Same Interview, 8 Years Later

I've cut out snippets from our interviews almost a decade ago and we're going to listen to some of it together and then see how your positions uh have changed. So, wow.

changed. So, wow.

>> What, are, your, thoughts, now?

>> Oh,, that's, such, a, good, clip., It's, so strange encountering your past self because I both am and am not that person.

>> Why, is, building, invisible, which, is, now, a multi-billion dollar company your path to salvation? To save myself is not

to salvation? To save myself is not enough. The true king makes others king.

enough. The true king makes others king.

The bodhic safa vow is to save all sentient beings.

>> It's, not, obvious, at, all, why, yeah, making a ton of money is the ageful no mobile path.

>> Invisible, is, the, answer, to, world, peace.

I still kind of believe that I may be the only founder who doesn't believe that there is such a thing as progress.

>> This, has, been, such, a, great, masterass, for me.

>> I, feel, seen, by, you., Very, few, people, can see someone else's soul so clearly. And

I don't know what gift you have that makes that possible.

Almost a decade ago, Francis and I sat down and recorded six hours of conversations on philosophy entrepreneurship, God, and romance. At

the time, Francis was by all accounts a failure. But I saw this unquenchable

failure. But I saw this unquenchable borderline delusional fire in him, the same fire I recognized in myself, and we became fast friends. A decade later

Francis is one of the most successful entrepreneurs of his generation who's built one of the fastest growing AI unicorns. So, I've invited him back to

unicorns. So, I've invited him back to see how success has changed his perspectives.

The first part of this video is the conversation in 2025 and the second audio only part are the highlights from 2018. And what's so beautiful is if you

2018. And what's so beautiful is if you watch them together, you'll see how Francis's obsession with philosophy which made him seem like a complete

buffoon in 2018, was ultimately the cause of his success. You'll see how because of his continued study of the great books, Francis was able to come up

with ideas no one else saw, persevere through the most dire challenges, take his company to the most ambitious extremes, and ultimately enjoy and share

his newfound wealth in a dignified way.

My name is Jonathan B. I'm a founding member of Cosmos. We fund research incubate, and invest in AI startups and believe that philosophy is critical to building technology. If you want to join

building technology. If you want to join our ecosystem of philosopher builders then you can find roles we're hiring for, events we're hosting, and other ways to get involved on jonathanb.com/cosmos.

jonathanb.com/cosmos.

Without further ado, Francis Prazo.

The last time we had a conversation like this was almost decade ago, and I want to paint a picture for our audience. Uh

I had invited you to my sophomore Columbia dorm. Cold email outreach out

Columbia dorm. Cold email outreach out after some crazy stuff that that you wrote about online. We were doing this podcast setup where there was a drawer we used. There was no table. There was a

we used. There was no table. There was a drawer we put in right in the middle of us. So, it was deeply uncomfortable

us. So, it was deeply uncomfortable because there was no place for the legs to go.

>> And, we, had, these, tiny, tiny, mics, and, then we were hunched over trying to talk into it like this for 2 hours. And we enjoyed that so much that we did that three times. Uh when we were filming those

times. Uh when we were filming those sets of interviews, I had just failed a company. Come came back to to Columbia.

company. Come came back to to Columbia.

I was a sophomore.

>> You, had, just, failed, a, company,, Everest, and you were just starting Invisible.

>> Mhm.

>> And, now, a, decade, later,, you, know,, I started something with with Joe Londale.

That's going quite well.

>> Yes.

>> Invisible, is, going, extremely, well.

>> Yes.

>> And, we, uh, we, get, to, have, this conversation again as made men. How does

it feel?

>> Fate, is, fickle., You, can't, rely, on fortune. Uh the ancient Chinese book

fortune. Uh the ancient Chinese book The Eching, helped me realize that there are four possibilities. Failure can lead to more failure.

>> Failure, can, lead, to, success., Success, can lead to more success. And success can lead to failure. It just goes round and around and around and around. So, I try not to get too attached to fortune.

>> How's, that, How's, that, going, for, you?

>> Uh, it's, hard., The, emotions, track, your stock price. Yeah. That's the natural

stock price. Yeah. That's the natural thing. The unnatural thing is to detach

thing. The unnatural thing is to detach from it and also not let your ego get attached to even your own name. Charlie

Munger, show me the incentives, I'll show you the outcomes. Yeah, that's the rule. The exceptional person then breaks

rule. The exceptional person then breaks the rule >> and, is, somehow, beyond, incentives, or, has intrinsic motivation.

>> Right.

>> Intrinsic, motivation, is, the, rare, thing.

The mercenary thing is gold.

>> I, see., Uh, what, I've, done, is, I've, cut, out snippets from our interviews almost a decade ago and we're going to listen to some of it together and then see how your positions uh have changed.

>> So, let's, do, it.

>> Put, on, the, earpiece, I, gave, you.

>> Okay, >> this, is, the, first, one., Uh, the, audio, I'm going to play now is about why you left uh the life of contemplation to go build companies and go become a man of action.

Okay.

the natural thing for a liberal arts graduate to do is to try to go make history. Like you study history, then

history. Like you study history, then you try to go make it. It's like an education for conquerors. Um, and I think Alexander the Great's a good example. You have Socrates who taught

example. You have Socrates who taught Plato and Plato who taught Aristotle and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great.

Like, you have to do something with this freaking education. Like, it it should

freaking education. Like, it it should it should compel you to action. I

started to lose respect for my professors at Cornell, first of all. And

these professors were quite jaded. Um

and you realize how they become, you know, increasingly specialized to the point of, you know, studying useless things. The number of ships at the

things. The number of ships at the battle of Salamis, um, in Thusidities was 300 ships in the Athenian side or 400 ships in the Athenian side. I just

think what a waste of life, you know, is that really >> really, the, best, use, of, a, great, mind., Um

or or are you actually a coward because you're hiding from >> um, the, real, the, the, real, message, of Thusidities uh the real message of your broader discipline of history um and you

could have done something with it that actually mattered.

>> Amen.

>> Do, you, still, agree?

>> I, do., I, agree, with, myself., Uh, in, the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna distinguishes between Jana Yoga and Karma Yoga. Jana

yoga being the yoga of knowledge and karma yoga being the yoga of action.

>> And, uh, he, tells, Arjuna, it, is, better, to do your dharma your duty halfway well than to do somebody else's duty 100%

well. And then he turns to him and says

well. And then he turns to him and says and your dharma is to fight. Um and so the uh the ideal for the nightly class is to

be in the world and build and solve problems. Uh and in the Arththeran lineage to put might in service of right

and this is not uh to say not to study but it's to apply the study in the world as opposed to retreat from the world into the ivory tower. um and and just

live a life of contemplation. So it is not that we should not read. I read

constantly. I know you do as well. U

it's that our unique challenge is to be in the world applying it.

>> Is, there, something, to, be, said, of, uh contemplation for contemplation's sake?

>> Yes., But, that's, an, abstract, question.

The question is for you, Jonathan, be in the world right now at this age at this moment of history. Is your calling to retreat from the world or to be in the

world? And there are different times and

world? And there are different times and seasons in life. Solomon has this knowledge in Ecclesiastes, you know there's a time for war, a time for peace. Um there's a time to go to the

peace. Um there's a time to go to the mountain and retreat from the world.

There's a time to, you know, go into battle. So, you should you should read

battle. So, you should you should read your own seasons >> right?, and, also, your, own, nature., You, are

>> right?, and, also, your, own, nature., You, are a knight.

>> Yeah.

>> But, you, are, fine, with, other, people, being being scholars, right? In fact, you kind of require a lot of these scholars in order for you to have good books to read. Right. I just want to get get this

read. Right. I just want to get get this view straight.

>> That's, right.

>> It's, very, interesting, because, uh, we, seem to have approached the same fork in the road and went in exact opposite directions.

>> Okay.

>> Where, you, had, the, experience, of, going through the great books as well as a great education at Cornell. then you

chose a life of action. Whereas I had experienced a life of action building the company with lndale and I chose back to to go back to my scholarly life.

Maybe that's just a nature question.

>> It's, hard, to, say, that, your, life, right now is scholarly because you're working as hard as you're working and producing what I understand to be, you know, a media empire of some kind.

>> But, all, of, that, is, uh, collateral, damage.

I I kind of this is half a joke, but but I say any person that I teach through my series is just purely don't blame me.

It's collateral damage. I didn't intend it. I'm but I'm dead serious here. The

it. I'm but I'm dead serious here. The

reason I'm doing this project and not a PhD is because I think it'll help me grasp truth better because as you know a lot of the academia is quite oified.

You're kind of forced into these narrow specializations. If I want a proper

specializations. If I want a proper survey not just to the western canon but eventually the non-western text as well and I want to do it seriously with good private tutors while interviewing and

talking with the best scholars. This is

the vessel to do that. The media stuff is almost an excuse. So I I I do actually conceive of myself as retreating from the life of action into the life of contemplation.

>> You're, seeking, the, truth., Yeah.

>> And, the, media, empire, is, a, byproduct, of that. It's an accident.

that. It's an accident.

>> It's, an, accident, and, it's, also, the vehicle. It's a vehicle. Yeah. Yeah.

vehicle. It's a vehicle. Yeah. Yeah.

>> That, is, actually, the, correct, position.

You're in the transcendent position.

>> Okay.

>> Uh, so, so, in, both, Daoism, where, they, call what you describe as wow, doing by not doing, >> right?, Um, in, Hinduism, they, have, the, same

>> right?, Um, in, Hinduism, they, have, the, same thing. The the outward way of looking at

thing. The the outward way of looking at entrepreneurship is to see the entrepreneur building something in the world. The inward way is to understand

world. The inward way is to understand the entrepreneurs working out their own karma to achieve um release liberation inner liberation uh enlightenment. Um

uh enlightenment. Um >> is, that, how, you, think, about, your, own project that that this is your eight-fold noble path?

>> Yes., Yes.

>> Okay., Okay., Well,, tell, tell, us, story because it's not obvious at all why.

Yeah. Making a ton of money is the ageful noble path.

>> Well,, the, first, thing, is, to, challenge the idea of progress itself. I may be the only founder who doesn't believe that there is such a thing as progress in the absolute sense.

>> Okay,, tell, us, about, that.

>> Um,, well,, uh,, I, think, the, ancient Chinese understood that everything is constantly changing. Can you think of

constantly changing. Can you think of anything in the material world that is not changing?

You might read, say, the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is the oldest book in recorded history from ancient Sumeriia and the characters are so lifelike. You

know, you could be watching this on stage in Broadway, and they have the same dramas that we do. They fall in love, they break up, uh they have victories, they have defeats, they realize that they're mortal and that

they're going to die. Um, and it, you know, there's some tragedy and there's some epicness. And so, the essential

some epicness. And so, the essential human experience has not changed.

>> Now,, we, have, better, plumbing., M

>> we, have, better, dentistry.

>> Mhm.

>> But, uh, when, it's, all, said, and, done,, the overall narrative arcs of human life are uh shockingly consistent. And so going

back to the the summarization of the y-ing, the book of changes, the ancient Chinese um realized that uh it just goes round and around and around in circles.

You know, failure leads to failure failure leads to success, success leads to success, and success leads to failure.

>> Right?, And, this, is, very, much, in, contrast which with the um zeitgeist in Silicon Valley as you know if you read say the

most recent blog post um by Sam Alman uh intelligence age he summarizes all of human history in three words deep learning worked.

This would be like Genghis summarizing human history in two words, stirrups work, >> right?

>> And, from, the, point, of, view, of, the, person at the inflection point, it does seem to be the case that all of history is revised. Meaning is deferred until this

revised. Meaning is deferred until this moment. And then yes, all of history led

moment. And then yes, all of history led up to deep learning. Um, but the mistake is to view the hockey stick as an infinite exponential that never ends.

But as anyone who studied economics or history realizes these hockey sticks uh which are symbols of progress, you know you might say the crucifixion, you know the crucifix was the symbol of

Christianity. The symbol of our age is

Christianity. The symbol of our age is the hockey stick graph.

>> Um, and, then, it, ends, in, an, S-curve., You

know, always uh you you run into a set of constraints that were not previously anticipated and then you plateau for some period of time. You work through the new constraints. you have to

reimagine and and reinvent and then some new breakthrough which isn't stirrups or isn't deep learning that is something else emerges and then all of history then seems to have led up to that moment

>> right >> but, you, see, it's, it's, not, um, the, the, the temptation is to come to a utopian um or messianic conclusion but in fact the

voice is luciferian so the two messages in the media today are longevity you're going to live forever an AI, you're going to have God as your slave, a genie in a bottle, omnipotent intelligence

fulfilling all of your wishes. So, in

summary, you're going to live forever and, you're, going to, be, God., That, is Luciferian. So, the two binding curses

Luciferian. So, the two binding curses in Genesis are the curse after he eats the fruit that he will live by the sweat of his brow and he will die. And then

the second curse of the tower of Babel the curse of coordination costs uh comes in. And so in economic terms, these

in. And so in economic terms, these three curses, you know, the curse of mortality, the curse of labor, the curse of coordination costs as being um as

describing the shape of our economy uh to this day. So given these constraints um you know, technology, if economics is all about trade-offs, technology and religion are are similar in the sense

that they're about transcending trade-offs, but technology is a materialistic religion.

>> Let, me, play, Silicon, Valley's, uh, the devil's advocate here.

Yes, like the same problems that we face, they're the same problems that our ancestors faced thousands of years ago.

But when you look at technology technology is something that transcends generation from generation and meaningfully changes the landscape of things that it builds from one generation to another generation. Once

once you've invented the printing press as long as there's no cataclysmic event you keep the printing press. Right? That

is the claim of a technologist. It's not

that human nature has changed. Although

even there, right, we we we're starting to see things like Osmpic that can plausibly change human nature, but just as a tool point that notion of progress you still disagree with that. Uh to to

use your example of the printing press you know, it certainly seems today that our society is more literate than say um you know, the society at the time of the reformation, >> right?

>> But, is, it, really?, There's, um, the, term for it is the overproduction of elites.

You know, everyone has a college degree but the statistics on how many people read books after they graduate from college are shockingly abysmal. You

know, um most people don't are not really aware of the history of ideas.

And so the sacredness of learning has been lost. Whereas in a in a society

been lost. Whereas in a in a society where everyone learned was treated like a magician >> um, and, those, who, were, learned, were plumbing the depths of of reality. Um

you know there was definitely uh something magnificent about that society. Um and

the thing is that we are measuring progress entirely in terms of um pleasure and creature comforts.

>> And, when, you, look, at, people, who, have, all of their material needs met, are they indeed happier than somebody who is meditating in a cave? I had the pleasure

last summer of um having lunch with a uh Buddhist nun, the eldest Buddhist nun in the world and she uh was born an English woman um and ended up spending 12 years

meditating in a cave in uh in India.

She, was, one, of the, happiest, people, I've ever met. I'll never forget it. Uh and

ever met. I'll never forget it. Uh and

she had a wicked sense of humor, too.

I am sure that she was happier in that cave than most uh wealthy people are in five-star hotels.

>> Right?, Here's, the, view, then., Technology

can progress. It is cumulative. It does

it can make a huge difference. But what

doesn't progress is that the core questions of the good life that is what is uh uh constant. That's the view.

That's what you say when you say that there is no progress. You're saying

there's no progress on the most important of things. And that I would agree with you. In fact, there might be regress in modernity.

>> So, given, that, view,, given, as, you, say, the primacy of happiness as of of this nun meditating 12 years in a in a cave by herself and uh all these unhappy wealthy

people, um why is building invisible which is now a multi-billion dollar company, why is that your path to salvation? Why is that a spiritual path?

salvation? Why is that a spiritual path?

Why is building this startup a spiritual path for you?

Because to save myself is not enough.

The true king makes others king. So the

bodhicappa vow is to uh save all sentient beings. So if everyone else is

sentient beings. So if everyone else is in this in the illusion, I might as well play in the illusion and then within the sandbox help point to to the to the truth. If you wanted to to take global

truth. If you wanted to to take global GDP growth from 3% a year to 100% a year, um change everyone's mindset.

>> Got, it., I, see., You, know,, take, take, the take the empowered entrepreneurial mindset and propagate that infinitely.

You'll change the shape of the economy really quickly.

>> This, is, uh, a, lightning, vehicle, for enlightenment.

>> Correct., Correct., Yes., Sudden

enlightenment.

>> Put, on, your, uh, your, earbuds, because, I have the the perfect audio from you almost a decade ago.

>> Okay., Here, we, go.

is that in your writing you say our company represents the best hope for world peace. You compared uh your

world peace. You compared uh your startup to the 21st century abolition movement, America's best national defense strategy and uh saving free speech in corporate America. That's

right. When you were looking for to hire a COO, this is what you wrote. What I

don't need is a boss. I'm the boss. I

don't fall in line. You do. We'll debate

many decisions, but ultimately you align. This is an important subtle line

align. This is an important subtle line that must be sacred.

So, let's begin. I mean, I'm always so tickled that people actually read this stuff.

>> Are, you, Are, you, being, facicious?

>> No,, not, at, all., It's, I, I, find, it hilarious.

>> Is, that, how, you, run, your, company?

>> I, Yeah,, actually,, it, is.

>> What?, These, are, these, are, such, like amazing time capsules.

>> I, know., It's, crazy.

>> And, I, have, five, hours, of, them., Um

>> Yeah., Let, me, share, with, the, audience >> why, I, reached, out, to, you, in, the, first place to be a bit more specific >> which, is, that, you, had, this, ridiculous grandiosity about you like you literally wrote like one of the the titles of your

blog post by the way when you just failed the company and Invisible is doing like you were really struggling.

>> Yes,, that's, right.

>> Like, we're, going, to, save, the, world, and you just you just said it and I had the feeling that you actually meant it.

>> Yeah., And, so, I, told, you, to, your, face, I I'll add that clip later on >> that, you, are, donkeyote, or, or, rather, 99% chance you are donkeyote thinking you're Amari of Gaul and that I think I believe

I said exactly the same thing. I can't

wait to talk to you again in 10 years and figure out who you actually are.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Now, it, appears, you're, a, bit, more, Ami, of Gaul than I than I thought you were.

>> But, yeah,, tell, me, about, that., Tell, me about this this like radical way of running companies because there is this weird Silicon Valley like oh I'm going to change the world like Theronos this kind of like

>> faux, heroism, faux, romanticism.

>> Yeah.

>> But, you, are, an, actually, committed romantic capital R romantic.

>> Yeah.

>> Tell, us, about, that.

>> Where, I, find, that, I've, hopefully, matured in the last 10 years. You know, the person on the clip just now believed that that there there could be a messianic company or there could be messianic companies.

>> There, could, be, progress.

>> There, could, be, progress,, right?, And

you've just heard me articulate the opposite view.

>> Um,, but, I, do, think, I, arrived, at, the opposite view through going to the extreme.

>> I, see., Initially,, you, were, you, were, you were ready for the for apocalypse essentially, >> right?, Uh,, to, use, St., Paul's, uh

>> right?, Uh,, to, use, St., Paul's, uh admonition to uh one of the early churches, um, you are lukewarm. I spit

you out of my mouth. Right? I think most people exist in this sort of lukewarm consensus normality in all of their views and actions. And so there is an

inherent virtue in the person who is willing to follow their thinking to an extreme. Um, now obviously there's a

extreme. Um, now obviously there's a difference between um say a uh a terrorist um and a non-violent martyr but they're both have this thing in

common that they are, you know, extreme and willing to die for their beliefs right?

>> Even, though, they're, opposite, terribly lacking today. That's terribly lacking

lacking today. That's terribly lacking today. Correct.

today. Correct.

>> In, all, domains,, including, religion.

Yeah.

>> So,, I, admire, my, previous, self, for >> terrorizing., uh, no, for, for, you, know, for

>> terrorizing., uh, no, for, for, you, know, for my willingness to uh wear red shoes so to speak. Do you know that the popes of

to speak. Do you know that the popes of the Catholic Church wear red slippers uh symbolizing Christ's willingness to die for his beliefs and they're supposed to be um you know the representative of Christ on earth. So they're supposed to

be willing to die for their beliefs. So

I I do believe that one should build a company to pursue the ideal in all respects. The onlogical corporate

respects. The onlogical corporate strategy is, for, the, company, to, to to, start, all

strategic questions with um what would the ideal company have as its values?

How would the ideal company organize itself? How would the ideal company

itself? How would the ideal company incentivize its team members? And this

idealism then confronts a very uh messy uh reality full of challenges and scarcity. And you have this um you know

scarcity. And you have this um you know design challenge design like technology like religion is about transcending trade-offs. So you think okay how can I

trade-offs. So you think okay how can I achieve the ideal even though there's so much scarcity even, though there's, so, much, challenge and messiness. I said in that clip, you

and messiness. I said in that clip, you hear me say something like, uh Invisible is the answer to world peace or something. Uh, I still kind of

or something. Uh, I still kind of believe that. Um, except it's taking the

believe that. Um, except it's taking the form now of me starting, uh, one of two foundations. The Sovereignty Foundation

foundations. The Sovereignty Foundation is dedicated to uh, empowering sovereign individuals, sovereign companies sovereign governments. Um, and it's it

sovereign governments. Um, and it's it ultimately begins with a mindset. It's

an attitude. It's an alternative not just to the venture game. It's not just an alternative corporate strategy. It's

an alternative uh to woke wokeness and victim thinking. It's it's about

victim thinking. It's it's about self-reliance. Um and so I can't think

self-reliance. Um and so I can't think of something better for world peace than if the whole world became more self-reliant.

>> Any, other, foundation?, The, Eternity Foundation is trying to bring all the wisdom of the ancient and medieval and classical world uh back to life with AI

including uh undertaking projects uh that are um you know digitizing and translating ancient texts, preserving uh ancient music and and ancient traditions

um and then helping to bring them back into our contemporary culture in some way.

>> Renaissance.

>> Renaissance., Yeah,, I, do, think, there should be an Elon for the arts and Elon not just for the arts but for um culture

>> for, for, for, uh, 21st, century, castles, and cathedrals for for life here on earth and the future here on earth. There's a

lot of things that are ancient that are actually futuristic >> and, that, should, not, be, lost., When, I asked you the same question about I think why uh Invisible is going to save

the world 10 years ago, you made this somewhat ridiculous argument about oh we're going to help you know people from the third world contractors get good jobs and globalism. That's not your

answer now. It's that the wealth through

answer now. It's that the wealth through invisible. Invisible might be a

invisible. Invisible might be a vanguard. It might be an example of how

vanguard. It might be an example of how one ought live, right? It's a it's an expression of your philosophy. But it's

through the wealth that you generate that you deploy into other things.

That's the primary path salvation >> actually., You, know,, the, amazing, thing, is

>> actually., You, know,, the, amazing, thing, is that uh you know, Invisible is a wealth creation vehicle for all of our partners and for our agents. You know, we we employ um you know uh several hundred

people on the core team. And then as contractors, we have 6,000 people now globally. And if we compound at 100% a

globally. And if we compound at 100% a year, uh there's a possibility we become the largest manpower organization on the planet, bigger than the US military which today is the largest manpower organization. What that means for world

organization. What that means for world peace, world trade, is um when I started the company, I I read some statistic along the lines of 70% of the world makes less than $10 a day. And I just

thought there's just so many brains, so many so many high potential um people that are being underutilized.

The best automation company should be the best training company and should always figure out a way to to train humans to do the next thing that computers can't do. And that'll be an infinite dialectic. It'll proceed over

infinite dialectic. It'll proceed over decades. And if we can create that

decades. And if we can create that >> you, know,, uh, on-ramp, >> right, >> then, we, are, going, to, create, a, new, global middle class, right? What would the global middle class do?

>> World, peace.

>> World, peace,, you, know., And, so,, um,, the if you could create, you know, a global middle class which has generational wealth, then the next generation, that

person's son or daughter might become an entrepreneur. So, if we create these

entrepreneur. So, if we create these you know, uh, global paths, you know uh, meritocratic paths to to, um, for talent, >> right?, World, peace, is, not, that, crazy, if

>> right?, World, peace, is, not, that, crazy, if you do it at scale, right?

>> Not, at, all., Let, me, ask, you, this., There's

so many interesting things you talked about the company and I want to really dig deep into the philosophy there and the philosophy of sovereignty.

>> But, tell, me, about, your, personal, life because you you are a big meditator right?

>> You're, a, big, contemplator., You, read, a lot of classics.

>> Man, of, action,, the, active, life,, the contemplative life, the meditative life.

>> Yeah.

>> These, three, things, are, seen, by, many intellectual traditions as being conflicting with each other.

>> Yeah., certain, the, contemplative, one, or the one of the scholar that which you know we all heard that audio that you look down upon the pure scholar >> the, man, of, action, there's, a, clear tension there but in many traditions

there's even a tension between the the contemplator and the meditator right think about the Buddha saying why are you asking me all these metaphysical questions like if someone shot you with an arrow are you going to inquire like

oh what kind of feather has the arrow have just pull it out >> and, of, course, there's, a, deep, tension between the meditative life the monastic life like celibacy, poverty >> and, the, active, life.

>> Yeah.

>> How, are, you, thinking, about, reconcile, all these three parts in your own life right now?

>> Um, just be don't think uh it is possible to contain multitudes. It's possible to be

contain multitudes. It's possible to be more than one thing, right?

>> Um, and, I, think, the, gifted, child, so, to speak is uniquely burdened, right?

Because for example um I have a cousin who is uh you know just got into college but is a musician. He's a classical

musician and a pianist and he has this great tension between pursuing his musical talent and he knows he could be one of the best and also pursuing all of

his other talents and and continuing his academic career. I really relate to that

academic career. I really relate to that because I went through similar forks in the road in my own journey.

>> Um, I, was, a, martial, artist, growing, up., I

still consider myself a martial artist today, but it I never have had a chapter or a season to make it my number one priority. I adore music. I love music. I

priority. I adore music. I love music. I

love dancing. I love singing. I love

listening to music. I wish I could be a musician. I wish I could be a producer

musician. I wish I could be a producer and a DJ. Um as you know I have this great drive towards uh seeking uh knowledge

um and and at some point I have not you know made that the number one priority in my life. It's just I read on airplanes. I read I read every night I

airplanes. I read I read every night I read every morning but you know I I have a business to run. Um, it seemed to me that my unique individual calling was to

be an entrepreneur, but that entrepreneurship had the unique leverage built into it of capital. Capital

has the um hermetic quality of being able to transform into everything else.

So, you could turn capital into manifest it as a house. You can uh manifest it as a um music production company. you can

manifest it as a university. Uh, and so I'm doing all those things now that I have capital. I'm I'm I'm to some extent

have capital. I'm I'm I'm to some extent redeeming all the previous forks in the road that I left behind a long time ago because those were parts of myself I didn't betray.

>> I, see.

>> I, tried, to, I, tried, to, to, keep, them alive. I tried to keep these parts of

alive. I tried to keep these parts of myself alive instead of cutting off those branches. Right.

those branches. Right.

>> I, tried, to, keep, the, seed, or, the, DNA, of it. Um

it. Um >> Right., Yeah.

>> Right., Yeah.

>> And, now, you're, transmorphing, them through capital in a high almost more high leverage way than you would have been able to do by yourself. So in other words, you chose the route of company

building of amassing capital um because that activity itself like you described for all these all these uh high ideals is its own sort of spiritual philosophical pursuit

>> but, importantly, it's, the, thing, that enables everything else. So you chose the one that could allow you to eventually contain everything else. It's

like Hegel in the phenomenology of spirit, right? This idea of like which I

spirit, right? This idea of like which I think translates to sublate.

>> Sublating, is, not, getting, rid, of something. It's not pure negation. It's

something. It's not pure negation. It's

about some about resolving the contradiction in something and containing the essence into a into a higher form that may look like its opposite. building a company looks like

opposite. building a company looks like the opposite of being in a cave in poverty and chastity but actually is able to contain the core essence.

>> Yes, >> that's, what, you've, done.

>> H, have, you, read, the, Vimalakerti, Sutra?

>> I, was, just, about, to, bring, that, up because the Vikerti Sutra is one of my favorite sutras because it talks about a practitioner a monk >> who's, a, layman

>> who's, a, layman, who's, in, the, world, and >> and, who's, good, not, despite, but, because he is in the world. When I practiced in the Tibetan monastery in Nepal, they

told me that the layman's path is the diff more difficult path but in some sense because of it the more noble path be >> because, you, are, being, tempted.

>> Yes.

>> You, are, exposing, yourself, to, temptation.

That's right.

>> So, let, me, ask, you, this, ju, just, on, the meditation front, meditative life active life.

Do you think building this company like the Vimilikerti Sutra has been a a hindrance or an accelerant to your path of spiritual progress?

>> Everything, serves, to, further, everything serves to further.

>> So, all, the, meetings, you, get,, all, the crazy inbounds you get, all the temptations that is helpful on your meditative path.

>> The, great, challenge, would, be, to, meditate right now while we're having this interview.

>> So, So, you, want, to, play, on, hard, mode.

That's what you're saying. This is well hard mode is hard if you deem it to be hard. It's easy if you deem it to be

hard. It's easy if you deem it to be easy. Jesus walking on water and

easy. Jesus walking on water and inviting his disciples to do so as well.

And as soon as they lose faith and they doubt, they sink. Um but until they, you know, until they doubt, when they have faith, they walk on water. And so I

think that going to the edge is when you're doing it right. If you're

doing it right, it should feel life should feel like an act of faith.

investing feels this way. You know, the first year I paid myself more than $100,000 was uh in 2021, I think.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah., I, think, I, was, um, you, know,, 31 years old. Um and I finished paying off

years old. Um and I finished paying off my college debt. Um the last stroke of it was only, you know, last year. Um

last summer was the first time I sold shares in my company and became a millionaire liquid. But then I've been

millionaire liquid. But then I've been investing it aggressively. um writing

angel investments, which is very karmic for me because every time I write a check uh even if even if it's a $25,000

check, you know, um into a uh into a startup, an entrepreneur I believe in, I know as an entrepreneur that this check

may go to zero or it may become worth a lot. But I know that the number of

lot. But I know that the number of people who bet on me and basically wrote it off in their own mind and yet even though they wrote it off did everything they could to help

that is what led to my success and so I have to pay it forward. Um I view it as even though it's not literally debt it's like karmic debt. I feel like I have to.

Um, and so we've invested in 30 companies in the last year, both from the corporate balance sheet and me individually. And then philanthropically

individually. And then philanthropically as well, letting go is one of the ways you know the ring of power hasn't corrupted you yet.

>> Like, because, you, can, you, can, open, your hand, you know, you don't have a clenched fist. You can just say um and

clenched fist. You can just say um and so and and same thing, you know, anger management. Um what a what a discipline.

management. Um what a what a discipline.

What a yoga it is to manage people.

>> Um, because, you, have, these, conflicting tensions. You can't be so compassionate

tensions. You can't be so compassionate that you are you are uh abusing shareholders on behalf of your your

team, right? You know, uh sure, I don't

team, right? You know, uh sure, I don't care that you know the results suck and you're you're not working hard and no because you're not being compassionate to shareholders >> right?, And, so, or, them, or, them, it's

>> right?, And, so, or, them, or, them, it's ultimately not in their best interest.

And so uh you understand why Mchaveli says it's better to be feared than to be loved. Well, you know, ideally you can

loved. Well, you know, ideally you can find a way to do both. Very difficult.

You have to find the middle way um of simultaneously saying, you know, I care about you. I

see that this is challenging. I I I hear your excuses and I understand the validity in them. And yet

you must hear this feedback and here are your incentives. Here are

the, you know, punishments and rewards associated with it. This has been such a great master class for me because I, you know, the the reason I initially reached

out, you're eight years older than me. I

just turned 27. And one of the other reasons I initially reached out was because I recognize your kind of religious dedication to

something. in myself. In fact, um our

something. in myself. In fact, um our early discussions were about heroism.

And my Chinese name, if you if you remember, ya, literally translates to hero >> and, so, I've, always, had, that, that, impulse in me.

>> I, think, I, was, always, a, bit, more, shy, than you of being so public with it.

>> Yeah.

>> And, at, the, time,, I, was, kind, of suspicious. I was like, is this guy a

suspicious. I was like, is this guy a complete f? I mean, I told you to face

complete f? I mean, I told you to face >> to, your, face., Yeah., Is, this, is, this Donkeyote?

>> Yeah., But, now, after, 10, years, later,, I'm seeing not only how this your kind of religious conviction, your company got it past things that no other reasonable entrepreneur would have survived through. And I I want to ask you about

through. And I I want to ask you about that.

>> Yeah.

>> But, I'm, seeing, how, at, the, point, of, your success now >> Yeah.

>> where, other, entrepreneurs, who, are content with a SAS business, you know I'm be a billionaire soon. I'll just

like, you know, get a get a yacht here.

And you're going to keep on going. And

what what's so interesting is I'm always shocked about how uncreative philanthropy is. I believe

$300 billion of assets are donated in philanthropy in America. Where is our Medici? Who who is funding our

Medici? Who who is funding our cathedrals? Like like what the hell are

cathedrals? Like like what the hell are people like donating their their money to? you know, and it's so and and to see

to? you know, and it's so and and to see how again the kind of heroism which is why I I reach out to you in the first place almost 10 years ago

to see that not be a hindrance, not make a fool out of yourself, but be this kind of accelerant has just been Yeah, it's it's a master class.

>> Would, you, co-ound, the, Eternity Foundation with me?

>> Uh,, I'm, happy, to, discuss., Yes,, I, I, would love to discuss this with you. I love I would love to discuss it with you. Yeah

>> good., I'm, glad, we, got, that, on, camera.

>> So,, uh, there's, a, lot, there., As, a, child, I was enamored with Arththerian legend.

>> Yeah.

>> If,, uh,, you, know,, anyone, in, the, audience is not familiar with the genre, I would recommend starting with TH White's The Once and Future King. Before the once future king, there was Alfred Lord

Tennyson's Idols of the King. Before

that uh in the um 15th century there was Thomas Mallalerie's Lamort Arthur and before that uh going all the way back to early Britain there was historium Britannier the Mabanogon and then the

French romances and then the German pars of all Grail quest.

This um mythology can be summarized as the knight who defeats the dragon to rescue

the princess, save the realm, become king, restore justice, peace, and prosperity, live happily ever after, and pass on the kingdom to a noble heir and

worthy successor, his son and die in peace.

In the tragic version, um Arthur is betrayed by his best friend, his queen and his firstborn son. So there's the epic version and the tragic version

both contained in the potential, the potential of the archetypal landscape.

And the knight is the midpoint between two archetypes.

the uh saintly martyr like Christ or Buddha who turns the other cheek and is willing to be killed on behalf of all people.

And the Viking warlord or barbarian warlord who invades, rapes and pillages, takes what

they want by force. So you have right for its own sake. Mhm.

>> You, have, might, makes, right, and, then, in the middle the chivalous ideal of might in service of right.

>> Right.

>> I, was, deeply, moved, even, as, a, child, in, a way I couldn't explain. You know as a little kid running around with a sword and a cape. You can't explain why you like this. And then I was deeply

like this. And then I was deeply saddened around the same age that kids find out that Santa Claus isn't real to find out that the force isn't real in Star Wars and the magic in Lord of the

Rings isn't real and and actually there are no more knights anymore and all the princesses are on hinge you know, and so on and so forth. Uh and

the king the kingdom belongs to the investment bankers and so on and so forth. It's just the actual world we

forth. It's just the actual world we live in, right >> is, so, tragically, non-romantic, in, this sense.

>> And, this, took,, you, know,, sort, of, years of a kind of philosophical melancholy to work out. You know, my teenage years, my 20s, even my early 30s was >> and, you, were, struggling.

>> Yes.

>> Mentally.

>> Yes.

>> It's, not, easy.

>> This, world, is, crazym.

>> It's, not, easy, to, be, the, last, night essentially. It's not easy to be again

essentially. It's not easy to be again donkeyote, the last hero in a world that no longer believes, right? And and so again, this is why like and I really hope people listen to the snippets of

our conversations 10 years ago. Like you

were struggling through all of this.

>> Yes.

>> And, to, see, you, come, out, the, other, side and see those things that were holding you back >> now, propel, you, forward, is, just, so incredible. Yeah.

incredible. Yeah.

>> I, feel, seen, by, you., Very, few, people, can see someone else's soul so clearly. And

I don't know what gift you have that makes that possible. I'm sure you make other people feel this way, but it's uncanny. Um, but yes, this this these

uncanny. Um, but yes, this this these were the questions of my life that were >> you, know,, both, the, sensemaking, questions trying to understand the world and also when you realize is the world crazy or

am I crazy because I don't like the way the world is.

>> Yeah.

>> Um,, and, Doniote, is, the, exact, foil., So

the person kiote written by Cervantes in the 16th century in the age of gunpowder and industrial armies. Um you know there's no need for

armies. Um you know there's no need for knights anymore. There's no need for for

knights anymore. There's no need for for chivalry and heroism. There's no need for magic. Uh there's that funny scene

for magic. Uh there's that funny scene in Indiana Jones where the guy's wielding the sword and Indiana Jones just brings out his gun and shoots him.

Right.

The guy wielding the sword like >> that's, you., That, was, you, at, least.

>> Exactly., That's, that's, Don, Kiote, and Indiana Jones is like, "Oh yeah, here's a gun." They say in love that you you

a gun." They say in love that you you have to be willing to be a fool for love, otherwise it's not love. Um the

same is true with magic. You have to be willing to be a fool to produce a miracle. Um if you're not willing to jump out of the boat to try to walk on water, you're not going to

walk on water. And so I think uh and you have Abraham, sacrifice of Isaac, the the father of faith. So many stories involve the the leap of faith

which is also willingness to be crazy.

Yeah. You know um and and it's going into central paradoxes.

>> So, so, for, me >> uh the the question was is it possible to be a knight >> still?

>> Why, aren't, there, any, knights?

>> Yeah.

And is it desirable to be anything else other than that? And I came to the view that life wasn't worth living so to speak.

>> Yeah.

>> If, I, could, not, pursue, a, noble, life., And

so and the noble life seemed to me to be fully a knight and yet not fight against flesh and blood. But as St. Paul says

we fight, you know, um not against flesh and blood, but against the invisible realm. And so uh for me even though I

realm. And so uh for me even though I was sitting at a coffee shop as a broke entrepreneur with my laptop sending emails >> in, my, imagination, I, was, fighting, a

dragon. Now what what were the dragons I

dragon. Now what what were the dragons I was fighting? You know was the the great

was fighting? You know was the the great dragon of inefficiency for example you know invisible exists to provide efficiency. What would the world

provide efficiency. What would the world be like if um it was uh 10 times more efficient?

Uh but that that wasn't the only dragon I was fighting. Um but this is this is gives you a sense for how I was able to motivate myself intrinsically >> right?

>> Um, to, to, keep, going., The, uh, worldly Arththeran legacy is to build a just kingdom and that kingdom could be a company. So when I realized, well, wait

company. So when I realized, well, wait does my kingdom need to be a state with a military? Like what exactly is the

a military? Like what exactly is the difference between a corporation and a government? Oh, a government has a

government? Oh, a government has a monopoly on force. But in all other respects, you know, as long as they operate within the laws of that state they have their own laws. So there is a

there is a an a sphere, so to speak, of free will where you can write your own laws and create your own company. And

that is the the the free space of action, the potential in which the entrepreneur can move. And so I can build a kingdom in that space. And then

when I realized we could build a network state, you know, we have people in over 100 countries around the world. I

thought, wait a second, my kingdom is already global.

>> The, sun, never, sets, on, the, invisible empire.

>> Um, and, so, that, was, to, some, extent, a kingdom of the world. And then I realized that there's the the same problems that Arthur deals with are the problems of um not just success, initial

success, not just compounding success success squared, but succession. How do

you pass the kingdom on? And so we've had, you know, two CEOs after me at Invisible. Um and so we have a a lineage

Invisible. Um and so we have a a lineage of succession. Um and we have a board

of succession. Um and we have a board governance. I I still don't think the

governance. I I still don't think the company could survive without me. But

the goal is to make it such a robust institution that um you know whenever death comes uh the the institution is ready. So so there is a building of the

ready. So so there is a building of the kingdom for the world.

>> This, interview, has, uh, has, been, so educative that that I now I I think I want to re-update my answer about what I'm doing.

>> Yeah.

>> Because, very, much, like, you, I, am, I, am, not abandoning the world. I think you're right. I am alen. I'm sublating because

right. I am alen. I'm sublating because the primary aim for me is just getting at the truth of the heart of the matter.

>> Yeah., Yeah.

>> But, not, in, a, way, that, abandons, the world. And and let let me put it this

world. And and let let me put it this way. Perhaps I had the exact opposite

way. Perhaps I had the exact opposite realization that you had that my nature was fundamentally of a thinker whereas yours was of the doer.

>> Yeah.

>> And, in, the, same, way, that, you, amassed, all this capital >> Yeah., And, you, see, that, as, a, way, to, to, to

>> Yeah., And, you, see, that, as, a, way, to, to, to to push these other things that you used to love.

>> Yeah.

>> Or, you, still, love,, but, you, know,, you're just not as superly supremely gifted.

For me, that's that's that's that's knowledge. And that is the way that I

knowledge. And that is the way that I aim to help other things, including technology um that I care so much about.

So I'm starting an interview of on the philosophy of AI. Um and that's my does that make sense? So So now I want I want to revise that answer. In fact, when you talked about Eternity Foundation um

sparked something in my mind as well which is uh my family was one of the great houses in the empire and for about 600 years we produced some of the great greatest scholars um through the

imperial bureaucracy and uh one of my great, great great, however, many, up generations grandfather was uh the head tutor to the emperor Duong.

>> Wow.

>> And, uh, and, he, he, so, he, advised, him throughout the Opium War.

>> Wow., And, I've, had, him, and, this, is, my mother's lineage as the ideal because like you I'm trying to be a scholar mentor or something like that in the

world in the same way that you were trying to rescue the the the Arththeran ideals.

>> There, is, no, Merlin, with, there's, no Arthur without Merlin.

>> Yeah., Exactly., And, that's, once, you, put it that way and I think about what have been the greatest influences in my life.

It is looking up to my ancestors and and seeing the not just the incredible intellectual output that they did but all of the the great men the men of action that they mentored and tutored and brought up.

>> Um, they, were, part, of, the, Halian, Academy.

So Haleian Academy is like the highest uh uh sort of imperial imperial scholarly and and part of its function was to educate the princes. And so for example I'm hosting a dinner here in a

week educating the princes of today which is the founders. So, I'm hosting a a philosophy discussion telling them about Trart's philosophy of innovation.

And so, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for being a mirror 10 years ahead of me that helping me understand all this. Yeah.

>> Thank, you, for, being, a, mirror., You, are such a mirror.

>> Um,, let's, take, take, a, step, back.

>> Yeah.

>> And, talk, about, your, experience, at, at Invisible because >> again,, I'm, going, to, play, the, clips, later on.

>> It, must, have, been, extremely, difficult for you. Not only had you failed a

for you. Not only had you failed a company into your late late 20s already.

Yeah.

>> You, were, barely, paying, yourself anything.

>> That's, right.

>> Company, wasn't, working., Yeah., Like, what was going on your mind? And again, this is all on the backdrop of you thinking you're a hero and the world giving you absolutely no validation.

>> Yeah.

>> So, tell, us, how, you, kept, the, flame, of, the theorian legend alive during that period.

>> Yeah.

>> And, how, close, was, it, to, extinguishing?

>> Close., So, my, first, company, failed, um Yeah. And I put all of my life force

Yeah. And I put all of my life force into that company uh from um even before I graduated from university. Uh then you

know for for four years. Um so I graduated 2011 and the first check we we raised was New Year's 20 2012.

Uh and then 2012 2013 2014 it failed.

Um, and it took me a long time to process it. Um, I did the commamino de

process it. Um, I did the commamino de to Santiago in Spain uh to walk it off so to speak.

Walked 400 miles to process it. Um, and

then I I had this almost out-of- body experience turning down job offers at great companies like Google and Facebook and and Airbnb. Um, because some voice in my head was saying, "You're not done

being an entrepreneur yet." So after about a year I had this thought there's an app for everything. So why isn't everything perfect is the end of history the SAS business model you know

Salesforce, was, sort, of the, first, big, SAS company 1999 and and so now it's been 25 years uh of SAS being the dominant business model in Silicon Valley. Um and

it's very attractive because it's high margin uh very high switching costs.

Once you have a subscription, it's hard to unsubscribe. It's part of your stack

to unsubscribe. It's part of your stack and um it doesn't involve labor to scale it. And so a whole industrial complex

it. And so a whole industrial complex had emerged. Uh you you graduate from

had emerged. Uh you you graduate from college and then instead of going to work at McKenzie or Goldman, you can go get into Y Combinator and if you just read enough VC blog posts, you can have

a courses on a rarum and sort of follow best practices and best practice your way to being a unicorn. And you see the you know, this is not just an industrial

complex. It's a cultural industrial

complex. It's a cultural industrial complex. Um, of the professional

complex. Um, of the professional managerial class attempting to put entrepreneurship in a bottle, so to

speak, you know, um, and it seemed to be working, but I just felt it wasn't heroic. It

wasn't worth wasn't worth doing. It

wasn't worth building the next SAS company. And so I realized that there is

company. And so I realized that there is this unattacked industry over here of um professional services companies. Uh the

biggest being Accenture, you know Accenture is worth $250 billion. And

it's not just Accenture. It's McKenzie

Bane BCG EY PWC KPMG Deote Infosys, Cognizant. I can keep going.

Infosys, Cognizant. I can keep going.

There's there's big service companies in almost every industry. And venture

capitalists had not funded a single disruptive service company. So these

these were the blockbusters. I realized

nobody had attempted to Netflix. So uh

when I started Invisible, I had uh this idea of I'm going to run this company 200 m hour at a wall and force the wall

to move or crash.

And so we raised uh 500K in like a month. We had five clients paying us

month. We had five clients paying us $10,000 a month and we were spending $20,000 a month to support each 10k a month client with an executive support

offering and uh we crashed into a wall about six months later because we could not figure out how to get positive gross margins and happy clients and we weren't

able to raise more money. And so, uh even though I'd recruited 20 people in a very short period of time, we had to let all of them go because we couldn't keep paying them. Uh, even though we

paying them. Uh, even though we convinced them to quit their jobs and make only $4,000 a month. Um, and so then for 18 months was bootstrapping

um, paying myself ramen noodle money you know, like nothing. Uh, less than $1,000 a month, sometimes zero, uh, to me and five other people who refused to quit. And then a few months after that

quit. And then a few months after that on my birthday, I woke up, my email account was deleted, my Google Drive was deleted, some angry employee, we had

some people hadn't been able to be fully paid that final check even though we gave them advanced notice. Um, this

person was owed $2,000. Um, keep in mind he'd only been with the company for like two or three months and he knew it was a startup and he knew what the strategy was, but this person was vindictive and

um, and his intention was to end my entrepreneurial career.

And even though we were eventually able to work with Google to get all the data back and our client wasn't affected >> um,, it, was, such, a,, you, know,, gut, punch.

I I wanted to puke, you know, and I went for a hike that day in the Prescidio and looked at the Golden Gate Bridge and was sitting there. Um I believe I said some

sitting there. Um I believe I said some said shed some tears um and said some prayers and I went through a pretty depressed period that summer wondering

you know, is this should I keep going?

Um, I had already sort of sworn off video games in college, but I found myself watching uh TV shows like Game of Thrones or something and I realized I was just trying to escape. And so I cut

myself off of that. And the only uh thing I let myself indulge in outside of work was uh and the only thing I could afford because I wasn't paying myself

anything was um reading books. So I uh read reread the stoics and I you know started going back to doing um spiritual push-ups so to speak you know um if you

read the stoics you read the Sufis or you read any of these ancient or medieval wisdom texts um you get stronger spiritually you know and you

start to build build momentum again. And

we did start to make progress.

I ran out of uh savings. Um so I couldn't afford San Francisco anymore and I moved to my grandparents ranch in the middle of nowhere. My grandfather

was dying. Um and so when you're I don't know if you've been around people who are dying. It's a very particular

are dying. It's a very particular energy. Um and it felt like somehow a

energy. Um and it felt like somehow a metaphor for the energy in my own life.

>> Yeah.

>> He, has, an, amazing, story, and, he, was, he's sort of a hero. Um, but his ranch was like 65 acres, but without him to run it, it was falling into disrepair.

>> And,, uh,, I, remember, at, one, point, I, had, uh, paid myself some hilariously small amount of money, like a I only made a few hundred that month, and there's no nothing to spend that on other than

something for entertainment. So, I

bought a sword and a bow and arrow, like a bow and archery kit. And uh I remember like bushwacking, like cleaning up the ranch, uh helping my grandmother, you

know, uh uh turn it into a livable place again. Um and then practicing archery

again. Um and then practicing archery when I wasn't working or reading books.

Um and I at this point in time, I read the book of the samurai, Aakur >> and, it, says,, "Just, become, insane, and

desperate to die. 10 men cannot stand against such a man.

>> Was, this, when, I, interviewed, you?, This

was two years in roughly, right? 27.

>> You, interviewed, me, about, a, year, after this.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah., Um,, and, it, was, this, book, and, that line that made me realize I was still holding back. I was still playing nice

holding back. I was still playing nice so to speak. I was still waiting for VCs to play my nice with me. I was still waiting for customers to just show up and realize that this is great. you

know, I wasn't really giving it 110% of my full all. And so if I was and I I sort of felt the unspoken thing amongst the people who cared about me, my

closest friends, my my my aunts, my uncles, my parents, nobody wanted to to pop my bubble and and and and trigger my

pride. Uh but

pride. Uh but they cared about me and and I was sort of 28 years old like what are you doing?

like like get a job, you know, um it's okay.

>> And, I, thought, to, myself,, well,, that might be the outcome someday, but if that is the outcome, I want to know that I sort of left it all on the floor.

>> Go, down, swinging.

>> Yeah,, go, down, swinging., And, so, I mustered some strength. Uh and it was just at the time when we had were ready to come out of our pivot um from being

an executive support company to being a processdriven company. Um and we were

processdriven company. Um and we were supporting startups by running their processes and we started to grow rapidly again and I was hustling really hard. Um

and we were able to raise more money uh from angels. Um this is a period of time

from angels. Um this is a period of time when Ed Lando uh who I now consider a brother but was already a close friend uh came in with more money. Um Charlie

Songst who's now on the board of Meta and is on our board as my vice chairman and and is almost like an intellectual co-founder of Invisible at this point.

That's when he invested. And then about 6 months after that we we raised our first uh preede institutional round. We

raised about a million dollars from backed and uh Deep Water. and we were we were going concern again, but even then there was almost a near-death experience where we almost ran out of money before

that round was raised. Um, and then the next round was a $3 million round and we had grown to a million- dollar run rate at this point and positive gross margins

finally. Um this was in uh 2019 now. So

finally. Um this was in uh 2019 now. So

4 years after the start of the company and then we of course were flat for like six seven months and there was a period of time where I decided we're not going

to, raise, a, series, A., Uh, we, were, going to commit the company to profitability.

Everyone's salaries are going to be tied to profitability. So it'll be two steps

to profitability. So it'll be two steps forward, one step back, but we're all going to, be, fully, aligned, and, uh, we're going to go for it. The moment when I made the decision to not raise a series A and commit the company profitably was

January 2020. Two months after that, you

January 2020. Two months after that, you know, the pandemic hit and we suddenly became a critical vendor to digitize every restaurant menu in the United States and Germany and Japan because all

the traditional outsourcing companies had shut down their offices and we were the only one who still had our doors open. And so we tripled that year and

open. And so we tripled that year and tripled the next year and you know um >> lohold., Yeah.

>> lohold., Yeah.

>> Yeah., Yeah., It's, quite, incredible, how you kept that kind of religious conviction throughout whether it's uh uh through through reading these books or or having the right kind of support network. I want to move on to another

network. I want to move on to another topic now.

>> This, is, the, last, audio, I, want, to, play today. It's a very short one. So, put on

today. It's a very short one. So, put on your put on your earbuds.

>> Great.

>> Way, to, really, figure, out, someone's morality is to run them through a series of temptations.

>> I, agree., Um, and, to, see, what, they, do, in all these >> stated, and, revealed, is, very, different >> all, these, situations.

>> That's, it.

>> Your, your, comment, stated, and, revealed, is very different. So good.

very different. So good.

>> Okay.

>> So, you, are, subject, to, many, temptations now now that you're successful. One of

my favorite lines from Marcus Relius's meditations is happiness is possible even in a palace because it means that his assumption is that precisely because it is a palace with all the power

wealth, sex, access, even knowledge can be overdone.

>> Mhm.

>> It, is, tremendously, tempting., How, have you scored I think on these tests of temptation and what is your forward-looking view? Do

you think you're going to stick to your guns?

I spent eight months last year celibate.

Um as and not just celibate, no alcohol nothing else. Um and even had three

nothing else. Um and even had three months of one meal a day and then another three months of two meals a day and then I eventually brought it all back. Um I spent a year as a vegetarian

back. Um I spent a year as a vegetarian the, same, same same, period, of, time., Um

all because uh my life was getting so good in the prior um in the prior six months before I did

this that I was worried about >> attachment.

>> Yeah., Attachment, becoming, manic, becoming megalomaniacal, delusional getting wrapped up in in in success, all these things. And I wanted to know that

these things. And I wanted to know that I could experience joy without these things. So um I did this period of

things. So um I did this period of aseticism um and the Tolken's ring of power which uh is also Plato's ring of power >> gajis

>> Gaji's, ring, yeah, um, this, is >> the, test >> the, realist, real, thing, in, when, it, when it comes to samsara or the world you

know in the world there are all the tests of wealth power pleasure fame and

um And you should assume I assume that unlike Christ and the Buddha um I might fail these tests. To quote St. Paul

what does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul? If you have feedback mechanisms around you uh is you're not insulated from criticism or feedback. You're not

surrounded by flatterers. This is

probably the single best thing you can do to make sure you don't become uh >> unhinged.

>> Unhinged,, megalomaniacal,, listening, to your critics um and hearing them out and considering the views. Don't you don't need to agree with them. And this is not the same thing as trying to please everyone.

>> Yeah.

>> This, is, just, making, sure, you >> you're, open, to, them, and, then, you, decide whether you take it on or not.

>> Yeah., Yeah., Yeah., Um,, another, thing, is another practical thing to do is donation philanthropy. So, uh, I'm, um

donation philanthropy. So, uh, I'm, um I believe you should give away the money before it exists, so to speak. Um

because when it exists, it's very tempting.

>> And, so,, um,, I've,, uh,, set, up, the, estate to, uh, begin, it begins at 8020. So

80% in the family office, 10% in the Sovereignty Foundation, 10% in Eternity Foundation. And then as uh the company

Foundation. And then as uh the company achieves certain milestones and the wealth grows to certain levels, it grows to a third, a third, a third. So a third in eternity, a third in sovereignty, and a third in the family office. Even the

family office is set up to not only benefit my family and friends, but also I want to be meritocratic and adopt in the Roman fashion. Um

>> Wow.

>> Yeah., And, uh, and, I, actually, want, to, set up a a trust fund model where um you know you get you unlock say there was a $2 million fund >> and, we're, talking, teenagers, here,, right?

Because that that's the kind of the Roman way. You pick the best teenagers

Roman way. You pick the best teenagers >> could, be, any, age., Yeah., I, mean, I've, even adopted a brother. Um uh who's who's older than me. Um the uh imagine there was a $2 million trust fund and there

were many of these $2 million trust funds and you have a a recipient um and they get access to it by unlocking certain achievements graduating from

high school, graduating from college um you know uh they could publish a book or publish an album or you know produce some art or start a company uh or achieve some milestone. So the you know

all the incentives are are sort of line but the ultimate unlock you know you could have a secret reserve pool of capital that grows your fund if you are not just a dragon but you're a pen dragon and a pen dragon is someone who

then creates their own family office create their own trust fund so almost like you know >> right, a, nuclear, reaction, essentially >> yes, an, exponential, virus, you, know imagine in the future the future of

socialism is a family office model that scaled and uh empowered everyone because everyone's part of the family you know Um, everyone's incentivized in the right

way. Um, but, uh, there's something

way. Um, but, uh, there's something about giving it all away.

>> Yeah.

>> That, actually, reminds, you, of, now,, okay, the spiritual truth.

Someday you're going to die despite what the longevity people say.

And and the tax rate on death is 100%.

>> Yeah., You, don't, take, anything, with, you.

>> You, don't, take, anything, with, you., Um,

and to some extent, money is made up.

>> Yeah.

>> It's, made, up., and, it's, not, your, actual inherent worth. For example, imagine you

inherent worth. For example, imagine you go to a Michelin restaurant or you stay at a five-star hotel or you have an amazing vacation. When the vacation's

amazing vacation. When the vacation's done, it evaporated. It's a memory. It exists

it evaporated. It's a memory. It exists

only as a memory um in your heart, so to speak. And so, St. Terresa Vavala said

speak. And so, St. Terresa Vavala said that after you die, all of the suffering of your lifetime will feel like no more than one night at a bad hotel.

>> Yeah.

And the reverse is true. All the

pleasure really fades too. So then what is it that lasts? Wealth is what can't be taken away from you. So what is it

that really matters? And this is the solution to the temptation of the ring is remembering that samsara is an illusion.

>> Right, now, we're, back, full, circle.

>> You're, already, in, Nirvana, >> right?, And

>> right?, And this is the play of the world. And so

play, >> be, spontaneous,, enjoy, it,, build,, create, love, have experiences and adventures.

>> Yeah., I, I, got, to, say, this, was, a, much more satisfying answer than I expected.

>> Yeah.

>> That, it, truly, I, think, is, the, test., Like,

can you give up sex for eight months?

Can you give up meat for for eight months? Can you are you willing to give

months? Can you are you willing to give all your money away? So, um, Francis, I can't thank you enough for, uh, coming back here and, uh, for paving seriously a way for for my own life, um, as I try

to reconcile these extremely uh, seemingly hostile elements within my own soul. So, thank you so much and

own soul. So, thank you so much and thanks for paving away.

>> You're, so, welcome., Namaste.

>> Thank, you.

>> Thanks, for, listening, to, this, interview that I filmed with Francis in 2025.

What's coming next is even better. It's

the highlights from our conversations from 2018. And when you listen to this

from 2018. And when you listen to this segment, I want you to keep in mind that Francis was an absolute failure back then. He'd failed his first company. He

then. He'd failed his first company. He

was struggling with his second. He was

recently single and dirt broke. So, what

I want you to listen to that is so incredible is the conviction he had despite these circumstances, which he eventually successfully followed through on. Enjoy.

on. Enjoy.

So, thinkerd doers are really, really special. Um, so there are thinkers

special. Um, so there are thinkers there are doers, and there are thinkerdoers. Um

thinkerdoers. Um >> can, you, give, a, prominent, example, in history?

>> Uh,, well,, I, mean,, Steve, Jobs,, I'm literally hearing his voice right now in my head. He he talked about this like

my head. He he talked about this like the great he he literally has a line. He

says, "The great thinkers were also the great doers." Like Da Vinci, um, you

great doers." Like Da Vinci, um, you know, mixed his own paints. When you're

dealing with problems of theory and problems of application, both your application and your theory, uh, end up at a feedback cycle and and they both

get better. Um and and so in the same

get better. Um and and so in the same way let's use these two terms Dao and AON to and and and use them to refer to

different things. So like so AON uh you

different things. So like so AON uh you know is the realm of theory and DAO you might may call the the realm of um of uh

of application. I as a as a poet or a

of application. I as a as a poet or a writer, right, I can just like literally sit in a room in an ivory tower and just like write poetry, right?

>> Um, but, it's, not, until, I, like, go, out, into the world into messy reality uh and get my heart broken or see a beautiful landscape or you know deal with with what is

>> in, time, and, space, that, the, really beautiful stuff comes comes out. So um

uh there's there's infinite depth both up and down. So the you know Raf Raphael's

and down. So the you know Raf Raphael's painting of the school of Athens you know Plato's pointing up uh and Aristotle's pointing down you know almost think like you know up is AON down is doubt you know the the there is

there's depth in everything and there's depth in reality. So, when an entrepreneur is trying to build a company and you go from like here's here's an example of a an idea, you know, I'm talking about this idea with

someone who's thinking of starting a company um to build an insights database. Okay

database. Okay >> so, that's, a, cool, idea., Um, but, it's, only until she starts working through the question where you get freaking stumped. You're

like, "Oh my god, this is hard. No

wonder it doesn't exist." It's only it's only when you actually start to >> wrestle, with, the, depth, of, reality >> um, that, you, uh, actually, realize, a, lot, of

the theoretical problems. So um you know this an example like with a microscope >> you, know, the, you, can, zoom, in, and, zoom, in and zoom in and zoom in. If you have more and more powerful microscopes you

can zoom in almost infinitely. Right.

>> Right., Um, and, there's, just, so, much depth. In the same way, anyone who's

depth. In the same way, anyone who's working with applied problems, whether you're an entrepreneur, you perceive spaces where theoretical insights like

might be useful, but you wouldn't have even gotten to the problem if you hadn't zoomed in.

>> H, that's, very, curious., I, share, a, similar view that uh because I think where we diverge, I think our aim is very similar as well as uh you know potentially the

skill set. But I think for me, and I'm

skill set. But I think for me, and I'm I'm 20 right now, so this is going to change drastically. I feel like for me

change drastically. I feel like for me I would want to go into into industry for about like 20 or 30 years, but I think that my biggest probably leverage will be the books I write generating insight from that.

>> Mhm.

>> So, I'm, not, fully, disagreeing, with, you, but but I wonder how you explain that most thinkers or or rather the the highest leverage opportunities in in history seem seem to be thinkers, right?

Mhm.

>> Like, like >> like, for, example, lock, you, know influenced the doers the Jeffersons that created America >> and, that, sort, of, percolated, everywhere and his ideas of of pursuit of life liberty and

>> uh, private, property, in, his, case happiness in America's case >> sort, of, proliferated, to, to, what, two, 300 years of of prosperity.

>> Yeah., If, there, was, no, lock, was, necessary but after there was lock Jefferson was nec necessary. So, so that's

nec necessary. So, so that's >> if, if, you're, in, the, time >> if, you're, in, the, time, of, Jefferson, being the next lock wasn't, you know was of no relevance because it's not not

even clear whether Lock's ideas are practical, >> right?

>> Um,, but, it's, only, after, you, show, that Lock's you work out the the application problems, you show that Lock's ideas are actually relevant um by creating a

constitution and founding a country and operating a government based on those ideas. um where you work out all the

ideas. um where you work out all the problems in reality, you incarnate the idea. Um in other words, where when you

idea. Um in other words, where when you connect Dao and a aon um it's it's only then that that the opportunity for the next theorist arises.

>> Um >> that's, very, interesting.

>> Yeah.

>> A, lot, of, companies, fails, because, uh founders make it sort of glorious.

>> Oh,, I, mean, the, day-to-day, reality, of, it is horrible. Uh I I gave a talk at

is horrible. Uh I I gave a talk at Princeton last week and I basically told them uh I reminded them of that scene in Lord of the Rings where you know hobbits are not supposed to leave the Shire and

then Gandalf comes and invites Bilbo on an adventure and he doesn't want to go but he eventually goes and it's like no Bilbo should not have left the Shire.

Like if you have a wizard coming knocking at your door inviting you to go on an adventure and go slay dragons like say no and stay at home. Like it's like you know basically entrepreneurship is like a radioactive war zone. and just

like it's a great way to like ruin your career, ruin yourself. You've lived your whole life in a walled garden and then you go out into the jungle and the problem is you might think that you can

always go back to the garden, worst case scenario, but by the time you come back you've become a wild animal.

>> So,, you, can't, actually, go, back, to, the garden.

>> Why, not?, Because, you're, so, because, you'd assume the wild animal will be really effective in the in the garden that you have this killer instinct that other people aren't guarding against.

If you if you set an entrepreneur loose in a company, uh they will probably get shot. You know, the corporate equivalent

shot. You know, the corporate equivalent of shot, you know, they get put down. Um

because the jungle has its limits, but you can only know them by probing them.

And so you respect >> the, forces, of, nature,, but >> you, don't, respect, the, forces, of hierarchy the same way you respect the force of nature. So in order to operate

within an organization, you have to you have to treat somebody else's opinion as being equally valid as a market force.

>> Um, so, like, if, your, boss, thinks, it's, not a good idea, you have to take that as like just as serious as like um a major client thinking it's not a good idea.

Um, and that's for an entrepreneur that's like such a you know, it's a rewiring that they're just normally not capable of.

>> Yeah., It's, it's, interesting, because, you said to me, try out the society's values and I hope I hope you can abide by them and I hope that you'll be able to to to

delve into that illusion and only if you can't should you come out. And it's also ties into this Buddhist meditation right? Because what what a Buddhist tell

right? Because what what a Buddhist tell future meditator is like you know what it's best to not start >> but, if, you, started, already, you, can't stop.

>> So, so, so, is, there, a >> I'm, so, so, glad, I, gave, you, that, advice., I

think that's actually the right advice.

>> Right., I, think, it, might, have, been, too late already.

>> Are, you, saying, that, given, if, you, were, in the Princeton students shoes you would have taken your advice or you like you yourself would have chosen not to go this route? It's a flawed question um

this route? It's a flawed question um because um I I cannot >> I, do, not, know, who, I, would, have, been, if, I hadn't >> okay

>> hadn't, hadn't, become, an, entrepreneur, um if I hadn't taken the risk. Um and so um Achilles in in in Homer um is offered a

choice between a long happy life >> um, uh, where, he, you, know, is, buried, in, his old age with his family and his and you know but not not a glorious life. Um and

a and and the other path is a life where he dies young but dies in a blaze of glory to be remembered forever. Um full

of pain and suffering and he chooses the short life.

>> Um, and, I, think, it's, a, similar, choice.

It's really similar choice um between being being an entrepreneur and and and not being an entrepreneur. If you're a Princeton student, um you can go work at

uh Goldman Sachs or um BCG or you know any any finance or consulting firm and you start out making 160k a year. Um you

know within a decade you'll be making 360 plus. You know over the course of

360 plus. You know over the course of your career you're going to make millions um and uh more than enough to live well. You're not going to work very

live well. You're not going to work very hard. um you're gonna have plenty of

hard. um you're gonna have plenty of time to go on vacations and um build a family and basically all of your needs will be met

and so and you'll have prestige and it's like why wouldn't you do it and the only reason not to do it is is because you

believe that is basically a a a deep need to exist as an individual. Um, so

>> so, you're, fundamentally, replaceable, at all these companies.

>> It's, it's, like, love, for, you,, isn't, it?

>> Yeah., Yeah,, it, is., There's, like, maybe, 10 people at the top um that are like truly irreplaceable or maybe it's 20 or 30 people at the top. Maybe it's 50 people at the top, but it's a tiny tiny tiny

fraction.

>> Yeah,, it's, super, interesting., Going, back a bit to the Achilles stories, it kind of reminds me of the myth of at the end of Plato's Republic. And so this guy is choosing his next life right at the at

the end of his his current one. And he

sees Adysius. And this guy had everything. He had women, he had

everything. He had women, he had intellect, he had wisdom, he was a king.

>> And, he, chose, the, the, the, life, of, a regular farmer, which is almost the the opposite of the Achilles round. So my

question to you is, what did you want to convey? And what does that say about

convey? And what does that say about your choice when you told the Princeton students to sort of stay in or stay out of the jungle? It's definitely not a

It's definitely not rejecting your your own your own decisions, but but it's a form of it's a form of warning.

>> Yes., Yes., I, I, think, that, um, you, asked the question about glamour um or glory.

Um if there is a glory in entrepreneurship, it's it's a glory that comes through suffering and sacrifice.

If there's a glamour, it's the glamour of unglamor. It's, you know, it's um you

of unglamor. It's, you know, it's um you sitting at a coffee shop um uh with a laptop and an internet connection and

and an idea and believing that someday this is going to be a company with hundreds of people in it and and you know huge valuation and it's going to

work and then day after day after day after day after day continuing to build even though you go home at night and there are many times where

you have an idea like we had the idea of like a digital assembly line.

>> Um, a, really, easy, relatively, simple, idea, you know, it's like easy to understand but then when you actually work through the the design challenges

you end up literally wanting to bang your head against a wall. They they're

so complicated. Um like how do you uh route um work and and know which agent is online who knows how to do that process? Like even coming up with a

process? Like even coming up with a concept of a process like how do you build process architecture that accord you know that accommodates any kind of repetitive digital work within a um

decision tree. Um like what are the

decision tree. Um like what are the basic logic formats? Oh it's loops, it's conditionals. You know how do you

conditionals. You know how do you represent that? There's like all these

represent that? There's like all these there's so much depth, right? This the

Dow, you know, it's like it's deeper than you think. You keep going deeper and deeper. there's more there and

and deeper. there's more there and you're like you eventually um wonder if you're ever going to get to the bottom of it and if it you'll ever be able to solve this giant design challenge and

you're sitting there in a coffee shop and you realize I am completely delusional >> like, um, you, I, mentioned, Don, Kiote, at, the la at the end of the last podcast like

um you know Kiote uh >> believe, you, know, would, chase, a, windmill thinking it was like a dragon you know it's like he like was totally living like you know when you see little little

um you know 5-year-old boys who think that they're Jedi Knights, you know running around like waving a stick and they think it's a lightsaber.

>> Yeah,, that, was, me.

>> That, was, me,, too., Like,, and, that's basically what an entrepreneur is. Like

an entrepreneur is that delusional. Um

and um and they they they basically are believe that they can solve like it's almost like, you know, physicists believing that they can solve like a fundamental problem in the universe. uh

and you know understanding like understanding the laws of of gravity you know it's like that kind of it's the business equivalent of that >> but, but, but, you're, fundamentally, not

like delus you only seem delusional like you you have to you have to believe that you yourself has some sort of unique epistemic authority to to epistemic

business authority right to sort of see a trend that others aren't seeing because if you if you truly if you truly thought this thing had a 1% chance of succeeding you don't want to work on it I a bet a lot of money that you actually

think there's a pretty good chance of of it succeeding.

>> Couple, things., Napoleon, crowned, himself king, right? So an entrep every

king, right? So an entrep every entrepreneur is Napoleonic. Every

entrepreneur crowns themselves king.

They they give the they deputize themselves. They give themselves the

themselves. They give themselves the authority. And this is one of the

authority. And this is one of the reasons why we don't have enough female entrepreneurs.

You know, men >> are, overconfident.

men men um I think women women are more grounded in reality and men like are more e easier for us to delude ourselves that we actually know what we're doing but it becomes a self-fulfilling

prophecy um so so there's that >> or, a, small, minority, becomes, most, people mo most people are like that just just just actually just fail a small percent of that >> they, just, small, percentage, of, that

succeed yes that's right um secondly it's a quantum event so I knew that my idea was a beautiful idea and it could work >> in, theory., Um,, but, I, knew, that, unless, I

made it work there. I basically I don't believe in

there. I basically I don't believe in Marxist inevitability. Like I don't

Marxist inevitability. Like I don't believe that like if you don't make it work, somebody else will.

>> Um,, and, there, are, plenty, of, examples, of this in history like um the uh the steam engine um uh could have been invented in

first century AD uh in Alexandria Egypt. They they built a prototype steam

Egypt. They they built a prototype steam engine. They just couldn't think of like

engine. They just couldn't think of like what to do with it. Um, really? And uh

really? Wow.

>> Yeah., And,, and, so,, so,, so, steam, power was discovered, but, you know, the industrial revolution could have happened 1700 years, you know, 17 centuries before it did. Oops. You know

you could just see it from your friend's perspective. If your friend, you think

perspective. If your friend, you think he's delusional, he's like trying to start a company. He's trying to solve some major problem >> and, then, he, succeeds, and, you, go, like, "Huh, turns out he wasn't delusional."

>> And, if, he, fails,, it's, like, "Yep,, I, knew he was delusional." You know it it's that's what I mean it's quantum >> but, for, someone, who, believes, objective truth as you do right >> and, there's, this, really, interesting, stat which is uh like most great

entrepreneurs the ideas they work out usually end up succeeding it's just not necessarily they it's sometimes what they, who, who who, who, put, forth, who, do, it it might be a timing problem.

>> So, if, invisible, doesn't, work, but, 5, years later someone else creates a sort of digital assembly line of assistants that do work >> then, you, are, still, right, even, though, you

failed. So, so this is the question of

failed. So, so this is the question of what is the idea? Indivisible is

composite. It's made up of a bunch of different ideas like there's the idea of synthetic intelligence which is a bot powered by humans like human plus machine. There's the idea of the digital

machine. There's the idea of the digital assembly line coordinating humans. Um

you know there's this robotic process automation idea of like automating the work over time. There's I mean there's like lots of different ideas, right? So

um there's the idea of the partnership um you know structure that we've established. There's there's I could go

established. There's there's I could go through it. there's there's any any one

through it. there's there's any any one company there's like >> many, many many, small, ideas, that, compose the big idea capital and so

>> uh, it's, just, a, question, of, like, at, what level of zoom so if invisible failed >> um, it's, like, saying, fster, or, the, social networks that weren't Facebook like

MySpace etc like they had the right idea but they failed but they didn't have the right idea like at a at one level of Zoom they had the right idea But at a deeper level idea like they got the

profile wrong, they got the wall wrong they got the way they handle albums wrong, they got the way they handle they got the like something in their server architecture wrong. They got a bunch of

architecture wrong. They got a bunch of things wrong, right? Um so there's no real consolation prize. Um

like you those people aren't feeling really good about themselves right now right?

>> They're, not, like, I, knew, I, was, right.

>> Right.

>> If, anything,, they, feel, probably, worse.

>> They, feel, so, much, worse., They, feel, like idiots. Um because they they it's almost

idiots. Um because they they it's almost like they they had the inspiration to do it. They got so close. They got second

it. They got so close. They got second place but but no medal.

>> Yeah., Yeah., Exactly.

>> But, if, I, if, I, uh, know, you, well, enough from this hour and a half, two hours now of conversation, I bet even if Invisible failed, you'd be going out your next company in in the next year, you're like

this like uh business equivalent of Beethoven. Like you're going like half

Beethoven. Like you're going like half death and you're still still out there trying to compose. Am I right?

to compose. Am I right?

>> Uh,, thank, you., Um,, and, I, I, think, you're wrong.

>> Interesting.

>> Um,, so, that, was, true., That, that, has, been true of my my life up until now, but I wonder if it is still true.

>> Interesting., But, you, can't, go, back, to the walled garden, right?

>> No,, I, can't, go, back, to, the, walled garden. Um, so Nietze has this line.

garden. Um, so Nietze has this line.

>> Um,, I, need, to, look, it, up., It's, the, you can't go back line, you know. Um

>> Dante, also, has, a, line,, abandon, hope, all ye who enter here. Um but but Nichzche's line I think is better like um something about you can't go back to the pity of men. Um

men. Um >> uh >> so, so, to, answer, the, question, I, there's an energy you have in your early 20s

which is an unconquerable energy. You

you're you're the um unstoppable force.

>> Uh, I, felt, like, a, stallion, you, know, just like so much energy to run. Um, and it's funny. I there are people working for me

funny. I there are people working for me now that have the energy I had in my early 20s and they're in their early to mid20s and they're like unbroken. It's

like the unbroken Appalonian spirit. But

then you you fail and you get taught humility and you're you're broken in the process. So you trade strength for

process. So you trade strength for experience. Like you you give up some

experience. Like you you give up some some of your strength.

um you you burn you go through a burnout cycle. Um you know the un unstoppable

cycle. Um you know the un unstoppable force meets the immovable object and you're like no there's some some battles I don't want to fight. Um you become more shrewd. You're like hm you start to

more shrewd. You're like hm you start to see all the things aren't going to work.

You become more paranoid. Um so instead of having the mentality of like we're going to succeed no matter what like like this is like >> you, know, uh, ordained, by, God, that, we, will succeed you know this like felt like

incred Yeah. I was just exactly this

incred Yeah. I was just exactly this like incredible belief that it would work. Um which is by the way an

work. Um which is by the way an amazingly attractive force like um you know people can rally behind that that conviction that that um manifestation

>> power, that, that, uh, I'm, trying, to, find the right words but it's it's a real it's a whole energy of of manifesting.

Um and when you when you lose that and you're humbled and you realize that you could be wrong and you start to start to question yourself deeply, start to

question all of your start to question your strategy, start to question your ideas, you start to see all the ways in which you could fail.

>> Um,, you, can, actually, be, immobilized um or you know sort of paralyzed by it.

So the right thing is obviously to come to some balance of the two to recover some of your lost confidence and

optimism and strength and to um to to to retain a certain certain humility and paranoia and skepticism and and and so if you have

that person at the top who's balanced um then you can hire a bunch of people beneath you who are like ebulent who are just like you know warrior charge to

take over the world people um because you can keep them in check um you know the two two characters in in history that you know leader archetypes Pericles

and Aliabites you know in Thusidities um history of the Pelpeneisian war Pericles you know when the people were um uh overconfident he would sober them when

they were depressed he would build them up he'd make them confident um also you know like you just sort of if people were feeling one way he would encourage them to feel that way. Um, I think you

want the Pericles and the leader and you want the Alcubides and all the people underneath.

>> Um, you asked a question, I dropped it.

>> I, think, the, question, was like fundamentally it is glory that's that's motivating you.

>> Me?

>> Yeah.

>> Um,, in, the, glory, not, fame., Glory, in, the Greek sense of the word Arista. Um so

>> um, so, Arista, is, a, beautiful, concept., Um

you can think of Achilles in his moment of of you know dying in battle. Um it's

your final charge. It's you know the finest moments of a hero. Um and these are the moments where you you transcend.

You might say these are the moments in which you are you become an individual.

>> You, could, also, say, these, are, the, moments in which you transcend your individuality uh and and the gods come through you you know um you uh you do something

beautiful. Um so like whe you know the

beautiful. Um so like whe you know the painter um painting the masterpiece you know that um the uh the underlying idea in Arista or even in this concept of

glory is expression. Um, so if you've ever had that feeling like there's sand in your oyster, you know, there's there's like there's something inside of

you that's dying to get out. Um

that is in my mind not not a van not a not a narcissism or vanity you know expressing expression in that sense is

trying to do something that matters in eternity you know the the Russell Crow line in Gladiator you know like um what we do in life echoes in eternity it's

that um it's like trying to do something that is heroic Um, I think that that, you know, as you mentioned, like our society is incredibly jaded

>> right?

>> Um,, and, we, live, in, an, age, of celebrities, not heroes.

>> Um,, and, uh, >> as, a, matter, of, fact,, like, the, celebrity should be somewhat disgusting to the hero. Um, it's like the false hero. Um

hero. Um, it's like the false hero. Um

>> and, uh,, so, I, I, I, look, at, Instagram, with like extraordinary disgust. Um uh

cuz it's these false idols, right? It's

it's why Plato hated poetry. It's

because you you you start imitating people who are not good who but who appear to be good and that you take on these like false virtues.

>> Yes., I, think, you, should, be, incredibly attentive to what what you worship. Um

and and so this is this is an example of I I love religion for atheists, you know. I love I love showing

know. I love I love showing >> is, that, a, book, or >> No,, no,, it's, just, a, concept,, you, know, just showing atheists how these religious ideas are so relevant even if

you don't believe in God at all. Um so

idolatry is like an incredibly important concept as as a sin, you know, like um so when you a way to put it in is in in

economic terms is like mispricing of value or mispricing of risk. So like

um so if you >> if, you, overvalue uh a type of person in society >> um, you're, going, to, get, more, of, that, type

of person and less of everything else.

Um and so a society can and and all of that person's like all of that archetypes blind spots will just be

compounded. So, um if you overvalue like

compounded. So, um if you overvalue like um Instagram influencers who just like go around showcasing their lifestyle and thinking that like they're like leading the world towards like some

higher purpose, but in reality they're just like putting on their makeup or like going to parties that that spreads and like you just get more and more of

it. Um and it's really dangerous. uh

it. Um and it's really dangerous. uh

like this is the you know the idea with idolatry was that if you had the wrong gods, if you had the wrong idols, your society, your civilization would become weak and it would eventually collapse

um because of that weakness. If you look at our world today, you look at Hollywood, you look at uclic culture you you generally perceive there's

something some something not healthy there's something there's something off something really wrong. Um, and and I think that's

a good conversation to have would be like what would health look like?

I think one one ought to be apocalyptic about one's companies, you know, um if you're building a a company with exponential expectations, you know, if you're trying to build a billion dollar

company, um something that's going to be an independent company, uh which by the way, the entire venture capital industry is is built on that absurd

>> premise., And, um, and, so, the, so, it's

>> premise., And, um, and, so, the, so, it's companies are tied up with these questions of value like what what are the biggest problems in society? What

are the biggest problems in civilization? Um and uh and how can you

civilization? Um and uh and how can you solve them? Uh and then how can you

solve them? Uh and then how can you capture some of the value that you create um in a defensible way. Um so so yes you have to you know just just even

the process of being being a entrepreneur with venture scale ambition you you almost are taking a um a view from Mount Olympus you're like

looking down on the world and saying like you know interesting interesting civilization we have here what are the problems um and uh and if you don't if you don't believe that your company is solving the most important problem in

the world that's probably not the big idea yet you that they talk about founder product fit um or founder problem fit, you know, like when you're when you're really obsessed with what

you're doing. Um you you take on like a

you're doing. Um you you take on like a messianic complex, you know, when you start a company, when all your friends go to work at Goldman Sachs or whatever

um you just have less money um to pay for things. And um you have an a big

for things. And um you have an a big idea that to you is almost like a religious object. It's very sacred. Your

religious object. It's very sacred. Your

idea the the relationship between an entrepreneur and his idea is very very special. And I think that's maybe maybe

special. And I think that's maybe maybe that's unique to me and my romanticism.

A lot of entrepreneurs are quite pragmatic. But uh as an entrepreneur

pragmatic. But uh as an entrepreneur when you um when you realize how much competition there is to raise money and how difficult it is to be profitable you start walking around and looking at

every pizza parlor and going, "Oh my god, every business is a miracle." Like

how did how did anyone make anything profitable or anything that worked or anything that scaled? Um and you start to get really desperate. Everyone else

is in a walled garden and you're in the jungle. And so, um, you start to try

jungle. And so, um, you start to try things that other people aren't willing to try, uh, because you you realize that conventional,

um, just doing f playing by the rules or performing at a mediocre level will not work. Like, you're not going to raise a

work. Like, you're not going to raise a series A round by checking a bunch of boxes um or by, you know, doing what other people think you're supposed to do. And the other thing about it is that

do. And the other thing about it is that you know um every startup is a contrarian exercise. You're basically

contrarian exercise. You're basically saying the market is wrong otherwise this would already exist.

>> So, I'm, I'm, telling, the, world, that, it's wrong. Um because if you valued the

wrong. Um because if you valued the things that I value and you saw what I saw and you had my insight, you would have created this already. Um so you're already getting in the practice of disagreeing with the world. But then the

weird thing is you have to also get the world to agree with you, right? Um

because after you create the thing that everyone should have built, you have to get them to buy it. Um so you're in a weird it's like puts you in a very weird relationship with society where you're

disagreeing with society, but you're trying to get society to agree with you.

>> My, favorite, book, is, actually, th's, once and future king. And uh it's it's a retelling of the story of King Arthur.

>> And, it, was, written, during, and, shortly after World War II. And th White uses Arthur to tell a story about civilization. So Arthur comes into a

civilization. So Arthur comes into a world in which might makes right.

Hobbesian world. And he invents the idea of chivalry. And he says, "Okay, we're

of chivalry. And he says, "Okay, we're going to put might in service of right."

And he gets all the knights to sort of kick out all the brutes um you know the the barbarians that are you know raping

women and ransacking villages and they they kick the dragons out and they free the land and everything's great and then it collapses because the knights don't have any bad guys to fight. So they

start fighting each each other and they start sleeping with each other's wives and they start stealing from each other.

So, he, says, shoot, we're, going to, invent competitions. And so he invents jousting

competitions. And so he invents jousting and tournaments and this keeps them going for a while until they get jealous of each other and a huge hierarchy forms and he says, "Damn it, we need something

to do with this like male energy, this aggressive energy. So we're going to

aggressive energy. So we're going to invent religion and go on a crusade for the quest for the Holy Grail." So they go look for the Holy Grail and they can't find it. Uh and a whole generation

is, wiped, out,, but, at least,, you, know, he's kicked the can down the road. Um

and then he's like, "This new generation of kids now wants to be even more glorious than their fathers. Damn it. I

need to come up with something for them to do, but I'm out of ideas. So, we're

going to do uh right for its own sake."

So, instead of might in service of right, uh, or, you know, um >> just, might, >> um,, uh,, you, know,, um,, sort, of, might, in

service of excellence, competition, or might in service of God. We're going to do right for its own sake. um and he invents civil law and he comes up with this whole code of law sort of

Napoleonic moment uh and then somebody finds loopholes and starts to take over the whole kingdom. So Morrid, his bastard son, ends up discovering that Lancelot is sleeping with Gwy. And so he

forces King Arthur to attack his best friend and creates a civil war and uses that civil war to create a real civil war and overthrow the kingdom in this m final battle.

And Arthur has a premonition he's going to die the next day. Um, and be dealt a mortal wound. And Merlin comes back

mortal wound. And Merlin comes back because he's abandoned Arthur most of his life. Um, just arrives out of

his life. Um, just arrives out of nowhere and start Merlin is this weird creature going backwards in time. And he

comes to tell Arthur the story of civilization from the point of view of the future. And so Merlin tells Arthur

the future. And so Merlin tells Arthur about the communists and the Nazis and the capitalists and, you know, all these. He says, 'Arthur, you're part of

these. He says, 'Arthur, you're part of a long story in which um you know, a lot of people over many thousands of years have been trying to solve this problem

of human nature, this problem of um this deep corruption, this the original sin but your story's not over. Like someday

you'll be re resurrected >> the, once, and, future, king, >> and, you, will, um, solve, the, problem, uh, of might. And so the next day when he's

might. And so the next day when he's wounded, they cast him out into the lake. The lady of the lake takes him. He

lake. The lady of the lake takes him. He

shrouded in mist and he disappears. And

the legend has it that he'll return someday to finish what he started.

Why am I so attracted to this book?

Because the second coming nature is is Jesus.

Yeah. But why? Why do I care? So I mean why is that attractive? Because in a certain way you see yourself as as a King Arthur.

>> Yeah., But, why?, So, it's, just, selfandment.

No, because without um uh because you're doing the you think you're doing the will of the of the of Aon.

>> Yeah,, there's, truth, in, that., Yep., But, wh why why do I why does have power over me >> because, you're, tranquilizing, yourself with it. you're tranquilizing yourself

with it. you're tranquilizing yourself with it because if you if you if you don't if you're not in that quote unquote myth as you say >> then, you're, open, to, this, neilistic, world

filled with void of meaninglessness.

Yeah, I think that's true. I think um also uh I believe in this myth because it in to some extent actually helps explain the world.

>> Um, interesting., So,, so, myths,, myths don't just help you escape reality they help you deal with it.

>> Um,, they, help, you, understand, it.

Otherwise, they wouldn't they wouldn't be believable. They need to be

be believable. They need to be believable. Um, and for the point you

believable. Um, and for the point you mentioned in Plato's Republic, for myth to be really good, like you nobody can believe that they created it, otherwise

they'll their their hypocrisy will be found out. It's it's too it's too hard

found out. It's it's too it's too hard to disclose a secret like that. So I

think the people that are really effective at creating myths totally believe the myths that they're creating.

>> So, the, question, is, where, do, they, come from?

>> Right.

>> Um >> and, obviously, in, your, worldview, it's it's very clear where they come from >> right?, So, but, why, do, I, think, this

>> right?, So, but, why, do, I, think, this actually matches reality? I think u this problem that King Arthur is trying to solve. He's playing whack-a-ole, right?

solve. He's playing whack-a-ole, right?

>> Um, is, um, is, a, problem, we, still, see, today in human civilization. And it's it's very hard to believe that humans aren't going to kill each other. Like we're

you know, we're still living in a sort of cold war. We're not going to we're not going to nuke each other. Um it's

very hard to um it's very hard to stay optimistic and think about 100 years from now like what what the world is going to be like and um and and and whether I realistically

as an individual can do anything about it. M

it. M >> um, but, um, when, you, listen, to, that, story, you say, "Okay, maybe maybe I can do something. Uh maybe I don't understand

something. Uh maybe I don't understand the big picture. Uh but maybe this is all going somewhere." Um and uh and so you you you mentioned that I'm very

kihotic.

>> Very, very, um, very, like, much, like donkeyote, delusional heroism you called it, you know. And I think that like Donkeyote is very much like the hero

archetype um of the modern age because this is a this is a time when there's no more knights.

>> Um, there, are, no, more, King, Arthurs, in, the realm. There are very few people who

realm. There are very few people who believe in nobility. Um this is a very industrialized age like we don't have knights anymore. We have armies with

knights anymore. We have armies with guns. Um so to to conceive of yourself

guns. Um so to to conceive of yourself as a hero um is very odd >> right?, But, I, think, it's, like, incredibly

>> right?, But, I, think, it's, like, incredibly necessary if you're going to do meaningful work to believe that the work you're doing is meaningful. And uh and so these myths are very very helpful if you um uh

>> channel, them, correctly.

>> If, you, channel, them, correctly., Yeah.

>> Not, assuming, that, the, story, of, Abraham and Isaac matters for any religious reasons. Why does the story matter? Um

reasons. Why does the story matter? Um

so again, what is the story in the Bible? Uh Abraham is given a divine

Bible? Uh Abraham is given a divine promise that through his son Isaac all the nations of the world will be

blessed. He loves his son. His son not

blessed. He loves his son. His son not only represents his son but his son represents the meaning of his existence

um his legacy.

And then so he's given this promise and then plot twist, he is given a command to kill his son. So the first thing is that this is immoral from an

ethical point of view. Um it's horrific.

Um aside from the fact it's horrific, it is the opposite of what he wants. It is

not only an atrocity, it's an atrocity against his incentives. And there isn't a reason provided

other than that God said so. Um and

somehow he has the insert new word that is problematic faith. He has this he has this thing

faith. He has this he has this thing this quality of being this trait that is yet to be defined. It's called

faith that allows him to do it to go forward with it and kill the thing he loves to get what

he wants. A miracle occurs. his hand is

he wants. A miracle occurs. his hand is stopped in the act of killing his son by an angel and a ram appears in the bush and he's told to sacrifice the ram in

the in the place of his son and uh and so the and then the prophecy is fulfilled. Um he um Isaac survives and

fulfilled. Um he um Isaac survives and the story goes on and and the promise is is upheld. This is this is a very

is upheld. This is this is a very pregnant religious story. There's like

so so many hermeneutics. There's so many interpretations. One of the reasons I

interpretations. One of the reasons I think it is profoundly important even if you even if you're totally secular and you're looking at it

is in the seeker's journey um which say precedes the hero's journey uh that we've been we've been out sketching during our whole discussion

tonight. The seeker continually the

tonight. The seeker continually the seeker even if the seeker begins from the most agnostic secular materialist position. Assume no God. Assume no true

position. Assume no God. Assume no true love. Assume no justice. Assume no

love. Assume no justice. Assume no

morality. Assume no aesthetics. There is

no there's no definition of you know abstract beauty. There's no none of

abstract beauty. There's no none of that.

You somehow end up at this place where your own existence, the meaning of the meaning and worth of your own existence ends up being dependent on

metaphysical a metaphysical shaped puzzle piece that you can't find. And so

in order to keep living um you have to take a leap um a leap of faith. uh you

have to assume that these things exist and that is a paradoxical state of being. So and it actually quite

being. So and it actually quite literally Jonathan is is my own point of view. Um my own point of view I don't

view. Um my own point of view I don't believe that God exists. I don't

certainly don't know that God exists. I

cannot prove that God exists. And uh nor will I assert that that God definitely exists.

Instead my position is closer to um Voltater's line. If God does not exist, we must invent him. Or or rather maybe a different way of putting it is I believe in God so much that even if God

doesn't exist, I believe in him. Um and

because it is a sin quanon, it is a it is a necessary leap um for everything else to matter.

>> There's, an, interesting, uh, I, just, heard this some people say that this what you're doing is called a belief in the belief of God.

>> Yeah.

>> That, you, don't, believe, in, God,, but, you believe that the belief in God is important.

>> Yeah,, that's, right., And, this, is, an onlogical argument. Um, and there are

onlogical argument. Um, and there are critiques of onlogical arguments, but I think that it's just inescapably important to make them. Um, this is a

root root debate. True love, I assert that true love exists because without it, life is meaningless. So, it is a scene quenon. I don't know that it

scene quenon. I don't know that it exists. I can't prove that it exists.

exists. I can't prove that it exists.

However, uh, I just can't get away from the fact that if it doesn't exist, life isn't worth living. Um uh justice justice is very important. If you can't

if you don't believe we we do not observe the world to be a just world.

The world is full of injustice. The

justice that does exist is in a kind kind of a historical miracle. Um and yet the injustice that exists is is uh

is vast. And as soon as you're in the

is vast. And as soon as you're in the position where you can do something that you feel is wrong, but you is in your incentives and there's no there's no punishment

and you feel like everyone else is taking advantage. It's almost like a run

taking advantage. It's almost like a run on the bank. It's like, you know, or tragedy of the commons. Everyone else is taking advantage of the fact that this is an unjust world. Why should I be the

sucker who gets screwed?

Um it only matters if you believe that that there is that in the end in the end of this story everyone gets what they deserve.

That imaginative literary religious leap is uh changes the way you behave every day.

Um so justice, true love, um goodness the existence of morality is obviously connected to justice. Beauty

aesthetics. This is a key one. Like uh

if you deny the existence of the beautiful, it becomes very hard to value things even subjectively because you're always asking yourself

well, why do I have this preference?

Ironically, the subjective is dependent on the objective. The the subjective is not a replacement for the objective. As

soon as you destroy the objective, you destroy the subjective too. You say

"Well, I have this preference for X and my preference is valid because why?"

Well, because I'm an individual. Well

you know, again, uh you know, you can always ask so so why why don't you replace preference X with preference Y with preference for

Z? And, and you know, it has no staying

Z? And, and you know, it has no staying power. It's arbitrary.

power. It's arbitrary.

Um, and then if it's based on the weight of force, the dignity of your individualism, this goes right back to the root, you know, you're you're replacing yourself

with God. You're rejecting that God

with God. You're rejecting that God exists. You're asserting that that the

exists. You're asserting that that the meaning the valuing of all is all nichian. You know, the valuing of all

nichian. You know, the valuing of all values is is mine, me, the individual.

Um, and yet for the very same reason that you've rejected God, you've also rejected yourself because now in a Darwinian world, you're there's no dignity of the individual. You're one of

7 billion people alive today. You're one

of 60 billion who's ever lived. You're

just a speck. You're a speck in the cosmos. So, we're going to replace this

cosmos. So, we're going to replace this objective values with like, you know who are you, Mr. Individual? Like

you're why does your arbitrary subjective whim that can change from m moment to moment matter? So even markets I would argue depend on the assumption

of the objective because markets create a meta object like a meta subjectivity or arguably a proxy objectivity.

Um but then why why are we all agreeing on something?, Going, back, to, the the, main

something?, Going, back, to, the the, main argument, the main threat of it. Um

uh there is an Abrahamic leap of faith.

There are all there's there's a faith corresponds to the category of questions that you can't answer and yet you you must uh you must take a stand like

you're forced into a stand taking. So

does true love exist? You can't answer it. You can't say it does or it doesn't.

it. You can't say it does or it doesn't.

Nobody can prove that it doesn't. Nobody

can prove that it does.

And yet you can't take no position.

In fact, there's from what what you were trying to say, there's only one position that you can really take without going to despair.

>> Yes., And, then, I, am, Yeah,, that, that, is right. I'm taking the step further that

right. I'm taking the step further that like yes, you can take there's two positions you can take. True love

exists, true love doesn't exist. Either

position there's no proof. There's no

final argument there. Um, it is a question of faith. So, it requires just as much faith to reject God as it does to to accept God. That's the irony of

it. We're all we're all we are all in

it. We're all we're all we are all in Abraham's paradox. That's kind of what

Abraham's paradox. That's kind of what Kirkagard is saying. All of us are in it. And if you choose

it. And if you choose to reject these ontological things these these metaphysical concepts

beauty, love, justice, goodness, this is Nichch's death of God argument, you know, like we destroyed the foundation and we can't replace it with another one and we are falling through space and

we're in the abyss. Um

>> so, then, therefore, now, that, we've, rescued these these concepts, if you will, from from the from the dreadening tentacles

of secularity. Uh can can you describe

of secularity. Uh can can you describe the this what the person is who who who works with these concepts a bit more?

Right. This is the hero I I assume. So a

hero is it sounds like is someone who >> Yeah.

>> obviously, has, a, lot, of, faith.

>> And, this, faith, might, not, be, clearly grounded by what we consider to be rational evidence. But could you could

rational evidence. But could you could you elaborate a bit more and maybe even given give personal examples of how that manifests?

>> Yes., So, so, so, we've, the, seeker, we've begun with the seeker's journey and we've come to the end of the seeker's journey and now we're at the beginning of the hero's journey. Um so the

seeker's journey begins with assuming nothing and an agnostic position um but um uh recognizing that his his

individuality itself um is dependent on on meaning coming from where coming and he like looks for meaning here and he looks for meaning there and he looks for meaning all these

places and he eventually um realizes that even even the closest thing which is romantic love is too shaky a foundation. So he needs to take this leap of faith and believe

in the divine, believe in goodness justice, beauty and god, which is sort of the abstraction of all that. That

puts him into this terrifying leap of faith. And then on the other that is

faith. And then on the other that is that is like the moment where he or she hits his knees and becomes a different person like becomes a different type of being.

So you move from the seeker to the hero.

Um the hero's journey um is is also problematic um because the hero is

living in a dark world. Faith faith does not remove doubt. It is not the um absence of doubt. The point made here is that the hero is always confronting the

shadow of the hero which is that you might be wrong. the antithesis of the night is uh Kiote who's an absurd fool

and uh and you see this again and again in stories. So you know the entrepreneur

in stories. So you know the entrepreneur um is either a is either delusional or pro prophetic um and entrepreneur as prophet is

actually like very much correct. Even

the investor is like either delusional or prophetic, right? You're you're

constantly taking arbitrage positions against the market where you're saying the market is wrong, I'm right, and you either prove that you're right or you're wrong. Um, and um we we romanticize

wrong. Um, and um we we romanticize heroes, but then we read these stories and it's like, oh man, I don't want to be that guy, you know? Like that's

that's the crazy guy, the hobo on the streets who's like everyone's like throwing he's like, you know, shouting you know, his prophecies and everyone's

laughing at him and throwing tomatoes at him and he's a crazy guy. Everyone is

having a good time and he's like spoiling the party. Um, don't want to be that guy. um until that guy's right and

that guy. um until that guy's right and like the enemy army shows up and the city's unprepared and and everyone realizes, "Holy crap, tell us what to

do." Um the fact that

do." Um the fact that you don't you're never going to know if you're right in this lifetime means that every day you're living with

the cost but not the reward. And you

constantly find yourself unhappy unhappy, unhappy. And and the

unhappy, unhappy. And and the compensation for that unhappiness, what is it? It's fulfillment. But that

is it? It's fulfillment. But that

fulfillment is on the foundation of a metaphysical leap of faith. It's it's on no found.

It's like you're you're you're standing on you're standing on a castle that's floating in the sky. You know what? If

the castle isn't floating on the sky you're standing on nothing and you're an idiot. Um and this is, you know, Don

idiot. Um and this is, you know, Don Kiote chasing windmills and thinking that they're dragons. It's the the shadow of the heroic is the shadow of

the heroic is just so so glaring. Um and

you you kind of become a crazy person.

You have to actually be crazy to be right there. I don't think there's a way

right there. I don't think there's a way around that. And I don't think in our in

around that. And I don't think in our in our cultural um understanding of the heroic, I don't think we've really confronted that. like

in, our, this, is, one, of the, things, that, I think is drifting off and incorrect about uh a lot of our hero movies uh recently whether it's the you know the

um Marvel yeah the Avengers movies >> um, you, know, they, it's, so, deep, and archetypal you can't fully get away from it. So some of the characters feel like

it. So some of the characters feel like they're going crazy, but they don't. It

is not really truly in your face of like, man, you know, like that character, the hero that is the hero must wonder if they're the villain

or wonder if or wonder if the villain even exists or like wonder, you know you have to have that.

I read a lot of books.

um instead of going to a normal high school, >> um, I, was, really, bored, and, I, I, went, to, uh I asked my parents to um uh to homeschool me and they ended up they

didn't want to do that. They they

thought that was a horrible idea. Um but

they somebody invited them to um a homeschooling convention and and uh I asked them to take me and they took me and there was this amazing

uh lecture given by Fritz Henriks and uh who I ended up becoming my dear Mr. H Mr. Henriks um and his um his business

partner who's now dead um Dr. Norm Lund was there. So Dr. Lund was an Oxford

was there. So Dr. Lund was an Oxford grad. Mr. H was a graduate of uh St.

grad. Mr. H was a graduate of uh St.

John's in Maryland. Um both have strong classics programs and they were internet internet entrepreneurs. They were teaching

entrepreneurs. They were teaching hundreds of students around the world on Skype um uh this 5-year course in the great books of Western civilization.

>> But, uh, you, know, you, had, to, start, when you were 12 years old and the first year you'd read the ancient Greeks, you'd read um Homer and Plato and Aristotle

and the next year you'd read the Romans.

um and uh retitus etc. And then then you'd read um uh the third year you read the scholast medieval scholastics. Uh

fourth year you'd read the you know a lot of the uh renaissance enlightenment authors and um and through the fifth year as well. Um and

>> and, you'd, read, the, read, the, whole, book um not little excerpts and there was no textbook. You had to read the actual

textbook. You had to read the actual original text the classics and then you'd you'd write essays and you'd listen to lectures and you'd debate the the subjects. and he built they built a

the subjects. and he built they built a whole community around it. It was

incredible. I got a better education in high school than I did in college. Um

>> they, taught, us, how, to, think., And, when you they they what's so interesting is when you do this kind of an education >> um, what, emerges, they, call, it, the, great

conversation.

>> Um, you, end, up, realizing, that, for, about 2,000 years um all of these authors have been responding to each other's thoughts. Totally. Um, and there are

thoughts. Totally. Um, and there are these epic debates that have been happening and you start to ask yourself in the biggest sense like what does it

mean? Like what if if history is a sign

mean? Like what if if history is a sign which direction is it pointing? Um, and

what does what does it mean to me? Like

okay, I've just spent five years reading some of the greatest excerpts in the history of human thought.

>> So, what, for, me,, Francis,, living, now?

like you know you start to ask questions like when am I like yeah I'm in you know at the time I was >> that's, a, very, interesting, I, like, I, like the way you frame that. Yeah

>> I, graduated, in, 2011,, but, I, think, I, I, I started in 2007 at Cornell. Um, and it's like, okay, for for me, Francis, in the year 2007, like when is 2007 in the in

the course of history, and what are the biggest problems in the world? Um, and

people who just read the news don't really have perspective. Um, um, and people who are who are basically doing any, other, subject., I'm, a, bit, of a subject snob. I actually think that like

subject snob. I actually think that like the liberal arts are are the most important thing. Like you can you can

important thing. Like you can you can study physics but if you can't put it in put it into perspective >> why, it, matters >> why, does, it, matter, yeah, um, so, um, people

ask me all the time like why did you become an entrepreneur um and there are a lot of reasons but I think that one of the reasons is that the natural

thing for a liberal arts graduate to do is to try to go make history like you study history then you try to go make history it's sounds so pretentious. Um, but that's I think the

pretentious. Um, but that's I think the idea. It's like an education for

idea. It's like an education for conquerors. Um, and I think Alexander

conquerors. Um, and I think Alexander the Great's a good example. You have

Socrates who taught Plato and Plato who taught Aristotle and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great, you know. Um, and

uh, there's an interesting not a particularly enviable role model.

Well, I I guess the point is like um ideas at some point have to become things.

>> Like, you, have, to, do, something, with, this freaking education. Like it it should it

freaking education. Like it it should it should compel you to action. Um so I I I started even before I became an entrepreneur, you know, this sort of rebellious side of my nature started to

surface because I I started to lose respect for my professors at Cornell.

First of all, I had already had a really what I consider still to be a better education in high school uh for more passionate people. And these professors

passionate people. And these professors were quite jaded. Um and you realize how they become, you know, increasingly specialized to the point of, you know studying useless things. Like if you're

spending, you know, a decade trying to determine whether um the number of ships at the battle of Salamis um in Thusidities was 300 ships in the

Athenian side or 400 ships in the Athenian side like you know that is an advancement of human knowledge but and maybe it's horrible for me to judge it but I just think what a waste of life

you know is that really really the best use of one of you know a great mind um or or are you actually a coward because you're hiding from um the real the the

real message of Thusidities uh the real message of of of your your broader discipline of history um and you could have done something with it that actually mattered.

Thanks for watching my interview. If you

like these kinds of discussions, I think you fit in great with the ecosystem we're building at Cosmos. We fund

research, incubate, and invest in AI startups and believe that philosophy is critical to building technology. Now, if

you want to join our ecosystem of philosopher builders, then you can find roles we're hiring for, events we're hosting, and other ways to get involved on jonathanb.com/cosmos.

on jonathanb.com/cosmos.

Thank you.