Psikiyatrik Tanılar Sandığınız Kadar Bilimsel Değil! | Dr. Sami Timimi ile Söyleşi

Okay. So Dr. Timimi, is it okay if I call you Dr. Timimi? Do you want me to call you in any other way? Just call me Sami. Sami. Okay. Much easier. Okay. Sami, thanks for being here. I'm so honored

way? Just call me Sami. Sami. Okay. Much easier. Okay. Sami, thanks for being here. I'm so honored that you accepted my invitation. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really thrilled to have you uh and to talk to you about your book, Searching for Normal. And thank you for to your publicist

for sending me this copy. I read it as an ebook and I'm so glad that I have a hard copy now. So,

Dr. Timimi. I've been following your work and you've been such a um interesting and loud voice in this critical approach to psychiatry. And in my YouTube channel as well, I was I' I've been talking about your book so much. I talked about Foucault and other kind of intellectuals who are

critical of also psychiatry and how it plays out as a power political power tool. And I talked to you. So I talked about your books on so many different occasions on my YouTube channel. So

you. So I talked about your books on so many different occasions on my YouTube channel. So

you're a celebrity I name call your name all the time. First of all I wanted to ask you about the backlash that you received personally because even like on my ADHD video which I basically talked about you your book and I was just a vessel about what your arguments are there and the

backlash in the comment section was very intense and people seem to take it very personally and people are just so uncomfortable about these kind of more counter mainstream narrative

arguments. So professionally, personally, what kind of backlash have you received? I've had

arguments. So professionally, personally, what kind of backlash have you received? I've had

some issues in the past in my professional life with my employers and sometimes with some of the other psychiatrists. But I've also found that the when you work in a mental health setting

other psychiatrists. But I've also found that the when you work in a mental health setting and you work with professionals from other backgrounds like therapists, psychologists,

specialist nursing staff actually when you get to a chance to speak to them a lot of them and I've been doing a lot of workshops to various people from various backgrounds professional and lay.

But a lot of people are wondering what the hell is going on? Why have we had so many more people being diagnosed with these conditions? Mhm. Um why has it so many more children having these

mental health difficulties? Why do things appear to be getting worse? What what is going on? So,

I think there's a lot of people who are um maybe sometimes secretly questioning what what is it.

So actually I've come to the conclusion that the um arguments I'm putting forward some of them are opinions but most of them are simply a restatement of the factual of the scientific

situation is the majority opinion amongst um mental health professionals. I think the issue we have is that the public narrative or what the public tend to hear from those who have institutional power is actually a minority opinion now. It's a minority opinion because

it's not scientifically based. It's it's a it's a cultural system. So I've had some some backlash but not as much as you might think. And since I've published the book, since I've published the book, um, I've done quite a few public events. And each time I've been warned, you know, prepare yourself

because there's going to be people there who are who are going to be very upset about these opinions. And it just hasn't happened. It um it really just hasn't happened. And I I think again

opinions. And it just hasn't happened. It um it really just hasn't happened. And I I think again that's because there's a lot of people who are asking these questions who are quite confused.

I've done quite a few um of these presentations and it's not been unusual that after I finished the presentation, you know, people come to talk to you and so on and I've had several people come and talk to me who were saying I'm I'm really glad I came and listened to you because I've just had

an assessment for this that and the other and now I don't think that's the right way for me to go. Now I'm kind of thinking because and I was worried about what it meant that um and I've also

to go. Now I'm kind of thinking because and I was worried about what it meant that um and I've also had from professionals coming to me after these presentations and and saying something similar.

Okay, now now I get it. Now I understand why nothing seemed to make sense to me. Why

um I kept having this feeling that what we're doing or what we're saying doesn't sound right.

So strangely enough I'm still waiting for the push back. I do I do visit my section. I do I do um do a I mean maybe the other reason is that um I was this is um searching for normal is I've

written several books before but they've largely been for a niche audience mainly academic mainly critical audiences things like that. Um I've also read the thinking ADHD and your autism your book on autism as well. Yes. Yeah. Good. They were also So this this is the first book

that's um a more commercial book. So more widely publicized. Um and my um publishers and publicists said I should go on social media. Um, so I've tried to do social media, mainly X, I think. Um,

but I'm trying to do some of the other ones. Um, but I'm really not interested in social media. So,

I don't really read the comments. Every now and then I read comments and, you know, there might be critical comments and I think, well, that's fine. That's your opinion. I'm not going to need you. You mean nothing to me. So why should I take it seriously? So maybe that's also part of

you. You mean nothing to me. So why should I take it seriously? So maybe that's also part of the reason why it doesn't feel like I've had push back. Okay. Well, it it it felt like you had push back to me according to my YouTube comments, but it's glad I'm glad that that you didn't experience

that negative backlash. Um so I'm a I studied in the University of Manchester actually. I studied

philosophy and I'm a philosophy teacher now and also so I have a philosophy back philosophical background and that's what I feel like I'm the I'm more I have more expertise on and I'm teaching an AP psychology course so I was always looking at like what I'm teaching critically from an

epistemological perspective from a philosophical perspective and I'm like okay some of this data doesn't make sense like it doesn't hold up it's not as scientific as the curriculum makes it out to be. So I was very inspired by your work because it's kind of um made all of my all of those clouds

to be. So I was very inspired by your work because it's kind of um made all of my all of those clouds of questions concrete and also you're coming from the field so your expertise is immensely

um valuable as well in that respect and I was wondering as I was your reading your book you mentioned in your book that your formative years were in Iraq you grew up in Iraq and you know I I'm living in Turkey. I was I've been living here for the past like 32 years. And

um I this is my theory but because you experienced both that eastern kind of Middle Eastern mentality and that very Anglo Anglospheric western mentality. I think that kind of contributes to your how you can think outside the box and take another perspective. Do you think that your

background contributed to your critical stance in any way? Yes, I I very much think that's the case.

Well, I came to England as a 14year-old. This is back in 1978 when the political situation was deteriorating because I have an English mother and my father was from Iraq and um I was sent to stay

with relatives in England. My older brother was also sent to stay with other relatives in England to try and escape the situation um with military conscription age coming and so on. , and it was a very disorientating experience when you realize that the sort of unwritten rules of how you're

meant to behave, of the social expectations um, were were so different. And it was also my first experience of being an outsider of being treat of of experiencing bullying and being treated

in certain ways by a peer group. so that is one of the things that I think helps you appreciate that there are different ways of um understanding and living in the world. there's almost like a

different systems of truth, different systems. Um, but in some ways it goes back even earlier than that because when I was growing up in Iraq, I was um very close to a lot of my extended family and particularly some of my cousins who became very religious and um so they were older than me and

used to talk to me a lot about religion. And then my parents were um my father in particular was a follower of Lenin and socialism and Okay. I think we had the same father.

and so he was a fervent atheist. I assume he was. Yes. and and so I would come back and and have these discussions with him and so even then I was already being exposed to the idea that

truth claims. Yeah. you know that that there can be very different ways of looking at the world.

And then when I was um when I started my training in psychiatry and I be I was very interested in psychotherapy early on and I started reading um the classic um psychoanalytic papers and books

from people like Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung. um but also um the being exposed to the psychiatric literature and of course I had an interest in cross-cultural psychiatry and from very early

on I thought this group of people are looking down at my culture. Mhm. the way it was written that um this was so there was talk that's been going on for a long time about the civilized world

and the rest of the world is sort of mired in superstition and not yet psychologically developed to the extent of the civilized world. So that kind of colonial mindset was running through a lot of and the same with with psychiatric literature. It was assumed the categories that we were using

in psychiatry were the universal categories. But when you didn't find them presenting in the same way in other cultures, it's because they were not psychologically minded. That was a common one. In

other words, oh depression is the same. It's it's depression all around the world, but in other cultures, people present with physical symptoms because they're not psychologically minded. They

don't present with Yeah. No. You know, so so sorry. I don't know, maybe you've heard of this book called Mad Like Crazy Like Us, the globalization of the American psyche. I also made a video on that. So like our interests overlap a lot. Yes. Yeah. So that that is an important book.

and it's a very nice book because it's easy to read and and you see those concepts in very easy to understand language but there's a lot of people who are writing about these issues and a a close colleague of mine who sadly passed away earlier this year Suman Fernando wrote a lot

of really important books and papers about these issues. is Derek Somerfield is another one, China Mills. Um there's a whole host of people. this is stuff that I started coming across um as I became

Mills. Um there's a whole host of people. this is stuff that I started coming across um as I became more curious about what's going on here and um sadly initially I had internalized that idea that

I had come from a psychologically more primitive culture. Yeah. Yeah. You you self It took a while.

Yes. It took a while to realize, hang on a minute, what's going on here? And of course, um, in in Western culture, there's a much stronger individualist orientation, much stronger idea that

the self resides within. And , a focus on the self and a focus on how you're feeling. And , as a focus like an obsession, I think it's like to an unhealthy level like Yeah. Yeah. you you also mentioned in your book like that much inward looking is good for no one like and you need

to turn outward maybe. Um, so I was because I received a lot lot of backlash especially in Turkey. I think it makes a more geographical cultural sense because everyone's like we're just

in Turkey. I think it makes a more geographical cultural sense because everyone's like we're just you know trying to reach up to the level of the Europeans in terms of positivism and what you call the scientism like we need to be looking at the positivist way of life like scientific knowledge

is the only valid knowledge. Why are you being critical? we're just getting reaching to the point of you know what Europeans accept and globally accept as knowledge valid knowledge. So I think there was especially in the Turkish psychiatric psychological context the the backlash I received

is due to that as well. We're like they they were like or our people are already spiritualistic why are you making them question the scientific authorities kind of thing. Um and lots of psychiatrists wrote to me like you're you're sharing these ideas now people will um negatively

react when we try to prescribe them medicine and I'm like okay if it's not good for them then why are you prescribing it? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Um okay. So it that makes me think of um Frantz Fannon. Um

Frantz Fannon who wrote two very important books u black skins white masks and the wretched of the earth. Yeah. And he spoke about this dynamic and I it's a dynamic that is very familiar to me. Mhm.

earth. Yeah. And he spoke about this dynamic and I it's a dynamic that is very familiar to me. Mhm.

And it's the dynamic between the colonizer and the colonized. So there's a part of the colonized who are envious who believe that the colonizer has all the special goods and they're keeping it away from them. so you have this complicated relationship of animosity towards the colonizer

but envy as well an idea that um they're they are superior. Yeah. Um and so we kind of um you know I I still sense that from my contact with people in Iraq that um and my dad's contacts from people in

Iraq after we came to the UK is that there was still a sense that the really good things are held by the West. Yeah. And that in order to you know that we have to try and get to the standards

of the west and this kind of dynamic between that and also animosity towards these people who have done so much damage in your country. so there is that kind of dynamic which is an it's a

kind of internalization of that inferiority that the colonizer has has put onto you. But the point is about all of this is it's not scientific. you it's a it's a system of myths and what you're trying to do is trying to help people understand that just because it comes from the

west that's just a commercial thing. Yeah. It's got very little to do with science. It's that's

illusion of science is what in what I've been calling scientism in my book where we're we're worshiping it as if it's a faith just because it's said by people who call themselves scientists. We

think it's science, but actually it's upside down science. It's not real science. It's, you know, proper science. You come with a hypothesis like there is a condition that we call we're going to

proper science. You come with a hypothesis like there is a condition that we call we're going to call attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. It's located in the brain. We're going to call it neurodedevelopmental and it's genetic. Okay. Put forward that hypothesis. In science,

you put forward a hypothesis and assume it's incorrect. Yeah. You assume it's incorrect until you have evidence to show that it is correct. That you can back your hypothesis with empirical evidence. You don't expect your critics to be able to to show evidence that it isn't correct.

evidence. You don't expect your critics to be able to to show evidence that it isn't correct.

it's the other way round. All the critics need to do is to show that well you haven't proven your hypothesis yet. And that's what I what I show. I've been following the research. Nobody has found

hypothesis yet. And that's what I what I show. I've been following the research. Nobody has found a specific characteristic bit of the brain that's different or that's abnormal. Nobody has found the genetics. These are all missing. So this is what happens in upside down science. an upside down

genetics. These are all missing. So this is what happens in upside down science. an upside down science. You assume that what you've hypothesized is true and you tell your critics to come up with

science. You assume that what you've hypothesized is true and you tell your critics to come up with the evidence that it's not true. That's that's the wrong way around. So that's the problem. Yeah.

They're publicizing things that are not scientific under the illusion of science. And people need to know that it's a con. It's a big con trick. Mental health industrial complex. It is. That's what it is. Yeah. so um in your critique of the medical model but you don't just target ADHD or autism,

is. Yeah. so um in your critique of the medical model but you don't just target ADHD or autism, you also target some other more neurobiological looking disorders like schizophrenia,

bipolar disorder. So many many people might agree with you on your critiques of ADHD and autism.

bipolar disorder. So many many people might agree with you on your critiques of ADHD and autism.

There is this common conception that you know schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are more on the side of like brain diseases. so what do you say to that argument? Again,

we we have a hypothesis and there is certainly some a small minority at the moment that we know um could be experiencing a brain disease. So there is some rare conditions that we should be testing

for with people who present with um more psychotic presentations such as something called anti NMDA receptor autoimmune encephalitis so you can get some autoimmune encephalitis which is inflammation of the brain that often presents with a phenomena that's more closely tied to something

called thought disorder. the person finds it very hard to put thoughts together. Um, but

there are plenty of other things that come under that idea of a disease like schizophrenia and I've certainly come across quite a few in my own practice. So for example, it is assumed that if

you hear voices that are not there, what we call auditory hallucinations, um these are perceptual abnormalities. They are perceptual abnormalities. You're perceiving something that's not there. But

abnormalities. They are perceptual abnormalities. You're perceiving something that's not there. But

um for many people these are meaningful experiences. We have not been able to demonstrate that there is any chemical imbalance or other neurological abnormality. There is a

greater likelihood that the people who present like that have experienced um broadly adversity.

They've often had difficult things happen in their life. Mh. And one of the problems with going down the route that this is an illness just like any other physical illness, there are many problems

of going down that route is that you treat the experiences as symptoms. And when you treat experiences as symptoms, you take any meaning out of them beyond the idea that there's some sort of

this is some sort of abnormality that needs to be controlled or prevented. So it becomes meaningless torture. Mhm. but quite often the content of these hallucinations are very meaningful to the people

torture. Mhm. but quite often the content of these hallucinations are very meaningful to the people who are experiencing them and quite often they connect to things that have happened to them. And

um one of the things that then happens when you call these things symptoms is that you um and they carry on and that the if the best that you can do is suppress them or control them and convince

the person that that's what is the thing that's needed to do for them to be able to get on with their life, then you're going to expose them to very heavy medications, potentially for the rest

of their life. And um these types of medications are associated with all sorts of side effects that make it very difficult to function. Mhm. So there's lots of evidence out there that people who

manage to come off these medications or who manage to keep the medications at a very low level in the long term will function much better than those who stay on these medications. And I've also had that clinical experience. And there's there's also there is a case of Adam in your Yes. and he's

clinical experience. And there's there's also there is a case of Adam in your Yes. and he's

he's not unusual. I've seen a lot of people over the years who've had symptoms of psychosis and you do have to consider whether medication might be important even if it's for a period of time. Um

because people in psychotic states can be highly aroused, emotionally very intense and they can be in quite dangerous states of mind. So I'm not against medication, but the important thing is to understand that medication is not the treatment. It is an adjunct. It it is something that you're

using for a specific purpose. So there's no such thing as an antiscychotic. That's just

a marketing term. but you do have to be very careful if people are on these things called antiscychotics. I wouldn't stop them suddenly if they've been on them a long time. So I need

antiscychotics. I wouldn't stop them suddenly if they've been on them a long time. So I need to make that clear. But there's a lot of people who I've worked with who've had these psychotic symptoms. They are meaningful to them and they are meaningful full stop. And one of the things that

working with them is not about if you treat it not as a symptom but as a meaningful experience then the task of therapeutically helping someone is not about getting rid of these voices but actually changing your relationship to them so that they don't have the same power over you. so there's

also all sorts of different ways of working therapeutically with people in that situation.

Um and I think that's particularly important for adolescence because a lot of we've some of the research and and I was involved in some of those research um many years ago. Um, adolescents

often have periods of time where they experience things that they um label as um hearing voices.

It's it's a lot more common in adolescence, but most adolesccents and and throughout childhood, but most adolesccents tend to grow out of that. That tends to reduce as as they grow older. So,

we have to be careful not to um jump into the idea that they've got this long-term ill. One of the worst things that you can do to people growing up is to label them with something that that you're you're saying is lifelong. It's internal to them. It's it's an illness. It's an example

of a broken brain if you like or a dysfunction because one of the constants about throughout your life but particularly when you're growing up is that you will change. All sorts of things are going to change about you. Your body's going to change. Your interests are going to change.

Your friendship groups are going to change. Your approach to food is going to change. All sorts of things are going to change as you grow up. And one of the things we shouldn't be doing for any young person is fixing them with the idea that they've got a lifelong That's to me that's like a a a very

dangerous hypnotic suggestion. Mhm. You should always mind. Yeah. And I work with adolesence as well. I work in a high school and you know at that age you're so like in need of finding an

well. I work in a high school and you know at that age you're so like in need of finding an identity and you like embrace that whatever label it is it can be in positive it can be negative but you you hold on to it and I'm I'm also the head of well-being in the school that I'm teaching

and I'm always critical of the the curriculum that we're doing and you have this quote that I've heard you say in your other interviews on how resilience cannot be taught and I I find it very valuable and I it it makes me question my own the curriculum that I'm trying to you know employ

um but like it's it I also am skeptical about you know how where do you draw the line for example someone who is severely depressed comes to see you and you think they might be suicidal and there is

this transformative power of suffering and pain and that's how we learn to be resilient as you say we experience adversity we we learn that we can survive it but what if what do you do when you

feel like that person in front of you seems like they cannot maybe like come out of the other way but or maybe they might commit suicide like where do you do you ever prescribe anti-depressants in

those kind of maybe more suicidal cases like where do you draw the line in letting suffer allowing suffering well the evidence with um of course anti-depressants particularly in young people I mean again this is a marketing term there's no such thing as an anti-depressant is that they

are likely to increase the likelihood of acting on suicidal feelings So they, you know, in the studies compared to the placebo, you're twice as likely to experience suicidal impulses if you're um taking an anti-depressant. So that's one of the things that you should be very careful not

to do. Um I have ended up prescribing and that's usually because of um a kind of pressure from

to do. Um I have ended up prescribing and that's usually because of um a kind of pressure from the young person. in conjunction with the parent and they want to try it and I've explained in my

experience and I've been over three decades working in child and adolescent psychiatry.

I've worked in inpatient outpatient specialist services um diabetic liaison. I've even started one of the first ADHD clinics in the country back in the um mid 1990s where we took a predominantly

psychosocial approach. Um what I've said is that in my experience I have yet to come across one

psychosocial approach. Um what I've said is that in my experience I have yet to come across one person who has been and I've seen lots of people who've been prescribed anti-depressants because it's so widely prescribed young people from other clinicians or their family doctors. I've yet to

come across one young person who has taken an anti-depressant and it's led to a sustained recovery. I've seen plenty who've had this what I call enhanced placebo effect. They might have felt

recovery. I've seen plenty who've had this what I call enhanced placebo effect. They might have felt better for a few months and then afterwards they start to think um it used to work but it's not working quite the same now. Maybe I need a higher dose. Maybe I need a different anti-depressant.

Um, I I've even seen some strange presentations like I had a young person who who developed the idea that they were maybe somehow the pill was popping out of their mouth because it used to

be working but it isn't now. So why why is it not working any longer? So I have um that's one of my things that I would I would say to all young people and all families and if they want to try it then they try it. But I say it's really important that you consider this as a window of

opportunity because the things that are going to make the long-term difference is if you do feel a little bit better what are you going to do? What's what's what's going to be? So sometimes if you treat it as a window of opportunity, you can take advantage of this enhanced placebo effect.

as far as suicidal feelings concerned, of course that's a very um very worrying state of mind and um sometimes we do have to take action which might include suggesting an inpatient unit.

so for a period of time um that might be something that is is necessary. But one of the things that I've really learned in the course of being um a practicing psychiatrist is the most important

thing to do is to remember that you're seeing somebody at a moment in time. This is not a permanent state. Mhm. So the way I talk about the idea of depression, I talk about a state of mind.

permanent state. Mhm. So the way I talk about the idea of depression, I talk about a state of mind.

Depression is not an illness in the same way that you know having a broken bone or a diabetes or something that you can find an empirical anchor. It's a state of mind. States of mind are something that we slip into and slip out of again. And the theory for that state of mind is really powerful.

So if you believe that you're experiencing a symptom of an illness, it in effect disempowers you from the idea that you have any capacity for influencing that state of mind or that

that state of mind will um shift depending on things that are going on in your life. without

so you you become at risk of losing some of your agency, some of your capacity. And the other thing that I've found that's really important in clinical life is to keep alive the idea of hope. And it's becomes not that difficult to do that when you're as been as long working in the

hope. And it's becomes not that difficult to do that when you're as been as long working in the field that I have because I've seen so many people who've um ended up in a really difficult situation

in their life. Very disabled functionally. some people who've gone in and out of psychiatric um in you know psychiatric impatient treatment units because they were just unable to function

or have gone in and out of um physical hospital for for various reasons and you just have to maintain a patience and you have to let them know that at some point something will shift.

And you don't know how, you don't know why, but you've seen it happen again and again.

At some point, something in your mental state will start to make sense. Mhm. Something will,

and I've seen it in various ways. I've seen people who get up one morning and say, "I don't want to go on like this." I've seen it in people who've watched the program and it made them rethink.

I've seen it in people who've had an argument with their parent and somehow after the argument something has shifted. You don't know when it's going to come, how it's going to come. But what

I can tell people is be patient. It will come and it does. I've seen you know I've seen people make a complete recovery from one of the most disabling presentations that you can think of.

I've seen it again um and again. One of the things um I sometimes share with people. It's

this is something my wife believes and my wife has nothing to do with medicine, nothing to do with therapy, nothing to do she's, you know, she keeps me grounded and she says to me, "Look, everybody in their life is going to go through some point where they're in a crisis, where they're

um and it's better to get it over and done within your adolescence. It prepares you for the rest of your life. I like that. I think there's some truth in that. Yeah. So, so it's it's about not

um imagining. One of the problems when we start imagining that we have some special power, whether

um imagining. One of the problems when we start imagining that we have some special power, whether it's through medication, whether it's through some magical therapy, is that um if we start saying, "Yeah, this is the treatment that you need. this is what is going to or should help you recover

and you go through that and you don't recover is it embeds the idea that oh my god I'm even more seriously ill than I thought but it also embeds especially in doctors you know doctors we're sort

of trained with the idea that we can fix people it's it's a kind of a god complex Yeah, we end up being given. So if people are not getting better kind of as doctors, it can affect our if you like

being given. So if people are not getting better kind of as doctors, it can affect our if you like narcissistic sense of Yeah. um um ab ability to to be a good doctor. Yeah. The problem is you

then start making bigger and more aggressive interventions. This is when you start adding new medications, new diagnosis. This is how we create long-term patients. This is when we start

um talking about people being treatment resistant, having a chronic condition and so on. Um I'm so glad that you said it because the psychiatrists I think there is a issue with how many psychiatrist

of course you're a unique case and if I'd ever have a mental disorder I'd fly to England and find you because like there isn't many there aren't many psychiatrists that are critical of this whole enterprise and also I was talking with a psychiatrist friend of mine actually and he was

talking about how he's struggling with an academic paper that he needs to write and I jokingly said like just pop a concerta and you know get it over and done with. and he said no I'd never do that.

like he's he was very conservative about himself taking the drug, but he's so liberal when it comes to prescribing it to his patients because also he like they're also complaining that when they prescribe a drug to a patient they feel the patients feel like you know that the doctor's done

something. Yes. Other than you know just let the let the thing run its own course. , so some of the

something. Yes. Other than you know just let the let the thing run its own course. , so some of the psychiatrists are critical, but they're critical in a way that's like, you know, I don't like it either, but that's what what's expected of me and that's what I got to do. That's just the name of

the game. Um coming from that also like you're very critical of this how these diagnosis have

the game. Um coming from that also like you're very critical of this how these diagnosis have become woven into people's identities like being a punk or being a goth. but also there is this lo

logical contortion that you also mention in your book. it's also a lot of externalization going like I thought it was just me not concentrating or not being successful in this field but now I know it was my ADHD it wasn't me so you externalize your the things that you think you couldn't

succeed so it's not an extension of you now it's just your ADHD doing its work so at one point it's it's a part of the essential identity like oh I have ADHD It's it's part of my identity but

it functions as it functions as as me and not me at the same time. It's a Yeah. Yeah. Um so um do what do you how do we resolve this like or do we resolve it like do you think people who think they

have ADHD have this logical contradiction or could this be resolved in any way?

Um I mean you've you've highlighted I guess something that that I've also written about which is it has this contradiction. Mhm. As it's got woven as the mental health industrial complex

spread politically. It has got woven into the whole identity politics movement. Mhm.

spread politically. It has got woven into the whole identity politics movement. Mhm.

And so people have started identifying with their diagnosis. I guess you see that in particular with the whole neurodeiversity construct. Um but it goes alongside a belief instead of a belief that

there's something sort of broken inside you. There's a belief that there is some essential difference about you. Either way, you're imagining that um the difficulty negotiating our current

society is due to something in your brain that marks you out. That marks you out as in some way unfit for society as it is currently um organized. which then has a bit of the there's an expression

in English, you want your cake and eat it. So yeah, I don't know, you might have something similar in Turkish, but so um it it becomes then a way of saying look, I'm just like everybody

else. I just have this essential difference. However, because I have this essential difference,

else. I just have this essential difference. However, because I have this essential difference, you need to make various accommodations for me. Um, and again, it's not based on any science. So,

people think they imagine when they get a diagnosis that somebody has identified something that's essentially different um about them. I I quote in the book the case of um Matilda Booseley,

a um a journalist based in Australia, who talks about how Tik Tok helped her realize that she had ADHD because the algorithm kept sending her videos of people who had ADHD, which made her wonder. And

she talks about how it made her realize that it wasn't that she was lazy. The reason her apartment was always untidy wasn't because she was lazy. It was because she had didn't have enough dopamine in

her in her brain. So it makes you reinterpret all sorts of things about your life. And you should be very careful when you start to do that because my experience is when you start going down this route

where essentially we're talking about a commodity. We're not talking about a condition because there is no science behind this. This is a kind of a marketing thing. It's very expensive to get um ADHD and autism assessments. There's a lot of money being made by that whole industry.

Um, like most commodities, after a while it doesn't work as well. You might feel liberated to start with, but then after a while you'll start to question maybe it's not just ADHD, maybe it's also autism. And so I've seen people who've young people who've gone down that route and

also autism. And so I've seen people who've young people who've gone down that route and come to clinic and they've already accumulated by 16 17 year old they've accumulated autism, ADHD, anxiety, PTSD and now they're coming to clinic because they are worried that there's something

else going on. it doesn't quite and they're now worried that they have a bipolar disorder and that's why they still can't um settle in in some way. So that's one of the issues for me. The

other thing we just need to be clear with people about that these are not scientific constructs.

Neurodeiversity is not able as a concept to differentiate between a group of people who are neurodeivergent and a group of people who are neurotypical who are sort of oppressing the people

who are neurodeivergent in this um in this way of thinking. There is no way by definition we're all unique. By definition, everybody is neurodeiverse, which means it's a pointless concept. Yeah. So,

unique. By definition, everybody is neurodeiverse, which means it's a pointless concept. Yeah. So,

I just think we need to get rid of it. I don't see any way that we can reform this within within the whole autism debate. Of course, this has sparked um a a big clash between particularly parents who are dealing with kids who've got um significant learning difficulties, who have a lot of needs.

Yeah. Yeah. And then the autism advocates who say, "No, you shouldn't be viewing your kids as having a disorder, as having a problem. They're just they're just different and you you shouldn't be putting treatments in there. So you you're getting all of these divisions taking place

around because the concept doesn't make sense. We should just get rid of it. I don't think we can I don't think we can reform these. We should be clear that these are concepts that they are not scientific that they are cultural that they don't lead to liberation of people. They're just

leading to an expansion of the medicalization, an expansion of the people turning inwards to try and understand the social challenges that um we're all facing. makes social solidarity and the structural

changes that we need from our politicians, from our um economics more difficult to achieve. Yeah.

And um so I've become clearer in my mind looking at these trends in coming to the conclusion that the only way really ultimately is to make it clear that these are not meaningful concepts and we need

to stop using them. my final question will be on woman and psychiatry because I'm a feminist and I've been talking with some talking with an online therapy platform. they were interested in

a sponsorship in my YouTube channel and they casually mentioned that 90% of their customer base is women and I feel like this mental health industrial complexes as you mentioned also in your book the main clientele market is also women. what do you think why do you think this is the case?

Why do you think that women are the main market for the mental health industrial complex? So it

is interesting to look at the gender distribution of the psychiatric population of the of the population who come forward um and either look for or receive um formal psychiatric or mental health

help. And in children it's mainly boys and it's mainly boys brought that brought by their mothers.

help. And in children it's mainly boys and it's mainly boys brought that brought by their mothers.

Mhm. And as they grow up and girls Yep. And girls start to enter girls start to enter the picture in adolescence. And as you go through adolescence, , girls gradually become the predominant, group. And

adolescence. And as you go through adolescence, , girls gradually become the predominant, group. And

as once you get into adulthood, it becomes women. Wow. Um, and what we've seen in the expansion of ADHD and autism into adulthood, and this is another thing that is the result of what I call a

mutation of constructs, not any new discoveries, is that in order for those concepts to expand their market in adulthood, they had to find their way to women. And the concept of masking enabled

women to become their their biggest. Yeah. Their biggest growing. So the idea is you don't have to have the symptoms anymore. You don't have to display the behavior. you just have to feel that you have them because you're good at camouflaging. You're good at masking those symptoms. So you only

see them when you're out of the public eye. And this masking discourse is also sugarcoated with identity politics as well because women are always trying better to accommodate to societal pressures. That's what you're why you're doing it kind of thing. Exactly. Exactly. So we should be

pressures. That's what you're why you're doing it kind of thing. Exactly. Exactly. So we should be asking what is it in terms of the situation with women that means that they seem to be presenting

as the predominant group for um if you like experiencing mental distress. What

does that tell us? Surely that is a commentary on something that's going on within our society, within our culture. So instead of um turning that into likelihood that that you've got problems with

your brain, problems inside you, surely it's telling us something about the pressures that are put on women, the expectations to be a to be a competent mother, to have a good career.

Where do you get your social, you know, to have to look good to where do you get your social um value from? Surely it's a commentary on the nature of our culture and our society. So to me and I think

from? Surely it's a commentary on the nature of our culture and our society. So to me and I think I I wrote a little bit about the history of women in psychiatry. Yes. This is a longstanding trend.

So um unfortunately what is now the mental health industrial complex comes out of a long history of problematizing um women and their experience rather than seeing it within the context. to me

there is a real problem when we take out social context from how people understand their life.

Yeah. Because once you take out social context because we all have to live in a social context.

We all have to live we don't live in an isolated bubble just with ourselves. We all live in a world where we're interacting with the both the stories and the material reality of the world around us.

So when you t start taking social context out and saying it's something to do with something inside you, you're creating a fantasy world and you're dealing with a fantasy world. when you

deal with a fantasy world, you're never going to change the external world outside you. So, um, so I I think there's a lot for feminists to try and critique and deconstruct with the building blocks

for this mental health industrial complex. Thank you so much. Yes, there is a new alliance between patriarchy and mental health there. Definitely. and thank you so much for pointing it out. Um I'm

like I'm such an admirer of you like in your battle like this David versus Goliath battle between you and the mental health industrial complex. You have a soldier here in Istanbul. And

I'll also try to get this get your book published in Turkish because I I'm also an author myself.

I'm a children's books author. So I have some publishing contracts like I'm on a mission and this is this is such a valuable book and thank you so much. You have such a compassionate voice as well and you're not like this kind of very aggressively. you you're very common sensical.

You're so softspoken. I just I could listen to you for hours. Seriously. And thank you so much for your time and accepting my invitation. I will end the recording in a minute. Do you want do

you have any final words? Well, just thank you so much for um talking to me and inviting me. It's

been a very interesting conversation. Sounds to me that like you have quite a lot of deep understanding about the topic. Thank you. I will end the recording now but I will ask you to stay for five more minutes because the video needs some time to get uploaded. Okay. so I will end it now.