My Conversation With James Dyson, Founder of Dyson | David Senra

You have a weird uh combination of like you build some of the greatest modern technology, but you're you have this obsession with and love of like the past which I think is very interesting.

>> Yeah. A healthy obsession with the past.

I think it's is I mean I did Latin Greek and ancient history at school. Yeah. And

apparently of no use at all. It is it is interesting how Greek civilization took place and how Roman civilization started how it failed and how people governed where oligarch is good where

dictatorship's good so or democracies you know all that it's interesting and history repeats itself and it's repeating itself rather too quickly at the moment so it's uh history is

interesting we were talking before we started recording I have this obsession with reading everything that you have written I've read your uh first autobiography five times, your second one at least two times, but then you

know people might know about this, but they don't know that you actually wrote a history of great inventions. And what

I noticed about this is it was published I think you writing this in like 2001.

What caused you like why did you do this? You were building your company at

this? You were building your company at the exact same time.

>> Yes. uh because I'm really interested in inventions, how how they happened, who did them, what personalities were behind them and they are inspiring stories and

luckily an editor of a big newspaper in Britain um asked me to do it. So I

agreed to do it and actually we published it as a series of color supplements to a weekend newspaper and then put it into a book.

>> How old were you when you started this when when you had this obsession with history?

>> Oh, from school. Absolutely. from

school. Um, but particularly Greek and Roman history. I mean, British history

Roman history. I mean, British history is really interesting and I know all the kings and queens. I know their dates.

Uh, I'm not I'm not a very clever person actually. I'm not good at remembering

actually. I'm not good at remembering things, but I have remembered all that history and it it jolly world does repeat itself. So, you can learn really

repeat itself. So, you can learn really interesting things from history.

>> And this is what I've noticed. People

that are, you know, the best in the world at what they do or near the best in the world of what they do, they all have this love of learning from history.

Charlie Mer has one of my greatest favorite quotes about this. He says that uh learning from history is a form of leverage and you can actually you know use ideas of people long dead and you'll find out that they were very similar to

you that they had the same they went through the same struggles the same they had the same fears they had the same insecurities they had same triumphs and you can just pick up a book of somebody's life story like the ones that

I have in front of me I told you before we started recording I was going through you know very I had this obsession and love with my work just like you do and in my case was was not invention. It was

creating podcasting podcasts and this book I found it you know I think it was April 2018 the very first time I read it and I'd already been struggling to start

my podcast for two years with very almost no uh success at all. basically

none, no success. And it took me five and a half years of struggle. And the

reason this is so important to find it year two into that five and a half years before I had any uh you know even remote level of success is because I'm like well James struggle. This book is 90% of

it's you struggling for 14 years building 5,127 prototypes and refusing to give up. You're also funny as hell in the book where you're like anytime if you think I'm, you know, have a little

bit of ego, just re realize that I'm only I'm only celebrating that I have the stubbornness of a mule.

>> This is the note. So, obviously I mark up the books like crazy and I was showing you this before we started recording and this is really I got to the very last page and when I was recording my thoughts for the benefit of

other people by making the podcast, this is what you inspired me to do. like I

hope Dyson's story inspires you to say when you get knocked down, all right then let's give it another go.

>> Yeah, bouncing back is really important.

And uh if you are um exploring new territory, if you're experimenting, you're trying to do something different, which is what you know you and I want to do, uh you're going to fail many times

and you've got to bounce back from it.

And actually, if you learn that failure is so much more interesting than success because failure, you question it. Well,

why did it go wrong? And actually, the reason it goes wrong is often very very interesting. Where something works, you

interesting. Where something works, you say, great, that works. And you don't even stop to wonder why it worked. So,

if you you've got to enjoy failure as that's a sounds a difficult thing to do, but you have to enjoy failure if you want to improve things. If you want to not change the world, but change things

and improve things goes hand in hand.

And it always saddens me that school doesn't really teach that. At school or university, the thing is to be brilliant and to get the answer right first time.

And there are brilliant people who can do that. But for the rest of us, we're

do that. But for the rest of us, we're not brilliant. And to get there, we have

not brilliant. And to get there, we have to strive and we have to go through failure. And we realize that, you know,

failure. And we realize that, you know, you don't get it right first time, you don't get it right second time. In my

case, and I counted it, it's 5,127 times. One of the things I always want

times. One of the things I always want to say is that that sounds like a struggle. Okay, it was a struggle, but

struggle. Okay, it was a struggle, but actually it was a hugely enjoyable struggle. The debt was mounting and I

struggle. The debt was mounting and I had three children and a wife and a home and a mortgage to pay like everybody else. But um I had a real point in life.

else. But um I had a real point in life.

I had a real aim and I had to get there.

And the failures were interesting because I learned from every single one of them. Almost every single one of

of them. Almost every single one of them.

>> Say more about that. You had an aim in life. A mission. How did you think of it

life. A mission. How did you think of it then while you're going through it?

>> Well, when I discovered that I loved engineering because I I did classics at school like I couldn't be further away from engineering and then I went to study design and then discovered engineering. So engineering was new to

engineering. So engineering was new to me. It was like something new and I had

me. It was like something new and I had this sort of stupid thought when I was at college that I wanted to design products, I wanted to engineer them, I wanted to develop their technology and I

wanted to manufacture them and I wanted to sell them. So it's a sort of megalomania thought. Why why is a

megalomania thought. Why why is a megalomania thought >> because I was just a penniles student in London you know how how could I have this thought of being you know a global

manufacturer and I don't know how or why I had that thought but there were interesting things happening at that time because Concord was happening um

brought out his Mini car uh you know which is still going today by the way hugely successful today so there were in it was and it was about 15 years after the second world war. So there was

deprivation during the war and immediately afterwards. But suddenly um

immediately afterwards. But suddenly um particularly in the mid60s and I think particularly in London where I was there was a feeling that ah we're free of the past we can do something new and

different and foster Richard Rogers and Buckminister Fuller all these people were having really expansive and revolutionary thoughts about design engineering buildings and so on. So I

was very lucky to be part of that era and I think it, you know, I caught the bug out of this very cheeky idea that that's what I wanted to be. So this is

when you meet Jeremy Fry. I'm I actually was not expecting to start our conversation the way we just did, but I'm glad it it leads perfectly to how I really wanted to start, which is like I want if you can explain who Jeremy Fry

was and the impact that he had on your life. M well I I was at the Royal

life. M well I I was at the Royal College of Art doing design and I was taught by a very famous structural engineer who worked with Foster and

Rogers and I became interested in engineering and I designed a uh a butt type structure for an imposs

and I went to um this engineering company this millionaire who had founded an engineering company and asked him if he'd give money to the and he said, "No, I'll give you a job. I

can see you're an interesting design.

I'll give you a job." So, he started giving me jobs. And one of them was to design this high-speed landing craft, which was his invention that I engineered it and designed it. And he

then said, and I was a long-haired student with, you know, long hair, flared trousers, tight shirts, flowered shirts, all that sort of thing. He said,

he said, "Come and start the company making it and selling it." So, I sort of looked at him a bit. So, I don't know how to sell things. and he said, "Look, you're the engineer. You've chosen every

square inch of that product or everything. You know it all. You're the

everything. You know it all. You're the

best person to sell it." So, that was a that was an interesting sort of revelation for me cuz I'd always thought there were professions. And, you know, there was sales as one profession, engineering was another, and

manufacturing was another, and being a manager was another. And suddenly was this entrepreneur himself saying to me, "Well, look, you you're an engineer and designer, you know about the product. go

and make it and go and sell it. So it

broke down all the barriers for me. We

became great friends and we had lots of discussions about uh engineering and and shared this passion for engineering and for making things. And you found somebody that also had an obsession with

the past past engineers, past designers, past inventors that you could actually have a deep conversations with about how they built their products, why they made the certain decisions and then you use those to inform the work that you guys were doing. Correct.

were doing. Correct.

>> Yes. I mean he he was a friend of Isanis. So uh I I'd never met Isanis but

Isanis. So uh I I'd never met Isanis but I heard about him from him. They used to do hill racing together. Design cars

that very very light cars that raced up hills very quickly with very little power. So sort of very skinny

power. So sort of very skinny engineering, minimalist engineering. Uh

and so he had quite a lot of stories from from that era. He was 20 years older than me. So uh he had seen a bit of life during the war and uh

>> um and had done this racing car thing and established an engineering company.

So he he just removed the barriers and that it was okay to be an obsessive engineer and you you just do whatever it is you want to do and then you go out

and sell it and hopefully like the pi pepper of Hamlin people will follow you.

Uh so you know to get that advice from someone at that crucial stage in my life was was um I say mind-blowing it was it enabled me to carry on and and do things

that everybody said I couldn't do.

>> And then what do you think cuz you worked on the sea truck for 5 years before you left.

>> Yeah about seven cuz I I I did two years of it when I was at college. which I

moonlighted and and designed it while I was and made one while I was at college and then I left college and ran the business making and selling it.

>> What were some of the most important lessons from the seven years when you were doing the sea truck?

>> Oh, I think I learned everything from that. I learned how to manufacture, how

that. I learned how to manufacture, how to approach manufacturers and get them to make components, how to set up a factory, building the product, how to sell it overseas, uh how to find agents

and distributors, all that sort of thing. and learn failures and successes

thing. and learn failures and successes with that to learn that it's all about people, not appearances or how big their company was. It's finding the right sort

company was. It's finding the right sort of person with the right sort of enthusiasm.

>> Say say more about that.

>> Probably if you're running a public company and you're choosing a distributor, let's say for Canada. Um it

would be probably irresponsible to find an individual who is just starting up rather than choosing an established distributor. But of course, the person

distributor. But of course, the person who's just starting out, okay, he hasn't got a name yet, but he's probably incredibly enthusiastic and will put everything behind it and work all hours

to make it work. So, it's the person, not the business really, that you're backing. My friend Josh Kushner has this

backing. My friend Josh Kushner has this great quote when you have to decide when you're partnering with somebody, you know, you decide the most experienced, the most educated, or who wants it the most. You always choose the person that

most. You always choose the person that wants it the most.

>> Experience is an interesting thing. And

Jeremy Fry taught me this. He hated

experienced people. He also hated people with beards and some something else. But

anyway, but this was a different era.

This was a different era. Oh, smoking

pipes. That's right. Because people used to smoke pipes back in the 60s and beards were beards were different in the 60s. Uh but um anyway, come back to the

60s. Uh but um anyway, come back to the experience which is the important thing.

Uh the and I've discovered this. If if

you're experienced, you know how why not to do something or how not to do something. Whereas if you're naive and

something. Whereas if you're naive and you're a young engineer, you've just qualified or you're still training, you you don't have that negativity towards

certain things. And often it's um

certain things. And often it's um something that hasn't worked previously that could work and is interesting to follow. So you're you're very open and I

follow. So you're you're very open and I love naivity.

people asking silly questions, stupid questions, because it creates a different way of doing things, and we've got to find different ways of doing things all the time. My friend Daniel, the founder of Spotify, uh we had a

conversation about this where he actually thinks naive is like one of the greatest assets a young entrepreneur or an inventor can have because he's like, "If I knew how difficult it would be to make Spotify succeed at the beginning, I

would not have done that."

>> Yeah. Yes. Naivity equals stupidity. I I

don't think that I think that naivity is interesting because you're thinking really hard. How the hell do I do this?

really hard. How the hell do I do this?

I don't know how to solve this problem.

The experienced person might think they know how to solve it, but the naive person doesn't. So, they're thinking

person doesn't. So, they're thinking much harder and more intelligently.

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So Jeremy was in the the business of hiring people like a young James. Like

there's smart, enthusiastic person that clearly wants to do this as opposed to anybody that was came from like another company or like even a competitor.

>> Exactly that.

>> You're doing this now. You still do this. 40 years later, 50 years later.

this. 40 years later, 50 years later.

>> Yes. And we've taken it one stage further because we've started our own university. So, we're taking 17 and 18

university. So, we're taking 17 and 18 year olds and starting even younger. And

they work in the business and they ask naive questions. You cover the

naive questions. You cover the university in the book. Again, one of the things I I I've personally learned from you, it's like differentiation for the sake of it.

>> And so, anything that I'm going to do, I look around. One of my heroes is Edwin

look around. One of my heroes is Edwin Lan, the founder of Polaroid. And he had this great line. And he's like, "My personal motto is don't do anything somebody else can do." Can you explain exactly your entire like how you

structured and how you no how you designed the Dyson University?

>> Universe is very expensive at the end, >> especially in the United States, >> right?

>> And it's getting as bad in England.

Yeah. And it's terrible. And you're

saddled with that debt um for a long time. I mean, sometimes 20 years. And in

time. I mean, sometimes 20 years. And in

any case, um a lot of the debt is not repaid. And we need to find a different

repaid. And we need to find a different way to teach people. And it's ridiculous because they're only taught for half the year. The rest of it is holidays. So

year. The rest of it is holidays. So

you've got these big institutions, expensive institutions with people only there part-time. Uh it's madness. And

there part-time. Uh it's madness. And

also uh as I learned when I was at college, working with an engineering company cuz you were working with Jeremy while you were still in school.

>> While yes, I was sort of moonlighting.

The college knew what I was doing and approved of it but um it wasn't what normal students did. So that but I loved that experience working with people who

are having to do things not academics people were having to do things and having to do them in hurry and uh I really enjoyed that and I thought well why can't I give that opportunity to other people

uh so we started our own university um and it it's difficult thing to do because it the government has to approve it and for seven years we had to work with another university and none of them would work with us because they didn't

like the they saw us as big competitors because we pay our students.

>> Yeah, that's you're you start with why are we saddling these young people with an albatross of debt around their necks that's going to limit their you know what they can actually pursue. They're

going to be taking jobs that they're forced to take that they don't want to take maybe for money as opposed to you following your just I don't even call it a passion. I think it's more like an

a passion. I think it's more like an obsession that you have. So am I correct? There's no tuition.

correct? There's no tuition.

>> Yes, there's tuition. We teach them two days a week.

>> Okay. and they work with us three days.

So, but you pay them for the three days.

>> We pay We pay them. They pay them $45,000 a year. They have cars. They go

on skiing holidays. Those are normal people. They're not students that

people. They're not students that they're in a student group. We have

about 170 of them altogether. But

they're interspersed throughout the company and they love that. They love

working with people who are earning money and having to do having to make things work, having to do engineering, having to do marketing or selling whatever it is manufacturing. They like

the reality of that and it inspires them to learn the academic side because a lot of them said, you know, the academic side of engineering is difficult. It's

hard, but I'm inspired to do it because I've got to practice it every day. As

opposed to separating the two >> as opposed to going to university and just having academia for 4 years with us. They're they're being inventors.

us. They're they're being inventors.

They're developing technology and they're learning exactly why they need to know the academic side, the theory.

explain why it's better to have a per in your opinion a person with no experience than somebody that came from an existing company.

>> The older you get, the more you try to apply your experience. And if you've come from an existing company, you may have picked up bad habits. I'm not

saying we don't have bad habits at Dyson, but I'm saying you picked up the habits of that company, which may not be the right sort of attitude that we want.

this attitude of constant change, constantly trying new things, trying to be different for different sake because it sets us on a different path. And and

some people find that difficult. Some

people want to have a much more conventional way to do things.

>> And so if you you're hiring, you have 18y olds working in Dyson, they're also going to >> 17 year olds as well.

>> Okay. 17 18 year olds. What is that like >> to to be honest? Nobody really notices any difference. Okay, that's going to be

any difference. Okay, that's going to be shocking for for at least for people like they assume okay that they have to graduate high school in America, they have to go to college maybe in many cases they have they go to graduate

school and then they're almost 30 by the time they start working and you're like no hire the 18-year-old. You got to say more about this.

>> Yeah, it well because um you know they're enthusiastic. They've come to us

they're enthusiastic. They've come to us because they want to do real work and they do real work. And just because they're not as experienced as graduates or someone in year four as opposed to

year one doesn't mean to say they don't have just the same to offer or even something better to offer because they're even more naive. So it's uh it it worked really really well and it's

interesting. I want to go back to the

interesting. I want to go back to the seven years with the sea truck.

You you write about Jeremy Fry in both books and in many cases, you know, 50 years in this book, 50 years after you you spent time with him and work with him. You said there's a lot of ideas

him. You said there's a lot of ideas that you learned working with him that you still apply to this day at Dyson, which I think is very fascinating. It

speaks to the power of ideas.

>> I don't have the prejudice against beers, by the way.

>> Oh, thank you. I I think I probably retained the pipe one, but not the beard.

>> I don't smoke. That's fine. And I don't have like the, you know, the hippie beard, so it's this is fine. It' break

my heart to know Jeremy Fry wouldn't wouldn't because you he's become almost my >> He would have changed over the years.

for sure. But one thing that's fascinating is okay, this also speaks to I wanted I'm curious about your opinion on risk tolerance. Obviously, you have excessively high risk tolerance in both

stories, >> but you're like I have I'm working for you know your mentor who you think I think is a genius.

>> Uh he treats you really really well. He

gave you complete autonomy and control.

He's like just go run this business.

There's a great line in the book where you're like uh he introduced you to completely different modus operande uh of the way to operate where you're like we need somebody to know about

aerodynamics. He's like well the Range

aerodynamics. He's like well the Range Rover's down there like the lake's right there like tie a piece of a a piece of wood behind a boat and record what happens and then change it.

>> And but you had I think a wife and at least one child when you left to do the ball barrel.

>> Uh two.

>> Two. Okay. So two kids. You have, I think, a mortgage.

>> So, you have a family to take care of.

You have a great highpaying job, >> right? Uh you have you're working

>> right? Uh you have you're working handinhand with somebody you greatly admire that has taught you a ton in seven years. And yet, you're like, I

seven years. And yet, you're like, I need to go out and be an entrepreneur and do my own thing.

>> Okay. So, I want to talk about that. But

then the second thing that I didn't understand, no matter how many times I read this, why didn't you let him >> fund that? That was a really stupid decision

>> because um and in fact he and ultimately when I started the vacuum cleaner business we did fund it together.

>> Yes.

>> Uh so that >> which we'll get to.

>> Yeah. That was a really stupid decision because he was someone who understood about starting businesses how difficult it was. In fact I went to borrow money

it was. In fact I went to borrow money off my brother-in-law and another party uh who didn't understand the diffusers of starting businesses and the growth

pains and so on. Before we get there, just the decision to leave a great, it's almost like you seek >> tell me if I'm wrong with this. I know

you seek difference for the sake of it in that time period. You may not be like this now. In that time period, it felt

this now. In that time period, it felt like you were seeking risk for the sake of risk.

>> Yeah. No, I I've thought a bit about that and I I think it's partly because um my father died when I was 8 nine and I think I think that had a sort of profound effect on me that I didn't

realize at the time. um because I felt very different to other people because I was a I was a boarding a school and the headmaster was very kind and he um allowed me to stay on for 10 years

without paying any fees. So that was an extraordinary act of kindness. Um but uh I everybody else had parents, two parents there weren't single parent

families in those days and even if the the two had split up, they appeared to come together to come and see their child at school. But I had just my mother coming to see me, my impoverished mother coming to see me. So I felt

different. And also I think if if you've

different. And also I think if if you've lost a parent at that age, uh life can't get much worse. So you're

prepared to take risks because you've started from a a horrible starting point. Risk has become a sort of thing I

point. Risk has become a sort of thing I I need to live with. I need to live on the knife edge all the time.

>> You still feel that way today?

>> I still feel that today. Yes. And um

it's not it doesn't make me unhappy, don't get me wrong, but but I I like living uh for the moment in danger because you're on to something new.

You're doing something different and it's risky. It's not the the result is

it's risky. It's not the the result is not sure at all. In fact, it's very unsure, very dangerous. Uh and I don't mind that. It doesn't keep me awake at

mind that. It doesn't keep me awake at night. So, it starts when your father

night. So, it starts when your father dies and he died really young. 40. He

was 40 years old. 40

>> when you were nine. It's one of the most I I don't want to start talking about start tearing up cuz like that just that part just destroys me. And you

>> I guess I'll talk about this now. I want

to go back to the risk and and making that jump. One of the I think one of the

that jump. One of the I think one of the most profound impacts that your second book has is you're writing this 60 years after your father dies >> and you're talking about your grandson

Mick and you realize now as a 69y old man with a lifelong set of experiences just

how vulnerable you were cuz he's still taking his your grandson Mick is still taking his stuffed animal to bed >> and now you're left alone with a a

nine-year-old boy needs his father.

>> Yeah. No, he he had a a profound influence on me. Um he had to do everything. I mean, he um he loved

everything. I mean, he um he loved producing plays. Uh he loved directing

producing plays. Uh he loved directing them. I've got notes in his sort of

them. I've got notes in his sort of little Shakespeare books, crossing out lines and making notes about things. And

he did puppet shows. He played the recorder. He did he taught rugger. He

recorder. He did he taught rugger. He

taught hockey. uh he just wanted to do everything and I'm a bit like that and I was certainly like that at school um especially if it didn't involve academia

but it was uh and and he was like that.

I just thought of a connection maybe I don't I didn't make previously he wanted to change professions towards the end of his life

he he fought in the war in Burma. We

call it the forgotten war.

>> Yeah. And it really was, you know, it was a nasty, nasty war, a long way away.

Um, and he came back from that in 1946.

And in 1949, he contracted cancer. Okay.

So, he'd been away from his wife for six years, you know, first six years of their life together. Then he had three years being a classics master at school

and then he got cancer and so he was in and out of hospital for he had seven years. Did he have an opportunity to

years. Did he have an opportunity to work for the BBC or something like that?

>> That's what he wanted to do.

>> That's what he wanted to do but never had the opportunity.

>> Had the opportunity.

>> And now I'm thinking I just asked you the question was like how the hell do you leave this fantastic position to go off on your own? He realized well I had the opportunity to where like your dad

unfortunately for for situation outside of his control never got that opportunity.

>> No, he had his life stolen from him but at the age of 40 I mean uh you know I'm almost 80 so twice as long as he did.

Your mom passed away early too.

>> Yes, she she got cancer as well in the 50s.

>> 55.

>> Yeah. At 55.

>> My mom passed away from cancer early, too.

>> Yeah.

>> I a horrible disease.

>> Did you ever This is nothing related to what I think I was going to talk to you about, but your dad passed away at 40.

Your mom in his her mid-50s. You've

lived much longer than both of them.

When you were younger, were you worried that you were going to die young, too?

>> No, it never occurred to me.

Interesting. No, never occurred to me.

Uh, I think it made it made me uh want to get the most out of life fast, maybe impatient to to live my life.

>> Funny, I I obviously have a a habit and obsession with reading biographies. Most

of the people I read biographies of are not like you. They're actually dead. And

I think this unexpected >> I'll try and keep going.

>> No, no, no.

>> We're gonna do we're gonna I'm I want to come to Dyson HQ and I want to record more things. cuz I wanted to like see

more things. cuz I wanted to like see the headquarters and everything else. So

yeah, you have a reason to live >> in addition to your beautiful family and everything else. Um, one of the

everything else. Um, one of the byproducts of reading a bunch of biographies of dead people is you get to the end and it's not that you got to the end of the book, you got to the end of somebody's life story and it's not

morbid, but you have this constant reminder that our time here is limited and don't waste a single day. I think

about that. I I have intolerant to wasting even 24 hours. I think it's actually like a powerful motivator and just a great byproduct of the profession I've chose. I want to go back to you

I've chose. I want to go back to you you're going taking risk for the sake for the sake of risk. You want to be your own man. I think is the line that you have in the book when you leave.

>> Uh so I understand that we're going to get to the ballarrow >> but can you say more?

>> So that that was the point you did ask me that question and why I didn't ask Jeremy fire to help fund the thing. It's

because I wanted to do something on my own >> and you felt >> I'd worked for somebody. and I wanted to do something entirely on my own.

>> But you'd still be the entrepreneur.

>> But it was a terrible decision. But

that's that's how I felt at the time.

>> Why not take money from him?

>> Cuz I felt I I' I'd worked with him.

He'd been my mentor. Okay. And I wanted to >> just go off and do it on my own. It was

to prove something to myself. I suppose

it was a stupid decision because I was still being um having other people help fund me. So it was a really stupid

fund me. So it was a really stupid decision. And you do make stupid

decision. And you do make stupid decisions in life. And I learned from my mistake. And so when I started the

mistake. And so when I started the vaccin, I went back to someone who, you know, understood entrepreneurship, who had been an entrepreneur rather than people who hadn't been entrepreneurs. We

we were talking about this earlier. You

and I were talking about this earlier where uh there is now a new class of capital available to entrepreneurs that is not institutional venture capital that's obviously still exists but you

have a lot of people that have had incredible success like yourself but I've become friends with Michael Dell and this is something that he's interested in and providing alternative funding solutions to entrepreneurs from

an entrepreneur and knows exactly >> what they're going through that is not a professional investor that is not doesn't even has not trying to make more of insurance. They have more money than

of insurance. They have more money than they'll ever spend. They literally love entrepreneurs and want to help entrepreneurs. I think it's really

entrepreneurs. I think it's really important. I want to go through the list

important. I want to go through the list of mistakes and because you always say this and I love it. Uh I have the the um the first version of your second biography which is inventional life. I

think it's changed now. I think you were going to name it like failure is more interesting than success or more fun than success.

>> Lousy marketeteer I am. Yeah. Yeah. The

publishers quite rightly said it won't sell. So, let's focus on the failures

sell. So, let's focus on the failures and the mistakes that you made with the ball barrel. What still like sticks out

ball barrel. What still like sticks out in your mind about that?

>> Right at the beginning, um, having people fund it, uh, help fund it cuz I had to put up a guarantee. Uh, my

brother-in-law put up a guarantee.

>> The guarantee is against your house.

>> Uh, the guarantee was against my house.

Okay.

>> Um, fortunately, I had a house by then.

Uh, my brother-in-law put up a guarantee and we borrowed money from the bank. Uh,

by the way, interest rates went to 22%.

>> While we were doing that business, and that was the killer.

>> Um, so, uh, I I borrowed money again when I started the ball bear, the vacuum cleaner business. Um, so it's not

cleaner business. Um, so it's not borrowing money that's a problem. It's

involving people who don't understand uh, startups and the pain you have to go through.

>> What did they not understand?

>> They just didn't understand the business, the what it what it's like.

Um, for example, uh, the ball bear was copied in America by an ex employee and another company and they wanted to go after him and teach him a lesson. And I

said, "No, no, no. Let let him do it. If

he wants to do it, let him do it and we'll come into America um, and we'll sell ours against his. He'll pave the way and we'll come and sell our original version." But they wanted vengeance. So,

version." But they wanted vengeance. So,

we spent a lot of money trying to sue them, you know, to no good effect really.

So that's one example. The real thing I learned is that um it's much better to put your own money in. I didn't have any money. I borrowed it, but I was it was

money. I borrowed it, but I was it was money that had been given to me by a bank. So it was my money even though I

bank. So it was my money even though I was on the line for it and my wife had to sign the house away and all our possessions and all that sort of thing.

Um so I was making my decisions for me.

I wasn't having to worry about investors and what they might think which which when I was doing the ball bear business I was always doing that you know I was having to ring them up and say do you think we should do this is it okay if I

do this you seem to have an inher I don't want to interrupt you an inherent distaste for anybody else having any kind of

control over what you're doing >> not that at all what I meant I'm glad you raised that that's not what I meant for example I have non-executive director I run the business as though it

was a public business, but it's a private business. And I think it's very

private business. And I think it's very important to have good people advising you. Now, what I meant was when I when I

you. Now, what I meant was when I when I when I'm entirely on my own and I make a decision, I make a decision without reference, certainly in the early days, to anybody else, is it the right

decision for the business? You know,

will it make a better product? Will it

sell more? All that sort of thing.

That's very, very single-minded. You

don't have to worry about investors at all. had to worry about the bank balance

all. had to worry about the bank balance but I didn't have to worry about investors which made me very single-minded and you know my if if there's a failure it's my failure it's all down to me whereas if you've got

other people then you know other people are making joint decisions so I really enjoyed not having anyone to turn to whereas with the ball bearer business there are other directors there other

investors so I had to worry about what they thought perhaps I shouldn't have but I did but But if you're on your own, you make the decision from entirely the right reason.

>> What do you think that you thought was important that they did not for that specific product?

>> When we started selling the ball bearer, the retailers the first of all, there weren't big um hardware chains. They

were individual owned hardware stores.

>> So there was no Home Depot or Home Depot, none of that, which makes life a lot easier. You might not think that,

lot easier. You might not think that, but it does make life a lot easier if you're manufacturing something. So, we

had to sell through wholesalers who sold to all the individual retailers and garden centers where you go and buy garden stuff. They were all individually

garden stuff. They were all individually owned. So, you had to have teams of

owned. So, you had to have teams of salespeople going around all these things trying to sell products to them.

Oh, we can take one this week and see the other one or it was a completely mad system. Um now I'd started the business

system. Um now I'd started the business selling direct to people through little adverts in the newspaper tiny little adverts and people would send their checks in those days. People used to

send checks it was pre credit cards. You

have a great line about this in the book. You said the entrenched

book. You said the entrenched professional will always resist longer than the independent consumer.

>> Yes. Exactly. So um exactly that and that that was the point. The

illustration of that is when when I went around trying to sell to garden centers and hardware stores, they were not interested. They actually laughed. They

interested. They actually laughed. They

said that thing with a big red ball, no one will never buy that. Um, but they did buy it from these little ads. So, I

wanted to go on expanding the idea of selling direct and not having a middle person and not having to have salespeople. But they said, "Oh, no,

salespeople. But they said, "Oh, no, look, you're being successful. I think

now is the time to do it properly and get a factory and um and and sell the normal way through retailers.

>> Did you push back against that decision?

>> A bit. Yes. Now, I said, "Look, we're doing quite well now. We're not having to borrow money. We're not we're not dependent on anybody. We're just placing these ads and seeing what happens." And

okay, the business might be very small, but it's it's okay actually. It's wiping

its face. But then we got into debt and the debt got bigger and the debt went to 22% interest rate. I mean, a company's

lucky if it if it can make um you know 5% profit or 10% net profit, but we're fighting at 22% penalty all the time.

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So there's another thing that happened where you made the mistake of assigning.

This was your invention. This is your the ball bear was your creation. You

made some other products, but we can skip over that for now. And then you filed a patent. It was patentable. And

you transferred the patent not to yourself, but to the company. And then

when they kicked you out of the company, they then took your company and your patent.

>> Yes. Yes. They took everything. But

actually, there's a silver lining to all of that, which I had offered them the vacuum cleaner.

>> Yes.

>> And they didn't believe in it. This is

why I'm obsessed with people uh so far for every single person I've talked to through the show. They've done what they do for excessively long period of time, anywhere from 20 to 45 years. And I

think you just you see this over and over in these stories. It's like you're people are in way too big of a rush.

It's like you're going to have these happy accidents. You just stay in the

happy accidents. You just stay in the game long enough to get lucky because as a byproduct of the stuff you're doing in the case of the you were working on the ball barrel, right? And you discover what a cyclone is because you were

solving a problem with the ball barrel.

you had there's no way you could have predicted at the beginning that you could apply it to another domain and then wipe the floor with all your competitors. Can you explain what you

competitors. Can you explain what you were doing and how you accidentally discovered the cyclone for the first time?

>> The important thing is is to observe things all the time for an engineer and work out how they work. And also

incidentally, you're always working out how to make them work better. Would it

be better if I did this? Isn't there a better way of doing that? And um and that that always happens with all the inventions. They don't just come out of

inventions. They don't just come out of the sky. They occur because you observe

the sky. They occur because you observe something. So curiosity and observation

something. So curiosity and observation and trying to understand things is the way to come up with new ways of doing things. And so it was with the with the

things. And so it was with the with the vacuum cleaner. As you said, we we um we

vacuum cleaner. As you said, we we um we had this huge plant that uh that sprayed the the frames with powder. A lot of the powder missed the frames because it's displaying these sort of open things.

Masses of it missing it. And you suck it. We were sucking it away onto a cloth

it. We were sucking it away onto a cloth filter, a huge cloth filter which clogged all the time.

>> Like a vacuum bag.

>> Like a vacuum bag. You see? So that's

you make the connection. You see, you make the connection. And what um clever people did um was have this huge cyclone. So I got a quote for one and we

cyclone. So I got a quote for one and we no way we could afford it. So over a couple of weekends we built one and it was 30 foot high and uh it we had to make hole in this roof of the factory to

stuff the has a chimney a sort of outlet at the top and a cyclone separates dust from air. So there between you and I

from air. So there between you and I there's a lot of dust and a cyclone will separate that by centrifugal force. Uh

so it's if you if you drive at a a corner of a road very fast in your Porsche, you uh if you drive too fast, you spin off into the ditch. Um and so

that is with a dust particle. Uh dust

particle though the ones between us are floating. They're very they're very

floating. They're very they're very fine. If you make them go around a

fine. If you make them go around a corner at very high speed, they get flung out to the edge into the ditch. So

a cyclone is a cont a circular container and you apply enormous centrifugal force to the dust particles within it and they all get flung to the outside wall and the only way out is from the center a

chimney in the center. So that's that's the basic principle of a cyclone. So I I made I yes I'd used vacuum everybody else and they always seem to make this screaming noise and and not pick things

up. And uh one weekend I uh I was

up. And uh one weekend I uh I was cleaning the house and the bag was full.

Well, no, it said the bag was clogged, which is a slightly different thing.

Anyway, I um so I I looked around for a new bag, couldn't find one in the house, so I uh opened it up, emptied it out, and then gaffitaped it back up again and

shoved it back in. Still no suction. So

I thought that's odd. I thought, you know, the s it didn't suck because the bag was full. I suddenly realized the bag was empty and something else was at play here. And I empted it up. I took

play here. And I empted it up. I took

the gaffitape off and opened it up. And

there was a fine lining of fine dust around the inside of the bag. And I

suddenly realized that the suction is created by airflow which has to go through the pores of the bag. But this

fine dust is clogging the pores. It's

not the fact the bag's full. It's the

fact that the bag is clogged. They call

it bag full indicator. That's a lie.

It's a bag clogged indicator. Um, so I got pretty angry about this. I did go got out and went and drove to a shop and bought a new bag and put it in and I had good suction for a short while and then

it dropped off again and it said bag full. It wasn't bag full. The bag was

full. It wasn't bag full. The bag was clogged. Um, so I got pretty angry about

clogged. Um, so I got pretty angry about this, but I and I came to a realization.

It's not a very clever realization that the all the air is trying to go through these little little holes in the bag and it's so easy for them to be clogged. And

then of course I remembered the big cyclone huge 30ft cyclone we built at the factory to stop the cloth getting clogged in dust. Instead we were spinning it out successfully by

centrifugal force. It never clogged. So

centrifugal force. It never clogged. So

I thought why don't we have one of those 30oot cyclones inside a vacuum cleaner you know a foot high.

So it wasn't very clever really. So I

built one out of cardboard.

>> It's very clever.

>> Well, not really.

>> No, it's very clever.

>> It's It's not very clever. So I built one very quickly in the kitchen at home out of cardboard and gaffer tape. Again,

I took the bag off my um upright vacuum cleaner, replaced it with a bit of hose and this cardboard mini version of the 30 foot one we built at work out of

steel and pushed it around. and I was pushing around the first vacuum cleaner that never loses suction. Um, so I thought I had a good idea, so I filed a

patent and I offered it to the BBO company.

>> Why? Because you guys were doing all this like gardening products, right?

>> Uh, I don't think were you making anything else that wasn't related to gardening before this at that and then I think one of your main observations like this is a not the best business because it's seasonal.

>> It's horrible, >> right? It's a seasonal product is awful.

>> right? It's a seasonal product is awful.

>> So why don't we especially in England?

>> But people buy vacuum cleaners all the time. So you know every day and that's

time. So you know every day and that's what I want cuz with with a seasonal product you know there's there's a fow period where you sell nothing and then spring comes along and hopefully you

know you start to sell. So it's and you sell the weather makes a huge difference to what you sell. And if you have a bad spring, it's a wet spring, you never make up for that. So if you if you

change your product and make it better, you don't actually know one year to the next whether it's an improvement or not, whether it's sold more, but it all depends on the weather. So you've got to employ people during the winter when you

don't need them and then the summer you need more people. It's just a hor seasonal business is a horrible business. So I pity any one who runs a

business. So I pity any one who runs a ski resort or >> So So you take this this vacuum cleaner.

All right, guys. I have the solution to our problems. It's a genius invention.

It's very clever. Even though you keep saying it's not clever. uh I have this clever invention and their response is >> their response is if there was a better vacuum cleaner who would electrolux and all the existing people would have done it.

>> I love that you started our conversation that history repeats. The way I say is like human nature repeats and so I think history rhymes but human nature is very

constant and this idea of no I can't possibly imagine a future that's different from our present just for some reason the mass majority of humans just cannot do that

>> like extra like step in thought process and obviously you're gifted with that >> and there's an assumption that experts do things correctly or in the >> which you learn from Jeremy Fry is ridiculous

>> true is not true's a great line in the book where it's like Jeremy Fry ridiculed experts.

>> Yes. Yeah. Well, no, he he wasn't that rude, but I mean, yes, he he he said don't trust an expert.

>> Yeah. Again, a very old idea. Andrew

Carnegie said the same thing. Henry Ford

said the same thing. This happened 100 years before you you were trying to make >> you know where it was repeated was it was during COVID.

>> Yeah.

>> We're following the science. Yeah.

>> We're listening to what the scientists say.

>> And I said, don't listen to what the scientists say, but don't do everything they say, you know. apply common sense.

So that you get this is this is something interesting because this is one thing I don't think I understand um at least your your thought process >> now you're you're you're kicked out you lose your patent you lose how long it

was 5 years that you're working on the boat so you did seven years on the sea truck then another five years and now you're like okay >> why was there another product >> you knew you wanted to invent you knew

you wanted I think invent more than manufacture I think now you love manufacturing once you became one but you were an inventor for Well, no, no, I was a manufacturer and a full manufacturer with the sea truck and with

the ballarrow, >> but at the beginning of the the vacuum cleaner, you wanted to just invent and license.

>> Yes. I thought that Yes. I thought,

look, I've done all that. Uh why can't I just invent and design things and license them to other people like an author, you know, writes a book and someone else sells it, >> which is surprising to me because you

clearly like to control.

>> You don't want to rely on >> bad decision. Okay. Anyways,

>> it was a bad decision. No, it was a bad idea.

>> Okay.

>> Uh but >> because you have to worry about what's going on in that other person's shot and there's like horror stories. They try to sell these licenses and they can talk about this in in the books because like you you might have one guy that's really

enthusiastic and you come back two months later and he's gone and someone else thinks the opposite. You know, it was a nightmare and I was becoming a lawyer because I was doing license agreements all the time and then

worrying what happens when they they cancel it and all that sort of thing.

What came to mind when you mentioned earlier the mistake that you thought thought your ball barrow partner your partners in the ball bear had where they wanted to chase this guy down in lawsuits right before um he passed away unfortunately I got to spend three hours at Charlie Munger's house and it's me

and other two other young entrepreneurs and he was just giving us advice for three hours and one thing he's just like don't waste your time at lawsuits he's like anytime I got screwed over by people he's like I didn't sue him I just knew realize that's a you can't do a a good deal with a bad person and I just

moved on he's like the lawyers are going to suck you dry it's a distraction from your main business like you just you you just have to keep moving on. So now you go, okay, I'm going to do the vacuum

cleaner. Uh, you immediately thought of

cleaner. Uh, you immediately thought of Jeremy Fry or you had a different way initially to to start this business.

>> Because I'd been uh having directors and investors who knew nothing about business, I thought I'd go back to someone who I really enjoyed working with and who clearly understood about starting

businesses, hasn't been enthusiastic about it like Michael Dell.

>> The five years that you said since left his employment, you still had a relationship with him?

>> Oh, yes. Yeah. No, you're still a friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Okay. And so you go to talk to him and he gets it immediately.

>> Yes. Gets it immediately. Actually, I

had two ideas that the He was He and I were both more attracted to the vacuum cleaner.

>> What was the other day?

>> Yeah. The other The other one was uh um I mean they now have it, but when you sand something, the dust used to go everywhere. Yeah.

everywhere. Yeah.

>> So, I had a device that that collect that collected it in a bag, funnily enough, or little cyclone uh while you were sanding something or drilling something. I mean it exists now but um

something. I mean it exists now but um when I started 50 years ago or whenever it was that it didn't exist but we decided that wasn't you know big time it was a it was a sort of peripheral thing

so we want to do something important >> and then whose idea was it let's not focus on manufacturing let's try to create a working prototype and then take the licensing route was it you or Jeremy

>> I think it was both of us I mean both of us have been manufacturers he much more than me and uh we both said look we're really inventing inventors, let's let's

um engineers, let's just do that bit and if the invention is good enough, surely people will license it.

>> Huh. And then this is where we now have >> delusion.

>> Yeah.

>> You have to deal with other humans that are very difficult.

>> Not just humans.

>> So now this is the point, this is what I talked about where this book changed my life because this is the point where you have an idea, you have the stubbornness of a mule, >> um you have obsession. I have a lot of

these same traits. I think you have them obviously to a greater degree and maybe we'll see how my life plays out. Uh, but

now this is the coach house, right? And

so for America, I had to look this up. I

was like, what the hell's a coach house?

It's actually like I heard another interview. He's like, it's like the app

interview. He's like, it's like the app the garage for Steve Jobs. It's like I'm working in the garage. We call it a coach house.

>> Do you have any savings? Are you in debt? Where's your fun?

debt? Where's your fun?

>> I'm in debt. I'm in debt. Um, I got into debt when I was a student.

>> Do you not understand how unusual that idea is? I have no money. I'm in debt.

idea is? I have no money. I'm in debt.

Let me do this other super risky thing that I You don't even have a working prototype yet?

>> No, no, no. It's just an idea really. Uh

I have a little cardboard one. Take me

in your mindset then. What do you think was driving you? Were you anger? Like

the desire to prove yourself, the love of the product, what was actually happening at that point? That is an unusual decision to make. A decision

that your entire empire now rests upon.

>> That's an incredible time in your life.

H well uh I saw a problem with a product that everybody uses every day, a vital product to clean their homes and I as a user I hated it because you have this

bag that clogs and then you have to go and buy another bag and so on. But more

than anything it's the performance is lousy. I mean, if you have a a 100 watt

lousy. I mean, if you have a a 100 watt light bulb, it's supposed to give 100 watts all the time. But this vacuum cleaner light bulb starts off at 100 watts and ends up at 20 watts pretty

quickly. So, it's deeply unsatisfactory.

quickly. So, it's deeply unsatisfactory.

So, I thought if I can solve that problem, I thought if I could solve that problem, other people would buy that product. It's no substance. It's just an

product. It's no substance. It's just an idea. What was the chance that you gave

idea. What was the chance that you gave yourself a success that you could actually solve the problem? You were

pretty self-confident you could.

No, >> they're getting crazier. No, of of course not. Um, you you don't know you

course not. Um, you you don't know you can solve it.

>> Yeah, >> but you've just got to try. And that's

true today. You know, when we're trying to solve, we don't know we can solve. We

didn't know that we can make a motor go at 130,000 RPM when existing motors only go 15,000 RPM.

>> I want to talk about motors. You don't

know. You You've just got to do it.

>> Okay. So, I want to talk about motors.

Don't let me forget that about that.

That's like one of the most you inadvertently said one of the most inspiring things like no I didn't think I was going to say no I have no money no I'm in debt just a simple flaky idea that it's intolerable that the product that I'm buying does not work I'm just

going to make a working version and if I make a working version other people buy >> you at that point you you're right to focus in on that moment because uh ideas

are so fragile and they're easily knocked away by anybody where experts are danger it's where experts are dangerous >> experts are dangerous Henry Ford said in his autobiography, which I think was published in like 1910, "If I ever

wanted to sabotage my competitors, I'd fill their ranks with experts. They know

so much about why something won't work, they'll get no work done."

>> Exactly. Exactly.

>> You have a very your your philosophy and his philosophy. There's a lot of like

his philosophy. There's a lot of like overlap repeats itself.

>> Human nature.

>> If you ask people what they want, they want a faster horse. You know, that that that repeats itself time and time again, many times every day.

>> Well, you made a good point. And I I heard another and you said in the book and I heard in another interview it's just like you're asking people to invent the future. That's their job.

the future. That's their job.

>> That's your job. What are you doing?

>> Yeah.

>> Let's focus back in on this this the very important point that or time in your life that that you just you mentioned. So you you set up in the

mentioned. So you you set up in the coach house you you're in debt. You have

no more money. So how are you funding things? I know your wife is like selling

things? I know your wife is like selling art, but like do you go immediately to the bank, take out another mortgage?

Like what do you actually do?

>> Exactly that. Uh I went to the bank to take out a mortgage and uh Jeremy Fry guaranteed part of it. So we we said we need I don't know what £50,000 or

something for to last two years. So he

put up a guarantee for £25,000 and I put up a guarantee for 25,000. So that got the thing started. Why could you do it for so cheap? Cuz your only expense was your time.

>> Yes. Yes. I'm working at home. Uh the

only expense is my time and a few cheap materials. I couldn't buy a lathe or

materials. I couldn't buy a lathe or equipment. I was doing it all with

equipment. I was doing it all with little black and deckers and things like that. Uh by hand I was making cyclones

that. Uh by hand I was making cyclones by rolling them in rollers. I went and bought some antique metal rollers down at a junk store for £25 and I could roll

cyclones. You know, they're a funny

cyclones. You know, they're a funny shape like a sort of uh upside down cone and solder them together. So I was doing everything by hand. Um but I could do

that. I mean it works. You you can do

that. I mean it works. You you can do things for nothing. You don't need to spend a lot of money.

>> And you thought, I'll be able to figure this out 2 years.

>> Yes. It took how long?

>> Five five years. And I'm still doing it.

>> Um >> you're not under you're not under great financial strain at the moment.

>> Um actually, I thought I thought I'd do it quicker than two years. I thought I'd do it with any year, but I discovered there were all sorts of problems. And also with almost any idea, you find that

when you start to apply for a patent that people have tried to do it before and patented things. There's very very few patents we file >> and you absolutely that was that was a that was you had to have something that was patentable, right?

>> Yes. Oh, yes. There's no

>> Oh, because we were going to try and license this. So, we had to have a good

license this. So, we had to have a good strong pattern.

>> Okay. which we we ended up having a good strong pattern because we we made an interesting discovery by accident because if you're doing enough experiments

um you're trying to be logical what you're doing but sometimes uh uh something occurs that's not logical

and it works. So you've just got to keep trying. Luck will happen to you. This is

trying. Luck will happen to you. This is

why you're such a big believer in the Edisonian principle of design where I I think in the book you say the biggest problem you have with young people even though you like working with them is teaching them one change at a time

>> record what happens they'll their instinct is come in here something's not working let's change 15 things and your point is how do you know what of the 15 things you have done have changed so at

this point you're doing you have thick like I know a lot about you cuz I've been studying you for nine years you work you've been working with your hands your entire Are you still working with your hands?

>> Uh, no. Not much. No. No. Your fingers

are useless. I can't do anything with them now. Arthritis.

them now. Arthritis.

>> This is like somebody that like, you know, lifts a lot of weights, but with their hands, I'm like, I was not prepared for how like your hands are huge and your fingers are they don't fit the rest of your body.

>> No. No. They're workman's hands. In

fact, this wretched fingerprint thing at airports. It doesn't work for me.

airports. It doesn't work for me.

They're worn thin. There's no there's no line there. And it's fun. Actually,

line there. And it's fun. Actually,

working with your hands and your brain is something that that schools despise for some reason.

>> This is going to sound really weird to you. Maybe won't, but because my entire

you. Maybe won't, but because my entire work is all digital, right? I read a book, I sit down, I record into a microphone that's digital, it's connected to a computer, it goes out into the world. I don't, you know, I

just see numbers go up on a screen. It's

just I'm by myself the whole time. Um, I

one thing that I do which is kind of working with my hands is I've insisted on I edit all the transcripts of every single episode by hand. And that is literally me going in there and changing

a sentence or a word or adding punctuation. If I ever do anything else

punctuation. If I ever do anything else or in addition even just for fun, it has to be something physical. Like I don't want to just have I I feel I'm missing out on something and I'm trying to approximate that by like physically

touching, you know, pieces of paper.

This is why the books look like they do.

And I don't read digital copies. Like I

like I sit down with a pen, uh a ruler, uh you know, post-it notes, scissors.

Like I feel like it's like arts and crafts over here. But there's just some weird uh satisfaction I get out of working with my hands. My hands don't look like yours though from like, you know, five decades of this.

>> I mean, it's it's something that's slightly despised at school. People who

are good with their hands, who can mend cars and do plumbing and so on.

>> The entire world that we inhabit is physical.

>> Well, yes. Exactly. I mean that's how man started >> nobody built this and like the building that we're in.

>> No, but we want to be intellectuals and not get involved in the dirty work that and it's a great shame because I think that's why we've lost as countries the ability to make things. Manufacturing is

vanishing from manufacturing made America great. It made Britain great.

America great. It made Britain great.

>> Any country that's good at it great.

>> Great. Yeah.

>> History again talk about history repeating. Hey,

repeating. Hey, >> why do you think I love what you said?

Uh we're going to go back to this, but you have this great thing that uh growing up in Britain at the time you did, you know, they still remember Churchill and World War II and everything else, you're like, well, one thing that we learned and we were taught

was like we're not the weak ones. Like

we can actually persevere through through unbelievably difficult times where it looks like the end is near and not give up and actually come on the other side as as as the victor. I think

that was very important. So you you you've borrowed the money, you're doing >> one prototype a day, two >> one or two a day. Yeah. Day after day

after day. And you say in the book, you

after day. And you say in the book, you know, I can celebrate now because my company, you know, we're doing like 300 million a year, I think, when the book ends or something like that. But I'd be

lying to you if I says there were days where I'd fail all day long, go in the house covered in dust and dirt, and essentially like get into bed thinking I

may just go on building prototype after prototype after prototype and never succeeding forever. What was your inner

succeeding forever. What was your inner monologue during that time? Like how

were you convincing yourself not to quit?

>> Well, there's hope. A thing called hope.

Okay.

>> Uh expectation. I don't mean um I don't mean expecting something to work. I mean

the excitement of going in the next day and seeing if the next experiment is better or you know why is it better or where's it taking me. So it's a it's a

journey of discovery. Um which is interesting. I mean it doesn't sound

interesting. I mean it doesn't sound from the outside it sounds very boring and worrying and all that sort of thing and it true it was worrying the debt was getting bigger all the time um but uh I

was getting a little closer a little closer and a little closer hadn't yet made it work and I hadn't got got a product but I was actually enjoying the process

even getting covered in dust because you I I our engineers do their own tests and build their own prototypes um Because there's something funny about

the process of actually making the prototype yourself that you learn and when it fails, it may have been something you noticed as you were gluing

it together or machining a part that the that sort of um visceral experience makes you get forward. Whereas if you someone else builds a prototype and

someone else does the test and you look at the test results, you you haven't you haven't got that same involvement, that same utter understanding of it.

>> The understanding, again quoting Charlie Munger, he his whole point was that he thought the that um the spreading of the theory of compar comparative advantage was actually really dangerous because like yeah, you can outsource like, oh,

this country over here can manufacture and we'll do finance. He's like, "But there's the there's knowledge and trial and error, >> and the company the country or the yeah, the country that is doing the manufacturing is actually learning at a

way faster rate than you because all day long they're just doing trial and error.

So it's not he's like the problem with people that come up with the theories is it's the first order effect is fine.

You're not considering you're just ignoring the second, third, fourth, fifth order effects and what's going to happen over a long period of time." I've

never heard anybody, it was in this book called Poor Charlie's Almanac. I was

like, I've never even thought of that before. I went to school for business

before. I went to school for business and they teach you all these things. I'm

like, "This is stupid. I think Monker is actually right about this."

>> Yeah. No, no. It experiencing the whole thing is absolutely critical.

>> But were you you were taking it day at a time? Did you allow yourself to think

time? Did you allow yourself to think how far were was it literally just what was in front of you? Like or were you thinking what this is going to be a month from now, two years from now

during this time? Well, I was imagining that if I can make it work that I could then go and show it to the existing manufacturers of these flawed vacuum cleaners with horrible bags in them,

smelly, noisy, dusty, expensive bags that someone would snap it up.

That's what that's that was the what was in my mind. And it wouldn't necessarily make me rich, but it might get me out of debt.

>> Money and finance is not a driver, too.

>> No, no. I have to survive and live, of course. And and money can sometimes be a

course. And and money can sometimes be a good determinant of whether what you've done is successful or not. Not always.

Sometimes it's it's just not. Um so I don't necessarily develop products to make enormous commercial success. Uh

it's nice to do that, but sometimes you do it because you want to do it. It

might it might be a small success. I

>> I think there's a very like simple genius to your approach in company building. I think is this is why I keep

building. I think is this is why I keep recommending your books over and over again because there is just a simple beautiful elegant genius to the way that you think. So this is

you think. So this is >> a haird dryer is probably a good example of that.

>> I used it this morning cuz you know we were making vacuum cleaners and uh um cooling products and heating products and so on. And we we done this tiny motor and we thought we

can make an even smaller one. If we done that motor, we can make an even smaller one and that will make a great haird dryer instead of this bulky great motors they have in at the moment. So that was the start of it. But every

>> and these are discovered by trial and error.

>> Uh yes. Well,

very early on in the vacuum cleaner business, we were buying these big heavy vacuum cleaner motors. Haven't got one here, but I mean they're big, you know, and they go at 30,000 RPM. And the

theory is the faster you make a motor go um the smaller it can be, the fewer materials it can have and the more electrically efficient it is. So uh

quite early on um we realized that we we needed to develop a new type of electric motor because electric motors this sort of thing haven't really changed for 150

years. It's the same Faraday idea.

years. It's the same Faraday idea.

Um so we um rather cheekily as uh people who don't make electric motors we thought let's make a new type of motor.

Uh so I recruited some people from British universities uh who are academics who um knew about electric motors and we started as a non electric motor manufacturer developing our own

motor. It took a long time took 10

motor. It took a long time took 10 years.

>> 10 years before you had success in that too.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And you can say we were being stupid and all that sort of thing, but no one had done this before. No one

had done made a motor go 140,000 RPM.

Let's jump. We're going to jump back and forth.

>> The dentist drill, but that only lasts a few seconds.

>> Let's jump back and forth between the history of building a company and what you're doing now.

>> Yeah. When you're thinking about the products you're making now, are you starting with because you seem to be my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong, one of the best companies in the world are making motors, electric motors.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> And so I feel that now you're like what else? We have this skill set. We have

else? We have this skill set. We have

the company's 45 years old, something like that.

>> Um what we we have this, you know, world class skill set. Are there other products that we find deficient in need of renewal that we can apply our ability

and world class talent at building electric motors to? Is that the pro is that a process of product development for you?

>> It can be. Okay.

>> And we had the brilliant idea of doing an electric car.

>> Uh because >> because um >> it's sitting in your um >> we make electric motors. We make uh uh filtration and uh cooling devices. Let's

talk about developing batteries.

>> Let's talk about the car.

>> So, we thought, oh, we should do an electric car.

>> When was this?

>> Uh 2014.

>> Okay.

>> And I looked at the what the industries were predicting and they said 2% electric cars by 2030. And I thought they've got that wrong. That can't be right. Uh so we started developing

right. Uh so we started developing electric car. We're developing batteries

electric car. We're developing batteries by the way. New technology. We still

are. So the battery manufacture your own batteries.

>> Not yet. Not yet. Uh well you want to >> we want to yeah >> what a surprise you want controller and it >> I didn't understand that >> new technology once not ordinary ones.

Um so we said we're developing batteries with electric motors are one of our things. Uh air treatment is another one

things. Uh air treatment is another one of our things that's pretty much an electric car. Um so uh we started

electric car. Um so uh we started developing one. What and then we got to

developing one. What and then we got to 2017 and diesel gate happened. So up the first three or four years Tesla was everything. Tesla was doing everything

everything. Tesla was doing everything very very successfully. Um but no one was taking any notice of that. They all

thought Tesla was a flash in a pan or something. They were ignoring it because

something. They were ignoring it because it was such a different thing for them to do. They make internal combustion

to do. They make internal combustion engines, not electric motors and batteries. So um the diesel gate changed

batteries. So um the diesel gate changed all that. they realized partly from PR

all that. they realized partly from PR point of view but also this horrific reaction to diesel gate that they had to get into electric cars. So all most of the big manufacturers immediately jumped

into electric cars and made them uh and they make a terrific loss on >> electric cars are very expensive thing to make. Batteries are incredibly

to make. Batteries are incredibly expensive. The electronics involved in

expensive. The electronics involved in the batteries are expensive. Um the

batteries are very heavy. So it's a it's a very different type of car and very expensive to make. I mean much more expensive than the internal combustion engine. They were selling them at a loss

engine. They were selling them at a loss for a complicated reason. Car

manufacturers emissions which are controlled by law are based on their overall emissions from their range of cars.

So if they had >> Oh, not the individual model.

>> Not the individual model. So if they had a um a model which didn't emit anything, they could go on making big gas guzzling vehicles on which to make a lot of

money. So they're prepared to lose money

money. So they're prepared to lose money on the electric car uh to make the money on the big gasg guzzling SUV or whatever it is. Um so but as a te Tesla and us

it is. Um so but as a te Tesla and us were just electric vehicle manufacturers. Um Tesla's brilliant and

manufacturers. Um Tesla's brilliant and you know $30 billion gone into a huge investment. I'm little company on my own

investment. I'm little company on my own and I have faced a very uncertain future trying to settle an electric car in that

sort of uh setup and uh if you have fairly low volume in your new manufacturer all your costs are 30% higher

because you're not buying very many um seats from the seat manufacturer or very many tires from the tire manufacturer and so on. But all your costs are much higher and we knew that because >> you had a series of structural disadvantages,

>> huge disadvantages and Tesla overcame that through sheer scale and and might and investment but you know we didn't have that sort of money. We couldn't

take that sort of risk so we stopped it.

>> And how much did you spend on R&D for that?

>> Well, we spent about 750,000 >> million750 million. I keep working in pounds. Half

million. I keep working in pounds. Half

a million. Half a billion pounds.

>> Okay. It's a 750 million.

>> Yeah.

>> And you have you have the the actual prototype sitting in your headquarters I think in Singapore.

>> Yeah. Oh yeah. We got one there.

>> Is there anyone that you can at least drive or they're just >> There was one we could drive very slowly but health and safety meant we couldn't take out. We built one of the final sort

take out. We built one of the final sort of >> Where's that one? Is that the one in Singapore?

>> No no that's a model in Singapore. No.

No. We've got it in one of our um hangers on our airfield.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you do you ever get in it anymore and just drive around? No, no,

>> it's too painful. Like, would you get in a seven a car that cost you $750 million?

>> One of the Everybody said, you know, you must have learned a lot from that experience. And the answer is I learned

experience. And the answer is I learned absolutely nothing.

>> What do you mean?

>> No, I did. No, I mean it was it was fun to do, but I uh we we >> it was fun to do.

>> It was fun to do. And um half the people were snapped up by other manufacturers, and half the people working on it came to work on and do um vacuum cleaners.

Oh, I didn't even think of the emotional. Think about if you worked on

emotional. Think about if you worked on something for a decade, it didn't go anywhere. They must feel

anywhere. They must feel >> Well, yeah. Quite a decade. Five, five

or six years.

>> Five or six years.

>> Yeah. Uh, no. It was so awful thing to do. Um, but um and sadly, we didn't

do. Um, but um and sadly, we didn't really learn anything from it. Yeah.

>> All of the founders and extreme winners that I have studied have this one trait in common. They have excessively high

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What is an example of you taking the existing skill set uh that Dyson has built up over many decades and applying it successfully to a new product then

that did not come from like that's the actual uh like sequence of events that you didn't identify the product first you're just like well we have the skill set what can we apply it to did you do that with haird dryers what what's like

an example of that >> uh yes I mean the the I think the way we approached the car was slightly dangerous >> okay >> because um we were saying look we've got these skill sets.

>> You were trying to match it, >> then we would say, "Oh, it looks that it would go very well in a car without really saying um you know, is that going to be a successful product? Is it going to be a breakthrough product?" Well, it

might have been a breakthrough product if we had managed to do the battery and certainly our motors we developed were very efficient motors and an electric car is all about efficiency or

aerodynamic efficiency drive motor efficiency and so that you can have better uh smaller batteries. Power

consumption is a big thing.

>> Mhm.

>> About six to a quarter of the power is taken up by air conditioning and heating for example. So if you can make that

for example. So if you can make that more efficient, you can make your car go further. So it's all really about how

further. So it's all really about how far can you go on on a battery.

>> How do you come up with a new product? I

know you're very secretive. You don't

talk about things you you haven't released yet.

>> No, it's a very good question. I haven't

I didn't answer it properly.

There's two ways. One is you realize you have a technology and you can make a haird dryer.

>> How many of these do you make now?

Motors?

>> Oh, we've made about 150 million of them >> a year though. Now?

>> Uh yeah, we make about 30 million a year. And it's very interesting in the

year. And it's very interesting in the book you said that companies other companies try to get you to make motors for them and you adamantly refuse. Is

that still correct?

>> That's correct.

>> And I love what you said because you want your engineers focus exclusively on your own products, the importance of focus as opposed to retrofitting your technology to somebody else's product in

somebody else's shop. It's not a good commercial decision that, by the way, the one I've taken. Yeah, but you're >> because I could um have a a division that dealt with um other people supplying motors to other people, which

I'm sure would make money.

>> Okay, that this is this is very interesting. I think this is missing in

interesting. I think this is missing in business. I am We talked about before we

business. I am We talked about before we started recording, I had this idea of anti-business billionaire. These people

anti-business billionaire. These people that are so obsessed with the the quality of the product they're making.

That's their number one. They just want to make the best possible product. They

do things that may seem irrational because it would improve the quality of the product. And my the point I'd make

the product. And my the point I'd make because there's there's I think you're one of them. There's series of people I've read about where people like that that are just obsessed with making the best product for customers to solve an

actual real need and retain control.

They wind up with the money anyways. But

that's not the motivator. So why explain your rational and I think it's a right rational, but I'm very curious if you can actually articulate it. Why do you not set up this other division that you wouldn't have to run that would just

make a bunch of money doing this thing?

Why don't you do that?

>> Because that doesn't excite me.

>> Thank you.

>> You don't forget life is for living.

>> I know that's for making money. That's

it. It's developing your technology and coming out with different radical products. That's what interests me. Not

products. That's what interests me. Not

making money per se.

>> How long have you had the discipline to adhere to that? I'm just following excitement. I'm following curiosity. I'm

excitement. I'm following curiosity. I'm

following interest. How how long have you been like that forever? I think so.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'm ve very single-minded um and not being distracted by things.

And actually, it's really important that because um when when you when when you start running a business or doing things, uh you have too much to do.

There's too much to do. So, you have to make all the time you have to make a choice. What's the most important thing

choice. What's the most important thing to do? What's the most important thing

to do? What's the most important thing to do? If you get to be a big miss,

to do? If you get to be a big miss, that's still important.

>> Say more about that.

>> You Well, if you get big, there's a tendency to think you lot lots of people say you can do everything, >> but you can't because people you can't do everything. You can't do everything

do everything. You can't do everything well. Uh, and you probably can't do

well. Uh, and you probably can't do everything anyway. So, the important

everything anyway. So, the important thing is to decide what's really the most important thing and just do that.

And they're going to be things you don't do and there's going to be some failures because you're not doing things. But if

you're doing something really really well, then you'll be okay.

>> How do you go about deciding what's the most important thing for you?

>> Well, that's the fun.

That's fun. I mean, it it's you decide the most important thing. And that

that's an important decision. Uh and you say, well, I haven't got time to do the other things. I won't do it. Will one of

other things. I won't do it. Will one of those kill me? I don't know. Probably

not. So, I'll concentrate on the thing I really want to do, which I think is the right thing to do. Is single-mindedness

and focus the same thing to you or do you mean different things?

>> Yes, it's the same thing.

>> Same thing.

>> And if your brain isn't very big, which mine isn't, it's it's a much better way to do to run your life is just to concentrate on one thing at a time.

>> But you have multiple product lines.

>> Yeah, that's stretching my brain a bit.

>> Yeah.

>> But yes. Um Yes. And I'm learning to manage that in myself. I've got lots of wonder people around me helping me, including my son. Oh, I know you did the vacuum cleaner first and you did the

vacuum cleaner as sold as the only product of Dyson for how long?

>> Eight years probably.

>> Okay. Focus. And then was the washing machine the second?

>> The washing machine came on quite early after about four or five years, >> but it didn't work.

>> It did work very well. Don't say that to me.

>> No. Uh, and I I made another mistake with that, which was that um, you know, I've been making vacuum cleaners at at

about um $300, $200, $300. The washing

machine was um $1,200 $1,300 to start. So, it was more expensive than

to start. So, it was more expensive than other people's washing machines.

>> Yeah, but the vacuum cleaner was more expensive than other vacuum cleaners.

So, >> I I wasn't I wasn't learning from history.

And my marketing people said, "If you make it cheaper, you'll sell a lot more."

more." Right? So for the last time in my life,

Right? So for the last time in my life, I listened to them. And

um you know, marketing people would get on selling things, not decide what product should be or how much it should be sold for. So I listened to them and we didn't sell anymore. We just lost more money.

And um the other directors, non-executive directors said, "You've got to stop that because they're losing money at it." Actually, if I'd been on my own, I'd have probably gone on with

it and put the price up. But um you know, sometimes you have to listen to other people and they were probably right. So we put it behind us and got on

right. So we put it behind us and got on with what we were doing.

>> They're still in operation, though.

>> Oh, yeah. I use them. I mean,

>> so you have your own Dyson washer.

>> Yes. Yeah. It's great. It's great. And

people have now copied a lot of the ideas like the big door, you know, if you're trying to put a duvet in a tiny little hole.

So, uh, and it was very expensive to make actually that and I should have learned my lesson from that because it had two drums, had two motors and a gearbox. So, it it had a lot of things

gearbox. So, it it had a lot of things that other washing machines don't have, but it did a very good job. It was a very good washing machine.

>> It begs the question, are there any other Dyson products that you own that are not available to consumers? What

else have you made for yourself?

>> Thought about that. So, I keep talking about it.

>> Tell me after, please. I want to hear about this. I want to go back to this

about this. I want to go back to this because I I do think it's it's one of the most important things. The way I just described this like this this crazy experience I've been on, which you know, I'm probably at the when I'm done probably going to read more biographies

and autobiographies of you know, entrepreneurs and founders and inventors and anybody else in the world. And, you

know, everybody's always like, "Give me like a top 10 list or like break it like can you condense down what you've learned so far." are. And I was like, well, if I can condense it down to a one word of how different these people are

to most people like the most people in, you know, mass humanity, it's it's focus. They are un it's one word. It's

focus. They are un it's one word. It's

like they're unbelievably focused. I

still, if you don't mind me just ask you another question just to see if you have anything more to say about this because it's something like I'm obsessed with as well. How do you figure out what to

well. How do you figure out what to focus on for you?

>> That's a very good question. Um, I think it it's something which you believe could work and that's a breakthrough.

It's something completely different.

It's going to do a job much better and that's what you think. But of course, you can only >> What are you following there? Is it

intuition? Is it just I can't get this off of my mind. Like what is actually happening?

>> It's partly intuition. But I I don't believe the intuition is uh feeling or guesswork. Well,

guesswork. Well, >> I think elaborate on that.

>> Intuition is much more interesting because it's all sorts of influences. It

could be it could be history. It could

be all sorts of things that um form an opinion that that um you define as intuition, but actually it's not. It's a whole lot

of hundreds, thousands of things you've experienced which help you make a decision or give you an insight or give you hope. What do you think is guiding

you hope. What do you think is guiding you to the right to focus on the right thing?

>> That's the hard thing. I mean ultimately it's intuition. Um but it it intuition

it's intuition. Um but it it intuition isn't just um it's not a fairy it's it's not a feeling you know you know it it

it's you you your your your brain has been fed with hundreds of different things and from that you make a decision and you can't rationalize it and say oh

that's that that that that that therefore this equals that. It's an

intuition that um I could be right, I could be wrong, but I think I'm going to back that I'm right about this. And then

you got to make it work. Yeah. But it's

very fragile. That early idea, I came back to that with the vacuum cleaner. Um

you know, the the cyclone idea. It's a

very fragile idea. You can blow it away.

It's it's worth nothing.

>> And they and they tried to your partners in Bombar tried to blow it away.

>> Everybody tried. My friends tried to blow it away. What on earth you did?

>> They took hold of you right away.

Yes. And did your confidence deepen as you get down the path?

>> Uh, >> or were you pretty adamant like, "No, I'm not going to give up until I solve this problem at the beginning."

>> What's that?

>> At the beginning, >> I got the bug and I'm not I'm going I'm going to go on. I'm going to make it work.

>> And um, you know, it took 5,000 much longer than I thought it would and all that sort of thing. And I got deeper and deeper into debt. But um, I was going to make it work. I got a wrap by a tell.

I'm not going to let it go. I've got to make it work. I've got to and the more the bigger the deck got, I suppose the pressure became greater and greater.

>> The pressure did, but the did you have like a you had to have lols and confidence and like doubt throughout that period?

>> Well, of course I had doubts and made it work.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You can't pretend you don't have doubts.

>> Were you talking to anybody about this?

>> Uh dear, my wife. Um nobody else. No,

>> not even Jeremy.

>> No, no, no. Actually, um I I bought him out.

>> Let's go back to that. Okay. Can you

explain why you bought him out? And this

was this is after failing for, if I remember correctly, after failing to try to license it.

>> Yes.

>> The first successful license was Japan, right?

>> Uh no. The one that made money. You

making like 70,000 a year.

>> Yes.

>> And they sold it not even to You weren't even sure they used it because it was like pink, right?

>> No, they did use it. I thought you said in the book they like they they may have just been there for like some kind of art.

>> Maybe maybe they they didn't sell very many but they did sell some and I never discovered how many they sold because they were very secretive about it. But

they did pay me the minimum royalties.

>> That's when you brought Jeremy out.

>> Yes. We had a a big lawsuit.

>> Is this to Amway?

>> Yes.

>> Oh god.

>> And he hated lawsuits. Uh so when that started he wanted to get out. Um so I I >> Was that contentious between you? Did it

damage your relationship? No, not at all. No. And we remained very good

all. No. And we remained very good friends afterwards. He just said, "I

friends afterwards. He just said, "I hate lawsuits and my financial adviser thinks the vacuum cleaner is going nowhere." And he owned 49% of the

nowhere." And he owned 49% of the business.

>> So what do you buy an offer?

>> I bought him out.

>> How much money though?

>> £45,000.

>> This is another thing we haven't we >> His children never forget. They will

never forgive. So I've remained friendly with his children, but they they will never forgive me. I think people will know this, you know, hopefully in the the introduction or whatever the case is, but you own 100% of Dyson.

>> Yes.

>> Is one of the most valuable privately held companies in the world.

>> Well, I think it's that, but >> because I I've heard stories. That's

fine. We don't talk about it. Um,

>> and you you bought out your 49% partner for £45,000, >> right? So, what happens now? You're on

>> right? So, what happens now? You're on

your own.

>> Yeah. Completely on my own. And you

stayed I know you have executive director >> fight the lawsuit. Had to fight that lawsuit with Amway.

>> Yes.

>> For 5 years.

>> Yes.

>> Uh borrowing money, selling actions in the lawsuit, lawyers on contingency, all that kind of thing. And it took 5 years of my life.

>> The only income was the the drip of license agreements from that point.

>> Yes. A drip of license agreements kept me kept me just kept me going.

>> At one point you said to hell with it.

I'm doing this on my own. I meant not licensing like I'm going to manufacture and control it from soup to nuts.

>> Yes. It was um at the end of the lawsuit actually that's when I decided I've had enough of this licensing game. I'm going

to do it myself.

>> But you have no money >> and I'm no money.

>> I'm sick of traveling cuz I was traveling to Japan, America all the time and I I was just sick of it and I got menitis from it I think from an airplane. So I thought that I'm gonna

airplane. So I thought that I'm gonna stop and I'm gonna have a sort of cottage industry making vacuum cleaners in Britain.

>> That was the >> Okay. But then you have to borrow I

>> Okay. But then you have to borrow I think it was like £600,000.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> For tooling.

>> Uh for the tooling.

>> And you did that how?

>> Well, I went to various venture capitalist people who ought to lend to startups and the kind of response I got was um well, you know, it's not very interesting area. we're investing in

interesting area. we're investing in restaurants, fast food restaurants at the moment, or we're not lending to you because you're an engineer.

Uh if you bring someone from the industry to run it, then we might consider backing it. Those are the sort of responses I was getting from venture capitalists as we used to call them. But

um and uh so in the end, I went to my local bank uh the clearing bank.

>> And you're putting up as collateral my house >> again.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Um, I'm getting quite used to this, by the way. Dearree has to keep signing the awful gray forms for signing away the house. So, um, yeah, I borrowed

and they lent me a huge amount of money actually. I mean, it was 1992. There was

actually. I mean, it was 1992. There was

a big housing crisis. The banks had lots of prop, you know, return properties.

Um, >> wait, there was a guy is didn't somebody like inside the bank vouch for you? The

Lloyds Bank ran a system instead of going to a man sitting in a branch of the bank and borrowing from them. They

had a sort of flying doctor who went around businesses. So he was a real

around businesses. So he was a real business expert and he he didn't work from an office. He just went round people's businesses. Very interesting

people's businesses. Very interesting man actually. And uh he the the bank

man actually. And uh he the the bank refused his request for the loan. So he

went to the ombbudsman within the bank and persuaded them to lend me the money.

And it was a crazy thing for them to do actually because uh you know this guy setting up business to make vacuum cleaners to compete with all the big multinationals. What on earth's he doing

multinationals. What on earth's he doing living in a little coach house in near Bath, you know, when you think about it, it's completely mad.

>> Yes.

>> And when um we were making a profit and everything was okay, I said to him, why did you lend it to us? Why did you get go through the hoops to lend me that money which was so sort of risky thing

to do at a time of deep recession when they repossess had to repossess so many houses? He said um oh well I went home

houses? He said um oh well I went home to my mother my my wife and said what do you think of a vacuum cleaner without a bag and she said brilliant exactly what

I want. And he said, "I also saw that

I want. And he said, "I also saw that you had fought a five-year lawsuit in America, and I saw that you had determination."

determination." So, I was very lucky. It's a real piece of luck.

>> Do you think that is the key to to succeed? Is a determination more

succeed? Is a determination more important than I mean, we talked about focus, but determination is much more important than intelligence.

>> Yes. Yes. Dogginess. Never never giving up. Um, just carrying on and not

up. Um, just carrying on and not worrying what other people are saying.

You know, my friends said, "You're completely mad. What are you doing is

completely mad. What are you doing is spending all the every day in that shed with all that dust around?"

>> So, most people around you were trying to dissuade you from what you're doing.

>> Yes. Yes. Everybody thought I was mad.

>> How did you receive that like feedback or that criticism? the more I got it, the more encouraged I became actually because I don't I remember when I when I was trying to when I was trying to

license it um to I went to all the people who are now my competitors and a lot of others as well and they all turned it down. They were all quite interested in it but turned it down and

the more it was turned down the more I realized I had something.

You believed you're right. Yeah.

>> You had no doubt.

>> Yeah.

because um they never really gave a good reason.

>> Well, for the vacuum uh the existing manufacturers, there's a great story in the book, you know, again, I'm going to quote Charlie Margaret. He's one of my heroes. It's like never ever think about

heroes. It's like never ever think about anything uh when you should be thinking about the power of incentives. He's like

incentives rule human like they just drive so much of human behavior. And I'm

thinking of Charlie when I'm reading your book and it's like yeah, you know what? Turns out it's really hard to

what? Turns out it's really hard to sell. I know you don't like this word,

sell. I know you don't like this word, the bagless vacuum cleaner. You think it should be like no loss of suction suction vacuum cleaner. I'm just going to use the term for the story. It's

really hard to sell a bagless vacuum cleaner to people make $500 million a year selling vacuum bags.

>> Well, it was partly that um it was partly that and partly I realized they didn't want to change human history.

>> Yeah. And that and that that's what encouraged me. I mean although each

encouraged me. I mean although each rejection I should have got more and more depressed.

>> You had the opposite reaction.

>> It had the opposite reaction. The these

guys don't want to change. I I'm going to I think this is going to be one of the most important things I learned from this conversation is this idea assuming that you're doing things for the right reason. You're following your curiosity.

reason. You're following your curiosity.

You you're completely obsessed with what you're doing. This idea of taking

you're doing. This idea of taking essentially what it's a negative and turning into fuel. You're turning into fuel. You're trying to dissuade me and

fuel. You're trying to dissuade me and it's only making me more dogged. I think

deter your dogged determination is a great line by the way.

>> Yes. It's not Well, no. The the they're rejecting it without having a good reason. Yeah. That's what was

reason. Yeah. That's what was interesting. Yeah,

interesting. Yeah, >> you would have listened if they found a design flaw or if they told you something there, but you're like, "No, no, I am right where everybody else is wrong difference for the sake of it."

That is how you build an insanely val products in your category. You seem to be able to build a best product in every category you create. But also how you create value like endurable value that you're actually doing something

differently and better than you know everybody else.

>> But that's what I'm trying to do different and an advanced take. You also

have a crazy line in this book which I don't know if you remember but you would be different even if it was worse. I

don't know if you still believe that now.

>> Oh yes. Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> All right. You got to say more about that. That is a crazy thing to say.

that. That is a crazy thing to say.

>> Yes. Cuz I mean sometimes the the um for example with the vacuum cleaner uh tipping the dirt out of a bin someone would say some people would say it's

worse than disposing of a bag because it creates a bit of dust.

>> Yeah. Um so the there aren't I mean not everything is always perfect about something which makes progress. Um and

eventually you overcome the problem but uh so not everything is better.

Sometimes not everything is better but the good overcomes the bad. It's much

better than the bad >> but the difference is you're essentially organizing design principle. It has to be different. You're not going to make

be different. You're not going to make there's no reason for >> it's got to be better. It's got it's got to be better.

>> It has to be better.

>> Yeah. In my my opinion.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> But it has to You're not going to make like another me too product.

>> No. No. No. There's no because I don't want to do that. I'm not motivated to do that. And I built a team around me who

that. And I built a team around me who are motivated to take risks and do something different and better always.

So, let's go back to you buy the tooling. I'm I'm not going to like redo

tooling. I'm I'm not going to like redo the entire book. We'll skip over the issue that you're having to move the tooling and you're having issues, but then eventually you have this great line in the book. You end one of this

chapter. These are like my favorite like

chapter. These are like my favorite like some of my favorite three paragraphs in the entire book and it's on total control. And you say from the first

control. And you say from the first sprouting of the idea through research and development, testing and prototyping, model making and engineering drawings, tooling, production, sales and marketing all the way into the homes of the nation, it is

most like likely to succeed if the original visionary and you put in parentheses or mule because you're only celebrating your stubbornness sees it right through.

>> As I often have said, I aim not to be clever but to be dogged. and my

doggedness had gotten me so far to a point where I had my very own cyclonic vacuum cleaner at last. On May 2nd, 1992, I found myself looking at the

first fully operational, visually perfect Dyson dual cyclone. I was 31 years old when I tore the bag off my

Hoover and stuck a serial packet in the hole. May 2nd, 1992 was my 45th

hole. May 2nd, 1992 was my 45th birthday.

still heavily in debt.

>> Do you do you remember that day?

>> Oh, yeah. No, I do. Yes, I do. Yeah, I

remember. I remember quite a lot of my birthdays. But yes, know that that was

birthdays. But yes, know that that was really important because uh to get to that point taken me 11 years, I think, wasn't it? 11 years, something

like that. Uh and a lot of money. Uh and

like that. Uh and a lot of money. Uh and

I was hugely in debt, but I had the first prototype that worked.

outside of your family, is that period of your life the period you're most proud of?

>> Uh, no. No, I don't. No, it's all it's all a It carries on. Doesn't stop. So, I

I don't ever sort of stop and think now's a moment to be proud.

>> Um, in fact, I don't really like pride.

>> Why? It's sort of self-erving. Um, it's

never good enough. So, you can't be proud.

explain more.

>> Well, I'm never satisfied. I mean, the the there's always something wrong. I've

got to go on improving it. You you talk about this in this book that the engineering mindset, if you're reading this, I think you even say like if you're reading this, you have this mindset, you know, like it never turns off. You're never never satisfied. You

off. You're never never satisfied. You

can't just go home like, oh, everything's this is great. You just see the imperfections or I don't know. Is it

really focusing on the imperfections or just focusing on the the the missing improvement?

>> It's just knowing that things could be better.

that there's a better way of doing it, that I haven't done it well enough, that um I've got to make it better. I'm I'm

just driven like that.

>> So, I'm never satisfied. And I think satisfaction is a pretty dangerous thing anyway.

>> Say more.

>> Well, because there's a kind of smuggness to it that that I've I'm perfect and I don't need to do any better than this. I can relax.

And I I just don't think like that. I'm

always wanting to do something better.

Um, my wife hates it because when we're exploring the car or something, I always think there's something better around the corner and she wants to stop and enjoy where we are at the moment. So, I

mean, I do accommodate her on that, but I mean it it's that's that's how I think and feel. But does that lead to But you

and feel. But does that lead to But you seem to be a very like happy and like not content, that's not the right word, but you seem to be like a happy person where this is not like a torturous inner

monologue where you're all you see is like you're never satisfied and you see the things that could be fixed.

>> It is slightly torturous but but but it's what it's what I do. It's what me >> but like it can also lead you to you know periods of like very like dark un

like unhappiness. How do you how do you

like unhappiness. How do you how do you not let it >> Well, I suppose I'm lucky because I I don't think it makes me that unhappy. I

mean, I have moments of unhappiness, but but uh >> give me an example of a moment of unhappiness.

>> Well, you know, lawsuit goes wrong or so or something or an experiment doesn't work and I hope it would those sort of things. But but I bounce back from them

things. But but I bounce back from them very quickly. They're just minor. No.

very quickly. They're just minor. No.

>> Is that more of like you got better with the wisdom of age and experience?

>> No. No. I've always been like that. So

you've basically been the same person and you just never stopped.

>> Never stopped. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say

I'd say that's true. And I think um uh my father's death has quite a lot to do with that. Coming back to that and um I

with that. Coming back to that and um I was uh I was in a sort of a group because I we lived in a school in a public school in a private school is

probably a better expression. Um, and

the other teachers children uh was the same sort of age. So we were a group and we had the run of the school grounds during the holidays, but I was the youngest. So the others were up to five

youngest. So the others were up to five years older than me. So I was always dealing with people who were bigger and stronger than me or cleverer than me.

And um, so I think it made me always strive. So, I think a combination of of

strive. So, I think a combination of of being the youngest because I was the youngest of three children anyway, uh, and younger than this group that I went around with made me try to punch above

my weight a bit and made me very determined because in order to succeed at anything, I had to be really really good. In order to beat them at tennis or

good. In order to beat them at tennis or whatever it was or in a race, I had to be um punching above my weight. So I

think I think that and losing my father um so losing realizing I was on my own um and I was away at boarding school on

my own. So that that whole combination

my own. So that that whole combination uh made me the sort of character I am made me never satisfied always wanting

to find something better uh and bouncing back from failures.

That's a perfect spot to end this conversation. James, they say never meet

conversation. James, they say never meet your heroes. They're 100% wrong. Um, I

your heroes. They're 100% wrong. Um, I

don't feel ashamed at all. You're one of my heroes. This conversation has been

my heroes. This conversation has been excellent. Out of all the people that

excellent. Out of all the people that I've studied and met, uh, you're definitely the person I try to emulate the most. So, I really appreciate you

the most. So, I really appreciate you taking the time.

>> Well, thank you, David. It's great to hear your story as well, how you succeeded.

>> Thank you very much.

>> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please

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sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've

Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear

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