Personal Branding Masterclass: How I Made $10M+ On LinkedIn - Chris Donnelly

I don't know anyone else who does what I do without any sales team.

What was revenue last year?

About 10 million.

That's the power of a personal brand.

And Chris Donnelly has mastered it.

I got a billion views last year across my content. I now effectively have one

my content. I now effectively have one strategy, which is I Oh, wow. In this episode, he shares his

Oh, wow. In this episode, he shares his exact content creation process, how he uses automation and delegation to scale, and why he can take 3 weeks off and come back to everything still running on

track. Ordinary entrepreneurs like

track. Ordinary entrepreneurs like myself can become extraordinary by building an audience. LinkedIn is like waiting for you to create high-quality

content. It's very systemizable. Most of

content. It's very systemizable. Most of

it's written content. You can do big batch work and create great content and then post it throughout the week.

Everyone's like, "Well, what's the thing that works in the algorithm?" And

usually what you see it's like very high quality content that gets people to stop scrolling and engage with it and stay engaged for a longer than normal period of time.

Exactly. I'm creating content for my audience that's so good that they want to share it with their audience.

Right.

From simply doing that. I'm selling 10 20,000 a week of consultancy.

If you could instill one or two systems in any creator's business, what would those systems be?

I think it would be that's amazing.

Chris, you went on a wild ride of going from almost no followers on LinkedIn to over a million in 24 months.

What did you expect to have happen when you started that journey and how did the expectations match reality?

I think to be honest the it was very intentional as in I remember at the time thinking I've just come off the back of like you know 10 15 years of growing

other people's audiences and growing businesses and I was like I can see the benefit that those people have had. I

can see the benefit that you know people that I've helped build audiences have gone on to become celebrities. And I was thinking to myself well there's not an amazing amount of good business content.

And so if I could fill the gap, I feel like this could go quickly. And then

actually it was a choice of like, do I want to post on Instagram or do I want to post on LinkedIn?

Right. How did you decide? That's so

many creators that I talked to are like, okay, I'm I've heard I should go all in on one platform, but like h I could kind of go between any of these three.

So I had a few like tiny pieces of insight. One was in my agency that I ran

insight. One was in my agency that I ran in my 20ies when we sold it there was a stat which was over 75% of all our new business came from LinkedIn

and then in my health tech business 80% of new clients came from LinkedIn.

Okay.

Half the staff did and all the VC introductions did. And so I was like it

introductions did. And so I was like it just feels like it's a platform that slept on. Instagram looked hard.

slept on. Instagram looked hard.

Yeah. you know, and you had to be very video focused. Whereas I was like a

video focused. Whereas I was like a natural writer and I said when I started on LinkedIn, I was like, I'll never do a photo, I'll never do video, I'll never do that stuff, which obviously funny now, but it meant that I could just

write a huge amount on the weekend and then post it throughout the week. And so

it was I thought it was easy to systemize.

Yeah.

And the payback window was actually quite quick because everyone's already doing business and transactions on LinkedIn.

So, it's not like you're showing up on another platform, Tik Tok or YouTube or Instagram, and being like, "Hey, follow me for this great pathy wisdom and, you know, pay money or whatever." It's like,

"No, everyone showed up to LinkedIn in order to build relationships, to transact, to do business."

Exactly. And like it was uh I remember looking at the growth of LinkedIn, which was staggering at the time. there's like

a billion people in 1% post and I was like wow that is like opportune moment to like dive in and I said to myself at the time I was like I'm going to do this intensely for 3 months okay

and look at the payback window and obviously but by 3 months I was like I have to go all in I have to put a team on this I have to like relearn to design everything because it was just it's interesting that you had this

specific window I've had Ann Laura on the podcast who's also you know we're here uh in person for Craft and Commerce and she's another one of the speakers and her whole thing is tiny experiments where you're saying for this fixed amount of time I'm going to do this

exact thing and I'm not going to judge it in the meantime right she's a neuroscientist uh but she's like I'm going to look at it as a scientist would like an experiment and so you you kind of did the same thing of like three

months we're just going to see what happens and you got to the end and you're just like okay this is uh worth pursuing absolutely I mean I had worked in uh

e-commerce digital marketing conversion for so long that I was pretty obsessed with the idea of AB testing things. And

so when it came to LinkedIn, it wasn't like I was posting my thoughts and my feelings and like selfies and, you know, the occasional client win. I was like, what content is going to get people to

want to follow me? What content is going to educate people so they associate trust with me? And at some point, I will be able to build a business off the back of that, right? And I think I was three

months in and I'd gone from like 20,000 followers to I think 50,000 followers.

Okay.

And I was like, that's interesting. Like

it's fast growth. I obviously haven't fully learned it yet, but like where's the opportunity? And by 6 months, I hit

the opportunity? And by 6 months, I hit 80,000.

And I feel like at that point when I locked in, and locked in, I mean like I really systemized creating hooks. really

studied other creators. Like I would study hundreds of other creators and I would take a note of their following every day, okay, at 9:00 a.m. every morning. And then I would look at which individual posts

drove the biggest followers before that technology was available, right?

And so I was like, okay, well, it's the content on delegation or it's the content on system creation or on habits that's driving massive growth. And so in many ways I took all the things I loved

and all the things I knew would do well and I went all in on that. And from 6 months and 80,000 I then got to 350 by the end of the year.

And that's when people were like that's the fastest growing account like in the world. And I was like I didn't know

world. And I was like I didn't know that. And uh you know all this sort of

that. And uh you know all this sort of stuff. But the benefit started to be

stuff. But the benefit started to be very significant at that point.

Yeah. That's amazing. You said this thing of 99% of people on the platform don't post. Only 1% actually do. I think

don't post. Only 1% actually do. I think

there's a lot of times as a creator that there's this very fine line between you and the 1% where something that I talk about is how

like 90% of out of everyone who has a dream, 90% of them say, "Oh, I'm going to consume content about about it." 9%

say, "You know what? I'm gonna not just consume content. I'm gonna go do the

consume content. I'm gonna go do the thing. you know, I'm gonna go hike this

thing. you know, I'm gonna go hike this trail, you know, this epic trail, or I'm gonna build the tiny house that I wanted to, or, you know, whatever cool thing.

But then there's only just this 1% that posts about it. And what's interesting is the that 9% is actually the hard part of saying of going from consuming to being

like, "No, I'm actually going to do it."

You know, from like reading content about business to saying, "I'm going to start and run a business."

And so you're you're doing the hardest part there. And then the easier thing is

part there. And then the easier thing is actually saying, "Oh, and I'm going to document the journey, right?" And then get you into this 1%. You're like, "You already made the jump from not doing anything to doing the thing." And like

now just cross over this thin line. And

what you're saying is on LinkedIn, it was just the the ratios are extreme. And

I see that, right? Cuz I go on LinkedIn and it will show me posts from two or three weeks ago.

Yeah.

And even posts that I've seen before, which the algorithm is only doing that if they didn't have enough content to show me. That in itself as a point I

show me. That in itself as a point I think is so good, so well made like people really really should focus on that. If the platform is showing content

that. If the platform is showing content from two or three weeks ago, there's not enough content, right?

Like the algorithm needs more content to distribute. And so I still think that if

distribute. And so I still think that if you were to start on LinkedIn today, you would be early.

And I find that again like really exciting in my position in that I've been all in on it for two and a half years. It's very systemizable when you

years. It's very systemizable when you get like a most of it's written content.

And so you don't have to be on camera the whole time. You can do big batch work and create great content and then post it throughout the week and you would be shocked at the quality of the

audience on LinkedIn for from a business perspective. I have never seen it

perspective. I have never seen it anywhere else.

What's an example of that where a time that you were shocked about the quality of the audience?

I think that the the two early pieces of data is what I said earlier. So most of our business back before I took LinkedIn seriously, most of it was coming from LinkedIn anyway. Like I won Bugatti from

LinkedIn anyway. Like I won Bugatti from LinkedIn.

Yeah.

When I was 29 and that only happened.

It's a pretty good client. That'll work.

Yeah. Exactly. It's like

we'll throw that logo on the website.

Yeah. Exactly. Like you get Bugatti on the logo. I think I think in many ways

the logo. I think I think in many ways that's that case study and winning them at that age allowed us to be like we're so legitimate any luxury brand can work with us.

But I had like those pieces of data. And

then in stepping back from my health tech which was like 33 years old I think I effectively went traveling with Lou and and solo because I was like I've

done 15 years of startups. I'm

exhausted. I was doing the LinkedIn thing and I was like I should try and make some money when I'm away and I'm a tinkerer like an entrepreneur you know I I love to play with things and try things out. And I put live a couple of

things out. And I put live a couple of slots in my diary that people could book me for to talk to them about, you know, building a business and growing on

LinkedIn. And they just went every week

LinkedIn. And they just went every week without fail. No marketing, just like a

without fail. No marketing, just like a link on my profile. And I suddenly was like, it's so interesting that from simply doing that, I'm selling, you

know, 10 20,000 a week of consultancy.

So people are just saying, "Hey, I'll pay you for a half hour of your time, an hour of your time." or something like that.

And it was it was anyone from but it was really serious people, right?

Like it was entrepreneurs who were like, I think that personal brand would help my business. And I'm like, yeah, I think

my business. And I'm like, yeah, I think it would as well. Um, and

here's some evidence.

Yeah. I was like, the evidence is that you're here talking to me and this is my business now, right?

Um, and it got to the point where I was charging something like $750 an hour.

the demand was outstripping it continuously and so I moved it to $2,000 an hour and it was still selling right every week every slot I put live was

selling uh and I was suddenly like the power of this platform is just you know completely different to anything I've worked with before amazing I want to

dive into exactly what worked to build that because you've studied this uh I mean you've taken the the level of rigor that you've always had in your entrepreneurial journey and and put it to It's not a like, oh, let me just

throw up a post and see how it works.

Uh, but I want to go back to your entrepreneur journey because I think most people see these creators come out of nowhere.

Uh, three people that immediately come to mind. So, you, I saw Bloom, uh, and

to mind. So, you, I saw Bloom, uh, and Andrew Huberman of people who start who have like an amazing level of success like Huberman. It wasn't that

far into his podcast that he was topping the charts and all of that. Uh, and for Sahil, you know, he we had a joke where, you know, I tease him. I'm like, Sahil, you think the creator economy was

invented during COVID, right? Because

that's just when you found it, you know, um, you know, but you get these insane growth rates, but it's usually from someone who has done an insane amount of

work or has a huge amount of expertise already and then they're showing up as a creator, right? So, in Hubberman's case,

creator, right? So, in Hubberman's case, you know, he's already like he's at Stanford, he's teaching all these classes, right? you know, he has decades

classes, right? you know, he has decades of experience and all this credibility.

He just wasn't public about it. And then

in Sil's case, right, he understands business inside and out. He's everyone's

like, "Wow, you're making so much more in your creator business than you would have ever made in private equity." And

he's like, "No, actually like private equity was a pretty amazing, you know, he's like uh working insane hours, but like he understands business inside and out."

And that's what I've seen from you is the, you know, the 15 years of of startup. So why don't you start like

startup. So why don't you start like where did you get into entrepreneurship?

So on my show I always talk about this this with other entrepreneurs. It's just

like where does the entrepreneurship come from?

Yeah.

And I I don't know yet because I haven't done enough episodes but I sit here and I think to myself that the correlation of having entrepreneurship exposed to you at a young age is so significant in

your belief in yourself that you can go on and do the thing. And so my dad was an entrepreneur when we were younger, which meant that I have a crystallized view of the fact that at all sports

games during the week, no other parent was there other than my dad.

Okay.

Which is like crazy. I remember it. I

used to play rugby at like a a school where we had Wednesday and Thursday and then I played rugby on the weekend. My

dad never missed a game, but he also was very successful. And so

I remember being like, "Dad's obviously worked out the code. like he he's the one that's cracked it, you know, like he might not be the wealthiest, but he's got like freedom and choice and so forth. And so we were exposed to that

forth. And so we were exposed to that very early on and he encouraged entrepreneurship. He would ask you, you

entrepreneurship. He would ask you, you know, how do you think this works? Or

like, why do you think that worked? Or

he would say this thing where he would almost parrot something someone had said to him growing up, which was um if you ever want to make real money, it will never come from having a job. It will

come through owning the equity. And like

again like it stuck with me growing up.

Um those are pretty great things to have stuck in your head from an early age.

I mean I would always say you know had it not been for my dad none of us would be entrepreneurs. Uh my older brother is

be entrepreneurs. Uh my older brother is an entrepreneur which you know he's three years older than me. So that was a huge impact on me. Um he was like uh he's like uh you know a million startups

uh uh you know every year he's releasing new ones like he's had great successes he's had ones that have failed but he is fundamentally you know like a type entrepreneur like he's like I'm just

going to do this thing um and then we started a like when I was younger anyway I started selling things at school and so like everyone does I was selling

like you know laser pens I was selling things that jumped off tables watches that turn TVs on and off and it was to annoy teachers.

You know, I was I thought it was funny to bug a teacher during class and it was and you know, people would buy these things from me. I started selling them online. So, I built my first website at

online. So, I built my first website at you know 15 16 type thing which you know all of us kind of do. You know, we get into the playing around with websites um

at that age or at least that's our version of it nowadays. It's kids

playing with AI, right? Um, and I think at like 1920, my

right? Um, and I think at like 1920, my brother and I launched a company to help students go to university and it was like a search platform and it did quite

well, made some money, but ultimately kind of failed and kind of left me in a position where I had lots of digital skills, but I didn't have any money and had lost quite a lot of money on that

previous business. And so I was like,

previous business. And so I was like, hm, I'm just going to build websites for startups and try and take a bit of equity and get paid and and see what I do. And that was basically what I did in

do. And that was basically what I did in my part-time. You know, I built

my part-time. You know, I built websites, I did social media marketing, I took equity in lots of different businesses. None of them worked. Um and

businesses. None of them worked. Um and

but I built this skill set which was you know idea generation uh how to market something how to get a customer to buy something and you know

found myself in a position where when we came to graduate I was making5 to $10,000 a month.

Mhm.

And the job I would have got in professional services was going to pay me four. And I was like okay well

me four. And I was like okay well decision made. I'm going to start my

decision made. I'm going to start my agency. And then I started verb at 21.

agency. And then I started verb at 21.

That's amazing. I I mean I did very similar things probably uh introduced to HTML and coding at 14. Yeah.

And then you know on from there at through college paying for it building websites for people and then I got my first $10,000 web design project and I was like wait a second.

I'm I'm here in college to learn how to make money like build those skills. Uh

that's enough money that'll work. And

and so I you know I dropped out of school and like uh you know called my mom and was like hey um I'm going to go do this instead and she she was very very supportive of it. Um but just realizing like oh I've already learned

the thing uh that I need to do here.

But then those skills around you know web design and marketing and copywriting and all the stuff that you just learn through client services end up being insanely valuable.

I'd still say like my skill set is not too different now to what it was then.

It's just I've deployed it and it's something I talk about a lot like I've deployed it in lots of different business models and now I simply deploy it with a much greater leverage you know and a much greater um you know

asynchronous delivery as opposed to you know my 20s I built a big marketing agency which like bootstrapped it was [ __ ] difficult you know it took 10 years

but you know got to 100 staff biggest clients in the world but we were a service business you know we you would come to us and you'd say I want to do marketing for Aston Martin or Biati or these brands and we would do it and it

was a great business but the the fact that you're always delivering for clients I always found quite quite tough. So when we had the opportunity to

tough. So when we had the opportunity to to sell that which was actually precoid I was like okay I think I can I think I can sell this and then obviously co sort of destroyed the business.

So did you you ended up you sold sold and completed the transaction before co?

No. So we were in negotiation with a company to buy us. Oh wow.

Yeah. Yeah. It's actually so crazy. But

again, I I actually really thankful it happened in retrospect because, you know, at the time I think we were offered like 20 million to buy the business and I was like, "Huh, we can get way more than that." Um, and it was

me that was putting off the deal. It was

me that was forcing the deal back. Uh,

and then I we was skiing, COVID hit, the deal was pulled and I lost 80% of the revenue. I had to furow pretty much

revenue. I had to furow pretty much everyone in the business and had to mothball the business for a whole year.

Um, and so because you just didn't have clients coming in spending money.

Yeah. I mean, luxury brands were traditional. I mean, they did not really

traditional. I mean, they did not really have big digital presences. Like ecom

wasn't even that big for luxury. And so,

it was a complete wipeout. And then I remember thinking to myself like for seven, eight years I've run this from the outside, incredible company, like beautiful brands, beautiful work.

Everyone thinks I'm an entrepreneur and like that means a lot to me because I went a different path than life and so I don't want people thinking I'm an idiot.

Um who really does you know?

Yeah. And uh got myself into a position where I had sort of a year off in co reconnected with friends. It was an amazing time for me.

But then after co I was like okay I have to rebuild this thing. This thing has to come back. And so I went all in like

come back. And so I went all in like maybe the hardest I've ever worked. um

you know from home I started doing like webinars um and this was still bringing verb back to life.

This is bringing verb back to life and we went from you know the 10 of us that were not on furow everyone else is on government support um we then came back to be almost twice

the size we've been before.

Oh wow. in a year because digital took off luxury digital we were perfectly positioned in 2021 at least I mean here in the US brands were spending a ton of money again like they had this huge pullback

and they were like wait are we good I think we're good okay and interest rates were super low and so you know it was growth pal costs exactly and so we had we had this you

know we're down here thinking we're bankrupt I'm personally I had no money like I'd never paid myself well cuz I always thought my money was in the company, right?

And then the company value was wiped out. And so I was like, "Okay, I have to

out. And so I was like, "Okay, I have to build this back."

And we went on an absolute tear. Like we

didn't lose a pitch for like 6 months.

We won everyone in the sort of luxury space. We're doing LVMH, all the car

space. We're doing LVMH, all the car brands, so much e-commerce. And quite

quickly it was like, okay, bring everyone back of government, but uh at the same time, let's let's hire like crazy. And we just went on this tear.

crazy. And we just went on this tear.

And then I had an offer come in through a private equity firm who were like, "We want to buy 49% of the business for X million. You get to take this off the

million. You get to take this off the table, but go on and buy lots of agencies and do a massive buy and build."

build." And I was very close to accepting it.

And then I think at the end I was a bit like, I'm not passionate enough to do another 10 years.

Yeah.

And so I also thought, and I would say this to a lot of entrepreneurs, there are moments in time where you should take some chips off the table.

And I was like, okay, I will sell and I'll be 30.

Mhm.

And I'll have these skills and I can I can go again if I want to. So, um had a pretty competitive uh process and then sold the business to a company called Crowd.

Okay. Do you share any numbers of the exit?

Yeah, it was about 25 million exit and it was a bootstrap business. So, it was myself, Ben Asins, uh who's my business partner and we gave equity to the staff.

That's awesome.

Yeah. It was an awesome exit. It was an awesome journey and story like no regrets. Yeah. Was there anything that

regrets. Yeah. Was there anything that uh like how you changed as you related to money or you know any huge fund splurge that you did after you know the

money hit the bank account?

Um what a funny question. Yeah. I mean

I'm not proud of this in any way, shape or form. Um but I had one splurge. Um,

or form. Um but I had one splurge. Um,

and I felt like I needed it and but buying it in many ways showed me that I didn't and will never need it, which was I bought a Richard Mill watch. Um, okay.

Like pretty pretty close after selling.

And for some reason, like I bought it and I was like, "This is going to be amazing." Like, you know, I wear it

amazing." Like, you know, I wear it everywhere and it will like signal, you know, and then I wore it on my like uh wedding day and I've never worn it again.

But you still own it?

Yeah, I still own it. I'm not I don't really have a choice. I obviously bought it close to the top of the market for watches and so it's not worth what I bought it for. So I will sell it

whenever you know it's it makes sense to sell. But I think it was important and I

sell. But I think it was important and I do think to an extent you kind of have to go through that. You have to make good money to realize you don't want good money in many ways. Like it's nice to have but

you don't end up spending loads of money. I only spend money on holidays.

money. I only spend money on holidays.

Yeah. I mean it's a great thing to spend money on. That's how I feel as well. I I

money on. That's how I feel as well. I I

think there's something about like changing your relationship to money, making some of these big purchases. Like

I had a fear that if I made some big splurge purchase, that would be like the start of the slippery slope and I would

lose my like bootstrapped super frugal, you know, I can live on basically nothing mental and like that would go away and I would turn into something different some to someone different. And

so it ended up like I would avoid spending money ultimately out of fear. M

and so it took a few big uh like splurges and and uh usually travel related um to be something like oh wait no I can do this and then still be the

same person and it's not like oh well now I always have to fly first class or you know whatever else it is and it'll be fine like I I actually still have

agency and can do all of that. And so

then I I felt like I understood myself better and had much more confidence after doing um you know some big splurges.

I think that's true. I mean I would say I'm much more confident person in realizing that I didn't need money and these things to make me happy whereas I thought originally maybe I did and there not nothing to take away from

the fact that I think making money it's such a bizarre topic but people seem to think it's bad. I think making money is is a great thing. You give yourself incredible agency in life. Uh but yeah,

I mean nowadays if I'm honest, you know, I have investments and all the rest of it, but it's like my holidays might cost X. Everything else in my life is down

X. Everything else in my life is down here. Like I literally spend money on

here. Like I literally spend money on nothing. Um apart from always nice

nothing. Um apart from always nice holidays.

Yeah, I like it. You know what you're saying about making money being a good thing. It's such a good thing for you as

thing. It's such a good thing for you as an individual.

Um and then also we all do it by creating value for other people like so it just means it means that you created a lot of value for a lot of other people. I mean, it's it's so funny that

people. I mean, it's it's so funny that that it is demonized so much because unless you're like the the the oneoffs, the 1% or whatever who get it through doing something bad.

Yeah. You're doing like corporate takeovers and selling it out like which is a very slim but in the main you make a lot of money by providing a huge amount of value, right?

And so I feel like nowadays in in in what I do now like I I I effectively help entrepreneurs to level up their businesses. Yes, it's expensive to work

businesses. Yes, it's expensive to work with me, but at the same time, the value that I'm delivering for it, I always feel very comfortable and happy with that decision. And so, yeah, I think

that decision. And so, yeah, I think it's a great thing as long as you're providing the value.

Yeah, that makes sense. So, you know, we've got all this time of you as an entrepreneur and then you and working for all of the biggest brands and all of that, it feels to me like you then said, "Wait a second. I'm going to take this

skill set that I've amassed over more than a decade and uh I'm going to be the brand."

brand." Yeah. I mean kind of the there was a

Yeah. I mean kind of the there was a small uh pit stop in the middle where I kind of had the uh realization that I wanted to build personal brand and that

I wanted to do that sort of stuff. And

so I had started posting on on on LinkedIn. But at the same time we were

LinkedIn. But at the same time we were also growing this company Lotty, my brother and I.

And what did Lotty do? Lotty helps um elderly people find care and it builds software for care facilities and care homes and and home care and stuff. And

that was a wild experience that kind of hit me out of nowhere because my brother who's younger than me this time uh he had said I have this amazing idea. Our

family had had a lot of problems in in elder care and I was like okay well I've got experience. I know digital. He knows

got experience. I know digital. He knows

care. I know I would be able to raise money. And so we joined up and um that

money. And so we joined up and um that business I mean it's a bit of a blur but it went from him and I to about 50

people in a year and a 45 million valuation and then in the second year it went to 70 and like nowadays it's like 100 plus people you know hundreds of

millions of valuation um making you know millions and millions a year and providing a huge amount of value. Yeah.

And so when we got when we got to like 80 90 people, you know, we were in this position where the company was doing really well and I almost blinked and I was like, "Wow, where did three years go?" And like this was Will's mission,

go?" And like this was Will's mission, right?

You know, it wasn't my mission.

But I was glad to help him and do it with him and build an amazing company together. But I I sort of said to him

together. But I I sort of said to him over a coffee, I was like, "Look, I mean, you're off. You're I mean, you're beyond off to the races. You know,

you're killing it. Um, and you'll go on to build I believe my brother will go on to build a multi-billion pound company there. Um, and so I said, "Look, I'm

there. Um, and so I said, "Look, I'm going to take a step back and I'm going to take the break that I was meant to have after selling Verb, right?" Oh, cuz you just dove right in.

right?" Oh, cuz you just dove right in.

It was like day like back to back. It

was, you know, I was in my earnout and I started lying at the beginning of my earnout and so it was like finishing verb starting ly overlapped. Uh, and so

I'd never had time off and then I went backpacking solo. Um, and it was in that time that I remember like I put

12 slots back up for one-on-one training with me at $2,000 a slot and they sold out all of them within like a day and I had 30 emails being like, "Can I book a slot?"

Right.

And I was like, "Oh, this is interesting."

Yeah.

Um, so yeah.

Yeah. you're seeing 24 $25,000 show up instantly and then another $50,000 or more of demand be like, "Hey, where's like where are the slots? Promise me

slots."

I was like, "I'm kind of in like in Guatemala at the moment like traveling.

I I don't really want to be locked to my computer." Um, and it gave me like the

computer." Um, and it gave me like the the principle that I think a lot of people don't understand about business is like if you have enough demand and there's a limited supply, you control the price.

Yeah.

And so I was like, how far can I push it to test the demand? And it turned out I could push it quite a long way.

Um, and that's kind of where I was like, okay, this is a really serious opportunity in career. So, I'm

going to finish out my travels and I'm going to go back and totally lock in on the idea of doing this.

And so, that was a year into building personal brand. I then launched a

personal brand. I then launched a newsletter a year in like I always think my only regret is not launching earlier.

Yeah.

Because now it's like the it's like I I don't know. It's like the piping. It's

don't know. It's like the piping. It's

everything in the business. But I

launched that. I came back from traveling, launched that, launched Instagram, and I was like, "Okay, I need to build a product that allows me to teach in a group setting."

Mhm.

And then I started sort of investigating the cohort style business that I eventually ended up launching.

Yeah. Let's dive into the cohort style business. And then after that, I want to

business. And then after that, I want to go back to like tactics for growing on LinkedIn specifically. But what's the

LinkedIn specifically. But what's the business model today of how you go from the attention on LinkedIn uh all the way through to you know someone paying you

for your uh for your program?

So I effectively create high quality really well researched very strategic content on how to grow and that might be how to grow as a

person it might be how to grow in your resilience it might be how to launch a startup might be how to find an idea how to validate. It's very entrepreneurial

to validate. It's very entrepreneurial content and it's there's a there's a certain strand to it that's about personal brand and that's what I release and so much of it is just highquality

free educational content and so I have built this big audience so I got a billion views last year across my content which I now effectively have one

strategy which is I use the content to garner views and attention and build audience. I then say if you want to go

audience. I then say if you want to go deeper on this then subscribe to my newsletter and my newsletter it's once a week sent on Sunday very entrepreneurial very tactical like how to build how to

grow and from there I do a Thursday evening webinar no matter where I am in the world I did it this morning because it's normally my evening so I did it this morning from the hotel wherever I

am I will do a webinar and two to three thousand people turn up to the webinars and I will do some form of topic that is either interesting to me at the or specific to personal brand or

business. And at the end, I basically

business. And at the end, I basically say to anyone who's ever been in one, I say, "Look, if you're going to do one of my cohorts, they are incredibly hard work. They take up a huge amount of your

work. They take up a huge amount of your time, but if you put in the work, you will transform in 10 weeks." And then that's the only plug and that's it. And

I have no sales team. There's no

follow-up. There's no anything. It's

just you sign up or you don't.

And so people sign up there on the webinar.

Yeah.

And then is are the cohorts like open and close? Uh

and close? Uh yeah. So the model is and I think it's

yeah. So the model is and I think it's really it's really important to understand this in that people don't buy something people don't buy things unless

there's like a real reason to buy it.

And so I always ask entrepreneurs like why would I buy your product today and not tomorrow, right?

And they're like what do you mean? I'm

like well that's often the challenge that you have is like how do you get someone to buy now? And so the thing with the cohort model is that we do four 10 weeks a year and that's it. So if you

miss it, you miss it and then you have to start again in like four months time.

And so people are people will self- select whether that time of the year works for them. And then sometimes I'll take a break and so it might be a six-month wait for the next cohort. And

so that that urgency pushes people to to sign up.

Yeah, that makes sense. We had that in the early days of growing kit where you know I did a lot of direct sales to recruit people onto the platform but it was exactly what you're saying. It's

like oh you can I I can sign up tomorrow or I don't know next month next year.

Like there's not really and you're like well I'll give you you're trying to like add scarcity in some way and they're like I don't know next month sounds fine you know. And then webinars was the thing

know. And then webinars was the thing for us that we would it gave us an event to market and drive everyone to and then through a bonus or you know something we could get it where it's like no it is

genuinely way better for you if you sign up today you know or part you know part of this this mini launch basically instead of just leaving it open-ended.

Yeah. Because if it's open-ended especially with you know software product I'll just sign up next month or the month after which rounds to never.

Yeah. Which rounds never. they could

discover a new product, whatever it is.

And so, a lot of the time historically, I've been advising authors.

And so, you have that perfect thing with an author. It's like, I want them to buy

an author. It's like, I want them to buy my book right now, and the person's like, I'll buy it at some undefined point in the future. Yeah.

And so, authors then release, you know, accompanying value ads with the book, but then they leave them open forever.

And so, it's like again, I could just get the value ad in a year's time. And

so you have to really to your audience they have to understand that when you say something you mean it.

Whereas like with the author they say you can only get this thing now and then next month they're giving it away again.

You've got to be very very careful that people will trust what you say right and we'll we'll you know we'll act on it.

Yeah. I think Alex Herozi he did a huge webinar for one of his book launches and he had I he hadn't done something like it before and I think he had pushing like a hundred thousand people watching

live. It was insane.

live. It was insane.

But the thing that he really wanted people to leave with, obviously he wanted them to buy his book, right?

That's what it was for. And he put in all this extra value. People thought

that he was going to sell something for like hundreds or thousands of dollars.

And ultimately it was like buy the book in like these little packages and get all this for free. But he was like, you cannot get this, you know, this these

additional values unless you do it right here live on the webinar. and and he just said like I am here to train you that I mean what I say and you should show if I do something live you should show up for it and like you're going to you know

there's going to be tens of thousands of people that email me afterwards saying oh I school drop off whatever else I missed the thing and I wasn't there live and he's going to be like cool well I hope you know when I do another book maybe in a year or two like I hope you make that

one yeah you know and it's you know he he's a master of the the game and I think that it's important it's important to be so honest and so transparent and and then keep your word to your audience

because when you tell them you have a business or you have a product or you're going to do something, if they don't believe you, then the likelihood of building more trust is is and you have to follow it up because there's so much fake scarcity.

Yeah.

Like we we've been running Craft and Commerce uh for 7 years now and this is the first year that we've sold out and people are like, "Oh, I know you're sold out, but like, hey, can I still grab a ticket?" I'm like, "No, we're actually

ticket?" I'm like, "No, we're actually just physically at capacity in the building." Obviously, we're here now.

building." Obviously, we're here now.

And so, I was at the event last night and I'm speaking tonight. It is packed.

It is like packed. And so, you couldn't get more people in, right?

Yeah.

And but I think everyone's used to fake scarcity. And so, they're just like,

scarcity. And so, they're just like, "Oh, you're you're saying that." And

it's like, "Yeah." They're like,

"Yeah." They're like, "Yeah, exactly. A little wink there."

"Yeah, exactly. A little wink there."

And it's just it it's not. And so, finding those ways to be really transparent and authentic and then and put in actual scarcity that matters. Yeah,

matters. Yeah, I think that's important. Okay, so

diving into the business model, what's the price point on the on the program?

The flagship program as it were is the creator accelerator and it's 10 weeks long and in that time I will effectively be training entrepreneurs how to build personal brand. Y

brand. Y with the benefit of you know improving and growing their business which you learn effectively about LinkedIn and newsletter in that 10 weeks and

alongside that we will also tell you how to grow on other channels but the main focus is LinkedIn and so it's like 50 out of the top 100 people on LinkedIn came from our programs which I think is pretty

staggering you know the fastest growing female creator in the world came from my first cohort.

Yeah. Um, and so it's 6,500 for the 10 weeks and then we do have another program which is the digital business accelerator and that is 10,000 for the 10 weeks. And so typically for that

10 weeks. And so typically for that though I don't really market that.

That's to that's to people who are super serious cuz I want like it's amazing when you get you know a group of seven eight figure entrepreneurs together.

Mhm.

Because they they gel and they vibe off each other and they push each other this competitiveness. Whereas if you were to

competitiveness. Whereas if you were to like mix up that group with everyone, it would it wouldn't work.

Yeah. Yeah. The stat on on basically half of the top 100 like the creators coming out of your program is pretty insane.

Yeah. It's mad. It's like completely mad. Um

mad. Um but it also goes to show like on one hand it's a very competitive space.

Yeah. On the other hand, it's still just not that competitive. And it's like this weird duality where I'm like the number of people that I see who take it really seriously who are growing like crazy is

is wildly high.

Yeah. I mean, I was lucky and I mean you say lucky like I chose the platform because I thought it was early, but I was lucky that my assumptions were correct because a lot of time you can make assumptions and they're wrong.

But I was able to be a bit casual when I came to the platform. you know, I I was I was able to make okay content, whereas now everyone has realized that you can

build huge wealth off the back of LinkedIn. And so, it has completely

LinkedIn. And so, it has completely changed the game. Like, you're now up against professional content creators who have teams and systems and processes and researchers and they're making like

they're making textbook level content every day, which is a completely different gear to when I started. And so yes, it's it's uh it's still it's still a huge

opportunity. And I think that

opportunity. And I think that the thing that I think is most fascinating is ordinary entrepreneurs like myself

can become so much greater. You become

you can become extraordinary by building an audience, right?

And so I I talk to entrepreneurs all the time and if you were to ask business owners who you know, what is your greatest challenge? They say new

greatest challenge? They say new business. And so

business. And so always, you know, leads and new business.

Mhm.

And so a normal ordinary entrepreneur, if you want to make your business go faster or better or stronger or more profitable, get more high-quality leads.

And LinkedIn is like waiting for you to create high-quality content. So like if you don't take it now, I do think like all platforms, it will become saturated at a point. And so it's like you should

go all in now.

Mhm. What does it look like to go all in? I mean it's looked different at

in? I mean it's looked different at different times. Um at the beginning I

different times. Um at the beginning I did everything. So I was

did everything. So I was you know writing the hook, the body text or the post. I was writing the CTAs. I

was create creating all the imagery. I

was making carousels and infographics.

And that basically meant I was spending two days out of the week fully just on LinkedIn.

Fully on LinkedIn. And that was the content creation. And then you've got to

content creation. And then you've got to be quite present in engaging people, right? If you ever want to build trust

right? If you ever want to build trust and you have to have a a a rapport and you know discourse with your community and your audience. And for me it took me

a couple of months to work it out. But

after a period I realized that what people were missing was highquality content you know and especially in the era of AI everything's become easier.

volume has become easier, but in some ways it's taught people to be quite poor at content creation. The example I always give is uh so I live in London

and whenever I go around London with my dad, he knows every street with no phone. He knows every street.

Everywhere he's going, he knows. I know

nothing. And it's cuz I grew up with Google Maps.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, we don't we don't memorize phone numbers. We don't memorize

numbers. We don't memorize I don't know my wife's phone number.

It's never changed. She's for 13 years she's had the same number. I don't know it. And so, but the same thing is

it. And so, but the same thing is happening with content.

So, because all the AI tools are out, people are making what I would consider like 80% quality.

They're not putting the new You can do 80% quality in 30 minutes.

Exactly. And so, whereas with me, I was like, okay, I'm going to create the best content in the world on personal brand growth, business growing, startup, scaleups, delegation, automation. And

so, I was like paying researchers. I was

doing hours of research. I was creating unique intellectual property and frameworks for my content. And I

remember I remember the first post that that exploded. Um, and it got 24,000

that exploded. Um, and it got 24,000 likes in a day, which was obviously crazy. And it was a new style as well.

crazy. And it was a new style as well.

And I'm going to come on to why that's so important. It was a cheat sheet,

so important. It was a cheat sheet, which didn't exist at the time.

Uh, and it was it was exploring all the different methods of productivity improvement. And so 24,000 likes in a

improvement. And so 24,000 likes in a day. I gained 20,000 followers that day.

day. I gained 20,000 followers that day.

I was like, "That's wild."

"That's wild." I was like, "That is wild."

Okay, that worked.

I was like, "Okay, that worked." And

then I had lots of other stuff on that week and I was like, "I'm canceling everything. I'm like going into my own

everything. I'm like going into my own lab, headphones in, and I just made so much high quality content in that style, this new like cheat sheet style." And

that's when I, you know, I went from 80,000 to 350 in the back end of that year. Because what I realized is that

year. Because what I realized is that with all social media platforms, the platform wants the, as in LinkedIn, want the platform to be new and interesting and different continuously,

right?

And so they prioritize different types of content. And I realized that the

of content. And I realized that the longer that someone dwelled on your content, the more it's likely to be distributed. Yeah. And so I was like,

distributed. Yeah. And so I was like, that's like watch time on YouTube.

It's like watch time on YouTube.

Exactly. So like I had that insight and then I was like anytime someone posts a carousel and I would crunch the numbers myself in Excel and I would take other people's content manually pre any of the

tools. I was like carousels are like

tools. I was like carousels are like seven times a normal post and I was like I'm just going to do carousels every day. Well, and I think someone would

day. Well, and I think someone would assume, oh, LinkedIn wants more, some product manager at LinkedIn wants more carousels, and so they have adjusted the algorithm to be like, carousels are

good. And I don't work at LinkedIn, so I

good. And I don't work at LinkedIn, so I don't know what's happening exactly. My

assumption is that they're saying time on site and time on posts and all of that is good. And carousels happen to be very good at driving that because you're like swiping through it.

And so everyone's like, well, what's the thing that works in the algorithm? And

usually what you see it's like very high quality content that gets people to stop scrolling and engage with it and stay engaged for a longer than normal period of time. Exactly. And I think that that

of time. Exactly. And I think that that that was like broadly my insight at the time. And so I was crunching all this

time. And so I was crunching all this this data myself manually which when eventually like when eventually my account became big and like you know a years later people be like how did you

grow so fast back then? And it's like I put in more hours than everyone else on the 1%s of everything, right?

Like I had I had like sheets and sheets of the best hooks I'd ever seen anywhere. Sheets and sheets of um

anywhere. Sheets and sheets of um pre-validated content, which is a topic I talk about a lot, which is like I want, you know, if you're an entrepreneur and you come to me and you

own a marketing agency or or something like that, you need to design your content strategy. So it's like what what

content strategy. So it's like what what would your client want to read? They

might want to read about marketing strategy. They might want to read about

strategy. They might want to read about paid marketing. They might want to read

paid marketing. They might want to read about organic. They might want to see

about organic. They might want to see historical marketing or psychology of marketing. And so, you have to start

marketing. And so, you have to start piecing together your personal brand.

And for me at the time, I was like, okay, I'm deeply interested in loads of things, but what content already works?

What content has easy lift? Like, I

don't want to push things uphill. I want

to like be in the flow. And so I designed my personal brand around six topics that were already super successful and I was obviously like

caught the AI wave. I learned in public and so I remember posting and being like I'm going to become an expert in AI over the next 60 days and my audience just came with me on that journey and by 60 days I was an expert and everyone was

like this content has been the best content of the year. Um and so for me like pre-validated content was huge.

finding things that have already worked, putting your own spin on it. I think the action and the habit, you said this in your talk last night, like there is no substitute for the consistency of this of this stuff. Like,

you know, you've built a business over 13 years or, you know, like if you were to look at your year one self, like it didn't look great, you know,

and like so comparing your year one self to Nathan Barry, like that's that's a losing game. Um and so building the

losing game. Um and so building the habit of posting every day, building an audience that expect to receive awesome content every day, these things became like cornerstone for the

teaching. And so I then wrap that

teaching. And so I then wrap that content, you know, uh system into the program. And my greatest hope is that

program. And my greatest hope is that entrepreneurs can do it without it taking over their life. Like

I I bet we'll see it when we're here at the conference, but like around lunchtime, you'll see loads of people like on their phone commenting and all this sort of stuff. And it's cuz they haven't systemized it and so they've let

it take over and therefore they're not leveraging it in a in a way it's taking all of their time. And so I try and teach people about like systems, building micro teams. Like my keynote

tonight is like how to build a creative business as an entrepreneur. M

so like how do you understand you know building teams delegating whereas creators tend to be more do everything themselves yeah they they often came from being a freelancer and so they're bringing a freelancer mindset into it

and they have that mentality of I don't want to spend money cuz I want to make profit and it's like okay you got to spend a little money to make a bit of money you know um so yeah that was the

the the the sort of genesis of uh the brand going yeah I love that if you could instill like or install one or two systems in any creator's business related to, you know, growth on LinkedIn

or another social platform. What would

those systems be?

I think it would be don't make the content live.

Okay. I shouldn't just pull, you know, pull up axe or LinkedIn and, you know, type it on the fly.

Like definitely not. And like I know a lot of people who make their content first thing in the morning and I'm like I find that really challenging as a as a concept. So I do mine in like fixed batches. I'll do

three hours, four hours.

Yes. I do ideation only. I'll do postw writing only and design briefs and then I'll do approvals. So it's split into three specific batches which just means that like if you're doing ideation

headphones in or walking I do a lot of like ideating while walking. Yeah.

Um and you just become you get such better ideas. You can then take them

better ideas. You can then take them through into the writing and then take them through the design. And the other thing I would say is like surrender the posting of it to someone or something

because maybe it's an automation or maybe it's a VA but the first thing in the morning I want to do is work on the hardest challenge in my business. I

don't want to distract myself on social media with all these like bizarre dopamine hits and comparisons to other also where you're like wait what am I even here for and like 20 minutes later you're like I showed up here to post my

LinkedIn post for the day or my Instagram post. You're like wait like I

Instagram post. You're like wait like I forgot that for the last hour.

But I've seen my competitor got 10 more likes than me and like you know like you don't want that. You don't want that energy and you don't want that dopamine hit like that in the morning. you want

to do your best work in the morning and then have a system in place that posts your post that day. And if you want to, you can jump in and do some commenting maybe or you can have a team that

support you in doing most of that work themselves because as we know like nowadays if you're trying to scale something you could use something like Delelfi and just pull all of my, you

know, thousands of social media posts, my notion database, you know, millions of hours and me on video and you can just make me.

Yeah.

And that's what we did.

That's wild. Yeah. I I think both those systems make a lot of sense. So on this show, we do two two types of conversations usually. Uh one is kind of

conversations usually. Uh one is kind of this expert interview that we've been doing and then the other is like a coaching style episode where usually there's an entrepreneur at some level and trying to achieve a result and we'll get up and and coach through it.

I want to do that but in reverse.

So you have so much of what you do is helping entrepreneurs who are running successful businesses grow personal brands, you know, particularly on LinkedIn. Uh, I've got a

personal brand that's done well, but I'm I'm in this position of um, you know, spending 50, 60 hours a week building a company. Yeah. And then also over here,

company. Yeah. And then also over here, I know the power of personal brands. And

I know that a professional creator, like a lead of a professional creator, is probably worth more to me than maybe anyone else on the planet. when you

think about the value of them being in kit in the creator network and um you know I I coown an agency with Sahil Bloom and Shane Martin called Paper Boy which I've worked with for a long time.

Yep. Exactly. and you know and so all of this right and so I'm thinking you know I have to get very serious about building my personal brand particularly on LinkedIn but it can't consume my life because

exactly you know I've got to we're pushing 50 million a year in revenue from kit and so I I like that needs to be the focus and so I'd be really curious what advice and coaching you would have in that

situation of like I've already picked LinkedIn as a platform already starting to double down on content our mutual friend Daniel Priestley you know he's someone who has had all this content for years and now he's

really really starting to blow up as he he brings it out. I feel like I'm in a similar uh situation to that. So, I'll

stop talking and hand it over to you.

I would agree. I'd say you and you and Dan are similar. I I'd launch lunch the other day and we were talking about his his you know he's talked about personal brand for 10 years or something

and yet his personal brand has only really exploded recently and he said to you didn't he was like I'm just borrowing other people's audiences and that's the you know his his stylistic decision that his own content probably

wasn't breaking through but now it is because he platformed it right and so you know Diary of the CEO Ali he's been on Chris Williamson's podcast recently it's a strategy that I'd never really

thought of, you know, but he had such he had such good ideas and intellectual property that were unique to him, right, that people want to hear and that's why the videos do really well. And in

podcasting, if you're you know, this is my second podcast ever.

Yeah. You've you said the last time you've been a guest on a podcast, the first time was like many years ago.

Five years ago, I did a podcast for a dyslexia and ADHD podcast. They were

like, "We want to launch it. I have

dyslexia and ADHD and I don't really talk about it very often." And so I did their first episode to help them get going, but I didn't.

And then now this is your second time being a guest on a podcast.

It's wild. I mean, I run my own show and so I just don't I've never got round to it. But I think yeah, Dan's an

it. But I think yeah, Dan's an interesting uh an interesting one. Dan

Priestley was in with me in January 2023. Daniel Priestley, Simon Squib,

2023. Daniel Priestley, Simon Squib, Eric Partaker, Dan Murray, and Tim Armoo.

Yeah. The six of us didn't know each other and we joined a WhatsApp group together which Eric Partaker put together.

None of us had a LinkedIn following.

Barely any of us had any followers.

We're two years on from that moment now.

Simon Squid might be one of the biggest entrepreneurs like on the planet in terms of viewership. Priestley again the same thing. Tim Aru huge audience. Eric

same thing. Tim Aru huge audience. Eric

Parartaker same as me LinkedIn following newsletter.

Um, and then Dan Murray, like big personal brand as well. And I think that's like if you find a good group of people who want to do the same thing, partner up and get it done.

One one quick thing on that, people hear stories like that and they're like, well, I'm not friends with Simon Squib or Dan Priestley or or whoever else. Um, and I have a story

whoever else. Um, and I have a story like that of, you know, my like core group is includes people like James Clear and all of that. But the key thing is we formed a core group before we were

anyone and we built each other through this whole process. So it's not like okay

whole process. So it's not like okay shoot how do I go look at the keynote speakers of this conference try to become friends with them and even though they have a following or influence like 100 times mine it's like no that's not

it at all. Like you find people who are at your level who have similar goals and then you pour into each other and then you end up in this situation where like oh yeah it worked for all of us. It's

It's wild. But like, yeah, to your point, like you wouldn't you wouldn't have thought to team up with Dan Priestley, Simon Squid, Tim Armu, and and Eric Party. I mean, Eric had like

17,000 followers on LinkedIn from being in business for 20 years, right?

He had no following, and yet he was like, "Guys, I think we can do this together." Like, he was a big

together." Like, he was a big motivational force.

Um, but I suppose to your point about the systemization of personal brand, I adore your content and it's super technical in many ways. Like I think it's, you know, it's the sort of stuff that I love watching and listening to

and and and and it really makes me think and I think to an extent you would probably need to be crystal clear about what it is that you talk about so that you could create

a system so that your team could do 80% of the work. And so for me it's like I talk about AI startups and scaleups. I

talk about um personal brand. I talk

about digital businesses and I talk about um like leadership and culture.

Mhm.

They're they're the things I talk about and we were able to synthesize effectively my five pillars, the types of posts I do and what I would talk

about within those pillars. And so the team are really able to do 80% of the work.

Right.

So like ideation I would say nowadays I'm heavily involved in and I'm heavily involved in approvals.

Right.

Right. I don't do the middle part anymore. My team does the writing, the

anymore. My team does the writing, the creating and I just approve and give feedback. You're the same. like you

feedback. You're the same. like you

would have to be very very clear about what you wanted to talk about and then you'd have to get into the habit of posting more frequently than you do.

Grace, who is the uh head of marketing for Dire of CEO and a lot of you know flight studio and a lot of what Steven does. Uh we were having dinner when I

does. Uh we were having dinner when I was out in London visiting you and there's just this funny moment where you know Haley on my team was like hey Grace pull up Nathan's uh social profiles and like just give it a little criticism and

she's like and she pulls up she's like is this uh like an example of a carousel she's like is this you know what you usually post like yeah that's the one that I just posted and she goes

says five days ago in my world that doesn't count as just posted and I was like yep I mean that team you know the I mean Cuz so Steve I mean I don't know Steve but

we're similar age both ran agencies in our 20ies and he got on the personal brand hype way before you know people would say like he became famous but it's

like no he he engineered becoming famous with very very tactical work but they post like two or three times a day on every platform the volume but to your point of like

increase the frequency uh all of that what what are the other things that you know as you're coaching entrepor reneurs through building those personal brands that you would really emphasize or and you can make it very specific to me if you want.

Well, I thought one of the best pieces of uh content you ever produced was the creative flywheel.

Um the essays and the the Yeah. Everything

from there, which I don't have much on LinkedIn about it.

Exactly. Yeah. I mean,

that's where you're going.

That's kind of where I'm going with it.

So a lot of your stuff is like deeply understanding the mechanism with which you turn organic traffic into deplatformed like super fans and I would say that so much of my strategy was

built off reading your essays and yet that stuff is not on LinkedIn.

If that stuff was on LinkedIn, the dwell time on that stuff would be so much greater than most other content because it's it's depth. And so your challenge would be once you exhaust all the essays and stuff that you've created

previously, a bit like Daniel Priestley is doing nowadays. He's putting all of his 10 years of writing onto social, you would then be faced with I have to create new content and you would just

have to find a way of creating as good a content now as then, as the library, but now you make 50 million a year and I don't know what you're making then, but not that. Yeah, exactly. So, it's all

not that. Yeah, exactly. So, it's all about, you know, amazing team and that's why I think that, you know, I teach entrepreneurs how to scale their creator side. Teaching creators to

scale to be entrepreneurs is very different because they have to learn the opposite thing to each other, you know?

Yes. Oh, yes.

Like they are they're both good at the thing and the others then the other side is bad at the other thing, right? And but when you combine those

right? And but when you combine those two skill sets, the leverage is absolutely insane.

Yeah. I mean it's what I'm going to talk about tonight in the conference to an extent which is like uh I feel like entrepreneurs are very good at spotting

rising tide moments. So the most famous of all is like uh Jeff Bezos 1994 you know web statistics 2,300% a year growth for web usage. He's like okay

well I should build a business in that builds Amazon like huge blow up.

He didn't even he doesn't know what business but he's like I have to build a business on the internet.

Yeah. and he thinks probably an easy product. Books are easy, fit through

product. Books are easy, fit through doors, you know, easy packaging. And

then goes on to build effectively like e-commerce of the future. Mobile phones

19 like 85 by 1990 there's like 25 million the app store, you know, like 2 years to 50 billion downloads or

something. No, 50 million downloads.

something. No, 50 million downloads.

It's like if you can get if you can spot where these these you know consumer trends and technological trends are going and position yourself there that's sort of the skill of entrepreneurship

because they're then able to pull teams around them and they're able to delegate and systemize. Whereas creators

systemize. Whereas creators burn themselves out on the business side because they don't know how to create a system around their around their um around their personal brand. But they

they could do a lot to learn from each other. And I sit in the middle of those

other. And I sit in the middle of those two camps. So I spend a lot of time in

two camps. So I spend a lot of time in the entrepreneurship world and I spend a lot of time in the creator world. And I

see I see the inspiration in both.

Yeah. I like that. Okay. I want to push you. Let's get really specific because I

you. Let's get really specific because I think the creator flywheels examples uh there's not a lot of people out there talking about flywheels. I do have really a lot of them, but like what are

the what are the specific formats or types of content or how would you do the hooks around flywheels? You know, if we wanted this to really grow on LinkedIn, the most important thing to get our

heads around right now is that the platform will have a state today that will be different in 2 months, right?

And so the advice is always going out of uh it's like out of style.

It's going out of style. So a few years ago, I invested in a company that does data for LinkedIn.

What's the name of it?

It's called Say What, and it helps people write and all the rest of it. And

I invest in that so that I could produce a report four times a year on the algorithm. And so at the moment right

algorithm. And so at the moment right now, carousels perform two times better than any other piece of content.

And then it's infographics and cheat sheets second, text and photo third.

Video is around there. LinkedIn are

going to push video heavily and they have been for years and it hasn't quite worked. Um, but if you're posting high

worked. Um, but if you're posting high quality content, like if you took the creative flywheel stuff and made it into a carousel, that's your best bet, right?

The other things I'd say is like the the hook is about um it's about doing exactly what it says. It's pulling

someone off the feed. Like if you're looking down the feed and you cover the rest of your post and just read the hook, is that good enough to stop you?

Right?

And so I say to people like it's not the algorithm. Like your content is [ __ ]

algorithm. Like your content is [ __ ] you know? And so like the the you got to

you know? And so like the the you got to be really harsh. You got to look in the mirror and say, "Is my content good enough that it would stop me in the feed?"

feed?" And if it's not, then you have a content problem, right?

And so I would say that, you know, your content would be around conversion. It

would be around growth. It would be around the tactics for deplatforming.

Like you could probably make an incredible brand around the insight that I have 1.1 million followers on LinkedIn and on an average day I might get three or 4 thousand likes.

Okay? like where is my audience, you know, like I can't reach them with my own audience. And so I find that the the reason I regret not starting a

newsletter earlier is that the way I see social media is it will always change.

And so I should do everything I can every single day to take as many people off social media onto something that doesn't have an algorithm because the algorithm is both useful

because it spreads the word, but then it constricts you. I can't even talk to my

constricts you. I can't even talk to my own followers, right?

And so I think you could make amazing content on that and that would be very aligned with your business and yeah um that Yep. I think that makes a lot of

that Yep. I think that makes a lot of sense because then it's just the value of email and you know which uh is valuable both to me and to the creator.

Exactly. Yeah. Nice value trade.

Uh what about like as as you what you're seeing you know to bring people off of the platform things like you on Instagram using you know DM automation that's you know comment flywheel to get

the Many shots. Yeah.

Yep. Exactly. Does ManyHat work on LinkedIn?

No.

No, they don't have that. Is there

anyone that automates that or is that really a manual?

There's been a few at the moment. I

would say no. Doesn't mean that they won't be one. Um LinkedIn a bizarre company. They're not particularly great

company. They're not particularly great at the moment technologically and supporting that stuff. But so for example, I just take the view that I want to do that stuff badly enough that I pay a VA to go and reply to all the

comments.

Okay. And just DM everybody.

DM everyone. Post it. agonizing, but you know, if it's if you're building a really good business, paying an a VA, you know, $500 a week or something to do that work is worth it.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. But those

things of like those comments are counting as engagement that's feeding the algorithm of that post.

Yes. A lot of people do that style. I

mean, I wouldn't say that I necessarily do that style a lot. I do something slightly different, but you will have people doing like 50 best GBT prompts or or or you know the best way to design on Canva or you know the best sales tactics

and it'll be like comment sales and you'll get it and it yeah the post will get you know 300 likes, 1,000 comments and the post will get like pinged out continuously. I think that that is

continuously. I think that that is people are getting tired of that okay as a strategy. But what the the strategy I've always taken, and it's so funny, last week I sat down with one of the

biggest creators in the world, and he was like, "I can't make LinkedIn work."

And I was like, "Yeah, but your content is lightweight. It's like uh

is lightweight. It's like uh you know, when you're posting inspirational quotes all day, how can you expect someone to buy into your business, right?" You know,

right?" You know, so I was like, why don't we make really indepth educational experiences for your audience? He did it and he's now getting

audience? He did it and he's now getting like two or three thousand subs a week on newsletter. And it's like, okay,

on newsletter. And it's like, okay, LinkedIn is working for you now, right?

But you got to post it to depth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Depth is key.

And that's always been my approach.

Like, uh, so many of the things that I've written are like these long essays, you know, it's 4,000 words diving into a full concept, which you can absolutely do a light version of that, which is

still going to be five times the depth or 10 times the depth of average content on LinkedIn.

Yeah. And I think that the more that AI becomes, you know, used and these sort of AI image generating tools are used, the nuance, the intellectual property, the depth of your content is what will

make you stand out. So, no one really grows as fast as we grew in our first year on LinkedIn these days. But we're

still some of the fastest growing accounts, my my my friends and I. And I

still think that people will be like, "Oh, it's cuz you like comment on each other." And it's like guys, if you think

other." And it's like guys, if you think that's the thing, like if you think that is the the tactic or the strategy that gets our accounts to do better, then like you you fundamentally don't

understand the value exchange with your customer. And so also I would say to

customer. And so also I would say to your point with James Clear, which I find so amazing that he was in your group before he was James Clear, it's like if you back your friends, then you support them in everything.

You know, like if my friend was opening a lemonade stand, I'd go and support it.

like me commenting on a great piece of content they've made. Like if that's the hill people are going to die on, then you know in entrepreneurship, you take every opportunity, every angle, every chance that you can get to grow your

business right?

And yet when it comes to to social people seem to have this like a, you know, suddenly for the first time in their life, they're the most authentic person ever. And I always think it's

person ever. And I always think it's like you should be working for yourself and creating the best opportunity for yourself and supporting your friends.

You shouldn't try and limit that stuff.

Yeah. I I totally agree. A lot of listeners are going to want to know about your team and specifically how you're building a team.

When we uh when I was out at your studio, you were talking about how deliberate you are about building a team inhouse for the type of content you want to produce and all that. So, tell me about that philosophy and then the team

that you've built.

So, the in-house thing is because I think that I like to have control and I like to build for the long term. Mhm.

And so when I mean build for the long term, I plan on building my personal brand forever.

Like it's that's the thing. It's pretty pretty closely tied to you. So you're like, "So long as I'm breathing, I'd like to have this."

this." It's an asset that I think grows in value continuously. It compounds in

value continuously. It compounds in value continuously. It gives me an

value continuously. It gives me an unfair advantage, outsized opportunity everywhere I go, no matter what. And so

I think I'm going to be all in on that forever now. Like I have I did a book

forever now. Like I have I did a book deal last year. The personal brand was huge in that, but the personal brand will be the thing that drives that. And

so the long-term thing is like I could hire agencies and freelancers and all the rest of it, but I want my team who are with me and I feel like they will be with me for a long time to become incredible. I want to support them and

incredible. I want to support them and give them everything they want so that we come together on a mission of you know building this this personal brand and achieving our goals with our

customers. And so in my team I have um

customers. And so in my team I have um my sort of chief of staff who she is just unreal operationally organization

like administrative everything. She like

predicts things that I need before I need them. She you know she will be in

need them. She you know she will be in my email before I'm in it. She'll be

she'll give people things that they wanted from me and that gives me freedom of like head space. Um she runs the business broadly. Now I then have Josh

business broadly. Now I then have Josh Saunders who's been with me for ages.

Like he was my first personal brand manager when he was like 23 and I've taught him to think like me, but also he's taught me so much about writing.

And so he runs my content now. And so

nothing can go out unless it goes through him. And then we have uh my

through him. And then we have uh my podcast lead, Rosie, who's incredible.

And then we have editors like Tom and Ethan and others who are sort of the backbone of the content creation. And

then I'm lucky in that I do own a personal brand agency and that agency works for like some of the biggest creators in the world and so I do plug into them for support as well.

Uh so they have a designer, they have um you know people who will do the engagement out of hours and and all the rest of it. So I for example, and this is obviously mad at the stage I'm in now, but I can go on holiday for 3

weeks, not check my phone, come back and we're like on track. Everything's on

track. And that is where I wanted to get to. Um the the the plan for me if I'm

to. Um the the the plan for me if I'm honest and I think it will be realized soon is like I wanted to build a startup uh launcher.

Okay incubator like an incubator of sorts. I would be involved in the businesses and so now I have audience I have like all the structure and we have been launching businesses and I that's what I want to

do moving forwards. I want to build a personal brand. I want to do and teach

personal brand. I want to do and teach and train entrepreneurs and at the same time like launch businesses that I find interesting.

I love that. What are the metrics that you look at on say a daily or weekly basis and then how do you align your team to care about those metrics?

I think that the the golden metric for LinkedIn for us has always been daily follower growth.

Okay. Because reach we don't care about uh like comments we don't care about likes we don't care about. like that all of that stuff will kind of line up with follower growth. So it's follower growth

follower growth. So it's follower growth and then it's repost ratio. Okay, so the repost, you know, if back in the day I would always say like if in the first hour you have a 20% repost ratio. So 20%

repost to likes, the post is going to go viral.

And nowadays it's not too too, you know, uh different. But it it makes it takes a

uh different. But it it makes it takes a different mindset to create content that's repostable. So, I'm creating

that's repostable. So, I'm creating content for my audience that's so good that they want to share it with their audience, right? And so you have to get a little

right? And so you have to get a little bit it can be it has to be a little bit less personal less about me like take me out the content and just make because their audience has no clue who you are

and also like care they care less about that and so I want to create the best tool on team and delegation building and so other entrepreneurs are like this was so

useful to me I want to share it with my audience and that's where I think we have done so well historically is our content is so reshared and so when You look at accounts, I always think these days it's quite

funny. Like you have some that always

funny. Like you have some that always get a couple thousand likes a day every single day, but no one ever reposts their content. And I'm always like the

their content. And I'm always like the the measure as to whether content is good enough is is whether people will share it with their own feed. Um and so that's, you know, repost and follower

growth. And then the golden one, which

growth. And then the golden one, which is obviously like relevant, you know, you're here, um is subscriber growth.

Mhm. To the newsletter.

To the newsletter. Yeah. And so like obviously on kit you can see your uh like where the traffic is coming from your sources.

And so we will have it broken down from like LinkedIn main, LinkedIn featured, LinkedIn post. Sometimes we'll UTM the

LinkedIn post. Sometimes we'll UTM the individual post.

We'll have it from YouTube. Uh and so daily uh subscriber growth and then obviously the better you do, the more likely the creator network is going to work better for you and who you can partner with and up from there.

Yeah. I mean, the the the one I care about most is the subscriber growth count every day, but again, that is fed normally from the growth of the the the followers that day.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think so much of what we do is learn from studying other creators. And so, I'm always curious, who is it that you find really interesting or who are you watching and studying?

That is a great question. the the the advice I give to entrepreneurs always is study and and pre-validate your ideas before you implement them. I had a I did

a podcast with Richard Harpen recently.

He's a multi-billionaire and his first rule in business is copy and pivot.

Okay.

And so when I started out in this sort of creator space, I was like, I want to go as fast as possible with as little work as possible. It's always been my thinking like I'm such a disciple of

like the 8020 principle and so I was studying everyone like everyone I was implementing daily and studying every single day and so like Ali Abdullah I always think is like incredible you know

and I think what he did with his audience and then into his um part-time YouTube academy has been amazing. I'd say that was a huge inspiration at the time. Um, there

was a lady called Sarah Turner who ran a copywriting cohort. Uh, and I I think I

copywriting cohort. Uh, and I I think I saw that it was like 8 weeks or something to learn to be a copywriter.

She did 1 hour a week and it was like seven grand or something. I was like, that is an interesting model.

And I spoke to loads of her customers and they were like, we loved it. We love

her. She's great. And I was like, wow, that's amazing. I didn't want to run a

that's amazing. I didn't want to run a big business. And so I was like, I want

big business. And so I was like, I want a few years off, minimum team, and see how I can, you know, build this thing.

So I saw Sarah Turner's business. I saw

Alli's business and I was like, I'm growing fast on LinkedIn. Can I build the LinkedIn version of what these two have done? And so I knew the model was

have done? And so I knew the model was prevalidated and so I sort of I sat down and I said, "What's important to me?"

And it was like have a tiny team. And so

I didn't have an office until recently.

And it was just like me and two others running a business that made like a million and a half a quarter or something. It was crazy. Um, I think

something. It was crazy. Um, I think there was a point where I had one staff member and we did a 1.7 million quarter, which is obviously like insane.

So, that profit margin is in the 90%, you know, like because the first time we did it, we didn't even have like expensive tooling.

We no ads. It was just organic. Um,

and so I I was very intentional. It was

like tiny team, big business mentality because I was so burnt out by what I'd done before. And so the idea was like I

done before. And so the idea was like I couldn't have a sales team because then I would have like bloat.

I'd have to manage the sales team.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. So I don't know I mean it's quite unique in that I don't know anyone else who does what I do without any sales team. And we have just run ads for the

team. And we have just run ads for the first time.

Wow.

So no ads, no sales team. And so

and and what was revenue last year?

About 10 million.

$10 million in revenue. No sales team.

No ads.

Yeah. So 10 million from just the cohorts. Yeah. The business did better

cohorts. Yeah. The business did better the book deal, the media stuff, etc. But that's good to know that you did better than 10 million. I was worried for you for the co the cohort specifically they like

the combination did about 10 million. Um

and the the the the expense of running a cohort is like your time, the the the systemization, the technology, and then it's the other

coaches. And so unlike other cohorts, I

coaches. And so unlike other cohorts, I was like, "Of course I have I'm not doing sales and ads, so I have more margin." So I was like, "Why don't I

margin." So I was like, "Why don't I just pay the best LinkedIn creators in the world to be the other coaches, right?"

right?" And so the fastest female creator last year is one of the coaches, like three of the fastest growing in the top 20 of the coaches. So everyone is incredible.

the coaches. So everyone is incredible.

Yeah.

And they're speaking from their own lived experience.

Yeah. I mean, they only grew in the last year, right?

You know, like most and so they're like, "This is what works now. this

now. this this happens now. And so the the model is was was kind of half accidental, half prevalidated, like very much learned from a few other creators that I was

studying. And then because we didn't do

studying. And then because we didn't do sales and because we didn't do ads, we had all the margin to pay incredible coaches. Uh and that effectively became

coaches. Uh and that effectively became the model. And

the model. And the first time I launched it, it was meant to be 50 people and we didn't close the checkout and we did 67 sales.

Uh, and I was like, whoa. And then it's basically been, you know, 200 people on the Creative Accelerator a quarter, which has been which has been really good. Um, but nowadays, who do I look

good. Um, but nowadays, who do I look at? Um, I love Mark Manson.

at? Um, I love Mark Manson.

Yeah.

I mean, one, I love his book because I feel like in life, people pay too much mind to everything, you know, like you should try and not have an opinion on everything and and really practice the

art of um, you know, not letting things bother you. I think that if more people

bother you. I think that if more people did that, so many people would be happier and more successful. Um, Dan Martell is a total

successful. Um, Dan Martell is a total beast.

I only discovered him honestly like a few months ago because he DM'd me on LinkedIn and he was like, "How you doing this LinkedIn thing?" Um, and I was like, "Oh, hey dude." Like, "Who are you?" And then I looked him up. I was

you?" And then I looked him up. I was

like, "Oh my god, he's like a juggernaut."

juggernaut." But only very recently. Like Dan and I have been friends for 11 years.

How do you know everyone? It's insane.

A lot of time in the space, but he and I both come from the software world of building software startups. And he's

been doing YouTube.

Uh he probably first interviewed me for his uh podcast about building SAS companies maybe in 2015, 2016.

And so, and then so he's been doing content consistently, but in the last 3 years he's been serious about it. In the

last 18 months, it's been taking off like crazy.

Yeah. And his YouTube, I'd say, is probably the best going right now. Yeah.

It's an absolute juggernaut. And the

nice thing is that so he reached out to me and I was like talking about opportunities coming your way.

I was like yeah I but but it's like uh because you get all these professional you know content creators from other spaces. I I was with Thomas Frank last

spaces. I I was with Thomas Frank last night having a beer and it was cool because like when I built my notion product I used his stuff and so last night I was like you're Thomas Frank and he was like yeah I know who you are and

I was like oh this is quite cool. Um,

but like you get to you get to learn so much from from these people. And with

Dan Martell, he was like, "Look, we're we're doing well on these other channels. I want to learn LinkedIn." And

channels. I want to learn LinkedIn." And

so his team coached my team, my team coach his team now.

That's awesome.

And like he's now crushing it on uh LinkedIn and we're starting to do much better on YouTube.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So good.

Chris, this has been fantastic. One,

thanks for flying out to Boyisey and hanging out in the studio.

That's a long flight.

It's a long flight. I know because I just did it two weeks ago. to go visit you.

Yeah.

Uh but also just seeing the level of detail that you've put into this business and seeing how you've taken, you know, well over a decade of entrepreneurship and taken that same level of drive and attention and said,

"All right, I'm going to apply this to a personal brand," I think is amazing. And

then the approach that you've taken of constantly telling creators, go build businesses, and then telling business owners, hey, go build a personal brand.

Like you can have the best of both worlds. I think it's just such an

worlds. I think it's just such an important message. So, thanks for coming

important message. So, thanks for coming on. And uh where should people go to

on. And uh where should people go to follow you and and what would you tell them if they want to engage with everything you're doing?

So, I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm prevalent on on on social posting regularly. I

think that, you know, if if anyone ever is interested in in working with us, I would say like it's not for the faint of heart.

It really isn't. Like,

it's so it's so much work to do this.

Like, we talk about it's fun. It's

exciting. It's insanely rewarding.

And it will also be probably the hardest thing you've ever done.

Yeah. And it and it will shock you with how hard it is. Uh and but the thing is it it is a is a compound thing. The more

you do it, the more you get out of it.

The more you put in the beginning, the more you get out later. And so if you ever sign up for one of our things, just be aware that it's like people say this like funny American phrase, I think like drinking from a fire hose. I'd never

heard that before. Everyone was like that's what it's like. Um, and I suppose like if I can give one bit of advice to people, it would be the the rise of AI

means that information is losing its value in so many ways and volume has become easy. And so in some ways, it's

become easy. And so in some ways, it's the depth and it's the uniqueness and the intellectual property that is going to build a unique trust with your audience. And so for me, that's what I'm

audience. And so for me, that's what I'm focused on right now. It's I'm trying to build businesses in AI and I'm trying to create content, ironically, not with AI.

Right. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, I'm

I'm excited to dive in more and I'll keep you posted on how my LinkedIn growth journey goes. Uh and then uh is there a particular Actually, you know what? We should plug people towards your

what? We should plug people towards your podcast because growing a podcast is insanely hard and you've got a great one and uh people can go check out the episode that I did on your on your show.

So, we should go back and forth.

Oh, what should they search for uh to see your podcast?

Uh wake up with Chris Donley. So I'm

like 6 months into YouTube now and as with everything like if I didn't know that hard work at the beginning compounds for the future I would have given up.

YouTube is tough business. Um and you know the the podcast has been really fun. I think that there's a there's a

fun. I think that there's a there's a value that comes in the podcast that's not easily, you know, identifiable day one, which is like you actually make incredible connections and deep relationships with incredible people,

right?

And the unlock of that is worth way more than the views, you know?

And but the cool thing is you get that value of the relationships immediately.

Yeah.

Because as and it and it compounds much more downstream. But everyone's like

more downstream. But everyone's like looking for the views and they're like, "But but it got 300 views or it got 5,000, you know, or whatever." And

they're like, "This is so small." And

so, yeah, you have to judge it based on something else.

Yeah.

All right, we can talk forever. Thanks

so much for coming on. It's great to see you.

Thanks for having me.

If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.