Piers Morgan vs 20 Woke Liberals | Surrounded

Am I carrying >> sucking, out, my, happiness?

>> The, wokeies, are, around, me.

>> Emotions, in, a, positive, way, is, literally participation trophies not being disadvantages of annoying. Look

>> have, you, been, on, your, own, show?, You

interrupted me the whole time and now you're just getting the same thing.

>> So, me, telling, you, that, you, are, spreading misinformation. That is not fascism.

misinformation. That is not fascism.

That is just me telling you you're wrong.

>> But, you're, you're, not, telling, me, I'm wrong cuz I'm right.

>> Hi,, I'm, Pierce, Morgan, and, I'm, the, host of Pierers Morgan Uncensored on YouTube.

I'm also the author of a new book, Woke Is Dead. And today I'm surrounded by 20

Is Dead. And today I'm surrounded by 20 apparently still alive woke liberals.

My first surrounded claim is that masculinity has never been toxic.

[Music] >> One, second.

>> How, do, you, do?

>> I'm, Pierce.

>> So, I, guess, where, I, want, to, kind, of, start is talking about masculinity. So, uh, I view this, do you think that this is like socially emergent? I imagine to some degree.

>> Well,, I, think, the, truth, about, the, whole toxic debate about masculinity is it's a completely new phenomenon. Before about

30 years ago, nobody ever used that phrase. It's only really in the last 10

phrase. It's only really in the last 10 years, it's suddenly been amplified and used for absolutely everything. So, I

thought it might be useful to just start with something that Chris Williamson you may know him, uh, great guy, and he came on my show recently, and he said that all the following things have been

blamed on toxic masculinity in the media in the last year and a half. Gang

violence, climate change, the financial crisis, Brexit, the election of Donald Trump, not wearing a face mask, eating meat, physical fitness, fast food

capitalism, communism, hip hop, smelling of axe, body spray, being stoic risk-taking, religion, but also secularism and atheism, playing board

games, being interested in cars, and saying hello or have a nice day. So I

have already committed at least one crime because I've already said hello to you. So my point being

you. So my point being come this sorry >> I'm, actually, very, offended, by, that, too.

>> No, the, thing, is, I, think, the, point, I would make is I think in a time when young men in particular I've got three sons from 32 to 24. I think we've got to a weird place where they feel like they

are the most downtrodden picked upon people in society with good reason in many cases and a lot of it is down to this where they don't know what masculinity is. My argument is I don't

masculinity is. My argument is I don't think it's ever been toxic. What's

happened is you have men behaving badly but you also have women behaving badly and no one calls that toxic femininity.

>> I, actually, do, call, it, toxic, femininity.

I think when you look at I do uh when you look at like gender studies and philosophy on this, right? We use this term called masculinities and femininities because we understand that like the like samurai era of masculinity

looks very different than maybe the knights of the round table and whatnot.

So we understand that masculinity has so much morphed and shifted and in every form of these masculinities or femininities there are unhealthy elements to each of them. Could you

grant me that?

>> Well,, it, depends, what, you, mean., I, mean what do you think masculinity is? Uh, in

our society I think masculinity >> No,, no,, not, in, your, society., Just

generally, what is it?

>> Yeah., In, North, America,, we, would, broadly view it as like >> you, can't, just, say, North, America masculinity is a thing. It's not it's not like territory specific. It has

become that way with a toxic element.

But actual masculinity when it was first devised as a word, it's not an American thing. It's a global thing.

thing. It's a global thing.

>> Do, you, think, that, Athenian, masculinity and Spartan masculinity were the same in the Greeks?

>> I, think, masculinity, has, never, changed.

All that's changed is the interpretation of it. And what I can't abide is this

of it. And what I can't abide is this modern phenomenon that everything about masculinity. Everything about being a

masculinity. Everything about being a man, which I am currently identifying as, everything about me is supposedly toxic.

>> So, I, would, I, would, reject, the, idea, that everything that masculinity is is toxic.

I think that there can be bad elements of anything.

>> What, do, you, like, about, men?

>> What, do, I, like, about, men?, Lots, of things. I think that like the idea of

things. I think that like the idea of protectionism is good. I think the like uh willingness to kind of like self-sacrifice is very tied to the version of masculine we have. I think

that that's a very good thing. I think

the like desire to provide is also a really good thing. Um and stand up for like principles uh and strength. I think

all of these things incredible things.

Well the >> you, like, men, to, be, hunters,, providers, protectors.

>> I, don't, really, care, about, them, being hunters.

>> Really?, Well,, how, are, they, going, to, get all these things to help you and protect you >> in, this, economy?, I'd, prefer, them, just, to be like fiscally capable. Let's go back to the Athenians. Let's go back to Athenians and Spartans though, right? If

you want to say masculinity has always been the same, well the issue is history would disagree with you, right? In

Athens,, for example,, it, was, completely normal for you to participate in civility and talk and do philosophy. But

Spartan men, for example, wouldn't even touch coins, right? They viewed it as a very different thing. Whereas

>> what's, that, got, to, do, with, them, being masculine?

>> Well,, because, the, version, of, masculinity that they had viewed certain things like commerce as feminine. If you go to samuris, they viewed poetry as masculine, whereas if you go to like Victorian era, poetry is often

associated with >> Right., Okay,, but, what, has, any, of, that

>> Right., Okay,, but, what, has, any, of, that got to do with toxic masculinity?

>> Because, if, we, look, at, masculinity,, we have to acknowledge that it is emergent out of a society that we are participating in. When I said, well, in

participating in. When I said, well, in North America, you rejected that. And I

go, well, that's the foundational piece of this. What we're talking about, toxic

of this. What we're talking about, toxic masculinity, is essentially a North American version of masculinity that we seem to not like.

>> Well,, no,, it's, not., It's, it's, a, symptom of, and forgive my phraseiology here but it's a symptom of weak, whiny, woke wastrols who've decided they're going to revise what masculinity is. I think it's generational.

>> Hang, on., Hang, on., I'll, give, you, a, chance to respond. And they're going to make

to respond. And they're going to make all men feel terrible. They're going to make men hate themselves. They're going

to make everybody else hate men. And at

that point, I'm like, what are you doing here? Why would why would women, for

here? Why would why would women, for example, want their men to be weak whiny, woke wast?

>> Well,, I, think, I, think, the, issue, that you're neglecting here is the high levels of intergenerational trauma amongst men. I mean, if we go back to

amongst men. I mean, if we go back to World War II, it's followed by the Vietnam War, right? We see men dying by the thousands and then they come back and they have PTSD and then they go off again and die by the thousands. And so

when we look at like the lack of masculinity, masculinity and masculine role models, we have to understand this through a lens of understanding that like men have been like scooped out and

killed over and over and then when they come back they're destroyed and there isn't really an answer for men. I agree

that there's a systemic lacking of answer on the left for men in a lot of ways. The issue is that we can't I think

ways. The issue is that we can't I think the left hate men. I mean I just to pause you just to pause you. They do.

They do. Even movies like Barbie.

>> I'm, left.

>> Okay., Here's, a, little, secret, for, you.

I'm slightly left. I'm a I'm an oldfashioned liberal. You hate men.

oldfashioned liberal. You hate men.

>> I'm, not, a, You, see,, they, all, think, I'm probably I'm a right-wing heckbanger.

I'm not. I'm I'm an old-fashioned liberal. I believe in liberalism and I

liberal. I believe in liberalism and I believe there's nothing wrong with being feminine or masculine. I hate the way that masculinity has been tred with this brush of everything about it is toxic.

>> I, agree., And, but, the, issue, is, that, you can't throw the baby out with a bath water. You have to look at things like

water. You have to look at things like Victorian stoicism and recognize how that has harmed young men because >> stoicism, stoic.

>> Hold, on., Victorian, stoicism,, not, Greek, not Greco stoism.

>> Stoicism, generally, is, a, good, trade.

>> I, love, stoicism., Hellenistic, stoicism, not Greek.

>> Well,, let, me, read, you, something., You've

raised stoicism. The American

Psychological Association released a set of guidelines to help psychologists work with men and boys in which it stated that male masculine traits like

stoicism competitiveness achievement assuel of the appearance of weakness adventure, and risk should all be discarded. Now, I would categorize all

discarded. Now, I would categorize all of those things as the very best of being a real man. Why would you want them discarded?

>> I, don't, want, most, of, those, things., Let's

talk about star system.

>> I, think, we, agree., I, think, we, agree, with each other. I think you agree with me

each other. I think you agree with me too much. Anyway, it's lovely to meet

too much. Anyway, it's lovely to meet you.

>> Thank, you.

>> Hello.

>> Hi,, Paris.

>> How, are, you?

>> Sassy.

>> Sassy., Nice, to, meet, you.

>> Nice, to, meet, you.

>> Okay., Um,, first, I, want, to, say, that, I don't think that masculinity is toxic.

>> Great.

>> I, just, think, that, some, men, use, their Wait, >> debate, over.

>> No,, it's, not., That's, the, whole, point, of MY PROBLEM IS REALLY NO, NO, because you're talking about a trait, right? So

I don't think masculinity is toxic. I

think men use their masculinity in toxic ways or hide other traits but that are toxic behind their masculinity.

>> I, don't, agree, with, that., Here's, why.

They're not using their masculinity.

They're just being bad people.

>> So,, I, think, there's, a, clear, difference.

>> So,, then, men, like, Andrew, Tate,, when, they are bad people, but then stand like I'm a protector. I'm a provider, they're

a protector. I'm a provider, they're using their masculinity. I've

interviewed Andrew I've interviewed Andrew Tate a number of times. Here's

what I think about him. I think he says a lot of things which young men gravitate to because very few other people are trying to empower them about the way they look. Hang on. Okay. No

I'm not. Let me finish my sentence.

>> I, I, can, have, a, facial, reaction, to, you, if I want to. Right.

>> Actually,, that's, fair, enough., You, can, He can look horrified. Um but here's the point about Andrew Tate is a lot of the things he says I know why they resonate with young men because young men feel sort of worthless. They feel

disenfranchised by society. They're not

sure where to go. Many of them lack father figures. There's chest beating

father figures. There's chest beating Andrew Tate saying, "Keep fit, you know don't abuse yourself too much."

>> Just, women.

>> Well,, I'm, going, to, come, to, that., And, so, he says all these things which men go "Yeah, yeah, that's good. Aspire to be great, aspire to be successful, do this work hard, and all." And then you get to

his his blatant misogyny, right? He is a terrible misogynist. He thinks that

terrible misogynist. He thinks that women should be left at home, never allowed to vote, never allowed to work.

No, but my point is I agree with you about that trait of his, right? I think

it's it's horrible. But that's not toxic masculinity. That is actually misogyny

masculinity. That is actually misogyny is a word for it.

>> I, guess, the, reason, but, I, think, that, all of this was fueled by people like Andrew Tate. Cuz like you said, toxic

Tate. Cuz like you said, toxic masculinity, we've never spoke about this before, but I think the reason it's on the table now is because of men like Andrew Tate. It's not because of women

Andrew Tate. It's not because of women calling men. So call it what it is. It's

calling men. So call it what it is. It's

literally because Red Pill podcasters especially during the pandemic, if you were already a loner, you became even more alone. So, they needed a community.

more alone. So, they needed a community.

So, everyone's living life online in these what they thought was a community because all these men did was validate their shitty feelings that they already had about themselves. It was an echo chamber and they have to keep them sad

and angry, tell them to place the blame on women and minorities so that they get their pockets filled. They monetize in trauma. You can have your official

trauma. You can have your official reactions. Time out. Go ahead.

reactions. Time out. Go ahead.

>> Politely., Politely., Go, ahead.

>> Um,, I, I, think, what, you're, talking, about is misogyny. There's already a word for

is misogyny. There's already a word for that. It's not toxic masculinity. That's

that. It's not toxic masculinity. That's

the point of my argument. I don't think masculinity has ever been toxic. I do

think some men are horrible misogynist and should be called out as I call them out.

>> Don't, you, think, some, men, hide, behind their mascul? I'm sick of hearing men

their mascul? I'm sick of hearing men say, "We have to protect and provide."

>> Why, shouldn't, we?

>> Well,, no,, no,, no., But, the, thing, is, is half of you, what are you going to protect me from? Another man. And half

of them can't hunt down a job. Like, I

don't >> Or, other, women.

>> Or, other, women., Sure., Yeah,, other people. But that's the thing I'm saying

people. But that's the thing I'm saying is that men I don't understand why I feel like a lot of blame gets placed on women for all of this, but in reality you've done it to each other.

>> I, don't, blame, women, for >> you've, done, it, for, to, blame, for, any, of this. I think that Well, actually

this. I think that Well, actually that's not completely true. I blame some women who have deliberately, in my opinion, like a lot of men have done too, taken the word masculinity and they

have reduced it into meaning something it was never intended to mean. Like I

said, those words which the American Psychological Association have deemed unacceptable and should be discarded are all the absolute foundation of what I believe it takes to be a man.

>> Oh,, damn, it.

>> Just, when, we, were, getting, to, know, each other.

>> Pick, me, for, the, last, step., I, got a, lot to say.

>> I'll, think, about, it.

[Applause] >> How, are, you?

>> Good, to, see, you.

>> What's, your, name?

>> Parker.

>> Parker., I'm, P.

>> I've, been, on, your, show,, bro.

>> Yes., I, thought, I, recognized, you.

>> When, was, that?

>> Uh, after, the, Jordan, Peterson, Jubilee debate.

>> Yes,, that's, right., You, did.

>> You, has, quoted, us, as, gaytheists, on Twitter.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay., How, do, you, feel, about, that?

>> Uh, well,, I, mean,, I, think, it, was ridiculous. I'm literally straight. But

ridiculous. I'm literally straight. But

>> Oh,, you're, straight., Okay., Well,, then, I can understand why you'd find that annoying.

>> Oh,, I, don't, find, it, annoying., I'm, just saying it doesn't make sense to use that as an argument. But

>> I, will, not, call, you, a, gaytheist.

>> Okay., In, general,, the, point, that, I, would make here is that toxy masculinity is kind of an overexpression of certain masculine traits that we see in this certain context to be harmful. We're not

saying all masculine traits are harmful or it's harmful to be a masculine man.

It's certain characteristics that we would associate with masculine do you think is harmful?

>> Yeah., Like, for, for, example,, an overexpression of stoicism. And I think that, a, lot of, red, pill, >> wait,, hold, up., Let, me, explain., I, said, an overexpression.

>> How, can, stoicism, ever >> be, overexpressed?

>> Ever, be, a, bad, thing?, Explain, to, me.

>> Yeah., So, again,, if, you, were, to specifically hide your feelings and put them underneath specifically for like say the death of a loved one, I don't think that would be harmful or I mean positive specifically for you addressing your feelings in that circumstance, I think you should address those feelings

talk about them, express them to loved ones and people that are comfortable you're comfortable around.

>> That, doesn't, mean, you, can't, still, be stoic.

>> Well,, then, what, do, you, mean, by, stoicism?

Because I'm talking about an overexpression of keeping down your emotions and not expressing them and actively positively addressing >> stoicism, doesn't, mean, you, have, to, be, an unemotional, you know, Spock from Star

Trek. That's not what it means at all.

Trek. That's not what it means at all.

Stoicism means that when you're dealt a tough blow in life, you're able to reach inside yourself and deal with it in a strong manner, right? Which is a good thing. I always quote to my kids, they

thing. I always quote to my kids, they can all tell you the speech off by heart. There's a scene in my favorite

heart. There's a scene in my favorite films were the Rocky movies. The first

four were great. The fifth one was a turkey. The sixth one came back called

turkey. The sixth one came back called Rocky Balboa. And in it, Rocky's son's

Rocky Balboa. And in it, Rocky's son's in his 20s. He's a spoiled brat. He

hates being Rocky's son. He's whining

about everything. He's kind of pretty woke, weak, whiny, you know, moaning about his lot in life, you know, telling him, "Woe is me all the time." So Rocky eventually has it out with his son in

the street. And he says, "Look," he

the street. And he says, "Look," he says, "Life is tough. It will beat you down, and it will keep you down if you let it." If you want to win at life

let it." If you want to win at life you've got to learn, it's not about how hard you can hit, it's about how hard you can get hit. Get back up and keep moving forward. That's how winning is

moving forward. That's how winning is done.

>> No, one's, arguing, against, that, in general. So that's but that is that is

general. So that's but that is that is stoicism.

>> So, but, you're, misundersting, my, argument.

I'm saying an overexpression of watering down and not addressing your emotions. I

think we both agree that would be a bad expression of your emotions. And often

times men men view it that way because they say if you address your emotions to any degree there's going to be oh don't be a man don't cry. Be a man. So that's

an idea of an overexpression of masculinity and that sense that becomes toxic.

>> I, hear., So, you, say, does, that, make, sense?

>> Yeah, it, does., And, say, you >> so, that, you, agree, toxic, masculinity makes sense.

>> No, no no, that's, not, what, I'm, saying., So

you would find you would find it objectionable to use the phrase man up for example >> in, the, context, in, which, like, someone, is having a positive address of their like particular emotions and in typical I wouldn't use like like that type of phrase you'd say maybe you should

address your emotions a more positive way maybe you should go to therapy a lot of people should do that like men should go to therapy it's an important thing that they should do and that would be positive for their >> life, I've, never, been, to, therapy, in, my life >> you, should >> and, I, don't, cry, all, the, time

>> I, think, the, last, time, I, cry, was, about, 12 years ago when my grandmother died I just think this is overdone we've No, we just moved from an incredibly stoic uh generation, say the World War II

generation, who were literally sacrificing their lives for their country, but weren't crying all the time to an era now >> Wait,, why, are, you, associating, what, I'm saying with crying all the time or being weak?

>> You're, the, one, who, mentioned, crying., So,

let me just explain what I'm talking about. I don't think it suits anybody to

about. I don't think it suits anybody to encourage a society to constantly be over emotional either. I'm not saying you should suppress emotions and if you feel emotions about something, I'm all

for it. I can get emotional with the

for it. I can get emotional with the best normally about my football team but I don't spend all my time blinging like a baby and my argument with the Well, hang on, got to finish my point. I

think that if you look at the woke world generally, there seems to be a premium on overing and not enough of a premium in my view of stiff upper lip, pull

yourself together and crack on because let me tell Yeah, let me tell you there are two things you want to worry about in life. really worry about. I say this

in life. really worry about. I say this to my kids, dying and getting a terminal illness. Outside of those two things

illness. Outside of those two things everything is surmountable. You can

overcome anything.

>> What, about, if, your, partner, cheats, on you?

>> What, you, got?, Yeah., Okay., So,, there, are plenty of examples we can give where people are going to have like legitimate circumstances to cry or be sad. But like

I'm asking you in the circumstance. Give

us specific what you're referencing in terms of these woke liberals of how they're being too overly emotional.

>> Well,, you're, talking, to, me, about, why, you want people to be more emotional. I'm

telling you, I don't think that's a >> I, want, them, to, express, in, positive manners like go to therapy like how I told you.

>> Yeah,, but, I, think, we're, over, therapied.

Everyone I know over here goes to therapy.

>> You, haven't, gone, to, therapy, at, all., How

are you over therapy?

>> Why, don't, you, come, and, talk, to, me, if, you want to talk to somebody? I'll soon sort you out.

>> I, I, can, talk, to, my, therapist, and, we, can actually engage in positive reconstruction of how I address things.

Yes. Actually, it's been very helpful for my mental health and my emotional health to be able to talk them through to be able to like what can I do to like make myself feel better in these circumstances? Am I being genuinely like

circumstances? Am I being genuinely like real here? Like or am I being a little

real here? Like or am I being a little bit too overly emotional in a circumstance? It's totally a question. I

circumstance? It's totally a question. I

ask my therapists all the time. So, if

you want to talk about being overly emotional, how to address being a bit being overly emotional, how about you start with therapy? What's your

solution? What's your solution?

>> Calm, down.

>> I'm, calm., I'm, totally >> calm., It, may

>> calm., It, may >> Wait,, are, do, you, think, me, talking, fast is not being like calm?

>> You, don't, want, me, to, get, a, word, in?

Right. And I'll

>> finish, my, statement.

>> Right., I, just, think, people, go, to, therapy too much. Sorry. I do. You may not like

too much. Sorry. I do. You may not like to hear it because I just think going and talking to some stranger about all your problems all the time. Get a grip.

>> It's, not, all, the, time., It's, every, once in a while you go and talk about your problems specifically so you can address them. Do you not talk about your

them. Do you not talk about your problems ever with anyone?

>> I, look, at, Bucker., I, look, the, problem.

>> Stop, talking., I, look, at, you, and, I, see somebody who's confident. You're a good talker. You're obviously intelligent.

talker. You're obviously intelligent.

You've obviously got a lot going for you. Stop spending all this money going

you. Stop spending all this money going to see some stranger to go over everything.

>> It's, not, that, much, money, to, be, able, to go every once in a while to go see a therapist for me specifically in my life. I've never been to one in my life.

life. I've never been to one in my life.

>> You, can., It's, not, much, money, for, you.

You could easily go with the money that you make and go talk to a therapist.

>> No, need, to, go.

>> I, understand, you, don't, want, to., Everyone

says that specifically before going into it. I said the same thing, but I'm

it. I said the same thing, but I'm telling you, you can actually address your emotions in a positive way. And

also, here's what I'd rather do. I would

rather honestly have groups of people like you in the woke world, right, who clearly are struggling with regular life, right? Everyone's struggling with

life, right? Everyone's struggling with everything's a calamity. Everything's a

problem. Has to be overanalyzed, over dissected, over therapized. And I just think you've all got to be given the mental tools to deal with ordinary life.

Ordinary life. We already have them. I

actually to do that ordinary. Yeah. But

without going to therapy all the time.

>> Wait,, what's, your, solution?, What, what's your solution?

>> People, should, I, think, at, school, and colleges, we need to reinforce this comes back to masculinity with men. We

need to reinforce the mental tools required for life such as well. I can

tell you when I can chart the absolute descent of this into in the wrong way when and I think it began in America when you started giving kids participation prizes for coming last sport.

>> Absolute, shambles., I, mean, who, ever thought of that?

>> How, is, this, have, to, do, with, actually like men making their emotions better off? Participation trophies. Oh my god.

off? Participation trophies. Oh my god.

I'm explaining because if young people are conditioned to think that if you come last at something, you get a prize it is the worst possible preparation for the real world.

>> So, what's, the, actual, solution?, You're

just telling a problem again. Problem

problem, problem. What's the solution?

>> If, I, could, finish, my, sentence, >> start, with, the, solution.

>> Solution, is, you, to, stop, talking, for, a moment right?

>> How, about, you, actually, provide, a solution? All you've done is bring about

solution? All you've done is bring about problems. >> How, I've, just, given, you, a, solution., I

want to I want that's not a solution.

That's a problem. You stop participation prizes. You condition kids to deal with

prizes. You condition kids to deal with the real world when they become adults.

Otherwise, men not having the ability to dress their emotions in a positive way is literally participation.

>> Disadvantages, are, annoying., Look,

>> have, you, been, on, your, own, show?, You

interrupted me the whole time and now you're just getting the same thing.

>> Well,, because, you, talking, Don't, be, mad, >> Parker.

>> Are, are, you, mad?

>> No,, I'm, trying, to, finish, my, sentence.

>> It's, okay.

>> Parker, >> come, on., Calm, down., You're, shaking.

>> I'm, totally, calm., I'm, not, shaking, at all.

>> Parker,, you're, shaking.

>> I'm, not, shaking., Why, do, you, have, to, act like I'm Why do you have to say something delusional to try to deflect away from the fact that you haven't addressed anything meaningful here?

>> Christ,, my, point, is, I, there's, a brilliant book by Jonathan Haye about the impact of smartphones on young brains, right? And it goes back to 2010

brains, right? And it goes back to 2010 when smartphones became smart. In other

words, you could access absolutely everything. And I look at what happens

everything. And I look at what happens on my feed each day and I'm horrified about what hap may happen to younger more impressionable brains, right? And

so young people's brains have got scrambled. So since 2010 there's a

scrambled. So since 2010 there's a direct correlation of young people who get ever more anxious, ever more depressed, in some cases tragically ever more suicidal. And it's been driven by

more suicidal. And it's been driven by this constant negative dopamine. So

partly I understand why what I call the weak whiny work waste rules are like they are because they're constantly getting overloaded with negative dopamine which is making them think the

whole world's about to end. In fact, as Steven Pinker has explained in great detail, statistically, this has never been a better time to be alive. There

are fewer wars than in recorded history.

People are living longer and healthier than in recorded history. There's less

child poverty than in recorded history.

Water is cleaner than in recorded history, etc., etc., etc. The problem is social media amplifying all the bad stuff going on, making young people think the world's about to end. It's

not. So I I would like young people to be given the proper tools in their education process to enable them to deal with the real world and make them catastrophize less. I do think in this

catastrophize less. I do think in this country as in my country young people are overmedicated. I think they go to

are overmedicated. I think they go to therapy too much. I think they end up overanalyzing and over selfobsessing. I

think it can make them quite narcissistic. It's all me me and wo is

narcissistic. It's all me me and wo is me, wo is me, wo is me. I think we've got to a place oddly in society where losing is deemed to be better than winning. Where winning is something that

winning. Where winning is something that should be frowned upon, actually better to be a good loser and get all your mates to like you going, "Oh my god, I just failed my driving test for the 20th time, but I'm so proud of myself." I'm

like, "You're a terrible driver. Get

better." Right? So, it's all about how you treat these things. And out of it hopefully, I would produce a nation of people like me. Parker

>> I, would, love, to, be, able.

>> Perfect, way, to, win.

>> I'd, love, to, go.

>> I'd, love, to, see, you., Good, to, see, you.

>> My, next, surrounding, claim, is, that, woke ideology is anti-liberal and fascistic.

>> How's, it, going?

>> How, are, you?

>> Good., Good, to, meet, you., My, name, is, Evan.

>> Evan.

>> Yeah.

>> Nice, to, meet, you,, Evan.

>> My, issue, with, this, claim, is, I, find associating wokeism with fascism to be quite ironic. Wokeism to me is a term

quite ironic. Wokeism to me is a term that's used a shorthand pjorative term that's used to describe left-wing cultural politics. And I think the term

cultural politics. And I think the term wokeism and people on the right often use it as a means to deflect and distract from class politics. And

there's a very key example of this. So

the Department of Government Efficiency Doge, um this was something that you actually celebrated quite a bit when it initially came into office. Elon Musk

was coming in to root out waste, fraud and abuse. Obviously, they found zero

and abuse. Obviously, they found zero instances of fraud. To the extent they found waste, it was just stuff that they ideologically disagreed with. And there

were all these programs they were cutting,, for example,, like, LGBTQ programs in Latin America, etc. And we were celebrating this all as a big victory. But this was all a distraction

victory. But this was all a distraction because what the agency was actually doing was uh destroying the National Labor Relations Board, a board that is designed to protect workers abilities to

unionize, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, a bureau that is meant to protect consumers from billionaire capitalists like Elon Musk.

These institutions along with the IRS all of these institutions meant to actually protect and put a check on capitalist billionaires like Elon Musk and the consolidation of fascistic power

in our state. All of that was being distracted by this term wokeism. And I

think that like when when you obsess when you obsess over things like trans people in sports or DEI policies and XYZ, it is a deliberate means to distract from these very real issues.

Yes. 100%. Well, let's take let's take what you just mentioned, trans athletes and sports. Do you think it's a good

and sports. Do you think it's a good idea?

>> Uh,, not, necessarily., I, mean,, either, or isn't. So, it depends on which sport and

isn't. So, it depends on which sport and it depends on which but notice but notice what you're doing right now right?

>> You, mentioned, it., I, didn't, mention, it.

>> Well,, what, what, I, mentioned, is, that these are all a means to distract from issue., Can, you, at least, very, least

issue., Can, you, at least, very, least acknowledge that you did that you that you that you did celebrate Doge despite it rooting out all these institutions that actually impact American?

>> I'll, answer, you., I, thought, the, cutting government waste was a good thing. Do I

think it was well executed? Not

particularly.

>> Sorry,, you've, got, to, let, me, finish.

>> Go, for, it., Go, for, it.

>> Do, I, think, it, was, well, executed?, Not

particularly. You know, Elon left pretty quickly and the government just carried on spending a ton of money. You know, do I think some of the things they cut were wrong? Yes, I agree with you. Do I think

wrong? Yes, I agree with you. Do I think all of them? No. I think they did find examples of ways. So, you know, if you had a proper consistent ongoing Doge mentality which cut genuine things which

we all can agree are probably a bit wasteful, I'd be all for it. Do I

support everything they cut? No, I

don't. But given you mentioned the trans thing, because I hear a lot from the woke left and I try and say to them look, if you want to know why Donald Trump got reelected, your worst nightmare coming true, and you all sit

there on election day thinking, how on earth has this happened? Well, one of the reasons was he just stood there. You

can shake your head, but one of the reasons is he stood there and went >> "Under, me,, if, I, get, elected, >> then, I, am, going, to, ban, trans, athletes from women's sport."

>> Yeah., No,, no, >> if, you, wait,, can, I, just, respond?

>> No,, I'm, I'm, going, to, add, one, thing, to it, then you can respond.

>> If, you, remember,, Kla, Harris, endorsed, it.

Thought it was a good idea. So, the

first potential female president of the United States thought it was fair and equitable and safe that biological males compete in women's sport. Trump

understood that most people in America most people around the world outside of the woke left do not agree with that.

And there's a reason we don't agree with it. Let me finish. The Olympics are

it. Let me finish. The Olympics are coming here, right, to >> You're, also, wrong, about, Iman, Khalif,, by the way. Yeah.

the way. Yeah.

>> Well,, I'm, not, wrong, about, Iman, Khalif.

Well, Aman Khalif was banned from the World Championships. She's an Algerian

World Championships. She's an Algerian boxer banned from the World Championships because of testing positive for male chromosomes. Right.

That's not true. Well, it is true.

There was there was a right to believe it but it is true.

>> So, the, so, the, International, Olympic Committee said that Iman Khif was both born female. She has a female passport.

born female. She has a female passport.

Algeria you think Algeria the state of Algeria recognizes trans identity.

Really peers like let's be honest with ourselves. the the only inst the only

ourselves. the the only inst the only institution No. The institution that

institution No. The institution that claimed that she failed an unspecified uh gender or sex identity test was some Russianbacked organization that is not internationally recognized by the

International Olympic Committee. But

wait, but wait, no, no, no. Let me let me reset. I need

me reset. I need >> you, can't, say, something, and, me, not challenge you back if you're I know, but that's exactly what you did earlier. I

just I just quickly get all I Khalif has to do is take a sex. They're now

bringing the sex in then there's no problem. Why do you think I khif is not

problem. Why do you think I khif is not >> I, don't, want, you, to, distract, from, the fact that the election there is no evidence that people voted based on their opinions on trans. Let me give it to you. No, wait, no, wait. Let me let

to you. No, wait, no, wait. Let me let me let In a In a Gallup 2024 poll in a Yes. In a Gallup 2024 poll, post

Yes. In a Gallup 2024 poll, post election, out of 22 issues, trans uh trans issues ranked 22 out of 22. Every

in every election in all OCD countries across the world, and the economy, yes but I just let you go on.

>> No,, let, me, just, respond, to, you.

>> Actually,, if, you, read, the, New, York, Times the week after the election, I did read the New York Times, then you will remember a deep dive they did into Wait a minute. does talking. You you want to

a minute. does talking. You you want to talk all the time.

>> Sorry., Sorry.

>> Show, me, some, respect.

>> Sorry.

>> There, was, a, New, York, Times, report, into, a particular commercial ad, you know campaign ad that the Trump side put out and they originally started it in a few sports readers. It got bigger and bigger

sports readers. It got bigger and bigger and bigger. And the ad was basically a

and bigger. And the ad was basically a 30-cond mashup of Carla Harris endorsing trans athletes in women's sport and in women's spaces and so on and so on. And

it ended with Carmela is for they them Donald Trump is for you. The New York Times said that they believe that moved the needle their reporting by as much as three points >> based, on, what, information.

>> Ask, the, New, York, Times.

>> No,, that's, not, you., You, understand, news agencies aren't conducting polling analysis? That same article cited the

analysis? That same article cited the Gallot poll that I just identified where trans issues ranked 22 out of >> one, ad, move, the, needle, by, three, points >> and, based, on, what, information?, polling

pe if you pull people on what issues that they cared about in the in the 2024 election all of it was centered around economy and inflation and this is just obvious because this was a global phenomena every

>> and, every, incumbent, party, across, the world lost election a lot of Democrats and and people on the woke left in particular have tried to assure me that absolutely nobody cares about trans

athletes in women's sport >> people, care, the, right, cares, but, your median voter cares more about what's in their pocket question for you And you're doing exactly what I claimed you were doing. Using wokeism to distract from

doing. Using wokeism to distract from >> My, question, My, question, for, you, is, this.

I interviewed a woman called Betty Ye a couple of weeks ago on my show. She's a

candidate to be governor of California and she endorsed in my interview genderneutral Olympics when it comes to Los Angeles. Now that to me is where the

Los Angeles. Now that to me is where the woke mind virus takes you to complete and utter insanity. Because if there was a genderneutral Olympics and this woman

might be governor of this state >> does, she, have, any, control, over, the Olympics or the policies of the Olympics?

>> Wait, a, minute., Wait, a, minute., I'm

talking about the mindset that says that actually gender neutral. Do you agree with me? Can we reach a point of

with me? Can we reach a point of agreement that that would be absurd?

>> Uh, I, I, don't, you, know, it., It, depends, on the sport. It depends on the sport.

the sport. It depends on the sport.

>> She, specified, some, sport., Sure., She

specified track and field.

>> But, guess, what?, I, don't, care, what, some care about women losing. No, no, no.

This is a this is a governor's position.

This is a a state representative. Who is

it? A mayor. It honestly it doesn't matter. This does matter. No. Because

matter. This does matter. No. Because

this person has no institutional power.

And this is exactly what I mean. When

you champion Elon Musk and you're like "Oh my god, he's correctly identifying the woke mind virus and all and doing X Y and Z." You're distracting from the very real issue that we have an elected billionaire. You're not distracting.

billionaire. You're not distracting.

>> No., This, is, my, question., We, are, we, exist in the conversation of a larger >> Evan., Answer, my, question.

>> Evan., Answer, my, question.

>> It, depends, on, the, sport.

>> Give, me, a, sport, where, it, would, be, fine.

>> Uh, archery.

>> Good, to, see, you, ever.

>> How, are, you?

>> Good, to, meet, you,, Pierce.

>> Good, to, meet, you., What's, your, name?

>> I, promise., Mason.

>> Mason.

>> I, do, not, mean, this, as, an, insult.

>> No,, please.

>> You, seem, way, more, comforting, in, person.

Like you look one you look taller on your show like and you have this like very like >> I'm, six, foot, one., What, are, you, talking about?

>> I, don't, when, I, saw, you, walk, when, I, saw you walk in I don't know maybe you you just look like a giant on your on your show.

>> Oh,, thank, you., I, don't, know, how, to, take that but I'll take it as a com.

>> Yeah., Yeah., Yeah., Um, so, I, I, really, want to make sure that we get our definitions correct first. When you say that wokeism

correct first. When you say that wokeism equals fascism, would you say that's like the claim diluted into like a small >> Here's, Let, me, explain, what, I, mean, by that. Okay. And I've talked about this a

that. Okay. And I've talked about this a lot in my book Woke is dead. And again

just to remind you, I come at this as a pissed-off liberal who has nothing in common with the woke left and wants the woke left to actually come back to a more common sensical electable position

actually. And here's what I think about

actually. And here's what I think about what wokeism became. It began in the 60s in black American music. In its origin a great thing. It was about raising awareness for social and racial

injustice. By that criteria, I'm happy

injustice. By that criteria, I'm happy to say I'm woke. But that's not what's happened in the last few years. in the

last few years for a combination of reasons. One of which the pandemic sent

reasons. One of which the pandemic sent everybody nuts and everyone was at home drinking too much on the internet firing off all their ridiculous views and just got into rabbit holes and so on. But we

can leave that. But wokeism is supposed to be a celebration. You would, I would think, agree. Well, hang on, hang on.

think, agree. Well, hang on, hang on.

Supposed to be a Hang on.

>> You're, the, person, in, the, center., Can, I Can, I, talk, a, little bit, on, my, three minutes I get before I'm voted up?

>> I, I, haven't, I, haven't, made, my, point.

Okay.

>> Do, you, agree, that, it's, supposed, to, be about liberalism, about being a liberal?

I would say that the idea of wokeism is kind of an evolution from a bunch of different terms that have been used to throw at the left specifically. So like

before wokeism it was critical race theory. Before critical race theory it

theory. Before critical race theory it was social justice. There's there's a lot that the right specifically and I I know you say that you're not the right it's a reactionary it's a reactionary response towards the ev uh elevation of certain groups that has historically

been silenced.

>> But, does, it, celebrate, liberalism?

>> I, I, don't, think, so., I, don't, think, it, has to. I think I think a lot of it also has

to. I think I think a lot of it also has to talk about class solidarity which typically is >> let, me, give, you, a, little, Latin, lesson because the Latin words liber meaning free and also the root of liberty meaning, the equality, or, state, of, being

free and liberalis meaning courteous generous gentlemanly >> I, love, these, definitions, can, you describe you asked for a definition that's really what I want to talk about >> I, know, what, fascism, is >> wait, what, is, it, then, enlighten, me

>> can, I, finish, telling, you, what, liberalism is >> no, I, know, what, liberalism, is >> well, you, don't, think, you, do, because, if you're a woke left they don't understand what being a liberal actually means I do what being a liberal I do. So let me

explain to you the definition of a liberal include one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox traditional or established forms or ways a person who's willing to

respect or accept behavior or opinions different one from one's own favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms and concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience. Now, what part of that do

experience. Now, what part of that do you think the woke left have adhered to in the last five years? Because why is it fascist? I'm about to tell you. Okay.

it fascist? I'm about to tell you. Okay.

So, the woke left have basically said "We hate fascists. We hate Nazis. In

fact, we think everyone we don't agree with is a fascist and a Nazi." Led by Donald Trump, led by the one who voted for Trump, led by Charlie Kirk, led by all these people. Can I tell you what?

>> Wait,, let, me, finish, my, point,, then, you can respond. That they're all a bunch of

can respond. That they're all a bunch of fascists. They're all a bunch of Nazis.

fascists. They're all a bunch of Nazis.

And I kept warning the woke left as a pissed-off liberal, stop overdemonizing people by using the word Nazi and Hitler and fascist. It is ridiculously

and fascist. It is ridiculously selfharming to yourselves and it leads actually to young deranged minds like the assassin of Charlie Kirk to actually put anti-fascism slogans on their

bullets and to murder people for their speech. Right? So wokeism in the end in

speech. Right? So wokeism in the end in the last few years transformed from what was supposed to be a celebration of liberalism in many ways into a form of fascism. Why do I say that? Because it

fascism. Why do I say that? Because it

conditioned people that you either adhere to our narrow world view and if you don't, we're going to shame you vilify you. All the flags are up. I

vilify you. All the flags are up. I

didn't, get, to, talk, about, I'm, going to let you respond, cancel, cancel you, or in some circumstances, we're going to kill you for your free speech and opinions. And that is where it became

opinions. And that is where it became in my opinion, a very dangerous deluded.

It sounds like you're trying form of fascism, which is ironic because woke say they hate the fascist.

>> It, sounds, like, you're, trying, to correlate fascism with authoritarianism which is control of speech or control of how people interact or control of behavior.

>> Fascists, do, control, speech, >> right?, That, that, can, be, a, part, of, it, is

>> right?, That, that, can, be, a, part, of, it, is the authoritarianism. The specific part

the authoritarianism. The specific part of fascism is specifically trying to preserve a hierarchy based on either shared ethnicity or shared culture. That

is the idea of elevating one specific group into the top. No. Yes, you are.

So, you're telling me that Hitler would have been wearing a BLM shirt or Hitler would have been wearing an anti- because wokeism is not fascism. Fascism is

specifically dealing with one particular group. They're elevating to the top

group. They're elevating to the top identity.

That's what we saw in Nazi Germany.

That's what we saw in Imperial Japan.

Mason, none of that correlates with the ele elevation of particular groups that have historically been silenced, which is the the idea of what progressivism is. I I reject the idea of wokeness just

is. I I reject the idea of wokeness just because wokeness again is used as that insult that is elevated from different insults that have been thrown in the past.

>> Respectfully,, I, think, wokeism, has, become one of the worst scourges in the world.

>> Yeah., Because, I, think, that, there's, been a successful campaign to uh basically attach by the woke left.

>> No,, it, has, been, to, attach, all, of, these pjoratives to a a a idea of emancipation from silence groups. That's the idea.

The idea silent about the idea that we should bring people to the table.

>> Any, of, you?

>> No., You, never, stop.

>> That's, why, I, hear, so, much, about, cancel culture, about how everybody gets cancelled. When they're millionaires

cancelled. When they're millionaires with podcasts, I talk about this [ __ ] every day.

>> The, best, quote, I, have, in, my, book,, Woke is Dead, and clearly it's still slightly alive here. But the best quote, I had an

alive here. But the best quote, I had an Australian woman come up to me in the streets in London and she said, "Mr. Morgan, do you mind if I just say something about these wokies?" I went shocked. She said, "They just want to

shocked. She said, "They just want to suck all the joy out of life." And I went, "God, you're so right. That's

exactly what they do. Suck it out. Stop

saying slurs and sucking out the joy of life.

>> You, want, to, say, slurs, that, bad?

>> I, don't, want, to, say, slurs., That's, like >> But, you, are, collectively, the, most joyless group of people to ever want.

>> I'm, pretty, joyful., I'M, SMILING., MY

advice cracking jokes. My advice is I can get a beer with you. My advice for all of you is I think you need to relax a little bit.

>> Collectively, a, bit, of, a, bit, of, I, know you love a bit of zen. Zen. Calm down.

Take a chill pill, right? See the funny side of life. Respect other people's opinions. respect my right to have

opinions. respect my right to have different opinions.

>> I, think, that, you've, dressed, this, like nightmare scenario around you and then you start cowering. No, then you start cowering at the own demons that you set up. It's funny that like are the woke

up. It's funny that like are the woke room.

>> You're, saying, they're, the, joy, in, the middle of 20 hardcore.

>> They, are, joyless., They're, ruining, the joy of life. They're sucking out the happiness. They're sucking out the

happiness. They're sucking out the happiness of society. That's the idea is you're saying Yeah. You're saying the happiness is being sucked out by woke people.

>> I, think, you're, just, a, joyless, bunch., You

should lighten up a bit.

That's an insane overgeneralization.

That's how I feel about British people.

But good.

[Applause] >> Hello.

>> Hello., I'm, an >> hi.

>> You're, Pierce.

>> I, am, Pierce.

>> Um, I, do, want, to, kind, of, touch, on, the last thing that you and Mason talked about. I think the idea that the woke

about. I think the idea that the woke left is just this soulless, joyless u majority, of, the, left,, at least, now, is what you seem to be making it out to I don't think it's the majority. It's the

noisy part of the left.

>> Okay., Okay., I, actually, think, I, can, agree with you there. I think it's a loud loud minority of what you're calling the woke left.

>> I, think, the, what, really, wokeness, comes back to is that idea of fighting for equality, speaking up for people who don't have a voice themselves and advocating on their behalf for their rights.

>> And, I, think, that, you, don't >> do, you, identify, as, a, woman?

>> No., But, I, think, that's, t >> What, do, you, identify, as?

>> I, that's, tangential, to, this conversation. No, it's actually very

conversation. No, it's actually very relevant to what I'm about about to say.

>> No,, I, don't, think, my, identity, is relevant. What do you identify? What if

relevant. What do you identify? What if

I started bringing up the fact that you're British and you're here talking to a bunch of Americans in America?

>> Great.

>> That, would, be, completely, irrelevant, to this whole thing. Very irrelevant. We're

talking about American absolutely fine. But I've risen

absolutely fine. But I've risen justified. I haven't run to my

justified. I haven't run to my therapist. I've risen above the slur.

therapist. I've risen above the slur.

I'm not going to report him to very I'm not going to report him to the authorities for using a racial slur.

I've moved on.

>> That, That's, great., But, I, my, point, in asking you what you identify is is that you're talking about equality. The

wokeism is aligned to equality. And yet

where does that equality apply if, for example, and we've touched on this already, if you are a woman athlete in sport, where's the equality in having a biological man compete against you when

they have a physical advantage?

>> Okay., Look,, I, think, Well,, that, kind, of strays away from >> Do, you, think, that's, equal?

>> Do, I, think, it's, equal, for, men, and, women to play in sports if there's an advantage that's like far above the threshold? Yes.

threshold? Yes.

>> No,, I, don't, think, that's >> And, you, understand, that's, why, we separate the sexes in sport because men have a physical advantage >> to, an, extent., We

>> to, an, extent., They, just, do.

>> Okay., Then, answer, the, question, about archery. What do you think about

archery. What do you think about archery? Do you think that has to be a

archery? Do you think that has to be a segregated?

>> I've, read, I've, read, a, report, and, correct me. Someone I'm sure will correct me on

me. Someone I'm sure will correct me on the internet. I read a report that if it

the internet. I read a report that if it was a genderneutral Olympics, women may end up with two bronze medals in the entire Olympics.

>> Wait., Okay.

Hold on. Hold on. Wait. two two medals in the entire Olympic games. In other

words, it would be the destruction but I'm not advocating for >> No,, I'm, just, saying, it, would, be, the destruction of women's sport. That's why

we separate the sexes and that's why the issue matters.

>> Sorry., Lovely, to, meet, you.

>> Thank, you.

>> Excellent., Nice, suit.

>> Great, to, meet, you,, sir., What's, your name?

>> Nick., Great, to, meet, you.

>> Nice, to, meet, you., So, look,, the, the prompt was about the equivalency between wokeism and fascism. The key difference >> Well,, to, be, clear,, the, prompt, actually my real point is if you want to brand

everybody fascists, you can't behave like fascist yourself.

>> But, the, key, difference, is, fascism, uses the power of the state to impose their opinion. So does wokeism does not.

opinion. So does wokeism does not.

>> Oh,, it, does.

>> Was, anybody, deported, for, being, woke during the Biden administration? Here's

my answer.

>> Does, anybody, get, rounded, up, in, the streets for their opinion? Did anybody

get cancelled because the FCC said you're being too woke? Can I? No. Can I

answer that doesn't happen?

>> Can, I, answer?

>> Of, course.

>> Of, course., Actually,, the, woke, left, have deployed the power of the state many times. Look at the pandemic. Look at the

times. Look at the pandemic. Look at the pandemic.

>> How, is, that, wokeism?

>> I'll, tell, you, how, it's >> diseases, are, woke, now.

>> No,, woke, wokeism, is, where, you, take things which are not actually science-based. For example, for example

science-based. For example, for example the efficacy of masks, right? And by the way, I feel guilty of this myself. I'm

not I'm not saying I'm whiter than white about this. So masks are woke.

about this. So masks are woke.

>> No,, no,, they, can, be., If, the, woke mentality I I'll explain why. I'll

explain why. When a government says that if you're seen without a mask during a pandemic, you can be fined or punished.

You're way too smart to wait a minute.

I'm giving you the argument which I ended up accepting, right? Which is in a fastmoving pandemic when the scientific advice changes so rapidly, I fell victim to this myself. I was very sensorious to

people. But you can't deny that the

people. But you can't deny that the state had a mindset of you will conform or we will punish you. And it turned out they were making people.

It is true.

>> You, may, have, felt, uncomfortable, being unmasked in public because people would say, "Hey, courtesy of other people." I

didn't.

>> Nobody, got, fired., Nobody, lost, their, job.

Nobody got >> People, did, get, fired, and, did, lose, their job.

>> All, that, stuff, got, overturned, because, we are a nation of laws.

>> People, did, get, fired., They, all, lost their jobs for not wearing a mask. They

were told they couldn't come to work.

>> Who?, lots, of, thousands, of, people.

>> Okay., So, thou, these, nebulous, people, lost their job.

>> To, be, clear,, you, don't, think, anybody lost their job in the pandemic for refusing to wear a mask or refusing to be vaccinated.

>> I, think, that, people, who, are, in, public facing situations where they could have easily taken a a scientifically proven preemptive.

>> It, wasn't, proven.

>> Yes,, it, was.

>> No,, it, turned, out, not, to, be, proven.

That's my point. And yet the state driven by a left-wing Democrat president.

>> So, me, telling, you, that, you, are, spreading misinformation, that is not fascism.

That is just me telling you you're wrong.

>> No,, no,, you're, but, you're, you're, not telling me I'm wrong cuz I'm right.

>> Okay., No,, you're, just, not., And, we, we're not going to relitigate COVID. That's

now years ago at this point. The the key point is is it fascism? It is not fascism. You gave your very long

fascism. You gave your very long definition of liberalism. Wokeism is

about everything on that list that you described as being liberal. It's about

standing up for other perspectives. It's

about listening to other people that have not traditionally been listened to.

>> Oh,, you, don't, listen, to, anybody., What

are you talking about? Of course you don't.

>> You, said, yourself, wokeism, started, about just acknowledging social problems. I think it's woke middle America's jobs have been shipped overseas. That's woke

to recognize that there's larger social problems. Police brutality, recognizing that there's a problem with the institution of policing. That's woke.

It's not fascist. You defund the police?

>> No., Absolutely, not.

>> Okay., Well,, that's, woke.

>> What?

>> Not, defunding, the, police, is, woke.

>> Calling, for, the, police, to, be, defunded, is one of the worst things the woke including Ma.

>> The, new, mayor, of, New, York, City,, call, for the >> Your, first, prompt, was, toxic, masculinity has always meant one thing. Now you're

saying woke used to mean one thing, but now it means a different thing. So words

only have one definition when they suit you. But when they don't suit you, they

you. But when they don't suit you, they change and they obviously you said you said that wokeism is a form of liberalism, right? You said that

liberalism, right? You said that everything I read is a form of just to remind you a person who is willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own. The woke left

famously, I would say infamously never accept anybody objecting to anything they say.

>> We, confront, bad, speech, with, better speech.

>> You, confront, bad, speech, with, better speech. No, you don't.

speech. No, you don't.

>> Like, denying, the, efficacy, of, Max, and Vascines and I'm telling you that's wrong.

>> I'm, not, saying, you, should, be, cancelled or you should be imprisoned for that.

Actually, if you want my honest view, I do not think the efficacy of masks was ever proven. In fact, I think most of

ever proven. In fact, I think most of the evidence now suggests they were pretty pointless. Secondly, on vaccines

pretty pointless. Secondly, on vaccines I think they saved millions of lives.

But I do think it was completely misleading of the government here and the government in the UK and other countries when they stated as a scientific fact that if you had the vaccine, you couldn't transmit the virus.

>> The, measure, was, whether, the, healthare system would be overwhelmed. The

healthare system did not collapse. It

worked. That was all it was supposed to wasn't that no one would ever get sick.

>> I'm, making, the, point, that, when, you, issue government mandates and it turns out you were wrong. For example, when they said

were wrong. For example, when they said you cannot transmit the the virus if you have the vaccine, it turned out that wasn't true. Do you accept that?

wasn't true. Do you accept that?

>> I, do, accept, that.

>> So, there, were, lots, of, things, they, said which turned out to be wrong. So

>> I, would, rather, heir, on, the, side, of caution in a with a disease that killed millions of people around the world.

That's just me.

>> Hey, Nick,, as, I, did, and, in, fact, I, was very sensorious to people who took the position I'm now taking. It's not being sensorious. We're having this debate in

sensorious. We're having this debate in a public forum. I'm not saying you're not allowed to speak about this. I'm

just going to tell you you're wrong.

>> I'm, making, the, point, that, I, was, wrong, at the time about those particular parts of it. We can agree that the vaccines

it. We can agree that the vaccines broadly I think worked, but we can also agree the scientists got it wrong about masks. They got it wrong about the

masks. They got it wrong about the efficacy of transmission with vaccines.

These are things we should be a come together on.

>> Hey,, this, is, nice, to, meet you., Great, to meet you.

>> Really, good, to, see, you.

Hey, before we go any further, we want to take a moment to say thanks so much to Straight Arrow News for powering the fact checks in this video. Straight Air

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Trustworthy Journalism. Thanks again to Straight Arrow News for partnering with us on this episode. Now, let's get into it.

>> My, next, surrounding, claim, is, that genderneutral pronouns are pointless.

>> Hello.

>> How, are, you?

>> Good., How, are, you?

>> Good,, thank, you.

>> I'm, Jeremiah., Okay,, so, Oh,, I, bet, you didn't know that you were coming to a therapy session.

I am a therapist. Great.

>> Yes., Finally,

>> finally, getting, finally >> a, missing, link, in, my, life.

>> Yes., So,, I, would, argue, that, pronouns people being want wanting to be referred to the pronouns that they want actually aid them in their self-esteem improving and their validation and affirmation in life.

>> Then, they, then, then, their, lives obviously are lacking a lot of other things. It's like nobody cares about

things. It's like nobody cares about pronouns.

>> What, what, would, their, what, would, their life be lacking?

>> What, pronouns, are, yours?, I'm, he, him.

>> Okay., So,, you're, a, bloke.

>> Yes.

>> Okay., Why, do, you, need, to, call, yourself he him? I know what you are. You're a

he him? I know what you are. You're a

You're a man >> right?, But, I, think, that, you're, talking

>> right?, But, I, think, that, you're, talking about people that want you >> feel, Do, you, feel, affirmed, by, the, fact you call me he him?

>> I'm, talking, about, other, pronouns., So,

like they them. Z.

>> Well,, they, them., All right., They, them.

>> There's, one, person >> saying,, "Call, me, they, them."

>> Okay., Well,, they, them, is, a, plural., How

can you be more than one person?

>> So,, guess, what?, What, about, What, about someone nine?

>> I, mean,, call, me, stupid,, but >> but, someone, that's, non-binary, who, can engender. nonbinary mean I'm explaining

engender. nonbinary mean I'm explaining it right now who have who can engender both masculine and feminine traits and that is their third gender if that's what they want to be called why is it so hard for you and other people to call

them what they want to be called >> I, just, think, it's, all, [ __ ] >> but, I'm, asking, you, why, can't, you, just call them what they want to be called if that's what they want to be called >> I, don't, want, to >> so, then, so, how, are, you, being, empathic, if you don't want to call them what they want to be called

>> I, don't, care >> but, so, empathy, so, empathy, is, a, muscle that you could develop in therapy so if you went to therapy you'd have developed that muscle I can't think of anything I'd rather less develop.

>> Well, >> when, some, when, one, human, being, says, to me, "Call me they them." I laugh. It's

absurd. It's one of them.

>> And, and and, that, shows, that, you're you're not empathic.

>> I, asked, a, non-binary, person, who, was, a guest on my show recently, "What does non-binary mean?" She couldn't explain

non-binary mean?" She couldn't explain it.

>> Okay.

>> It, was, actually, torturous.

>> So,, that's, her., But, the, thing, is,, what if why don't you get someone on on your show who can explain it?

>> How, many, pronouns, are, there?

>> Um,, multiple.

>> How, many?

>> I, don't, know., Oh,, I'm, not, I'm, not, an expert in the >> last, the, last, count, is, there, are, 74 official ones. Do you know?

official ones. Do you know?

>> No., Okay., You're, going, to, say, cat, and dog. I'm a cat. I'm a dog.

dog. I'm a cat. I'm a dog.

I'll come to those. No, no, no, no, no no. Talk about talking about gender

no. Talk about talking about gender pronouns.

>> Yes., So, am, I.

>> There, are, 74., One, of, them, is, astral gender. An affinity with space.

gender. An affinity with space.

>> No., Where, are, you, getting, this information?

>> Official, genders., Google, literally Google it.

>> Have, you, met, Have, you, had, someone, on your show who said, "I'm an astral whatever."

whatever." >> Yes., I, actually, got, one, on.

>> Yes., I, actually, got, one, on.

>> No., And, did, you, pay, that, person, to, go on? Like I I mean utter lunacy the whole

on? Like I I mean utter lunacy the whole thing. It's like kids identifying as

thing. It's like kids identifying as cats at school. You know what I would do?

>> That, does, not, happen.

Some bogus like media presentation. That

does not happen.

>> No,, it, has, happened., Read, my, book., Woke

is dead. It's all in there.

>> I, I, don't, know, how, that, there, was, a phenomenon called the furries. You know

what it was? Kids would go to school and say I know what fries are.

>> Fries, are, not, a, gender., That, that's, a that's its own kind of lifestyle. It's

like people in outfits. But but this is where, with all due respect, this is where limitless selfidentity takes you.

It takes you to the absurd. For example

>> but, do, do, well., Do, you, believe, Let, me ask you. Okay.

ask you. Okay.

>> Do, you, believe, that, you, can, identify, as anything you like?

>> Um,, no.

>> Oh,, what, are, the, exceptions?

>> I, think, that, most, people, that, when, they think about their gender identity, it's he, him, she, her, they, Z. Those are

the ones that people are Z is um >> Oh, god,, now, I, can't, explain, it., No,, but Z, >> YOU, NO, IDEA,, HAVE, YOU?, IT'S, ALL, complete

baloney. What's Z? I have no idea.

baloney. What's Z? I have no idea.

>> AND, YOU'RE, THE, GUY, TRYING, TO, DEFEND, THIS NONSENSE. Here's my other question for

NONSENSE. Here's my other question for you. Right.

you. Right.

>> So,, it, used, to, be, LGBT,, then, it, was LGBTQ. What is it now? What's the the

LGBTQ. What is it now? What's the the >> It's, LGBTQ, plus, or, it, could, be, LGBTQI A2S. Two spirit

A2S. Two spirit >> right?, And, what, does, it, stand, for?

>> right?, And, what, does, it, stand, for?

>> Two, spirit, or, the, two >> the, whole, thing., LGBT, read, the, whole thing.

>> Um, LG, lesbian,, gay,, bisexual,, uh, LGBT, trans queer >> or, questioning,, LGBTQ,, iA,, interex, asexual, twospirit. It's the

asexual, twospirit. It's the two-spirited individuals.

>> You, forgot, pansexual, and, asexual.

>> Well,, so, pan, is, I, did, say, asexual., Pan

is not in there. Nice.

>> Nice, to, meet, you.

[Applause] >> Hello.

>> Hello,, Pierers.

>> What's, your, name?

>> I'm, Jenny.

>> Jenny., Nice, to, meet, you.

>> Nice, to, meet, you., So,, we, wanted, to, talk about I guess your initial claim is that pronouns are silly or purposeful.

>> I, think, we've, just, established, how, silly they are. I mean, even the people

they are. I mean, even the people defending them can't remember what they mean, >> right?, So,, I, just, wanted, to, touch, on, two

>> right?, So,, I, just, wanted, to, touch, on, two things here. So I don't think anyone is

things here. So I don't think anyone is denying biological sex assignment at birth, right? Whatever your doctor

birth, right? Whatever your doctor determines your >> It's, not, about, doctors, assigning anything, is it? You're either born with certain genitals or you're not.

>> Right., But, a, do, a, a, doctor, has, to, look at >> when, you're, a, male, or, female.

>> Right., Understanding., Do

>> you, accept, that?

>> Yeah., I, I, that, we've, got, this, whole phrase assigned at birth. What does it mean?

>> That, means, a, doctor, has, looked, at, you, as a baby.

>> They, look, at, you, and, they, just, see, what I look at you and see. I don't have to be a doctor to know what you're assigned at.

>> Right., But, you're, just, born., Do, you accept that the vast majority of people ever in the history of planet Earth are born male or female?

>> Yeah,, I, do, believe, that.

>> But, can, we, stop, the, phrase, assigned, at birth by a doctor? Literally

>> I've, had, four, babies., They, look, at, them and they go, "Oh, it's a boy. It's a

girl. That's it."

>> Right., So,, a, doctor, determines, and writes that on your but there's no one assigning.

>> Can, I, finish, my, point,, please?

>> Yeah., But, they're, not, assigning anything. It's a ridiculous phrase.

anything. It's a ridiculous phrase.

>> Please, feel, free.

>> Thank, you., So, whatever, your, biological sex is determined by a doctor upon your birth, I don't think anyone's denying that.

>> However,, gender, is, a, construct, that, is how we express ourselves.

>> How, many, genders, are, there?

>> For, me,, I, think, that, it's, a, scale, and however you want to express yourself is up to you.

>> Can, I, express, myself, as, anything, I, want?

>> Well,, if, you, let, me, finish, my, point.

Okay. So, for example, we talk about masculinity. We talk about femininity.

masculinity. We talk about femininity.

And some days I feel like I want to feel more feminine. So I wear a dress or I do

more feminine. So I wear a dress or I do things that are socially constructed and designated as feminine. Or maybe other people have like this idea of masculinity. So they present themselves

masculinity. So they present themselves in that way. So gender is different from biological sex in that it's how you express yourself. To me, somebody's

express yourself. To me, somebody's gender expression and how they want to be addressed is no different than using somebody's name. Because I I write. So

somebody's name. Because I I write. So

when we use pronouns, it's with purpose right?

>> What, are, your, pronouns?

>> She,, her.

>> So, you're, a, woman?

>> Yes.

>> So, why, don't, you, call, yourself, she,, her?

Well, I that's just how you address women.

>> So, why, why, use, them, as, pronouns?

>> But, pronouns, are, just, used, in, English language. We

language. We >> never, used, to., This, is, just, only, started 10 years ago. Nobody ever

>> pronouns, has, always, been, used, in, the English language.

>> I'm, talking, about, the, new, cavalcade, of extra pronouns. I think we're making it

extra pronouns. I think we're making it out to be so much more than it really is.

>> If, you're, a, man,, you're, a, he,, him.

That's it. Right. The rest of it is just a complete construct of the woke left.

You've already established none of it makes sense to the point that none of you can even explain half of it.

>> No., And, I'm, still, explaining, it., So,

>> how, many, genders, are, there?

>> I'm, still, talking, about, gender expression.

>> Can, you, tell, me, how, many, genders, there are?

>> I'm, talking, about >> how, many, other, are.

>> I, personally, don't, care., I, don't, know.

>> Do, you, know, a, number?

>> No,, because, for, biological, sex, maybe.

>> Do, you, believe, in, the, concept, of limitless selfidentity?

>> Um,, no., So,, if >> So,, what's, where's, where's, the, limit?

>> If, you, would, let, me, continue.

>> Where's, the, limit?

>> If, you, would, let, me, continue., Thank, you.

So, what I'm saying though is that when you refer to somebody and their pronouns that they ask for, it's just general English language how we use it. There

are plenty of languages out there that don't even have pronouns um because that's just how the language works. So

if you can speak a different language and not have to refer to somebody by their pronouns and know exactly who you're talking to, then I don't think pronouns are a big deal.

>> I, hear, you, and, you, and, you, phrased, it very, you know, nicely, but my point being I think it's got completely out of hand. Okay. When there are 74 cited

hand. Okay. When there are 74 cited genders, if you Google it as the official list of genders, and one of them is an affinity with space, I'm calling [ __ ] When you have LGBTQ

and it now has so many letters that even experts in the field of the LGBT community acronym cannot remember what they all mean. It is ridiculous. And

when it comes to limitless selfidentity I had this debate with someone on women's international women's day on my show uncensored and I had two guests.

One was white, one was black. There's a

relevance to that. And we were talking about this and I said, "Right, two women." I said, "Um, do you believe in

women." I said, "Um, do you believe in limitless selfidentity?" And the the

limitless selfidentity?" And the the woke of the two guests said, "I do. And

you have to respect what people want."

And she said, "Yes." I went, "Okay." In

that case, I on International Women's Day, Piers Morgan, am now identifying as a black lesbian. And the black panelist burst out laughing because she knew what I was doing. Which is taking this

argument to its logical conclusion which is once you make it limitless society just collapses because anyone can say that they're anything they want.

You would say to me, if I said to you I'm a black lesbian. What would you say?

>> I, would, say, that, you're, conflating, this idea of limitless like whatever gender expression, selfidentity. I already said

expression, selfidentity. I already said I don't agree with that. I

>> But, you, didn't, say, where, the, limit, is.

>> Right., So, for, me, personally, and, what, I believe is that there are scientific things that we can agree to like biological sex, right? But gender

expression is a cultural but where is the limit to what you can identify as another race because that's just genetically not correct. Right. So

>> so, there, are, limits, to, this.

>> Yeah,, I, do.

>> I'm, really, curious, where, the, woke, limit is on selfidentity.

>> Gender, is, a, social, construct., A, social construct means we made it up. Right.

Yes.

>> Exactly., So, it's, completely, invented.

Therefore, you can have whatever identity that you want because you've decided to create that.

>> But, my, point, the, point, the, point, of, my >> But, why, is, that, a, problem?

>> No,, here's, the, problem., It's, got, so, out of control.

>> Nice, to, meet, you.

>> Nice, to, meet, you.

>> Got, you., Um,

>> how, are, you?

>> Ryan, >> nice, to, meet, you., Right.

>> Ah,, peers.

>> So, >> actually,, I, have, my, preferred, pronouns.

>> Okay., What, are, they?, Uh,, hot,, hotter, hottest.

>> I, can, call, you, that., I, can, honor, that.

Yeah.

>> But, throughout, the, conversation,, I expect you to call me.

>> All right., Hottie., Is, that, okay?

>> Uh,, I, prefer, hottest.

>> Hottest., Okay., That, Well,, I, personal because I thought I was. Um, so look, I I think you do this really great job of taking the far edge use case and writing a book about it. I think what you're

trying to do is take this thing that is explicitly a one-dimensional two-dimensional range and adding things like this random, you know, star thing and then elephants and all that stuff.

Nobody who is random.

>> Oh,, fine., I, tell, you, what,, you're, right.

Right. If you can Google it, it must be the main.

>> No,, if, you, read, my, book,, you'll, see these are specific examples.

>> No,, I, got, it., I, got, it., No,, I understand. You were really good at

understand. You were really good at taking anecdotes and making them data.

If that was how science works >> not, data., Not, data., Just, facts., Well,

>> for example,, for example,, for example, there was a school in the north of England called the Alteringham School for Girls, okay? Where everybody there is a girl. That's why they call it Alteringham School for Girls. And then

because of the trans activist campaign eventually they banned teachers and pupils from referring to each other as girls, even though everybody there was a girl.

>> I, think, most, of, I, think, the, vast majority of people who care about this at all would say that's an edge case and most of us think that's weird.

>> Great., No,, we, agree.

>> That's, the, vast, majority.

>> And, I, agree, with, you., Okay., So, explain to me why you think personal pronouns actually matter.

>> Well,, you, know,, the, question, of, gender has gone back for thousands of years.

There were over 150 distinct civilizations in North America before colonialism that had more than two genders. So, this is what we in the real

genders. So, this is what we in the real world like to call an open question that evolves over time. I don't think that the fact that the question exists means there's some systemic sickness within society. And I don't understand why the

society. And I don't understand why the fact that something that maybe you're not that familiar with or is an open question makes you uncomfortable.

>> My, argument, is, anything, that, is pointless. Well, I mean, what are your

pointless. Well, I mean, what are your what are your pronouns?

>> He,, him, >> right?, So,, everyone, I've, asked, has

>> right?, So,, everyone, I've, asked, has basically said she, her, he, him. Well

in my day, it was just male and female man, and woman.

>> Got, it., Well,, here's, the, thing., You, But but it's not for us to get. It's not

ours to get. That's the point.

>> No,, but, my, point, is, I, shouldn't, be compelled to use absurd.

>> You, don't, fine., Listen,, I, Whatever, you call absurd, fine. Whatever you choose not to have to call me hottest.

>> That's, the, thing., You, could, go, around >> I, say, my, preferred, pronoun, is, hottest.

You don't have to >> gay, man., You, could, listen, as, a, gay, man you could go around calling me a and that would be okay. You would be allowed to, do, that., You're, not, going to, get arrested., You're, not, going to, go, to

arrested., You're, not, going to, go, to prison. You can do it again. Exactly. It

prison. You can do it again. Exactly. It

would be offensive and un unkind. It

would not be okay, but you could do it.

What I'm saying is you don't have to accept other people's pronouns. Yes.

Well, you've been saying a lot. I'm

referring to things you've said.

>> You're, putting, words, into, my, mouth.

>> Correct, me.

>> You, should, let, me, say, what, I, think, about >> Go, for, it., I, can't, wait.

>> I, just, found, your, terminology, offensive.

>> Okay.

>> Heads, object., Is, that, all, you, were, going to say?

>> Obviously,, look,, we, can, agree, that, when there are derogatory terms like that it's offensive. Yeah, of course.

it's offensive. Yeah, of course.

>> Right., And, so,, if, I, find, it, offensive that you refuse to honor someone's they them pronouns, I'm allowed to be offended by that. You're allowed to be offensive. That's a thing that can

offensive. That's a thing that can happen out in the world. That doesn't

make you right.

>> No,, but, we, had, a, crazy, phase,, which, I talk about in the book, where literally where companies, you know, big companies, people were getting fired for not using people's pronouns.

>> I, don't, think, Look, >> you, agree?, You, agree, that's, insane?

>> Hold, on., Listen,, anytime, change, happens, there are going to be blips. Do

>> you, agree, that, you, agree, nobody, should fire?

>> I, don't, think, anybody, should, get, fired.

No, >> nobody, should, be, fired., Do, we, agree?

THIS IS GOOD.

>> YEAH., NO,, BUT, THE, VAST, MAJORITY, OF PEOPLE think that peers. I mean, this for the same reason that most of us call ourselves woke tongue and cheek where there's there's minutia. There's little

details, little off the on to the side cases. And then there's what's that's

cases. And then there's what's that's what's common. And what's common is

what's common. And what's common is people respect people's pronouns, but it is uncommon for an employer to fire someone for refusing to put them in their email. more common than you think

their email. more common than you think and actually became a very insidious part of wokeism which is which is the what I call the the cancel culture.

We're, going to, come, to, that, as, a separate question but this whole idea that if you don't conform to a particular worldview you have to be >> no, look, I, understand, I, understand, that look there are people on the far extreme

of of both the left and the right who want to get rid of people who believe think differently than they do. That's a

both sided both sides but but 95% of us are inside of those sides. This is not like a systemic problem with our whole human society. This is a this is a

human society. This is a this is a far-edged use case. So if you want to write a book and you want to go around talking about it like it applies to all of us. I just want to be clear. You're

of us. I just want to be clear. You're

taking a a molehill and making a mountain, out of, it.

>> Sounds, like, you, pretty, well, agree, with me.

>> Well,, yeah., No,, I, agree, with, the principle of some of these things are can be extreme. What I disagree with is how you take it and you make it this permanently awful bad thing. Black and

white binary. It's bad. and you want to dismiss out of hand anything I think wokeism as a mindset is honestly I think

it's a joyless hectoring censoring virtue signaling load of crap I do I do and I say that and like I say I don't say that because I'm on the right because I'm not the right the right will

tell you I'm not one of them ask them what they think about things like gun control abortion and things like that right >> no, your, contrarian, thing, works, is, a great brand and I believe it's authentic I believe it's authentic >> I, genu, I, genuinely, sit, in, the, middle, on

Well, I here fine. But here's the thing.

I want to just be clear that what we're talking about are holding against the whole of society edge cases. I have been a grassroots activist for 15 years. I

also do standup comedy with all kinds of people.

>> People, say, things, that, are, offensive, all the time and every once in a while in all these places you run into one or maybe two people who are these joyless you know, you know, joy sucking, you know, nothing is okay people. But all of

us, the vast majority of us who give a [ __ ] about any of these things find those people to be unusual. They get

cornered over there and over there and we don't do. And that's why that's why when you say wokeism is like that, we all go [ __ ] because that's not how we are.

>> Listen, listen,, I, I, agree, that all-encompassing, you know, verdicts on a group of people is often a bit misleading. If you, you know, you're

misleading. If you, you know, you're clearly not an extreme progressive woke right? You're somewhere probably a bit

right? You're somewhere probably a bit more normal, which is like I said at the start, >> that's, what, my, dad, says., No,, but, you know, but I can see you probably are you probably got quite a common sense valve in you, right?

>> Yeah,, I, hope, so.

>> And, that's, all, I, all, I, want, really, is common sense.

>> Good, luck, to, you.

[Applause] >> Hello.

>> Hi,, Sophie., Nice, to, meet, you.

>> Sophie,, nice, to, meet, you.

>> So, >> what, are, your, pronouns?

>> She,, her.

>> Great., Another, one., But

>> so, actually,, oddly,, ironically,, none, of you have anything but the standard old pronouns, which we never needed because everyone knew you were a woman or a man.

>> Yes., However,, my, best, friend, goes, by genderneutral pronouns and I am an 18-year-old high school student.

>> So,, what, do, you, mean, by, that?

>> Uh,, they, go, by, they, them.

>> They, them., But, there's, only, one, of, them.

>> Yes.

>> Explain, that.

>> They, them, can, refer, to, a, singular person. Like I

person. Like I >> can't,, can, it?

>> I, feel, like, if, somebody, comes, to, my house and drops off a package at the door, I say, "Oh, they left the package there." I'm not like, "Oh, he left the

there." I'm not like, "Oh, he left the package there. She left the package

package there. She left the package there. I say they left the package

there. I say they left the package there. And that's only referring to one

there. And that's only referring to one person.

>> Um,, so, I, am, an, 18-year-old, high, school student and many of my friends are trans or go by gender neutral pronouns.

>> Are, they, though?

>> Are, they?, Cuz, what's, happening, is, quite interesting. Apparently the number of

interesting. Apparently the number of people No, no, no, no, no. The number of people Well, I'm talking about a group of people. All the reports are

of people. All the reports are suggesting in the last year there's been a dramatic collapse in the number of young people at colleges and universities identifying as trans which would confirm to me that the thing was a

fad which got completely out of hand.

And the people and the people I actually felt sorry for were the people who are genuinely trans some cases go through years of surgery because they feel they're born to the wrong body the wrong

sex and so on. I feel like they have been lost in all this conversation.

They've been made to feel ridiculous.

they'd be mocked and so on. And I feel badly for those people because actually a lot of this trans stuff particularly with young people at colleges has been a fat. And you know there was a school

fat. And you know there was a school near me near where I grew up in East Sussex in England where 900 kids in one school were apparently trans or doom

off. Honestly ridiculous.

off. Honestly ridiculous.

>> I, understand., However,, I, think, it's about respect and it's about garnering respect to the people who are like you're talking to a person and if they want to be called they them by the pronoun.

>> If, I, want, to, be, called, a, black, lesbian, >> okay,, but, that, that, gets, into, a, race conversation. That's not If I want to be

conversation. That's not If I want to be called uh let me think of something.

>> No,, we're, talking, about, they, them., We're

talking about gender neutral pronouns.

That was the >> If, I, want, to, be, hot,, hot,, hottest.

>> Okay., Well,, that, would, be, your, choice.

>> Would, you, respect, that?

>> Yes,, I, would.

>> So,, you, would, call, me, that?, Yeah,

because that is your pronouns. And so I I feel like >> I, I, you, must, call, me, that.

>> Okay., Uh, but, I'm, referring, to, you.

>> Yes.

>> At, the, moment, >> but, but, address, me, in, my, preferred >> another, thing., You, got >> So, you, got >> Okay., So, hotter.

>> Okay., So, hotter.

>> Okay., Thank, you.

>> Um >> this, could, really, catch, up.

>> Language, evolves, over, time.

>> You, see, how, ridiculous, that, exchange was?

>> No, >> it's, preposterous.

>> Sorry., Lovely, to, meet, you., Welcome, to >> Welcome, back.

>> Hey,, good, to, see, you, again.

>> Good, to, see, you, again.

>> So,, I, think, that, like, the, the, fixation on this really shows your emotional connection to the idea of pronouns more than like other people's want to self-identify. Cuz for me, if like I've

self-identify. Cuz for me, if like I've had people come up to me, I work in a lot of queer spaces in nonprofit work and I've had people who say they're they them. I misgender them on accident. I

them. I misgender them on accident. I

call them, you know, if they look very fem presenting, I'll call them she, her and they'll be like, "Actually, is they them?" In my mind, I'm like, "Okay, I

them?" In my mind, I'm like, "Okay, I messed up. They're not chastising me.

messed up. They're not chastising me.

They're not pissed at me. They're not

going to like victimize me afterwards."

And that's a majority of people. If if

there are people that do feel a sense of defensiveness, it's because there's been a propaganda campaign nationally that's been pushed on these people specifically to target and victimize them. So, my big thing is if we want people to be less defensive and less emotional, why are we

fixating so much on it? Why are the people that say they hate pronouns so much talking about pronouns every chance they get?

>> I, just, think, when, we, get, to, 74, different ways of identifying your gender and one of them is an affinity with the stars you should all accept it's got ridiculous. And my point of saying

ridiculous. And my point of saying things like I identify as a black lesbian, whatever is simply to show that if you allow things to be limitless, it goes to ridiculous places. We've had I

mean that Rachel Dolesel story, do you remember that was the the white woman pretending to be black, right? I was

absolutely absurd and you've led this whole life as a as a fake person. It's

all that kind of stuff to me to me to me it's fuel it's fueled by a mindset that says anyone can they use the phrase express themselves but actually if your

gender identity and you want people to use this if we get to 74 80 100 right it becomes as I point out completely pointless >> yeah, but, if, if, you're, someone, who, feels

this like sense that you need to identify as hot and hottest I'm just going to call you Pierce like that's really how it is my point >> yeah, so, my, thing, is >> I, think, you've, answered, my, that's, that's No, exactly. And that's what you can do.

No, exactly. And that's what you can do.

No, you agree.

>> No,, but, but, you're, going, on, a, show, and you're writing a book specifically highlighting these people. That's the

difference.

>> If, this >> I'm, not, making, a, big, stink, saying, this is the degradation of society. I'm

saying that this is somebody who is saying something that I don't totally understand. But just because I don't

understand. But just because I don't understand it, I can still respect them.

I don't have to punch down and specifically target them out. That's the

difference.

>> There, are, a, a, million, things, more important in life than being concerned about how people call you.

>> Then, don't, focus, on, it,, Pierce., Why, are you writing a book about it? There's

millions of things to concern yourself with., Why aren't, you, talking, about, a

with., Why aren't, you, talking, about, a genocide happening in Palestine? Why

aren't you talking about actual victims that are going through hardship? You're

writing a book about people who say astrogender, something I've never heard before and I work in queer spaces.

>> Mate,, time, out., I, literally, do, a, show every night where I talk about the wars in Ukraine and Gaza and other major issues.

>> I'm, just, talking, about, this, topic.

>> I'm, talking, about, this, because, I, think it was very interesting to me that Donald Trump got reelected. I was like how has this happened? And I think it was partly immigration, it was partly the economy, and it was partly what the

Democrats call the culture well and partly the culture wars, right? A lot of people were fed up with this.

>> I, think, it, really, was, a, big, focus, on, the economy. And I think you're right there.

economy. And I think you're right there.

And I think Trump's version of populism spoke to a lot of people who have been disenfranchised.

>> Also,, the, culture, war, stuff,, it, did, cut through. It didn't. Yes, it did. That's

through. It didn't. Yes, it did. That's

not a big >> I, don't, meet, anybody, on, the, W, left, who will admit it. None of you admit it.

>> Because, if, you, talk, about, people's economic conditions, they're not going to give a [ __ ] of who their neighbors are and what their pronouns identify as.

They just want to be able to afford meals for their kids and actually get healthare.

>> Way., Exactly., Hence, why, gender, pronouns are pointless.

>> No., If, if, it, if >> if, if, a, certain, group, of, people, feel more comfortable, that shouldn't be something we discriminate.

>> My, final, surrounded, claim, is, that, cancel culture is real and a serious threat to free speech.

>> How, are, you?

>> Hey,, Pierce., I'm, Tyler., Nice, to meet you.

>> Good, to, meet, you,, Tor., Okay., So,, I actually I read your book.

>> Yes., What, did, you, think?

>> So,, um, Oh,, I, like, that., I, like, that, you gave like, you know, the movie American Fiction the praise it deserves. But, um

so on page 81, you talk about how you're a liberal who respects free speech. And

on that page, you say the Republican party, and I quote, is ferociously free speech. Yet, Donald Trump two months ago

speech. Yet, Donald Trump two months ago signed an executive order banning the burning of the American flag. So, how

does that work?

>> I, don't, agree, with, him.

>> Yeah,, but, then, how, are, they, ferociously free?

>> I, don't, agree, with, him.

>> Yeah,, but, no., On, your, book, on, page, 81, you said they're ferocious. I would say in the last few years the Republicans have been more pro- free speech than the woke left. That doesn't mean

woke left. That doesn't mean occasionally, as we saw with the Jimmy Kimmel thing, it doesn't mean that occasionally they don't do stuff which I think is hypocritical because actually it's not supporting free speech. So I

agree with you.

>> So, what, um, executive, order, did, the Democrats pull where they were banning anything to the regard of burning the American flag?

>> The the, I, don't, think, it, happens.

>> I'm, talking, about, Well,, I, don't, agree with it. So

with it. So >> but, your, book, says, they're, ferociously free speech. It's a contradiction.

free speech. It's a contradiction.

>> They, are., Should, we, just, turn, turn, or tear page 81 out of your book then?

>> No.

>> No.

>> No., You, could, be, fally, free, speech, and still occasionally do things which are hypocritical.

>> Okay., Like, well, like, yourself., But, um, so >> Oh,, where, have, I, been, hypocritical?

>> So, okay., So, on, um, page, 245.

>> Wow., Are, you >> I, like, the, book., What, can, I, say?

>> Are, you, like, one, of, those, weird, little mentalists who just remembers every single word every page?

>> I'm, just, a, massive, Celebrity, Apprentice fan, so I need no idea. Really? Oh, you

killed Trace Atkins in the end. I really

appreciate that.

>> I, actually, bumped, into, him, in, Beverly Hills recently. But so on page 245, you

Hills recently. But so on page 245, you talk about how you are against if you were king for a date, you would ban anybody who participates in cancel culture online. Yes. And you would call

culture online. Yes. And you would call them out. However, Michael Nolles, a

them out. However, Michael Nolles, a guest you have on all the time, has recently said that he wants to ostracize certain people from society that when they they say negative things, he was on

this show and said if you wave the pride flag, you should be in jail for that.

That is against the First Amendment and that it's absolutely cancel culture that you never call him out on the I've You've never done it. You have him on the show all the time.

>> I, will., Next, time, he's, on,, I, will, call out. You promise me.

out. You promise me.

>> You, have, You, have, a, bet.

>> So,, like, right, now, though,, it, just, seems to me >> anyone, who, watches, my, show, will, know., I

call out everybody.

>> No,, you, don't., You, never, call, OUT MICHAEL NOLLES. HE'S DONE IT MULTIPLE

MICHAEL NOLLES. HE'S DONE IT MULTIPLE TIMES.

>> You've, just, pointed, that, out, to, me., I

will call him out.

>> It, just, sounds, like, you're, not >> Michael,, if, you're, watching,, I'm, going to ask you about that. You better You better have your >> Okay,, so, then, other, than, So,, what, has the left has done?

>> I'm, not, ideological., I'm, not, coming, from left or right. What has the left what has the left done in the past 10 years that has been worse than trying to ban the burning of the American flag?

>> Well,, what's, the, woke, left, done, pretty they tried to ban everybody and everything?

>> Really?, They, tried, to, make, it, illegal.

What? Name one example. That's just a flag.

>> So,, yeah,, but, what, legislation, they, put forward?

>> Nothing.

>> No,, but, here's, let, me, question, back, to you.

>> What's, What's, more, being, canceled, than being put in prison?

>> Well,, okay,, I'll, let, me, give, an, example.

I'll give an example.

>> Yeah.

>> Graham, Lahan.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay., I'm, not, bringing, it, back, because, I want to talk about his issue. He's a

comedian did Father Ted. Obviously, his

issue is singular. It's the trans issue.

We've debated that. Yes. However, the

principle of a comedian posting jokes which people may find offensive on social media as he did back in April about the trans issue then being met by five armed police officers at Heathrow

airport in London and arrested and taken off. And a very interesting thing

off. And a very interesting thing happened which is why I say woke is dead as a as an ideology because two three years ago that would have been supported by everybody on the woke left. Yeah.

Bang him up. Absolutely disgusting. How

dare he? He's transphobic. He's

horrible. We know this because of the way that Hang on. We know this from the way that JK Rowling was treated, right for doing the same stuff about the trans issue. She was given death threats. She

issue. She was given death threats. She

was threatened with this, that, and the other. But what a different thing

other. But what a different thing happened this time. This time there was such a public outcry, including from many on the left, actually, to be fair to them, that this had crossed the line.

We've got to stop doing this for stupid posts on social media. Hundreds of

people on social media in the last two years in Britain have been arrested.

It's completely ridiculous.

>> Well,, let, me, finish., So,, so, actually, the police not only said we're not going to prosecute him, but we're not going to prosecute anybody for this kind of offense going forward. That's a big win and a repudiation of cancel.

>> All, you've, told, me, is, the, left, has progressed in their position on free speech, but the right has regressed.

That's all you said.

>> I'm, not, here, to, defend, the, right's position. I think

position. I think >> I'm, saying, if, you're, going, to, write, a book, it's trying to defend free speech.

You should focus on where it's actually being attacked. But you wasted your time

being attacked. But you wasted your time talking about this left boogeyman that does not exist. I agree with you. I love

free speech. I am against all that stuff. I'm wearing the poppy today

stuff. I'm wearing the poppy today because of Remembrance Day and we fought for free speech and the right right now is attacking it and you have a huge platform and you can take this time to actually defend free speech but you're not.

>> I, always, defend, free, speech.

>> Okay., So, then, why, don't, you, put, more focus on the right then? So let let me give you AN EXAMPLE. YOU ACTUALLY AGREE with my let me let you actually agree with my argument on page 241 of your book as I'll quoted together. You you

you attacked Bob Chapeek because he um denounced Ronda Santis for putting in like anti-gay laws to put it uh quot you said he should be attacking people like Ji Jinping because he does way more

human rights violations. But that

applies here. Trump and the right do way more than left. You said that in your own book, but right now you're contradicting yourself again.

>> I, think, both, sides, are, capable, of, worse.

I actually think on balance over the last 5 years the woke left have been more suppressive of free speech than the Yes. Let me give you an examp but you

Yes. Let me give you an examp but you take like 15 minutes to give an example and we have 14 minutes.

>> We, can, stop, talking.

>> That's, true.

>> All, right.

I had a great time.

>> Hey,, that, was, good.

>> Yeah.

>> I, like, the, book.

>> Thank, you.

>> How's, it, going?, How, are you?

>> Good, to, meet, you.

>> Good, to, see, you.

>> My, name's, Dash.

>> Good, to, see, you.

>> Pier, standing, off, against, the, liberals.

This is really something.

>> Well,, I, am, a, liberal.

>> Your, thoughts, and, beliefs, in, private,, I would assume more align with ours, but I understand getting I understand getting that bag. So, I don't know.

that bag. So, I don't know.

>> I'll, save, you, the, trouble., I'll, do, it for you.

>> Here's, Morgan's, new, book,, Woke, is, Dead, is out now. It's great.

>> Thank, you.

>> I, also, read, it, covered.

>> Thank, you, very, much.

>> I, want, to, take, that, off, your, shoulders.

>> But, let's, get, into, it., So,, I'm, just curious. Someone who doesn't have any

curious. Someone who doesn't have any kind of a relationship with accountability, would you agree that everything comes across to them as cancel culture?

>> No., I, don't, I, don't, believe, that, speech comes without accountability.

>> Okay.

>> But, I, do, believe, we, had, a, frenzied atmosphere in the last few years driven predominantly by the woke left of cancelling anybody that didn't sign up to their worldview which I thought was

very insidious. I called it out while it

very insidious. I called it out while it was happening. I've called it out since.

was happening. I've called it out since.

I've now written a book about it all saying we cannot go back to that. It

doesn't mean the right aren't capable of doing similar stuff and being hypocrites. They are. But it also means

hypocrites. They are. But it also means that if you to look at it in totality, I think this cancel culture mentality has been really damaging and I think the war on free speech has been really damaging.

>> Okay., Well,, let's, let's, put, this, on, a spectrum because I think we use this term cancel culture and everybody's been cancelled by the left. I don't have any actual evidence of what you're talking about. So, let's say accountability is

about. So, let's say accountability is on this side which is you facing consequences for your actions. And on

this side of the spectrum is facing consequences for something that is not justified. So now let's start to place

justified. So now let's start to place it in that spectum.

>> Let, me, give, you, a, specific, example >> because, the, people, you, carry, water, for on the right tend to be over here where they don't take accountability for anything and instead feel like they're being cancelled. Although it's just

being cancelled. Although it's just cont.

>> And, you, really, think, I, carry, water, for the right?

>> Absolutely.

>> Really?

>> Yes., There's, a, statistic, that, you, you you defend Republicans more than anybody else.

>> No., No,, I, don't., I, just, attack, the, woke left more than anybody else.

>> Uh, okay., But, but, it's, friendly, fire., I

come at you as one of your own. Only I

didn't go mad. I appreciate you admitting only I didn't go mad. Right. I

didn't go mad, woke bonkers. I stayed

old-fashioned liberal with liberal values wanting free speech at the cornerstone of it. Let me give an example.

>> Peers., I, read, your, book., That's, not, the case. You spent most of the books [ __ ]

case. You spent most of the books [ __ ] in your mouth.

>> If, you, read, the, Sorry.

>> You, you, you, spent, most, of, the, book, with Trump sucking him off.

>> No,, I, didn't.

>> Yes,, you, the, prologue, was, the, dawn rises. Do

rises. Do >> the, prologue, actually,, if, you, read, it, and I don't think you did because you just revealed you probably haven't. The

prologue actually starts with two conversations I have with him. One

positive and one extremely negative which ends up with him saying, "Persier Morgan's so dead, he's catching flies."

I'm not sure you've read the book, have you?

>> I, have, read, the, book.

>> Then, you, wouldn't, say, that, I, bleep.

Because that was you meeting Mara Lago trying to win favor back because he was becoming the presumptive nominee needed to get back onto his side. But look

after spending years being a critique of or critic of his then you needed to win favor back when he never spent years as a critic of Trump. I've spent years I I've known Donald Trump nearly 20 years.

He's been a politician for the last 10 years of that period. In that time for example I used to write columns for the Daily Mail in America. I calculated

after his first term in office, I wrote about 120 columns about Trump. You can

go and check it. And about half were negative and half were positive. I do

think in Trump's first term, if people had been fairer to give him credit where he deserved it and criticized him when he deserved it, everyone would have been a lot better off. I feel it now. The

Trump derangement syndrome is a real thing. And he's wear that badge proudly.

thing. And he's wear that badge proudly.

>> I, know,, but, it's, kind, of, pathetic., It's

like when I hear people say, "He's the new Hitler." Really? Hitler murdered 12

new Hitler." Really? Hitler murdered 12 million people, including six million Jews in the Holocaust. You think Donald Trump is the new Hitler? You're aing

idiot. Okay, if we're going to talk about hyperbole here, we have focused half of the discussion today on trans issues. Well, we're not going to talk

issues. Well, we're not going to talk about things like, I don't know, Trump is in the Epstein files and he's using the government to cover it up.

>> Should, we, talk, about, that?, That, affects a lot of people. How about him denying the 2020 election and eroding the public's trust in our institutions and processes? That affects everybody. So

processes? That affects everybody. So

let's try not deflecting to the trans athletes conversation.

>> You've, just, brought, up, two, more, issues.

I'm happy to talk about that.

>> We'll, see, if, you, deflect., Go, on.

>> Well,, go, on., You, You, want, to, ask, me about them? Go on.

about them? Go on.

>> Okay., Well,, I'm, saying, let's, focus, on the issues that affect lots of people not deflect into a sport. Uh issues that affect very few people in the grand scheme of things.

>> Well,, let's, be, clear., The, number, of people, directly, affected, by, the epine scandal is probably 2,000.

>> What?, The, president, of, the, United, States covering up a pedophilia scandal affects everybody.

>> If, that's, what, he's, doing,, well, >> common, sense., You're, a, champion, of common sense.

>> Well,, I, can, tell, you, that, I've, spoken, to Virginia Dup Freay's lawyer multiple times, David Boyce. He's seen the files.

He does not believe there's anything against Trump in those files.

>> Okay.

>> What, happened, to, common, sense?

>> Well,, actually,, I, prefer, to, stick, to facts.

>> Hello.

>> Good, to, meet, you.

>> Nice, to, meet, you., What's, your, name?

>> My, name, is, Z.

>> Z.

>> Yeah.

>> Z.

>> Yes.

>> He, doesn't, know, what, that, means.

>> I, Yeah,, I, corrupted, him.

>> And, you're, sitting, with, each, other.

>> Okay., So,

>> that's, not, your, pronoun., That's, your name.

>> It's, my, name., Okay., My, pronouns, are, she, her.

>> Oh,, cool., Great., Great.

>> Um,, so, I, think, I, tend, to, agree, with, you mostly on the cancel culture stuff. In

fact, like I was cancelled back in April from this guy behind me. Um, yeah. And

so over over some over some woke stuff.

Okay.

>> Are, you, serious?

>> I'm, serious., Yeah.

>> What, do, they, do, to, you?

>> Well,, it, was, about, him.

>> It, was, about, microaggression., So,, but, my point is is that I think that the far-left tend to do this to shrink the democratic tent so that they don't have to take responsibility in winning

elections. And I do think that that's a

elections. And I do think that that's a very small portion of the far left >> except, they're, now, winning., They're, now winning powers. This mand

winning powers. This mand Well, first of all, I don't think Mum Donnie is considered the far left.

Parker and Mum Donnie are not in the same category to me because he believes in electoral power, right? But my point is is that you still as you still are stumping for Republicans as if Republicans

>> I, don't, stump, for, anybody.

>> Well,, Pierce,, I've, watched, your, show, a lot.

>> Then, you, would, know, I, don't, stump, for anybody.

>> Okay., But, you're, you, you, just, made, the defense in this argument for I think the guy before this last guy where you said that you think Republicans are better on free speech than than the >> have, been, in, the, last, two, years., Yes.

>> Right., Well,, and, I, totally, disagree, with you. Can we use Charlie Kirk as an

you. Can we use Charlie Kirk as an example? Do you think that Charlie Kirk

example? Do you think that Charlie Kirk stood for free speech? Absolutely

>> you, do.

>> Oh, my, god., Really?, How?, Tell, me, about that.

>> Charlie, Kirk, was, the, absolute personification of defending free speech. Really? Let me explain why.

speech. Really? Let me explain why.

Charlie Kirk had strong views about a lot of things. Many of which you probably don't agree with, I'm guessing.

>> Yeah.

>> But, Charlie, Kirk, week, after, week, around America would go on to university campuses knowing that most people there didn't agree with him. May have a preconceived view about him. Maybe

thought he was a fascist and all the other things they called him. And he

would sit there in his tent, sometimes outside as he was when he was appallingly assassinated, and he would say, "Prove me wrong." And people would line up and they come and have a debate like this. And he would listen to them

like this. And he would listen to them respectfully. He'd challenge them. He'd

respectfully. He'd challenge them. He'd

argue with them. That's that's not what happened. Sorry. That's exactly what

happened. Sorry. That's exactly what Charlie Kirk did.

>> Okay., As, somebody, that >> And, for, that,, he, got, a, bullet, in, the neck.

>> Okay., As, somebody, that, runs, the, counter organization to Charlie Kirk's turning point, that is not the point of what Charlie Kirk was doing. Charlie Kirk did not decide to debate high-profile debaters, people like Destiny or people

on the left that would actually give him a real debate. In fact, he even denied debating Dean Withers. I was literally with him when he did that. Okay. So

it's not like he was going in to have a real debate. He would go to these real

real debate. He would go to these real debate.

>> No,, he, would, go, to, these, college campuses to debate kids that were very much underprepared so that he could clip them and then raise money for Turning Point to go out there and then register voters. Okay.

voters. Okay.

>> I, think that, that's, and, I, think, that that's brilliant. Okay. That's why I'm

that's brilliant. Okay. That's why I'm trying to replicate it. But you cannot say that he was there for free speech cuz that's not really free speech.

Especially Hold on. Especially when

Charlie Kirk went and tried to deny he denied us from going into his events just because we were Democrats. He

canceled our permits even though we had permits that we paid for. That's not

free speech.

>> But, you, wouldn't, argue, that, he, would regularly, and I mean almost on a daily basis, debate with people who he didn't agree with.

>> College, students,, unprepared, college students. That's real. We throw we throw

students. That's real. We throw we throw back at you something which I'm interested about your response to this.

>> Yeah.

>> He, went, to, the, Oxford, Union, in, April, May this year.

>> Yeah,, he, did.

>> And, he, debated, a, guy, during, the appearance there who then became the president-elect of the Oxford Union who when Charlie Kurt was murdered reacted

by posting lol laughing out loud and then he said Charlie Kirk just got shot.

Let's effing go exclamation mark exclamation mark. He c well he

exclamation mark. He c well he celebrated the murder of Charlie Kirk who was killed let's be clear because he had views that the person who killed him didn't agree with

>> that, person, continue, to, want, to, be president of elect of a debating society do you agree that it's not a question of free speech or cancel culture that he was incompatible with the position of

being president of a debating society if you celebrate someone's murder for their speech >> yeah, I, I, agree, with, that, 100%, we, can agree with that >> I, watch, I, watch, the, way, a, lot, on, the woke left celebrated Ed posting and

these were teachers, nurses, doctors professors posting videos of themselves glorifying, celebrating the murder of Charlie Kirk. It was one of the most

Charlie Kirk. It was one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen.

>> Do, you, think, that, they, should, be, fired for that?

>> Yeah,, absolutely., They, should, be, fired for that.

>> How, are, you?

>> I'm, Rob.

>> Nice, to, meet, you,, Rob.

>> So,, I, think, we, are, conflating accountability with cancel culture. Um

I am the uh mayor of my hometown and if I came on here, Los Gatos, California if I came on here and said a bunch of bigoted things, my voters would righteously vote me out. I would be out

of a job. Uh, that's not cancel culture.

That's just common sense and and accountability. Can you tell me someone

accountability. Can you tell me someone who has been permanently cancelled? No

no, no. You're here today. People like

Bill Cosby don't get gigs because he's a pervert right?

>> I, can, tell, you, somebody, I, can, tell, you two people where there was a global effort to cancel us >> right?, And, one, was, me, and, it, came, after

>> right?, And, one, was, me, and, it, came, after the Oprah Winfrey wineathon where Megan and Harry trashed my royal family and trashed the monarchy in the most despicable, disingenuous manner

imaginable. 57,000

imaginable. 57,000 wokies bombarded the offcom television regulator. They weren't Good Morning

regulator. They weren't Good Morning Britain, the show I was doing viewers.

These were just woke left progressives who wanted me fired for disbelieving the claims about racism and mental health that were cited in that interview which have never been substantiated and which

I to this day do not believe. And I was told, you've got to apologize for this because the mob have come. You got to apologize or lose your job. a job I was doing very successfully, done it for

five years, trebled the ratings. We

justcliped the BBC as a number one morning show. I was at the peak of my

morning show. I was at the peak of my powers. But because I was exercising my

powers. But because I was exercising my right not to believe somebody who actually it turned out was spewing a lot of [ __ ] I had to leave my job because I wasn't going to apologize.

Now, let me give you this the subjunct of that, which is far worse. Sharon

Osborne, my longtime friend, was hosting a show here called The Talk on CBS.

She'd done it for 10 years. She loved

that job. She was brilliant at that job.

She defended me when asked about it. She

didn't defend what I'd said. She just

said,, "I'm, I'm, here., I'm I'm, here, for, my friend Pier, right? The black

co-panelist, Cheryl Underwood, played the race card on the next episode of the talk." She turned to Sharon on air and

talk." She turned to Sharon on air and said out of nowhere, this wasn't planned, "Why did you support someone who said racist things?" I had never said anything racist about Megan Markle.

Sharon obviously under attack saying she'd been supporting a racist and by definition must therefore be a racist said well what's he said that's racist at which point Cheryl Underwood went on

this ridiculous little Hang on there's a point to my point to it Cheryl just said well it's not so much that he said racist things it's kind of the way he said stuff. So Sharon says

said stuff. So Sharon says >> is, this, what, you, think, people, are talking about wait yes I'm going to come to it. So Sharon says this and then she

to it. So Sharon says this and then she says, "I'm not accusing you of being racist, Sharon." Sharon says, "I think

racist, Sharon." Sharon says, "I think that ship has sailed." Here's what happened to Sharon >> for, a, job, she, loved., She, was, bombarded with death threats, online mayhem vilified, shamed, people saying, "Fire

her." Wait a minute. Let me finish. Let

her." Wait a minute. Let me finish. Let

me finish. Fire, fire, fire, fire, fire her. Death threats as well. She

her. Death threats as well. She

eventually is showed a groveling sobbing apology. It still wasn't enough.

sobbing apology. It still wasn't enough.

She got fired from that job. For what?

For absolutely nothing. For the next year, she had the worst year of her life.

>> I, don't, think, I, don't, think, that's, what people talk about when she was she was left.

>> When, you're, talking, about, cancel culture, >> wait,, you're, talking, about, cancel culture, saying like no one has ever talking about comedians who make a racist joke and somebody who doesn't want to listen to them anymore.

>> What, about, Sharon, Osborne?

>> I, I I, don't, know, much, about, that., That

sounds I No, that sounds that sounds bad. I I wouldn't cancel Sharon.

bad. I I wouldn't cancel Sharon.

>> Why, did, I, Why, did, I, have, to, leave, my, job for disbelieving Megan Markle?

>> I, I, I, don't, know., I, cancel, culture.

>> Yeah.

>> Nice, to, meet, you., Thank, you.

>> Hello.

>> Hi,, Amanda.

>> Amanda,, nice, to, meet, you.

>> Nice, to, meet, you.

>> So,, cancel, culture., Um,, I'm, trying, to understand is it that you believe it's something that's not necessary within society to hold people accountable? Is

it >> I, do, I, I, do, think, accountability, is, very important and individual companies are perfectly entitled to operate their own policies. What I'm talking about is

policies. What I'm talking about is where the woke mob normally through social media would pile pressure and it's not exclusive to them. I've seen it happen with the right as well would pile

pressure on companies on institutions to fire people often for what in my opinion were things that might be offensive to people or whatever but they're not at the bar where they should lose their

livelihoods.

>> Well,, I, do, understand., I, mean, there's, a line when it comes to cancel culture where there are things that are taken too far where people do lose their jobs for certain things that some people may find offensive or some people might not find offensive. I mean, free free

find offensive. I mean, free free speech, you know, the whole point of the whole point of free speech is it's not about you and I agreeing. Exactly.

>> It's, about, our, ability, to, listen, to, each other and maybe you even saying hateful things to me. If they don't cross the bar of criminality, you're allowed to do that and I should just suck it up. I

don't have to like it, but I have to tolerate the fact in a free democratic society like United States with the First Amendment, you're entitled to do that.

>> And, see,, that's, where, I, disagree., I

don't feel that it has to reach a a bar of criminality in order for it to be something that someone has to be held accountable for. Though we have free

accountable for. Though we have free speech, there do there does have to be lines drawn because there are things that are inappropriate regardless. you

know, as you said when you were discussing um books that are banned or certain things, the remarks you made about Megan Marggo, I don't agree that's something that you should be fired for.

But I do see why there are people and you need to look outside of your own perspective. There are people who felt

perspective. There are people who felt that you needed to be cancelled for such an instance.

>> Why?, Black, women,, especially, around, the world in the global west, they're oftentimes not listened to and their problems, their pain, their mental health are oftent times disregarded or

undermined. And so that's also been a

undermined. And so that's also been a problem in gynecology, which is why we see maternal rates for black women.

>> Do, you, believe, Megan, Markle?

>> I, believe, Megan, Markle., Really?

>> I, Why, wouldn't, I, believe?

>> Let, me, give, an, example, of, why, you probably shouldn't. So, she said in that

probably shouldn't. So, she said in that interview that she and Harry were married secretly by the Archbishop of Canterbury 3 days before the public wedding. Had that been true, the

wedding. Had that been true, the Archbishop of Canterbury would have committed a crime and would have gone to prison.

>> Yes.

>> Did, you, ever, see, him, go, to, prison?

>> No,, I, did, not.

>> Did, that, make, you, think, that, maybe, that never happened?

>> Um,, honestly,, no., It, did, not, make, that something that did did not occur. I want

to answer your They said in that interview that senior members of the royal family, who we now know through a leaked copy of the book where the names appeared, were supposedly then Prince Charles, now King Charles, and Katherine

Williams wife >> made, comments, that, they, were, concerned about the potential skin color of the unborn baby. Do you believe on balance

unborn baby. Do you believe on balance that that's likely to have happened?

>> Absolutely.

>> Really?

>> Absolutely., coming, from, the, British institution. That's something that has

institution. That's something that has been, you know, for centuries trying to maintain the purity of the blood. You

know, something that has been within British >> being, white,, can, they?

>> No,, I'm, not, saying >> what, are, you, suggesting?

>> Something, being, white,, if, you're purposely trying to preserve it, it is something that you are doing.

>> You're, not, purposely, trying, to, preserve the way they are bread for years. I have

studied English aristocracy for a >> You, think, just, to, be, clear,, you, think the royal family have been deliberately trying to stay white.

>> What, I, will, say, is, that, conservatism, al often times does have to tie with the purity of white um whiteness and white culture. And so there are a large

culture. And so there are a large majority of conservatives who do see whiteness as the main basis of being a conservative of something that's very important that they need to preserve.

And it's why a lot of times they excludes exclude minorities and why they feel as though things such as wokeness are poor. They they shouldn't be

are poor. They they shouldn't be included because it's giving that pathway.

>> What, should, worry, you, more, is, that having set off this absolute inferno about the royal family being a bunch of callous racists.

>> Where's, it?, Harry, then, wrote, a, book., Do

you remember the book spare?

>> Yes,, I, have.

>> 420, odd, pages, of, his, life, story., Do, you know the two things that didn't appear in that book? I informed him >> the, racism, allegations, against, his family about the skin color of their unborn child and the fact that the

Buckingham Palace officials apparently told Megan Markle she couldn't get help for her suicidal thoughts. Those two

things never got repeated, never appeared in their documentary, never appeared in the book. They just

vanished.

>> It, didn't, appear, in, the, documentary., I

did watch >> when, Harry, was, asked, about, it >> uh, recently., He, said,, "Oh,, no,, no., It

was the media that put a racist uh tone on this. I never meant to say my family

on this. I never meant to say my family were racist. Oh, yes you did.

were racist. Oh, yes you did.

>> We, all, watched, what, you, guys, said.

>> Sorry.

>> It's, okay.

>> That, was, great.

>> Thank, you.

>> I, enjoyed, it., Nice, to, meet, you.

>> Nice, to, meet, you,, too.

>> Oh,, hey,, Shane.

>> Good, to, see, you,, Shane.

>> Nice, to, meet, you., I, want, to, take, it, back all the way to your original claim, and you've said a lot of examples. I don't

think you provided a single example of how cancel culture is a violation of free speech.

>> Okay,, I'll, give, you, one., The, two, weeks before the election where Biden won, the New York Post got an exclusive story about Hunter Biden's laptop.

>> Sure.

>> It, was >> fantastic.

>> Okay., And, people, can, laugh., Actually

contained incredibly damage damaging information which may have led to serious charges against a lot of the Biden family. We now will never know

Biden family. We now will never know because they've all been pardoned.

>> But, but, this, story, this, story, was suppressed by the left in the most disgraceful manner imaginable. The left

at the time being all the tech giants who were find suppressed.

>> They, literally, banned, the, New, York, Post account from their platforms. >> Okay.

>> Until, they, took, down, the, front, page exclusive.

>> Free, speech, isn't, protected, on, what platform you can speak on. These are

private.

>> You're, asking, me, for, an, example, of cancel culture.

>> I'm, No,, I'm, I, asked, you, for, an, example of violation of free speech, which is >> that, is, a, violation, of >> which, is, a, promise, that, the, government will not come in and arrest you for anything you say. You you are not entitled to viewers on your show just

because people agree with you.

>> I, agree., Shane,, let, me, make, my, point.

You asked me for an example of where free speech had been suppressed.

>> A, major, Yeah., violated.

>> Not, suppressed., Violated.

>> Violated., A, major, national, American newspaper of 100 plus years standing the New York Post, had its account taken down on social media.

>> Okay., Did, anyone, get, arrested?, because

they were exposing a true story about the son of the man who would be president and became president in a way that was directly intended to benefit Joe Biden and hinder Donald Trump's

chances of winning that election and I don't agree with that.

>> So, that's, what, I, mean.

>> But, how, was, anyone, arrested?

>> What, do, you, mean, arrested?

>> Was, any, was, any, free, speech, violated that the government stepped in and arrested?

>> Well,, I, just, told, you, the, story, of Graeme who was arrested >> at, the, Heathrow, airport.

>> Yeah.

>> In, the, UK.

>> Yeah.

>> You, don't, have, free, speech, in, the, UK.

Well, that's part of the problem. I

agree.

>> That, sounds, like, a, UK, problem,, not, a, US problem.

>> US, has, a, big, problem.

>> So,, what, it, has, a, problem,, but, where, has free speech been violated because No you gave me one at Heathrow airport.

>> I'll, give, you, the, New, York, Post, example.

>> Who, has, been, arrested?

>> As, a, result, of, cancel, culture, because someone has said something that was either bigotry, racist, sexist, whatever it is, and people are not entitled to have viewers based on their opinions.

>> I'm, not, saying, they, are., If, people disagree with you, they can say, "Oh we're, not, going to, watch, you, anymore."

They're going to go out in social media and say, "Hey, everybody, let's stop watching this person because he came out as racist."

as racist." >> 100%.

>> Okay., And, that's, not, a, violation, of, free speech.

>> No., Sharon, Osborne, was, fired,, as, I, just told you.

>> Also,, not, a, violation, of, free, speech.

>> Of, course,, it, was.

>> 49, states, are, at, will, employee, states.

>> Companies, can, fire, you, for, any, reason that is not related to discrimination.

>> I, I, agree., It's, I've, already, said, I think you're misunderstanding me. I've

already >> I, think, you're, misunderstanding, me., I've

already said that companies are perfectly entitled to do what they like.

They're private businesses, right? So

CBS was perfectly entitled to do it. But

was it a violation of Sharon's free speech rights what they did? Yes.

>> No,, not, a, violation.

>> It, was, a, suppression., It, was, I, don't agree with it. What's the difference?

>> I, think, the, people, she, didn't, get arrested for what she said.

>> Well,, violation, doesn't, just, mean, you get arrested.

>> Yes., A, vi, being, violated, of, your, free speech. Being able to not

speech. Being able to not >> I, can, violate, you, without, involving arresting you.

>> Is, that, what, you, see, when, you, look, at me?, You, want to, violate, me?

me?, You, want to, violate, me?

>> No., That, is, what, we, have, in, our constitution that is protected. You can

say and do whatever you want.

>> You, have, better, protections, here, than, we do in the UK.

>> I, agree.

>> But, your, speech, is, protected., You, can, be as hateful, as angry, as misogynistic as you want to be, and people can hate you for that. Yeah.

for that. Yeah.

>> Consequences., You, do, not, have, a, right, to be on a platform and get to say whatever you want. You can.

you want. You can.

>> But, if, I, say,, but, people, don't, have, to watch.

>> If, I, say, right, now, on, camera,, I, think you should be shot dead, that is actually a criminal offense. And I would be arrested. If you said you wanted to

be arrested. If you said you wanted to shoot me dead or you're encouraging people to shoot me dead, that is not protected free speech. That is a threat.

>> Correct., It's, it's, a, it's, a, crime.

>> You, saying, I, should, be, shot, dead., My

point being >> and, that, makes, you, look, like, a, terrible person, >> right?, Not, all, Yeah,, I, agree.

>> right?, Not, all, Yeah,, I, agree.

>> And, you're, not, going to, be, arrested, for that.

>> Well,, I've, already, made, the, point, that hateful speech has to be tolerated in a free democratic society, right? Where it

passes the bar of criminality, then obviously the law enforcement take over and that's how it should be. That the

problem comes and it's been more of a problem in my country than here. I

agree. But I do think in terms of suppressing free speech, what was going on with things like the New York Post story being suppressed was absolutely disgraceful.

>> I, agree., We're, not, disagreeing, on, that.

>> Your, claim, was, a >> Let's, end, on, a, point, of, agreement., We

end up agreeing. I love that.

Um, Parker, you're too annoying. Uh

Nick, I've chosen Nick to come back for the final debate, which will be his debate because he impressed me during our conversation earlier. And I that cannot be said about everybody that sat

bes me today. So Nick, come to the chair.

>> Good, to, talk, to, you, again,, Pierce.

>> Welcome, back.

>> My, surrounded, claim, is, that, discussions of woke politics are merely a distraction from our common enemy, the billionaire class. So, as I just said, I

billionaire class. So, as I just said, I think that these discussions of woke whether we think we're saying that the problems in society are because of broke graduate students or people that are being mean to us on Twitter, ultimately

it's all secondary to what really unites us. I think that it's woke to talk about

us. I think that it's woke to talk about the fact that the the middle America the industrial heartland of Britain have been hollowed out by forces of globalization, outsourcing jobs to places like China, India or Malaysia or

Vietnam. and that these talking about

Vietnam. and that these talking about trans athletes, talking about what people choose to identify themselves as it's all so unimportant. And 80, 90, 95% of what actually matters is what's going

to put more money in people's pockets what's going to let them have a dignified life for them and their family. And talking about wokeness

family. And talking about wokeness whether it's dead or alive, it's just a distraction and it's really not important or relevant to most of our lives 95% of the time.

>> Okay., I, think, you, can, the, first, part, I agreed with about the globalization. I

think it's spot on. And also I'm not trying to claim that the wokeism cultural war issues are more important than globalization or the impact as you

say of nefarious billionaires around the world having too much power and money with the disparity between them and the poorest parts of society getting bigger and bigger. I have very strong views

and bigger. I have very strong views about that. Nor am I trying to say that

about that. Nor am I trying to say that you know, the the debate about pronouns is in any way as significant as a debate I have all the time about the war in Gaza or the war in Ukraine. I just think you can have all these debates at the

same time and to pretend as the woke left do that none of these culture wars cut through or matter is to be completely deluded. And I would simply

completely deluded. And I would simply say to you that there was a UN report came out and it said I think it was 2024 uh nearly 900 medals in competitive women's sport. To

come back to that issue we discussed had been deprived from actual women because trans athletes had won them. That's a

staggeringly large number of girls and women who've been deprived of their rightful medal competing in women's sport because of the altar of trans activism driven by the woke. See, this

is my trouble, Pierce, with talking about trans athletes because functionally you're talking about 900 medals given out to people. I don't I don't know.

>> My, thing, is, that, an, 8-year-old, winning, a track and field meet doesn't really affect me.

>> What, about, Riley, Gains, California?, What

about Riley Gains? He's done a campaign.

But what about Riley Gains? I mean, why should Leah talk?

>> This, is, exactly, my, point., This, whole discussion of trans athletes has nothing to do with what actually matters to people's lives. I don't agree with you.

people's lives. I don't agree with you.

You're talking about it because all due respect gets a lot of clicks, gets a lot of viewers books. I don't agree with it.

>> And, these, other, issues, are, much, more important. But

important. But >> and, you, know, who, you, know, who, leads, that campaign are saying no one cares? The

woke left. Most of whom think it's absolutely fine. Most of whom think

absolutely fine. Most of whom think someone like Riley Gates the enemy is standing up for women's rights.

>> Is, you're, saying, that, we, have, time, to debate all of these issues. But

practically we know that society prioritizes different issues.

>> How, much, time, do, you, think, are, spent, on the Israel Hamas war compared to wokeism in the last calendar year?

>> A, lot, of, time, has, been, spent, on, the Israel Gaza war. A lot of people have died. Give me a percentage of how much

died. Give me a percentage of how much time I personally devoted to work.

>> I'm, not, sitting, here, with, a, stopwatch going how much time is spent on what I know is not nearly enough time is being spent poverty. These are the issues that

spent poverty. These are the issues that matter. There are a million issues you

matter. There are a million issues you may not care about the transet issue. I

can tell you millions of people do. Who

are you all due respect to have the arrogance to tell people what they should be caring about? You can compare.

You can >> I'm, not, trying, to, tell, them, not, to, care about it. I don't think it should be at

about it. I don't think it should be at the top or even in the top 10 of the issues they actually are talking about.

>> That's, entirely, your, prerogative., But

you should not be arrogant enough to assume you know what people care about.

I know from the work I did on this book and this tour I've been doing and the conversations I've been having a huge number of people do care about this.

They genuinely have felt that the woke left have turned the world into a joyless horrible place where everyone gets scolded, vilified, cancelled shamed, and sometimes shot because of

what they're saying.

>> But, this, is, the, matter, of, social, media and the way that public discourse works is instead of talking about the issues that are the most relevant to people's lives. I'm not talking about whether

lives. I'm not talking about whether they care or not, but I'm talking about relevance, how much it actually matters to your life. The

>> economics, you, have, any, kids?

>> I, do, not, have, any.

>> Okay., If, you, had, a, daughter,, I've, got, a 13-year-old daughter. She's showing no

13-year-old daughter. She's showing no sign of doing this, but if she had aspirations to be an Olympian, for example, would you feel differently if her Olympic place was taken by a trans athlete?

>> I, I, do, not, want, anyone's, Olympic, dreams to be crushed, but I think that their ability to get a well-paying job is much more important and something we should be focused on.

>> Then, you, made, it, clear, you, think, that the Olympic dream is irrelevant.

>> I, I, I, much, prefer, to, focus, on, the American dream than an Olympic dream personally.

>> So,, you, have, your, fixed, set, of, things that you care about. I respect that right? A lot of people will

right? A lot of people will >> but, again, watch, everybody, cares, about these things but they don't work people up as much and so it doesn't get as much airplay of course they do.

>> No, we, we, all, know, that, if, this, was, a discussion about the minutiae of healthcare policy it would not get as many viewers as an hourlong conversation about trans athletes. Come on we know this.

>> You, don't, think, that, issues, for, example like the wars in Ukraine and Gaza get people angry and passionate?

>> If, it, bleeds, it, bleeds, of, course, that matters. Of course war and peace is

matters. Of course war and peace is incredibly important. Do you think the

incredibly important. Do you think the issue of globalization and the fact impact on people's jobs and lives has not been the subject of a lot of passionate angry animated?

>> I, think, it, gets, far, less, airtime, than, it deserves because what we see is that whether you're on the right populist side or the left populous side, they've all got their fingers squarely aimed at the puppet masters pulling the strings

behind our whole system. But it's the people in the middle. And this is what I wish people would really understand at home. It is not the left that pushed

home. It is not the left that pushed woke politics or identity politics. It

was neoliberals who wanted to have the the current system maintain the status quo but give people who hadn't had a stake in that system more representation within it. But the fact is that for most

within it. But the fact is that for most people whether the CEO of Lockheed Martin is a trans black woman does not matter. What matters for most people is

matter. What matters for most people is whether they have a job that actually is able to pay the rent that they can own have a hope of owning a home that they can marry who they like to. That stuff

matters. It only matters if the black trans leader of a company has only got that job because they're black and trans and not on ability because then you move into a country and society which prize

itself on mediocrity over meritocracy. I

believe in opportunity for all at the bottom row. But once that ladder starts

bottom row. But once that ladder starts I believe only people should get to the top.

>> The, people, getting, tens, of, millions, of stock options are not my priority. The

person making minimum wage that's my priority. The best quote about DEI I've

priority. The best quote about DEI I've heard was Ste Steven Pinket who said the rather like the Holy Roman Empire which ended up being neither Holy Roman or really an empire. That's what DEI

became. It's supposed to be diverse

became. It's supposed to be diverse equal and inclusive ended up being none of those things. And that's the problem.

So, we, should, be, look, one, of the, good things about this conversation. It's

been a conversation. I don't think enough of this happens where people don't just scream at each other. I've

actually found this an engaging environment to talk in. I like being challenged. You've all given me a little

challenged. You've all given me a little something to think about. You in

particular, that's why I brought you back. These are good conversations to

back. These are good conversations to have. I'm not saying you're

have. I'm not saying you're intrinsically wrong that your priority list is not more important. I think it probably is. Right. But I also think the

probably is. Right. But I also think the idea that millions and millions of people around the world, tens of millions, hundreds of millions probably do not care about those other issues, is deluded. But this is why I chose the

deluded. But this is why I chose the prompt that I did because I know that when I get upset about something, it clouds out a lot of other things that I should be thinking about, but I get so focused on the thing I'm angry about.

This is why woke politics has become such a useful canard for people of all political persuasions because it does get people worked up because it does speak to basic issues of identity and belonging and meaning. And when you

undermine that, people do get really upset. And what that does is it takes

upset. And what that does is it takes away their emotional and intellectual bandwidth from the things that would materially improve their lives. And that

is why I think that this whole conversation, not that it's not important, but it should not be crowding out as it is in our public discourse all the other issues that are so so much

more important. That's why you saw I

more important. That's why you saw I know you don't agree with Mandani in New York. Manny did not run a campaign on

York. Manny did not run a campaign on woke politics. He aimed it squarely at

woke politics. He aimed it squarely at cost of living, affordability issues and he won more votes than anybody in New York City in the last 16 years.

>> Hang, on., He, also, promised,, like, all, good socialists, he's going to give everyone everything for free. And let me tell you what's >> I'll, tell, you, what., Buses, are, free, for most people in New York already. So, you

know, let me tell you what's going to happen with Ma Dan. You can take this to the bank because socialism has never worked anywhere in the world for any sustained period of time. Ma'ami is

going to let down all the people that voted for him because he will not be able to afford to do anything like the stuff he says he's going to do. You can

take it.

>> Well,, this, is, where, I, agree, with, you.

Definitions matter. Socialism is about public ownership of the means of production. Zoran Mani is not proposing

production. Zoran Mani is not proposing seizing uh you know JP Morgan's building.

>> He, literally, said, he, wants, to, take control of productivity.

>> I, have, not, seen, he's, a, communist.

>> He, is, not, a, communist.

>> Literally, that, is, the, rhetoric, of, a communist.

>> He, is, not, a, communist., And, again >> if, you, want, to, drink, Kool-Aid, fine, with you right he is a communist masquerade.

>> It's, good, to, have, more, candidates, like York has never had a guy like Mani who are focused on cost of living and affordability. speaking to the issues

affordability. speaking to the issues that actually matter in people's lives.

Child care being $22,000 a year. We may

disagree on how to provide that child care, but you're speaking to an issue that affects 80% of families, 80% of parents. So, let's talk about that more.

parents. So, let's talk about that more.

>> I, agree.

>> Trans, athletes,, with, all, due, respect, you you brought up Riley Gains. There

might be a couple of others, but we're talking about a vanishingly small number. And what I'm concerned about is

number. And what I'm concerned about is the little girl who just wants to be on a team, who just wants to participate in her community. And I look at all the

her community. And I look at all the young California children who saw trans athletes participating and they didn't care at all, man. So why does everybody else when the kids get that this is >> Here's, what, happens,, Nick., I, know, you're

going to get your little round of >> I, know, it's, easy,, but, when, the, little girls grow up and they get to be Riley Gains and they're actually competing for a living and this is their livelihood and their dream and they dream of

getting to win competitions and get to the Olympics.

>> Well,, luckily, Riley, didn't, become anything, did she? She's just a commentator. Actually, she did become

commentator. Actually, she did become >> her, Olympic, dream, was, shadowy, sadly never going to be. You may be glib about it, but actually what happened is a 6' 3 in biological male came in and began to

destroy the integrity of women's swimming in America. You may not think that matters. I do. That's why I talk a

that matters. I do. That's why I talk a lot about this. That's why Riley's been brave to talk about it. It's why JK Rowling was brave to talk about it. And

the idea that she I know you can all vilify JK Rowling. I don't even like her. She hates me. She called me a

her. She hates me. She called me a disgusting toading Trump apologist on Bill when I was on Bill Maher once when I got told to [ __ ] off. So I've got no Trump for her whatsoever. Right. But on

that issue, I've loudly supported her.

Which is kind of what I feel about the Trump thing, by the way. Is it the hysteria that goes around him, it doesn't help anybody. You're better off saying where Trump does something good.

For example, if I was to ask you as a group, is it good that Trump has basically shut the southern border down after the Biden administration let in 10 million people illegally over that border in four years? And there may be a

conservative estimate. Is that a good

conservative estimate. Is that a good thing? The the honest, intellectually

thing? The the honest, intellectually honest answer should be yes. Are there

issues now about the way ICE has been going around picking up undocumented people who may have built their lives here, contributed to society and so on?

Absolutely.

>> I'm, glad, you, made, the, point, for, me, so, I didn't have to.

>> Absolutely., So, there, are, caveats, to, my support for the overall policy, but on the southern border, everybody should be able to say that's a good thing. And

they should also applaud Trump for trying to forge peace in places around the world where there is war. Be it Gaza where he got the hostages out.

So my so my point is if the hysteria just dials down a touch and actually we try and do what we've done here, right?

bring bring people a bit more together have a bit more consensus, give credit where it's due, criticize where it's due, but sometimes agree to disagree.

You know, I I'm not saying you're wrong with your priority list. I'm just saying that I think to exclude these other things is disingenuous from my perspective because I think it is important, but we can agree to disagree

about that. And I'm not saying that your

about that. And I'm not saying that your priority list is in any way invalid because it's not.

>> Well,, I, think, we, found, some, middle ground here, but that's the wrong show.

>> Yeah., You, know, what?, just, in, case, they want to end. You know what, NICK? I'VE

ALWAYS HATED YOU. BUT thank you so much.

>> Thanks, >> I, think, he's, intentionally, not, really aligned with either. I think he likes to punch the left from the center. I think

he likes to punch the right from the center. I think he's kind of all over

center. I think he's kind of all over the map depending on the issue he's talking about. So, I don't I don't think

talking about. So, I don't I don't think you can neatly categorize him into this block or that block, which frankly I think we need more of in our politics. I

literally still, even after debating him and hearing his takes, still have no idea who the he is.

>> The, problem, I, have, with, a, lot, of, the wokies when it comes to the debating, I do feel like they've been infected with a weird virus, which gives them a kind of self-righteousness that their

positioning is not only right, but it's the only acceptable worldview. I have

grown, I think, more intellectually honest as I've got older about accepting when I've been wrong. You've got to know that when facts are facts and if facts change in particular, you got to move

where the facts go. And you mustn't be intrangent that your worldview, even if it's science and biology denying, is the only acceptable view. I recommend anyone reading books that they fundamentally

disagree with. So if you are somebody

disagree with. So if you are somebody who considers themselves woke and liberal, read it. If you are a conservative you'll be just confirmation bias.