Scaling India's Payments: How PhonePe Built for 500-Million+ Users

Having a great co-founder who is complimentary in many ways but most importantly you share a very high level of trust is extremely important. So I've

known Sam now for 30 years longer than I've known my wife who I've known for 28 years. When when we are graduating in

years. When when we are graduating in the our slam book I had the next time I work with you again I'll lose my job and he had written saying the next time we work together I'll make sure that you

quit your job. So there's been the kind of three stages. There was the pre flip card startup that we had then Flipkart itself and then Phone Pay. Flipkart

experience interestingly was the toughest from a hiring perspective because it was at a phase when startups were not as sexy as obviously they are today. We built the payment stack on day

today. We built the payment stack on day one to cater to 10 million transactions a day because anyway in payments if we don't get to a number like that there was no reason to exist. You can't be a

consumer payments play in India trying to do less than that. But that's largely the principle that we operated in many ways for a lot of the stacks at uh phone pay to say that build for future scale

be future provision. Fortunately or

unfortunately startups raise money very fast. When you raise money and a VC

fast. When you raise money and a VC comes in the VC also says that you know what build it out like this hire this team. Nothing wrong in that but it kind

team. Nothing wrong in that but it kind of reduces these opportunities of learning from chaos.

A warm welcome to Rahul.

Gives me great pleasure to invite Rahul on the stage today. Uh all of definitely doesn't need any introduction. All of us have been using uh his products for a

while. But I must comment that often we

while. But I must comment that often we think of founders at as exceptionally generative and creative. And then when I look at Rahul's journey to go from

enterprise software I spent almost nine years from Edamo and Cisco that was a long journey and then the explosive period at Flipkart and then Phone Pay right you go from enterprise to creating

something at India scale and then literally at planet scale with phone pay with with almost 650 million close to 700 million users and um and like

literally hundreds of millions of transactions happening on a a daily basis. So this is uh kind of amazing and

basis. So this is uh kind of amazing and I just look at this journey in wonder, right? And um and that's almost the

right? And um and that's almost the starting point today, right? Let's talk

about your minus one a little, right? If

if I was to meet you uh in your early days, let's say college or uh when you were much younger, what kind of Rahulchari would have met and uh what do you uh what do you trace back the Rahuli

of today back to?

>> I don't know. I was uh I was considered a geek in college. Uh pretty much hold up studying most of the time. Uh did

actually I think engineering was great.

That's where I met uh Samir my uh co-founder. In fact uh uh fact of the

co-founder. In fact uh uh fact of the matter is that when we started uh uh working together in college itself we started working together he were I was

the general secretary he was heading all the cultural stuff we did our college fest together >> we were the first to actually in our college get sponsorship. Uh there was a

hu and cry from the senior batch that we had sold the festival. So we had a we had a festival in college and uh it was called space s sp a ce and uh uh we made

it close-up space. We got money from closeup and we thought everybody told us you sold out the college festival but that was our first uh uh time working together was a lot of fun. Uh always one

of the things that uh I think has kind of stayed constant is the fact that uh have always loved to build things. uh

even when I was in college uh I've always loved the fact that creating something that somebody else can either use or experience has been at the heart

of it. That would be the only thing but

of it. That would be the only thing but apart from that uh very normal nothing nothing really stands out to say that uh

exceptional or uh unexceptional in any which way. I often tell people that all

which way. I often tell people that all the good things in life come from compounding right whether it's relationships whether it's actually building a startup whether it's uh

friendship so you and Samir met at college and that journey of what we know 26 to longer >> 30 years >> 30 years >> 30 years I've known Samir now for

>> 30 yeah 30 years >> 30 years >> 1995 yeah >> and and you have together both of you have done a few minor ones right together right whether is mind 360 or

malls or uh I think even joining Flipkart together and then again leaving it and then starting Phone Pay. Uh so

talk to me uh and possibly talk to us about um some of these uh kind of pivotal decisions that you have taken right and uh all of us go

through these dark woods when we starting off are still wondering what we need to go through. what has been your mental model of uh disambiguating and

making things simpler in that stage? I

think uh uh so I think one of the things that is extremely important while I answer that part of the question is to actually I genuinely believe that it's uh one a really tough journey and a

really lonely journey if you're taking it all by yourself and having a great co-founder who is complimentary in many ways but most importantly has where you

share a very high level of uh uh trust uh almost blind trust I say almost because it's our responsibility as co-founders to hold hold the mirror to each other and that's needed uh very

very frequently but almost having the trust is extremely important because it gets through all the uh dark times much better. Uh so I've known Samir now for

better. Uh so I've known Samir now for 30 years longer than I've known my uh wife who I've known for 29 years 28 years because I met her also in college.

Uh very interesting anecdote when we so Samir and I were uh also uh uh doing our final year project together in engineering.

>> Oh wow.

>> And uh uh at that point uh he got us the project in uh LNT where his dad was working and that's where we're doing the project. But after that I saw him

project. But after that I saw him directly when we had to make the submission of the project. I did all the work in the middle. So when when we were graduating in the our slam book uh uh I

had written that uh the next time I work with you again I'll lose my job and he had written saying that the next time we work together I'll make sure that you quit your job.

>> Wow.

>> 10 years exactly from that is when we started our first startup uh together and he made me quit my job and that's how we started. But uh one we have extremely I think we have extremely

complimentary but over time because of the time that we spent with each other we've also become uh fairly interchangeable in our roles >> and that becomes extremely important

because I think just by what you hold as responsibilities when you divide and uh are trying to conquer each of us goes through our own difficult periods at uh

different times at that point for somebody else to step in and allow you to take that step back has been extremely important.

>> Secondly, I think having uh very very open conversations about uh uh what to do next and where our uh uh ambitions,

aspirations, energy lies is very important. Very simply in our first

important. Very simply in our first startup uh when we uh before Flipkart uh we had a startup in the media distribution space >> uh uh it was a short journey it was two

and a half years uh but it was a very tough one the media space is not an easy space we were trying to build streaming services then uh pivoted to a B2B this

was back in 2009 >> 2010 uh uh uh very difficult uh when even the smartphone didn't exist and

this was uh about uh the laptop, desktop and streaming there. We got rejected across the board from every possible VC even the smallest community there but we

were rejected there didn't see that much success but uh at the crossroads of uh those two and a half years we had an uh acquisition offer from Flipkart

>> and we had interestingly had a investment offer from Sony New York because we had done gone through the grind and done quite a bit and there was uh him trying to actually

uh continue that with uh saying that let's take the funding with from Sony and move forward and me saying that let's sell to Flipkart I kind of prevailed uh looks good uh looking back

but the true decision was that my level of energy and what I wanted to do at that point with that space uh and continuing independently versus how we can do it under the umbrella of Flipkart

I thought was much better. I told him very clearly and he supported me on that. So there are a lot of things that

that. So there are a lot of things that I think just having that pillar of support >> uh becomes extremely important. Outside

of that I think it is uh uh trying to find a way that you your purpose of why you started you have the clarity and you what you enjoy doing you keep doing a little because I think especially as

companies grow large and you start seeing a fair amount of what you call as success it comes with its own baggage >> and if you lose the joy of what you're doing that becomes the biggest issue

during the dark times. So if you actually find out small ways in which you can stay engaged for the larger purpose while everything from the administrative law to the uh money

raising to the regulatory environment all of that you'll be able to deal with that much better if you find that joy.

Yeah.

>> Interesting. Uh you know you mentioned that um you guys have been uh the bunch of complimentary parts of it. I also

believe that um once founders have been working together for a very long period of time they start talking like each other right and often uh people in the

team don't know who they are talking to right uh but I'm curious on what areas have you converged over a period of time and what areas you continue to remain a

little divergent and uh uh source of I would say interesting interactions.

Yeah, I think uh I think between us we end up completing each other's sentences also now very easy. It's a very uh common phenomenon and uh uh most of the time because you've been working for so

long that happens. Yeah.

>> Uh the areas that we have significantly converged is uh uh for example the focus on data

>> being a very very strong pillar of decision-m that uh any sort of argument that we have and agree to disagree but on the back of data is something that is

uh uh uh simply something that has helped us a lot and we've converged on that and where there isn't uh uh the luxury of having data.

>> We actually have a very simple framework that if it is in an area that >> irrespect of whether over the years I've built the muscle to be able to do good

at that it continues to be his decision that we move forward with. If it's an area that has been my pillar of strength and however good he's got on it over the period of time it becomes my decision.

Yes, having a simple framework like that makes it easier for us to actually agree to disagree. Even when we do that and

to disagree. Even when we do that and kind of move forward and the simple rule that we have is once we do that we never actually ever look back and say that should have done it like this I I was thinking like this at all because we

rely on the fact that that learning has happened for both of us and next time the decision of the same framework will be better right so yeah >> interesting you know you referred to scale uh but I think before scale

there's ground zero >> and at ground zero uh the company is essentially the people right because uh if you just have aspirations and your challengers, right? And this the kind of

challengers, right? And this the kind of people that you surround yourselves with is uh ends up determining the future of the company. So talk to us about um your

the company. So talk to us about um your approach of recruiting fellow believers and uh building the team in the early days, right? And how has that changed

days, right? And how has that changed over the years because you've had this journey over a few times, right? And I

would almost say even at Flipkart, there was almost like a building a set of believers around some of the things that was just getting built. So we'll be curious on how uh how you gone about doing it.

So uh so there's been the kind of three stages. There was the pre flipkart

stages. There was the pre flipkart >> uh startup that we had then flipkart itself and then phone pay. And each of it has been different. I think we uh

Phone Pay has frankly been the easiest uh because of the uh Flipkart experience that we had and the network that we had

built through that and the uh Flipkart experience interestingly was the toughest from a hiring perspective because it was at a phase when uh

startups were not as sexy as obviously they are today. uh but at the same time Flipkart was growing very rapidly and the need to hire and build teams out

rapidly at scale was extremely demanding right so uh that was in fact the toughest and the first startup was very different it was actually anybody who

would work with us so so uh very interestingly I think a good decision that we made was uh we had moved back from the US and we were looking for uh office space

>> and I attended a alumni meet at my college and uh uh the principal we met and they had just created a new building and they had space and we just said can we start here they were more than happy

they said yeah why don't you they rented the space to us uh so we so we got a lot of cheap labor we asked all the students to intern with us >> wow

>> and uh no but it's amazing it's uh many of them joined us obviously all of them joined us through flipkart many of them continue to actually work with us through phone pay uh senior leaders in

the company now doing really well. But I

think that frankly was the strategy uh uh choice was very very interesting.

Some of the people that we uh invested in significantly was where the hunger was strong. So I one of the folks who

was strong. So I one of the folks who was there with me at uh phone pay also he had uh an offer from IBM really wanted to work with us as a startup.

This was back in 2009 10 uh graduating from college at that point.

>> Mhm.

>> He I didn't know this. I didn't

encourage this behavior but uh he basically did not tell his parents that he is not joining IBM.

>> I really didn't care doing any background check or anything at that particular point. So for the year he was

particular point. So for the year he was working with us telling his parents that he's working at IBM >> now. Uh and he was phenomenal talent.

>> now. Uh and he was phenomenal talent.

The hunger was genuine about uh learning and uh building stuff out. Uh I had another person who I've spoken to their parents to convince them about the fact

that why if their son does not join Infosys it's not the end of the world that we'd still do good by them so that that phrase was very different right and

uh it was uh uh literally a beg borrow and steal to try to build a team to build something out back in 2009 2010 Flipkart uh uh was interesting a lot of

mistakes I think we built talent uh through money a and learned the hard way. That's not the best way to uh build talent. But what we did really really well is have a very

good sense of who are missionaries and how to actually reward missionaries. The

best way to actually reward missionaries is to actually put significant amount of accountability on them well ahead of their

years or experience or their uh demonstrated capability. So that worked

demonstrated capability. So that worked really well. I think that became a uh uh

really well. I think that became a uh uh I think inherently flipkart was that where they just didn't throw you into the deep end. They threw you into the deep end with a certain amount of

conviction that you would be able to swim, float and survive. And that sense that building that sort of sense of who's showing that potential to be able

to actually survive at the deep end and selecting that because if you do that blindly that's also a problem, right?

>> Phone pay uh frankly was the easiest. I

I think uh a lot of the people who had worked with us through the last two journeys uh in fact in a way uh we used to call it the

Gurvabsi program because uh people who had worked with us uh some of the best talent in Phone Pay today who had worked at Flipkart had quit and gone to other companies we just brought them back into

Phone Pay. uh uh when Binie acquired

Phone Pay. uh uh when Binie acquired Phone Pay very early also was one of the thinking that he wanted to use that to bring everybody back to Flipkart. Uh

>> kind of a recursive model at play.

>> Uh one of the one of the things though was uh all early talent at Phone Pay very simply was uh single degree of separation or uh uh one one one degree

away from this thing. So somebody that I have directly worked with or somebody who has worked with somebody that I've directly worked with. That was the uh uh simple philosophy for the first 100 plus

people. The other thing was everybody

people. The other thing was everybody that I brought in who I know were uh I have worked with and had confidence in uh uh we did get into a point at which we had an interview process but without

that in the early days we used to say that if somebody came in you had to get in two people that you have worked with that whose success is completely your responsibility and you get a complete pass on this interview and interviews

are 50/50 anyway.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. So don't do an interview, get somebody in, but you take responsibility for making sure that they deliver and are successful in the organization, happy in the organization. That worked

really well. Some of the really good talent who I had not worked with, now I know them very well, were people that they worked with who we knew. So that's

the first 150 uh core group that we built at Phone Pay, which continues today to be the uh torchbears. Yeah.

>> Amazing.

uh you know often uh often we talk about the mistakes and the near-death experiences being great teachers but I also personally believe that uh chaos and success are better teachers right

often the role is not acknowledged as much as it should be right uh and you know before phone's flipkart right which in some sense was a lot of chaos and

also a lot of success right uh maybe talk to us about a couple of instances that were kind of instrumental in the way uh you decided to architect

phone pay the all >> right and uh and the ways of uh possibly the rituals and the ways of working uh in there.

So uh many many examples I think uh I I've often said Flipkart is the university for startups right and uh it

it was this cycle of uh unbelievable compressed learning for us that I think is even difficult to replicate today because today there is enough m today I

think we've gotten to a point where there's enough material of how to build stuff there is enough uh fortunately Unfortunately, startups raise money very fast. Uh when you raise

money and a VC comes in, the VC also says that you know what build it out like this, hire this team. So we we become a little bit more of cookie cutter or prescribed model. Nothing

wrong in that. But it kind of reduces these opportunities of learning from chaos and I think Flipkart we are lucky to be in that period to be in the startup that was the largest scaling the fastest therefore had the highest chaos

and we could learn. Uh one of the the the most obvious one was the first uh big billion day in 2014. We had a cyber sale in 2013 uh which went really well

but it was nowhere close to what uh Sachin and Bini uh wanted to pull off with the big billion day. Uh and so

so we were uh specifically trying to actually do these crazy crazy sales. uh

we had uh uh offers called uh inventory based offers where I I still remember there were first 10 printers at one rupee right selling printers at one rupee

>> TVs also going >> TVs also uh first five TVs one rupee and it was a replication of the singles day model from China and all uh I tell

people that we had we we were worried about payments and we spoke to the payment gateways the reason I talk about talk about payments is because that's one of the reasons why we even started

uh phone pay and all the banks told us that don't worry uh uh we do uh tatkal booking >> you guys can't be bigger than tkal booking and we also assume that we can't

be bigger than tatkal booking so uh >> and how wrong were you >> way way off you I don't I I think people are okay not taking a train but they don't want to lose the one rupee

>> 100% >> TV so the hering effect that we created on our checkout system and the that what we translated onto the payment gateways.

So the sale opened at 8:00 a.m. So we

started in fact a little bit of this 12 midnight opening it for the select crowd all of that was a strategy to it's not a marketing strategy. It started as next

marketing strategy. It started as next year being a staggering strategy to make sure that we don't bring down the system. So uh 8 a.m. we opened by 8:15

system. So uh 8 a.m. we opened by 8:15 access bank SBI city all the payment gateways were down. Not just we were down. Then we had transactions that

down. Then we had transactions that succeeded ultimately failed.

Transactions that failed ultimately succeeded. Uh we in infinite knowledge

succeeded. Uh we in infinite knowledge said that it's okay. We will take these orders and we will do COD or we'll process payments later. Basically it was chaos.

So uh one of the learn and and I think from there we analyzed a bunch of things. It analyzed how to be prepared

things. It analyzed how to be prepared for these events etc. We analyzed architecture even tech architectures.

what to do. So one of the big learnings that I took away from all of that and there was we had much of we had flash sales. I think the whole concept of uh

sales. I think the whole concept of uh uh we were the first to launch Moto G phones that time on a flash sale. That

whole model of saying that buy this phone online and at 12:00 in the afternoon you'll get this special deal for half an hour all flash sales. So

there were a bunch of these and there was a phase in Flipkart where we were always in tech debt hell right and we were playing catch-up and that is never

a good place to be in because you're left with this thing about catering to business while trying to solve the system and you never are able to take out the time to do that right and you

keep patching and bandating the system.

So one of the things that at phone pay that uh was principally our rule between me Shantan who's the chief architect is to never be behind the business curve

from a tech capability.

>> So we actually and we had the luxury of amazing talent that we could assemble but we built uh the payment stack uh on day one to cater to uh 10 million

transactions a day.

>> Wow. Because anyway in payments if we don't get to a number like that there was no reason to exist. You can't be a consumer payments play in India trying to do less than that. Right? So given

that invest in that we took n we took 9 months to actually build out the payment stack. So it's unheard of in a startup

stack. So it's unheard of in a startup world. You want to actually build

world. You want to actually build measure learn fast be scrappy launch. We

didn't do that. We took our time and built it. Had the luxury to do it to be

built it. Had the luxury to do it to be fair. But that and that's largely the

fair. But that and that's largely the principle that we operated in many ways for a lot of the stacks at uh phone pay to say that build for future scale be

future provisioned try not to get into tech debt hell that is one from an org perspective uh uh and the reason we started also was because of payments not

working in India cood being a very large problem uh uh cash on delivery greatest innovation but has the highest level of pain to be able to run as operations. So

that that is a separate reason of why we started from an org perspective. I think

uh like I said huge amount of learnings in trying to invest in the right people from a missionary perspective >> but the other one also was uh we went through all sorts of experiments at uh

Flipkart in terms of design specifically in tech. So this whole SD1 2 3 4 5 SD

in tech. So this whole SD1 2 3 4 5 SD 1992 93 is all a flip card creation and I take a lot of blame for that. Also at

one point we had SD 1 2 and uh three and we had this extremely uh complicated calibration process every year. It was

like electing the pope. We all used to get into a room. We all used to discuss everybody. We had this competency

everybody. We had this competency matrix. It was sheer waste of time.

matrix. It was sheer waste of time.

and we still wanted to hold a bar. We

wouldn't promote an SD2 to SD3. So, we

created a SD 2.5. That was the lowest point of my uh career as a uh technology manager. I had this very strong allergic

manager. I had this very strong allergic reaction to titles and so we had only software engineer and we had architect.

Uh we had a functional definition to the role and we have no hierarchical definition. Even today we don't have we

definition. Even today we don't have we succumbed a little. We introduced a staff engineer. They caught me on a weak

staff engineer. They caught me on a weak moment and somehow rolled that out. But

it's software engineer, architect, there's engineering manager and head of engineering. There is no director. There

engineering. There is no director. There

is no VP. We're trying to get away from this labeling that actually creates a hierarchy and creates this artificial pressure for people to grow as well as managers to promote. And I think we I

think we pay the price in terms of sometimes talent not wanting to stay because they can't measure their own growth. But net net I believe if

growth. But net net I believe if measuring of growth is through what you have delivered for the organization what you have built and what's the IP that you have built and your capabilities I think that's the best talent you want

anyway retaining in the company and I think we've been fairly successful in that so that's another one but yeah a lot of these things >> no amazing you know u I think when you were talking it almost felt like you were trying to reverse the second law of

thermodynamics you're trying to reduce entropy out there and I genuinely believe that great people uh titles and compens compensation is one part of it but most of the satisfaction is the kind

of impact and the quality of work that they're doing because that's like daily feedback and that's what they take home on a daily basis but it is a lot of hard

work to get there right uh and while you saying I was just saying and reading this I was just wondering what are the daily rituals that u let's say if I was

to shadow you on your day right or uh or if you were to shadow your uh managers right uh how do does How does that uh look like and how much of that has been

discovery and how much of that has been deliberate?

>> I think it's a good combination of fairly deliberate >> uh having a certain amount of uh

framework and scaffolding that exists.

uh for example I in in the in the way I run the org uh I have the uh architect or the IC org

uh completely parallel from the architect or is leadership and is parallel to the head of engineering or >> sure >> and they grow all the way to the top uh

in terms of compensation very clearly titles are anyway uh flat and I have uh my uh I have staff that we call it is

not based on uh any sort of uh title etc. My staff is a head of engineering staff and an architect staff. It's based

on whether having that staff and having a regular connect with the staff gives me enough coverage across everything that we're doing in the org. So it

really doesn't matter whether somebody is a engineering manager, somebody is a head of engineering, somebody is an architect or somebody is an engineer.

they they they're part of my staff if that is the person that is leading an effort that gives me complete coverage and staying connected like that gives me the connect to make sure that I'm on at

least on top of decision- making strategy uh etc for all parts of the or what it what it does beautifully is also it uh further cements the fact that

hierarchy is not how we run >> it is about what you own and what is that you're delivering for the orc so it creates a good self-ful fulfilling prophecy of trying to actually take on

ownership and accountability of good meaty parts of the org on the back of your performance so that you are actually part of these conversations.

Second is uh uh we have a very in those groups we don't just discuss tech I discuss the entire P&L we are very transparent as a uh org from a data

perspective like uh we actually share uh our board decks as is uh up until now because until then we used to share our uh board decks with all the data with

the P&L right down to the burn everything including uh uh everything as what is the total employee cost all of it so that people understand what is the gross margin, what is the contribution

margin, what is ebitita, what is spat to the best possible manner because I think and we have data transparency on how categories are doing uh uh people

working on recharge can look at how daily gold is doing people looking at in bill payment can look at how insurance is doing it doesn't matter there are no boundaries to uh data access that

creates a much higher level of engagement and problem solving and innovation >> there are many things that come out of that. So those are the kind of things

that. So those are the kind of things that become scaffolding that are more uh because we we can put up in our values uh transparency but if we don't actually

emulate them in behavior that is structurally done it'll never actually survive beyond individuals who do it versus individuals who don't do it. So I

think that's the structural scaffolding that happens for me personally now. I

think it's uh I used I genuinely believe I used to be much more connected to the org till a particular size in terms of I used to walk the floor more, talk to a

lot of people etc. Uh uh I I'm CTO but uh I genuinely think that I do less of technology now. I I do product

technology now. I I do product compliance, business, finance. I do what it takes on

business, finance. I do what it takes on a daily basis as we are growing and between founders it's divide and conquer. I I look at new business lines.

conquer. I I look at new business lines.

I'm deeply involved with lending etc. So I have a significant amount of context switching. So I uh what I do well is uh

switching. So I uh what I do well is uh purely from a CTO hat I uh look at uh for the year what is it that I can future provision the org for for the next year because taking in anything

else as critical path goals or working with teams I've tried in the past and I kind of either slow them down or I don't do justice to it. So I take a year view what is 2025 going to look like from a

CTO hat and what is it that I should be investing in it first personally and then as the org so that 2026 or 2027 this will bring value to the org. So I

take that that particular view and through that I get connected to different set of folks. for obvious

reasons this year is on uh leverage of AI whether that is on the productivity side of thing that is on the consumer experience side of thing that is on setting up infrastructure uh experimenting because we have a large

on-prem infrastructure how does the hybrid uh structure work so bunch of goals around that so there's a core team created around that new set of individuals I work with so I stay connected like that so yeah

>> interesting uh I am uh since you mentioned yeah I'm just curious on what what is it that you are doing in building and what are you hacking around

just in case you get any free time?

>> No, actually this one uh vibe coding uh I do experiment a lot only because uh I've never ever in my life felt so out

of touch so far actually it's been fairly easy. I mean uh so my uh uh

fairly easy. I mean uh so my uh uh technical strength is large scale distributed systems and uh programming languages have changed but the uh

principles of building those haven't changed they haven't even changed now but the paradigm of software development is changing significantly >> uh the leverage that uh AI is providing

to build end products has changed the methodology of uh experimenting with products So uh there is opportunity to completely change the build measure

learn cycle. So I think one is just to

learn cycle. So I think one is just to get a sense and a confidence about whether this can work to what extent I've been experimenting uh uh quite a

bit. uh outside of that I think what

bit. uh outside of that I think what we've done well this year is based on that focused not uh so there's a lot of pressure to

try and see whether we can deliver value pretty fast from this right >> uh there'll be companies that announce uh 50% 40% increase in productivity

uh uh there are companies that are announcing uh a significant amount of uh change in revenue through some things.

There's a there's a there's a fair amount of pressure to get output oriented on this fast. Did a bunch of research realized that when you uh uh go a little deeper most of it is not sustainable value that has yet been

created.

>> So we took a input oriented approach focused on saying that let's look at what we need to enable for the orc. Uh

let's enable that for the org from uh two aspects. One is on the uh

two aspects. One is on the uh engineering side specifically on the technology side. We looked at the entire

technology side. We looked at the entire SDLC process. For the first time, we

SDLC process. For the first time, we tried to actually quantify like almost value stream mapping in supply chain.

Tried to actually put in the metrics and quantify what are the parts of the SDLC process that are uh broken in terms of time taken like merge requests in a very large organization with large number of

engineers is a huge problem.

>> Uh time taken that's one of them.

Testing is another huge problem. So

trying to map those then say that let's solve those and enable the org with that and let's not try to measure impact.

Let's then start doing just what we have the baseline metrics and output will emerge. Let's first evangelize and get

emerge. Let's first evangelize and get more of the orc to do it. Sim same thing on the non- tech part of the org. How

are how can we actually transform operations? How can we actually move

operations? How can we actually move towards a uh uh model that is human dependent in some areas like merchant onboarding etc and say that can we actually move away from being human

dependent and show value in those. Uh

again not not measuring whether there is a higher level of productivity downsizing teams none of those uh uh trying to just simply say that let's enable as much of the or the third one is to say that let's build

infrastructure out both on the hypervisor as well as uh on prem and build uh the right layer so creating a

uh like we have a ML platform trying to also create a uh gen AI gateway so that we can actually uh plug in different

models whether they are uh on the uh hypervisor on Azure or they are run on our infrastructure apply certain gating uh rules in terms of data protection etc

build our own uh agent hub to be able to actually uh allow the organization to create agent just create infrastructure once that is out there we'll start measuring value to the org next year because it was getting a little tedious

to try and create fast impact so that's the approach that we've taken here >> you know we'll go back to the phone pay me mythology a uh you mentioned about uh challenges with payments at Flipkart and I think

there were like multiple um I would say attempts to solve it internally. There

was one gateway that was built or payment system that was built then NGP was acquired right uh and then of course phone pay was also acquired but I'm curious about the mythology of phone pay

a bit what is the original story out there and uh actually then I have a couple of follow-ups on the hyperscaling moments but we'll start off there.

>> Yeah. So you're right. I think uh Phone Pay was Flipkart's fourth attempt.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. There was uh uh NG Pay.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh there was Space Zippy.

>> Space Zippy.

>> Then there was FKPG was uh the whole checkout and his thing was there which was very close to the phone pay part and then uh phone pay

happened. So I think there were it was I

happened. So I think there were it was I think the uh fourth attempt obviously. I

think the so phone pays origin most people think it was a very engineered move for most people first think we were in incubated in flipkart we were not I

mean we actually quit flipkart and started this uh uh without any intention of going back into flipkart in uh 6 to 7

months uh most people thought that we were spun off uh and with a agreed contract to come back and that was also not true we just quit and started uh

payments for the reasons that I said there was one that big billion day where we uh realized that if payments is not solved at the infrastructure level it doesn't matter what startup we build if

digital payments is not solved there's going to be a ceiling on the capability of any sort of commerce whether it is services e-commerce or anything else and

therefore the opportunity that is largest is to actually enable uh uh digital commerce across the uh country and solve for payments at infrastructure

level. We in fact started building

level. We in fact started building uh something on top of IMPS that was exactly what UPI does without knowing that UPI existed. We came to know that UPI existed after we started building and there was conversations with banks

and specifically Mr. Nandan Nilakani and Sharat Sharma from Ipirit is when we actually came to know that UP existed.

So uh uh to solve for payments universally was the goal. uh see uh cash on delivery being a nightmare. I was

heading supply chain and we had everything from uh so there were some delivery hubs where we used to sell so many phones that we started having armored trucks to take that money from

the delivery hub to banks to deposit it.

>> So that is the cost of cash collection if all that money reaches the hub first.

So then obviously there were uh thefts uh attacks on uh the last mile delivery person counterfeited nodes a lot of uh

issues are there with uh cash right so >> uh that was uh and actually even before that when we joined flipkart from our uh earlier startup in the media distribution space we actually joined

flipkart to build flipkart's digital platform digital I meant digital content >> so we launched a product called Flight still one of my I think I think flight for me is right up there with phone

pair. I I loved that team and that

pair. I I loved that team and that product so much. So we built flight uh uh MP3 which was the first uh native apps out of the Flipkart stable. I mean

Flipart was >> a heavy user.

>> Yeah.

>> You know I downloaded all the 256 uh bit rate audio files. All of them I still had this.

>> Yeah. And we had tracks at 3 rupees 5 rupees 8 rupees as small as that. And we

had 8 million tracks. 8 million tracks across all languages digitized. We had

our own uh downloader. We had our own app that could actually be the playback app and all of that. But obviously there was piracy which was a big problem uh in

terms of the intent to buy. But for the folks where the impulse purchase uh the price did not matter where they failed is to make the three rupee payment. when

it's an impulse purchase and you see this track that you really love and it's three rupees 5 rupees you just want to buy it at that point you can't do cood because there's no delivery it's instant delivery I can't tell you to come and

deposit cash so that you can download >> uh who's going to pull out in 2012 a credit card which didn't exist for most people or a debit card or net banking to do a three rupee transaction just didn't

happen so microtransactions also were not there so I think those were the reasons why phone pay started no microtransactions no scalability, no reliability in

digital payments, cash still king. So we

that was our inspiration for uh phone pay from a reason that we went back into Flipkart. It was actually uh uh very

Flipkart. It was actually uh uh very simple. We just wanted to build and we

simple. We just wanted to build and we really wanted to uh uh not I've seen the headache at Flipkart what it takes to keep raising

money and uh it becomes it's almost becomes a full-time job of founders.

>> Yeah.

>> To keep showing progress and goals that will bring in the next investor. So

there was always this period in Flipkart where you used to think who are we building for? Are we building for

building for? Are we building for raising the next valuation and money or are we building for the consumer? Right.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh didn't want to get into that. Uh

uh Bini came in back as CEO of Flipkart.

So Bin is a great friend uh mentor uh phenomenal guy. So uh there was a commit

phenomenal guy. So uh there was a commit of a significant amount of uh money which meant that we never had to raise money for three years and we could just build and that was the reason we went

back into Flipkart. So you know as founders our lives are full of waves of crisis I would say right but you know I also believe startups often break out

when they uh when they somehow maybe accidentally or by design run into some kind of a tailwind and massive tailwinds at that right of course with phone pay uh we had the demon we have like a couple of other uh moments right

microtransactions by itself was an amazing uh just a thing waiting to happen in the Indian space so you I have been thinking of you know as

founders how should we think about a identifying tailwinds when they come and how should we react so that we make the most of it at that point in time what's your thought process on that

>> I think it's a great question I think tailwinds will emerge the problem with that is that there's never a time or sequence that you can ever

predict on tailwinds so I think the most important thing is to actually have a one have some serious bets that have a

significant amount of impact creation, right? And two is to have a conviction

right? And two is to have a conviction to actually run with that for a certain period of time. If you have those two, then there will be uh uh opportunistic as well as sustainable tailwinds that

will emerge through that journey. for

the simple reason is that if you're solving a problem that is not necessarily about scale significant impact could be in a highly verticalized space or it could be in a as broad space as uh payments but the very fact that

you have a problem that you're solving for that has significant impact and purpose that you're delivering for it's almost natural that there will be a tailwind that emerges the tailwind could

be in forms of uh sustainable policy change uh that can happen uh the tailwind could be in the form of something that is highly tactical or uh

potentially a trend of investment right >> that comes in from VCs etc whatever so I think those will happen but identifying an opportunity that definitely is many

times I talk about companies that are uh not really solving a problem but just delivering a feature that is not a company you know you're building a feature >> right >> if you're building a company it has to be something that you're solving a

problem that has high impact and the way you do it will be multiffold it'll keep changing so if you figured out something like that I think tailwind will uh come in. You just have to have the conviction

in. You just have to have the conviction to run with that for four 5 years.

Nothing happens in a year. Nothing

happens in two years. And in a 5year time frame, I believe at least one tailwind emerges. And then at that

tailwind emerges. And then at that point, identifying it becomes uh very very important. The other part is to

very important. The other part is to actually uh keep keep at it to try and even engineer a certain amount of tailwind.

>> Yeah. through conversations through evangelization of what you're doing whether it uh to uh be present at the right place at the right time as much as possible with your solutions ideas then

you never start engineering those tailwinds also so I think that is the uh uh only way for us in the phone pay one I think just the betting big on UPI

>> was a big one for us it was very simply I think when we actually uh fell in love with UPI everybody else thought it'll never happen right but for us it was very

simple we were anyway building something like UPI and we we saw this this was love at first sight and then it was a once in a lifetime opportunity if it happened if it was successful it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity it

was as simple as that otherwise to have something that gets mandated across all the banks where the government and the central bank are together trying to actually push this is a once in a

lifetime opportunity but there was resistance from the banks uh there was obviously push back from a lot of the incumbents but for us saying that let's

go big on this one was huge where I talk about why we engineered it is that once we did that uh in the early days uh

there was significant amount of failure uh we used to track everything we used to put all the data out there we used to give it to NPCIS we used to give the banks our data uh saying that look these

are the issues that are there we we actually work with the ecosystem to keep improving Right. Uh we didn't really

improving Right. Uh we didn't really care about whether there was our IP, R data etc. that was going away. What we

cared about is that is UPI improving.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh like a lot of people don't know when uh demon happened and uh beh >> yes >> uh for demon because there was no real major app that was successful. The

entire onboarding process of beam and the uh copy and the multiple language etc came from phone pay right and we were okay with that because the fact

that what we recognized is that if beam is going to be driving awareness and education about digital payments I will benefit right being that what it did is

it made us partners in the ecosystem and a lot of the tailwinds that came in later of opportunity to actually participate >> uh in uh creation of the digital payments in the country. We were always

at the forefront from top of the mind for most folks. So I think those that kind of thinking is I think useful in engineering these tailwinds. Obviously

demon or the pandemic >> uh which was a tailwind for uh digital payments those nobody can predict but otherwise you can always hope to engineer one by just being highly plugged into solving the problems.

>> So that's a great point. We'll always

take dumb luck when it comes our way, but we have to be ready for it. You

know, over the years, given the illustrious career that you've had, right? Um, what is one decision that you

right? Um, what is one decision that you took which turned out brilliantly and you're really proud of and what is one decision that still gives gives you

sleepless nights or at least uh maybe a bit of you know what was I thinking? I

think uh I'm genuinely a believer of uh uh in a way what you say is compounding effect or uh that one single action matters for the future.

>> I think uh unfortunately this is uh publicized a little because I said it exactly in this vein in another interview but uh after my 12th I had

this was back in 90 I had an opportunity to join.

>> I have a go to pick with you on that.

So, so I I had because I didn't have a great uh uh all India rank like you man.

So, so I everybody was giving J I also gave J and I got a very ordinary rank and I I had the opportunity to either do civil engineering in uh IIT Bombay or computer engineering in Bombay

University and I chose computer engineering and it's difficult to say if I had chosen civil engineering whether uh where the phone pay would have happened just for this thing. I mean

>> there would be another phone pay but whether I would be part of that that phone pay or I would have made that phone pay happen in any little way that I did you can't say. So I I guess that could be one thing if you think about

the whole butterfly effect. I think that would be one thing. Other thing is uh when I finished my masters uh I had uh this was in 2001

>> uh uh when I finished my masters in the US it was at the com bust uh startups were all wiped out I had uh

a job offer from Intel uh I had a job offer from IBM and I had a job offer from Sun Micros Systemystems and I had a job offer from a startup called systems.

joined that startup uh uh on advice of a friend who said that uh this is the time to take a risk and learn and I think that mattered a lot. If I joined I don't know Intel or IBM uh I don't know where

I would have been. Maybe I would still be here but I think those are the decisions that matter. Regret decisions

I don't regret that much. I think uh sleepless nights >> maybe too >> I'll tell you no I'll tell you what give

me uh very frankly I think uh we didn't start uh phone pay thinking the numbers that you shared

thinking that uh we'd be where we are >> as a uh company as a platform uh and as a business right uh the total number of

company is the total number of uh employees. Uh platform is the sheer

employees. Uh platform is the sheer scale and business is the financial numbers and I think uh uh

we are learning as we go but the number of things that depend on us to deliver is uh keeps exploding exponentially.

Yeah.

>> So that paranoia of uh that imposter syndrome of whether you're the right person at uh for this stage always is there. The good part about that it

there. The good part about that it forces you to learn but the bad part of that that gives a lot of sleepless nights. I mean uh this thing is much

nights. I mean uh this thing is much bigger than uh any of us and yeah >> indeed it is you know you are the in some sense at times I say that I don't

look at the numbers I actually look at the number of UK transactions where the economy is going right and that clearly you are the bell weather of the Indian economy at that you know um if I was to

shadow you uh during the pe let's say a week during peak growth right uh what about uh your actions or rituals or the

way you go about doing things will surprise me.

>> Nothing I would think. I don't think uh I don't think anything stands out with uh how I operate. I think what you'll see me is I like to get into the

details. I am fairly detail oriented. So

details. I am fairly detail oriented. So

I I I will I don't prefer to work through a chain of command. So I will uh break through to talk to uh who is

actually doing the work >> versus uh whether there is uh a chain of command. I prefer to be very face uh I

command. I prefer to be very face uh I hate the faceless organization. I don't

like people uh talking uh tech product uh operations was responsible for doing this. You'll see me call that out. Said

this. You'll see me call that out. Said

is there a name? Who in tech? Who in

product? We are designed in a way that you can take names because once you become that organization that is uh talking about one function versus the other versus a person, >> then you've lost that whole plot of

holding each other accountable. So

you'll see me very continuously calling that out. Who's the person? What are

that out. Who's the person? What are

they doing? It's not an escalation. Tell

me who it is. Let's talk. Uh I hate uh uh plus ones on emails. you see me uh uh

uh pulling that out. So uh I like sharp RCAs. I don't think it's fingerpointing.

RCAs. I don't think it's fingerpointing.

It's about learning and uh demanding. So

I think I think it's just certain level of detail orientation, breaking the clutter and trying to keep uh try try to trying to keep the human connection in the or going in whatever we're doing. I

think that would be the only thing that probably uh is a little different for our scale of an organization. It's also

because uh I worry that uh if that goes away then the essence of why we got here also is gone. So yeah that's >> you know I have a visceral memory of this uh after the mintra acquisition of

uh by flipkart right uh I think there's one meeting wherein we used to do code rates >> and you were uh I still remember you were running on some specific piece and I was like you know this is like

exceptionally uh detail oriented and literally wanting to wanting to actually get to the root of the problem so that that memory has stayed you know what is the most misunderstood thing about building fintech in India

that you can just do lending and make money.

Every fintech in India wants to do lending, right? Uh

lending, right? Uh in fintech, lending is the graveyard of fintech startups. Globally, by the way,

startups. Globally, by the way, globally, it's not just in India. So,

yeah.

>> Nice. Good one. Uh what do you like to read and what would uh your one book recommendation to this group would be?

>> So I love science fiction.

>> I love reading uh uh science fiction and I uh like I don't say love I like reading books that get recommended on uh

entrepreneurship. Uh uh so uh one of the

entrepreneurship. Uh uh so uh one of the books that I love on the entrepreneur side is a very well-known book. It's not

something that I'm pretty sure people don't know. It's the hard things about

don't know. It's the hard things about hard things. I love that book because

hard things. I love that book because it's very simple language and it is highly based on uh anecdotal evidence uh easy to read because I don't get uh

management jargon or man management uh talk versus this thing. I love that book. Uh science

this thing. I love that book. Uh science

fiction is my uh uh favorite uh read.

Uh, I never get his name right. 16in

Louui. It's the

>> 16.

>> Yeah, the threebody problem and the trilogy is one of my uh uh favorite books on that front. Uh Andy Wire, I love uh uh I'm looking forward to uh the

movie on Project Hail Mary. That was the this is the author of uh Martian is a much more popular movie than the book, I believe.

>> But you know what? With this, I'll turn it to the audience uh for audience questions. So my question is that in

questions. So my question is that in today's time right with a lot of these new gen AI technologies and stuff that are coming up there's um many companies

that are coming up that are doing the exact same thing right so what is a competitive mode for new companies trying to come into a space that would

be for them >> in the genai space >> just in general because I mean uh tech I

mean software technologies Yes. So uh

and and my answer is a little bit not a little bit it's very much pre- Genai. I don't I frankly am not uh the

Genai. I don't I frankly am not uh the expert to answer on whether uh Genai is going to challenge this change it on how to differentiate on geni. I totally

agree. I think there are too many people trying to solve the same problem. uh uh

for me I think uh I've been a firm believer that anyway with uh open-source uh with uh the public cloud uh uh the

barrier to build using technology and to create a mode functionally using technology has shrunk significantly.

Genai has only accelerated that. So I

always believe that true mode comes in from uh uh uh scale and performance. To

be able to do something at a significant amount of scale but to have the same level of performance that you would have at 100th the scale or even better than

that is the true mode because uh what most people don't appreciate in software engineering is it's very easy to actually build out a functionality but to keep improving it incrementally at a

very significant level of scale is actually the more complex part of it.

It's not sexy but I always tell that uh a.1%

a.1% success rate improvement in payments can deliver significantly higher fiscal value to the company than building any new feature. So for me it's generally

new feature. So for me it's generally and but I'm biased. I'm a distributed systems guy so I'm biased. So for me scale and performance continue to be the moat whereas functionality continues to be completely commoditized and even more

so in the gen time. You mentioned uh trust and referenceability both available in your co-founder as well as later in phone pay when you were like you know scaling and everything but what

about the time when you were scaling the first time when you didn't have referenceability and what sort of guidance would you have uh you know uh when people are looking for co-founders or you are making an investment on how

the dynamic should be between the co-founders because trust is something that gets built over time of sorts getting into this marriage as co-founders in a company to discover

trust is a very very tricky thing. Uh

it's always better to actually work with somebody that you have known in a personal/professional capacity before you become co-founders

than to try and discover that as a uh that forcing function to try and find a founder and then get to know them through the entrepreneurial journey is a very very tough one. It's a 50/50 and

you have to go in with the view that it's a 50/50. It's better. It's very

simple. Known devil better than the unknown. So anybody that you have known

unknown. So anybody that you have known in a personal/professional capacity that you are able to identify complimentary skills on I think that is very important

and the comfort to call them out. I

think those are the two things both of them you is very difficult to do without having known them before. So if you work with somebody and if you choose somebody and start working with them as the founder like almost like a hiring

process between uh the two three of y'all and then you figure out that the complimentary skills don't exist or you're unable to actually call call each

other out freely that's a problem. So I

think uh the criteria is those two uh uh is the sum of parts the whole uh from a capability perspective and is the comfort level there to actually uh hold

the mirror to each other.

>> I had this question uh finance in India is a very you know complianceheavy space and it's like uh kind of regulated. So

how can startups navigate the compliance space especially when the startups don't have exact product and everything uh figured out and they're in the middle of building everything.

>> Look most of the time uh uh the regulator will not come after you when you're small or emerging. The very very nature of regulation is that it comes if

regulation starts preceding innovation innovation will not happen. Right? So

innovation will happen and then uh regulation will come in at the point that that innovation is impactful enough and they have to actually then check whether that positive impact has any

negative biases to it or not. So two

things that typically I tell folks is if there is a white space that you are looking at which is or a gray space which means effectively you've read the rules and there is something in the

rules that is a technicality that you can exploit. Don't do that because that

can exploit. Don't do that because that is never a that will never have a good ending because it'll get plugged at the point that you are at a particular level of scale. What you should do is uh

of scale. What you should do is uh within the rules if there is an opportunity that you're seeing that has not been solved for start solving it before you scale very large start having

conversations with the regulator. I

think the regulators in India gotten to the point that they're highly communicative >> writing white papers sending them white papers etc. They love that. So I think engaging in a manner through different

channels. For example, RBI has what is

channels. For example, RBI has what is called as RBI innovation hub right here in HSR layout right and they organize u uh fintech meetups and they love if uh

founders bring in stuff that they are working on to showcase ask questions all of it. I think many times what we

of it. I think many times what we realize is people think that if I share too much will they come after me like if they have to come after you they'll come after you. It'll get worse when you

after you. It'll get worse when you actually raised a lot of money and scaled and then they uh come after you.

So actually to be more transparent with them from early on and engage with them, it'll actually pave the right path. You

might have to navigate it a little but it'll pave the right path.

>> I remember you were talking about the flash sale and uh >> uh you used to follow a Lego structure for the website and all and the final solution to you know get rid of all the crashes was just to put a simple static

page. I remember that phase right. So

page. I remember that phase right. So

while in a lot of cases we try to build solutions you know which are quite complicated right I want to maybe uh want you to point out certain you know uh maybe examples with the power of

simplicity really came out you know strongly because many of us here are like early early stage founders or something and I'm kind of following this Airbnb philosophy where do things that

don't scale right trying to get to the first 500 customers and all just want to take take your thought like you said okay you took 9 months to build the phone pay systems and then many of the

founders wouldn't have that kind of a leverage or a flexibility right so how do we how should we go about you know balancing the two >> no I think a great question and a a tough one that's why I said when I did

that I had the luxury to do it uh both from a people perspective uh uh runway perspective whichever lens I I think it

really depends on the uh space that you're in if anything is infrastructural right for example if you're a B2B and SAS I think you can afford to be operating at a model where you're

talking about saying that I will actually build for the scale and ambitions I have year over year I think that works if you are building in the consumer internet space and your

opportunity of success only relies when you're actually at a significant amount of scale you can test the market to some extent but then you have to have the wherewithal as a company to decide that

after a certain level I am going to invest deeply for a step jump up in capability. If you get into that cycle

capability. If you get into that cycle of I am loving the growth but I'm not going to be able to sustain it but I'm not going to take the time off that becomes

uh an issue. So I think I think there's nothing wrong in actually taking the uh lean model to actually build out products. But if you you have to

products. But if you you have to recognize the point at which you're going to say that I'm going to take that time off and business is not going to potentially grow for x amount of time

because I now have to actually play that. If you're able to make those uh

that. If you're able to make those uh decisions and execute them, I think the lean model has no problem from a simplicity perspective. 100% agreed. I

simplicity perspective. 100% agreed. I

think we do in one of our values is uh simplicity uh breeds scalability strongly believe in that. I think

sometimes we overthink products like uh uh very simple example the number of times that we try to use for example

data to figure out the persona of a user versus we just ask the user what are you 99% of the time the user will tell you and that is better than trying to actually figure out what is

the persona of the user so there is this uh we we we need data sciences I think it is great But I think we use it for the simplest

of problems versus for the more complex problems, right? To uh try and use data

problems, right? To uh try and use data science and data intelligence as a weapon for the complex problems where the only way you solve it is when the uh

combinatorial explosion of data doesn't allow you to operate in any other way makes sense to try and figure out just put up a page to ask the consumer you tell me because I can give you this if you tell me. Most of the time the

consumers tell you that is very simple.

That's the best example right >> so I used to work in a company called general aeronautics we manufacture agriculture drones and most of our you know customers are farmers so when we

were operating all over India the major issue that we found was the cash operating model like in your case it was an like it was a trust issue people used to not trust the cash on in your case

but in our case it's more of a accessibility issue issue most of the farmers don't have smartphone so what is phone pay to acquire these kind of customers onto your platform or

digitizing these kind of customers rather than you're waiting for them to purchase a smartphone and then start using your platform and then how do you how what is phone pay in this case majority majority of the customers in

this case are farmers and people who don't have smartphone >> so I think uh the only opportunity that

we have ahead of us from the non-s smartphone users is to actually uh work on a uh feature phone solution

uh on UPI.

We we do have a play there. Recently, we

acquired some IP and uh are are going after that from that IP perspective.

Beyond that, we haven't really uh thought that deeply about uh that space.

Frankly, the feature phone itself, I'm not sure will completely solve it because it's limited in its uh capabilities.

uh uh but yeah that's that's right now what the thinking is.

>> So uh my question is like we were talking about the regulators uh and the complexities in India right so my question is very specific that uh in fintech space there might have been a

situation where you had to work with the regulator and sort out a problem. uh so

I am uh thinking about a specific problem from past two years like we have in credit cards one account you have add-on cards but in uh wallets you can't

have add-on users right so and that uh you know seems to be the natural progression uh in this sector so let's say we have to solve this problem how do you engage with the regulator

>> like I said I think this is a classical uh thing where uh RBI H can play a role because it falls under the u uh

regulation of the uh RBI payments department. So I think the RBI

department. So I think the RBI innovation hub was actually designed for this to be able to actually uh post these questions uh writing to them uh

giving them all the information. I think

with the regulator try not to shy away from providing as much details and the only thing that is important is you must also try to understand from the regulators perspective what are their

concerns for example if you're talking about uh uh add-on wallet I'm assuming that is the prepaid instrument uh that you're talking about like uh uh this

thing that is that that is an individual KYC based wallet so when you're creating an add-on what will be the uh KYC norms, who will do that KYC etc. uh become the

thing. So the more you can actually

thing. So the more you can actually think from the regulators perspective and look at what potentially they will have as problems and suggest the right solutions if you can detail that out. I

think the RBI RBI is the right one in uh this particular case.

>> Thanks Rahul. uh you know uh I do this thing wherein these days I ask uh one of the models to share uh what should be the topic or what should

be the title for this talk right >> and you know what um five uh five suggested was uh substance over surface right I think very appropriate so thanks

for taking out the time and talking to us really enjoyed the chat and uh it was a fun conversation >> thank you so much it was That was another episode of minus one from the team at South Park Commons.

Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts and find us on social at South Park Commons. And

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