish, fruits, and vegetables are your staples.

>> Say so.

>> Yeah. Likewise. And uh I think it's funny that nowadays saying it makes total sense when we say you know the carbs and sugar are the are really the

the problem in most cases and whereas for years it felt like the public health space around nutrition was utterly confused. It was like fat is the bad

confused. It was like fat is the bad thing then protein and then meat is the bad thing. I mean, deli meats probably

bad thing. I mean, deli meats probably they are not great for us, but >> healthily sourced.

>> We we went through a period probably of about a year or even two where we carb loaded because we thought we'd have more energy, we'd be stronger. We just got heavier. But anyway, maybe we had a

heavier. But anyway, maybe we had a little more power.

>> I have a friend whose daughter is very um [clears throat] interested in ballet. She uh actually is part of a conservatory that goes up that they actually live in San Francisco. I

don't know that she's part I don't think she's part of the San Francisco Ballet, but there's something adjacent to that.

And I said, you know, how is that? You

know, because you hear these stereotypes of, you know, it's brutal on young girls's probably boys as well, but minds about their weight and the training and it's unhealthy. And he said nowadays

it's unhealthy. And he said nowadays they they've adjusted for some of that and they really try and keep a a healthier environment. What's your view

healthier environment. What's your view on that? I mean, standards versus

on that? I mean, standards versus health. I mean, this this is a topic

health. I mean, this this is a topic that we spills over into everything in science. I used to work 100 hour weeks.

science. I used to work 100 hour weeks.

100 one 10 one zero zero. I heard there was a guy that worked 101, so I worked 102. Then I realized that I couldn't

102. Then I realized that I couldn't sustain that. I'm not suggesting anyone

sustain that. I'm not suggesting anyone do that. But everyone has a kind of war

do that. But everyone has a kind of war story from their time, but you know, now there does seem to be more care taken to mental health, physical health. So, how

do you balance that in the world of dance where you want standards to continue to stand or rise, but you also don't want people um mentally destroyed?

>> This is a hard one.

>> Yeah, >> there's always going to be a trade-off to some degree. I mean, the stress of performance is whether it's athletic performance or, you know, dance

performance is extreme. And

unfortunately, it's been my experience that the better the performer, the worse the nerves before, >> huh, >> sorry about that. The more intensely

important that curtain going up is to that person and the possibility of failure is always there and the

degree of rehearsing that's going to address that is why didn't you do more is always the response. Um, so that is I'm sorry. It's a reality. It's a

I'm sorry. It's a reality. It's a

choice. Don't don't choose that profession.

We can't make life totally nice. It is

partially what it is. Choose something

else.

You know, often and I'm not alone in this. One hears it often. You know, a

this. One hears it often. You know, a parent or a child even will come up. Can

I be a dancer? I say don't do it. find

something else if you possibly can.

If you can't be a dancer >> because you want to set that thick thick line.

>> Yeah. I mean it h and there are other folks who will find their own way to address that line and who will massage

that line and it's part of creativity is addressing those old lines of boundaries uh classical modern oi It's interesting when you put that

barrier, you naturally select for the people that really want it.

>> Yes.

>> Yesterday I had a early morning call with a friend of mine who's a former what they call tier one SEAL team operator. So he was in the Navy Seals

operator. So he was in the Navy Seals but with it then there's an another selection process within it for the the uh tier one or the sort of elite of

within that already elite community and he has um children and I said uh are they interested in military? He said,

"One of them is." And I said, "Is he interested in going to the teams?" And

he's like, "He is." I said, "What are you telling him?" And he said, "I'm telling him not to do it." And he keeps coming back that he wants to do it. And

I'm reassured. He keeps telling him, "Don't do it. You're going to hate it.

It's going to be the worst thing ever."

And and he keeps coming back, "No, I want to do it. No, I So, he's convinced now that he actually wants to do it."

>> Well, but uh unfortunately, telling a kid not to do it is a bait. uh and can just engender I want to do it just to prove that

you're going to go up against authority.

That's not the right reason to select.

>> Sure.

>> Better to just say you got to really really want to do this. Even more, can't you find something else? And if they can question it, they don't want to do it

enough. Mhm. He did add that if he feels

enough. Mhm. He did add that if he feels he likes it more than it sucks, his words, then he'll be okay.

>> I would buy that.

>> There's got to be some tilt in the seesaw more towards I like this more than it sucks.

>> Yeah, I'd buy that. [clears throat]

>> That's that's fair.

>> And I see a lot of parallels between the communities that you come from and he comes from. Frankly,

comes from. Frankly, >> it is elite.

>> It has a price to pay. Do you think nowadays because of social media and the internet there's a larger pool of dancers to select from and talent that

gets selected for the to work with you for instance is better because it's just such a bigger pool that you that top 1% reflects an even better 1%.

>> It's different uh the because the talent is being uh trained and uh challenged in a different way as young people. In

other words, there are now competitive um activities for dance. I started to say activity sports for dance. It's not

quite a sport though it converge which is fine. Uh but when I was uh evolving

is fine. Uh but when I was uh evolving as a dancer, we had very strict borders.

This was tap, this was ballet, this was modern, this is jazz over here. And you

could step across the borders and try out different of these. even acquire

knowledge from all of them to become something but you had to do it on your own and then uh you would you know work to gain acceptance into whatever

performing arena. Now children very

performing arena. Now children very young children eight years old even younger six-year-old kids there competitions for children as dancers uh or as performers

um and this engenders a totally different purpose and performance in the kid. I was not I I'm Buster Katon,

kid. I was not I I'm Buster Katon, right? I take it on the chin, stoic,

right? I take it on the chin, stoic, down, out, or I make the move, right?

The kids are out there to sell it, and they're out there to get their points, and it is partially in their technique, but it's also immediately in their manipulation of the audience. Great.

That's called performing. And maybe

you'll be a a good actor, but in the meantime, you're shortch changing your technique because you're not asking the audience to just gauge you on what you can do physically, but how you can sell

it because you want those points and so do your parents. So these competitions in a way are very difficult and for a long time I wouldn't work with

competition trained dancers. Now I find that it's broadened and that the kids are more sophisticated in the ways that

they uh attack technique for performing and they're also hardened in a way. I

can put them in younger. Uh I don't worry they're going to be nervous.

They're not going to be nervous. They

were nervous when they were out here trying to get, you know, graded 30 points on the watada and the witch witch and to get the hits for the watada. And

you know they're no longer nervous about squat. So put them in. This is great.

squat. So put them in. This is great.

But in the meantime, they are doing it for reasons outside of the thing itself for what they can gain from it from

their internet hits from their ha their hina the wada as opposed to just doing it for the thing itself and taking what comes from it. It's different.

>> Yeah. that exttrinsic reward. While it's

important to keep people moving forward if they want to be a professional, it definitely contaminates the the core motivation

>> and what what the kid will accomplish because they won't have to do it the hard way. They'll do it the easy way if

hard way. They'll do it the easy way if it works as well. I was always trained to do it the hard way. You can always do it the easy way. Train for the hard way.

Um, and uh, I can see that in performers. And a performer who has done

performers. And a performer who has done it the hard way has more range. Uh, and

when they work, you're going to be more interested in them because they're making more choices. And an interesting artist is a choice maker. An interesting

performer is always about making choice.

That's what will keep you focused on them. If they're just doing what they

them. If they're just doing what they think is going to win, you're going, "Really?"

"Really?" >> Listen, I love social media. I teach on social media. But the problem with

social media. But the problem with social media as it relates to craft and feedback, etc., is that it puts you on a reinforcement schedule of you did

something yesterday, you can put it out there and you and you can immediately get the response. I think there's a sweet spot between practice, mastery,

and feedback. And when it animals of

and feedback. And when it animals of which we are get we adapt to certain um contingencies you know every 48 hours I

expect something back every 72 hours every they want to I always tell people if they want to do a PhD you got to love the topic you got to embrace the lifestyle but also if nothing else it

will teach you to work very very hard for four years to get something.

Sometimes there are a couple publications in there or more or less, but if nothing else, it will teach you how to work very very hard for something that only comes to you at earliest four years from now, which I think is very

valuable.

>> Even four years is like a promise.

You might want to think about working for no reward.

>> And [clears throat] after four years, you you don't get anything other than the opportunity to continue. I love

that. I love that. My graduate adviser put this into me. We published a paper in science. I was so excited and I said,

in science. I was so excited and I said, "We're going to throw a party. Are we

going to celebrate?" And she just laughed and she was like, "I could buy you a pizza, but I'm not even going to do that." She said something to that

do that." She said something to that extent. I can't remember the exact

extent. I can't remember the exact words, but I remember what came next.

She said, "You already got the party."

>> Yeah. Right.

>> And I was like, "You're right. I love

doing the experiment." And we went on I think we published close to 10 papers together. And when I wasn't thinking

together. And when I wasn't thinking about the PhD, in fact, they forced me to take my qualifying exam. I didn't

want to take I just loved doing experiments. And if you love doing

experiments. And if you love doing experiments, turns out you published a lot of papers. Published a lot of papers. Turns out it's easy to get a a

papers. Turns out it's easy to get a a PhD.

>> Right. Exactly. You're doing something for the right reasons, not to get something else.

>> But it's hard to explain that to someone who's really driven. Not even nowadays.

It's just hard to explain that to somebody because I think people who are really driven also they want people to understand something.

>> They they need to understand excellence on their own terms. Not from outside but from inside. I can do more. I can do

from inside. I can do more. I can do more. That's what I'm interested in. Oh,

more. That's what I'm interested in. Oh,

you like that? Not enough.

I want more.

>> Just letting that really sink in. I

totally agree. I'm just trying to think of the messaging that works for kids.

>> Almost none. [laughter] I have a grandson, believe me.

>> They operate on their own on their own in their own frame.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. It worked on you. Worked on me to some extent.

>> Yes. uh because my mother was a concert pianist and she wasn't able to of the war came and she started teaching to help support the family and in a way I

think I was aware of the sacrifice that she had made but I also heard the level of excellence from the time I was a teeny itsybitsy I went to her lesson

she'd continued and I I heard the practicing and I think even with no training I heard that that was better

than that and they got closer and You develop your own morality.

You don't have somebody telling you what is good and what is bad.

>> It sounds like, if I may, that you develop your own internal standard.

That's very high.

>> It's very high. It's unattainable and you're going to hate yourself a lot of the time.

>> They don't tell you that, but it's true.

>> No, I'm just saying.

>> Yeah, it's true. I don't know if hate hate's a strong word. It is a strong word.

>> Maybe not satisfied, but >> sorry. It's called hate.

>> sorry. It's called hate.

>> I love your honesty.

You've said before, before you can think outside the box, you have to have a box.

But you also talk about having an actual box.

>> Yes.

>> Explain. Well, the actual box holds the tangible items that are very sensory that have the feel or the smell or the

weight of when you first thought that idea. Maybe your dance isn't going to

idea. Maybe your dance isn't going to look like a rock, but when you picked up that rock, there was a certain kind of physical resistant and that suggested a kind of movement. And if you don't keep

that rock, you'll forget sometimes where it came from. I was working um on a film script once and uh I I was told look

write down your initial instinct, your initial idea for what the film is to be.

Put it in a drawer and lock the drawer because there are times when you're going to not know what the you're doing.

Unlock the drawer and remind yourself that rock can remind you of that original instinct, that original movement that evolved from you. Go, oh

yeah, yeah, that's where I am. That's

what I'm doing. But we overthink things and we compound it. And it's not that complicated. You want to keep it as

complicated. You want to keep it as simple as possible. You want to, I think, keep it as close to the initial reason you wanted to do it, the initial sense of excitement. And again, to use

the same old word, love that you had for that moment in time that you wanted to share.

I love the idea of anchoring to physical items around something that's conceptual because the conceptual journey can be whether or not it's a book or a dance or whatever a podcast it can be

>> so opaque at times and you're just you're trying to stay anchored to the center to the spine and but it can be really tough

>> and um having a physical object that you understand means a and that's it. It's

it's it's uh non-negotiable.

>> There are certain things you don't forget.

>> Those are the important things. That's

what truth is. You don't forget it.

>> I guess this is the reason we have plaques and wedding rings and things like that is they they symbolize something in a very simple way that's everyone understands. And in this case,

everyone understands. And in this case, it's important that you understand.

>> Yeah. But it's a symbol of >> that's [clears throat] different.

>> Symbol is different from the actual rock. The rock is the thing itself. It's

rock. The rock is the thing itself. It's

not the symbol of anything. It's the

rock.

>> So it has a property that is what you're trying to thread through your work.

>> Yes. Doesn't stand for something else.

>> It actually has that thing.

>> And that's in a way why ritual because ritual is not quite the same as practice. Ritual is done for a purpose.

practice. Ritual is done for a purpose.

It's done to accomplish an end.

Purpose, you just do it.

>> So let's break those apart. ritual,

purpose, and habit. If we if you were to separate those out.

>> Okay. Ritual to accomplish a goal or a kind of control.

Uh practice a consistent ongoing activity that somehow keeps reoccurring. Habit you do

because you're in the habit of doing. I

mean, habit and practice are actually very close. Um, habit is dangerous

very close. Um, habit is dangerous because you got to do it that way.

That's the habit for it. Practice is

just get the job done. You can do it in different ways, but get the job done.

Hand habit. You got to do it the same way.

>> Throughout the entire listening to your book, I had this question in the back of my mind. Did you take weekends off?

my mind. Did you take weekends off?

>> No. What's a weekend? It's, you know, it's seven-day work week here.

>> Love it. You've gotten things like honorary degrees from Harvard. this kind

of thing. Um, a lot of accolades from a lot of different places. Uh, do those things matter to you?

>> No, they matter more to other folks and sometimes I have trouble with them. Uh,

they don't tell me anything that I have done or more importantly will do. Uh,

can I honestly say it's not nice for somebody to say to you, you've done a great job. I can't say that. I can you

great job. I can't say that. I can you know try to feel that it's I think one thing about that kind of uh action is

that it takes a magnanimous person to recall that they have a goal that's going to be ongoing no matter how many accolades they get. But the people

giving the accolade want to matter. They

want to count. They want to believe that what you have done is important. And in

a way, you owe it to them more than to yourself to accept that.

>> I know you don't like the term, but you came up with it >> and I think it's very interesting and important, which is this notion of scratching when you're searching for the

next idea or the idea like this notion of scratching. Could you tell um people

of scratching. Could you tell um people what scratching is about?

>> Okay. two two conditions where scratching is

kind of an approach. One is you're really lost and you uh have no sense

that there's any progress to be made and if so where's the direction to go and you have to be patient uh with yourself in the situations and just try something

and did it mean anything or not and having the faith to continue that is a kind of scratching. The other is you know perfectly well where you're going.

You just don't know how to get there.

And in u scratching at or or essaying or trying that approach, you still got to remember where your basic thing is, but you know you've got somewhere to go.

That's a nicer place to be than when you are just in an absolute vacuum and scratching for something that has

meaning.

And scratching can take a lot of forms. You've said it could be going to a museum and seeing what captures your eye. It could be just living your daily

eye. It could be just living your daily life and just making sure that you capture anything that kind of pokes through. Is that right?

through. Is that right?

>> Being being open about about things and being willing to be caught off guard, being willing to be surprised.

>> Could you talk about movement and longevity? I mean, you're

longevity? I mean, you're >> How long have we got?

>> As long as you want. I don't want it's my least favorite topic and it's my most important topic at the moment which is why it's my least favorite topic. Bodies

alter every so often. Okay, a body at 10 is going to be different from a body at 20 what it can accomplish. 20 to 40 there's a kind of continuity in there

that is encouraging. Over 40 body is going to start behaving differently. 47

50s is getting a little bit numbed and all of a sudden you're feeling restricted and you get pissed off and

you have got to find a way of respecting the fact that you can no longer do what you did when you were 20 or 25. But you

still you're pretty potent. Uh and

that's a good thing. And I managed to push that. I was dancing still pretty

push that. I was dancing still pretty hard until I was about 65, which is a long reach. Uh, but after 65, I began to

long reach. Uh, but after 65, I began to feel really restricted. No, you can't do just anything even once.

And oh, by the way, what you're doing might not be strengthening the body. You

might be weakening the body. Repeating

that. Oh my god, what do I do here?

Nothing.

And 70 functional 80 sucks.

You're restricted now and your body has lost facility and you can't pretend it's any other way because you see it and everybody else sees it and you need help

and you don't like help.

How do you maintain your independence and still accept graciously help as a reality and not a shame?

How do you accept a declining body as not demoralizing?

Those are tough questions. And um

particularly if you're invested in the body and it's where you learn what's true and what isn't true. It could be true for somebody who can still do it.

It's not true for you because you can't you still don't have that speed. You

don't have that flexibility. You don't

have that option. And so it becomes, I suppose, and I haven't quite accomplished this, but I think about it obviously a lot. We all do. Uh is an

exchange rate. Uh okay, I'm going to

exchange rate. Uh okay, I'm going to have to give up a kind of sort of physical independence, but in exchange

for this, I can have a lot of goodwill.

How can I circulate that goodwill to get this thing done that still feels as though it's a worthy enough accomplishment to offer

but it's a totally different mechanism and its physicality translated differently and uh you know one I always in the studio I was a very good dancer

and I managed to build a career because dancers wanted to work with me because they become better dancers. Uh and now it is not a body that is dancing better

than any other dancer.

It is a body that is not moving and that needs still to be able to correspond to a great dancer with many many options that you have something to offer them

and that you can realize something with them that is of great value.

I dislike the word mentor. I don't think about that much. Uh because I like better the word apprentice that people learn. You don't teach them, they learn.

learn. You don't teach them, they learn.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> And that is a component here. And I

think that that's a kind of I mean that's the the upside is you can still be mutual. You can still share this

be mutual. You can still share this process. And it's the same as it ever

process. And it's the same as it ever was. You bring what you got, they bring

was. You bring what you got, they bring what they got. you put them together and you get more than the independent what is and that can still happen if you let

it happen and if you don't get too pissed off >> although being a little pissed might help in terms of the pushing through.

>> Everybody needs a little piss all the time.

The uh thing I heard you say once which I really uh which really stuck with me was that you think that perhaps one of the reasons why people age at the level

of the brain and the level of curiosity is that they start moving less that it works in that direction and I started observing people of different ages and indeed even just the amount of

justesticulating that people do it starts to decline over time. You're an

exception to this. Um, I know only a few other exceptions to that rule. I think

it is a rule. You look at kids, they're moving all the time and I think it drops off fairly linearly after, as you said, probably about age 40 or so. It really

people start moving less. There's a

species of of ocean animal that when it lands down on a rock, it actually eats its own brain. Oh,

>> except the part that just keeps it alive there to sense when something swims over it and then it can do its thing. In

other words, if we stop moving, our nervous system atrophies. Uh, and that's very clear. And it seems that the

very clear. And it seems that the distal, the fingers and the feet, the the neurons that control those certainly lose their strength before we lose our

trunk strength and and so on. So,

there's this kind of outward to center atrophy. So

atrophy. So move more, move more, move more in every aspect of life seems to be the takeaway.

>> Yeah. It's not just more, it's degree also. I think that with age we recess,

also. I think that with age we recess, we pull backwards, we reach out less even than we can. Partially the sight begins to decline the hearing and the

kind of fear sets in. You still have to be able to maintain a fearlessness in regards to boundaries that you c you don't have to pull up shy. You don't

have to pull up short of a boundary. You

can still address that boundary. It's

just you're not going to be able to reach as far across as you could have in each of these different decades. It's

just uh you know you could do one thing when you were you know two years old, you can do another thing now. Uh, and

it's accepting that everything can give you push back. You have to accept push back. You have to still accept push

back. You have to still accept push back. It's going to feel differently,

back. It's going to feel differently, but you still want it.

>> Maybe that's the thing to seek is that friction point.

>> In describing dancers in dance, you talked a lot about taking up space. It's

interesting now we're talking about people reflexively taking up less and less space as as they get older.

um voice occupies space too. Um so it's kind of interesting to think about movement as a the fundamental way in which we have action at a distance or

impact at a distance. Um and it as we as you said shrivel Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's the thing maybe that's the thing to fight against >> you know the word fight we fight against everything and I do it too. We all do do it. uh uh it's it's we got to look at

it. uh uh it's it's we got to look at it, I say to myself, uh as an opportunity. It's it's not a it's not a

opportunity. It's it's not a it's not a a fight. Uh it's an opportunity to uh to

a fight. Uh it's an opportunity to uh to keep the keep the pressure on. I mean,

we become we become frightened.

>> Yeah. I've seen that in some older folks. They get there's a fear that sets

folks. They get there's a fear that sets in, >> right? And that's not necessary because

>> right? And that's not necessary because we also got compensations uh for no reason. I'm thinking here of Camu

had twins. Uh and uh one of them was for

had twins. Uh and uh one of them was for some reason thinking she was going to go blind. Uh I guess she'd been diagnosed.

blind. Uh I guess she'd been diagnosed.

Um she started practicing being blind.

She started keeping on keeping her eyes closed in P. She's this is a 12-year-old take kicking cane and starting trying to find her way as a blind person. She see

perfectly well. She was providing against the future. You're not going to provide against death. So just get over it and keep, you know, pushing through

like you can see cuz you can. It's like

meet the friction that's there, but at at that edge, not any further >> at at a reasonable point where there is a competition, not where you're pre pre

uh pre-defeated.

>> Speaking of taking up space, it you've mentioned before that the fact that your name is Twilight perhaps shaped you in some ways.

>> Yes. I'm fascinated by this that how names shape our self-perception, how they shape others perceptions of us and how to some extent we might live into those perceptions.

>> Yes. Uh my mother uh as with everything provided me with a moniker that would um serve me. So the name Twi u she saw in a

serve me. So the name Twi u she saw in a newspaper but it was spelled with an I.

the original Twilight, who was a pig calling princess in the next county.

Twilight, I forget her last name. In any

case, my mother changed it to a Y because she thought Twilight with a Y would look better on a marquee. Okay,

she was right. uh that the T had to be selected for the alliteration between Twilight and Tharp TT Marilyn Monroe.

All stars have got alliterative names.

She's not wrong. It makes it easier to remember. It also seems to have a

remember. It also seems to have a reinforcing quality. One name is a T.

reinforcing quality. One name is a T.

Another T must be good. Two T's, right?

Yeah. This is all my mother's subliminal thinking uh to provide me with the course of stardom. Should I select that's what I should go towards?

>> God bless her.

>> Yeah, that's what I said.

>> Well, Twilight Tharp, >> thank you so much for coming here today.

It was a It is a real honor for me.

>> Yeah. No, it's it's fun.

>> A real pleasure. A real honor. And um I know you you are uncomfortable with accolades. So I'm just going to I'm

accolades. So I'm just going to I'm going to barrel into them by just saying that it's an honor because I think your work is incredible. I I think the book is incredible. So many people that I

is incredible. So many people that I told I was going to sit down with you uh today. Um I'm surprised they're not, you

today. Um I'm surprised they're not, you know, beating down the doors outside.

And that's because I think you represent a lot more than just incredible elite level dance and choreography. You

certainly represent that and the arts and thank you for your comments about supporting the arts that those will propagate far and wide and hopefully have an impact. But you also represent

this spirit behind creating things leaning into friction but also embracing the for lack of a better word the the dance of it all uh including what comes from the outside and the internal

process. This is a complicated thing and

process. This is a complicated thing and I know many many people want it or um just love to see people striving and creating and so you really embody that

spirit and uh I you know the words aren't enough to to express how grateful I am and how grateful millions and millions of people are. So thank you.

>> So God bless your mother for naming you Twilight and God bless you for coming here today.

>> Thank you sweetheart. and God bless you for doing this and for believing it's worthwhile. So, thank you.

worthwhile. So, thank you.

>> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Twilight Tharp. To learn

more about her work and to find a link to her truly spectacular book, The Creative Habit, please see the show note captions. If you're learning from and or

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And last, but certainly not least, [music] thank you for your interest in science.

>> [music]