New Monetization Model That Turns Churned Users into Revenue

[music] [music] What is up app nation? It is Steve P.

Young, founder of appmasters.com, and you are in the right place when if you're trying to figure out how to grow those downloads and more importantly, how to increase those revenues. And

today I got a phenomenal guest that's going to really help you turn those turned users into actual revenues. Why I

love this product. Well, I'm going to say that. I'm going to save why I love

say that. I'm going to save why I love this product so much. But if you got any questions, leave them in the chat. And

without further ado, let's bring in Michael Gance.

>> And I got everyone [music] Sorry, Michael. We have a cool little

Sorry, Michael. We have a cool little video that we always have before we bring you in. How you doing? Welcome to

the show.

>> Great to be here.

>> Yeah, good to have you, Michael. And

what I really love, so I'm going to pull up your website and we are going to be integrating Encore into our own apps as well. But while I pull this up, you want

well. But while I pull this up, you want to tell us briefly about Encore and then you guys could figure out, you guys can go to encorekit.com if you want to learn more about it.

encorekit.com.

But go ahead, Michael.

>> Yeah, it came out of our experience. Um,

you know, I went to Stanford, started um company called Yaw with a friend of mine from Stanford and we were building an AI shopping assistant. So, it was um, you

shopping assistant. So, it was um, you know, a Chrome extension. As you

shopped, it it gave you advice about what to buy. um feedback on your purchases. We thought it was a really

purchases. We thought it was a really cool product. We had some people who

cool product. We had some people who really liked it. Um and we tried making a bunch of Tik Toks about it. We got

200,000 followers on Tik Tok. Um but

people weren't downloading it a lot. We

we had 7,000 users and um we started experimenting a ton with monetization.

like we went to all these brands, got special offers, um tried tons of different things, >> and what we found worked really well was

integrating offers that made sense with our product. So, one of the things that

our product. So, one of the things that was most lucrative for us was, you know, right after you installed, we said, Steve, there's there's something else you have to do to get the full experience. You should download Capital

experience. You should download Capital One. They have discounts. We have advice

One. They have discounts. We have advice on what to buy. It's a perfect combination, right? and a lot of people

combination, right? and a lot of people would do it and Capital One was paying a lot of money for um getting those installs. Um and so we started doing

installs. Um and so we started doing this in other places in the app like figuring out, okay, where would be a natural place to combine you're buying this lip gloss, there's this special

offer for another product that you'd really like. And if we could make it

really like. And if we could make it natural enough and fit enough, people really liked it. A lot of these things were free, like do a free trial of this or get, you know, a free at home um trial of that. And people love the idea

of like, wow, >> this is very in context. It's it's

exactly what I need >> and it's free. And the brands who we were bringing in >> were super excited about getting even a free trial user. They were like, you know, our CAC on ads is $100, $200. This

is way better. It's it's way more in context. It makes sense. They're in this

context. It makes sense. They're in this they're in the exact journey that we're on.

>> Yeah.

>> And we were making a lot of money on our users on a per user basis, but you know, we we had trouble growing users. So, at

some point we were like, we're really good at moneti monetizing this very small user base. We have these strategies that work really well. We

have relationships with brands. How can

we bring offers into other apps that have more distribution and help them monetize? And for us, we were integrated

monetize? And for us, we were integrated instream to their shopping. So, we could make it feel very natural. And we

recognized a lot of ads in apps don't feel that natural, right? Like they kind of are intrusive. um they're bothersome and we didn't want to create a product that would distract people from the core

app experience. And so we thought about

app experience. And so we thought about okay, what's a moment in apps where people might be open to an offer if it was really well targeted, if it made sense, if it was free. And we thought

about the subscription decline moment as kind of this magical moment where like the user is gone.

>> The there's the app doesn't want to give them any more access. It's kind of like this impass.

But to us, the impass never made that much sense because the app wants to keep you, right? Like

it doesn't want to just say goodbye forever. And the user wants to keep

forever. And the user wants to keep using the app, right? Maybe they don't want to pay $10 a month. Exactly. But it

seems to be there's some sort of deal.

And so we developed this product that allows you when you decline a subscription, when you say don't want to pay $10 a month, you can do a free trial of a different product like Paramount or

Disney Plus or Hulu. Um, and Hulu will actually pay the app for your free trial. So, um, they'll pay your

trial. So, um, they'll pay your subscription fee. The app benefits

subscription fee. The app benefits because, you know, they now have a someone who continues to use the app and is making them money through this partner. The user benefits because a lot

partner. The user benefits because a lot of times they don't have to pay anything out of pocket and they can keep using the app they love. Um, and the brand benefits because they're getting users at a way lower CAC than they otherwise

would and they're getting them in in the flow while someone is trying out new products. So, we found this kind of like

products. So, we found this kind of like magical moment that could create a win-winwin.

And the way we analogize it is um I'm Mexican, so uh you know, in Mexico you have these street sellers and I I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but like you go up to these street

sellers, you're thinking of buying like a mango, you know?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Walk away. They never let you just walk away without like doing something.

They're like, "Wait, wait, don't leave.

you know, I want to give you two mangoes for the same price or whatever. And we

felt like, you know, apps are run by PE that's someone who might have like a third grade education. They have this instinct. It's the correct business

instinct. It's the correct business instinct, which is like this person is interested in in these mangoes. They

want the product. Don't let them walk away for free, right? And we think every app owner should have that same instinct, which is this person does like your product. They want to use it. If

your product. They want to use it. If

they're walking away, like there's some sort of deal you can strike. and let's

figure that out.

>> I love it. You know, that's why when I was teasing it, I was like, "This is why I love this product because we've seen this iteration before." And I love things that are proven and then just bringing it to the app space. Like in

the earlier days, it was all games and you you have Tapjoy and you have these offer walls where you get free credits for downloading another game and so you're sort of just incorporating that

into subscription apps. And I think I remember talking to your team, wasn't this like an e-commerce thing too? Like

wasn't this popular in e-commerce space or am I mistaken?

>> Yeah. Um there's a company called um Rock that does this in e-commerce. So

after you buy something, they'll come up with post-purchase recommendations >> and they're really successful. They're

like a $4 billion company. Um

>> and they they sort of prove that these offers work like timing offers to with purchases. It's just never been done

purchases. It's just never been done like within apps at this moment of subscription decline. And if you're an

subscription decline. And if you're an app owner, like the moment of subscription decline is everything, right? Like if you can make any marginal

right? Like if you can make any marginal improvement at that moment, it's going to have such huge effects downstream, right? Your kakout TV is going to be

right? Your kakout TV is going to be completely different. The economics of

completely different. The economics of your app are going to be completely different. The amount the the like live

different. The amount the the like live user base over time is going to just be massively better. Even with a three,

massively better. Even with a three, five, 10% improvement there. You're

going to see huge effects that continue for years, right? We see this moment as like if we can help apps get better at this moment, we can completely change the game in terms of their unit economics.

>> Completely agree. And you know the number one complaint because you know I even hear this from developers like I talked to my mom and I talked to my wife and they're that I never pay for an app.

Well now you don't have to like you literally don't have to pay for it.

>> Right.

>> And we we we think um you know I hear that a lot right like oh I would never pay for app.

>> Yeah. I always ask people, "Open up your subscriptions. I want to see." Right.

subscriptions. I want to see." Right.

Yeah.

>> And then [laughter] there are apps there that they're paying for. I'm like, "What about this one?

for. I'm like, "What about this one?

What about this one?" It's like, "Well, I need that for that. I need that for that." And so

that." And so >> what what we what we see our product is doing is >> like, "Hey, Steve likes this app." He's

not convinced yet, right? He he already decided maybe I don't want to pay, but with more time, he still could be convinced right?

What does it take for an app to go from being a cool thing you're trying to actually a necessity in your life that you feel like I can't live without?

>> It takes time sometimes for people, right? So, some people see your app in

right? So, some people see your app in the first seven days or whenever the free trial period is, they see the value, right? But if they don't, like

value, right? But if they don't, like why not give them more time to discover how good your app is? And that's what these extended trials do is they give you more time to experience that and that time is paid for by another brand.

>> Yeah. I mean, I love this calculator because the highest like trial activation rate, and that's not even paying, right? The most the normal on

paying, right? The most the normal on average, and I got this from Apple, is like 2%. Most apps convert from

like 2%. Most apps convert from >> free users to paying users at just 2%.

And so, you're looking at almost a 90%, but I'm being conservative here, and I'm just doing the trial. But if even if you got like >> a,000 downloads a month, that's like an

extra $600 for you for like literally doing nothing. And if you you're doing

doing nothing. And if you you're doing like 10,000, well that's, you know, like 100,000. That's a significant amount of

100,000. That's a significant amount of money that you're just leaving on the table. And, you know, I love how you

table. And, you know, I love how you guys just put like we're we're only trying to convert 15%. Like these are the ones that are, you know, we're only converting 15%. So, real easy numbers to

converting 15%. So, real easy numbers to achieve here.

>> Yeah. And it's not just money, right?

Like it's it's it's not just revenue.

It's a change to your unit economics, which is way better, right? is if you scale your ad spend or you scale your user acquisition 100 times, you're going to these numbers are going to look 100 times better, right? So, it's like

>> if you if you change the fundamental unit economics of your business, that's way better than getting kind of a one-time boost in revenue. And that's

what we're doing is we're changing your kout TV calculation.

>> Yeah, I love it. Hey, Michael. Oh, well,

actually want to say hi to a few people.

Joe, I I'll get to your question. Can we

chat about the apparent app store algorithm change that hit on December 1st? I've got some insights on that,

1st? I've got some insights on that, Joe, but I'll kind of get to that. Luis,

how do you how you doing? I got Chelse uh Mr. All right, I'm not even gonna say what's up. What's up, Matt? VJ, merry

what's up. What's up, Matt? VJ, merry

Christmas. As if we're in the holiday season here. What's up, fam? Hello from

season here. What's up, fam? Hello from

Pakistan. Got Sam here and Kev. Gotta

say hi to Kev. And then got to say hi to Miguel as well. You changed your you changed your name, Miguel. Miguel AI.

All right. Hey, Michael. When's the best time to show up these offers? Is it

literally after they hit X on our payw wall or is it like I know on the website it looks like there's some push notifications like when's the best time to show these type of offers?

>> Yeah, we think about it as the best time is when the user has told you I'm gone, you know, Steve, I'm I'm done with your app. I don't want to pay you. It's over.

app. I don't want to pay you. It's over.

Right.

>> Okay.

>> So, we think of it as the breakup moment, right? But that's different um

moment, right? But that's different um in different apps. So, one breakup moment is I I did a trial.

>> I'm completely done. I have I don't want to pay anymore. I'm going to leave.

That's a great moment to say, "Hey, wait, come back. We're gonna give you, you know, three months free if you do a free Amazon Music trial or you you do a free um Paramount Plus tri," right? So,

that's a great moment. Another great

moment is um when if they're in a game, right, and it's like, "Hey, buy this power up to get to the next level." I

explore it and then I'm like, "Ah, $5 for a power up. I don't want to pay it."

When you click that X button, that's a great moment to say, "Actually, Steve, we want to give you that power up for free." just just try Disney Plus for for

free." just just try Disney Plus for for a month and you can get this power up.

You can get to the next level. So,

>> we we put the offers um we trigger them with the X button. And the X is whatever offer is like, hey, it's time to pay now. And whenever the user says X, I

now. And whenever the user says X, I don't want to pay. I'm done. That's a

really good moment. So, it could be for a power up. It could be, you know, you're trying to convert someone to a paid subscription. It could also be the

paid subscription. It could also be the cancellation moment.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. When I'm

>> when I'm leaving the app, I'm I'm saying, "Hey, like I canceled." Um

there's there's two ways people cancel.

You can cancel in the app and that's a great moment to say actually we want to give you a longer trial to see the value here. Why don't you do a free a free

here. Why don't you do a free a free trial of something else? Um free trial of Class Pass. You can do free classes for a month plus you you keep this app.

Or if they cancel in settings, we can trigger a push notification that says, "Hey Steve, come back to the app. We

want to give you the app for free actually." And when you come back to the

actually." And when you come back to the app, it says, "Steve, this is a way to to get the app for free. Try Class Pass for a month for free. Plus, you can keep this app for free for the next two

months. Um, and so many apps just let

months. Um, and so many apps just let people cancel in settings and they don't have any rebuttal. Like, I don't know if you've ever done that, but if you have an app and you just go to your settings and you cancel, a lot of times I get no

push notification, nothing from the app in that moment. That's that's a key moment. Like, you have to reach them

moment. Like, you have to reach them there, right? Like,

there, right? Like, >> if you're going to send an email two days later, they've already forgot about you. They've already moved on. Like, the

you. They've already moved on. Like, the

moment they cancel is a really really key moment you need to reach out. No,

you said it best, Michael. My my buddy of mine who's in our at founders community, he Massud, he he shared this example where he sent a push notification and he was just doing a discount right there, but he sent a push

notification when you activated trial and you canceled it because that's an event that Apple will tell you when somebody's done that within your app. So

immediately he'll send a push notification, save 25% off. And he was able to recover a a decent percentage.

You can see the revenue chart going. So

you can even do that if they don't buy that. obviously show an encore offer.

that. obviously show an encore offer.

>> Exactly. Yeah. We we think we love that, right? When when they say, "Hey, get 25%

right? When when they say, "Hey, get 25% off our app and then they say no to that." It's like, "Awesome. Get our app

that." It's like, "Awesome. Get our app for free." Yeah.

for free." Yeah.

>> Right. Um by by downloading Class Pass or Amazon Music, right? So, um we enable these tiered offers where it's like you can do your product at a discount first.

If that doesn't work, why not at that point? Like they're going to leave. They

point? Like they're going to leave. They

don't want your discount. Why not keep them in with an offer from another brand? There's nothing to lose at that

brand? There's nothing to lose at that point.

>> You know, we shared this strategy in the past too. Michael and I kind of have

past too. Michael and I kind of have visual because I love visuals. So, I'm

going to not a lot of apps are doing this, but you hard press to go to like let's say remove an app, right? This is

another area where I've seen other apps do hey before you delete do an offer.

You know, you do like 25% off right here or you can be like, hey, get the access for it for free. So, this is another avenue for you to incorporate Encore in here. get people because I believe you I

here. get people because I believe you I agree too, Michael. This is a warm lead.

They looked at your screenshot. This is

not like a a banner click. This is not an ad click. They downloaded your app.

Yes. You know, they went through your onboarding. So, they're a little bit

onboarding. So, they're a little bit invested and now it's like your opportunity to win them over. And your

analogy is perfect. I'm Asian. We never

let you go without at least getting the second or third nose, right? Like,

>> yeah, why not, right? That is [laughter] gone.

>> Yeah. We got a question from Sam. He's

like, "If we bombard a user with inapp offers, won't he churn more or won't he just charge churn?"

>> Yeah, I think it's a great question. And

that's the way we designed this was to avoid bombarding the user with a bunch of stuff. So,

of stuff. So, >> I'll say if Steve likes this app, you know, he wants to pay, he'll never see any of these offers. No one who's paying

and continuing to use ever even knows these offers exist. The only time these offers are triggered is when Steve said, "Mike, I am done paying you for your app. I'm going to leave forever." At

app. I'm going to leave forever." At

that point, it's like, "Okay, well, can we do some sort of deal? Can we use these offers as a way to keep you?" Um,

and so there's no like distracting stuff that affects your in-game experience. If

you don't want the offers, we we say just click X and and you're gone forever, right? No harm, no foul. But

forever, right? No harm, no foul. But

it's only at the moment you've already decided to leave forever that you'll ever see these. And these are exclusive discounts that aren't available anywhere else. So like to get one month of Class

else. So like to get one month of Class Pass for free. You can literally do any exercise class in the world for free for a month. That's not something Class Pass

a month. That's not something Class Pass is offering. It's it's sort of just

is offering. It's it's sort of just within our app ecosystem. And we have a bunch of other really insane discounts like that. So a lot of users are like,

like that. So a lot of users are like, "Wow, this actually is really cool. It's

free. If I don't like it, like no harm, no foul." And you know, that's pretty

no foul." And you know, that's pretty compelling to people. It's not like just bombarding them with an ad that distracts them from an already good experience.

>> Yeah, I love Class Pass. I mean, the pandemic changed things, but before then, I was all about them because I would >> Yeah, I'm a huge I'm a huge user. I love

>> I love them, too. The congratulations.

That's a great get for you guys.

>> Yeah, we we have some really big ones from from Door Dash, Glass Pass, um Hulu, Disney Plus, Paramount, a bunch of the the biggest brands on earth have

done these exclusive deals with us.

That's amazing. Sam says, "Push notification. Which one? Inapp messaging

notification. Which one? Inapp messaging

or I don't know. This is too nerdy for me. FCM notification, Firebase

me. FCM notification, Firebase notification has like 1% opening." Do

you have a recommendation, Michael, or is this over your head too? [laughter]

>> Yeah, I think maybe it is a bit over my head, but what I would say is regardless of how you're sending the notification on the back end, to us, timing matters, right? Yes.

right? Yes.

>> Yes. Push notifications have a, you know, bad open rate. Why is that, right?

is because I'm, you know, doing some work and I get a push notification from an app and I swipe it away. Right.

>> Yeah.

>> This is a push notification. At the

moment, I'm considering your app. Like,

I just canled in settings. One

millisecond later, I get a push notification. Your app is on my mind.

notification. Your app is on my mind.

So, I'm actually kind of interested in what you have to say. Like, maybe I was 50/50. I'm not sure if I should quit or

50/50. I'm not sure if I should quit or not. I was thinking about my experience.

not. I was thinking about my experience.

I was contemplating the app. I'm not

working. I'm not distracted. Your app is on my mind. And so these push notifications are going to have way higher open rates than just a standard push notification.

>> Yeah, I'll show you one Sam the This is Massude and he he shared this and he allowed me to share this. I always get permission. Okay, guys. Like if you're

permission. Okay, guys. Like if you're going to share something with always get permission from me, but come back and save. Open the app now and save 50% on

save. Open the app now and save 50% on your next suspicion. This offer is only available for a limited time. So act

fast. He's got this. Then obviously if you hit X on and Mike might Mike Mike Mike's saying telling you like hey go ahead and try to win them but if they can't they say no to this then go ahead and show them an offer from Class Pass

or something from Encore like Fairmont Plus I'm a subscriber you know like yeah like show an offer here but you can try to win them back. He's not saying you don't you don't have to show Encore right away. You can try to win them and

right away. You can try to win them and then if they say no to that like that's definitely a great moment. But Massud

only sends this if you cancel your trial and that's when he will just like you said it Mike the timing matters here.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. Love it man. Cool. All right. I

want to get into are you helping us Michael with like any of the timing aspects of it like when we install the SDK is it something that we'll have to trigger on our end?

>> Yeah. So um the um Apple already gives you that information like you can already do that trigger today. Um the

what we help is with the content of the trigger, right? Like giving those offers

trigger, right? Like giving those offers at, you know, at that moment. That's

kind of where our SDK helps. Um but

we're also very open to anyone who wants to integrate just having our developers get on a call. If if you're having trouble triggering um push notifications at the moment of when people go to

settings and um uninstall, we'd be happy to explain how to do that and how to show offers at that moment. So, you

know, our dev team is happy to be very hands-on with onboarding and help people with getting these notifications out at the right time to the right users.

>> And how does it work in terms of payment? And what have you like Okay,

payment? And what have you like Okay, I'll show you that. I won't give you a two-part question because that's bad etiquette from an interviewer, [laughter] Michael. But how do how do

[laughter] Michael. But how do how do developers actually get paid? So, I I signed up for Hulu and then you developer, Michael, you you're the developer. How do you get eventually

developer. How do you get eventually paid for that?

>> Yeah. So um we basically revenue share with the apps. So um they are so they say hey Steve you know try Hulu and you'll get a month free. Um someone

signs up for Hulu. Hulu pays us and we and we revenue share with the app and we send that to the to the app and we give them a dashboard of how much money they've made. So when you sign up with

they've made. So when you sign up with us it's $0 upfront. There's no harm in trying. You can shut it off if it's not

trying. You can shut it off if it's not working for whatever reason. and you

just get a dashboard of how much money you're making and it just goes up every day. Um there's no cost and we revenue

day. Um there's no cost and we revenue share on the the money that we make from brands because we have those relationships with Hulu, Paramount, Door Dash, those types of people. Um

but there's two revenue streams that that apps are getting. One is from these brands like Paramount is like thank you for a new customer. Um here's some money. But the second is these people

money. But the second is these people who are coming back to the app and maybe going to resubscribe later. So, you

know, you decided to do a three-month extended trial. You were going to leave

extended trial. You were going to leave forever, but you decided to do it because you liked the Class Pass offer.

And then maybe 3 months later, you're like, you know what? This has actually been a really good experience. I want to subscribe. And apps keep 100% of that

subscribe. And apps keep 100% of that that revenue, the sort of resubscription revenue.

>> And that can be, you know, you could be a customer for years for them, right?

Like maybe they've, you know, taught you that the product's amazing and kept you as a lifelong customer. So, we we see that as a kind of even more important revenue stream than what you're getting from brands. It's it's this two-pronged

from brands. It's it's this two-pronged revenue strategy.

>> You know, I love it, too, because what we've seen work on our end is the like a lower price offer, too. Like one of our clients, they're they'll do weekly is

the main one that people buy, but they on the third open, you know, people are coming back. They're liking your

coming back. They're liking your product, you know, >> but they're still reluctant to pay.

We've seen like giving them a a low discounted offer. So, like 99 cents for

discounted offer. So, like 99 cents for the first week that renews at the normal week or I'm starting to see I won't share this one. I'll share that privately, but I'm starting to see other

apps do something similar in that realm where they'll give a a discount on a little offer like a small it's like and then it's it's something that is already

done in like the digital course creation space where they'll say, "Hey, download this PDF, you know, 100 idea 100 app ideas to generate one $1,000 a month and then it's like a $10 PDF and they'll try

to upsell you, right?" And so I love this type of stuff and this is exactly that.

>> Yeah. And you can program different flows. So you you could say, okay, these

flows. So you you could say, okay, these users maybe are a bit, you know, less willing to pay a lot. They already said no. So in three months after the

no. So in three months after the extended trial is up, we could have sort of a lower teaser rate or just a lower overall rate, right? Like you can treat this group, you know, as sort of this on

the fence group and adjust your pricing accordingly. And that's part of what we

accordingly. And that's part of what we enable is you to instead of just having like a one-sizefits-all strategy, having a very coherent plan about what to do with these people who decided to churn,

right? Like what how do we win them

right? Like what how do we win them back? Is it a win back offer from us? Is

back? Is it a win back offer from us? Is

it an offer from another brand? When

they're back in the app, how do we structure when to um give them that long-term offer? Right? It doesn't have

long-term offer? Right? It doesn't have to be at the end of the trial. So, it

could be that, you know, you've gone back for a three-month extended trial.

Maybe I see that in the app you're having a great session. You're you spent an hour in the app today.

>> Yeah, >> that's a great moment to say, "We have a special teaser rate for you, Steve.

You're a power user. We're gonna give you, you know, a really low rate for for the year, right?"

>> Yeah.

>> And that's a really smart strategy because it's in the moment that you're having a great experience. Why wait

until three months? Three months you might have kind of forgot about the app completely and be over it, right? You

never know. Um, and so we're really advising app owners to devise flows that are personalized, right? That that take into account when someone is thinking about your app and loving your app and

to meet them in that moment instead of having this sort of one-sizefits-all.

You've reached the three-month threshold. Like to us, that's not the

threshold. Like to us, that's not the smartest strategy.

>> I'm more of the the camp that says just give it to them. like long as it makes sense like you you know you're not going to lose money on this person like and if you're making just a dollar from this

person like I'm okay with it like just keep them in here because your ultimate goal is to increase retention hopefully helps ASO helps everything else like and so like have you found like what's the

optimal plan is it like three months one month in exchange for grabbing a Hulu offer or Disney Plus offer like what's the best way to give what should we give

the end users >> yeah I three months is really good.

>> Um, and just the reason is because it gives them that flexibility of when they can you want to wait for them to have that magical moment with your app. Every

app has, >> if you talk to any app developer, it's like if they've done these four things in the app, they're going to stay for a really long time. If they haven't, they're very sort of finicky, right? And

almost every app has that, there's some threshold they have to meet, right? And

so you want to be really confident they've met that threshold before you make them a longer offer. They've

they're already sort of finicky. They're

on they're on the fence. Make sure they have the time to reach that threshold experience that's going to make them want to pay you.

>> And then our view is within that three-month period, when they've reached that threshold and you feel like, okay, Steve has, yeah, maybe it's only been two days since we gave the three-month offer, but he's done the things that we

know are associated with loving this app, right? He's created a full account.

app, right? He's created a full account.

He's, you know, upleveled three times in the game. He's he's done whatever it is

the game. He's he's done whatever it is that we know is associated with retention.

>> It doesn't matter if it's been two days in. You can say, "Hey, Steve, we want to

in. You can say, "Hey, Steve, we want to keep you around for the rest of the year. How about this insanely low

year. How about this insanely low renewal rate for the whole year, right?

You can do that. You don't have to wait." But the three months just gives

wait." But the three months just gives you that maximum flexibility so that you can maximize the odds that that Steve's going to reach that threshold moment.

>> Yeah. You know, Michael, I was thinking like I think I signed up for like Paramount Plus or Hulu because it was like, you know, for the first three months it's only $5, you know, something ridiculous like that. And that's what I was talking about. Like these type of

offers do really work well. And I love the three month because you said it too.

And I was like, you know, I was just thinking like >> three months is the nice time frame. It

feels like it's not a huge commit. I

have a lot of time to really think through it. Like one month feels short.

through it. Like one month feels short.

One week definitely feels a lot shorter, but 3 months like this is a great offer.

like you know like why not five bucks for three months. Okay% usually I stay on [laughter] like after >> and I and I always tell app developers you it's not like one bite at the apple

right if Steve is staying around he's using my app even if he's paying me $1.

There's other things I could do, right?

I could throw ads at Steve, right, and monetize that way. I could try and get Steve to tell his friends about it. You

know, I could have sort of a viral camp.

There's all sorts of things I can do if I have users, right? If you have users, you have options.

>> Yes.

>> Right. If the user has gone and is just, you know, completely inactive and doesn't care about your app. Like, what

are you going to do with that? Right.

So, keep the user in the game. You know,

you can you can design a new feature that maybe maybe they kind of liked it before, but now with this new feature, they love it and they're they're retaining a lot and they're way more willing to pay. There's a lot that can change if you have someone regularly

using your app that you know there's so much you can do to monetize to improve the experience. Get feedback from them,

the experience. Get feedback from them, right? You can message them and say,

right? You can message them and say, "Hey, Steve, I get you don't want to pay. You've been using us a lot. What's

pay. You've been using us a lot. What's

some feedback? What's the next feature you could build?" Maybe you get a really good insight from that user there.

There's so much value from someone who is using the app even if they're not paying a lot. It just feels really, you know, not smart to let all these people

just just go, right? And to not do any sort of deal with them.

>> 100%. I love that. Mike, you get a point. Okay. All right. [laughter]

point. Okay. All right. [laughter]

You hear that? Tough. All right. The the

other thing I want to ask you is like how do we know like how does I know the SDK will tell us but like how does how difficult it is is it to one know that

somebody signed up for a class pass. So

how how quick do we get to know that?

And then how easy is it for us to integrate that? Hey Steve signed up for

integrate that? Hey Steve signed up for class pass. Now give Steve three months

class pass. Now give Steve three months of premium access.

>> Yeah. Um maybe this is a good time to show how it works. Um, yeah, I totally forgot about that. [laughter]

>> This is uh I think that that helps when you have a visual. It can sound really complicated, but when you have a visual, it's actually super simple.

>> Um, this is one of our first clients.

It's a head. It's an AI therapy app with millions.

>> Are you showing your screen, Michael?

>> Um, I I haven't. Um,

>> okay. Just making sure. All right.

>> Um, >> let me know.

>> Let's see if Can you see my screen?

>> Yes, I'm going to bring it up.

>> Um, >> are you ready for me to bring it up?

Uh, >> nothing is visible.

>> Give me one second.

>> Okay, I can see part of your screen already. So, you let me know.

already. So, you let me know.

>> Um, okay. I think this is a great time.

okay. I think this is a great time.

>> Yeah, you want to do that?

>> Yeah, >> I see the background of your website.

Yeah, here we go.

>> Um, okay. So, this is ahead. Um, and

basically this is a situation where I've I've used the app. It's an AI therapist.

you talk to the AI about your problems. >> Mhm.

>> And I've used it for seven days and now I get to this screen where they say basically you have to pay if you want to keep doing that. Right. So, um this is this is their payw wall. Um pretty

standard. And where we're triggered is um if I click this button right here, so this back button indicating I don't want to do a free trial. I don't want to do anything. I'm gone forever. So if you

anything. I'm gone forever. So if you don't click this button, you'll never see our offers. just, you know, go ahead do the free trial pay. Great. Um, we

love that. If you if you're like, "Look, I'm done. I don't want to do anything

I'm done. I don't want to do anything with you." That's when you click this

with you." That's when you click this button. And keep in mind, at this point,

button. And keep in mind, at this point, they're blocked by this payw wall. If

they come back to the app, it's this payw wall again that they already decided they don't want to do.

>> Yeah.

>> And so, it's kind of an impass moment.

And what we do is we say, "Okay, if you click this button, our SDK is triggered." Um, and we say, "Why don't

triggered." Um, and we say, "Why don't you just get three months of ahead for free? How about that? Um, download

free? How about that? Um, download

Capital One. Uh, you'll get $10 in rewards instantly. Plus, you get

rewards instantly. Plus, you get discounts on all this other stuff when you shop. It's free and you get three

you shop. It's free and you get three months of Ahead. Maybe that doesn't resonate. You click next offer. Um, AED

resonate. You click next offer. Um, AED

is a AI therapist. We have a real therapist, BetterHelp. Um, you get $50

therapist, BetterHelp. Um, you get $50 off your first month of real therapy plus three months of AI therapy. And to

give you a sense of how much these these things pay, BetterHelp is paying um over $200 per signup here. So it could be a

user that was making you $0 and now all of a sudden you're making $200 on this user plus you get a chance to re-engage them in a few months. So a lot of these offers are extremely lucrative. Um

Paramount Plus try a Paramount Plus free trial and get three months of ahead. And

I'm going to go claim this. The reason

why I want to show this is we keep you in the app. So, if you look at what happened, there's a little Safari portal that goes up. Um, the app is right here.

You haven't left the app experience.

That's really important to us. And I'm

going to sign up completely without leaving the app. I can sign up for this offer. Once we get the sign up, we're

offer. Once we get the sign up, we're going to verify with our end on Paramount to say, "Okay, is this a legitimate signup that you're going to pay us for?" That ping can take a few seconds. Um, it's very fast. and they're

seconds. Um, it's very fast. and they're

gonna say, "Yes, Steve legitimately signed up." Um, and we're gonna pay you.

signed up." Um, and we're gonna pay you.

And then we say, "Great. We're

activating um the your free trial and now you get your three months of ahead and you can talk to the AI. Um, you're

all set. You can go and and chat." And

so pretty pretty simple um experience.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh I hope that answers maybe the question about like how do we do that verification step?

>> Yes. um because it's it it's sort of a backend thing that that we do um by pinging Paramount or um Uber or whatever the brand is. Um and we can make that

verification very quickly and get you right back into the experience of chatting with the AI or of playing the game. We don't want this to be something

game. We don't want this to be something there's been a lot of things in the app world where it's like, hey, leave and download this completely other app and it's like well when are they coming back to your app, right? They're they're now interested in a completely different

app. They've left your flow completely.

app. They've left your flow completely.

That's not what we believe in. We

believe in, you know, great offers that people love, but we want to get you right back to that app experience as soon as possible. We think the second after you accept an offer, you should be back playing the game or chatting with

the AI or doing whatever your app does.

>> Um, and that's kind of what we think is magical about our flow.

>> Yeah, I love that. Especially for games because they they're relying on ads, Michael, and then you're like, you see an ad, you're like, "Oh, cool. I want to get this app." And then you leave the app. You leave the your the game that

app. You leave the your the game that I'm playing to then download this other new app and then possibly play this game. So now you've actually Yes, I

game. So now you've actually Yes, I might come back because I love the game, but al obviously like you lose that person as well. I love that.

>> Yes, 100%. And keeping someone in that flow state in your app is so important, right?

>> What I loved about the demo too was it was a subscription still. So, I was able that's what I was curious about like how do I unlock it and it's still an Apple subscription now with a threemonth free >> and that renews at the yearly or

whatever you want to set it up as but now it's so like if they don't cancel within 3 months you've got a new subscriber.

>> Exactly. That's what we did with ahead is is um and that was really important to them was this three-month extended trial is something they have to double click on Apple for. Um it's something

they have to um still go through like a regular Apple subscription. It does

renew automatically. So, um, you know, that's a really positive thing for app developers is if you just give someone, hey, I'm going

to give you, you know, three months free. There's a sense in which it

free. There's a sense in which it doesn't feel as good as like I signed up for this special offer. I earned the right to this special thing, >> right? It almost feels like more

>> right? It almost feels like more compelling more compelling that like you found this sort of like secret path to keeping ahead and you don't want to give up this like special thing you earned by

signing up for this other offer, right?

So, um it we've turned sort of these like win back offers into these things that feel like the consumer really like won, right? Like, wow, I got this

won, right? Like, wow, I got this Paramount Plus thing that doesn't even exist anywhere else. This free trial ahead has given me all these months for free, right? you you feel like you want

free, right? you you feel like you want as a consumer. And that's what we want to create. We want that feeling, right?

to create. We want that feeling, right?

Like not like I'm being bombarded by ads, but like there's this secret path that I discovered about how to keep this app.

>> Yeah. And you still made money for that three months. Yes.

three months. Yes.

>> You gave away for free.

>> Exactly.

>> I love it. Sam's got a great suggestion.

Shouldn't we try to show an offer that come back tomorrow and mysterious or something that says, "Hey, come back tomorrow, you get 80% off, 50% off." Do

you think it's better or just do it today? You know,

today? You know, >> I I I love that concept to us. And this goes back to like what I

to us. And this goes back to like what I was saying when we think about monetization. It's not like you have one

monetization. It's not like you have one chance right?

>> What I would do is I would keep Steve as a subscriber, keep him in the in my app ecosystem with the best offer that we can target at him. And after he did that, why not say, "Steve, you like that

offer from Paramount? Why not come back tomorrow? We're going to give you a

tomorrow? We're going to give you a mystery offer. It's not going to be

mystery offer. It's not going to be available anywhere else. is going to be exclusive and um you know we're gonna make it available for one hour between this time and this time >> right come back and see what it is and

it's and it's gone forever if you don't come in this time frame like we and then if they take that offer you make even more money right so you can do that every day so these offers are things you

can play with and design games around and um you know we we have like um other apps that want to put these offers into their email list as well so they can monetize their email

Um, these offers are flexible tools for monetization, for making your customers feel really special and happy. And

there's tons of ways you can get it, but to us, not letting the customer leave at that moment is like priority number one, two, and three, right? Because you're

not going to be able to do anything if this guy is left forever. You know, like one, you know, like someone said earlier, people aren't responding to push notifications a lot of the time. If

you lose someone at that moment, a lot of times that person's lost forever, right? So that's what we want to avoid

right? So that's what we want to avoid first of all. And then we can use these offers to we can send them emails. We

can send them texts. We can design games to, you know, show them different offers. We can do, you know, timed

offers. We can do, you know, timed offers. Things like that. There's

offers. Things like that. There's

there's all sorts of things you can do.

But first and foremost, keep this person using your app.

>> Yeah. I'm going to ask New York Times games. My wife wants to play the

games. My wife wants to play the crossword stuff to add Encore into the game section. Yes. That my wife,

game section. Yes. That my wife, [laughter] we love those.

>> We're put that in the universe. All

right Michael.

I love it. All right, Michael. The

anything I miss before we get into the app audit side.

>> No, this was amazing.

>> Yeah. No, thank you, Sam, to for all your great suggestions. And Karan is here. What's up, Karan? Good to see you.

here. What's up, Karan? Good to see you.

All right, Michael. Well, before we start, okay, actually, you know what?

Let's do the what I normally do. All

right, let's get into the app audits and we're going to take a look at some apps and give you some feedback. But before

we do that, we're going to tell some dad jokes.

>> [music] >> All right, Michael, you're the guest.

You get >> Okay, I got one. Um, why did the scarecrow win an award?

>> Why?

>> Because he was outstanding in his field.

>> I like it. All right, I've got one. All

right, this is so dumb. All right, here we go. Michael, have you ever seen an

we go. Michael, have you ever seen an alligator in a vest?

>> No. They're called investigators.

There you go.

>> All right. Put S if you thought my joke was better and put M if you thought Michael's joke was better and we're going to give you an extremely great offer from our Indie App Santa

product company. I mean, it's literally

product company. I mean, it's literally a company, but just all you got to do is vote. All right. And Michael, you and I

vote. All right. And Michael, you and I will play for something. Maybe coffee,

drinks. Loser pays for drinks. How about

that? Whatever kind of drink. All right.

Cool. Let's get into Oh, and if you want your app featured in a or audited in a future live stream, just go to appmasters.com

appmasters.comit.

appmasters.comit.

Okay, let's get into Okay, Tuku, I think it's the name. It's a Turkish name. You

can see. All right, he wants help on I would really love to hear your feedback.

Okay. All right. We're just going to do it all. All right, Michael. Here's his

it all. All right, Michael. Here's his

app. I love that it's Christmas theme on the screenshots. But what are you seeing

the screenshots. But what are you seeing from the screenshots, Michael, that you can give them? It's it's a for those who are just listening, it's an it's a chatbot, AI chatbot, just like chat GBT.

Ask a chat.

>> Yeah. I would say what you want with with screenshots here is um like I see like the first image, a lot of the text isn't readable like in

the in the gray. Like it'd be better to have one like message that shows the type of message you want people to to bring to this conversation, right? Like

there there are tons of AI chat bots.

Like what's the type of conversation this chatbot thrives at? Like showing,

you know, in really big text like this conversation about that topic, right?

Like um to me that makes sense. It seems

like there's a lot of like the second screenshot says get help on any task. I

would almost love for him to just pick one of these to start with or maybe play with one of these every week and see what has better conversion on the app store, right? Like if he just says

store, right? Like if he just says relationships or just says personal development, >> it's tough for people to conceive of like, okay, this is a better overall chatbot than Gemini or Chatbt. But if

you pick one section and you have a very funny, entertaining approach to it, um, and you really show that visually on the app store, I think that could boost conversion. Yeah, I love that. I mean,

conversion. Yeah, I love that. I mean,

we've we that's my you know, we have an app ourselves about this, guys. I want a lot of votes. So, I'm going to give you something extra. So, you you can pick

something extra. So, you you can pick whether it's Indie App Santa promo or you a H. I'm thinking on the fly, maybe three months access to App Founders, our App Founders community, right? You get

to pick and choose. So, all you got to do is put SRM. Literally, you don't even need to know if my joke was even funnier. You just got to put one of

funnier. You just got to put one of those letters. Okay, Michael. But what

those letters. Okay, Michael. But what

even our apps, we have an AI app that's more like it's chatgpt, you know, it has that, but it's specific. It allows you to do one thing and one thing really well. And I love what you said and we've

well. And I love what you said and we've been able to grow another type of app in this category to like above six, you know, it's a six-f figureure app right now on a ARR basis, but through just

really being more of a niche AI app versus just a like you said competing with Gemini, JT GBT, all these other really big AI companies. So, I love that. That's what I would do. I mean,

that. That's what I would do. I mean,

that's the feedback. Go ahead. All

right, let's get into the app.

[laughter] We'll give him some feedback on some win back offers and some churn users. How about that? All right.

users. How about that? All right.

Hope the for the first time allow AI powered. Yeah, right here. Text

generation. That's an easy one. You

know, essay writer, image generator, you're trying to do, you know, I feel like with these like especially with these indie developers who might not have a lot of budget for marketing, like be more niche. Like just try to get very

niche in this >> or help us grow. Let me see if you pop up. I'll give it to you, bro.

up. I'll give it to you, bro.

Oh, no payw wall. You got to add that payw wall on the onboarding.

Tuku, you got to this has to be on there. It will double conversions

there. It will double conversions guaranteed. Look, you're not chat GBT.

guaranteed. Look, you're not chat GBT.

You know, ChatGBT can like I'm a subscriber for chat GBT, but obviously I was using it for free for a long time.

You're not that. So, I would show the payw wall right on the jump.

What do you got, Mike? And I I'm going to pull up a slide for our payw wall that worked really well.

>> Yeah. Again,

>> um I would try and show in that onboarding one example of a flow that's really magical, right? like um instead of saying okay we can do image generation we can do text generation

everyone knows a lot of AI apps can like I I would show you know like a flow of like put in your photo and like we'll make you look really cool in all these

ways like something like this maybe and then just like try and get them to do that behavior right if that's the magical feature then be like upload a selfie of you now um and then it's like

hey we've here's three of the photos we made there's six others that also look really Cool. Unlock by subscribing,

really Cool. Unlock by subscribing, right? And then it's a then it's

right? And then it's a then it's personal why you'd want to subscribe.

You've already sort of seen a bit that's really cool. You've seen some value.

really cool. You've seen some value.

You've gone through some effort of uploading a selfie. It makes sense to subscribe at that point.

>> I love it. Hey, here. So, I'm just going to tell us tell you guys our app. So,

it's called Paraphrase AI and you know, we tested out different payw walls. We

found that this payw wall was working the best. And so I know you're promoting

the best. And so I know you're promoting the monthly as the default, but what we found is this payw wall with the weekly, a lot of these AI apps and these chat bots have this type of payw wall, this

beam. We saw this convert the best. And

beam. We saw this convert the best. And

so just to give you some context, I won't go through the video, but watch my MAU video. It kind of breaks down

MAU video. It kind of breaks down everything here, but you hit free trial enabled and then you get the weekly offer with the 3-day trial. If you hit unabled, it's the yearly offer. And so

what we found, Mike, was that even this one where they had the 7-day free trial on the yearly, we actually made more money when we on the yearly when we did not have a trial by just moving to this

payw wall. And that was the spoiler

payw wall. And that was the spoiler alert, that was the point of this whole entire thing. But anyways, I would

entire thing. But anyways, I would weekly tends to do well with these type of apps. And I know you're not chat GBT

of apps. And I know you're not chat GBT where I know you're like, "Chatbt charges monthly, whatever." I was like, "No, no, dude. You're not them. This

this works pretty well for AI apps.

Yeah, >> most BI apps. Okay. Uh, anything else you want to talk about here? But there

there's another opportunity for winbacks. Let me see what if he's doing

winbacks. Let me see what if he's doing anything here. Yeah. See, here you go.

anything here. Yeah. See, here you go.

He's got a lot of stuff. Let's see what Give it a second shot. Let's see what that happens. I'm like

that happens. I'm like Oh, nothing. Oh, man. That's an

Oh, nothing. Oh, man. That's an

opportunity.

>> Yeah, that's a good opportunity, right?

>> Yeah, it's good messaging. I like the messaging. It's got a store feature,

messaging. It's got a store feature, too. Let's see what's in the store.

too. Let's see what's in the store.

Okay. It's just the things I can do it looks like. But here, comic book. There

looks like. But here, comic book. There

you go. Like make a comic book app. Like

get >> into a comic book character, right? Like

just that could be >> Yeah, totally. This is it.

>> I love it. Okay. All right. I see H is ready. H, did you get Sam? Because Sam's

ready. H, did you get Sam? Because Sam's

got a great joke. As for today, Steve is the winner because joke is related to investment. See what you did there. Good

investment. See what you did there. Good

one. Damn. All right, H. Come on. We're

gonna pick a winner. Okay. What's Who

won? I already know the score. I can see it. Go ahead, H. You tell them. You tell

it. Go ahead, H. You tell them. You tell

you tell them the bad.

>> Okay. So, the score is on five on two.

Five on one. And the winner is Steve.

>> Sorry, Michael. You did get two. Sorry.

Here you got Davidid. And then we got PJ. I gave you.

Davidid. And then we got PJ. I gave you.

All right. H spin that wheel.

>> And >> nice >> techno.

>> I was hoping for Joe. I was hoping for Joe. Joe, just email me. I'm gonna You

Joe. Joe, just email me. I'm gonna You get to choose Indie App Santa promo or, you know, three months of free access to our app founders community. We just had a hangout earlier today. Really

phenomenal community. And so we'll give you you get to pick and choose which one you want access to and then we'll get you in there. Can't have both, just one or the other. All right. Only if you

sign up for class first. [laughter]

>> All right. Let's get into Brandon's app, Mike, and then we'll get we'll let you go. Thank you for being here. All right.

go. Thank you for being here. All right.

He's got a fitness app right here for challenges and wants I like I like you to focus on the product page. I believe that the app itself can be a bit difficult to explain

and I like to get my conversion up. Gave

me a promo code that I can check out.

Okay. So, Brendan, I don't really look at the conversion rate. Okay. And I'll

tell you why and I could probably create a video out of this. So, we got a couple of different and I'm assuming the conversion rate within App Store Connect, you're looking at downloads over impressions, right? We got one

client making $500,000 a month. I've got

all the screenshots. I just need to put it into a nice little presentation.

Their conversion rate is horrible. Okay,

that's because they rank really high for a lot of specific keywords, right? Like

generic keywords. So, people are just probably sifting through when you're ranking well for generic keywords. We

got another client making about $200,000 a month and they've got an extremely high conversion rate. I think it's like 30% 20 to 30%. Why? It's because they're relying on Meta. And so, obviously,

they're driving traffic that are catered to that that product. and they don't rank really well for a lot of terms besides their branded terms. So, that's the difference and that's why I don't

look at that conversion rate that much because it just doesn't matter as much.

It depends on the channel that is that you're relying on the $500,000 client ASO all organic. Yes. The other client all meta and I have all the screenshots

for you to prove it, but that's what I so I wouldn't focus on that as well.

anything you want to talk about?

>> Yeah, I would say um again like um one example pops a lot more than kind of these like

general um messages like this is about exercise challenges. Get daily exercise

challenges. Get daily exercise challenges.

>> Your challenges are randomly generated.

There's a lot of like explanation about how it works. It's like just give me one example like hey Steve like run one mile today and like I'll buy you coffee right like just that like one text and then

the text could be like you're on right and just those two big texts even if that's not exactly how your app works like that at least gets the concept across of like oh I see what's happening it's a way for me to like challenge my

friends on these exercise things >> and the exact UI and how it happens and whether they're randomly generated or not like you can find that out once you enter the app but I think here you want one example of like sort of a magical

experience that your app creates and you want very little text, very big images.

You want people to walk away from scanning this for one second and be like, "Okay, I kind of get what the concept of this is."

>> I love it. You know, and I think if he said, Brandon said, "I I have to explain it. It's kind of difficult to explain."

it. It's kind of difficult to explain."

Then do a video, right? That's where you your product is going to tell you where your distribution should be. And so I would just do a video then and do Tik Tok or it seems like it's catered to a

younger audience, Brendan. So yeah, do that. Otherwise, get niche and just like

that. Otherwise, get niche and just like what Mike said, like I know there are keyword volume for, let's say, push-ups, push-up challenge, right?

>> There's some volume towards that. So,

you can just get really niche into a a push-up challenge as well.

>> I love it.

>> Great suggestions here. Should we check out the app real quick?

>> Yeah, let's do it.

>> Let's do it.

Are you okay with from that loss, Michael, or you need a moment to like recover?

>> I'm I'm struggling a lot. [laughter]

I tend to >> All right. Make fitness fun and spontaneous. Daily exercise challenges

spontaneous. Daily exercise challenges come in at random. You have 1 hour to complete them. I like that. It seems

complete them. I like that. It seems

fun. Introduce yourself, Steve.

All right. What do you think, Michael?

Burpees. I hate burpees. Push-ups.

Plank. Yeah. I'm with you. Need

crunches, jumping jacks. I'm down for all those.

All right, good enough. Okay, cool.

Well, lifetime only $7. All right,

that's insane.

This is like a no-brainer for Encore. I

mean, $7 you're charging $8. You're just

going to increase your the amount of challenges playing for 30 seconds. Easy.

Okay. How do I finish? How do I say I did it? Maybe this little check mark

did it? Maybe this little check mark right here. What do you think, Michael?

right here. What do you think, Michael?

How do I say it?

>> The counter doesn't seem to be going down. Yeah.

down. Yeah.

>> Oh, yeah, it doesn't.

>> Um >> Oh, maybe this is by minutes. We'll just

have to wait.

>> Yeah, it's a little weird.

>> Yeah, it is that check mark.

>> I mean, it's an interesting app. I like

this idea.

Brendan, I really I like I do like this idea. It's interesting. Keeps it fun.

idea. It's interesting. Keeps it fun.

Keeps like, "Okay, let's go." type of thing. I like it. I would try to charge

thing. I like it. I would try to charge more though, for sure.

What do you What else do you have? Any

other feedback?

>> Yeah, I think the um like when it's playing for 30 seconds, it'd be nice if like there was a visual of someone doing a plank like almost like a video or like a >> so it felt like you were almost doing it

with someone or maybe like this number of people are planking right now. Like

so you're kind of doing it I know with exercise it helps to feel like you're not doing it alone right like >> even like little messages of like we got this like 15 seconds through like you

know that that come across or um like a AI character who's like you're almost there when you're you know >> yeah I love that I love that >> and then creating the time urgency like

I don't playing for 30 seconds it'd be nice if like you have 10 minutes to complete this challenge or you have and I see the clock ticking um if I just see it as checklist there and it's like, yeah, I mean, I could do it later. I

could do it now. It's not as exciting and it's tough to get me to playing for 30 seconds if there's not like this feeling of urgency. Um, I might not do it. So,

it. So, >> I love all those ideas. That That's

brilliant. And I I like the if I'm about to do it, I can I love the start button and the the timer and you encouraging me and then you can charge more. Brendan, I

would say add make sure you add the upgrade. Here's what I would personally

upgrade. Here's what I would personally to this pay wall. Instead of this no thanks right here, right next to the get, >> just move it up here. Just put an X right here.

>> Like that's you're making it so close for me to say no thanks >> right here. Sometimes, you know, I'll see this, Michael, where they'll move it to the left because everybody puts it on the right, so they put it to the left.

>> Right.

>> That's where my eye goes right away. I'm

like, where's this X? And so you put it to the left.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that.

>> Yeah. But any I love that idea. I think

that would be awesome. And the the the one hour, you can do it. One hour, hour, minutes, and seconds. We need that countdown. I like that countdown. Yeah.

countdown. I like that countdown. Yeah.

Yeah, I like that a lot.

>> Yeah. And this is a natural place for streaks, right? Like you you you missed

streaks, right? Like you you you missed a challenge, you your streak starts over, right? Like um some sort of

over, right? Like um some sort of leveling or streaks would be nice, right? If you if you hit every challenge

right? If you if you hit every challenge for the last 10 days, you kind of get some benefit or some pat on the back or um some award or something. I think with exercise, people like to feel like there's momentum. They're making

there's momentum. They're making progress. They're

progress. They're >> 100%, >> you know, getting there. So,

>> yeah. No, I love it. I I like the idea.

I like the idea. It's different. So,

Ren, good luck, man. But I think Tik Tok, Instagram, some organic. I think I can see that working out really well.

And more founder videos like, "Hey, I created this app because I wanted to make exercising fun and sporadic and random, not just like working out." And

so yeah, like I think it's pretty interesting.

Sweet. All right, Michael, that's it. Anything else you want to

that's it. Anything else you want to talk about with Encore?

>> No, I mean, I'm really uh grateful that you had me on and um >> thanks for integrating into Paraphrase as well. We're super excited to work

as well. We're super excited to work with you.

>> Um >> and to anyone listening, I would say >> there's literally no harm in trying this out on your payw wall, right? like we

can try it out for 1% of users, 10%, we we we have sort of automatic AB testing infrastructure. You tell us, hey, I want

infrastructure. You tell us, hey, I want to try this for 10% of new users or 1%.

And we can prove to you uh in a very short time that this is going to boost conversion, boost paid users, um improve retention, and at that point, it's going to be sort of no-brainer. Why not, you

know, if this is working for 10% of users, why not bring it to 100%. So, um

yeah, it's zero upfront cost. You can

try out with a small number of users.

You can just cancel anytime. You're not

going to want to cancel because it's just free money coming in, but you can stop it at any time. To us, there's no reason in at least experimenting with whether this could boost your unit economics.

>> Yeah, I love it. And what I implore and I was thinking as we're talking, I'm like, I should create a video for all these like fitness apps like that are very much so catered to January. It's

have a huge spike in January. Like you

guys should, this is a no-brainer for you guys. They're very motivated.

you guys. They're very motivated.

They're they're in the the game and giving them three months is perfect. And

so majority of people are going to say no. But Encore is perfect for all you

no. But Encore is perfect for all you guys where you see a huge spike in January like fitness apps. Go check it out. encorekit.com.

out. encorekit.com.

While we're on the topic, Brendan, charge more. Since you're here, charge

charge more. Since you're here, charge more. $8 seems like a you're in the

more. $8 seems like a you're in the fitness space. That's the one space

fitness space. That's the one space where you can charge a boatload of money. So, I would increase that price

money. So, I would increase that price to at least 20 bucks a year at the very least. The

least. The Chelshu Chelu. Chelu, just tell me your

Chelshu Chelu. Chelu, just tell me your real name so I can remember it. Okay.

Can you choose the offer shown?

>> Yeah, we give you a dashboard. You have

complete control over over what's shown.

>> That's awesome. Great. Thank you guys.

Thank you, Luis. Okay. You knew where ending. All right. [laughter]

ending. All right. [laughter]

All right. Okay. People are asking for the app. So, just go

the app. So, just go tofounders.co.founders.co.h

tofounders.co.founders.co.h

H is the main person. Thank you, H. Look

at you.

H is the main person behind it with me.

He and I are running this together, but it is a private Slack channel as well.

Oh. Oh, this is Frank. Oh, Frank. Okay,

Frank. All right. Frank's in the community as well. All right. I hope you don't say that. Once again, guys, it is encorekit.com. Encorekit.com. Let him

encorekit.com. Encorekit.com. Let him

know that you heard it on this very podcast, and I'm sure Michael will hook you up with some concierge service as well. Michael, thank you so much for

well. Michael, thank you so much for coming on and doing this.

>> Yeah, it was amazing. Thank you for having me.

>> Yeah, thanks for coming here. Next week,

guys, we're gonna do something a little bit different. Just bear with us. It's

bit different. Just bear with us. It's

gonna be a live coaching call with me, but it's going to be pre-recorded because the the guest is on in Australia, but I'll be there. So, I will be showing up live to answer any of your questions, but we're going to play that

recording and then answer all your questions in between. All right. Once

again, thank you, Michael. Oncorkit.com

and then I'll see you next week.

Michael, any last words? Thank you so much. This was great.

much. This was great.

>> What I want to say is thank you for choosing me over your mom. I saw she called during her [laughter] presentation.

>> That's right. I was thinking about taking that, but I decided this is more important.

>> This is more important. Thank you.

Sorry, mom. [laughter]

All right, guys. I'll see you next week.

Have a great weekend. Bye.