PANEL DISCUSSION: Ben Shapiro, Don Lemon, and David Pakman Debate the Future of News | AC1G

make sure you're awake. [applause]

It's helping me as well. Thank you so much. Right, we've got really an amazing

much. Right, we've got really an amazing lineup this afternoon. We're going to have a good time. First up, uh we have the future of news. How creators and

influencers are reshaping journalism. Of

course, we know the future of news is not just being shaped by journalists, but by these creators and influencers who really command massive audiences.

They they set the agenda. They do things that traditional media, you know, sometimes struggles to do, but it does all raise new questions about accountability and about trust. This

panel is all about that. So, without

further ado, I'd like to welcome to the stage the moderator uh from the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism, Director Matali Mccerji uh who will introduce the panel. Let's give them a

round of applause.

We got one. Wow.

>> Look at this.

>> I know.

Here we are.

>> It's so formal.

>> I know. Everybody's so like >> well behaved, >> right? And quiet. Hi everybody. Wow. How

>> right? And quiet. Hi everybody. Wow. How

are you guys? Everybody

>> that's my cue. [laughter]

>> Hi. Good evening. It's good to see a full house. Uh I'm Itali Mukajji. I'm

full house. Uh I'm Itali Mukajji. I'm

director of the Reuters Institute for Journalism, a part of the University of Oxford. It's a pleasure to see everyone

Oxford. It's a pleasure to see everyone here. It's been um a fantastic day. I

here. It's been um a fantastic day. I

think I've been sort of soaking in a lot of conversations around economics, business, finance, news, and I think where we come from as an institute is

that the core of what we focus on which we think is a critical component is the audience. Um, and some of our research

audience. Um, and some of our research over the past couple of years has been focusing on exactly what you're going to hear from these bright folks, which is what's happening in terms of a shift

amongst audiences towards what we call as a broad bracket news creators, but that tends to bring in a lot within it.

Um, so one of the things that we have been seeing over the last few years is that increasingly young audiences especially have been turning to spaces that are online. So primarily social

media platforms and turning to individuals rather than organizations which is uh news creators. They have um an impact on public de debate. They have

a large audience. They tend to have quite often clear political sides and our audiences do sort of identify with that. Um and this isn't a phenomenon

that. Um and this isn't a phenomenon that we're seeing worldwide but it is something that is beginning to grow in terms of its heft. So you certainly saw that in the pre-election campaign with Donald Trump and you are beginning to

see that in countries like France.

You're seeing it in other parts of uh global majority countries like India as well. So very very fascinating trends.

well. So very very fascinating trends.

That's what we're going to dive into over the course of the next very snappy 40 minutes. And I've got some um bright

40 minutes. And I've got some um bright stars here, some of whom did the introductions for themselves, but maybe I will give this a shot.

So please uh introduce with um a generous applause first and foremost FDMM founder Tala Palmieri, Daily Wire co-founder and the Ben Shapiro show host

Ben Shapiro, Lemon Media Network founder Don Lemon and the David Patman show host David Patman. Thank you very much

David Patman. Thank you very much [applause] all of you for joining in. So we're

going to make the best use of our time and let's start with a crunchy sort of context setting conversation for those who may not have come across your work.

Tara, maybe I'll start with you a little bit about sort of your journey to here, why you chose to because you are one of those who were sort of in the traditional news media space and then

shifted to going solo. Why you chose to do that and how you sort of differentiate or define the work that you're doing now versus what you were doing earlier. I would say that I am now

doing earlier. I would say that I am now chasing the audience because the audience is no longer watching television anymore. They are on their

television anymore. They are on their phones. They're watching YouTube.

phones. They're watching YouTube.

They're on Instagram. They're on TikTok.

And I started doing this a few years ago when I joined Puck. Um I was at Politico where I wrote a newsletter which was how people were getting their news and they still are. Um and then I made my way to

still are. Um and then I made my way to Puck and then I had a podcast with the Ringer there. And this just felt like

Ringer there. And this just felt like the next evolution to have a YouTube show um and to have a Substack when that is how so many people are getting their news and then creating reals and shorts

for X and you know Instagram and Tik Tok. And I felt that I could apply the

Tok. And I felt that I could apply the same rigor of investigative journalism analysis um just seeking the truth and

that being my my guiding force and light in this um rather than uh politics commentary, you know, identity. I really

feel like what I am seeking is the same thing that I did at a newsroom that like ABC News where I worked or Politico or the New York Post or the Washington Examiner. I just have I now have the

Examiner. I just have I now have the ability as an independent journalist to pursue the stories I want to without having to, you know, think about does this fit into the identity of a network

or is this something that my editors would like. uh I can just chase the

would like. uh I can just chase the stories that I've always wanted to and and you know have really anyone I want on to to interview and and pursue

accountability journalism and I think I've been doing this for 17 years so I understand standards of journalism and I understand how to break through with

real reporting and I'm just using creator platforms now and I'm using some of the >> tools that they have used and become so great that like the authenticity, the

showing of the process, talking through with the audience, creating a dialogue.

I see that that has really worked to rebuild trust. And I think why not do

rebuild trust. And I think why not do that with traditional journalism?

>> And what's the story arc, if you will?

>> I mean, the story arc is that um obviously I'm an opinion journalist. My

my opinion is very clear to people. I'm

openly conservative. I don't try to hide the ball on that. I don't pretend at objectivity. Uh, I try to separate

objectivity. Uh, I try to separate between what I think are the facts, which very often is relying on traditional news gathering sources, and then my opinion, which I'm drawing on, you know, my ideology or my my centralized values. Uh, I I've been

centralized values. Uh, I I've been doing this for quite a long time. I

started writing a syndicated column when I was 17. The Daily Wire launched about a decade ago in um my co-founder Jeremy Boring's Pool House with a couple of podcasts. Uh, obviously my podcast grew

podcasts. Uh, obviously my podcast grew to be quite large. Our company currently does $200 million a year in in revenue and is is quite a large conservative media company with a reporatorial contingent. We have some investigative

contingent. We have some investigative reporters. We have a White House

reporters. We have a White House reporter. Um but remains a largely

reporter. Um but remains a largely opinion-based outlet. And so our

opinion-based outlet. And so our audience understands who we are and and because of that they know that we're not hiding the ball. We're not trying to lie about you know where we are coming from.

The news is refracted through the prism of our values. And again I try to be very clear in my own show between what is fact and what is my opinion. Um, but

I think that that's part of the trust that I have with the audience.

>> Would it be fair to say you've moved on from the news creator to a standalone brand?

>> Uh, I think that that is is fair.

Although I think that the, you know, the silos there are probably a little bit overdrawn. I I don't know what it mean

overdrawn. I I don't know what it mean to be a news creator as opposed to standalone brand. I think you can be a

standalone brand. I think you can be a news creator within uh within the standalone brand or vice >> versa.

>> Don Lemon. Yes. The story. Lemon heads.

Is that is that what you encourage your followers? Yeah. The lemon head. Yeah.

followers? Yeah. The lemon head. Yeah.

Tell us the story.

>> So what what's the question? What do you >> what's the story of why you decided to transition away from mainstream media space like CNN?

>> Well, I got pushed out of mainstream media. [laughter] So,

media. [laughter] So, >> just as long as I'm not saying it and you are >> I think if but honestly, no, it's okay.

I mean, it's it's reality and I'm about that and and about truth. But I mean if you you know um one of my the CMO of my former company said you know that if you

open the you're a walking definition of um a blessing in disguise because I think I got out at the right time.

>> Uh and and I think I know that in the coming months in the coming years there are going to be people who will have to do they'll be forced to do uh what I'm doing. Now, I didn't have to do this,

doing. Now, I didn't have to do this, but I I still had more to say. But, um,

so I I what I'm doing is I'm going where the audience is, and the audience is right here on this device or on, you know, um, a tablet and less so on giant

televisions. Even though my audience,

televisions. Even though my audience, when I look at my analytics, most people watch me on television.

>> I think it's like 44% and there's like 42% who watch me on on a smartphone and then, you know, it goes on from there to tablets or whatever. But, I'm going where the audience is. And I think that

um people want personality now. They're not getting

personality now. They're not getting news from a brand or letters or whatever. They're coming for people who

whatever. They're coming for people who are authentic, people they trust, people they like, and they don't need the filter of a face full of makeup or a

cocktail dress or a suit and or hair that's over hairsprayed uh and a shiny desk and flashing. They want to get their information from people they like and trust without all the filters. And

so that's what I'm doing right now. I'm

just leaning. I don't even have a desk anymore because I don't want that between me and my audience. No barrier.

>> David, were you thrown out? Did you

write a newsletter when you >> I wasn't thrown out? No. Very different

path.

>> Wasn't quite thrown. I was like push.

[laughter] No, I I I I came more from the business world actually and I saw a lot of my MBA colleagues becoming bankers, financial adviserss, private equity people and

that did not appeal to me. So I was able to take a year and say I'm going to try to see if this could be a viable business and if it's not maybe I'll end up as a financial adviser after all. And

fortunately for for me that didn't happen. And I started early enough that

happen. And I started early enough that it's been interesting you talk about the desk. there's been this transition where

desk. there's been this transition where there are these um communicators of authority and credibility that have really changed over time because there was a point when I started where if it

didn't look like you were on a CNN set, there was an instant judgment from the audience that this is not credible. Uh

and that has really changed over time.

In fact, to the point where audiences like mine and and maybe some of yours, they see that kind of more traditional stayed look and they say, "This feels stuffy. I actually want something

stuffy. I actually want something different." Uh and I think that we've

different." Uh and I think that we've benefited from timing and and also technologically widespread high speed highsp speeded internet access and 95% reduction in the cost of the audiovisisual equipment that we used.

All of those things happened for me at an incredibly convenient time where I was able to to take a shot at this that would have been impossible 20 30 years ago.

>> My channel was stagnant when I started.

I started I rented this big studio in Midtown and spent all this money on cameras and lights or whatever. And so

it was fine, but it wasn't growing. And

I one day I said, "You know what? I'm

just going to sit in my living room in front of the fireplace and I'm going to do a show every day called Live at Five." It wasn't new. Anyone remember

Five." It wasn't new. Anyone remember

Sue Simmons and Chuck Scarboro back in the 80s, whatever 70s doing Live at Five. And that's when the audience

Five. And that's when the audience started to grow when I put on a sweatshirt and sat in front of my fireplace and just started talking not at them but kind of with them and taking

the comments and doing stories that they were interested in doing. And that's

when my channel started to grow.

>> Do you have a sense of the demographics of your audience mix? What does it look like?

>> Um my audience is heavily women ma mostly women. Um but probably it's about

mostly women. Um but probably it's about 60% women maybe even 70% women. The rest

the rest guys. The interesting thing is that people uh in traditional media, corporate media, they're constantly chasing the young demo.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is great because I do have a young demo, but the, you know, I guess a blessing for me is coming from cable news where the the demo is much older.

So now when we have like open enrollment for health care, they're looking for me.

Or in Medicare, they're looking for someone who has an older demographic. So

I just think right now is a boon and an opportunity for us. And I don't think it's an I and know it's not an opportunity for people who are in traditional corporate media.

>> Yeah. And I want to keep dipping into our research just to provide some perspective to this conversation which is that in the US as a market around a quarter of the audiences that we surveyed said that they turned to news

creators for the news which is almost equal to the number of people who said they turned to traditional news brands.

So very much neck and neck in the US as a market. Uh and that still puts it in

a market. Uh and that still puts it in the middle of the range. There are

markets where news creators have sort of outpaced and of course there are markets where uh news creators still remain far behind from traditional news brands. But

Ben, let me ask you this. If you were to drill it down to what you think is the USB of what what you present and what's resonating with your audience, what would you point to?

>> Um values authenticity. So I think that the the word authenticity has come up a lot and obviously I think that is the correct word. The the problem with

correct word. The the problem with authenticity is that it is not really a substitute for credibility. meaning

there are lots and lots of people on the internet who are authentic and who are absolutely noncredible and spew all the time for for lack of a better word. Uh and their authenticity can be

word. Uh and their authenticity can be pure. I mean absolutely pure. They

pure. I mean absolutely pure. They

absolutely believe the that they're spewing at any given time. And

so if an audience links up with that, they're going to get a bunch of bad information. And so actually I think

information. And so actually I think that the sort of moral duty of people in our space is actually higher than maybe it would be in a system that has more checks and balances like a major news network uh or some sort of outlet. And

so something that I personally try to take very seriously is the idea that I do have an audience. I'm speaking to them. It's my job to make them smarter,

them. It's my job to make them smarter, not stupider. It's my job to provide

not stupider. It's my job to provide them with some level of context and knowledge and not just to say the things that may affirm their world view even if it feels good to them and feels good to

me and may even in fact be helpful to the numbers to sort of just reaffirm whatever the viewer wants to hear. How

do you construct that um that firewall if you will of what sort of the the rules of the game are or what the moral rules are and are you transparent about communicating that to the audiences? Is

that something you sort of work at?

>> I mean sure. I mean I my audience I think has known me for for a while.

Again I'd be sort of the the legacy side of the new media because my company is now a decade old which means it's actually one of the older new media companies in many ways. Um, because of that, I think that, as I said, my

broadcasting and and my coverage is refracted through a set of values. I I

prize my values more than I prize political victory. Uh, and so what that

political victory. Uh, and so what that means is that I'm willing to call out my own side when I feel that that's necessary. I obviously am conservative.

necessary. I obviously am conservative.

It means I'm be more critical of people who are on the left because I disagree with their ideas more.

I think that what my audience expects from me and would be disappointed in me if if I did not do is speak the truth even when it applied to figures who are

purportedly on quote unquote our side.

>> Uh talk to us a little bit about the platforms and this video storytelling which happens even in sort of very audio native formats. It's still streaming

native formats. It's still streaming live on YouTube while you're doing a podcast. Um was that an interesting

podcast. Um was that an interesting shift to make? Why do you think there is the need to do that to sort of play to both tracks while speaking to the audience?

>> I think Terra's streaming now, aren't you?

>> I am streaming. I I am streaming right now. Yeah. I think

now. Yeah. I think

>> one >> wave. I I mean, if you're already

>> wave. I I mean, if you're already recording a podcast, why wouldn't you just put the video on? People don't

really demand, like Don said, the higher quality um in terms of I mean, I do it out of my house as well. I actually got the advice from Don, don't get a studio.

It's a waste of money. Um I have some lights. uh could pack them up in a car

lights. uh could pack them up in a car and you know you could do a traveling studio. I do think that the audience um

studio. I do think that the audience um it they they appreciate seeing you in your home. I mean I'll get notes about

your home. I mean I'll get notes about my plants and stuff like that, but um they see pictures of me of my journey through life behind me, my ancestors, my trips, my reporting journeys. Um I just

think it's a way to to get into your world. I mean, they're kind of buying

world. I mean, they're kind of buying into you whether you like it or not. Um,

and since I'm newer to the independent media world, uh, people are still getting to know me and sometimes I think like the audience can be disappointed if they think, oh, well, you know, you seem to be to too tough on someone who was on

the left or too tough on someone who was on the right and they're confused and and I think like the audience is trying to understand. I'm like, no, no, no, no,

to understand. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not here to to reaffirm your

no. I'm not here to to reaffirm your worldview, you know? I'm not here to feed you content that you want or only present facts that reaffirm your point of view. I'm just going to interview the

of view. I'm just going to interview the person in front of me the same way that I would no matter who they are. And

whatever the facts bring me, I will, you know, bring to you. And this is the problem. Like, you can chase an audience

problem. Like, you can chase an audience and you can tell them exactly what they want to hear, but is that is that ethical? I mean, not to me. If that was

ethical? I mean, not to me. If that was the only way that I could have a channel, then I wouldn't do it. But I

believe there are people out there that that do want information that is based in, you know, just actually traditional journalism, but without the corporate

hierarchy and all of the politics that you have to go to to just get a story actually published. I mean, I've worked

actually published. I mean, I've worked in news rooms before, some of the biggest news rooms in the world, it can be really hard and they are very timid when it comes to the facts. And

sometimes you just need to be able to say the facts and and you know the audiences they they'll they'll figure out if you're for them or they're not.

But last time I checked there are millions about what is it 200 million people on YouTube. They'll find you.

>> It's the largest TV network. It's no TV network.

>> I'd rather be there than on TV.

>> To to piggy [laughter] back on what Ben and Terara said about making a choice about authenticity, feeding the audience what they want, etc. I had kind of a tough moment with a part of my audience in the leadup to the last election where I think it must have been September or

something like that where I looked at the polling and I said, "Listen, um, we can kind of feel whatever we want about the way this is going, but the polling is worse for Kla Harris in the seven key swing states than it was for Biden in

2020. It's worse than it was for Hillary

2020. It's worse than it was for Hillary in 2016." This just object I'm just

in 2016." This just object I'm just doing, it's not even arithmetic. It's

just I'm looking at numbers and telling you what they are. And a very loud, but I think probably small uh uh slice of my audience said that we need positivity, that this is not what the moment calls

for. And it was a really interesting

for. And it was a really interesting moment because I could have just gone back to guys, this looks great. Get out

the it just it just wasn't what it was.

And depending on where you are in your career and and kind of like where your show is in terms of maturity, it could be very tempting to kind of go back to what's the easiest thing for your audience >> because everything is so immediate. If

you're if you're doing a YouTube show, I do a live show. When I started, no one wanted video. And I I I mean, I have it

wanted video. And I I I mean, I have it hasn't even been two years that I started about a year and a half, a little over a year and a half ago, and I was pitching my show around and no one wanted video. And then now everyone

wanted video. And then now everyone wants video. Now people are open to

wants video. Now people are open to live. People are doing lives. And before

live. People are doing lives. And before

it was like do, you know, taped content, it it monetizes better and you can, you know, edit it and it looks better. Now

people are open to live. So it's uh everything is evolving. So I just think that you have to adapt. And he's right.

During the election, I would go out because I wanted to hear what people were saying. And I didn't get to do that

were saying. And I didn't get to do that when I was sitting on a big shiny anchor desk unless they, you know, transported you into teleported you into a certain place. And so I went out to the swing

place. And so I went out to the swing states, um, battleground states, and just talked to people. And then I started getting calls from Fox News and Newsmax and, "Oh my gosh, you're getting a lot of Trump out there. You must be

really sad." I'm like, "No, I'm not.

really sad." I'm like, "No, I'm not.

It's it's a lot of Trump. people are

gonna saying they're voting for Trump in places and demographics that you didn't think would be saying that. And uh I got the same thing, Don, are you curating that? We don't want to hear that. And I

that? We don't want to hear that. And I

say, I'm sorry. I've got to give you the facts. So it you can be pressured into

facts. So it you can be pressured into having a bias towards just feeding people what they want, whether that's left or right, and you have to fight against that.

>> And in the short term, it's a hit, but in the long term, it's actually an asset, a recipe for Yeah. Because in the short term, the easy incentive is to go for the sugar high of giving the audience precisely what they want. But

you actually lose your authenticity. You

lose what you are when you do that.

>> Because after the election, people say, "Don, you you saw it. You called it.

They respect you for that." And they come back because they then they realize you're actually telling them the truth.

>> Yeah. Let me ask you this, David, and then I can get, you know, thoughts from all of you and you, Ben, specifically.

Um, one of the other things that we see in the US as a market is sort of the polarized nature of how people identified with some [clears throat] of the creators. So, if you were to draw

the creators. So, if you were to draw down a list between how people identified politically, they would name a wholly different list of 15 personalities, uh, if they were, you know, right leaning versus when they

were leftaning. Do you think that's

were leftaning. Do you think that's reflecting an industry dynamic or do you think that's how the ecosystem has developed um, online?

>> Well, I think it's both. I think from the creator perspective, you're starting with what are your values and hopefully at least if it's not contrived, what is authentically you and then that's going to put you somewhere on on the political

spectrum. I think without a doubt, the

spectrum. I think without a doubt, the way that algorithms uh engage directly with what triggers the most emotional response

>> is a direct driver of the hyperpolarized nature. And you know, I'm I'm guilty of

nature. And you know, I'm I'm guilty of it to a degree because I'm in this space. I also try to be honest with my

space. I also try to be honest with my audience about when it comes to things like gas prices and whether a president controls them. I'm very honest that this

controls them. I'm very honest that this is overly politicized. It becomes a political football. And the truth is

political football. And the truth is presidents can do a couple of things related to gas prices. And it's it's mostly not not about that. And so I try to balance the fact that I do have a perspective. I do have an opinion from a

perspective. I do have an opinion from a moral standpoint about what I think is best. But at the same time, I'm trying

best. But at the same time, I'm trying to be upfront about the fact that there are things that are completely political. There are things that are

political. There are things that are outside of that. And hopefully the audience appreciates that over the long term.

>> Yeah, >> the the algorithms are destroying America. Uh this is my this is my

America. Uh this is my this is my informed view.

>> Sounds like it should go.

>> Yeah, I mean there we go. Don, look at us come together as soon as so the [laughter] so the the reason I say this is because the Tik Tok and X algorithms in particular program for verality and

so they are programming for what is the strongest >> response, the strongest emotional uh absolutely can be manipulated by outside actors. You've actually seen quite a bit

actors. You've actually seen quite a bit of this on on both Tik Tok as as well as X. Um, but people who are then in the

X. Um, but people who are then in the real world use that as a substitute for polling, for example. You see

politicians and if they get a lot of retweets, they think what they're saying is popular and then they do more of it.

And so you'll see it bleed over into the real world. Trends that you would never

real world. Trends that you would never get if you just walked around and talk to normal humans suddenly start popping up when you talk around with normal humans because they've been watching it online and it's been and it's been really really pushed. And so, you know, when when people say, you know, how do

we get back to normal? My my first recommendation is to do something that actually is the opposite of what our industry should be saying, which is get off lawn. Like actually turn off your

off lawn. Like actually turn off your phone and go to a place with actual human beings and have conversations with those people. And you know, for this is

those people. And you know, for this is where I make my my non-religious religious pitch. Everybody needs a form

religious pitch. Everybody needs a form of Sabbath. You should get off your

of Sabbath. You should get off your phone on Friday night. you should get back on your phone on Saturday night and just be completely disconnected from everything that's going on and be in a place where everybody who, you know, is,

you know, bonding over values and over over shared things that the more online we are, the more polarized we are. And I think that's been the opposite of the way that we've viewed politics for for decades in the country. The more informed you are,

the country. The more informed you are, the better the the electorate's going to be. And it turns out that because

be. And it turns out that because ourformational ecosystem is so polluted and because it is actually programming to the id inside all of us, what that means is that probably the more time you're spending on X or the more time

you're spending on TikTok, maybe the less informed you are and also the more polarized you are and the more out of touch with reality you are.

>> That's true. People think that they live on I have a producer who lives on Twitter and every time I ask him for something, he goes to Twitter and I said, "Do you ever do research other than Twitter?

>> Touch some grass."

>> Yeah. Yeah. Touch some grass. But I do, it's interesting that Ben you say that because I do every single day I tell people because I'm on I go live at 10 and 5 and I tell them between that they

can be informed without being inundated.

They can read and until then I tell them until I see you at 5:00 turn the TV off >> and I mean watch you >> but [laughter] I mean turn the TV off or turn your and then and read and pick

your moments but I rarely do content.

And every once in a while I'll do weekend content because I think it's important to give people a break and I do think that people should be in community with each other and that's something that we should all um be pushing. It doesn't you know you don't

pushing. It doesn't you know you don't make that much more revenue or become that much more successful by constantly pushing even on the weekends content content content. I think you give people

content content. I think you give people a break and make them want you you know >> and the two big platforms in the US are X and YouTube. That's kind of the spaces where people are driven to the >> although Tik Tok's enormous news.

>> Tik Tok's enormous, but it's probably got a bit more. It's not sort of hardcore news, if you will. It's people

looking at lifestyle, culture, other things as well. Um, and within X and YouTube, there is sort of a primary prepoundonderance, if you will, of

right-wing identified voices. Is there a reason, you think, for that? Do you

think they've sort of moved ahead of the curve and there's more faces emerging from the left? What do you put that down? Uh I mean I think that that you

down? Uh I mean I think that that you see this quite frequently in terms of new technologies that the right is the first to adapt because they feel shut out of traditional spaces. So for

example uh the right was very shut out of TV spaces. Cable emerges, Fox News emerges because the right's like okay we need some place to go. And then after cable becomes you know more balanced MSNBC comes up and CNN and once you have

all those outlets then the right is like okay well you know maybe we'll have to try talk radio. Talk radio is now going to be our new things in the '9s the early 90s you get that. So the

timeline's off here, but that's basically the idea. When the right feels squeezed in a particular legacy space, they're the first to adapt to a new space. And so for me, you know, my

space. And so for me, you know, my op-eds weren't going to be appearing in the New York Times. And so the idea of start your own online outlet is a lot more attractive than somebody who is going to have access to the New York Times. I mean, I'm old enough to

Times. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when terrace former employer Politico invited me to write a newsletter for Politico. And there was basically a riot in the newsroom because [laughter] because how dare I write the the holy and sanctified Politico morning

newsletter. And so the right is the

newsletter. And so the right is the first to adapt. And then what happens is that people realize there's a market there and they move into that market and then a new market emerges. So I think there there's definitely something to that for sure.

>> I think that's true. the the left has also been very hesitant to really fund a lot of these operations at a at a bigger level >> and um that I think has held back also

uh the independent left spaces where it's it's mostly people like me who are just building slowly over time and there really hasn't been any um large influx

or especially with younger people as they get into the age where you might think about starting to produce content it's been missing and a lot of my colleagues have said we all would have could have gotten going far more quickly on some of these platforms. If someone

had recognized the potential more quickly, had come in more rapidly to to fill the gap that was then subsequently created as the right came in there, there just really hasn't been that funding.

>> It's a short sight on the on the left or even center if you're on the right. What

is what is it? Red Seed Ventures or something like a Red Sea.

>> You're talking about um the the company that's that's >> Red Seed Ventures. You have the you know pouring money into conservative spaces and you don't see that on the left or even center left or even starting to but

>> they have these like packs now. What is

it called that all of these creators are a part of chorus? They're all getting supported through the these >> but not nearly to the >> No, they're behind but they didn't need it because they could just go to cable news and get interviews over and over.

This is really the key is that that a lot of people who would be funders for these sorts of enterprises are like well why do I need to fund that? We already

own CNN or MSNBC.

>> That's true. I think they were behind the curve in realizing that the power of that was dim.

>> I totally agree with you.

>> Yeah. Tara, one question to you before we move from sort of context setting to challenges which I'm sure there are many of. Um what also sort of comes through

of. Um what also sort of comes through in a lot of our research and this isn't unique just to the US as a market is that if you were to map out the top few creators most often it would be men. Um,

and particularly with sort of the political oped uh style of communicating to audiences, is that a challenge as you see it? Is it a kind of a state of play?

see it? Is it a kind of a state of play?

How do you approach it?

>> I just don't think there are as many women doing this yet. I hope to be, you know, there's Megan Kelly, um, Candace Owen, there some on the the right, but and now there are women on the left that

are doing it. Um, the Spare is like a huge star um under the desk news. I just

think it's it's maybe a little bit taking a little bit longer. Um, and I think eventually it'll be more balanced.

I think there will be more women, but I you know, all of the polling and everything says that men still will listen to women. Actually, a huge audience of mine is men, you know, like >> Yeah, I was going to

>> it's actually disproportionately more male than female men like politics. I

mean, >> um, so >> I hope that in a few years from now it's it's way more balanced. But I just look at it as the news industry evolved as well. It started off with all men and

well. It started off with all men and >> Yeah. And I think

>> Yeah. And I think >> if you were to widen from news creators to alternative news creators, people who do other things but also talk about the news, you'd probably have a wider mix uh gender- wise there.

>> Yeah. You're also asking us to go out on our own and create our own businesses.

You know, create our own platforms, independent media, you know, small businesses essentially is what you're starting at. And so, you know, women

starting at. And so, you know, women have to be incentivized to see that there is revenue there for them. And and

I think they they are seeing it and they're I hope to one day be a model for other women who want to do this.

>> I think you are already. I think you're really >> a trailblazer doing this. It's

interesting though in because in America you don't see a lot of women on the news side. You do, you know, you have like

side. You do, you know, you have like Alex Cooper, right, who does, you know, sort of entertainment. No shade to but it's a whole different thing. It's more

of a creator than than a journalist. But

I find that I think in Turkey and other countries, women who give news and information are huge huge independent voices and independent roles and they're doing really really well. It's just

interesting in here in the United States, it hasn't really happened. So

>> I think when cable news starts to lose more and more journalists when there's when they, you know, as they >> continue with their layoffs as they seem to do, um more women who have I had a unique background. I was a White House

unique background. I was a White House correspondent for network. I already

knew how to do broadcast journalism. I

was a podcast host. I wrote a newsletter. It made sense. For a lot of

newsletter. It made sense. For a lot of people, they may have only been a print reporter their entire life or they've only been a broadcast journalist. So, it

it was an easier leap for me to do this.

Um, and I just think that you just have to take the leap. And I I think it's cool to see women doing it all the time.

Who knows, maybe we'll create a lady collective or something.

>> I'm only smiling because I can pick up a trend here. Cable news is on the Wayne.

trend here. Cable news is on the Wayne.

Stop watching TV. Listen to me at 5.

It's kind [laughter] of There's a mood here. Um, let's talk about the

here. Um, let's talk about the challenges. David, maybe start with you

challenges. David, maybe start with you and pick up on something that Tara said.

Um, it's a treadmill in many ways, isn't it? It's kind of it's monetization. It's

it? It's kind of it's monetization. It's

how do I put out more content? Um, how

do I get more engagement? How do you manage all of that when you're kind of a oneman onewoman machine?

>> Yeah, I mean there there's a couple of options. One is you you really do do

options. One is you you really do do everything yourself and you kind of have to enjoy the business side of it. Uh the

other is you start to take on a structure that is a little more corporate and you start delegating in in that way or some combination of the two.

I enjoy the business side of it but I also can't do it myself anymore. So I I have a team. There are a lot of people that that don't. I think one of the challenges is as it becomes clear that the independent news space uh can be luc

lucrative and it can be interesting and you can build a large audience. Legacy

and corporate media is going to want to come into it and to a degree they already have. You look at some of the

already have. You look at some of the largest YouTube news channels, they are legacy companies that have just dumped huge money to rapidly scale YouTube channels. And so you might start to get

channels. And so you might start to get that same 8020 or even 9010 where overwhelmingly those who come in with the funds are going to very quickly uh kind of scoop up market share. The other

thing that's interesting is for a lot of long time when I was doing this when new people came into the market, I didn't really see them as competitors in the sense that the pie was growing so

quickly that it was just great for everybody. I think now it's starting to

everybody. I think now it's starting to get to the point, especially as people can only consume so much stuff in a day.

There's 24 hours in a day, etc. It's less clear to me now. Like I do think the spaces are starting to get a little bit more crowded where there's more of a shift between creators rather than like we're just growing the pie at the same time that everybody's getting their

slice. So I don't know where where that

slice. So I don't know where where that goes in the next 5 to 8 years.

>> Don, you >> Yeah. I I don't know either. I don't

>> Yeah. I I don't know either. I don't

look at people as as competitors either.

It's interesting because I would look at the folks on other networks when I was in traditional media as competitors, but you know, we support each other. Tara's

on my channel all the time. If she

invites me to do something, I'll do it.

I can call people. Um, you know, I I use my own rolodex as uh, you know, instead of a booker, you know, um, and I get people to come on who have their own independent channels and we support each other.

>> Sorry. Is it because you don't have the framework or structure or support that a traditional or legacy news organization could give you that it's it's scrappy of course, but you need to sort of hold each other close?

>> Yeah. And and in terms of what you said about um about creating the channel the creating channels and and and legacy media, I don't think that they really

had gotten that I shouldn't probably give away the secret that they don't need to use so many resources to do what they do. [laughter] Um because I you

they do. [laughter] Um because I you know I I I put on coverage uh Jim Aosta, Joy Reid and I did coverage of um two

different things. a huge protest um and

different things. a huge protest um and um uh I forget some I forget what the other event was and we did it with the my small team which is a team of four

people doing a terror was part of it >> um for you know and we didn't have to have 30 producers and a writer and a control room and all of those things and it was network quality coverage that

people tuned into and they it was actually more interesting because we didn't have a it didn't it wasn't seen through a corporate filter we weren't pushing it through a corporate filter and saying, you know, can I say this?

Um, is a boss going to be mad if I happen to insult Donald Trump even inadvertently? Is he going to call the

inadvertently? Is he going to call the the company and say, "Get rid of that guy on the anchor desk." We don't we don't we don't have those.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, challenges.

>> Yeah. Sure. One is the financial burnout and the other is the creative burnout.

Ben, do you want to jump in on that? I

mean, WTF shut down.

>> Yeah. I mean, when when the uh I mean, so I believe I have not missed a day of work that was not a company holiday in four years, including vacations with my family, right? Because if you're not on

family, right? Because if you're not on the air, then it's not like there's a substitute host on my show, for example.

Uh and so, yeah, it can be it can burn you out. Plus, I mean, this news cycle

you out. Plus, I mean, this news cycle has been increasingly frenetic for over a decade. And I keep looking around

a decade. And I keep looking around going, when is somebody going to take a breath? And nobody has taken a breath.

breath? And nobody has taken a breath.

And it just gets more psychotic every single moment. And so, at at a certain

single moment. And so, at at a certain point, it went from being, you know, fun to kind of a drag. And sometimes it goes back to being fun. But the reality is that like anything else, you know, on a daily basis, it sort of depends on what you're covering, whether it's

interesting, the news cycle is so fast now that that a cycle that would have taken two weeks now takes two days. And

at by by day three, you're kind of bored with the topic already and you got to move on to the next thing and so is the audience. Uh and so so that's that's

audience. Uh and so so that's that's very difficult. You know, in terms of

very difficult. You know, in terms of the business, I will say I'm in a bit of a different position because we actually scaled like a a very large scale company. What that meant was bringing on

company. What that meant was bringing on uh other creators, some for good, some for ill. Uh and uh and I think

for ill. Uh and uh and I think >> talk about that.

>> Uh not particularly um but >> no regrets >> but yeah regrets we have a but the >> um but you know I I think that as all of us kind of mature in our spaces we're

going to have to face a lot of the same questions the legacy media outlets face about you know who you want on your air, what are the editorial standards, what are the things you have to do and those are challenges that you know thank god we have those challenges because we grew so large but they are challenges for

sure.

>> Yeah. Um I realize we're almost at time and there's so many questions. I

apologize we haven't had time because the conversation was so great but I encourage you to find the news creators and speak to them but let me close with sort of two sentence from each of you

and this is a bit of a challenge one how do you respond to the observation that news creators are essentially remixers and the second if you had kind of a top

tip aside from don't blow up so many resources what would it be for traditional news media organizations do you want to >> oh boy starting with me well I I think uh so on on the tell me the first one

again I want to go >> first one is are news creators essentially news readers >> oh yeah yes they that yes absolutely but I see that as a feature rather than a bug and I think the audience appreciates

that there is still this kind of underbelly of of close to straight news reporting and we're layering opinion hopefully in an authentic and genuine way and I think that's actually the appeal and and sort of like the

parasocial relationship and do you res does a person's personality resonate with the audience I think that that's a feature rather then uh rather than a bug. Um as far and tell me the second

bug. Um as far and tell me the second part.

>> Top tip.

>> Top tip. Okay. The top tip is just start creating the content right away. There's

so many conversations I have with people who want to start and they're asking me about publicists and they're asking me about microphones and lighting and who can print their merch and all of this stuff is completely irrelevant. The

number one thing is get the content onto the platforms as quickly as possible.

Start getting feedback. Iterate based on that. That's really the big thing you

that. That's really the big thing you have to do.

>> Super.

>> I'll say what he said. I I I do think that certain creators are remixers. And

I I see a difference between a creator and a journalist. And as long as you say what you are, then I'm okay with it. But

there are some, you know, there are some journalists who aren't doing journalism.

And there are some creators who are actually doing a good job at journalism.

So I I don't think that there's one or the other. I just think that both can

the other. I just think that both can coexist and that we have to adapt to the new environment. My um what I would say

new environment. My um what I would say is uh perfection is boring. And so if you're going to do it, again, what he said, just do it and don't worry about

it being perfect. And um don't let Yeah.

What is perfect be the enemy of the good? I think that's and have and have

good? I think that's and have and have integrity.

>> So yeah, I mean, as far as us being remixers, obviously we're not the ones who are doing a lot of the core reporting. I think that that that's

reporting. I think that that that's always been true. And so sometimes we're spotting a buried lead in paragraph 19 that that may be, you know, not elevated in a way that that we might find interesting. And I think that that is a

interesting. And I think that that is a real service. But to pretend that the

real service. But to pretend that the legacy media doesn't have a continuing role is silly. I think the the question you asked was about tips for the legacy media. Correct.

media. Correct.

>> Uh so the t tips for the legacy media and I think the number one thing for the legacy media is acknowledge your bias. I

think that the the legacy media are constantly suggesting that they are fully objective, floating above the fray, fully capable of removing themselves from the the sort of day-to-day politics. And I I I admire

day-to-day politics. And I I I admire the attempt by many people to do that. I

actually do think that that's a useful thing. And I think journalistic

thing. And I think journalistic practices are necessary. But it also happens to be that if you want to know the number one critique of legacy media from the right, and this has been true for decades, all the errors fall in the same direction. And yet we keep hearing

same direction. And yet we keep hearing about objectivity. If all the errors are

about objectivity. If all the errors are going in one direction, and we keep hearing how objective the journalists are, we start to doubt that you're telling us the truth, not just about your own objectivity, about everything you're saying. And so I I think one of

you're saying. And so I I think one of the things that, you know, I'll mention my friend Barry Weiss, I think what Barry is trying to do at CBS News is quite good, actually. I think bringing on people of openly political views from different perspectives to discuss issues

is really important and I I hope that more legacy media institutions would acknowledge how polarized we are and the way to solve the polarization is not to ignore it is to host conversations between people who disagree.

>> D. Um yeah, I would say I still do think about my maybe I still think about what I can offer that's new that hasn't been reported and why you might find value in

my channel. Um, so I do actually call

my channel. Um, so I do actually call sources. I do try to break stories. Some

sources. I do try to break stories. Some

days they're big, some days they're not.

Uh, some days it's news analysis. Some

days I'm just calling sources on the Hill and trying to make sense of the last election and and you know, I'll write something on Substack and I'll host a show. Um, obviously the Epstein story has been really big, but I also

was covering that really closely when a lot of people weren't for the past six years. So I've been able to offer new

years. So I've been able to offer new reporting, new analysis and exclusives.

But yeah, I believe the uh legacy media has a huge value. I do use their reporting as support for my reporting and often it leads to future reporting.

Um and in some ways, yeah, we're we're remixers, but like you said, people want to feel like there is um they like you, they like your personality, they like the way you call shots. I think we need

more referees, honestly, and we need to have people on on tribes um online. And

I try to be a referee. That's how I see myself in this game. And um yeah, I'm a person of course I we all grow up with our biases just by the fact of you know being a first generation American all

have a bias because of that and it's subconscious but I try not to bring it you know into everything. So that's

that's my my angle for this for this world and my tip is to do it exactly.

You know how many people I'm sure it's same thing people ask all the time. I

want to do what you're doing. Okay well

then just put a camera in front of your face and start talking. That's the first step. [laughter]

step. [laughter] >> I did not I didn't hear the question.

You said to what was >> legacy to legacy media? Oh, well my advice I I agree.

>> Don't fire a non.

>> I agree. I agree somewhat. Well, that's

[laughter] true. Um, thank you very much. We agree on a lot. Um, and I do

much. We agree on a lot. Um, and I do agree somewhat of what you said. So,

this is a conversation that we used to have when we were when I he would come on my show. But, uh, I don't think that journalists are as biased maybe as you think. I have a different opinion of

think. I have a different opinion of what's happening at CBS. My my thing would be for the corporation to get out of the newsroom.

>> Yeah.

>> Because the problem is not with the journalists, it's with the gatekeepers.

And if the corporation becomes the gatekeeper, then there's going to be constant influence from the people that we're supposed to be holding accountable. Like the people in

accountable. Like the people in Washington DC. Yeah.

Washington DC. Yeah.

>> The people who own things, the the wealthy people, um the oligarchs, the billionaires. Those are the people that

billionaires. Those are the people that we're supposed to be holding accountable. And if they are filtering,

accountable. And if they are filtering, if if we are getting information that's filtered through them and we must do that or legacy media, then the game is over.

>> And also just the deal making for for you know the just to get the interview, the scoop, the you know the it's just so political inside of the newsroom >> and that's the great thing about what we're creating. We create our own

we're creating. We create our own newsrooms >> and lose the desk. Uh completely at time. Big round of applause please for

time. Big round of applause please for our news [applause] today. Thank you all very much.

today. Thank you all very much.

All right. [applause]

>> Wow. Amazing discussion everyone. I want

to um mention that the Reuters journalists have to adhere to the Reuters trust principles which is something that having come from many years as a broadcast journalist behind an anchor desk has been very impressive

to me. And I would even point out I

to me. And I would even point out I spoke to the um a newly appointed reporter who covers the beauty beat. She

can't even receive like an eye shadow for free. That's how committed we are to

for free. That's how committed we are to making sure that we are uh free and fair in our reporting.

Next up, a fantastic discussion. More to

come. Next up, we have uh Reuters editor-inchief, Aleandra Galone, who is returning to the stage this time in conversation with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales.

Hello again.

>> Hello.

>> Not again for the first time.

>> Not again for you, but again for for me.

Uh feels different in the afternoon rather than the first thing in the morning.

>> Um Jimmy, thank you so much for uh joining us uh today. I mean, obviously Jimmy needs no introduction. Founder of

Wikipedia.