Recruitment Tough Times? Here's Your Comeback Guide 💼

coming up on this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast. We try not to talk

Recruiter podcast. We try not to talk about it, but every time I talk to like one of my recruiter friends or team members, it's like why can't it be 2021 again? Like why this is hard, you know,

again? Like why this is hard, you know, like 2023, 2024, even this year, the industry's changed a lot. And really the big thing I think the big needle mover was just not worrying about the outcome.

Not worrying about the outcome. Not

worrying about my billing so much. Of

course, it's going to be on your mind, but really focusing in on why am I doing this? I'm doing this for my family,

this? I'm doing this for my family, other people besides me, and I'm focusing in on my process.

>> Welcome to the Elite Recruiter podcast with your host, Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from

recruiting game. We cover it all from sales marketing mindset money leadership, and placements.

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to start your free trial. I'm so excited about this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast cuz how many times if you started at a big firm, you looked around at all the other young recruiters

and young salespeople and you knew most of them were not going to be around a year or two from now. I don't care how you started, but you look around and you're like, "They won't be there. They

won't be there. They won't be there."

Even though you hoped that they would.

I'm excited about this guest cuz this guest rocketed out of the gate. And

we've seen this story time and time again. crushed it out of the gate, but

again. crushed it out of the gate, but then hit a wall. And that's when the decision actually had to happen. Were

they going to be one of the people that left this industry for good or are they going to double down and make this the career that could pay for their dreams?

That's why I'm so excited about this episode is it's a bit of a comeback story, but this comeback story has turned into year after year of being a 500 to a million plus producer because

of the comeback. So Dan, welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, Ben, I really appreciate it. Yeah,

thanks for having me on the podcast.

Looking forward to it and I'm looking forward to the conversation.

>> All right, before we start doing a deep dive about all this fun stuff, like real quick 30 second self introduction.

>> Yeah, I just want to say I really like your podcast. I feel like this industry

your podcast. I feel like this industry is like an underground industry for so long and you've been doing this for I think 3 years now and I get a lot of benefit out of it. I get a lot of value hearing other recruiter stories. We all

have pretty much a similar past and I think it's really cool. So, you're doing a great job and you're crushing it as well. So, keep it up.

well. So, keep it up.

>> Thank you, man.

>> But, but for me, on a personal note, you know, I'm 39 years old. I've been

married to my beautiful wife for 12 years. I have two kids, crazy kids. My

years. I have two kids, crazy kids. My

son's 10. His birthday's actually tomorrow. My daughter's eight, and when

tomorrow. My daughter's eight, and when I'm not working, I'm with them. I enjoy

family time. I'm a man of faith. When

I'm coaching their sports teams, I'm very active myself. Yeah. I love to go to the beach. I only live about a mile and a half from the beach. Like to body surf. and I'm a big golf guy. So, if

surf. and I'm a big golf guy. So, if

you're in the central Jersey area, hit me up. We'll hit the links, play a quick

me up. We'll hit the links, play a quick 18 on me. And uh that's what I enjoy, you know, doing after work or when I'm not working. But when I am working, I am

not working. But when I am working, I am the managing director at Open Systems. I manage our Redbank New Jersey branch.

I've been here for 11 years. I have 15 plus years of staffing experience. My

branch focuses on IT and professional staff roles. We do direct hire and

staff roles. We do direct hire and contract placements. So, like I said,

contract placements. So, like I said, I've been here for 11 years. I started

the branch from scratch with two other people and I started my career as an IT recruiter on the temp side. I eventually

worked my way up got 3540 people on billing. I decided to give that all up

billing. I decided to give that all up and run full desk because I really wanted to do you know client acquisition get more in the sales side. So that was a hard pill to swallow because somebody else benefited from that. My team got

about 40 people billing overnight. So

that happened and it went to a full desk eventually landed into more of like a leadership role which is the role I am now. So I'm a you know player coach you

now. So I'm a you know player coach you know managing other people still running a full desk. Uh you know I love this industry. Like I said it's 15 years. I

industry. Like I said it's 15 years. I

never looked back and I always felt like this was the industry for me. Never

looked back. Never even thought about going into another industry.

>> Okay. Well let's start there. Like how

did you even like fall into this industry?

>> Yeah. So I graduated in 2008. So

obviously terrible economy. Uh, I always wanted to be entrepreneurial or get into sales. My family's entrepreneurial. My

sales. My family's entrepreneurial. My

dad was a commodity broker on the exchange. So, I figured I might even

exchange. So, I figured I might even dabble with that. That didn't work really work out. You know, he's had to sell his seat. Long story short, I got into sales. So, I got into insurance

into sales. So, I got into insurance sales. So, I got my insurance licenses.

sales. So, I got my insurance licenses.

I started hitting the phones. That was

really what propelled, you know, I guess the rest of my career. And it created a great foundation cuz my manager at the time, he was awesome. I looked up to him. He was cool, calm, and collective.

him. He was cool, calm, and collective.

And he always said, "Listen, just work your ass off and be yourself. Just be

yourself. People respect that." And that always resonated with me. So that

really, you know, helped me uh throughout my recruiting and sales career and where I'm at now. So I did that for about a year or so, but you know, I did pretty good actually in the insurance side, but like I said, it was

a tough economy at the time. Nobody

really wanted like extra insurance. They

didn't really want to hear from me. So

it was really tough. But I was making like, you know, 50, 100 calls a day. It

was brutal, but when you close a deal, it was worth it. So that really got my, you know, skin in the game there. So,

long story short, I got an opportunity to do pre-sales at a gym. I did that for a little while cuz I was really into fitness and I like selling. So, I sold gym memberships and then I eventually

became a general manager at a healthy eating restaurant. It all started from

eating restaurant. It all started from the gym. So, I was managing the

the gym. So, I was managing the restaurant. I did that for about a year

restaurant. I did that for about a year and a half. That was pretty cool. You

know, managed the front office, you know, hired and fired. I guess that was the start of my recruiting career potentially, just managing employees.

And I I really enjoyed that, but I knew that was again not the the career that I wanted to take for the long term, right?

So, a customer of ours, really cool guy, his name is Gus. I actually still keep in touch, you know, with his son. Gus

now owns his own staffing company. He

owned his own tech staffing company. You

know, the father. So he would come in, tell me stories, and I was like, I never even knew this existed. Like I didn't know what a recruiter was. I didn't even know anything about technology. So he

explained the business and I said, you know, this sounds pretty cool. You know,

I could take my sales career, take my people skills. I think it really suited

people skills. I think it really suited me. So I started applying to tech

me. So I started applying to tech recruiter jobs. I got lucky. A company

recruiter jobs. I got lucky. A company

called My Source, they hired me. They

were based in Tampa Bay, Florida. So

they flew me down with like 10 or 15 other recruiters all across the US. Most

of them are based like in the south and the east. and they put us in a two-eek

the east. and they put us in a two-eek boot camp in like Tampa, Florida. And it

was intimidating, but it was an awesome experience because they train you on all the fundamentals about tech, you know, the tech stacks, what goes with what, front end, backend, what server goes with what, you know, language. So, I

really learned all the tech. I really

had no idea what I was doing, but I learned the technology behind it. And

also, I really learned the business from them and the fundamentals. So it even got you to the point where I was in a room, my manager was in the room, it was on speaker phone, so all the recruiters

were hearing all the calls. So they put you on the spot. So I would have to call him. He would pretend to be a client or

him. He would pretend to be a client or a candidate. And honestly, we all did

a candidate. And honestly, we all did pretty terrible. But I I held my own

pretty terrible. But I I held my own because I did sales before. And that was really the start of the career. And like

I said, it's been 15 years since then.

And I never looked back. So that place that they flew you down that end of the two weeks when you flew back home was there an office for you to work out of?

>> Yes. I worked in our Benminster, New Jersey office. So it's about an hour

Jersey office. So it's about an hour from my house.

>> I was going to be like did they like just send you home and you're on your own with a phone book?

>> No. No, not at all. We had a branch of probably like five or six people that were already there. Like a branch manager, a recruiting manager, and about a team of four or five recruiters.

>> Okay. Gotcha. So,

>> and I was the only one out of New Jersey. So, I stuck out like a sore

Jersey. So, I stuck out like a sore thumb because everybody else is from Florida, Texas. They were from the south

Florida, Texas. They were from the south and I was like the Jersey guy. So they

all I think they were making fun of me saying I was from the Jersey Shore all that stuff. So I don't know wasn't

that stuff. So I don't know wasn't Jersey Shore time, wasn't that?

>> I I think it was I think it was like GTL whatever you call it. I don't even know.

But but that's that's the way it was. So

I always had a name for myself at the company and it was uh it was pretty cool. It was a great experience. Looking

cool. It was a great experience. Looking

back on it, I think more recruiters should get a foundation in training like that cuz that was pretty hardcore training every day for two weeks, even Saturday and Sunday. Maybe not Sunday, but it was six days a week.

>> So, in that training was just like the constant like the rebuttals and the the practicing like the live calls, >> rebuttals, handling objections was a big thing and that's what we struggle with the most recruiters and just learning

that is >> I remember my first call I called a SharePoint developer. I didn't even know

SharePoint developer. I didn't even know what SharePoint was, but I always knew, be yourself. Hey man, I'm new to this

be yourself. Hey man, I'm new to this job. It's like my first day. Yeah, we're

job. It's like my first day. Yeah, we're

looking for this job. This is what the client needs. Are you interested? Like

client needs. Are you interested? Like

like that's that's what I said. And he

laughed and he actually explained like what he did. And that's really how I learned how to recruit a lot. That's why

I was a good recruiter because I would just be honest with people and they would just tell me their experience.

Like everybody wants to hear themselves talk, right? So I just let them talk and

talk, right? So I just let them talk and that's how I learned like technology and the word you know languages and things like that. So

like that. So >> and then from there what made you decide to go to Robert Half?

>> So I was there for six or seven months and my source I I was doing very well and then I got approached by Robert Half. It was a bigger company. I thought

Half. It was a bigger company. I thought

I had more opportunity there. So I I went to Robert Half.

>> Let's talk about that because that's like what I think was like one of the make or break moments for you. So coming

into Robert Half, like you were guns blazing, knocking stuff out, making placements, looking like a rock star.

>> I don't know about a I don't know about a rock star, but I had a pretty fast start. So I placed I still remember

start. So I placed I still remember this. I placed a support person in like

this. I placed a support person in like my first two weeks. It was like I helped that support role. So if you're in it, you know what I'm talking about. And

then like two weeks later, I placed a Linux administrator in a contract role.

And if you're in technology, like Linux is really tough. like you have a lot of Microsoft environments but Linux is a really tough job. So I think I earned respect pretty quick because everybody was like like you just placed a Linux

admin in like a long-term contract and I'm like yeah. So like in my other company I placed somebody had to relocate across the country for like a Java developer role because we were doing like government contracting work

like that's tough. So I came from an environment where that was not the it was pretty easy for me to be honest. So

that happened there. made some nice placements, got my GM, my my gross profit spread up, you know, fairly quickly and then, like you said, I just hit a bump in the road. I was just stagnant. If anything, my numbers were

stagnant. If anything, my numbers were declining. I was getting close to like

declining. I was getting close to like my first year in the business and at Robert Half. And that's when, you know,

Robert Half. And that's when, you know, pretty much everything changed because that was around the same time that I got engaged and was looking at houses, things like that, and my intentions changed. Flip of a switch, I was a

changed. Flip of a switch, I was a different guy. Well, when you say

different guy. Well, when you say decline, like how many months in a row was it going downhill?

>> It just wasn't going up. Like, it was just staying the same. And I lo, you know, on the contract side, it was all contract placements. So, if you lose a

contract placements. So, if you lose a temp, you can lose two temps in a day and you got to replenish that. I just

wasn't replenishing it fast enough. So,

the numbers are just slightly declining.

And when you're at a company like that, publicly traded company, they draw a line in the sand at a certain point. And

if you're not hitting your numbers, chances are you're probably going to get let go. Like when I was in that seat,

let go. Like when I was in that seat, the average time, I would probably say 3 months for somebody to be in that seat.

3 months as a recruiter at a company like that. I was a little worried. Every

like that. I was a little worried. Every

time there was a one-on-one meeting with my manager, I was like, that's it. Like,

I think I'm done. I was even considering like going back to my other company or just, you know, going to another, you know, big company and then starting over. So,

over. So, >> So, you say your intentions changed. Was

it just the intentions or was it like a change in the work ethic too and the change that way that you attack your desk?

>> Yeah, it was everything. But it all starts with your mental mind state in my opinion. So it's like I've really had to

opinion. So it's like I've really had to rediscover like my why, right? Like

that's like why you in this industry?

Like why are you going to take on this pain? It's a tough industry. Sales is

pain? It's a tough industry. Sales is

just tough. But I already developed that muscle before doing like insurance sales and I was in the business already. I

know I was pretty good at it. I just had to like have a different mindset and think about things a little bit differently and then just being really intentional like with my time. So time

blocking was a huge thing for me and then just being like the first person in last one out. So just attacking the day.

So being on more on offense as opposed to, you know, playing defense and just looking at emails, you know, things like that. So you'd be surprised how much you

that. So you'd be surprised how much you can get done when you're writing things down. You actually have a plan for the

down. You actually have a plan for the day and then you document what you did that day. And if you don't do that,

that day. And if you don't do that, there's no record. So you don't know exactly what you're doing. Like yes, you could update the database. You know how many submitts you have. You're trying to hit KPIs and different metrics for the company, but you have to have your own

daily plan literally written down and like a check off list. That really

worked well for me. So if I was going to work five job orders that day, I would write those job orders in priority order. Made sure I had two absolute

order. Made sure I had two absolute all-star candidates per job order. And

if I didn't have two all-star candidates per job order, I knew I had a lot more work to do. So at that time we worked 8 to 6 at Robert Half. I lived an hour away. So I left the house at 7:00, got

away. So I left the house at 7:00, got home at 7 and there are some nights where I worked 7:30, 8:00 because on the contract side, we had a lot of fastmoving contract work. If I could have a Monday start and it was maybe

Thursday, Friday night. Well, you bet your ass I was going to find somebody and not leave that office until I found somebody because I can get a Monday start. So I started thinking differently

start. So I started thinking differently like that. So as opposed to just leaving

like that. So as opposed to just leaving at 6:00, okay, I'll take care of that tomorrow. I said, "No, I'm going to stay

tomorrow. I said, "No, I'm going to stay here. I'm going to find somebody and I'm

here. I'm going to find somebody and I'm not leaving until I do." So, like just things like that really really changed and I just focused in my on my process, what I had to do for the day. And really

the big thing I think the big needle mover was just not worrying about the outcome. Not worrying about the outcome.

outcome. Not worrying about the outcome.

Not worrying about my billing so much.

Of course, it's going to be on your mind, but really focusing in on why am I doing this? I'm doing this for my

doing this? I'm doing this for my family, other people besides me. And I'm

focusing in on my process similar to like I always compare I always make analogies for like sports because I'm a big golf guy. I played ice hockey growing up. I travel hockey very

growing up. I travel hockey very competitively. So I always, you know,

competitively. So I always, you know, have analogies for sports and I always say, you know, for for our industry, it's like it's like a golfer, right? You

don't worry about the outcome because I don't know if you golf Ben, but like I'm a big golfer obviously and you know if you're lighting it up on the front nine and you're shooting like a record number, the first thing you think about is like, "Oh, I'm going to shoot like my

my best score today. This is going to be amazing day. Can't wait to tell

amazing day. Can't wait to tell everybody." And then you blow up on the

everybody." And then you blow up on the back nine, you're like like I worried about the outcome. All I was thinking about was the score. I forgot

to, you know, worry about my posture, my grip, things like that. So when you look at like golfers like Scotty Shuffler, number one golfer in the world, that's all he focuses on is the fundamentals, his grip, his posture, his alignment. He

has a pre-shot routine. And he's

strictly focusing on the process. He's

not worrying about the outcome or where the ball's going to go. He's worrying

about what he can control before the shot. That's a pre-shot routine. And

shot. That's a pre-shot routine. And

then I applied the same thing when I was, you know, on the recruiting desk. I

have a process. I'm going to follow through it no matter what.

>> If you want a good laugh, Scott Love, one of my buddies, has invited me to go golfing. And I'm like, I do not want you

golfing. And I'm like, I do not want you to spend 9 hours on the course with >> 9 hours on the golf course >> because I've hit like with like a billion balls 15,000 different

directions.

>> Well, listen, it's not about the skill of the golfer, but the pace of play is definitely an issue nowadays. So, just

words of advice, know when to pick up the ball.

>> Well, double par plus one. Once you go over the double par plus one, pick up the ball. If it's a par four and you're

the ball. If it's a par four and you're on nine already, you got to pick up.

>> So, like going back to this, going back to this shift, going back to this like this change that you did, like was it like an overnight or was it just like, hey, you know what? I wasn't planning my day. I wasn't documenting my day. I

day. I wasn't documenting my day. I

wasn't the first person in. I wasn't the last person out. Did all this like shift all at once or was just like, hey, I need to change this. Like, where did you get some of these ideas for some of these changes?

>> Well, I think to me it kind of happened overnight. I don't know why. It just

overnight. I don't know why. It just

kind of felt like that. So I was just like, hey, like I got to sharpen some things up. And I wasn't like I was

things up. And I wasn't like I was always a good worker. Like I've always somewhat maintained, but my numbers definitely dipped. In an environment

definitely dipped. In an environment like that, you just can't you can't dip.

You got to keep progressing and moving forward. So again, I just worked on all

forward. So again, I just worked on all aspects of my life. So that was fitness, getting back in shape, lost a quick 10 pounds before I got married. You know, I had, you know, a stronger passion and

why. And I think I said in that LinkedIn

why. And I think I said in that LinkedIn post that you noticed, I worked with a chip on my shoulder. Like I wanted to beat everybody else. The person sitting next to me, I'm not going to mention names, she was awesome. She was a rock

star. She was very well respected in the

star. She was very well respected in the company. And we got along great, but I

company. And we got along great, but I wanted to beat her. I wanted to beat everybody. I wanted to be like the

everybody. I wanted to be like the people that I saw in the office that were top billers that were there for 10, 15 years. They walked around, you know,

15 years. They walked around, you know, they had the best, you know, candidate prep and I saw what they did. I listened

to what they said in the phone and I just soaked it all in and I just attacked. I just started attacking. Like

attacked. I just started attacking. Like

I said, we had a system called MJ at the time. You know, now they use Salesforce,

time. You know, now they use Salesforce, but applicants would apply, you know, to jobs like overnight and the day before.

So, whoever came in the office first had access to those candidates. It was first come, first serve. So, you bet your ass.

I got into the office at 7:45. So, I got into the office when it was still dark and I was always the first or second person in the office and I made sure of that. And that really got my day

that. And that really got my day kickarted. And then I just did

kickarted. And then I just did everything I had to do to make sure I got the results. And again, just going over my checklist and just attacking the day and not wasting any time. Time

blocking really helps with that time blocking.

>> Right. And we'll kind of circle back to some of that stuff a little later on, but growing in your career there, you said something about having to give up all your contractors.

>> Yeah, it sounds crazy. And I was not really happy about that at the time. But

in order to move forward, well, you got to take one step back to move two steps forward, right? It was more probably

forward, right? It was more probably more 10 steps back. But at the same time, this is what I wanted to do. I

knew I hit my ceiling. I knew I had to get on the client side because I knew to make the most money in this business most of the time, 90% of the time, maybe even more. You have to have clients.

even more. You have to have clients.

Have to have clients. Like if you're a great salesperson and you have the client list, you're irreplaceable. So

nobody can replace you. You know, you're you're the king of the castle when you have, you know, when you're really good at sales and you know how to, you know, acquire new clients and establish relationships. So I knew I had to get to

relationships. So I knew I had to get to that side and I wasn't going to get it in that seat that I was in. And I was there for about three and a half years.

I was doing well at the time. I thought

I was making pretty good money, but it opened my eyes when I started doing full desk and doing sales. and I really enjoyed that.

>> So, I think that's one of the mistakes a lot of recruiters make is the like you talking about the client acquisition is the key to the business. It's the key to being a successful recruiter. But I like

I don't know I've been able to pin it if it's like the training or the environment or just like the way that like we've always structured in many companies in the US sales is like this

graduation of your career. But because

of that, what I've seen is like the sales part for many people has been the hardest.

>> Yeah. Have you seen that with like the people that you've worked with and the people that you've hired and like how do we go about shifting that dynamic?

>> Well, I think there's a big difference.

I think some people gravitate more towards the sales side and some gravitate more towards the recruiting side. And there's nothing wrong with

side. And there's nothing wrong with that. You can make really good money as

that. You can make really good money as just a recruiter assuming that you have a really good salesperson above you. If

you don't have a good salesperson, you could be the best recruiter in the world, but there's no job orders to work. You're not going to make a lot of

work. You're not going to make a lot of money. So, if you have a really good

money. So, if you have a really good salesperson, you have a really good team, then you can make really good money as a recruiter. But I think people really have a preference and as I got through the years in my career, I really

like the client side, but my foundation is a recruiter. So I always thought I'm a better recruiter than I am a salesperson. But I developed that muscle

salesperson. But I developed that muscle over time and now my desk is probably 90% sales, 10% recruiting because that's just what I want to do. So I think it depends on the person and what their intentions are and what they're good at

and really where they want to be.

Because I know some people that they start off in this industry, they start as a recruiter, but in their head they just want to do sales. So they do that for like three to six months. They might

not even be a great recruiter, but they go like right into sales like you said, kind of like the US market and and they do awesome in sales and they weren't meant to be recruiter. So it really depends on what your interests are and

what you're good at.

>> Right about that. So you got this promotion, you like made this jump. Like

how did that go?

>> It actually was pretty good. I learned

the sales side because I took somebody off the floor at half. He was a really good sales guy and I was like, "What do you do? What do I say?" Like, "Tell me

you do? What do I say?" Like, "Tell me all about it." So, and he said kind of the same thing like listen be yourself, you know, establish relationships and always add value on every single call

and be like be different. Like be

different than everybody else. By by

being yourself, you're just being different anyway because everybody else pretty much sounds the same. So, that

that's what I did. And um I did I did pretty good actually. I made some you know some nice placements. I

double-ended some deals but I was only in that seat for about five or 6 months and then that's when I went to Open Systems. >> Why did you make that shift to Open Systems?

>> Cool story actually. So the branch manager at the time I'm not going to mention names but awesome guy still keep in touch with him today. He was a mentor of mine. He got approached by Open

of mine. He got approached by Open Systems for several years. They finally

got him. They wanted to open up a New Jersey branch and diversified their business. So they were really heavy into

business. So they were really heavy into the financial fintech world and they didn't really have a presence in New Jersey. It was a lot in New York and

Jersey. It was a lot in New York and they have other offices as well. So he

went to Open Systems and he took two people with him. He took me and somebody else. So I was a really good recruiter.

else. So I was a really good recruiter.

He took somebody else that was a really good salesperson. So that's how it all

good salesperson. So that's how it all started. We started the branch from

started. We started the branch from scratch in 2014 with three of us. It was

a typical startup office, no windows.

And it was honestly probably the best time I've had in the industry since I started from like 2000 the end of 2014 to like 2016 17 was so much fun. We were

making cold calls. We were closing deals. We took off like a rocket ship.

deals. We took off like a rocket ship.

So it was like awesome and we built this team up to 10 people in like a year.

>> So go back to this like this beginning though this most exciting part of your career this like startup environment.

Why was that so awesome at that point in time? And the reason why I want to ask

time? And the reason why I want to ask this is like, you know, a lot of people are starting up or a lot of people have been in the business for a while. How do

you recapture that feeling?

>> Well, I knew it was a unique opportunity and not everybody gets that opportunity.

So, I was extremely grateful and I said I said to myself, I'm not going to let this slip by. We have a chance to do something cool here. And we all said to each other, we all had a common goal, which is really important when you have a team, especially a small team in a

startup environment, is we're going to be the best branch in the company. We're

going to be the best branch in the company. and we're going to kick ass and

company. and we're going to kick ass and we're going to work our butts off. And

you know, at the time we had a really good salesperson. He was bringing in job

good salesperson. He was bringing in job orders. I was filling everything. I was

orders. I was filling everything. I was

filling. He would bring it in. I would

fill them. And then eventually, as time went on, again, I wanted to get more in the sales side, like I mentioned before, that's why I went to the perm division at half. And I slowly but surely as the

at half. And I slowly but surely as the years went on, I started getting the majority of clients. And my my desk really flipped from like an 8020. 80%

recruiting, 20% sales to about 80% sales, 20% recruiting. Then we started hiring interns and other recruiters, and they were working on my job orders. So,

I was managing interns. I was bringing in a lot of business. And I was doing a little bit of recruiting on my own, like trying to double in some deals. And

that's how I developed that muscle of doing sales and running a full desk. And

it was just really exciting times because it was something different. You

know, we didn't have a territory. And it

was just really fun. It was just really fun. like if you could pull something

fun. like if you could pull something out of that time period and drop it into your desk now or your office now, what what would you pull out of there?

>> I would say you have to like create an environment that's like fun. So like you have to either go to a company that has a good environment already and a lot of it comes down to like the leader and like your manager in my opinion. That's

a huge thing in my opinion and also the team around you. But if you don't have like the best environment or if you don't think you have the best environment, you have to kind of create that on your own. So again, it all comes back to like your mental your mental

state. Why you doing this job? And then

state. Why you doing this job? And then

coming up with a plan of attack and just attacking the day and and that's exactly what we did and that's what made it fun.

And then when you start doing that, when you have like discipline, as long as you're doing the right things and you have the right fundamentals in place, obviously you start to see a progression. So when you start seeing

progression. So when you start seeing the progress, it just put more fuel to the fire. Like you just want to keep

the fire. Like you just want to keep doing it. Like I want more clients. I I

doing it. Like I want more clients. I I

want more placements. I want to earn the respect of my, you know, of my team members, things like that. And that's

how it happens. If you don't see that progress, if you're not hitting that progress, it's really tough. It's a

tough industry. So, you have to be good at what you do. And like a lot of the times, it's it's knowing like your weaknesses, knowing like your holes in your game. And in order to, I guess,

your game. And in order to, I guess, fill in those holes, you have to get help or really work on that. And I think a lot of recruiters don't work on their professional development. So, I always

professional development. So, I always knew like I got to work on this every day. I think some recruiters take it for

day. I think some recruiters take it for granted, but I really worked on like my sales skills. I looked at videos. I

sales skills. I looked at videos. I

practiced, you know, calling people on the phone. I would even record myself as

the phone. I would even record myself as I was on the phone with clients and candidates to make sure I sounded right, to make sure I had the right tonality.

And I really learned from that just recording my own video, recording my own calls. So, it's like little things like

calls. So, it's like little things like that. If you're not doing that stuff on

that. If you're not doing that stuff on your own, a company can only take you so far. A leader can only take you so far,

far. A leader can only take you so far, and the team can only take you so far.

You have to create that environment in yourself and you have to be extremely passionate at what you do and you have to, like I said, keep it fun. If you're

not great on the phone, well, you better get the right coaching or mentorship to be better on the phone. If you suck on email, hire a content coach. Like, have

them to write some scripts for you. You

know, use that. So, it's little things like that. Like, just know your holes,

like that. Like, just know your holes, know your weaknesses, and fill in the gaps.

So you progressed from 80% recruiting, 20% sales to 28% recruiting, 80% sales, but also working with a team of recruiters. Like how did you start

recruiters. Like how did you start managing a team and train a team and build an environment for our team while still also selling?

>> Yeah. So we started getting interns.

They started reporting into me. So I

gave them tasks to do every day. Then in

2019, that branch manager that started the branch, they parted ways. him and

open systems parted ways, you know, good terms and they promoted me into that position. So I was officially the branch

position. So I was officially the branch manager in 2019 and I've been in the same seat since. So that's when I acquired a team of like eight people at the time, like eight recruiters, and there's only really one other

salesperson that was on the team. Me and

this other individual were doing most of the sales and then we had five or six recruiters underneath us and one or two of them are more like interns. So

really, it's pretty simple. You know,

you lead by example, right? So, if

you're the leader, I took it upon myself. I said, "Well, I was doing a

myself. I said, "Well, I was doing a good job, but I'm like, I have to be the best. I have to be the best in the

best. I have to be the best in the office and I have to work the hardest."

It's not the opposite. Like, once you get that that promotion, that's when like the real hard stuff, you know, starts, right? Like, you can't just like

starts, right? Like, you can't just like coast and like tell everybody what to do. Like, no, you got to be the one

do. Like, no, you got to be the one showing up every day because if you're making the most calls in the office, people see that and they just naturally want to make more calls, right? So, I

always said lead by example. I was

getting sales. I was recruiting. So why

are you not doing that? You know, and if you're not doing that, like what is your why? Like why are you even here? You

why? Like why are you even here? You

know what I mean? So do you want to make money? Are you money motivated? And

money? Are you money motivated? And

chances are people that are not like really in the industry or not allin, they phase out. They phase out. So the

key is to just hire like really good people that have, you know, a strong passion, you know, for what they do. And

I always like to lead by example and always have a common goal in mind as a team. We want to hit this number this

team. We want to hit this number this month. we're all going to work towards

month. we're all going to work towards that goal. So, I think that made a big

that goal. So, I think that made a big difference. It's like setting long-term

difference. It's like setting long-term goals, leading by example, and then just setting them a schedule of the day, like what are your daily targets because you have to build it brick by brick, brick

by brick. You know, Rome's not built

by brick. You know, Rome's not built overnight, right? So, you have to do the

overnight, right? So, you have to do the little things every day and hold yourself accountable. In order to do

yourself accountable. In order to do that, you have to set your own daily goals and it's just going to eventually kind of, you know, keep stacking up. So

that's exactly you know pretty much was the game plan and it worked out well and then co hit so and then you know a lot of people left the industry after that

co the >> yeah co hit shortly after that and then you know a lot of the junior people just didn't make it you know we had a you know a lot of people were laying off things like that and that was a really

tough time for a lot of people but you know you keep being consistent and keep doing what you're doing and eventually you come out of it and it was the best market after that.

>> It was like the golden era of recruiting that I feel like we might never see again.

>> It was awesome.

>> It was awesome. I think every, you know, average to great recruiter still dreams about like 2021, 2022. We try not to talk about it, but every time I talk to like one of my recruiter friends or team

members, it's like, why can't it be 2021 again? Like why? This is hard. You know,

again? Like why? This is hard. You know,

like 2023, 2024, even this year, the industry's changed a lot. you you talk about a lot in your podcast like the technology, the competition. I was in the tech market at the time and you know

a lot of things a lot of things change but you know relationships don't. So as

long as you uh have the proper relationships in place and keep doing things consistently things usually come out in the end.

>> I'm going to ask you about relationships in a second because that just like leads into where I wanted to go. But if I look at or if a recruiter or anybody looks at your LinkedIn profile on the top it says

no BS recruiter. What is that and why?

>> I love it. I love that title. I know

some recruiters have that title. I get

it. But if that if they're really a no BS recruiter that's amazing. It's really

just you know being being yourself and just being honest in every transaction and just know your worth. Know your

value. Like I know I'm good at what I do. I've been doing this for 15 years

do. I've been doing this for 15 years and when I'm dealing with like a CTO or a CIO or a CRO, they're really good at their job and I'm really good at my job.

So, I'm going to offer my opinion when I see something that maybe is not right or maybe they're paying undermarket rate.

So, I'll give you a quick example. So, I

knew this CIO for several years. I

placed people with her before at different companies. She went to a new

different companies. She went to a new company. It was a healthcare company and

company. It was a healthcare company and she gave me a director of cyber security role. And this was probably like last

role. And this was probably like last year sometime. I knew the market. I knew

year sometime. I knew the market. I knew

the the salary was a little bit below market rate. So I submitted a candidate

market rate. So I submitted a candidate and she passed on the candidate and she passed on him because of the industry experience. So I said, "Listen," I said,

experience. So I said, "Listen," I said, "I understand he doesn't have the industry experience that you're looking for, but I think he's a really good match for your team and I think it'd add a lot of value and it's not a waste of

your time to spend 45 minutes with this individual." So she trusted me, she

individual." So she trusted me, she listened, she interviewed the person, he went through the interview process, had a panel interview with the shareholders, things like that. He ended up getting the job. He accepted the offer. It was

the job. He accepted the offer. It was

like a 200k, you know, position, 40k fee, and he's still there now. And it

worked out in the end. But if I didn't speak up or have a backbone, then that job might even still be open. I don't

know. But it would have took several more months to find somebody. And then

they passed on like three other people that went to the final stage. So that

would probably been open for a couple more months. It was a tough role. It's a

more months. It was a tough role. It's a

director level role. So that's a quick, you know, quick example of just, you know, no BS, no fluff, offering your opinions and, you know, having a backbone.

>> So like kind of goes into like the next thing about the relationships like one of the things about recruiting is like you have to build rapport fast. How's

you utilize that that no BS approach to quickly building rapport so that way you can, you know, do what you need to do?

Well, the best relationships I have and I still work with people. When I first started, when I first came to Open Systems, I signed some new clients in like 2015. I still do business with

like 2015. I still do business with those executives because we do a really good job and we get the results. We add

value. So, they know if they're working with me, my whole thing is like three to five submitts. It should take me three

five submitts. It should take me three to five submitts to make a successful placement. It shouldn't take more than

placement. It shouldn't take more than that. And if it takes more than that, we

that. And if it takes more than that, we have to jump on the phone. We got to talk about something because something's wrong. We only submit candidates that we

wrong. We only submit candidates that we know are going to get the job or or we think they're going to get the job and it's just a culture fit at that point.

But I would say they know what to expect from me. I'm really consistent in our

from me. I'm really consistent in our delivery and I lean on my team for that.

I have a really good team. I have a really good support system around us at Open System. So, it's a great thing. And

Open System. So, it's a great thing. And

when you're adding value all the time and you have proven experience of making really good placements with like key executives and hiring managers, like they they don't forget that. So, they're

going to keep coming back to you because they know, hey, if I reach out to Dan for this job, I'm going to get good candidates and I'm going to make a placement with them and I'm not going to deal with all the headaches in between.

So, when I say no BS, like there's no fluff. Like, I'm not just sending you

fluff. Like, I'm not just sending you resumes cuz I think this person's pretty good on paper, could, you know, take a look at them. No, I'm submitting a person that he's cleared or he or she is cleared. Like, I think they're going to

cleared. Like, I think they're going to get the job. Otherwise, I wouldn't submit them. So I think just you know

submit them. So I think just you know knowing your value and having uh you know proven experience with those people makes all the difference and also just like keeping in touch you know I think like we get so caught up in you know

getting new clients and that's really important but you also have to take care of the people you did business with in the past. So like a quick example of

the past. So like a quick example of that is just like reaching out and touching base with people you know like just randomly. Hey, how you doing? How's

just randomly. Hey, how you doing? How's

the new job going? You know quick example I was working with a law firm.

We placed somebody there and I heard that the CIO who I know she got like knee surgery. So I just emailed her. I

knee surgery. So I just emailed her. I

was like, "So, how'd the knee surgery go? How you feeling?" She was like, "Oh,

go? How you feeling?" She was like, "Oh, I really appreciate you reaching out to me. Like everything's good, whatever."

me. Like everything's good, whatever."

Like two weeks later, I got like five job orders. She emails me directly. Five

job orders. She emails me directly. Five

job orders. I think we filled three of them. So, it's like little stuff like

them. So, it's like little stuff like that, like just just check in with people, keep in touch, you know, show you care and be yourself and be genuine.

So like >> it's not rocket science.

>> But but the the the not rocket science is the stuff that many recruiters just don't do.

>> Well, you have to care. It all starts with your why, your passion, the foundation that you built for your own desk. It all starts with that and just

desk. It all starts with that and just showing that you care because at the end of the day, you're dealing with people.

It's all about relationships. And like

you said before, you have to establish trust really fast in this business. And

the only way to do that is to care and be yourself and be different, right? So

by being yourself, you're being different already. and knowing your

different already. and knowing your worth and your value and what you bring to the table. Like you should think in your head like I'm the best recruiter ever. Like why wouldn't nobody listen to

ever. Like why wouldn't nobody listen to that? You know what I mean? So that's

that? You know what I mean? So that's

how I think and yeah I'm definitely not the best recruiter but I know I still have you know a long way to go but that's always stuck with me is just be yourself and care about other people and things will come around. So, we've

talked about the caring, we've talked about the self-belief, the thought process, but you've consistently been a 500k to a million plus biller year after

year after year. What does your BD system look like behind the scenes?

>> Yeah, great question. And that's just my side of the deal because, you know, we split deals. So, if it's a 20k fee, you

split deals. So, if it's a 20k fee, you get 10, I get 10. So, those numbers are just my side of the deal. And lately

it's been on the upper side. Obviously

on the BD side, you know, it changes. I

think what worked really well for me was NPCs, NPC campaigns because I have a really good recruiter foundation and a really good team of recruiters. So we're

always finding really good candidates and I said I always reverse engineer the process. Like I'm going to find a

process. Like I'm going to find a candidate before I get the job order and I would just send the best candidates out and I know they wanted to see them and that always generated interest.

Lately, NPCs still work, but you have to do things a little bit different. So,

I'm always with the multi- channelannel approach, 100%. Social media has to be

approach, 100%. Social media has to be going at all times. I told myself about a year and a half ago, I'm going to post every day. It's usually three or four

every day. It's usually three or four times a week, but I'm going to post every day and just see what happens about my ICP, the problems that they face, things like that, and talk about, you know, my success stories. There's

job postings, things like that. So

social media is an aspect of business development that you know I think you always talk about which I think is extremely important and we have a long way to go most people. So that's a big thing too. And then also having like the

thing too. And then also having like the proper systems in place. Like I have automation going. I have manual touches

automation going. I have manual touches going. I like the multi- channelannel

going. I like the multi- channelannel approach. It all starts on email for me.

approach. It all starts on email for me.

You know, I send an email. I connect

with them on LinkedIn. They get my email. I can see if they opened it or

email. I can see if they opened it or not because I use a tool to see if they open up the email. So if they opened it, guess what? I'm connect with them on

guess what? I'm connect with them on LinkedIn. They accept my connection.

LinkedIn. They accept my connection.

Hey, you just open up my email. Just

want to match a face to the name. Let me

know if you could talk. You know, like it's that simple. And then a big thing for me that's been a big shift and I I always haven't done this until about a year ago is voice notes. Voice notes on

LinkedIn using my cell phone. It's

better than leaving a voicemail or calling in my opinion. It's more

effective and sending video, personalized video. Like nobody really

personalized video. Like nobody really does that. Like I get hit up by sales

does that. Like I get hit up by sales people all the time. Protect tools,

things like that. Nobody sends me video or voice notes on LinkedIn. It's always

cold email. And cold email still works.

It's always been a proper channel for me. But you have to have that multi-

me. But you have to have that multi- channelannel approach of, you know, email, LinkedIn, social media, cold calling if you're really good at cold calling, whatever you got to do to get

somebody's attention. And nowadays, it

somebody's attention. And nowadays, it takes like used to be three to five touches. Now it's probably eight to 15

touches. Now it's probably eight to 15 touches at this point.

>> Cur curiosity like what's your tool stack look like? What kind of tools are you at least using at this moment?

>> Everybody wants to know that, right?

>> Oh yeah, >> that's the big question nowadays. And

then listen, I've been through the whole thing. I use every lot of tools. I love

thing. I use every lot of tools. I love

technology. I love the tech tools and I dabble. I dabble. I used Apollo. I used

dabble. I dabble. I used Apollo. I used

Clay before. I'm actually pretty good friends with Randy Stats. I know he's been a big big guest on your show. He's

an all-star. He's a movie star right now on LinkedIn.

>> He lives 15 minutes from it.

>> So, >> I got him sharing. For those listening, the real quick for those listening, he's going to be sharing at the finish the year strong summit 2025 in October. So,

make sure you get registered for that.

>> Awesome. Shout out. He's an awesome guy.

It's actually funny, too. I think I mentioned this to you when we were talking earlier. Mike Melo has been a

talking earlier. Mike Melo has been a guest of yours, and he's blowing up right now with his new companies, and he lives 5 minutes from me. And I wouldn't have never known he existed if it wasn't

for your podcast. I'll tell you a quick story. So, I was in Best Buy with my

story. So, I was in Best Buy with my kids trying to buy, you know, Switch 2, which you can't find anywhere. I end up getting it, by the way, cuz I talked to the sales manager. So, little inside connection there. But I saw him in Best

connection there. But I saw him in Best Buy. I saw him leaving. I said, "I think

Buy. I saw him leaving. I said, "I think I know that guy. Like, I think I saw him on LinkedIn." So, I I hit him up on

on LinkedIn." So, I I hit him up on LinkedIn like a day later. I was like, "Were you just in Best Buy in Eden Town?" And he goes, "Guilty as charge, I

Town?" And he goes, "Guilty as charge, I was." I was like, "Hey man, like I live

was." I was like, "Hey man, like I live like five minutes from you. We do the same thing. Like, let's meet up." So, we

same thing. Like, let's meet up." So, we had like two or three lunches since then and you know, it's pretty cool, right?

So, that's what I was saying before.

Your podcast and podcasts like yours goes a long way. Like I literally, you know, developed relationships with Randy and Mike who are really good guests of yours and they live within 20 minutes from me in New Jersey.

>> That's so awesome.

>> And we pick each other's brains on on everything, right? He's really good at

everything, right? He's really good at the video content, social media. And

then I'm really good with email content.

He took some of my content before on email. I took some of his video ideas.

email. I took some of his video ideas.

We're implementing that now. And then,

you know, just to go back to your original question, I know I talk a lot.

Randy talked about source. So I said, "Dude, I said, I'm going to your office and and show me everything about Source.

I want to see how you use it. I I want to see it live. So that's exactly what I did. I was like, this this tool is

did. I was like, this this tool is awesome. I love it. You know, so I got

awesome. I love it. You know, so I got Source Well, like the next day I signed up my whole team on Sourcewell. So we're

all using Sourcewell. That is like the best thing ever for email, for clients.

It integrates with Zoom info, integrates with our database, which is job diva.

Recruiters could use it. I use it for sales. And I create like a three or four

sales. And I create like a three or four email sequence. And then in the

email sequence. And then in the sequences are cold calls mixed in LinkedIn connections just to remind myself to have a general task reminder to give this person a call or to send a

LinkedIn you know connection and message them on LinkedIn. So that's been a game changer is source well. So I use that a lot like I said zoom info to get the

data ties into job our database. I use

sales navigator to pull lists a lot and I also use hey reach and I use dripify.

I went to Hey Reach for LinkedIn automation. So I have campaigns on

automation. So I have campaigns on LinkedIn connection campaigns and also campaigns to connect and they get an automated sequence for me once they connect and I use video for that as well.

>> Do you have video like tied into into hey reach?

>> Yes.

>> Nice. Okay.

>> So I have different videos for different people. So I have a video for CTO's, I

people. So I have a video for CTO's, I have videos for CRO, videos for law firms, and videos for whatever I'm targeting. how acquisition HR managers.

targeting. how acquisition HR managers.

>> So, >> it's a different video for each one, different campaign.

>> So, okay. So, we we talked about your BD system, we talked about the tools, but I want to go back to some of the the original things that I think is actually super important that you highlighted early on is planning and then documenting.

How do you plan your day? How do you time block your day? And then I also want to know like at the end of the day, like how do you document everything so you know where you're at?

Well, back in the day, I was big on Excel. I

did everything on Excel. Like when I when I was doing sales, I would literally have the company, the name notes, and I would just follow up on Excel all the time. For me, as for my

daily plan, I just write everything down. I have a notebook. It has my top

down. I have a notebook. It has my top five priority tasks for that day, what I need to get done for that day, and I just write down what are my my daily

metrics. So my metrics, I'll just tell

metrics. So my metrics, I'll just tell you, I like the number five. So I don't know why everything goes in fives for me. So it's five new clients per

me. So it's five new clients per industry that we're servicing. So five

new law firms I try to reach out to every day, five new technology companies and then five like for CRO's, chief growth officers on the tech sales side.

So I reach out to five55 and then I have at least five follow-ups on the manual side. So I'm either leaving a voicemail

side. So I'm either leaving a voicemail calling, saying a voice note or a LinkedIn video and that is on the manual side. So that's 20 things I have to do

side. So that's 20 things I have to do every day. And when I reach out to a

every day. And when I reach out to a company or I reach out to, you know, five companies, I'm reaching out to five to 10 people per company. So really at the end of the day, I'm reaching out to like 50 60 people a day for the most

part. That's like my system. That's like

part. That's like my system. That's like

a mustave. And I do that first thing in the morning. So I try to get the hardest

the morning. So I try to get the hardest stuff done first. And that's what I do first thing in the morning is BD for two hours. Okay.

hours. Okay.

>> I put my head down, put my headphones in if I have to. Nobody bother me. I'm

doing BD 8:30 to 10:30.

>> Awesome. Well, okay. So, with all the systems and all that stuff, what do you think is like the most valuable habit for you to consistently be a top biller year after year?

>> I would say again to go back to your why, your passion, and being different.

Being different and not being afraid to try new things. be yourself and most importantly is just be consistent. So

what you're writing down for the day, like your to-do list, whether it's 10 new companies a day or working five job orders per day, make sure you check that off before you leave your desk for that

day or can't leave the desk until you check off those those boxes, your to-do list.

>> And I'm going to flip this.

>> Accountability would be the huge thing.

>> Yeah. If I could sum everything up, it would be be accountable. Accountability.

>> Are you accountable to yourself? Are you

accountable to like other people? or do

you have like an accountability group?

Like what is it?

>> I think like networking with people that I mentioned, you know, is a big thing too. Like if they're doing something, I

too. Like if they're doing something, I should be doing it as well. So always,

like I said before, it's just knowing your weaknesses, knowing your holes, trying to fill in that gap, you know, be a student of the game, like keep learning, learning the new systems that are coming out, learning new techniques.

It's been uh, you know, a game changer in that way. And I just hold myself accountable like it's it's just discipline, you know what I mean? like

is it discipline? Like I always compare everything to like sports like I said and you know it's like working out right like you can work out for two straight months you lose 5 10 pounds you're like oh I made it but then you stop working

out and you get fat again. So it's like like you just have the discipline to do it like every day and just keep going.

You know what I mean? So it's like you have to like embrace I think I forgot who said this but it always resonated with me. It's like it's like just do it.

with me. It's like it's like just do it.

Like if you say you're going to get up at 5:30 in the morning work out do it.

Don't press snooze. just get up and do it. Like have discipline. You know, if

it. Like have discipline. You know, if you're going to reach out to like 10 companies a day, you just have to do it.

Like just just literally press action.

Like take action. Take massive action.

You know, attack the day. Attack the

day.

>> Perfect. So, we we've covered a lot.

Before we jump to the quickfire questions, is there any place that you want to go deeper on or go into that we didn't really talk about? No,

>> I think we covered a lot. You know, I'm looking forward to, you know, some additional questions, but nothing really. I think at the end of the day,

really. I think at the end of the day, it's just um keeping the job fun, keeping it interesting. You know, have fun in the mundane tasks of like following up with people and, you know, just kind of make it fun. Like, just

have a good attitude about it.

>> Okay? Otherwise, you'll die in this industry. They'll eat you alive.

industry. They'll eat you alive.

>> So true. So, quickfire questions, they don't need to be quick answers. I know I say that every time, but somebody did give me like a quick one second answer.

I was like, "No, no, like it's just a separation to actually >> I'll try to keep it as short as possible. I know it's

possible. I know it's >> all good. No, no, all good. So, you got a a new recruiter that's coming into your office just getting started day one and they're deciding like if this is

going to be the career for me. I mean,

because everybody's making that like so many of us just kind of fall into recruiting.

>> Mhm.

>> Vivian and ask you like for longevity to be successful, what would be the number one piece of advice that you'd give me?

Well, I know I mentioned a lot, but I would say know your why. Why you doing this job, that's the foundation of everything, right? You can't build a

everything, right? You can't build a house without a good foundation. So,

whatever you do on top of that, if you're if you don't have the strong enough like why and passion for what you do and you don't genuinely like want to make good relationships and like love the industry, like, okay, so if you're

like a plumber, right? You're the best plumber in the world. You don't go in like every day saying like, "Oh, I love plumbing. like I can't wait to go

plumbing. like I can't wait to go plumbing. I can't wait to, you know, do

plumbing. I can't wait to, you know, do plumbing. I I rather, you know, do

plumbing. I I rather, you know, do plumbing than play golf that day. No,

but you know, you approach every day like, I'm going to be the best plumber.

I'm going to do what I have to do. And

at the end of the day, I'm going to enjoy time with my family and do what I love, but I'm going to get this done because I take pride in my job and I'm going to be the best plumber in the world. So, the same thing applies to

world. So, the same thing applies to recruiting. Like, what's your passion?

recruiting. Like, what's your passion?

What's your why? And be a professional, you know, be the best out there. And

like I said before, I'm like on repeat, but it's like have discipline. Have

discipline. Go through your process.

Don't worry about the outcome. And you

know, similar to what I said before, have your pre-shot routine. You know, go through your process. Don't worry about the outcome. If you worry about the

the outcome. If you worry about the outcome, you're going to shank the ball.

You're not going to score where you want to score because you're going to be thinking about the outcome. You're not

going to be worrying about the little details in between. So, it's like again, long-winded answer. I know you told me

long-winded answer. I know you told me not to do that, but you know, that that's my advice. It's like know your why, have passion, make it fun, you know, take care of your daily goals. You

make sure you check that off. It's

really important. Be consistent, stay disciplined, and have a really good attitude about it >> and seek help when you need it, you know. So, if you're starting out, you're

know. So, if you're starting out, you're not going to be that good at the job.

You think you're going to be good. You

think you're going to have a good candidate. You send it to your account

candidate. You send it to your account manager. He or she rips it apart and

manager. He or she rips it apart and you're like, "Why?" Ask questions. Why

is this candidate not good? I thought he was like amazing. he or she was amazing.

No, he's she or she's missing this, this, and that. They're coming from a totally different industry, whatever.

Like, it's just you learn that stuff as you go as a recruiter. And it just takes time to develop. You know, it's a great industry. You can make a lot of money.

industry. You can make a lot of money.

You could do a lot of cool things, meet great people, but it all starts, you know, with the foundation and and why you're doing it and and your overall process every day.

>> Okay. What is a favorite book that's had a huge impact on your career?

So I read more books like early on like I always have like mentors like I said before like selling like Siran he's really cool Ryan Sirhan he was good that was a good book 10x you know Grant

Cardone really cool but now I listen to podcasts I listen to your podcast yeah I get you know words of advice from other recruiters so appreciate that Ben and then also you know having key followers

like I'm not I'm not big on social media anymore because I don't want to waste my time looking at social media I think way too many people look at their phones all Okay. And they're like wasting their

Okay. And they're like wasting their life away. So I try to like block out

life away. So I try to like block out all social media now. So when I'm on social media, I'm listening to podcasts as I work out, as I drive to work, you know, things like that. I try to keep my mind occupied. So instead of listening

mind occupied. So instead of listening to music most of the time when I'm working out, I'm listening to like a podcast. Like a big one for me that

podcast. Like a big one for me that really moved the needle for me was Andy Elliott. I don't know if you know Andy

Elliott. I don't know if you know Andy Elliott. He's a sales coach. He's

Elliott. He's a sales coach. He's

awesome. like if you need like to reset your brain like mental and physical, he's the guy to watch. And I pretty much watch his podcast daily. Some of them I

watch this every day, like the same one just to get my mind going for the day, like my sales mind, my business mind.

He's been a big impact for me and his coaching program.

>> So, back to tools real quick. Favorite

tech tool at the moment. What is it?

Like I said before, I would say uh Source Whale.

>> Awesome.

>> It's been been the one that I like the best. And I like some other ones too.

best. And I like some other ones too.

Like I used Apollo for a while. I like

that one. I used a couple other ones too, but I would say Source Well, Source Well for email and sequencing. And then

you need to have something on LinkedIn.

So you need to have Dripify or Hey Reach. Flip the coin. Doesn't matter

Reach. Flip the coin. Doesn't matter

which one. They're both good. So like I like them both. I just happen to use Hey Reach right now.

>> Awesome.

So you you mentioned at the very start of the podcast that you are a coach to your kids sports like you're active with family stuff. How do you balance

family stuff. How do you balance running a desk, being a a million-dollar biller or you know being a top biller, leading a team, coaching a team, running

an office where you're dealing with a P&L? Like how how do you balance

P&L? Like how how do you balance successfully those two things?

>> Yeah, it's a great question and I think that's you know the job is tough.

Sometimes it does require long hours, but I feel like when I'm home from work, like again, draw a line in the sand, I don't think about work. I literally shut off for like at least two or three hours

and hang out with my kids, go outside, have fun, it's family time, and just completely shut it off. When they go to sleep, you know, it's like 9:00 at night, 9:30, okay, I'll check some emails, maybe I'll respond to some

things, but I try to just shut off.

That's why it's really important for me is to get all the hard stuff done in the day in the morning. like BD, like I do that in the morning. Sometimes I

sprinkle it in after 4 o'clock as well.

That's how I structure my day. Every day

is a little bit different, but I know I have to, you know, the things that I have to get done, I try to get done before 12:00. So, like by 12:00 every

before 12:00. So, like by 12:00 every day, I want to have my day almost done.

And everything else is just account management, relationship building, calls. I schedule all my calls in the

calls. I schedule all my calls in the afternoon. I don't schedule in the

afternoon. I don't schedule in the morning because I know I have tasks to complete in the morning unless I have to obviously, right? But that's that's

obviously, right? But that's that's that's what I do. So, I really, you know, for the work life balance thing, you know, I I I draw a line in the sand and I I shut off work for 2 or 3 hours.

I don't care what happens. I'm with my family and I'm present in that moment. I

like to stay present. When I'm at work, I'm all about work. Sometimes my wife will call me in the middle of work. I'm

like, I got to go. Like, I can't talk on the phone right now. I'm dialed in. I'm

at work. But then when it's after work and I'm home, I'm daddy. I'm husband.

And you have to allocate that time. And

it's precious time in my opinion. So, I

value that. like looking back on this, you know, 15 year career in this wonderful world of recruiting, like what was one of the biggest challenges that you had to to work through?

>> I would say just being consistent, like showing up every day, having a positive attitude, and being consistent. I think

that's the biggest thing. I've always

had the passion. I've always had the why. I always had the foundation, like I

why. I always had the foundation, like I mentioned, to build the house. I just

being consistent in and doing the work every day. Like, don't take days off.

every day. Like, don't take days off.

Don't just coast.

>> It's like a struggle for a lot of people. So, thank you for sharing that.

people. So, thank you for sharing that.

>> Yeah. Attack the day, you know, attack the day, play offense. Like that. That's

really all I could say is like don't just like follow up on emails like block off time like time block. Okay, I'm

doing BD for two hours. Don't bother me.

People know in the morning like unless there's emergency obviously if somebody needs something of course, but like block off time. Have time to follow up on emails. Maybe between two and three

on emails. Maybe between two and three in the afternoon, follow up on emails or between five and six, you know, follow up on all emails. So, I like to do that in the middle of the day and the end of the day, I'm following up on emails.

>> Perfect. Well, I've seen you on LinkedIn. I've seen you like interacting

LinkedIn. I've seen you like interacting with uh other recruiters, and I know like many times you're you're sharing stuff not for recruiters, but of course, it's written so well that recruiters are

getting sucked up into your ecosystem and commenting and liking and that kind of stuff, which also helps helps the reach, too. But I've also been starting

reach, too. But I've also been starting to see some questions from recruiters like you know what are you doing? How

are you doing this? Like you know how are you a top biller? And I'm sure you get those questions in the office too.

So out of all those questions that you get like how do you do this? How do you do that? Is there a question that you

do that? Is there a question that you wish a recruiter would actually ask you but they never do?

>> Yeah, that's a good question. I would

say like break down your process. Like

show me what you do like during the day.

like take me into your world and like what exactly you do during the day and why you do it. You know what I mean?

Like like really dig in on the details, you know, like what are the emails that you're sending? Like what is your

you're sending? Like what is your content? Like what is your call to

content? Like what is your call to action when you're on a sales call?

Things like that. Like really getting into the details into the weed of things. Like I think I could like talk

things. Like I think I could like talk about things all day and like you know give words of advice to like recruiters, but it's like in one ear out the other.

You really have to just get into the details in my opinion. So, like it's hard to like sum it up into one question, but I would say listen, let's spend an hour and you tell me exactly

what to do. Like exactly what to do. Go

over your ICP if you're in sales. Like

what messaging are you doing? How many

emails? When do you follow up? You know,

what are you saying when you're leaving a voicemail? What are you saying when

a voicemail? What are you saying when you're, you know, recording a video?

Like, like what exactly are you doing all day? And then also the tools that

all day? And then also the tools that you use to do it. But you could all have all the tools in the world, but like if you don't if you're not using it the right way and you don't have the fundamentals in place, then it doesn't really matter. So it's like I'd rather

really matter. So it's like I'd rather somebody tell me like this is what my emails look like. Okay. And I'm going to try to copy that and do the same thing, right? So just like picking your brain

right? So just like picking your brain and the whole thing.

>> I love that. That's actually a good really good breakdown of that. Well,

Dan, this has been like such an awesome conversation. Like we've not only gone

conversation. Like we've not only gone into like how you had to build up after hitting that point where a lot of recruiters like actually leave the industry for good, but you literally have given us the breakdown of like how

you've been a consistent 500k to a million plus biller year after year.

Tool stack, sales stack, sales systems. You've laid it all out no BS style.

But before I let you go, is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners?

>> Yeah, listen. You know, it's a tough business, but if it wasn't tough, everybody would do it, right? So, don't

be lazy. You know, take advantage of the opportunity. It's a great business if

opportunity. It's a great business if you really ingrain yourself in all the details. Have fun with it. Be yourself.

details. Have fun with it. Be yourself.

You know, establish a great, you know, team or mentorship around you. And it

could be a very, you know, great career, honestly. Like, I have a lot of fun.

honestly. Like, I have a lot of fun.

There's some days where, listen, if 5:00 rolls around, I can't wait to get the hell out of the office because I had a brutal day. That's what any job that's

brutal day. That's what any job that's what any job worth doing, right? Like

everything's hard. A doctor, they have hard days, too. They're in the hospital for maybe 20 hours straight, right? Like

every job have its ups and downs, but you know, if you stay the course and keep going and keep moving forward and keep fine-tuning, you know, your professional development, whether it's

talking better, tonality, email writing, you know, looking into tools, things like that, like just be curious, like be a student of the game. That's really

what I could say. And that's what's worked well for me in my career. And

that's why I see progression in my career. And most importantly, it's a

career. And most importantly, it's a relationship based business. So, you

have to genuinely care, have a passion for other people, and like genuinely want to help. And like I said, you're not focusing on the outcome. You're not

focusing on just billing. You're

focusing on your mental state, your physical, and your process. As long as you keep doing that and you're doing all the fundamentals, right, you really can't lose. You really can't lose,

can't lose. You really can't lose, right? For the most part. I had never

right? For the most part. I had never really seen it happen before when somebody's really into the job.

>> I love that. Be a student of the game.

Focus on the process.

>> Always always be learning. Know your

holes, know your weaknesses, and improve. That's it.

improve. That's it.

>> Take action.

>> And go crush the rest of 2025. So Dan, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on. I'm glad we had this

coming on. I'm glad we had this conversation. I'm glad we connected on

conversation. I'm glad we connected on LinkedIn. I saw the post and was just

LinkedIn. I saw the post and was just like, you know what, that's a story that I know is going to help move the needle on a recruiter's desk out there. So once

again, thank you. And for everybody listening, be a student in the game this year. Focus on the process and make 2025

year. Focus on the process and make 2025 the year that works for you. See you

guys later.

>> Awesome, man. Thank you.

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