Search Inside Yourself: From Google to mindfulness

It's absolutely fantastic to have you all here and it's absolutely wonderful to have our guest Ming. Thank you so much for being with us. Do come up and join us.

If nobody minds, if nobody minds, I'd like to begin as usual by bowing to the audience.

Thank you.

>> Thank you. And and thank you so much for being with here. It's it's been a fun fun day already so far. There's a lot to talk about all the different things that you've done. But

you've done. But >> can I start right at the beginning, >> you know, because there was a period before you were at Google.

>> That is true.

>> So >> yes, but I was born once.

>> You were born ah wow. So well, so can we start there? Not with all the details of

start there? Not with all the details of that, but but what was your upbringing?

what what set you on this path?

>> So, uh I g I was born in Singapore. I

grew up there. Uh the amazing thing about Singapore was uh when I was born, we were a third world country and by the time I became 21, we were a first world country. So, I I lived through that that

country. So, I I lived through that that transformation that the the Singapore economic miracle was amazing. So, my own journey uh uh I was supposed to be quite

smart. My my mom says my my mom says I

smart. My my mom says my my mom says I learned to read at one and a half years old. My IQ was tested at 156. And then

old. My IQ was tested at 156. And then

when I was 12, I taught myself to program a computer. So that was back then 1982. And then when I was 13, I

then 1982. And then when I was 13, I taught myself no assembly language programming uh for those who know that is. And then uh which is that means to

is. And then uh which is that means to program at the level of the computer itself. And then when I was 15, I won my

itself. And then when I was 15, I won my first national award in computing. And

then I was national champion, blah blah blah. Yeah. So that was that was my

blah. Yeah. So that was that was my growing up.

>> So you're always fated to be a tech guru of some kind. You know, there wasn't much choice.

>> Uh kind of a tech guy. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So that I can see how that gets you into Google and and just we'll come on to more about mindfulness and and Buddh Buddhism, but had you ever been interested in those sorts of things when you were younger? Did you study the

philosophy at school or do anything like that? What?

that? What?

>> Well, kind of. So um

when you heard this story I just told you right was I was in the news I I won all these awards you would think oh this guy has everything made right uh so what happened was in reality I was very

depressed I was so depressed by the way that I was suicidal right want to kill myself all the time when I was young the only reason I didn't was because I'm a coward

so in addition to being depressed I was useless right so uh However, I was useless. I was depressed and useless in

useless. I was depressed and useless in a way not in a way that that uh that paralyzes me but in the opposite. I keep

trying to find the way out. So I started on a quest to learn how to end suffering, right? My suffering. So

suffering, right? My suffering. So

that's why I I started learning about science, philosophy, religion and nothing worked.

So uh what happened? What happened was uh just before I turned 21 by the way I went to Catholic school so I thought I knew everything about religion about Catholic about Christianity and so on.

Uh so when I was 21 just before turned 21 I was invited to go to a church. I

say I knew everything. I went to Catholic school. The the school I went

Catholic school. The the school I went to was called Catholic High School. That

was the name of the school. They left

nothing to imagination.

And I was like sure I'll go. and he was a Pentecostal church. Uh so it was it was very different from a Catholic church and people were speaking in tongues. The pastor spoke like a pro. I

tongues. The pastor spoke like a pro. I

mean this guy all went through like toast masters training and all that. I

was I was really impressed and and the best part was at the end of it uh people were like uh speaking on collapsing on the floor like they're crying. I was

like whoa I found it. I was like I was like I mean nothing uh here made sense to me.

However, I can imagine myself coming here uh once one day a week every week clear myself all my suffering and then go go more go for six more days of of

crap of suffering. I figured it out. I

told myself. So the uh by coincidence the week after that I met a Tibetan a Buddhist nun. So she's American, white

Buddhist nun. So she's American, white lady, but she's in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. So I asked her, I was quite

tradition. So I asked her, I was quite rude. I said, "Look, look, last week I

rude. I said, "Look, look, last week I went to church. I saw for myself how they dealt with suffering. What do you have in your Buddhism that deals with

suffering?" Yeah. It wasn't very nice.

suffering?" Yeah. It wasn't very nice.

And and she said, "All of Buddhism is about dealing with suffering." And I had like that that moment like, "Whoa." It's

like I knew I was this close to the answer I was looking for. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know why, but I knew I was this close.

So the week after that, again by coincidence, I she she came to my university uh and then I watched her speak. I was in the audience and then in

speak. I was in the audience and then in the middle of a talk there was one sentence and that sentence was she says it's all about cultivating the mind

and suddenly everything in my life made sense. Everything in my life suddenly

sense. Everything in my life suddenly made sense. And from that moment I said

made sense. And from that moment I said from now on this moment here I'm a Buddhist and I'm going to learn meditation no matter how hard it is. And

it was very hard.

>> Shall I tell you this that story?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So, so uh when I So, I made the commitment. I'm going to learn

commitment. I'm going to learn meditation. This is it. And uh

meditation. This is it. And uh

unfortunately, I was literally the worst meditator on earth.

People say that, but it's true for me.

How is that true? Uh because I didn't I could not breathe. I mean, imagine being so stupid that you don't know how to breathe this guy. So you know the

meditation instruction I back then they all taught by like like strict Buddhist monks right in those days and the instruction was concentrate on your breath. Okay.

breath. Okay.

I can breathe right. So so what what happened? I was trying too hard. So what

happened? I was trying too hard. So what

was the solution? Easy. The solution was to try harder. So I kept trying harder and harder and nothing worked. So what

do I do? I give up. Uh but I made a commitment right I I'll do this no matter how hard it takes. So so I gave up in a way where I just I didn't just

like give up give up. I just know I committed to sitting. So I just sit.

That's my sitting and then do nothing for one hour. And halfway through that like about five 10 minutes in I caught myself breathing.

Oh, that was the very first time I was able to breathe and bring my attention to my breath at the same time by catching myself breathing. So, I just

did that and then about few minutes later I found my whole body and mind uh encapsulated and in in joy just joy in

my whole body and whole mind and that lasted for 30 minutes and then I realized I have found a solution. This

is it. this is a solution to my depression. So that experience went away

depression. So that experience went away and then a few weeks later it came back and it went away and it came back and the the the time between then coming back became shorter and shorter and it

became a skill and then after a while I could do it on demand on demand within a few seconds of meditation I can bring about that joy and then my depression went away, suicidal thoughts went away.

So I went from the kid who wanted who keep wanting to kill himself to the guy who calls himself the jolly good fellow and that was a transformation.

>> It's an amazing transformation and joy is such a powerful phrase or word idea.

>> Uh it's really amazing but and I do want to come back to how you sort of spent your life post Google or sort of you know the later bits of Google but >> you were also still an engineer.

>> Yes.

>> Um you went to Google in the very early days.

>> Yes. Yes. because it brought you joy or because it brought you salary?

>> Uh yes. So I uh yes uh I was an engineer but in my defense I was young and needed the money.

>> Uh yes uh I mean in in the old old days right uh when we were growing I mean I grew up in a poor country. My my parents could not afford to eat three meals a day. I we couldn't afford to eat three

day. I we couldn't afford to eat three meals a day. So uh when you grow up like this uh all you think about is to get out of poverty. So yes I just did

whatever it took. work hard and see what happens. So yeah, at that point I didn't

happens. So yeah, at that point I didn't think a lot about beyond working hard and being successful.

>> But you managed to work hard and be successful. Do you want to say just a

successful. Do you want to say just a bit for people who don't know what you did at Google? Okay.

>> Just because some people may use some of your work occasionally.

>> Okay. And I'll tell you about the jolly good fellow thing. Yeah. So so when I joined Google, I was just I was just an engineer. We were startup back then. Uh

engineer. We were startup back then. Uh

I was employee 107. So uh when when you join a startup basically you are expected to do whatever needs to be done right they don't you're not oh I'm the security guy I'm the database guy no

whatever needs to be done you do right so you have to be good at everything or be able to learn anything so uh that was fed my skills very happily so I was an

engineer and then what happened was uh a few years later so so when you join a startup the other thing is there that you do have a job title so everybody already have a generic job title which

was software engineer and so after a few years uh because the company grew to a certain size we started having a career ladder yeah I mean yeah HR announcing we

all we all made fun of right and then no the highest ranking engineer in the career ladder in Google is called a Google fellow and so I'm the jokester I made a joke I say why be a Google fellow

when you can be a jolly good fellow right and then everybody laughed And my philosophy is if everybody laughs that's the right thing to do. So what do

I do? Uh we I send my name card for

I do? Uh we I send my name card for printing. So so in the old days what you

printing. So so in the old days what you did was you go internally on the website and you just key in your job title and say print these cards, right? So I I

myself as Jolly good fellow with the parenthesis which nobody can deny.

Why? Because of the song, right? Also,

uh I also knew that uh this thing had to be approved by HR before it actually got printed. And I knew they're going to

printed. And I knew they're going to deny it. And I said, "Hey, I said which

deny it. And I said, "Hey, I said which nobody can deny that." So, I have a funny story to tell. That was that was my intention. Uh turns out HR had a

my intention. Uh turns out HR had a sense of humor. They approved it and then few weeks later I found it on my desk and I started giving her out as as

because it's so funny. And then it ended on the front page of the New York Times and that's how I got stuck with the job title.

>> There are worse titles to have. So

>> true.

>> Um, and so because you were doing, you know, a certain amount of software engineering, you did mobile search and various other things.

>> And how do you you then set up the sort of search inside yourself program? Was

that just easy? Was everyone at Google delighted to see you >> do something different or was it >> ah okay so uh that story. So, so what

happened was uh there was I was I was in Google at the time. Uh the the the year was 2003. I remember it was in August. I

was 2003. I remember it was in August. I

was taking a walk outside the Google campus. So back then Google campus means

campus. So back then Google campus means a cluster of small buildings. Remember

we were a small company. I was taking a walk and I had that moment when I knew what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. It just came to me like for the

life. It just came to me like for the rest of my life I want to create the conditions for world peace. The

conditions for world peace in my lifetime. That's what I want to do.

lifetime. That's what I want to do.

So uh in Google we have something called 20% time back then at least. So 20% of time you could do whatever you want. And

I said okay I'm going to work on this.

I'm going to work on creating the conditions for world peace.

So the only question was how and then eventually I figured out I figured it out the way to create a conditions for world peace is to scale inner peace, inner joy and compassion

worldwide. So these three qualities are

worldwide. So these three qualities are worldwide then with the conditions for world peace. Not that we will have world

world peace. Not that we will have world peace but we have the conditions.

The only question was how and I figured it out. The way to do that was through

it out. The way to do that was through mindfulness and kindness, right?

Developing from the inside out, right?

Then I just had to like spread it out, right? Uh only question was how? See the

right? Uh only question was how? See the

the problem was this. The problem is if I go around the world talking about inner peace, inner joy, compassion, what happens? Everybody collapse. Yeah. You

happens? Everybody collapse. Yeah. You

go home and nothing changes. Right? So I

have to find a way where people will say I want I want to do that. So I have to appeal to self-interest and then the only question was how and I

figured that out the way to do that was I was going to create uh I was going to create I was going to lead the creation of of a curriculum for emotional

intelligence because everybody knows EI it's good for my career it's good for teams it's good for profits but nobody back then knew how to train it and we knew because we were meditators we knew

how to train the mind So all I have to do is to create this curriculum for emotional intelligence and then uh I tell people this is good for your

career. This is good for profits. This

career. This is good for profits. This

get your promotion and as a side effect uh unavoidable side effect you will have peace, joy, compassion. So and people are signing up right because they want to be successful they don't mind being

happy.

So and so I gathered some of the world's top experts uh to come to Google and we hammered out what we call search inside yourself. Again the name was a joke you

yourself. Again the name was a joke you know because of Google you know search inside like and but and then I ran at Google and it became the most popular class in Google.

So uh and then after that I ran it for a while and uh Google University back then was situated under HR and after a few rounds HR invited me to switch over. So

I became the first engineer in the history of Google to switch over to HR.

Uh but I didn't have to change job title. I was still the Jolly Good

title. I was still the Jolly Good Fellow. But now I had new job

Fellow. But now I had new job description. I gave myself a new

description. I gave myself a new sevenword job description. And the seven words were enlightened minds, open hearts, create world peace.

And that's what I did at Google. And

they pay me a salary. I don't know why.

>> And they appraise you every year to check that you were creating world peace. Yes.

peace. Yes.

>> So, how many people did that course in Google?

>> I >> roughly >> roughly couple of thousands. I don't I don't know how many thousands. Uh but we did bring it outside of Google as well.

>> You have a book >> and and I have a book. Oh, yes. That's

right. That's I had to promote my book.

That's that's why I'm here. So,

so what happened was uh uh the the the course be became increasingly popular.

So, we need to train more teachers. And

so I started writing down the what I what I say in class like in detail. And

after three days of doing that I realized that I was writing a book. It

was a book project. So I asked my boss Karen for 13 weeks. So that's three months of unpaid leave to to work on this book. And Karen was just she's very

this book. And Karen was just she's very kind. She asked me do you realistically

kind. She asked me do you realistically think you can write a whole book in 13 weeks? I said I don't know but I know

weeks? I said I don't know but I know one way to find out.

So she gave me 13 weeks off. Turns out

Karen was right. I could not write the book in 13 weeks. It took me 14 weeks.

Whose fault was that? The Dalai Lama's fault >> because he was in town for a whole week.

I was I spent the whole week with him and I couldn't work.

>> Yeah. He takes a lot of the blame for that.

>> That's right. That's right. Always went

to Dalai Lama.

And so and so I had a book and then uh yeah, it became an instant bestseller.

And so yeah, and then it just blew up and suddenly I was like, whoa, I I had a book and I'm a bestselling author. I I

didn't see that coming.

>> And so but you did you go back to Google or you decided, no, you had your your 14 weeks. You broke the deal. You're out.

weeks. You broke the deal. You're out.

>> No, that is very funny. No, they they kept me for some reason. I don't know why. I think it's because I'm so

why. I think it's because I'm so good-looking. It's hard to say no to to

good-looking. It's hard to say no to to this space. Yeah. But I I stay at Google

this space. Yeah. But I I stay at Google and continue uh running the course.

But then you have I mean because you have now left Google. I

>> I have I retired. I'm an old man.

>> Not sure what the assignment is. But

what what took you out of it just >> um so uh the way I put it is this is that uh I came I came to I asked myself this question. Do I want to die in

this question. Do I want to die in Google?

And if the answer is no then at some point I have to leave before I die.

Right? The only question was when, right? And then I figured, yeah, there

right? And then I figured, yeah, there was a point in time where I changed enough and Google changed enough where I thought it was the right time to leave.

>> Yeah.

>> And and you've now done, I mean, there's there's many other projects you've done in this sort of space. Um, one of those is the 1 billion acts of peace.

>> That's right.

>> Do you want to say a bit more about what that is and how people can do some of those acts?

>> Ah, okay. So, so uh everything I do is is uh under the theme of trying to create the conditions for world peace.

So, search inside yourself tries to do that through the inside out, right?

Trying to create inner peace, inner compassion and then through that hopefully translating into action.

The billion x does the exact opposite which is to begin with action acting for peace so that you can affect inside so

outside in. And the idea behind that was

outside in. And the idea behind that was to uh change the nar narrative, change the default. So what does that mean? So

the default. So what does that mean? So

right now for most of us uh not taking action is a default and as an exception we take action for peace. So the idea is what we we flipped it and the way to

flip it is by starting with 1 billion act of peace. 1 billion and if we can do 1 billion maybe we can change the world in a way where everybody assume that that's the default just take an action

and as an exception you don't do anything so that was how we thought about it and uh I didn't come with the idea by the way uh the person who had my idea uh this was a bunch of Nobel Peace

Prize winners headed by uh Archbishop Tutu so uh they they had this idea and then uh some people they came the organization is called peace gem. So I

talked I talked to the founders and during the first conversation I was like they they call it uh a global call to action or something like that. Global

call to action. That was father Tutu's idea. And I said uh and what you trying

idea. And I said uh and what you trying to achieve and they explained to me a bill of peace. I said change the name to 1 billion x of peace. And they was like no you can't do that. It's it's father two to two to two to two to two to two to two to two to two to two to two so

owner idea. I said no change it. Yes. So

owner idea. I said no change it. Yes. So

they did that and after they did that they kept coming back to me to ask me for advice and then after that they came to me to invite me to speak at the UN on on their behalf and so one thing led to

the other and then eventually I became co-chair of X. So so yeah so that's how it started. It didn't start from me. I

it started. It didn't start from me. I

just did whatever was needed.

>> And and what is an act of peace?

>> You know can you give an example of you know one or a few things that would count?

>> Yes. Uh yes and and I take you example and tell you what where the problem is.

So uh example is there is uh so this there's a Tibetan community in in India.

I mean they all in mostly India. So

there's this Tibetan community. They're

like couple of teenagers. They wanted to give back to their Indian host and so they they discovered that there is a village nearby with no access to water.

I mean in Indian village is a lot of people. It's not like not like 20 ft.

people. It's not like not like 20 ft.

It's no excess at all. So the kids have to like walk couple miles to carry water back. So we said what if we bring water

back. So we said what if we bring water to them? So the bunch of Tibetan kids

to them? So the bunch of Tibetan kids just started soliciting money from from uh from white guys like the westerners who were visiting Dhasala asking them

for money and they got the money and they bought piping equipment everything and then they convinced the Indian the Indian government to allow them to give them permit to do that. So now because

of what they did like 20,000 people have access to water. So that's one act of peace. Uh then the question is there are

peace. Uh then the question is there are eight kids who did that. Is that eight XPS or one? So So there is a 20,000 or 20,000. Yeah. So So that's that's a

20,000. Yeah. So So that's that's a raging debate. We we haven't figured it

raging debate. We we haven't figured it out. So that's one example is very nice.

out. So that's one example is very nice.

Another example is a bunch of kids.

Again, I mean when I say kids, I mean teenagers. I I apologize for the younger

teenagers. I I apologize for the younger people uh young people. uh they they realize that uh the women in prison and

then these women they have kids who are not in prison and the problem is they cannot one of the many problems in that situation is that the women cannot read

bedtime stories to their kids. So they

just decided to start this project where they go to prison and and read and have those mothers read bedtime stories and record them and bring them to the kids.

It's beautiful. Yeah. So, so does that count as one act or 10? I have no idea.

But so, those those are examples of acts of peace.

>> I mean, this might be interesting for all of us to think a bit about what sort of things we could do and and you know what we counted. You know, if if we if everything goes horribly wrong, we don't count, right? We end up with three

count, right? We end up with three billion. I think we can live with that.

billion. I think we can live with that.

>> We can live with that. So, as of now, the last I checked, I think we have we have 100 million so far. So, I'm I'm 90% failure, 10% success. So, like that's the story of my life.

I mean but but but it but that but that's still you know 100 million is still a huge amount I mean you know >> yeah it doesn't suck >> absolutely and I think there's a huge amount there that we can think about. So

um so you so some of your projects are doing these things externally >> but you've also talked you you know you have books about joy and about the to come back to the in the inner world >> correct

>> um do you have tips for people about how to >> reach reach that sense of joy I mean you've said what worked for you what are your top tips for everybody here

>> okay okay uh let's see we we have a couple of minutes right okay uh will you indulge me with an exercise so so uh I'm going to do

I lead a sixsecond exercise. 6 seconds.

Uh for 6 seconds, I like you to bring total but gentle attention to one in breath and one out breath. That's all.

Okay. Ready? Starting now. Inb breath.

Out breath.

and thank you for your attention. That

was 6 seconds. You feel better already, right? It's like no matter how you felt

right? It's like no matter how you felt before the 6 seconds, you feel calmer already after the six seconds. For

example, hypothetically, for example, you're in front of audience and then you can nervous because it's always nerve-wracking to be in front of audience and then you do feel better already.

Uh so this is one exercise something you can bring back home already, right?

Whenever whenever you're under stress, uh sometimes it could be chronic stress.

You just like so much to do. Sometimes

it could be like like uh what's the acute stress like in the very situation you're a salesperson and this person in front of you is so nasty, right? And so you might wonder why does

right? And so you might wonder why does that work? So there there are two

that work? So there there are two reasons one physiological and one psychological. The physiological reason

psychological. The physiological reason is this. Notice that when I when I say

is this. Notice that when I when I say bring attention to your breath gentle and and total you notice that you breathe slow more slowly and deeper

right instinctively it just happens and when you do that you're activating your vagus nerve and you that is activating something called the relaxation response which is the direct opposite of the

stress response. So everything that is

stress response. So everything that is the stress response the heart rate goes up it does the ex exact opposite. So

your heart rate goes down, your blood pressure goes down and so on and so forth in one breath.

So that's is already is that powerful.

The psychological reason is even more powerful which is that uh to worry you need to be in the future. To regret you

need to be in the past. When you bring total attention to the breath where are you? You are in the present. And in the

you? You are in the present. And in the present for six seconds you are free from worry and regret. Freedom from

worry and regret. Even for just six seconds it counts. Your body notices.

Your body say thank you. I get to rest.

That's why your body's happier.

Can you indulge me in another exercise?

>> Y.

>> So now that you're all experts, we're going to do a longer exercise. We're

going to do a 10 second exercise.

So I tell you what the exercise is.

Okay. uh secretly secretly identify two people in this room and then uh I would say when exercise starts I would say secretly wish for these two to be happy

in your head. So do not go like uh just secretly like like that right they don't they don't know what you're thinking. So just

do that for two two persons. I I wish for this person to be happy. I wish for that person to be happy. That's it.

Don't say it out loud. Just think.

There's 10 seconds. Sounds good. Okay.

10 seconds begins now.

And thank you for your attention.

Uh you notice that if you're doing this exercise, you're smiling, right? You

notice to to be on the giving end of a kind thought is intrinsically rewarding.

I mean, you didn't even do anything. You

didn't even take any time. All you did was think. And thinking is the easiest

was think. And thinking is the easiest thing any adult can do, right? Think of

an elephant.

We can all do that. And so just by just by thinking I wish for this person to be happy already you're happier.

So my friends if you only remember one thing from this talk I hope you remember this exercise. Do this exercise like

this exercise. Do this exercise like wherever you are wish for somebody else to be happy and you will get happier.

And this could be okay I'm going I'm going to argue this and you can disagree with me. This is the secret of

with me. This is the secret of happiness.

Can I tell a story?

>> Yeah I will. Yeah absolutely. and then I will >> Yeah. Okay. So, uh I I was speaking on

>> Yeah. Okay. So, uh I I was speaking on the Monday. Oh, today's Monday. I was

the Monday. Oh, today's Monday. I was

speaking at a Monday in in San Francisco. So, this is a place called

Francisco. So, this is a place called Spirit Rock. So, it was an honor to be

Spirit Rock. So, it was an honor to be invited to teach at Spirit Rock. And

then we did this exercise 10 seconds.

So, I tell them, okay, tomorrow is a work day. Tomorrow is Tuesday. You're

work day. Tomorrow is Tuesday. You're

going to work, right? So, say tomorrow do this every hour on the hour secretly wish for two people in around you to be happy. Right? this guy walk past just

happy. Right? this guy walk past just think I mean don't don't just just think and it's not embarrassing because if they don't know that what you're thinking and just do that for that's it

every hour an hour for eight hours see what happens I so I sign that as homework so uh and then uh on Wednesday morning I

receive email from a total stranger and this person says I hate my job I hate coming to work every single day but I went to the talk on Monday I did the the

homework on Tuesday and Tuesday was my happiest day in seven years.

Happiest day in seven years. What did it take? It took 80 seconds worth of

take? It took 80 seconds worth of thinking. That's all it took. So my

thinking. That's all it took. So my

friends, I like to recommend this exercise for you if you're willing.

Okay. Okay. I'll sign this homework.

This this is Cambridge. You got

homework.

>> Homework. Yeah. Tomorrow when you go back to work, for those who are working every hour on the hour, secretly wish for two people to be happy. And for

those who are not working, do this, do this at home. Yes, kids, please do this at home.

Um, >> so pretty soon I'll take questions from here and online. But actually that leads to we're talking uh discussing earlier.

So my mother was a professor of psychology who did a lot of work on on well-being and mindfulness, literally the science of well-being and creating the world we want to live in. And and

there's actually a huge amount of evidence for this. So my mother was always she, you know, sadly isn't with us, well I'm sure she'd be signing and correcting every single fact I say. But

um she was very interested in what not just what sounds good but what actually works.

>> And what's fascinating about some of the things you're saying is there is good strong evidence. Correct. There's been a

strong evidence. Correct. There's been a huge amount of research that gift giving provides more happiness than gift receiving. Yes. You know that that

receiving. Yes. You know that that wishing good things for other people is a hugely positive thing. So it's quite exciting that it sounds good and works.

That's right. So you know really hugely exciting. One final question um for me

exciting. One final question um for me just to you know we we'll then explore lots of other things. Um you've had experience thinking about the soul and humanity and at Google is Google good

for humanity.

I I tell you what I used to feel and uh so when I when I joined Google we all thought that we were changing the world for the better and that was our main motivation. We're all going to change

motivation. We're all going to change the world. I mean some of you are maybe

the world. I mean some of you are maybe too young to remember. You may you may be slightly older than most of you.

Yeah. So imag

30 years ago the the our motivation.

Imagine giving everybody in the world no matter how poor access to all the knowledge in the world.

I mean back then your sounds like wow.

But but I mean at Google we like we on the cuff. We can do it. We can do it.

the cuff. We can do it. We can do it.

And then when we do it, it's going to benefit so many people. So that was what motivated us. And so yeah, in back then

motivated us. And so yeah, in back then in Google, our moto was don't be evil.

That was our prime directive. Don't be

evil. And not just don't be evil, we do good, right? And so I was so proud to be

good, right? And so I was so proud to be in Google that entire time even even though my salary was fairly low back then. Uh but yeah, I was so proud that

then. Uh but yeah, I was so proud that we're all changing. I mean, Tyler was all changing the world. That's how we felt every single day going to work. Uh

but today uh may be different because it's it's a different world. It's a

different company and I've I've left for 10 years already. So I have no idea anymore.

>> Interesting. Yes. And it's great to have Tyler here from the university's Think Lab program who introduced Ming to us and is a a very good and long-standing colleague. Um do we have any questions

colleague. Um do we have any questions from people either online? Please do put them on the Q&A or here in the room. Uh

if you put your hand up, I will make sure that we get a microphone to you.

So, the first one I saw was at the front here.

>> There. And there's one up there. Yep. I

will only take one at once, I'm afraid.

>> Hello. So, I'm from every college Cambridge. And I want to ask you,

Cambridge. And I want to ask you, >> what's your name, by the way, my friend?

What's your name?

>> Uh, my name is Julia.

>> Julian. Hi, Julian.

>> Hello. Um, so my question is very simple. What is your favorite exercise

simple. What is your favorite exercise to calm yourself?

>> Calm? Oh, breathing.

>> Just breathing.

>> Just breathing. Yes.

Uh okay. Uh so that I I'll give you the

okay. Uh so that I I'll give you the full the full uh spectrum. Uh okay. Uh

if if you don't mind. So there are actually three parts to it. Thank you

for asking. There are three parts and I like to argue that all exercises that deals with uh negative painful emotions involve these three steps. The first

step is attention is the deployment of attention and in this case breathing. So

uh the first thing when you do is stop right because the next thing I'm going to say I'm going to regret so I consciously stop and then I breathe and notice my breath okay so by

deploying my attention already I feel better but obviously the problem hasn't gone away right when I stop breathing the problem is still there what to do so

the next step is a effective affect as in as in emotion which is to deal with the emotionality of the situation at hand. And my

suggestion is to bring attention from the breath to the body to whole body at once. Why? Because the body is

once. Why? Because the body is correlated with every experience of emotion. Every experience of emotion has

emotion. Every experience of emotion has a correlate in the body. And there's a stronger version of that claim which is every emotion comes from the body. And

not everybody agrees with that claim.

But the first claim I can make with full confidence. And so if you bring

confidence. And so if you bring attention to the body, why does it help?

There's a very beautiful Tibetan analogy which is that the moment you can see a river, you're no longer completely drowning, right? Because when you're

drowning, right? Because when you're drowning because the water level is here, you can't see it. But you can see a river, you're like this close to not drowning, right? So therefore the moment

drowning, right? So therefore the moment you can see the emotionality in the body you're no longer completely under it control

right and then uh if you want to then another thing you can do is see yourself as a mesh so just imagine emotion just coming through like through a mesh coming in

and coming out whatever emotionality arrives I I let it arrive when as leave I let it leave so that's the second step affective The third step is cognitive because

after you deal with the emotion the problems are still there right. So uh

the cognitive aspect is to is reframing usually with compassion uh usually by looking at the bigger picture. So for example Julian said

picture. So for example Julian said something and I felt offended. Why do

you say that about me? What do you think is that? Oh wait if I so I first I deal

is that? Oh wait if I so I first I deal with the ah no and then a effect. Ah

okay didn't have any emotion but so oh wait Julian she doesn't mean that what she means to say was this this this and then once I reframe it ah I was angry

for no good reason right so that is the solution the cognitive part so reframing however you can't do reframing if you don't deal with the emotion first and you can't deal with the emotion if you

don't uh redeploy your attention to calm your mind first so these three have to come together >> there's a question right at the top >> and then we'll come here and I've got

some online and I'm >> Hello. Can I ask your name my friend?

>> Hello. Can I ask your name my friend?

>> My name is Helen.

>> Hello Helen.

>> Do you have a suggestion for coping with grief?

>> Grief. Ah

uh it's hard. Uh I I have I have a suggestion but it's not a it's not necessarily a good one. Uh is uh first the three steps we we talked about,

right? uh starting a deep calming the

right? uh starting a deep calming the mind uh I'll tell we tell a story but calming the mind and then and then doing emotion

and then seeing uh seeing things as they really are and uh also as part of that process allowing you allowing oneself

to suffer because in grief suffering is inevitable. uh if we reject the

inevitable. uh if we reject the suffering I don't want to suffer I don't want to suff I don't want to have this experience the suffering doubles

right so uh if we just see this happens this is life then we experience it using the techniques I talk about then uh and the

way to say it is the only way out is true right just go through it I can tell a story it could be a long story okay >> we have other questions to fit in. So,

>> okay. Okay. Uh,

maybe I won't tell a story because it's too long. Okay, I'll take I hope that

too long. Okay, I'll take I hope that helps, Al. Thank you.

helps, Al. Thank you.

>> Um, there was a question at the front here and then I'll take a couple from online and then I've seen a few others.

>> Hello. Um,

>> question my friend >> Alli.

>> Hello, Allie.

>> Hi. Yeah, I'm just curious as to why you think you were dep so depressed as a as a young man, as a child.

>> Uh, the real answer is I don't know even as an adult. But I can tell you how I experienced it at that time. Uh I the way I experienced it is I was worthless.

I unworthy of love.

That's how I experience it. Yeah. And

and and being a coward. Maybe maybe it worse.

Uh and also it was always dark. I always

felt dark. There's a darkness inside me all the time. and and uh what it took to get out of darkness was the meditation practice that allowed me to accept the joy that's inside. Oh, oh, by the way, I

want to say something about that about the joy that's inside. So, uh earlier I talked about this when I had this meditation and then I just felt joy in the body and it become demand. So, even

after I could do that, it made no sense like how why and I asked I asked a master and I got the answer that I think the right answer. Uh the master says the

reason is uh the reason the calm and clear mind is always joyful is because joy is the default state of mind. So

therefore when your mind is calm and clear all it does is return it natural state and natural state is joy.

And and the implication of that is that we don't have to pursue happiness. It's

already there. All we have to do is to uh gently move away the barriers between ourselves and our innate happiness. So

for example, this feeling that I'm useless, I'm worthless.

>> Gently push it aside and the joy is there.

>> My mother always used to say that you shouldn't talk about um the pursuit of happiness, but the happiness of pursuit.

>> Oh, and that thinking of it as a sort of the joy in trying to you know achieve things internally or externally was much more the purpose. Um, can I bring in a couple of questions from online and then we'll come back to to people in the room. So, uh, Glenn

room. So, uh, Glenn >> Milstein, >> um, comes back to the tech themes and says, "Today, the machines of AI and cryptocurrency are polluting our water and air and quiet.

>> This harms our safety, well-being, and world peace.

>> From your lived expertise, how do we battle the external corporate and political sources of this harm?

>> Are your techniques up to some of those big challenges of our time?" Oh,

battling the the the giants.

Ah, uh I I have a naive answer, but it's fairly naive. And and so when when I started on

naive. And and so when when I started on this work, uh my my assumption is that we are all good. And but if we scale inner peace, inner joy and compassion,

the goodness becomes even stronger. And

then when the group and it scale like a large number billions of people then we form a force together that nothing can

stop us.

Yeah. So that was my naive assumption and uh I don't know whether that's true but uh that I think for me I think that was still the I'm hoping that's still

the solution that through doing this work through helping people finding their own inner joy in the inner peace inner joy and and compassion we can create a world where I mean we don't we

don't stand those things anymore we don't stand like the damage done by crypto and whatever else we all stand together and say this is wrong. Yeah,

but I don't know how to get there. So I

I apologize. I don't know the answer.

>> And it also links with a question from from Cliff Red and I'll come back to the room. Um who says, "Look, there's always

room. Um who says, "Look, there's always good and bad in life, whether you're looking at macro global inner things. So

how do you keep that balance in a philosophy of joy on demand?

>> Good and bad in life." Uh

I'm guessing when you say good and bad, you mean uh pleasant and unpleasant experiences. That's that's what I mean.

experiences. That's that's what I mean.

Just mean by good and bad, I guess.

Uh so for me uh begins with the the first part which is finding the joy in you right and then once you have the joy inside you already a lot of those

unpleasant experiences uh seem better okay let me let me let me let me say that again so if if you can find the joy inside you and then I want to for those of you who who can do that already I

want to suggest more micro practices. So

one of the micro practices is to just appreciate everything. So for example as

appreciate everything. So for example as you walk out what do you appreciate? I

can walk without pain. I mean for those of you who are not walking without pain I can walk without pain right. And then

when I'm drinking water, I have access to water. And how you know how valuable this is that for countless generations people, you know, how hard is to find water, clean water, you can

drink without dying. I have access to this. I take it for granted. So, so the

this. I take it for granted. So, so the exercise is this. Don't take it for granted. Try it out. So if you do that

granted. Try it out. So if you do that right if you have already have inner joy in you uh you find three things happening the first thing is that all

the pleasant experiences double become even more pleasant right because because you're there why because you're there to enjoy it right I'm I'm here my new

friend Julian right I mean because I'm here present with you it makes this interaction even more pleasant right so that's one neutral experiences become pleasant

What does that mean? That mean what is neutral? This is so neutral. I'm not

neutral? This is so neutral. I'm not

drinking water.

But suddenly it became pleasant. Why?

Because I'm appreciating it. I had

thirst before and now I my thirst went away.

Wow, that's so nice. That's I'm so happy and I have access to water. I'm so

happy. Right. So that's two. And the

third thing that happened I think even more powerful is that painful experiences become manageable.

manageable. Why? Because you have that joy. And and the way I I think about it,

joy. And and the way I I think about it, it's like it's like scaffolding. It's

like uh uh putting a cast around a leg, right? So So I find that the joy doesn't

right? So So I find that the joy doesn't displace the pain. The pain is still there. But when I when I'm joyful in in

there. But when I when I'm joyful in in the middle of pain, it's I'm I'm protected. And because I'm protected, I

protected. And because I'm protected, I have time to heal.

So that's my suggestion.

>> I'll come back to the room. There's a

question up there and a question over there.

I see one right at the back as well.

Right.

>> Your name, my friend.

>> Yes. Thank you for a nice talk. My

name's Lavender.

>> And I wanted to know if you have any tips for like a student that's like still young or like any tips that you would like to tell like uh younger your younger self >> and also the academic life and

mindfulness.

>> My younger self. Okay. Uh so one time I was asked a very specific question. If

you can go by in time and tell your younger self three words, what will be the three words? And my three words are don't sell Google.

But that doesn't apply to you.

So uh more more generically uh uh how should I put it? So uh when when one of my teachers uh she said she learned meditation uh when when she was

undergraduate. So I mean somebody even

undergraduate. So I mean somebody even older than me. So back then it was even harder to learn but she learned it and she said after she learned it she was in UCLA after she learned it she never got

a grade below an A. Yeah. And why so and and there there are studies that replicate some version of that. So one

study for example was uh they took a population a random population randomly assign it so that uh half of them uh did

10 minutes or 20 minutes of of mindfulness a day for 5 days. So their

entire lifetime practice was 100 minutes and then compared to a control group that didn't do it and then they took the SATs and there was a there was a

measurable difference 100 minutes not even like hours like not even like 10,000 hours so uh and I want to argue the reason it works because the breath

is so boring right so if you keep bringing attention back to the breath you develop the muscles of the brain here the the part of brain associated attention that allows you to keep your

attention in one place, right? Rather

than the scattering now you now you the power to do this because you've been training. It's not magic. It's just

training. It's not magic. It's just

training and because you can do this material that is difficult, boring, whatever you can read through and because of that your grades are better.

So my suggestion to young people is to try doing try doing the mindfulness practices. I mean you can read my book

practices. I mean you can read my book but you don't have to. You can learn from other places. Yeah. But my book is better.

Yeah. And then I'll do the exercises. I

don't have doesn't have to be a lot.

Like 20 minutes a day. Even if that's too long, 10 minutes. Even if that's too long, do five, right? If that's too long to two minutes a day, right? 2 minutes a day over 100 days. I mean over like 50

days is 100 minutes, right? And then uh yes, I hope that will help in your grades.

>> That's it. There's a question right at the front there.

>> Mhm.

the name my friend. Hi,

>> it's an Yeah, thank you very much indeed for your authentic story. Um, you

mentioned emotional intelligence earlier and in a world that is now reliant on technology, the advancement of AI, um, this seems to be becoming a skill that's

reducing >> um, and it's obviously incredibly important among humans to make sure that we do have that connectivity. Is this

something that can be taught and if so how do we teach it?

>> Yes. Uh definitely could be taught. I

mean the whole the whole assumption behind search inside yourself is that emotional intelligence is trainable. Not

not teachable trainable. It's a it's a training I mean you can't teach you can't teach physical fitness but you can train it. And so how to do that? Uh

train it. And so how to do that? Uh

there are like three big steps. The

first big step is uh ability to master attention. which allows two things

attention. which allows two things allows first thing allows us which we did earlier calm to mind and the more you do it the more the better your ability is to come to mind the second

thing it does which we didn't have time to practice is it increases the resolution of your perception the clarity of perception so what does that mean it means for example remember we

talked about noticing a body the ability to notice very subtle changes in the body in real time and therefore allowing

you uh even uh clo even closer understanding of the process of emotion.

So, so that's step one uh training of attention and then given that foundation the next big step is selfawareness

and selfmastery right so so using that to look at the body and see how it correlates with emotion see how it correlates with situations and then

learning to uh come to mind when things go wrong so so that's and then motivate yourself so that's and the next big step

is uh uh what you call it interpersonal intelligence which means empathy and uh in my mind compassion. Yeah. So so it

and all these things are trainable and it's in the book.

>> Can I take a question just down there?

>> Young person a >> and then I might move behind that.

>> Yes. You're me and my friend.

>> You mentioned about taking away depression and I wondered what is more efficient like doing mindfulness yoga or breathing?

>> Doing mindfulness. Sorry.

>> Mindfulness yoga.

>> Yoga or breathing or breathing. Ah

uh it depends on it depends on the person. So some people find one better

person. So some people find one better than the other. Uh I want to answer a slightly different question and come back to this one. Somebody asked the Dalai Lama what is the best meditation

in the world and the Dalai Lama actually gave an answer which was impressive and Dalama said the the best most the best

meditation in the world is the one you're doing.

So uh yeah so uh there are some people who respond better to just the breath.

There are some people who needs to move the body. So as they're breathing and

the body. So as they're breathing and they're doing yoga, it is it is not better to do that. So uh my suggestion to you is try both and see what works.

And sometimes, by the way, when one things work, sometimes it stop working for a while. You can switch to the other thing and then come back to it later. So

don't be shy to experiment. Uh you you another important principle is in doing practice, there is no such thing as failure. It's just it's just experience.

failure. It's just it's just experience.

That's all. So, yeah, try everything out and whatever works best for you, that's the one.

>> A question right at the back there.

>> I am Josh. Um,

>> not exactly sure how this question is going to go, but I suppose sort of in my own life, I find myself sort of seeing things in quite sort of black and white.

Um, and on kind of one hand, you know, I learned about psychological flexibility and not being quite so rigid in the face of difficult emotions, sensations, and on the other hand, I feel like I sort of

see mindfulness as a way to escape that.

And I kind of just wonder I guess my question is where's the middle ground between those two things?

>> Uh, I like to say that the middle ground is mindfulness. So then you what does

is mindfulness. So then you what does that mean? I will tell you the the

that mean? I will tell you the the result of a of a fascinating experiment.

So this was uh they're teaching mindfulness to people who suffer from uh social effective disorder sad right when they see people they get they get nervous right I mean when they interact

with people they get nervous so if you teach them mindfulness what happens so one prediction is that you tone down their their uh reactivity right then

they then maybe that's how it works right then then you know because then they feel less that's the that's the that's one possible prediction so the experiment was done and then uh it turns

out that uh people who have SAD who did mindfulness training so so normal person in a stressful social situation they got stressed and then and then it takes a

long time to recover or somebody who has been trained in mindfulness for like eight weeks or whatever you see that their uh reaction actually comes even

earlier right however it recovers much much more quickly Okay, which means what? Which

means that we are not we are not making the person uh feel less. We're actually

making the person feel more which is why the person is more sensitized and react earlier. However, more importantly, the

earlier. However, more importantly, the person is learning to recover quickly and that's why it became no longer a problem. And and one one analogy is d is

problem. And and one one analogy is d is competitive dancing or figure skating like in in those sports the secret is not staying stable. The secret is the

ability to recover, right? I mean, a good dancer, a good competitive dancer is always in a state of instability and it's because she can recover. That's why

she can pull the moves that she does.

And it's the same way the mindfulness allows you to perceive more clearly and recover. We're beginning to run out of

recover. We're beginning to run out of time, but I'd quite like to fit in a couple of things quickly. So, um,

firstly, um, this question from Shane online, perhaps a quick one. Uh, hi

Mang. My question is whether you as an experienced meditator still have a formal meditation practice.

>> Yeah. Yes, of course. You you need one.

Yeah. Uh, yeah. An hour a day. Uh,

except when I'm traveling then my my practice is screwed.

>> So, an hour in a day except when traveling. There's then a quick question

traveling. There's then a quick question hopefully from the top there.

>> Hi there. Um, my name is Tatiana. Thank

you so much. This is an excellent talk.

I wanted to ask you about what you believe the role of community is for mindfulness in terms of this is a bigger project the hundred >> billion um you know the community and

how that fits with the individual.

>> Yes. Uh so the the Buddha had a a student called Ananda and he wasn't enlightened by the that time and Ananda thought he figured it out. He went to go so proud of himself. He said I said but

I figured it out. I figured out half of holy life is my practice and the other half is community. I mean community is that important. It's half of a holy

that important. It's half of a holy life. And the Buddha looked at me and

life. And the Buddha looked at me and said, "No, Ananda, you're wrong. The

entirety of the holy life is community."

So it is that important is community is what allows us to practice.

>> Um I'm going to take very quick questions. There's one sort of right at

questions. There's one sort of right at the far side there. Uh there was one here >> and then that we'll have to see whether that may be it.

>> Okay. I'll try to I'll try to speak quickly.

>> Hi, I'm Ian. Really really great talk.

If your the program you talked about had been at Google from the very very beginning of Google, how do you think Google will be different now? Would it

be different now? uh actually it would not it's not the the pro the problem is not whether it was should be in the beginning was how whether it was sustained after I left because I'm not I

have no visibility into that and I again I don't know the answer but I would I would think that uh if if people have more self-awareness

and uh and more compassion they make better decisions that's all I can say >> if you have any startups you know here's a program you should in your startup. A

very quick question from here if we can.

>> By the way, yeah, I think there's one startup boot camp where search inside is part of the curriculum. I can't remember which one.

>> Hi, I'm Mandy. Um, just a quick question. So, I I'm about to graduate

question. So, I I'm about to graduate from Cambridge and there are just a lot of things in life. So, what do you chase for in your life like either from the Buddhist point of view or like um your experience? Yeah.

experience? Yeah.

>> For me?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. I was I was I I'll suggest something for you first and then I'll tell you what for me. Uh for for young people actually I suggest that uh if

you're in your 20s uh work hard yeah I mean it try to like do the worldly stuff because that's otherwise when you reach your 30s your energies start to fade

right. So, so that's my suggestion and

right. So, so that's my suggestion and and also of course your practice, right?

Because the practice of mindfulness allows you in addition to making you happy and kind and and peaceful allows you to be more successful. So after

that, okay, now that in your 30s, what happens? Uh so for me, I I made a

happens? Uh so for me, I I made a decision that uh for me it's very easy what what I do in my life. I see myself as a servant of Buddha and Dharma and I

dedicate the rest of my life to serving Buddha and Dharma. That's that's all.

Everything else is either a detail or a distraction.

Um >> I know there's a few questions online and on here, but I I can't resist doing this this one from John Gre. Okay. Um

who who firstly wants to talk about world peace and he firstly uh talks about Rotary where part of their phrase is peace the world over and whether you've done things there. But then asked a fascinating question you may or may

not want to answer. Um the late General Sir Mike Jackson who was head of the British Army, chief of the general staff. John says he was an alpha male.

staff. John says he was an alpha male.

He also went to school here in Cambridge, so there's a a strong local connection. Um, anyway, he apparently

connection. Um, anyway, he apparently said, "There will not be peace in the world until we can neutralize testosterone."

testosterone." And I'm now reading, "How might your work facilitate this?

H wow.

I don't I I'm not sure if that's true."

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. I mean I think uh uh so so I mean I'm also in addition to being Buddhist I'm also Chinese right and and in ch in in Chinese uh culture we believe in

balance in and yang right when one is too much over and when one is too strong and increases the other that's when the problem is right so testosterone is not

the problem the problem is there only testosterone where the ying the the feminine side is not well represented then the problem and vice versa if you have low

testosterone, you only have ying. We

have our own issues. So, I would I would advocate for a balance. And the balance point, my suggestion is compassion.

Whatever is the most compassionate thing to do, that's the right thing to do.

>> Fantastic. We could keep going for many, many hours. I'm sorry to the people who

many hours. I'm sorry to the people who have questions they'd love to ask, but I'm also aware that Mang has has some other things to do this evening. It's a

busy program here in Cambridge, but thank you. It has been an immense honor

thank you. It has been an immense honor to have you here with us, Mang. Thank

you for sharing for to coming to Jesus after you left Cathol Catholic school for Buddhism which you know you finally come back to Jesus. Um but actually I think your messages about well-being you know are things which I think many of us

should percolate on. uh there are people here who I know are students looking forward to their lives who are looking back on things who train others who look after have startups have businesses who

are in HR doing all sorts of different things who I hope will reflect on what you said and you know a spare six seconds to breathe sounds like something we can all do so um if you are interested in more the books are

available for all good bookshops near you and some tech companies I'm sure as well um there also courses so I know the Cambridge Buddha center runs mindfulness-based uh courses there are a number of others here in Cambridge or

wherever you are online. But men, thank you so much for being with us and and for sharing your thoughts and time here.

>> Thank you for having me and thank you all of you for having me.

[Applause]