The Charisma Coach: Why Trump Never Apologizes - How To Build INSANE Confidence Fast!

One of the things that is most effective for influence is conviction. We live in a sense of uncertainty and so a lot of people are looking for something that seems stable

>> is trying to convince the public to have a recession. Let's have a recession.

a recession. Let's have a recession.

>> It is the degree to which you believe and can subcommunicate with your tone, your body language that you are internally aligned with the things that you are saying. So if you were to simply

define charisma in one sentence, how would you define it? And then why is it important? It is the gate. It's how your

important? It is the gate. It's how your energy, words, and body language all align in a way so people think I want to follow this person. I believe in what they believe in.

>> We choose to go to the moon and this decade and do the other thing. Not

because they are easy, but because they are hard.

>> It builds trust and it turns ideas into movement. And if someone wants to be

movement. And if someone wants to be more charismatic in 24 hours, how do they start, dude? Yes. So,

Charlie Hoopert, thank you so much for coming on the Iced Coffee Hour podcast.

You are the owner and creator of one of my favorite channels on YouTube, Charisma on Command.

>> Oh, thank you, man. So good to be here with both of you. Can I tell you a story real quick?

>> Yeah. When I met Jack and I also met you at VidCon, >> I didn't know that Jack was associated with Ice Coffee Hour, but I remember one of the first things that I thought about you and I commented to my co-founder. I

was like, "That guy is super charismatic and the way you handled it, we can talk about it perhaps on the podcast." Uh,

left a lasting impression on both of us.

I don't know if I ever told you that.

>> That's unbelievable. I think you >> I have no idea. You've mentioned that to me before, but I still don't know what I did. I wish I had there was camera in

did. I wish I had there was camera in the room when we met so I could study that and like reenact it.

>> I can tell you a little bit. Chris

Williamson has the same thing. So, you

came in a lot of people in those settings and you've experienced this I'm sure too Graham where you get somebody and they're like a super fan. So they

come in and they're complimentary and it's nice at first and then it's too much and they're sort of following you around the event. They've got a trillion questions. They're like, "Hey, remember

questions. They're like, "Hey, remember that video that you did on XYZ topic?"

And then it just keeps going. Then

there's another type of person who is too cool. They don't want to let you

too cool. They don't want to let you know that they admire what you do. So

maybe they've seen a hundred videos, but like, "Oh, I think I've heard of that."

And you you were like this perfect balance of familiar, friendly, complimentary about the thing, but also not seeking my approval or trying to win

me over and then you beat my ass in poker and like we're not did not go easy on me or anything like that.

>> That's funny.

>> Which is very rare in an event like that. It's very rare because the other

that. It's very rare because the other two are so much more common when people see someone that they've recognized from the internet or something like that.

>> That's interesting. So, aside from me then, who would you say is the most charismatic person alive? Alive?

>> Yeah.

>> Honestly, and I I have to give it to Donald Trump.

>> Really?

>> I don't think that he could have won the presidency based on his track record or, you know, there's a lot of other people with a lot of money. The thing that won him the election was the way that he handled the media. Now granted, I'm not

saying that he's going to walk into a room and he's going to make 100% of the people there like him, but if you look at the spending that he did in both the elections that he did win, he came in

hundreds of millions of dollars less than the Democratic candidate. And so

the ability to get the news cycle on him, make the both elections about the things that he wanted to. So the wall for instance was not at all a topic. He

yeah, he defined culture and has defined culture for about 10 years. So, not my style of charisma, but in terms of people whose personalities have just catapulted them to stardom, fame and

power. I mean, I have to give it.

power. I mean, I have to give it.

>> What makes him so successful at that though, so good at that?

>> Yeah, there's a number of things. I

think he came up in a time period where everyone collectively was, what was the phrase that he had at the time?

Politically correct. Mhm.

>> So we had a huge social change where everyone you're not allowed to say these words, you can't do these sorts of things. Colonialism bad. Like there were

things. Colonialism bad. Like there were all of these sorts of cultural shifts happening and a lot of people weren't on board with it, but they didn't have the courage in their workplace or their friend group to say it. They whispered

it across the dinner table.

>> He had the guts to come down an escalator and just yell it into a microphone. So not that thing in

microphone. So not that thing in particular, but the willingness to say what other people won't state that is present in the room. There's like six core charismatic mindsets that I talk

about. That is the sixth one. The

about. That is the sixth one. The

willingness to go there first and that was something that he did. And then he defined the election and the everything.

>> Here's what I'm curious about. How does

some people get away with that and others can't?

>> There's a very you get away with it or do you think you >> No. No. To that degree, absolutely not.

>> No. No. To that degree, absolutely not.

I get away with some, but if you told me I have to do that, I couldn't get away with it.

>> Yeah. I think it's about, this is another charismatic mindset, it's it's internal integrity. So, like, is every

internal integrity. So, like, is every piece of your psychology on board with what you're saying? Because one of the thing, if you look at a good comedian versus a bad comedian, it's not that the good comedian immediately makes you

laugh. It's that they tell a joke, the

laugh. It's that they tell a joke, the audience doesn't react, but they're not checking with the audience. They're

doubling down. They're adding tags and they win the audience over time. So if

you listen to Dave Chappelle, it's not just a laugh fest throughout his stories. He's but he's patient enough to

stories. He's but he's patient enough to get the audience there. If you gave someone else Dave Chappelle's material and they said it word for word, they'd rush through it. They'd look to the audience desperately hoping that they'd

laughed. They'd adjust course and try to

laughed. They'd adjust course and try to change for them because they're not internally behind the story and comfortable and confident enough to say it. So in your case, I imagine that you

it. So in your case, I imagine that you might say something that you believe but then see that other people react like and then pull back on it or say, "Ah, that's not exactly what I meant." And

it's actually that wavering >> that is the thing that makes people fall off versus Donald Trump. I mean

certainly a lot of people don't like him, but the thing that he does activate that is admirable to a lot of his core fans is the fact that he has such power

and conviction to say what he thinks, stick with it, and not adjust even the face of glaring evidence to the >> opposite. Do you think he's born like

>> opposite. Do you think he's born like that? Cuz some people just have this

that? Cuz some people just have this natural ability where they just come out of the womb and they're just so charismatic and they just got that thing. M I see I look back at his old

thing. M I see I look back at his old interviews and I could see the same sort of bravado there. I think that there's a lot of early childhood experiences that define how people respond in social

circumstances. And I think in I don't

circumstances. And I think in I don't know the details of his life, but I think probably pretty early on he learned that the way to get through life was to to stick by his own internal

sense of things and force reality to conform to him versus other people. And

I put myself in this category. learned

that the best way to get by is to pay attention to how other people are responding to you and try to massage or like make sure that everyone else is feeling good all the time. Donald Trump

is not trying to make anybody feel good.

>> The one that I thought was incredible, did you see the video with him and mom Donnie?

>> Oh, I saw a little bit of that >> the White House where he taps him on the back. Yeah, it's okay.

back. Yeah, it's okay.

>> That was incredible in terms of just the way he stood, >> the attitude he had. What was your take on that? What I notic about Donald Trump

on that? What I notic about Donald Trump is that there's again broadly and I've studied a lot of different people over the course of these years. There's two

different types of ways that people handle language. The first type tries to

handle language. The first type tries to make their language as precise and accurate to reality as possible. These

are like people like me, philosophy majors, and I try to be truthful and that is a higher order. Then there are people who use language to create change in the world. Donald Trump is that kind

of a person. So you see it in a lot of ways like him declaring that he won the 2020 election and declaring and declaring and declaring it's not because I don't I don't think he's oriented towards what the facts on the ground

are. I think he's oriented to what

are. I think he's oriented to what works. So similarly when somebody says

works. So similarly when somebody says something mean about him. The question

isn't oh my god has this person offended me and they've ruined it. It's how is this for our alliance? And so when he's standing next to Mum Donnie and you see how Trump will in a race, this happened

with Hillary or it happened with uh this happened with Marco Rubio who now works with him. All the guys that he destroyed

with him. All the guys that he destroyed in the Republican primary, he had the worst things to say about Lion Ted, you know, little Marco. Like it was he just

shredded these guys. And then as soon as he won the primary, it was we have to come together as a party. We're all one.

And it's because he's not using language to create a truthful representation of his inner world. He's using language to create change in the world around him.

So before Zoran wins, he's the worst thing that could ever happen to New York. He's going to destroy the entire

York. He's going to destroy the entire town. We're all ruined. Then he's won.

town. We're all ruined. Then he's won.

Well, now we got to be allies cuz he's in power. And you know, we can you can

in power. And you know, we can you can say whatever you want about me. It

doesn't matter as long as we make the changes that I want to have happen on the ground a reality. So to sum all of that up, it sounds like it doesn't matter what you say, it just matters how

you say it. That Yeah. Is that

everything?

>> It's not everything. But again, having studied a ton of people, made 300 plus videos, I would say unfortunately, and I don't love this as a philosophy major, but one of the things that is most

effective for influence is conviction.

It is the degree to which you believe and can subcommunicate with your tone, your body language that you are internally aligned with the things that you are saying. Because so many of us, we live in a sense of uncertainty. We

don't know what we're doing with our lives. Like we all know that internally

lives. Like we all know that internally we have a ton of doubt. And so a lot of people are looking for something that seems stable. And so when a woman for

seems stable. And so when a woman for instance sees a guy who seems very comfortable talking to other women, she's not judging, oh, is does he have all the things that I need? She says,

oh, he thinks that he has all the things that make him appropriate or worthy or whatever. And we're judging how people

whatever. And we're judging how people seem to subcommunicate that they feel about the things that they say and how they feel about themselves. So that's

why conviction is such an important aspect of charisma of influence.

>> So if you were to simply define charisma in one sentence, how would you define it? And then why is it important?

it? And then why is it important?

>> So I would there's a couple of ways and it's shifted uh over the years for me. I

first defined it as influence. Like

charisma is anything that is leadership in a group of people and I exempt from that beauty uh wealth and competence are the main things that I just don't include because we all know that if someone is really beautiful or really

wealthy or extremely competent, they can have a personality that's a dud and people will still be influenced by their product to do what they say to do. But

outside of that, you have everything within the realm of personality that makes someone want to follow you, that sort of a thing. I would say as I've gotten older, that is a more external

facing view of charisma. It's about how people respond to you. And we all, you know, this is what RZ is for the kids today.

>> The the internal facing thing is how aligned you are with the deepest part of yourself. And it I'm I've been on a little spiritual journey these days. We don't have to go super deep

days. We don't have to go super deep into it, but I think as you get older, your sense of identity deepens. And so

when you're young, your identity is I'm my achievements or I am all of these things. As you get older, it becomes

things. As you get older, it becomes something more profound than that. And

charisma is how clearly and fully you are inhabiting what you know yourself to be in essence. And I

know that can sound >> that's really interesting because from like I know this we're getting a little out on a tangent right here but like the spiritual readings I've done it's not good to align with strict identities

>> but charisma is something I feel like is objectively good if you can influence people >> which is the reality of charisma but at the same time the things you identify with are the things that are effectively

a weakness dude.

>> Yes. So

the things that we identify with over the course of our life, we we've gotten pretty deep pretty quick. So you tell me if we want to go this way.

>> When we're young, we tend to identify as like I'm smart or I'm cool or I am these things. And you're right, these forms of

things. And you're right, these forms of identity become cages. They also become super helpful because if I think, oh, I'm the [ __ ] I'm a really cool guy, that helps me have the conviction to go up and apply for the job that I don't

belong in or to talk to the girl that somebody else might disqualify themselves from speaking to. But those

become cages because then you have to be cool. And the moment that you're not

cool. And the moment that you're not smart, you start to beat yourself up. So

as you get older, it's not just I am cool, I am smart, I am my achievements, but it's more a sense of uh identifying with your soul or your spirit or this ineffable yet persistent aspect of

yourself. And that's the part that I

yourself. And that's the part that I think the great spiritual teachings of whether you're going with Buddhism or Christianity or anything if you go to the mystics in any tradition they do

identify this eternal aspect of oneself and the people that identif and if you want to go who's the most charismatic people of all time you have to give it to Buddha to Jesus to these people that

have completely reshaped the planet essentially because they were deeply aligned with something inside of themselves and the way they conducted themselves was so inspirational.

that they bent the course of history around them. What's the difference

around them. What's the difference between that though and confidence? An

early stage of confidence, any confidence, if you look at the word like confide, it the etmology of confidence is trust. So when we think about

is trust. So when we think about self-confidence, it's really self-rust.

And the question is how deep is your trust? So all of us are very confident

trust? So all of us are very confident that if we had to for $100, we could tie our shoe effectively. And that

confidence comes from the fact that we've done it a trillion times or you know however many times we've had to tie our shoes in our life. But then the question is how come some people are

confident in domains that they've never experienced before. This is the first

experienced before. This is the first charismatic mindset which is this is not confidence that I know how to do this.

It's going to go well. This is

confidence that no matter what happens I'll be okay. I'll figure it out. So

it's a more profound confidence. Whereas

that first confidence is only in domains where I have experience because I know I can make it go good. There's a deeper confidence that no matter what happens,

I will be okay. And that is a sort of a uh a deeper charismatic pose that one can take. But even beyond that, so let

can take. But even beyond that, so let me step back the we were comparing confidence to what was to charisma.

>> I think that at root they become the same and then it's But at the surface level, one of the things that can shift is that you can be

deeply confident but not be received car as a charismatic person by others. Like

I can be super confident in my ability to >> conduct this podcast, but everybody watching it might think that it's going terribly or something like that. So

confidence is about an internal sense of alignment and charisma is how that internal alignment translates both internally and to the people that are experiencing you. And if someone wants

experiencing you. And if someone wants to be more charismatic in 24 hours, how do they start? I would focus on the areas that are going to come up every single day. So, unfortunately, what a

single day. So, unfortunately, what a lot of people do is they decide they want to be charismatic when they land a date with the person that they're most interested in or they have a job interview coming up for the dream company. It's a little bit late at that

company. It's a little bit late at that point. You can still prep. But if you

point. You can still prep. But if you want to do it today, the thing that is almost certainly going to happen, no matter who you are, is that you are going to meet a stranger or a person that you already recognize and you're going to say, "How are you doing?"

They're going to say, "How are you back?" So when I start with people, I

back?" So when I start with people, I start with first impressions.

The first entire week of our course is about this stuff. But basically what I would recommend is when somebody says, "How are you doing?" Find a way to be better than good. And so the most common

response that I would give is, "Oh, I'm fine. How are you?" or "Busy or good."

fine. How are you?" or "Busy or good."

And then the entire conversation just deflates at that point because now we're into >> did you see the Dodgers won? Crazy

weather we're having lately, right? All

the the dreaded small talk conversation we all have. If you can inject more energy at that onset when somebody says, "How are you doing?" You can be phenomenal or or tell a crazy story that you just had. You're not going to

believe what just happened to me out there. The entire arc of the

there. The entire arc of the conversation shifts. So that would be

conversation shifts. So that would be the simplest way to do it. You said in 24 hours. That would be where I would

24 hours. That would be where I would start. What if you're not doing good?

start. What if you're not doing good?

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doing good? Yo, great question. Great

question.

there's a bit of uh calibration required. So if it's a cashier and they

required. So if it's a cashier and they say how you're doing, you're like, "Let me tell you, not appropriate." But we've hung out a couple times. So if I wasn't doing good and I came in here and it's just the three of us, I think it's very

charismatic to to lead with some vulnerability in those closer relationships. In fact, that is how

relationships. In fact, that is how loose acquaintances become close friends a lot of the time is there is some experience of either shared victory or shared vulnerability. And so if I wasn't

shared vulnerability. And so if I wasn't doing good and I rolled in, you're like, "Hey, what's up, man?" You're like, "How you doing?" I was like, "Dude, I just

you doing?" I was like, "Dude, I just broke up with my girlfriend. I'm kind of having a hard time," which is not the case. Now, we at least are talking about

case. Now, we at least are talking about something real. But if I fake it at that

something real. But if I fake it at that point, I'm like, "Good." You know, smiling through the tears, the crying clown, that also is going to create an issue. So, I'm glad you asked. Yes.

issue. So, I'm glad you asked. Yes.

>> Yeah. You could tell not every cell in your body is aligned.

>> Correct. Correct. It's that lack of coherence and conviction. But if you're trying to build a loose acquaintance, let's say, and she asks you how you're doing or he >> either or

>> do you do you lie if you're really not doing well or do you just always be like, you know what, I am you be honest with yourself. So horrible.

with yourself. So horrible.

>> You could imagine there's so many ways to tell the truth. Let's say like stuff is going on in your life, but it's not that I am bad. It's that

>> there are challenges. There are things that are going crazy. There's things I'm confused about. The way that you bring

confused about. The way that you bring it does not have to be consolidated into a single word. You'd be like, "Honestly, this has been the craziest week in the last year." That's an interesting way to

last year." That's an interesting way to start a conversation right there. So,

it's not that you are forced into depression or enthusiasm. It's that if you can find a way to share it with someone in a way that is engaging and we can go into storytelling and all these

other sorts of things, that is also better than a flat fine or good. So, I

would say preferable. What about vocal tonality?

>> How much does that matter?

>> Tremendously. But I don't encourage people to focus too much on these things. So I there was a time in my

things. So I there was a time in my charisma career, if you will, where I was very shy and didn't know what to do.

And I would go in and be like, "Okay, today I'm going to work on this gesture."

gesture." >> Serious to the Well, the one thing that I saw wasn't that is I I remember some guy told me a story had very firm fingers when he did it. I was like, "That was really captivating." So then

for the next several days I was like holding my fingers more firmly. I think

that level of >> So would you go out and fully just try to observe the way people spoke?

>> Yeah. I was I was a wallflower. That was

I think why I got into this work was primarily I had experiences where and I've told this story many times but it's apocryphal and true. I was visiting my co-founder as he was studying abroad and

he had me as his best friend from high school and he had his college best friend. So I went in, I was like, I'm

friend. So I went in, I was like, I'm not going to like this guy. We're going

to have issues. And he came in and his demeanor was so immediately friendly and disarming and I felt included. And he

asked me, so immediately I liked him. We

were in a group of six guys. And at one point, I was like, "Hey, who's hungry?

We should go out to eat." And I didn't know these guys. And I got no response.

And about 35 seconds later, he goes, "I'm feeling hungry. Who's who's ready to eat?" And everyone was like, "Yeah."

to eat?" And everyone was like, "Yeah."

And I watched for the rest of the day.

That happened. It happened twice. It was

once with food and once I told a joke and he just repeated it and I watched no one care when I said it and everyone get behind it when he said it. So like these these moments were defining for me in

terms of recognizing that this is something that I wanted to focus on cuz I realized if you looked at a script there was nothing wrong with my words.

It was the tonality the rapport that I hadn't built with this group of people that I needed to focus on. So I was watching all of this happen. So through

trial and error with a litany of R, you know, stuff like this or you know your famous like open contact, what are the most underrated and overrated tips and tricks for increasing your charisma?

>> Underrated is the the one that I've already told you is is how you initiate conversation and the level of enthusiasm that you bring to it. Underrated is

preparation versus inperson. We've all

been there frozen in an interview or in a conversation or anything. The thing

that helps the most is priming. And

people don't do this or they sometimes do it, but it's unconscious where you listen to the music that you love on the car ride over to the event and you're like fist bumping and you're pounding and you're singing out loud.

>> I used to do this with my co-founder walking into a club. A lot of guys, cuz we were young dudes and we wanted to flirt and talk to girls. A lot of guys think it's showtime when you see her and you walk up to her. It's showtime when

you're getting ready. It's showtime when you're in the cab on the way there. It's

the door man. Every single interaction you have there, the level of energy and enthusiasm that you bring to it sets it up so that everything that happens after that is easy. And it's true in interviews as well. I remember going

into the job that I wound up working at.

Everybody sits in that little lobby with the secretary and they sit quietly with their little leather pad and their resume there and they don't talk to anybody and instead I talked to the doorman at the building and then I spoke

with the receptionist and I made small talk with the other people that were applying for the job. So by the time that I landed in the interview and he said tell me about yourself. I wasn't

going in cold. There was this uh there was a depth of quality to my voice. So

it wasn't like, "Hey, how are you?" Like

frozen. That priming is deeply deeply underrated. That's fascinating. And I

underrated. That's fascinating. And I

always apply what you're saying and internalize it and think, how have I tried doing something similar in my own life? And what I always love to do is

life? And what I always love to do is every time I get into an elevator, everyone's dead quiet. Yeah.

>> We're all, you know, going somewhere. We

don't want to talk. Everyone's head's

down or they're on their phone. And

every time it's my favorite thing to break the silence >> because you fart and Yeah. I just rip one.

>> Yeah. Awful.

>> Sorry guys. He blames it on the other guy.

>> If you break silence in an elevator, first of all, it's very challenging because it's super outside of, you know, what we consider to be normal.

>> And it's easy because everyone leaves the elevator and goes to their own place. So like there's a clear light at

place. So like there's a clear light at the end of the tunnel. If your joke falls flat or if no one wants to talk, it's fine because we're all separating anyways. Whereas if you're like sitting

anyways. Whereas if you're like sitting down in a lobby and you want to strike up conversation with someone and then they don't want to talk, it's like, well, when do I walk away, but in an elevator, you're always going somewhere, you're just priming yourself to go out

and talk to people. I think that insight is so true of modern society broadly. A

lot of the fears that we have are because evolutionarily we grew up in tribes of 150 people and if you got weird with like 15 of them, it was a huge issue. We're just not wired for

huge issue. We're just not wired for that experience of you get this practice chance, everybody's going to disperse and dispand. It doesn't matter. And this

and dispand. It doesn't matter. And this

happens constantly in our lives. We have

an elementary school, then we go to a middle school that's different, or we leave states. You get so many chances to

leave states. You get so many chances to play around with this stuff and reinvent yourself and try new stuff. It's kind of a hack that people haven't fully internalized of the modern world is how

low stakes most social environments are compared to how they feel internally.

And if you can get that, it's a game changer. What about posture?

changer. What about posture?

>> They say sit up straight and like uh you know have your shoulders back a little bit.

>> The thing that I and I've you know I've done this in the past and I've got poor core strength and all this stuff, but what I what I try to pay attention to the only thing that I keep in mind with posture is is to try to have open body

language. Not even so much that the

language. Not even so much that the other person likes it, but because there's an internal feedback loop. Like

if I were to sit here like this and speak more quietly for a few minutes, it wouldn't be long before I felt shy and uncomfortable around you guys. But if I open up my body language, I show you my

palms, I let you see the insides of my elbows, I lift my chest and my chin a little bit, that sends a feedback loop to me that says, "Hey, you're safe.

There's no arrows being thrown at you.

You can expose your vulnerable spots, which makes you much more comfortable."

And a brief story about this is I uh way long time ago when I had a job, I had screwed something up pretty badly. It

was my fault on a Friday afternoon and on a Monday I got the phone call of like the guy started the call with you really [ __ ] to bed on Friday.

And I had the I was I was in the uh my friend's apartment at the time because I was living with him on the floor and I remember purposely I knew this call was coming. So, I was sat in a chair and I

coming. So, I was sat in a chair and I purposely opened up my body language to just sort of like let myself ground and calm down. And through that and saying,

calm down. And through that and saying, "You're right. I did do that. I

"You're right. I did do that. I

understand that that was not cool for you guys and that it put you guys in a bad position and I apologize for that."

It was a minute or two of him just like dumping, venting a little bit before he's like, "It's all right, man. I'm

going to tell the I'm going to tell the higherup boss that, you know, it's all okay and we made it work and so don't sweat it. it's totally not a problem.

sweat it. it's totally not a problem.

Versus if I had been defensive about it in my body language and in my demeanor, he definitely would have kept drilling in attacking and we would have been on opposite sides and it could have gone far far worse. So that open body

language is it's about the only thing that I pay close attention to in my own body language.

>> How important is eye contact?

>> Deeply very it's also another one that's like now that I'm conscious of it, it's like oh I have to look. It's really

tough because when you become conscious of it, it distracts from your ability to be yourself a lot of the time. So, I

would practice body language when I went out. It makes a big difference. Like, if

out. It makes a big difference. Like, if

if you've ever spoken to someone who's telling you a story and they won't let you go, one, it can feel I'll do it to you for a little bit. It can feel a little bit uncomfortable, >> but it has that tractor beam level quality. Bill Clinton is one of the best

quality. Bill Clinton is one of the best that I've ever ever seen at this. I did

a video. It was my first ever charisma video that where he is in a town hall.

Woman asks a question and he just lasers in on her with the squinty eyes. He's

smising at her the whole time and you can tell that he's just got her because this is the feeling of presence. Nothing

communicates that I'm with you like eye contact. It's why in the more hippie

contact. It's why in the more hippie circles they'll do eye gazing stuff because that simple act of sitting with someone and looking them sustained in the eye is just it's a powerful experience of presence with another human.

>> If you develop the capacity to do that not as a gimmick so so powerful incredibly. And what do you think ruins charisma? I think what

there's many things that ruin charisma.

I think paradoxically it's this weird if you try too hard. So, one of the things that I'm always battling when I'm explaining to people that yes, this is a skill that you can develop, but if you

overobsess about this, you're going to go down. So, thinking too much about

go down. So, thinking too much about yourself will make you self-conscious.

So, generally, you only want to have one thing that you're working on at any given time. It should be easy. It should

given time. It should be easy. It should

be a set it and forget it. Let me uh use this phrase once at the beginning of conversation. let me focus a bit on eye

conversation. let me focus a bit on eye contact or cut out filler words for a portion of this conversation. But if you overload yourself with stuff that you're supposed to do, which is really what a lot of shy people are subtly doing when

they're at a party or an event that they keep thinking about what they ought to be doing, that will crush your charisma internally.

>> Is that why nice guys finish last?

>> Nice guys finish last for a multitude of reasons. Uh it's because nice is

reasons. Uh it's because nice is actually not nice. It's often a peopleleasing strategy to get what you want in an indirect way. So the nice guy

cliche is really what he wants is a girlfriend or to kiss her or something like that, but he's going to pretend that he's available for a genuine friendship instead. So the reason that

friendship instead. So the reason that that nice guy is finishing last is because he's not behaving in a clear, honest, direct way and he's not asserting himself in a way that could possibly be perceived as confident or

high conviction. And then he thinks to

high conviction. And then he thinks to himself, "Oh my gosh, I've given her everything and these other guys aren't even nice to her. Why doesn't she like me?" And it's because, well, you're

me?" And it's because, well, you're you're deeply insincere in the way that you're engaging with her.

>> Yeah. But in terms of insincerity, it seems like that also flips that the bad guy >> get all the girls being completely insincere about wanting a relationship or anything. And that and that works.

or anything. And that and that works.

>> Yes. Yes. So

the thing that tends to work with the bad guy, if you will, is that he activates the part of herself that doesn't feel good enough. So what's

going on in those situations where she's chasing the guy is that she has had wounding with her dad or with men at a young age where she feels like if I can get the person who isn't being kind to

me to be kind to me, then I'm going to be enough. And men have this too, right?

be enough. And men have this too, right?

We like look for the person that is least. We'll have all of these people

least. We'll have all of these people who just treat us well, don't need to be coached or trained or anything, but we we focus on the one person who seems just out of reach because that's what we're familiar with from childhood. And

so I actually think that the reason that these quote unquote bad guys in that case, the insincerity of the bad guy, the reason that that is appealing is because it's actually a familiar pattern for a lot unfortunately of men and women

based on how they grew up. Have you seen Homath?

>> Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

because he has the entire breakdown of what triggers attraction and what was it? There's like a dark

it? There's like a dark >> triad, >> a dark triad of personality traits that is highly attractive to the opposite sex.

>> Well, I think that a lot of that uh is targeted at young 20s men and women and is is true of the experience of being a young 20s guy or girl. I think that

there's a whole and I I've spoken to him. I think he would acknowledge this.

him. I think he would acknowledge this.

there's an entire field of love that is not accounted for in any of the diagrams or the ones that he typically references.

Uh but I do think that those types of things are broadly attractive particularly in our society. And I think this is the other thing is that

a lot of those dark triad traits have a light side to them. So I'm not sure what the three are but there's like psychopathy, narcissism and something else. But if you

else. But if you >> Mchavelian >> Mchavelianism >> there is a conviction and we've spoken about conviction already that is often associated with those sorts of traits

that comes through and I think that is the piece that is attractive but if you're high conviction but not psychopathic not narcissistic and not high mchavelian I think you'll do really

really well it's just that uh people women will tolerate that if it comes in a package of he's got other things that she wants high provisioning He talks about he talks about good looks, you know, there's there's a you know height,

the ability to protect and defend muscles, all that kind of stuff adds as well. I think the thing that I would say

well. I think the thing that I would say about that broadly in my experience is that there was a phase of my life where I was trying to optimize for being liked

by women at large. And I understand it.

I don't think that it's a bad phase, but I think that it's incomplete. I think

that there is a significant amount of value towards finding what is most authentically you and being that and accepting that you are going to have fewer people from the

pool interested in that but way more higher >> way more way higher yeah way higher higher quality connection yes versus if

you make yourself broadly appealing to a lot of people you actually have a lot of noise in there and I think homath would acknowledge is you wind up attracting people that don't make good relationship partners versus if you leave there's

there's an argument that people have of should you lead with your best foot forward. I often advocate once you've

forward. I often advocate once you've done the work on yourself, lead with your most average foot forward because you don't want to take her to the restaurant that you're only going to be able to take her to once every two years on the first date. Take her to the place

where you're going to be able to go whenever you go out, right? like be the person that you intend to be 6 months in, 2 years in because that is how you have a more successful relationship. If

your only goal is to get her attracted to you for a moment, yeah, whatever.

Lead with your best foot forward, but it creates problems down the line.

>> And what do you think is more effective for status, being liked or respected?

Respected for sure. Yeah, I think I think essentially status is a measure of if associating with someone improves and

this this is if you really break it down to like evolutionary psychology. If

associating with that person improves your survival and reproductive chances and so respect is that person has a skill or a quality that I admire or that

I has help earned usually.

>> Yes.

>> And so yeah, you look like who's higher status? Well, clearly Donald Trump is

status? Well, clearly Donald Trump is not broadly he's liked by a lot of people but not by everybody. But there's

a lot of respect that is paid to him.

Like his his ability to change the world demands that even people like Surin Manni or u even Zilinsky had to come and pay him respect even if he wasn't feeling it even if he didn't like him.

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recommend it. They get the thumbs up from me. The most overrated charismatic

from me. The most overrated charismatic advice. Huh. I think it's the

advice. Huh. I think it's the enthusiasm. I'm sorry. I have to I have

enthusiasm. I'm sorry. I have to I have to disagree with that because I think that enthusiasm is sort of contrived in the same way that I'm a firm believer that if you are unwavering that's the most thing that you could do.

>> But if I'm like going up to a barista and I'm like I'm having the best day ever. She's like like this guy's trying

ever. She's like like this guy's trying too hard to come across in this sort of way and I can see right through it. And

I think that as long as you're just like very much yourself, the enthusiasm is it can be off-putting if it's a dangerous and fragile strategy. You know what I think it is? I think it's social

calibration and awareness >> and every person is going to be a little different. Like someone could really hit

different. Like someone could really hit that enthusiasm and just like love it.

>> And you could tell pretty quickly within like a split second if they're into it or not.

>> Well, do you consider yourself enthusiastic Jack?

>> Yeah. Yeah, the way Jordan I took Jordan Peterson's personality test and I think I got like a 96 on enthusiasm. The way

you just entered the conversation was super high enthusiasm and I was like a this he's probably right.

>> It's the Well, and I think so I think enthusiasm can be misconred for endlessly positive. Like you just came

endlessly positive. Like you just came in and disagreed with something that I said, but you did it with a a ton of energy. Like I actually think that's

energy. Like I actually think that's enthusiasm and that's engaging and interesting. Now, you weren't kissing my

interesting. Now, you weren't kissing my butt and you didn't come in like, "Hi, SW Charlie." You know, like, so I I hear

SW Charlie." You know, like, so I I hear what you're saying and I think that beneath the semantics, we probably agree on this one. And that if enthusiasm is

understood as the things that animate and activate you, but doesn't have to be endlessly positive, >> then I full stamp it. And if and if how

you're understanding it is it's this positivity and even when it's fake, it's like yeah, that's not that's not it.

That's fair. I'm trying to I'm I want to come up with like a devil's advocate >> reason to disagree. Also, let's just say conversely, someone asks you a close friend, how's your day? It's the worst

day I've ever had in my entire life. Is

that attractive? Is that charismatic to someone that you know well or do you have to have that social comprehension to be able to like you know navigate I I think that's kind of the uh the root

>> and then whatever comes out of that is the you know do you choose to be enthusiastic do you choose to >> so exaggerate these are these are interesting questions because I really do think once it's important to learn

tonality body language skills eye contact like this is where I started and it's important and broadly there's things that work better than others in most cases. The longer I live though, I

most cases. The longer I live though, I do see that authenticity is just for so many reasons the better choice to make.

And I'll give you a little short story about this. In college, there was a

about this. In college, there was a night where the girl that I was seeing and I broke up. And I found out at like midnight, I was out on the co the popular college street where everybody

was drinking and partying and I wasn't drinking. I just got this message that

drinking. I just got this message that we were going to break up. We were in like a long distance thing and or was it Gosh, did we break up in an alley? It's

been a long time. We broke up and I was press falling about it. So I'm walking down the street and I was very unhappy, low energy and I was stunned because multiple women walked up to me and

started talking like, "Hey, what's going on? Are you like it was weirdly drawing

on? Are you like it was weirdly drawing it happened several times on the walk home?" And I was like, "Should I break

home?" And I was like, "Should I break up with someone every night? Like what

is going on?" But I was not in the mood to talk. It was an authentic real thing

to talk. It was an authentic real thing that was happening right there. And it

was early and I didn't know what to do with it or make anything of it. But as

I've gotten older, and this is not always true, there are people that are going to be completely put off by any sort of authentic expression. That's

important to recognize because every guy's gotten the advice, just be yourself, tell her how you're feeling, and then people run away from him. But I

think that there's enough people in the world that if you are able to own your experience and let it move through you in an adult way, which is to say, if you're having a bad time, it doesn't

mean that you yell at other people, but it does mean that you can wear that a little bit. I think that's I think

little bit. I think that's I think that's the most attractive quality particularly in adults. Kids, teenagers

are still sorting out who do I need to pretend to be in order to fit in in my middle and high school. But I think as an adult, yeah, it's all about at what age should you have that figured out?

Like I understand if you're 15, still still, you know, trying to find your way, but like at 30, like at what age should people really get it together?

You know, should is an interesting one, but I what I'll tell you is there's a lot of adults that are still developmentally children, right? You you

you see this on the internet, you see this in your life, you see the way that they handle conflicts.

>> So, ideally, what would happen is that in your teens, you experiment and you start solidifying this ego identity. In

your 20s, you begin to live it out. You

define yourself as I am this type of a guy. I am not the type of guy who is

guy. I am not the type of guy who is inefficient and I am productive and I get all these things done. And then Carl Jung who is I think one of the most brilliant psychologists ever but certainly of the uh 21st century says

that at about 35 there is a shift that occurs in people and it's the shift from your ego which you've spent your entire life building up to that point. This is the part of

you that says I am this type of person.

I am not that type of person. I have

succeeded in these ways. I like these things and I don't like these other things. all of your self-defins

things. all of your self-defins that that gets that is who you are in your 20s but it gets desentered around 35 and then what starts to happen is your soul comes in and that becomes the

center that you live from and you become far more about rather than how can I make money or how can I get people to like me or how come they're not laughing at my joke becomes authentically how can

I serve other people right how can I give back to the world I I am now capable of taking care of myself what I want to do is give, share, and offer myself to a larger cause. So, I think

developmentally that's ideal. That's

often not how it goes, though. We have

parents that behave like children and in mesh with their own children and create codependencies and all sorts of issues.

And yeah, that's that's not very common that it breaks that way.

>> So, now I think we could all confidently agree that you're very charismatic.

>> Oh, thank you.

>> So, I struggle sometimes with that. I

imagine you put in clearly a lot of work to become this way. What would you say was the most important change you made, >> so it was early were the big changes. It

was I I'll go very concrete. It was leaving the town to go to college that I was in.

I think it's incredibly hard to transform oneself with the eyes of people who already know you around you.

And you guys, I'm sure have experienced this. Everyone on the internet has

this. Everyone on the internet has experienced this which is the people that are the least supportive are often those that have the most to lose if you transform. So if you are in any point of

transform. So if you are in any point of your life trying to make a transformation, you're trying to start a business, you're trying to do something else, certainly there might be a handful of friends or parents or family members that are encouraging, but you probably

need to go somewhere where you are unseen by the majority of your hometown in order to successfully pull that transformation off. So that would be

transformation off. So that would be probably the biggest thing that I did was study abroad at a place where nobody knew me. So I could have those elevator

knew me. So I could have those elevator experiences where it doesn't count. I

could just try 100 different things over and over again. I I got to do that for a year and a half in college and then I came back and people were like who is that person? Like it was shockingly

that person? Like it was shockingly different.

>> Okay. So what are the directly applicable or actionable things then that you struggled with the most that like a lever you pulled it and then all of a sudden you're this charismatic person.

>> Okay. So concretely it would be it's way harder today but actually there's an advantages. Do not use your phone for things that other people can help you with. So if you like I went to

this new town studying abroad and at the time there were no smartphones but today what everyone would do is they would go to Yelp. They would go to Airbnb. They

to Yelp. They would go to Airbnb. They

would find a way to get all of their needs met without ever having to communicate with another human being.

far better is to walk down the street and say, "Hey, you know, do you know any restaurants around here that are really good?" And I did that

for months. Where are the good

for months. Where are the good restaurants? Where I don't know how to

restaurants? Where I don't know how to get to my class? Do you know a good spot to learn salsa dancing? Like just

constantly asking questions. And some of those people just said, "No, I don't know." Some of them showed me cool

know." Some of them showed me cool things and others wound up being like, "What are you doing here?" And they became friends. So the willingness to

became friends. So the willingness to put yourself in situations where you are communicating more with strangers is so important. And what I often tell people

important. And what I often tell people is say one more sentence than you need to. So the elevator is a great example.

to. So the elevator is a great example.

You need to say zero sentences. Just say

one thing. Say anything in the elevator.

You're checking out at a cashier paper or plastic cash or credit. Okay.

Normally that's what you say. Say one

more thing. How's your shift going? I

would love if we could reset the norm in elevators. If elevators could have then

elevators. If elevators could have then become a conversation pit every time you get in, what's someone going to say?

What are we going to talk about today, guys? That would actually be a funny

guys? That would actually be a funny opener.

What are we talking about today, everybody?

>> So, thank you all for coming.

>> All right. If you're a listener right now and you get in the elevator today, tomorrow, the next day, who knows when, please start a conversation. Subscribe

to the iced coffee hour. Did you see that episode of the iced coffee hour?

That, by the way, would be an incredible opener because I think a lot of the time we fall into like what should I say? And

it can be a very logistical what's practical, but it's you don't need to be literal or serious at all. Like I that for anybody out there, ask people if they like ice coffee hour. Tell them

that you heard on this podcast that you're supposed to talk to people in elevators. When they say why, tell them

elevators. When they say why, tell them you don't really understand.

>> I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't

podcast.

>> I don't know. I'm drinking Athletic Greens and doing what I'm told.

>> Now, what about for people who have social anxiety?

>> Mhm. where they just feel like going and talking to strangers that they get that like rush of just adrenaline.

>> Yeah, that's me 100% hyper introverted.

Uh this was what about them? Like what

should they do or >> what should they do? How do they overcome this? Because it seems like

overcome this? Because it seems like that's an additional barrier that they have to conquer just to get to the first step.

>> Yeah. Yes. Yes, it is for sure. For me,

what made it worth it was recognizing the limitation in my life. And it was experiences like the one I described where I'm saying a joke and everyone else is following the other dude or like I've had a crush on this girl for a year and then some other guy asked her on a

date and now they're dating.

So I I I hate to say it but early in your journey becoming conscious of the pain that you're putting yourself in by choosing to coddle your own fears and

your own anxieties is really important.

Like this is true of any sort of change where you got to recognize what it is costing you. The second thing that I

costing you. The second thing that I would say is there's hard leaps and then there's easier steps to take. So I've

tried in this conversation to give very easy steps. Like I could have given way

easy steps. Like I could have given way way harder stuff for people to focus on.

Like go do standup comedy or join an improv class and perform in front of a room. Those are incredible ways to

room. Those are incredible ways to develop charisma. You will become really

develop charisma. You will become really good really fast. They also are going to terrify you and stretch the people with social anxiety. But quite frankly, if I

social anxiety. But quite frankly, if I was asked to give not the easiest prescription but the most effective, it would be standup and improv. Comedy

classes would be the things that I would recommend to people. Stuff like that is >> what's like I've had so many people recommend improv.

>> Improv is poorly named. Well, it's

honestly named, but it is a skill that is completely portable for everything.

So, I it's something that people don't often follow through, but I'll make a pitch for it. It's like the best way to get better at speaking, flirting, interviews, friends, because what it

trains you to do is to be present in the moment, to yes, and in interaction, to find a way to make a situation that is completely unreal extend further and be

fun. That's a tough lift. And then you

fun. That's a tough lift. And then you do it in front of an audience who is sometimes laughing, sometimes not.

You're worried about it.

>> Those skills are totally portable to life. So, if I could, I would just tell

life. So, if I could, I would just tell everyone go do improv comedy. I was

literally just thinking that you could do that as a team. I would do that.

Yeah.

>> So powerful. So powerful. And And they have places all over the I just don't say it because people don't do it.

>> Oh, I would do it.

>> I would do it. Okay. I would do it.

>> They're great.

>> All right. What about this, Graham?

>> Yeah. If we need to make a bet. There

needs to be stakes on the line. Sure.

So, we'll do an improv class. And if we don't in the next what, two weeks?

>> Two weeks is tough. I would say in the next Well, we're gone. We're traveling

so much. I would say realistically the next 3 weeks.

>> By January 31st. January 31.

>> No, pause. I've got it. So, you These things are cohort based. They're not

always available. Sign up for one in the next two weeks.

>> Yeah.

>> Sign up for one. Now, it might not start till January, >> but >> yeah, >> you you can do that for sure.

>> Okay.

>> Well, sign up for improv.

>> Sign up for improv. They often start with like level zero. You're not going to be in front of an audience until at the very end if you want. It's playing.

It's games.

>> Uh that is very good. Now, the only thing is some of these classes for you guys, and I saw the speed with that you jumped in are catered to people who like want to be even more coddled, so they're going to take it slow.

You you might even want to see if you can jump into like a level one or two class. I would be fine in front of an

class. I would be fine in front of an audience. Honestly, it wouldn't I

audience. Honestly, it wouldn't I wouldn't do that.

>> You might want to you might want to be like level zero is really about making people comfortable in it and a lot of people don't feel it. But you guys could ask to to do a level.

>> I'm just curious what type of person we're going to see in improv class in Vegas. What type of person's sign? Like

Vegas. What type of person's sign? Like

is it going to be like 50-year-old guys?

Is it going to be like there? Like I

have no idea.

>> I saw a lot of 20s and 30s, but I did it in New York and that's where people are lurking on developing Yeah.

>> their acting chops. I did it in Where was the other town? I think I did it in Vegas. Was the other town

Vegas. Was the other town >> did I think so.

>> What is it like? Walk us through the process. Like how do they get you to

process. Like how do they get you to like maybe we role play or something?

>> Correct. So level zero is you come in for a couple hours and it's all games.

You won't even do a scene to start. So

like we'll play this game zip zap. You

don't know what zip zaps up is? No.

>> Okay. So,

a lot of these games and by the way, these can be ported to interviews or things. They're about creating verbal

things. They're about creating verbal fluency and freedom in the ex in the thing cuz we're often this how we so we're going to play very briefly.

>> Cool.

>> It's the easiest improv game. It doesn't

even create that much freedom, but it's how you start because it's a low lift.

The game is zip zap zap. If I start, I have to point at one of you and say zip.

Then you who received it has to point at someone else at me or at Graham and say zap. And then whoever gets it has to say

zap. And then whoever gets it has to say zop. And you do that several times. The

zop. And you do that several times. The

idea of the game is to add a little flavor to it. It's pointless. So I'll be like zip zap.

Zop. Zip.

Zap. Zap. You were zop.

>> Did I [ __ ] it up? I said zop. I said

zop.

>> You said zap.

>> That was a zop.

So I lost zip zaps up.

>> So do you leave then and then it's just >> like you you can't zero. You got to get out of here buddy.

>> How do you win? No. So the idea of the game is you keep it going quick and you the entire idea is you just break the part of you that says I'm being weird.

>> Like there's always this little voice.

It's like that was weird. He said that in a strange way. You're just trying to keep moving through the experience of awkwardness. That's the game. That's it.

awkwardness. That's the game. That's it.

And so there's a lot of games that are like this. Yeah. And there there are

like this. Yeah. And there there are people that, you know, practice this before they go to interviews, practice before they go out at night. My friends

would do it before we went to a bar.

Like it it is really good for just chilling out and not taking yourself so seriously. And what's the next level?

seriously. And what's the next level?

The next level, let me recall the types of things that they would do. They would

do all sorts of short short scene exercises. So one of them, this is a bit

exercises. So one of them, this is a bit more advanced, is that and I remember this is a lot of times when we storytell, we try to make it interesting. And so we try to pick our

interesting. And so we try to pick our best story. we put pressure on the story

best story. we put pressure on the story and then we don't tell a good story.

>> So what they would do is they would have one person stand in and everyone in the audience just which is just the other people in the class would shout a word at them.

>> You would pick one word out and you would say >> so uh well who does anybody want to try this?

>> I'll try it.

>> Okay. So

>> I'm feeling in >> think of a random word and on the count of three we're going to shout it at Graham.

>> Okay.

>> One and and then I'll tell you the next step. One 2 3

step. One 2 3 spine and tree.

>> Okay. So, pick one of them.

>> Doesn't matter. Tree. Got it. So, here's

what you do. Tree reminds me of something. Reminds me of something.

something. Reminds me of something.

Reminds And say reminds me of something until you find a story and then tell us the story.

Tree reminds me of dirt. And when I think of dirt, I planted three trees in the front of my house. And I thought it was going to be really easy to plant these three trees. What I didn't realize

is that when you dig below like six in or so, you have this hard clay. And so I had to take the shovel and just beat away at this clay to try to like chip it

apart. And then I probably spent half a

apart. And then I probably spent half a day, this is a true story actually, I probably spent half a day chipping away at this clay in front of the house. And

then I realized when I got to the clay, I couldn't put the tree in because under the clay was concrete and they had concreted below this thing and there's no drainage for the plant anyway. So I

ended up planting these trees. I

compacted them down and then they all died because there was no drainage and so the trees I guess like rotted on the on the underside. I didn't know that.

So, we actually had to go and place irrigation like these little holes at the bottom that drained out to the other side of this like wall and uh now the trees are there and they're alive.

>> Very good. That's the type of exercise that you do. Yeah. And then it's not like there's no like feedback at the end of it. It's not you you could have done

of it. It's not you you could have done this better. It's

this better. It's >> all of the early levels are about developing freedom because and the truth is in life people don't tell enough stories. They they often operate very

stories. They they often operate very literally question answer interview style and these story breaks are the things that let your listener sit back relax. There's about 5% of the

relax. There's about 5% of the population that needs to talk less. They

need to tell fewer stories. They need to ask more questions. That definitely

exists. But the type of person who's going to listen to this podcast almost guarantees needs to speak more, needs to bring more of themselves to the interaction. So those are the types of

interaction. So those are the types of things that they do in in >> improv. See, I would be hardressed to do

>> improv. See, I would be hardressed to do like random stories.

>> Yeah. or make something up or riff.

Riffing is is I just don't do that well.

Yeah.

>> Unless I've had like a drink or two. I

just have a problem >> just that back and forth of just like making up some scenario.

>> Interesting.

>> So, you mean making up scenarios where people do like build a comical absurd world with one another?

>> Yeah. Like whose line is it anyway? Like

that. I love that show. I could never be like as quick and witty as and they just come up with these things on the spot and that to me is like a superpower.

>> It's so okay. So those are those are some of the best in the world they got on the show. But wherever you are today, you you take a couple levels of improv, you'll be blown away by your ability to do that. It is a skill. It is not an

do that. It is a skill. It is not an innate thing. Getting to the elite elite

innate thing. Getting to the elite elite levels, that's that's a combination of talent and birth and all that kind of stuff, but you can get way way better at all of that. Improv is a great way to go.

>> Do you think though, you said that, you know, w with practice you're going to get better, but don't you think with AI, >> people are just going to have less contact with each other

the bar? It'll just make it easier to be

the bar? It'll just make it easier to be more charismatic.

>> Yes. But I think more people just don't have to interact with anybody. Like

you're talking about going to the store and like talking to asking for directions. I'm thinking like, well, now

directions. I'm thinking like, well, now at McDonald's, they have that kiosk and you just go up to the kiosk and you press your order and it just someone's like just places it on the counter and

it's done. Or Starbucks now they're

it's done. Or Starbucks now they're they're they're coming up with those AI things.

>> You don't need to talk to a person dash >> or you just door just click a few buttons. So,

buttons. So, >> where do you think the future is headed in terms of talking to people? Cuz isn't

it now more important just to have like good texting skills and like just being good over you know online?

>> Well, if you assume well if you assume that the entire relationship is going to be conducted online then sure you know what I mean like that.

>> No but but the relationship could build entirely over text message and then it skips all the sort of like informalities in the beginning.

My experience with that, and I've seen other people, is that then there there inevitably is an encounter of not just people on a screen, but two nervous systems coming into contact. Oh, that

guy can't make eye contact with me. He's

really uncomfortable. He's shaking. Now

we're kissing and he's trembling or whatever. So, I totally agree with you.

whatever. So, I totally agree with you.

The arc of technology is that it has allowed us to become more atomized. And

I even when I was in Costa Rica the first time, I didn't have a phone. Now I

have the option to use Yelp instead of asking a person for a restaurant. So

yeah, you're going to be able to exist as an economic unit >> without ever talking to anyone and that we're already mostly there. The price

that you'll pay, I think, in terms of satis life satisfaction is going to be very very very high. And then in the inevitable case where you do want to have a relationship, your nervous system, I don't think, will be very

prepared for it and you'll struggle eventually. Uh but if people don't

eventually. Uh but if people don't experience that, God bless. I know. I

know. I feel that way. Like after years of door dashing, I finally am like moving in and I'm dealing with people and it's a shock to the system to talk to a stranger again. I've gone through periods where I've worked really hard

for like a month, give or take, and I just don't go out. The only people I talk to really like Jack and Macy and podcast guys, that's it. And then when I go out, I feel so >> rusty. Yep.

>> rusty. Yep.

>> It's just like I don't know how to It's like I forgotten how to talk to people.

>> Totally. I felt that way after co I was like, do we shake hands? Do we

>> I didn't know how to do it. So yeah,

it's like the gym, which is if you've done it once, you know you can do it.

You built the muscle back faster, but if you don't go for 6 months at a time, like you're you're you're going to lose it for sure.

>> And how do you address situations? Let's

give some examples here. If someone

talks over you constantly.

>> Uh so there's a number of ways to address this. If someone talks over you

address this. If someone talks over you constantly, there's all fundamental questions which is like why are you in situations with people that that need this level of

parenting or like so so there's there's the there's the concrete thing to say which is like in the moment everybody likes to know what phrase to say which is >> there's there's people that have better ones on me that I won't I won't cry

their lines but I think Jefferson Fischer has a good line. There's other

there's other people out there in this world. But yeah, my thing is it would be

world. But yeah, my thing is it would be more curiosity around how you wind up in a situation where people are constantly talking over you and if there's a more structural change that we could make to get you into situations where that's not the case.

>> So you're saying you could have already done something wrong. You could be trying to fit in with a group of people that don't care for you or are low empathy or and it's just like the answer to this is not to change this

circumstance, find the right phrase. the

answer is to leave this situation and go start a better one. It's kind of like if my boss treats me like crap, how do I get him to stop?

>> You could you could just get a different job would be a one way to approach it.

>> What if someone's just droning and they're talking and talking and you don't want to talk to them and then like what are you supposed to do in that situation?

>> Is this a podcast question?

>> I've seen where you just keep talking.

>> Yeah. And it's just you finish your sentence and if they talk over you, you just continue on and you just overt talk them and get a little louder. And if

they get a little louder, you just kind of have to one up. But it might not end.

>> At a certain point, Graham and I we but uh we have a few, you know, Graham knows who I'm talking about.

>> Like we were in conversation with this guy and between between everything he would say, but uh and then he would go on to the next thing. And so like you

know you can finish a point and just end on a period or you can say but uh and then go on to the next thing.

>> It was it was crazy. We started laughing mid conversation because you would just see he would twist something into something else into something else. We

would like talk about this cup and then like 10 minutes later he'd be talking about like riding a camel in Egypt and what like the tour guide was telling him

and then he'd circle back to like a Christmas gift he got like and it was never ending and it was constant to see like okay where is this guy going to lead next but everything was but uh yeah

so then I did this >> but uh and then and at this we just stopped talking and enjoyed our what we were doing

>> because it's just like it was pointless.

It's pointless to say anything. It's

funny.

>> Yeah. So, I think there's there's do you want to be a saint in these situations or do you want to extricate yourself? If

you want to which is totally fine to want to extricate yourself. I think the whenever I want to get out of a conversation, I just announce what I'm going to do next. Be like, "Okay, I'm going to go to the bathroom, but you know, or okay, I'm going to go get in my

car and I'm going to drive off." It it for it's just a weird, yeah, I'm going to go uh meet my friend. and I'm going to go call my dad. Like I just >> do that. The dinner had just been served.

>> Okay. So you're locked in in sort of a situation.

>> Locked in waiting for food to come in.

And >> so then then the other the other thing which is not your responsibility but I have started to try to do is there's all kinds of difficult personalities. You

just described one. There's the person who trauma dumps. There's the person who won't stop talking.

That person I've begun to learn develop that habit because they struggle to be present with other people. they they

they don't know how to let other people in. They don't know how to communicate

in. They don't know how to communicate with other people. And it's an acutely painful experience for them. So, I try to drop into compassion in those moments

and curiosity. And I'm not excellent at

and curiosity. And I'm not excellent at this, but the type of thing I would try to pay attention to the story and listen for what is he really trying to tell me

here? You know, my the camel did this

here? You know, my the camel did this and like what is he trying to say? Is he

trying to get me to understand that he's a cool guy who travels a lot? Is he

trying to get me to understand that uh we should hang out sometime? And I will try to speak directly to the thing that he is deeply trying to communicate but struggling to say. So, and that would

just be >> Yeah, it sounds like you really get to travel a lot of places and have a pretty interesting life. Like I try to I try to

interesting life. Like I try to I try to pull out of them the thing that they are talking around which is why they're saying so many words cuz they're not able to just express the emotion and the

need that they have in that conversation which is to be seen, recognized, understood, uh appreciated, whatever.

There's so many times I wish that I could just say, "Hey, listen. I'm just

not enjoying this conversation."

>> That's a you know I'm leave. I see that I would I would advise against maybe that there's something close to that.

>> I just don't want to listen to this and I just don't want to talk right now.

>> Yeah. Can we you know >> in the most polite way possible like >> I'm I'm kind of done with this. I

>> I see as people get older they they trend in that direction and they can get really harsh in that direction. I think

there's a I don't know the exact phrase but I think there's really something powerful there which is >> yeah I don't know. I'm just not that interested in this topic. What else is going on in your life? or like like like

keep the door open to connection with that person. I don't know the exact

that person. I don't know the exact phrase, but I I think it's that's authentic, right? This I don't want to

authentic, right? This I don't want to do this.

>> Can we do something else? It's an

interesting way to approach it. A few

times I've just said I've zoned out for like a last few minutes.

>> Great. Great.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I think people appreciate it too because then like you're kind of breaking through that that barrier and they see that you're just like, "Hey, look, I can trust this person that they're going to be authentic with me and say how they truly feel."

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And worst case, you know, they freak out. You don't do it. Okay. That

freak out. You don't do it. Okay. That

>> that relationship is over. You're never

going to have to sit there and listen to them again. Best case, this person had a

them again. Best case, this person had a barrier up. You stopped being fake and

barrier up. You stopped being fake and you pull them out of their weird spiel that they have and actually connect with them as a person. And then you're engaged. I think I think a lot of people

engaged. I think I think a lot of people be like, "Oh, I'm not interested in other people."

other people." >> I think they are, but they haven't learned how to elicit the interesting parts of other people in conversation.

So, they let other people go wherever they want, and they sit bored on the sidelines type of a thing. So, how do you end a boring conversation?

>> Mhm. Well, you can try to make a boring conversation an interesting one, which is the first thing, which is to get to values, generally speaking. So, the the things that make there's fun, values,

and I call it news. news is like, "Yeah, so you know, we got a new crib for the baby. We're moving in. Her mom's going

baby. We're moving in. Her mom's going to visit next." It's just, you know, end it, please. I don't care. That's where a

it, please. I don't care. That's where a lot of people live. Values is the things that you actually care about, are struggling with, are creating friction, conflict, tension. I find that stuff

conflict, tension. I find that stuff interesting. So, if somebody were to

interesting. So, if somebody were to tell me and said, "Yeah, you know, her mother's coming to town. I got in a big fight with her the last time she was here. She actually like now I'm

here. She actually like now I'm invested." So, I'm trying to share my

invested." So, I'm trying to share my values in conversation when I'm talking about the topics in my life with other people, and I'm trying to listen for their values and pull them out of them

and steer the conversation in that direction to make a boring conversation have depth and be interesting to them.

>> Let's just say you don't want to have a conversation at all, but you want to excuse yourself in the best way possible without >> maybe making the situation uncomfortable.

>> Yeah. So, I don't know exactly where you are, but for me, it's generally I say, "Awesome. I am going to Awesome. nice

"Awesome. I am going to Awesome. nice

talking to you. I'm going to X, Y, and Z. I'm gonna head out now. I'm going to

Z. I'm gonna head out now. I'm going to give my father a call. I'm going to go uh explore the party a little bit. I'm

going to go to the bathroom. Whatever."

And just that's it.

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Would you say charisma is inherently manipulative? No, I would not. Do you

manipulative? No, I would not. Do you

think that it is?

>> I think it probably depends on how you reflect your charisma.

>> But I do think if you're trying to get yourself to come across a certain way to then have people react to you a certain way, just effectively, you know,

changing yourself to get a desired response from someone else. That could

be unless if you know you define charisma as being authentically yourself, unwavering and figuring yourself out and becoming the best version of yourself and just displaying that.

>> Yeah, I totally agree. No, I think I think the superficial aspects of almost anything that people work on themselves for. Like it's manipulative to go to the

for. Like it's manipulative to go to the gym to sculpt your biceps and your abs to get a particular reaction from a particular person when it's fully understood that that's why you're doing it. You're not expressing your own

it. You're not expressing your own natural health. You are carving a body

natural health. You are carving a body that you have predetermined will get a response from it. Like you're trying and and if you don't get the response, you will change your gym routine until you do get the response. Like that is and I

don't and by the way, you can put a negative or positive or neutral veilance on all of that. But it's it's a manipulative behavior. You're trying

manipulative behavior. You're trying you're not the activity in itself is not having unintended consequences. The

consequences are the whole point of what you're doing. And so I totally agree

you're doing. And so I totally agree with you that a lot of the superficial ways of engaging with making money, getting in shape, getting people to like you are manipulative. And then as you

hopefully progress and develop and get older, they are natural outgrowths of you being yourself and the with whether people like you or not, whether they like your body or not, whether they're

into your like all of that is let go, I think, at further stages of development.

>> How do you know if you have good charisma? Well, I think certainly an

charisma? Well, I think certainly an aspect is how people react to you, but >> but you can still misinterpret the way that they react to you. Of course, there are ways that are just concrete, you know, like look at a a certain number,

you know, >> something that will tell you if you are charismatic.

>> No, no, it's it's it's an interpersonal experience and it does like show me where charisma exists in the universe, right? Like let's go mine charisma. It

right? Like let's go mine charisma. It

doesn't. It's it's an interpersonal subjectively but broadly felt experience. But take the most

experience. But take the most charismatic person, whoever you want to call him. I said Trump at the beginning,

call him. I said Trump at the beginning, but obviously that's not a universally felt thing about him. So it doesn't exist independently of the feelings that people have in interaction with one

another. So there is no there's no

another. So there is no there's no device, there's no measure. There is

only I think what matters is are you satisfied with how your relationships add to your life and how you add to the relationships in your life. And if you

step back and you see that you have friends, colleagues that seem to get much more out of that aspect than you, then there's something to work on. And

if you look back and you go, "No, I'm deeply I feel really good about my wife or my husband. I feel good about my work relationships. I feel good about the

relationships. I feel good about the opportunities that sort of fall into my lap." Then great. there's, you know,

lap." Then great. there's, you know, probably not an area you need to focus on.

>> How important are first impressions?

I mean, how important are first impressions? When you think about the

impressions? When you think about the amount of people that you're going to come into contact with in your life, and then how many of them you will only meet once, and if that goes well, there's an opportunity for a second,

third, fourth. It is the gate that it's

third, fourth. It is the gate that it's it's kind of like saying, how important is your storefront or how important is your thumbnail on YouTube? It's the

thing that determines if the inner goods ever get experienced. And as you guys know on YouTube, you get a 3% clickthrough or 4% clickthrough, that's a huge difference in the experience that you have of are you making money or are

you losing money.

>> So deeply deeply important when it comes to yeah connecting with people. But I

think more important is not that you have everybody likes you, but that the right people are connecting with you.

So, it's it's bringing yourself consistently into interactions so that the person who would vibe and would connect with you knows that and then you can form a friendship or a partnership or something like that.

>> And what does that perfect first interaction look like? We're going to an event tonight for Spotify.

>> Okay.

>> We're going to be meeting some people.

>> I'm coming.

>> Do you want to?

>> We'll talk after. I might be able to.

>> Okay.

>> What does it look like though? Yeah.

>> When you first meet somebody, what's the best way to lead a great impression?

>> Yeah. So again, I I will say there's the broad objective, more universal way of doing it. And then there's what do you hope to

it. And then there's what do you hope to get out of this event because for you, maybe all that you want, and this could be different, maybe, and I'm making this up, Jack just wants to meet a girlfriend. And the only first

girlfriend. And the only first impression he cares about is do I get the women that I like to like me back?

And for you, it's like you're looking for a business deal or you're looking for a friend. The the first impression qualities are going to be different in each of those circumstances. But so it's important to know what you're wanting

out of a out of a situation. But broadly

the if you if the other person has these three experiences in this order, it's a great first impression. So the first one is fun. If the sense that they get from

is fun. If the sense that they get from you is that you are an enjoyable presence. That's the important piece.

presence. That's the important piece.

You come in super high energy. I don't

know. I disagree. Like it's fun. It's

fun. High energy is more fun than low energy. You can crack a joke. This is

energy. You can crack a joke. This is

something that I've talked about add infinitum on all the podcasts I've done.

But somebody says, "Where are you from?"

And you make up a silly joke. You're

like, "I live over there in the broom closet." Yeah, I just they just let me

closet." Yeah, I just they just let me out for parties. You know, like that's fun versus, well, I live here and I do this, right? So, okay, you get a chuckle

this, right? So, okay, you get a chuckle or a laugh check. You've done fun.

That's all that it takes. Trust. Trust

can come in a number of ways. This is

where a friend says, "Hey, have you met?" Like instant trust, right? When

met?" Like instant trust, right? When

somebody MC sees you or somebody says, "Oh, you should meet this guy." That's

why a assist when it comes to a first introduction is so valuable. That

immediately buys you five or 10 minutes when somebody says, "You should talk to this person."

this person." >> Other ways to build trust is mostly non-verbal. It's eye contact. It's your

non-verbal. It's eye contact. It's your

handshake. It's you I mean, you guys are sort of established. There's trust that is going to be there for you guys because you're at this event. But that

is something that other people generally need to need to communicate via non-verbals. And then the last thing is

non-verbals. And then the last thing is respect. So respect often comes through.

respect. So respect often comes through.

It can be non-verbal, but eventually everybody says they're trying to locate you in this the hierarchy. It's like, so what do you do? Or do you live around here or this cheap and easy ways, not easy, but if you have it, it's like, oh, you live in the expensive neighborhood

or you've got the cool job or you know the the guy who's throwing the party or this that and the other thing. But it's

even if you're not that back when I was a consultant and I wasn't too proud of it, the way that you talk about what you do, your ability to bring values and lead

the conversation in interesting ways, the fact that there's somebody over there who gives you a high five where you're like, "Hey, what's up, man?" Like

all of this contributes to a sense of I mean, we're monkeys, right?

that this person is in the hierarchy, alliances, all that kind of stuff is felt palpably and it creates a sense of respect.

>> This is a interesting one. What do you think about people who wear designer clothing like expensive Louis Vuitton head to toe? They drive a really nice car. They pull up in the Ferrari. How

car. They pull up in the Ferrari. How

does that play into all this in terms of making a good first impression? Well,

it's it's clearly intended to create desire and respect or that and there's a subset of the population that it works for. Like a lot of people tell you they

for. Like a lot of people tell you they buy these cars and the only people who look at them are other dudes, right? But

it does have that effect some of the time. And you might remember like

time. And you might remember like probably 10 years ago there was these pranks where these guys would roll up in Lamborghinis or something. Yeah, the

gold digger pranks, right? The idea is that people see that and they treat you differently. So it it impacts a subset

differently. So it it impacts a subset of people one way. It also alienates a subset of people the other way. Who are

you trying to engage with? And I would say again, if you're getting a car to get people to like you, you're going to attract the wrong kind of people. You're

going to attract the kind of people who want to use you for that car. But if

you're a real like I know that you love cars and you just love them and you would love them if nobody liked them, you just want it. If it's an expression of that and who you are, go for it 100%.

And it's the same thing with the clothes. Like if you love this clothes

clothes. Like if you love this clothes and everybody else hating it doesn't mean a thing to you. It just happens to be designer, wear it.

>> But if it's if your love of the clothes is completely contingent on what other people say, then but what about like the the um Adam Sandler sort of style where he's just walking around New York with just dressed kind of

>> Sandler.

>> But but I'm saying but but he has that confidence to be able to pull it off and with him it's cool, but some other guy does that. I was like, "Yo, you should

does that. I was like, "Yo, you should really, you know, >> some Okay, so you're comparing Adam Sandler and some other guy."

>> I promise you. I promise you. People

told him 20 years or 25 years, "Hey, man, you can't dress like that. Hey man,

you can't dress." Yeah. Like when he was just the guy on SNL like, "Dude, wear a suit." Like,

suit." Like, >> but he just kept doing it and now it's him and it's fine. I mean, I'm not dressed particularly nicely. I wear my black t-shirt, but if you had, you know, Alex Okconor, he would be in a suit

right now.

>> They create different impressions. they

they one is not better than the other and the question is which attracts the type of person that you're most interested in and which feels the best for you to do. I don't think that one is better than the other though.

>> So there's no optimal sort of like you should dress this way to get like the best outcome. It's really just whatever

best outcome. It's really just whatever you feel more most comfortable in. So

there is I had a phrase and I don't live by this anymore, but if you're really trying to optimize, >> sure, >> every day is Halloween. And what you'll experience if you have ever had a Halloween where you had a killer

costume, makes it really easy to meet people. Like there was a year where we

people. Like there was a year where we were in Brazil. This is before they had shipped those Velcro morph suits out to Brazil so nobody had seen them. And me

and my other American friends dressed up as the five Power Rangers. And we went out for both that Halloween and the following carnival. And it was the most

following carnival. And it was the most celebrity experience I have ever had in my entire life. Constant people coming up, oh my god, Power Rangers, like taking photos. It was the most fun I

taking photos. It was the most fun I have ever had. Now, to be clear, carnival is not an event where you're supposed to dress up like a Power Ranger, but you know, people wear headdresses. So, and we were foreign.

headdresses. So, and we were foreign.

>> I experienced this in New York where I was a single guy. I was trying to get talk to girls. Didn't have a ton of other going on. So, I wore suspenders and I tried everything. I tried the boa.

I tried the top, you know, I wore everything once and the suspenders reliably would have women come up and just Yeah.

>> But you wouldn't do it on a first date.

Like when >> I would do it all the time.

>> Yes. So

>> does that Wait, does that still work? I

don't know. It's But yes, it's been it's like everybody would say, and by the way, the reaction that I got from you guys, all the dudes would roll their eyes and it just works. It just works. I

don't know what to tell you. Walk me

walk me through this cuz I am actually gobsmacked that suspenders work. So are

you just putting these suspenders on and walking on the street striking up conversation with someone and then they go and they snap it. That's it.

>> And are you because you can display suspenders in many different ways. The

two main ones being look at me I'm wearing suspenders. I'm the guy who like

wearing suspenders. I'm the guy who like that sort of a thing or is it like I look good in suspenders?

>> So which one does it? It was a combo cuz my uh my co-founder would do it too and he had like he was bigger and stronger and just kind of looked funny on him. I

was like more lean so it worked for me certainly. But I we ran this experiment

certainly. But I we ran this experiment with a number of friends and they had the same experience which is people girls in particular.

>> Do you wear a belt with suspenders?

>> No, I wouldn't. But these were and here's what I'll tell you.

>> Okay, so >> when you're when you're a younger guy, you're out in a public event like a bar or a club. The thing that guys don't realize is that we all, but women

especially, are clocking everyone in that room. Everyone in that room. And

that room. Everyone in that room. And

most guys are wearing their normal guy suit. I have a collared shirt and a

suit. I have a collared shirt and a solid color thing and a whatever. And

it's easy. Like maybe you're strikingly handsome. Maybe, you know what I mean?

handsome. Maybe, you know what I mean?

It's like look like maybe you're super tall, maybe you're like known from the internet, whatever. But you just blend

internet, whatever. But you just blend in. And then one dude has full sleeve

in. And then one dude has full sleeve tattoos or this was the easiest, clip-on suspenders. That guy is just noticeable.

suspenders. That guy is just noticeable.

And if she has any reason that she wants to speak with you, which could be she likes your look, could be she saw you talking to other people, she looked like you were having a good time, it gives her this easy way to initiate conversation.

>> So when they ask, "Why are you wearing the suspenders?" What do you say? Okay,

the suspenders?" What do you say? Okay,

this would have been a long time ago, so I'm 38 now.

Uh what would I have said? So these were questions that people always ask like I didn't drink at the time and people say what do you say when people say I like them or cuz they're awesome you know

like just like it's not about the phrase I would have said belts are too expensive >> great great it's like you can say >> they were out they were out of belt yeah they were out of belts at the belts

whatever literally anything the thing that will the wavering is the doubt that you shouldn't be like the fact that you maybe feel that you need to have justification like if somebody came up to you was like why are you wearing a

black V-neck like you would never prepare for that sort of a circumstance like if anyone asked you about your clothes or how you behaved similarly you just you don't need to prepare for that

you just you just so is so is this just peacocking then it's about doing anything to stand out >> not anything not anything cuz I tried I tried the stuff that they wrote in the game and I tried the boas and I tried the top hats and I tried all that and

they do create different things this was like fashion forward I had a t-shirt and the cool khakis with my clipons like it's somewhere on my Instagram you could

find it and it yeah it was effective.

>> So what about canned lines for openers.

Explain what a canned line is.

>> Okay this is all this is all blast from the past for me. So a canned line is every guy knows the experience of you see a woman that you're struck by. You'd

like to speak with her and your mouth goes dry, your hands go frozen and numb and you don't know what to do and all of a sudden the fact that you could talk to somebody else 3 minutes ago doesn't matter at all. you don't know what to say. A canned line is something that you

say. A canned line is something that you can say in that situation to get yourself moving, to get yourself out of it so that you can engage in conversation. I found that it was

conversation. I found that it was generally helpful to have a handful of these at most and to make sure that they were lines that would just be true in almost any situation. So, the one that I

used when I was a a younger guy um going out single, trying to meet women was, "Hey, I don't think I've met you yet.

I'm Charlie." That one is very very powerful because it without saying it subcommunicates I'm the type of person that knows a lot of people at this event. Now I didn't say that but it's

event. Now I didn't say that but it's sort of in there like I don't think I've met you yet is is baked into that.

Again I tested a bunch of them. That was

the most versatile and the easiest. Now

it doesn't make her fall in love with you. Like everyone thinks they have to

you. Like everyone thinks they have to think you've been running through my mind all day, you know, type of a thing.

You're just talking and you haven't creeped her out. That's That's where that line gets you. It's interesting for the can lines because I watch the YouTube videos. Stephen Shapiro.

YouTube videos. Stephen Shapiro.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steven Shapiro.

>> Yeah. And he's

>> It's a young generation. I don't know these guys.

>> He's just able to deliver these funny lines and no matter what he says, they're always receptive.

>> Mhm.

>> And I'm sure, listen, he could also edit out all the bad ones, but in fairness, he could go up and and say the lamest pickup line. Yeah.

pickup line. Yeah.

>> And you just see it just lights up her face. But he says it with such

face. But he says it with such confidence and like a very he's he's not attached to the outcome >> and seems just having a good time.

>> Yeah, pickup lines are training wheels.

Like they're they're for the person that doesn't know yet how to ride the bike and so they can lean heavy on a pickup line and not fall over. When you see I don't know this guy, but I imagine when you see someone like that, he's not even leaning on the training wheels. He

doesn't need them. He knows how to ride a bike. So, he can say whatever he

a bike. So, he can say whatever he wants. You can give him challenges. You

wants. You can give him challenges. You

can give him hard things to say. he

would probably be able to start a conversation just fine with something that you thought would explode the interaction.

>> You said a canned line in a podcast I was listening to. It might have been D of a CEO where someone asked, "Oh, do you live in this building?" You say, "No, I'm just casing the place." I

actually thought that was hil It's Jeez, going to steal that.

>> That's so good. It literally made me laugh. I'm still thinking about it

laugh. I'm still thinking about it because it's so just like clever. So, I

don't know. It makes me think like gez, maybe it'd be a good idea. Not even for like dating or getting a girl's attention, but just like for flirting with the world as you say. Like it would be good to have some kind of go-to things. I'm curious. Did you ever have a

things. I'm curious. Did you ever have a canned line that you thought was fire, but it was actually really really bad and you just like overused it? I I none

of I'm sure I did, but not one that I used more than twice because once they sort of >> really that's that's your whole test is like >> two interactions, three four I mean, >> you know. Okay. So, if if I have to

answer this question, here's what I'll say. In the book, The Game, which was

say. In the book, The Game, which was like the original thing that I read that was told me that I could learn how to talk to women. They had these canned lines and very early on I copied some from that book and the one that they

used is like, "Did you see the fight outside?" So, I remember

outside?" So, I remember >> Oh, I remember that.

>> Yeah. It was like going up to people like, "Did you see the fight outside?"

And then of course they're interested, but there was no fight outside.

>> Now you're like talking about this thing that never happened. You're like, "Yeah, yeah." It was crazy. Uh, and so I

yeah." It was crazy. Uh, and so I discovered very quickly that any canned line that was based on something that wasn't reliably true, like, "Hey, I haven't met you yet." You know, it it

wasn't worth doing. But that was So, we picked that up pretty quick uh early on.

>> Yeah, I remember the other one from like this is the late 2000s, the Hey, can I get your opinion real quick?

>> The opinion opener. Uh, my sister wants to get a tattoo of her boyfriend, but they've only been dating for 3 months.

She says he's the one. What do you think of that?

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> I remember that was a one.

>> Yeah, we I'm sure I did that a handful of times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And those

of times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And those

those were just they're not true, you know, like and now we're talking about a tattoo that doesn't exist and a boyfriend that doesn't exist. And it's

like, so what's going on with your sister? It's like, uh, what sister?

sister? It's like, uh, what sister?

>> Yeah. So, yeah, it threw those out pretty quick.

>> So, the last time we had you on the podcast, it was what, three years ago?

And I think was it only three years? I

think only. I think that's it. It it

could have been four fourish, but we titled it meet the man who makes like a million dollars a year.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Cuz at the time, what was your involvement?

>> What was what was your involvement with the business?

>> That's right.

>> It was low. It was low. Yeah. Like I

wasn't making videos at the time. I'd

made the first group of videos and my co-founder was I think at that time making videos and I was like working on a Dungeons and Dragons thing that wound up costing me a bunch of money and not getting any views.

>> Yeah.

>> But you were making really solid money off this business. you'd put in sure the the front end work on, but you kind of sat back and you were just collecting this check. How has your business

this check. How has your business developed since then? Developed.

Devolved. Devolved. How has your business devolved? Well, now you're no

business devolved? Well, now you're no longer making a million dollars doing nothing. So, you can't do nothing

nothing. So, you can't do nothing forever and make a million dollars. Ran

that experiment. I forgot we did that title. Man doing nothing. I was like,

title. Man doing nothing. I was like, what do we title this?

>> So, it I I don't know how much we've had a chance to talk about, but I'll give you the rundown. So, at the time, my co-founder was making videos and the business was still doing well. He and I had a falling out. It was a personal

falling out that then became a business falling out because the basis of the the business was the shared friendship. And

once that wasn't there, it was like, "Okay, now that we're business partners, how does this work?" Um, and so there was a period of time where I said to him, I was like, "Look, you're you're going a direction that I don't want to

go with this channel. I'd rather you just not make any videos. I understand

that that could have a negative impact on income, but like I think it's for what I hope to do and the brand. I

actually think it's I don't want to keep making videos. There was a year over a

making videos. There was a year over a year where nothing happened on the Charisma on Command channel. So, it was just a 7 million subscriber channel that just stopped posting and went quiet.

What happened with the business, as you can imagine, was like, that's not good.

So, it was a slow, impressively steady decline from month to month. The amazing

thing about YouTube is you guys know that there's a back catalog and stuff that we'd made five, six years earlier was still feeding our funnel which was still selling our course and people were still getting access. We still had all

the support services in place but we weren't driving new leads and we weren't building brand engagement. So eventually

we fished that pond out and the business is now down, I don't know, 80% from its top, 75% from its top. And so yeah, you

can't do nothing forever. And then we really did nothing. And I then purchased the business from him last December. And

so I am now the sole owner of this business and came back and made videos and basically found like I am operating with a pond that is not stocked. was

like when I think about when and like look at Alex Hormosi. When did Alex Hormosi make the $und00 million? Was it

in two days when he sold his third book?

I would argue no. I would argue that was when he collected the $100 million. He

made the $und00 million over the preceding 5 years. And so it's the same thing in our business, which is like when do we make a sale? Well, we've

interviewed customers. The vast majority of them have known about us for over a year, if not two. So once you're not making content, you're not getting new fish in that pond, if you will. You fish

it out, it's just depleted.

>> So now I've got this really cool channel that I love that it still has my heart.

I've got and we've spoken a lot about charisma, but even in the ways you can hear, I was like, this is not I'm not wearing the suspenders. I'm not saying the lines. I'm not doing this kind of

the lines. I'm not doing this kind of stuff anymore. I've got to figure out,

stuff anymore. I've got to figure out, which I'm excited about what to do with this thing because the answer is not more of what I was doing. I played

around with that. Doesn't work for me.

And it's like it's not what the audience wants anymore. I put up a video two or

wants anymore. I put up a video two or three weeks ago that would have made legitimately hundred to $200,000 back in the day and it did

a tenth or a 20th of the views that it would have gotten back then. And I know the caliber and the quality. It's just

like the the meta has shifted. The

attention is changed. It's just a different thing. So, which is good

different thing. So, which is good because also my attention it was like a dating video and like I said, I've had a girlfriend for a long time. I'm just not there.

>> How much was it to buy the channel?

>> I knew you were going to ask this question.

>> Yeah. I'm curious about like how you were able to finance this.

>> I was thinking about this. I've last

time we talked I was on camera. He was

he was right off. He didn't want to talk about his finances. So, I'm not going to say the exact number because it's >> what I spent he received.

>> Yeah. Um, but I can tell you about the conversations that led up to it was there's, you know, you're looking at how much cash is in the business, you're looking at monthly cash flow, but mostly it's an emotional decision, you know,

with some math behind it of like he worked on this thing for a long time.

What is it worth for him to part from it and he wanted more than the free cash flow that he would have gotten just by sitting on it? Um, and so it was a protracted negotiation. And it started I

protracted negotiation. And it started I think I made my first offer like a year before we actually closed it. So the

interesting thing about the negotiation is it wound up I learned a ton about negotiation but really that it's especially with stuff like this. It's

like highly emotional stuff. It's not

just a calculator math problem. So we

can talk about that if that's >> Yeah. Why not just like sit down over

>> Yeah. Why not just like sit down over coffee or drinks and just say, "Hey, by the end of tonight, we're going to hash this out, >> I think." Well, so we early on we had a

number of conversations about the friendship. And we had several where it

friendship. And we had several where it was like, what's going on with us that we were unable to resolve in a way that felt good for me?

And then it was like, we're taking I I was like, I need time and space from the friendship. And then it became a wow. as

friendship. And then it became a wow. as

I got time. And this is not to say that he's a bad person or anything like that.

I've I've had people that are malicious actors in the business. I had a guy who stole money. This is not him. Like we we

stole money. This is not him. Like we we had a uh different values driving us in different directions in our life, I

think. Uh but when we we eventually were

think. Uh but when we we eventually were able to sit down, but it was like the emotions and the intensity had to cool for a lot. So eventually when we did close it, it was these conversations of

like very frank, what are you looking for in a deal? What do you want? He then

had by that point had a kid. And it was like, look, my priority is for him. He

was like, I want to get cash to put into investments and the bank so that I can spend time with my family. I was like, well, that's good because I want to get a project that I can pour myself into

and work on. So, it was fairly clear that I was going to be the buyer, though. We did go back and forth. I was

though. We did go back and forth. I was

like, "Look, I'm willing to sell." Um,

but we did have that conversation. It

was just not There was way too much other emotional relationship stuff to have it early. In fact, we probably needed to have it around the time that I was on the last podcast. Like, it needed

to be done in 2020 or 2018 or something like that.

>> What would you have done differently looking back?

>> Oh, so much. I would have had a frank I think we were best friends first the business came second and

we in an attempt to stay close to one another I think avoided a lot of conflicts that needed to be had. One of

them though there were many others was there was a significant period of time where I was like driving the business and that was why I was doing nothing at that point is cuz I had carried it up

until that point. Um, I think other conversations that needed to be had and then he did make the videos at that point >> were about real honest conversations

about what we were in the business for and I don't think one is right or wrong but I think for me it has been a vehicle for creative expression and so I have a particular set of things that is

meaningful to me and for him that was it was important but it was more like uh providing a lifestyle for him and his family and those sorts of things and they just create different different

things that you want to do with it. And

I think having the two of us in 50/50 ownership with that level of fundamental what are we doing here?

Like he would have done something very different than I would have done or am going to do with it, I think. What's

your advice to Jack and I? Are you guys 50/50?

Pretty much. Mhm.

>> Yeah.

>> It sounds I spoke to Jack about this.

have the conflict early. Like it it is better to yell at each other and say a mean thing four years earlier than to be

kind, polite, work it out because we were inadvertently in an attempt to be kind to one another in the best way that we knew how. Burying problems that then

became intractable at one point. And

I've spoken to Jack and he said that you guys have had discussions about like what's are are we contributing fairly and what's your role versus my role?

like that these things continue to be spoken about in ways that are high conflict is actually really really healthy I would say and we sort of prided ourselves on being very low

conflict like we just got along and agreed and sort of smoothed over anything that wasn't self-evidently going to resolve itself in a single conversation.

Now, what about in contracts for valuation?

>> Because it seems like that's a very arbitrary number where you could say, "Oh, it's valued at X." When really, it's like, okay, if you if you have a buyer, they're going to pay >> a fifth of that.

>> Sure. So, this is >> this was the big issue was when I made the pitch, it was like, well, I think it's worth this. Where it actually moved, this was I got to give Joe Hudson credit. He offered me this suggestion is

credit. He offered me this suggestion is I had wanted to buy the business. I like

I looked at it was like I for me my sense and I think he would agree at this point is that his creative energy was really going to his family and my creative energy was going into some sort of business or project and it just made

sense for me to be the buyer and him to be the seller. Uh but what actually moved it was when I said, "Hey, I'm actually willing to sell this thing. How

about I've been making you offers. You

tell me it's not high enough that you make a counter. I say that's too much.

We're not able to work it out. why don't

you buy it from me and make me an offer to purchase it?

>> So when he did that and he looked at it and he really went and he sat on the other side of the table and he was like, "Okay, what is this worth?"

>> The numbers came way way more close. So

he made me an offer that was a legitimate offer. He's like, "I would do

legitimate offer. He's like, "I would do it at this price." And I said, "I'll pay you 20% more than that and we can close." And that was it.

close." And that was it.

>> That's a great way to frame it. is a

great way to frame it is like the thing that I had to let go of was >> hey maybe I am selling this thing you know maybe I'll go start a new channel and and we each had clauses which is like you get a shout out or I get a

shout out like we had we we agreed on the broad structure of the deal of like this is what it's going to look like and then it was I'm willing to be on either side of this and that that got us to a

price that was we just saw it very very similarly at that point. And how is your relationship today?

>> It's much better. We had a period of time where we weren't talking. When I

say better, it's like we're we were best friends for for 20 years almost.

>> Um about 20. And where we are now is we are I have well wishes for him. We're

friendly. We're cordial. We are cool.

Every now and then we catch up on the phone and have a long conversation. He's

got a young family. He's got like two little kids that are, you know, any time to talk to him is like, "Okay, I just got one down for a nap." Like that sort

of a thing. Um it's it's much better. My

my big regret is that I think we we were we were going to wind up here. He was

going to end up with a young family not working on this sort of a thing because that was what was important to him and I was going to wind up at the stage of my life without a young family working on this project. I wish that we could have

this project. I wish that we could have had conversations earlier about not even the business, the friendship because really what was going on that created the business problem is we were

codependently uh altering who we were in order to try to make the relationship work. So just

for instance, like he was living in California and not marrying his girlfriend and not having kids because I wasn't doing those things. And there

were ways in which I was sort of being more like him in ways that didn't feel comfortable to me to try to maintain this closeness. As soon as we split, it

this closeness. As soon as we split, it was like he started doing his thing all out. I've been doing my thing all out.

out. I've been doing my thing all out.

And I think unfortunately the uh the closeness that we were trying to protect wasn't allowing us to grow into the people that we honestly were. So, how's

the business doing today then?

>> What is your definition of how? No, I

mean I told you the the the revenue is off 70 to 80% off its top. Um the you know we had an offer that to from somebody else to buy that would have

enabled me to retire in just about any place in America. Maybe not Los Angeles in the place that I currently am. Um but

it is it feels like u really fertile ground honestly. It feels like I have

ground honestly. It feels like I have the opportunity to come in and do what I did in 2015, which is to find something new. When I came in in 2015, there

new. When I came in in 2015, there weren't any other charisma coaches.

There was no charisma breakdowns. It was

a fairly innovative thing on YouTube at the time. And now, which is cool,

the time. And now, which is cool, there's all these other charisma coaches and they're on podcasts and they're doing fine and they have phrases to say in these situations. What the business needs now is like it's actually in a

competitive industry and it was I don't like being in a competitive industry. I

want to do my own thing. So what it needs I think is a year or two of R&D and development of deeper internal work which is reflective of the stuff that I've been doing for the last decade and

we can chat about if it makes sense but uh yeah it's revenue down hope skyhigh.

Why not just do a new channel? I love I love this too much. I love the name and so this is Could you still do the same name or no? Yeah. So, this was when I when I was thinking of I was so protective. I wanted to buy it and I was

protective. I wanted to buy it and I was like, "Oh, I could just sell it. I could

just do it into a channel. I could just take those those proceeds, roll it in."

I think what I really want to offer to someone >> when I was uh 18 and you know, it sounds like you had a similar thing like trying to learn to talk to girls. I didn't have a big brother. There was no one that I was able to go to and ask that question.

And I uncovered the game and I was like, "Oh my god." Mhm.

>> And then as I grew out of it, like I couldn't stick with the author Neil Strauss and get I didn't like, you know, he didn't have the next phase of how to be a dad or anything like that. And so

what I really want to offer someone as a place where they can drop in as a 16-year-old or 17year-old and stick with the company through their 30s and 40s through the different life stages. And

for that reason, I want the back catalog. I like everything that we

catalog. I like everything that we talked about today. It's just not what interests me as a 38-year-old guy, right? So, what I want to talk about is

right? So, what I want to talk about is the inner work and self-esteem and and all of those like those more fundamental pieces. And I think it'd be really cool

pieces. And I think it'd be really cool if those were housed under one company so that someone knew it was like almost a vertically integrated self-improvement company that you could wherever you enter there's going to be something for you in 5 years that is different from

where you are today.

>> But you're still clearly making money with the business. And you did mention when we weren't filming that Bitcoin was the best investment you ever made. I'm

curious, where are you investing your money today? So, I'm actually So, this

money today? So, I'm actually So, this is this is maybe we'll get into it here, Grant. Are

Grant. Are >> you gonna buy a house?

>> No. No,

>> absolutely not.

>> Okay. Um I don't know if you So, I am not um I've realized it's taken me to 38 years old. I don't like doing the practical thing. And we discussed this

practical thing. And we discussed this cuz you're like, "Dude, you could take that rental money and you could buy a home instead and you could get value out of it." And I have made decisions that

of it." And I have made decisions that are seemingly from a math perspective very foolish. Uh, one of the things that

very foolish. Uh, one of the things that I think I'm going to do because it just feels good is I was I had money that I put into a retirement fund for like you get a 401k, you get the the SE IRA. I

want to take it out and take the penalty just because I don't when I I want my investments to be a reflection of the things that I'm betting on and the world that I want to exist in. and having a

retirement fund there that is like I can't touch this till I'm 59 and a half years old. That's not a world where I

years old. That's not a world where I succeed in business, right? That's a

world where I'm like counting on a nest egg. That's more like my parents that

egg. That's more like my parents that were, you know, they had careers and they had fixed incomes and they knew what they were going to be making. So,

I'm actually pulling a lot of my investments out of the market. I'm going

to leave some in the the S&P and putting it into hiring firing like investing in the business again in >> How much money do you need in the business though? Well, it's it and this

business though? Well, it's it and this is the other thing. It's not even about the business having money. It's just I just don't like it in a retirement fund.

It just doesn't feel >> but you're going to need money later anyway.

>> It doesn't feel aligned for me. And I

know that might sound >> but there could be investments that align with you.

>> Sorry. Having an IRA, having a fund that I am not allowed to touch to >> self-control. It's just it's discipline.

>> self-control. It's just it's discipline.

>> Yes. Yes. But I can't spend it on myself, right? I can't I can't spend it

myself, right? I can't I can't spend it on the business. I can't spend it on a home. I can't spend it on anything. It

home. I can't spend it on anything. It

has to go into a public equity.

>> Maybe instead you decide what you're going to spend it on first.

>> Sure. Sure.

>> Before you pull it out because if you pull it out just to throw it in an individual account and then you're paying a fee to have >> I think you're going to do it anyway.

>> No, no, no. Let me talk a smaller sum of money that's compounding and so I'm going to talk. Okay.

you're going to have to pay I think I believe it's a 10% penalty% >> and then you're also going to have to pay tax >> in the state of California.

>> So I'm looking at likeary income. So you're going to pay

income. So you're going to pay >> uh my guess probably in what the 30 something% bracket you're going to pay another 10% to the state 43 and then you're going to pay another 10% in

penalty 53. Yeah.

penalty 53. Yeah.

>> Like okay so you're losing half of your money. So, if you have $200,000

money. So, if you have $200,000 invested, which would, you know, for retirement money, you know, is going to be, I'm guessing, on the higher end, you're going to have $100,000 left, you would be much better off just keeping it

in the account and working harder and making an extra $100,000 doing anything else other than cashing out. Okay? Okay.

So, I'll give you the other the the flip. And I don't know if you've felt

flip. And I don't know if you've felt this way, but there's been a number of times in my life where uh where I've done dumb things that don't make sense, but because I put the bet on myself,

something internally in me changes. So,

like when I quit my job, a lot of people would have advised, hey, have a second thing lined up before you leap. I have

found that this habit that I have of burning the boats and just being like, I'm got an idea, dude. Yeah. If I could buy your 401k, >> maybe >> if I'm able to take that over and give

you cash up front and then >> I love this.

>> I don't know if there's a way I could do this, but I'm telling you right now, I would buy it at whatever your pre-tax value is.

>> Don't do deals with this guy. He's going

to be like, "Okay, so you're at 200.

You're going to end up with 100. I'll

give you 102 because he's going to make it complicated for two grand."

>> The compounded value of this over time.

Why wouldn't I be able to take that over? If you want to sell it, then also

over? If you want to sell it, then also sell it to me because whatever he's paying, it's going to be pennies on the dollar. I'll have a better option.

dollar. I'll have a better option.

>> I would give you whatever you'd be left over with after tax.

>> I don't even know if such a thing is possible.

>> Possible. I would love to be able to buy people's 401ks if they need cash. I'll

buy your 401k. I'll buy your Roth IRA.

Give it to me >> and and maybe we work something out because if you're going to cash out anyway, >> what do you want? The government to get the money or you want

>> Graham to get the money? I would do way more with that money when I'm 59 and a half and compounded that like 10x from where it is today. Then what's the government going to do? They're going to

blow it. They're going to spend it.

blow it. They're going to spend it.

>> This is this is where we need to get most conversations.

>> Am I am I incorrect? No, I hear you correct.

>> Well, so what's interesting is so so okay, just stepping back. This is always interesting to me.

>> You clearly are passionate about finances. You know what I mean? It's not

finances. You know what I mean? It's not

just intelligence. It's emotional wisdom to you to like behave in certain ways, you know? It's like it's not just, oh,

you know? It's like it's not just, oh, that's that's a foolish way to approach it. It's like it activates you.

it. It's like it activates you.

>> There is I'm I feel similarly but in a different direction. Like I get turned

different direction. Like I get turned on when I make bold, daring decisions where I bet on myself and it unlocks something inside of me. So like

something where you benefit and I be like great.

>> Yeah. But you could do the same thing.

All you have to do is open a credit card and max it out.

>> I don't want to do that. I just don't want a retirement account. That's it. I

I actually don't want a retirement account. Like that's that's feels really

account. Like that's that's feels really good for me to say and do because I only did it I did it unconsciously. I did it because I was told to by some financial person without an understanding of the

implications and I just want >> that doesn't make it automatically bad though. Not bad just not for me. I I

though. Not bad just not for me. I I

don't I'm not advising anybody to do this but I don't want it.

>> Okay. But I I will say here's me trying to speak your language.

>> Yeah. Hit me language. I see. I've got

I've gotten activated.

>> It's It's your language. You got him act. That's one word for it. No, for

act. That's one word for it. No, for

your language, I would say >> you are confining yourself >> to a certain identity, a person that needs to have the burn the the boats

burned in order to >> invoke action. And I don't think that's the case. I think that you can

the case. I think that you can >> relinquish the identity that you want to hold to yourself. Say that you're not that person. you are whoever you want to

that person. you are whoever you want to be whenever you want to be that person and then prove to yourself that you know that you are not the the type of person that needs to be held slave to these

ideas that you have about yourself. No.

So there's uh totally hear you. There's

you know I was a philosophy major and one of the things that I've always been is like I have to rebel against a thing right but if you're rebelling against a retirement fund you are still a slave to the retirement fund just in a different

direction. Like the person that has to

direction. Like the person that has to do it because everyone else is doing it is a slave to public opinion. But the

person that can't do the retirement fund because everyone else is doing it is also a slave to public opinion. So I

hear you there. I will not lock myself into it just because I have an old identity. It'll be a practically

identity. It'll be a practically informed real time thing. I'm going to look at all the implications and and and dig into it. I'm not going to be just be have some sort of reasonable justification aside from burning the

boats >> or or like I want to make this in this higher that I'm absolutely betting on and I trust it. Yeah,

>> because then it'll even feel better and it will motivate you even more than just like why did I even do that?

>> I totally agree. If you want to burn boats, >> two things you could do. One is there's something called a hardship withdrawal on the 401k. If you get down so low that you need that money, I believe there are

certain conditions that if you meet them, you could wave that 10% penalty. I

don't think I'm going to be there. But

yeah.

>> Okay. The other one find a way to put you there.

>> Yeah. The other one though, we're getting there. The other one though is

getting there. The other one though is if you want to like burn the boats, you make a bet with me and then you say, "Hey, if I don't do XYZ by this time, I give you >> $50,000.

>> That's it. That's it. That's what you're That's what you're cooking up.

I'll give you money." I like I hope they realize it to charity instead of you.

>> Yeah. What are you going to do with it, dude? literally nothing.

dude? literally nothing.

>> I'm going to put it in my 401c. What

this? It's insane what this guy does and and he does his friends. It's

motivation. Look, I'm fine with it.

>> Motivation. He He doesn't want to. See,

Jack doesn't want to pay.

>> I want Graham to have it. Jack, can you just let me give Graham $50,000 for no reason?

>> Really don't want Graham to have like so badly. Don't want

badly. Don't want >> Jack wants it himself. That's why

>> I Well, if I No, no. Literally give it away. Give it to anybody except Graham

away. Give it to anybody except Graham and I. Anybody. Anybody. Well, so this

and I. Anybody. Anybody. Well, so this is such an interesting thing and maybe we don't need to go deep, but it's so obvious to me that how emotional money is. And I experienced this in the

is. And I experienced this in the negotiation with my co-founder. Like you

have enough money, you don't need my $50,000 having 50,000 doesn't mean [ __ ] to you.

You know what I mean? Like at a lit and to me I'm fine. I don't need to take my money out. It's it's all these like

money out. It's it's all these like deeply emotional decisions that I think get dressed up rationally, you know? And

that is the part that I find exciting about money is to use it as an emotional trigger rather than as this thing that I'm just trying to have more of. So, but but there also is such thing

of. So, but but there also is such thing as reality. And at a certain point, you

as reality. And at a certain point, you have a girlfriend. You guys are moving in together. You might want to have

in together. You might want to have kids. I don't know if you do. You might

kids. I don't know if you do. You might

want, you might not want. And you don't know what you'll want at some point in the future.

>> I want to argue this with you. Yeah. So,

this all presumes, and I think it's important. Look, analysis. You see, I'm

important. Look, analysis. You see, I'm a pretty heady guy. I can do analysis.

I've talked to Chachi PT. I'm aware of the 10% penalty. These are not, this is not news to me. This last eight years has been about letting go of living from this my ego knows what to do. Oh, well,

in 5 years I'm going to do this. All

this like math in the head of I did this. That's living from an analytical

this. That's living from an analytical ego infused mind. But there is this other way which you could argue is a more feminine perspective which is what feels good right now. And I know that is anathema because you guys talk to a lot

of people who do that and they're impulsive with their credit cards or Caleb Hammer talks to these people and they like, you know, are making horrible decisions based on momentary feelings. I

have found that there for me when I align myself with my own deeper intuition, even if it doesn't make sense, even if I take a hit in the short term, the ripple effects in my life are

just so much more positive. And instead

of optimizing for what my brain thinks is going to get me the most money, maybe it puts me in financial hardship. And

maybe as a result of it, my girlfriend's business takes off, which by the way, that is not because of me, but like she's shocked me with what she's capable of. And if I'd made her a stay-at-home

of. And if I'd made her a stay-at-home mom, she wouldn't have the successful business that she has right now. So the

idea that I'm going to math it all out in my head, I don't really subscribe to anymore. I'm like a much more

anymore. I'm like a much more analytically informed but intuitive decision maker these days. and I'm

happier as a result.

>> There are plenty of other ways that you could get rid of that 401k. I'm just

saying there are plenty of other ways than just giving it to the government.

>> I love that. I love that.

>> I'm going to make sure you don't just poof, it's gone.

>> I'd rather you pay taxes when you're 59 and a half >> in a lower bracket without the penalty.

>> Maybe it'll help him deal with the next fire, you know, if I give them a little bit more.

>> You listen, you What's funny about taxes that people don't realize is that you could always pay more.

>> Mhm. So if that >> So if I feel bad about it next year, I'll just Yeah, I got you.

>> You know, believe it or not, they have a fund that you could send money to pay down the national debt.

>> Really?

>> Yes.

>> I don't want to, but I get it.

>> You could you could literally do that and you get a deduction for it. So if

you want to help pay down the national debt, do everyone a favor. You get to send your money into this black hole of spending and it just gone.

>> Yeah.

>> You could fund the next second.

the government about that.

>> And then I'm just gonna go around and be like, "Hey, that one was on me, everybody." Okay.

everybody." Okay.

>> For all of you, all of you.

>> Yesterday, 3:01 p.m. and 15 seconds.

That was me.

>> That was your boy. Honestly, I might do that if I can buy a second. I'm going to look into it. That would make a great YouTube video. I paid down the national

YouTube video. I paid down the national debt for one second, >> bro. To have everyone in America

>> bro. To have everyone in America indebted to you for one second. Almost

worth it. If you want the math here, here is the math on how much we spend every single second as a country.

>> We spend $7 trillion dollars a year to run the United States. The deficit,

meaning we spend more than what we take in, the deficit's 2 trillion.

>> But if we take the $7 trillion that we spend every single year overall, divide that by the number of seconds in the year, that comes to roughly $222,000

spent every single second.

>> Second. a second to run the United States.

>> I was thinking about it, but I I take it back. Maybe I'll buy a tenth of a

back. Maybe I'll buy a tenth of a second.

>> Yeah. So, if you want to run the United States, you send them $222,000 and your second >> could be owned by you. You could fund the government for a second.

>> You know, there's people that like sell stars and that kind of stuff or like those I I wonder if this could be like a name name the second that you just paid for.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And you could get a you put your name on it.

>> This is even crazier. per minute. The

government's spending $13.34 million a minute. So just in the time it's taken to say this, we've spent $13 million.

>> Crazy.

>> Where does it go?

I don't know. I kind of know. I could

look at the chart, but anyways, I I hear you guys on the retirement thing. I hear

you on the mis the the poor decision-making in the government and the uh dislike for just forking over all the money. I'm I'm not opposed. It makes

the money. I'm I'm not opposed. It makes

me wonder like if what was it $13 million a minute if if every minute they were just like okay $13 million goes towards building you know actual affordable housing in some location $13

million goes to repaving all of the streets in this city 13 million like if you were to just like isolate it like >> it would be fun as like a slot machine where someone's like ching and it's like oh we're going to fix this road ching oh

this person >> allocated way better than whatever >> got I want it to be random and you know what would be cool is just every minute just a random person in the United States that has a social security number

>> a bridge somewhere.

>> No, just gets a million bucks in their >> Why not?

>> I think if they gamified it, they could get a lot more engagement. That's for

sure.

>> Yeah, but it's just like every day you just check your bank account and be like, "Was I the lucky one who got that million dollars?" And it's just it's a

million dollars?" And it's just it's a shing. But there's so much money out

shing. But there's so much money out there that why why not why can't they have fun with it? If you really think if they just did that every day, cost $365 million. Not that much money in the

million. Not that much money in the grand scheme of things.

>> That's thinking like a social media marketer because that's like what's Mr. Beast going to do compared to that? Like

you make a video about it.

>> You're going to win whatever whatever.

The funny thing is when you look at that budget like $365 million a year for the government budget is is a rounding error. The Pentagon loses more money

error. The Pentagon loses more money than that probably on like a weekly basis. And if you're talking about

basis. And if you're talking about giving 365 people a million dollars, one new person a day just wakes up and it's in their account, that would be awesome

>> because they they they balance the budgets in in hundreds of billions. And

so to take not even like a hundth of that and just give it back to the people at random.

Well, what's interesting that I mean there's a lot of issues obviously with the federal government, but one of the things that you're making me realize is with a budget that large to have such

poor brand association is really pathetic. Like imagine if you had all

pathetic. Like imagine if you had all that money to spend, you had to sell a movie or get someone to your YouTube channel. Like you'd figure out a way to

channel. Like you'd figure out a way to have positive brand association. But I

guess because they're also taking all the money, but like man to be spending all a lot of it is social security, Medicare, healthcare. I think that works

Medicare, healthcare. I think that works out to be about two trillion dollars of that. It's just like one segment. And

that. It's just like one segment. And

then there's the military and then there's interest on the national debt.

And then just in those categories, you're at $4 trillion a year. Yeah.

>> And then $3 trillion has to get allocated elsewhere. Yeah. So yeah,

allocated elsewhere. Yeah. So yeah,

>> this is for conversation for recursive.

>> Very very it's expensive. It shouldn't

shouldn't have to be, you know. I I

think the private sector would do better.

>> I just have everyone.

>> I believe you.

>> We've been going over two hours, you know. Don't get Graham on the private

know. Don't get Graham on the private sector.

>> But uh I think I think the government's got some problems. >> You know what I was >> No, we I think I think most people here agree with you. If you don't, leave a comment, guys. We are so curious to know

comment, guys. We are so curious to know what you think about this subject.

>> We have one last thing for you, Charlie.

>> So, we've cured what we call a tier list, and you're going to go through it and rank everything from the perspective of charisma.

>> Oh, I I've seen you do these.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So, it's S tier all the way down to F tier. You just And I'll announce it to you guys while I just kind of hold Yeah. Do whatever.

Yeah. Do whatever.

>> Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. This is cool.

Well, I want to get this tiermaker.com.

>> Yeah, it's free.

>> Okay, I'm going to do it.

So, I'm going to I just to be clear, none of this is an endorsement of the person or saying that I believe they did or didn't commit the crimes that they're accused of. This is how effective this

accused of. This is how effective this person is at influence writ large. Okay,

Donald Trump, two-time president, no governmental experience beforehand.

He's got to go S tier. Like I said, just undeniable.

I don't think we'll ever see anyone talk themselves into the White House the way that he did.

Andrew Tate. Okay, another easy one.

Wildly, wildly charismatic. I mean, I could break him down a number of ways, but in terms of high conviction, like got it. He can talk. He knows what he's

got it. He can talk. He knows what he's doing. That's an S tier. Who is this

doing. That's an S tier. Who is this next one? Let me see.

next one? Let me see.

>> Nick Fuentes.

>> I know of him. I don't know a lot about Nick Fuentes. Um I mean, you're giving

Nick Fuentes. Um I mean, you're giving me and now I'm on here. [ __ ] >> It's not only people, it's also like things.

>> Yeah. Okay. So, I don't know a lot about Nick Fuentes. Uh I know that he's got a

Nick Fuentes. Uh I know that he's got a huge audience that he's built without the backing of like corporate media and that sort of stuff.

Can you give me some context?

>> No, I would just say if you don't know, just don't just skip it. Skip. I'm going

to skip Elon Musk.

I'm going off charisma here. I think

Elon Musk is a great example of someone with insane amounts of power, insane amounts of horsepower, capital, vision.

If if vision counts as charisma, he definitely and where I'm going to give a caveat here. Like his ability to get

caveat here. Like his ability to get people to follow and work for him is very impressive. But I also from what I

very impressive. But I also from what I understand, he doesn't retain and keep people. Like he he they're interested in

people. Like he he they're interested in the vision and then he burns through them and tosses them. So, from a charisma perspective, he's got some of the worst. I'm going to put him in Dtier.

Gavin Newsome. Don't know a ton about the guy. These are tough ones. Um,

the guy. These are tough ones. Um,

should I rank him or just like I would guess B or C? Bibbs. Bibbs I know a little bit about.

Uh, Young Bieber had a level charisma. Like the guy who got picked up by Usher was just like such a radiant young kid. Mid Bieber, the guy who is now on the Jimmy Fallon show, was

some of the worst charisma ever I'd ever seen. Like he he had the thing that it

seen. Like he he had the thing that it sounds like you have, which is so many people came up to him and oh my god that he just became so low energy, didn't want to engage with anybody.

>> And now I've actually seen him. He's got

that low energy, but he is um he's way more authentic and from the stuff that I've seen, he started streaming lately.

I am going to put him with a generous B, but it's probably more like a C or C++.

Me H that S. Now

>> next, >> I give myself um a stronger B than Bieber.

>> So then you'd put it to the left of him.

>> Okay, I'm going to put it to the left of Bibbs.

Being attractive.

So I wouldn't count this as charisma. I

would count this as a separate category because we see all these people that are hyper attractive and you know they're duds and that sort of thing. But if I had to like compare the power of being

attractive to like where would that like how how does that fit? I think that being attractive is let me see if I I'm gonna I'm gonna put it in B, but it

might even go up to A. It's it's it's very important. um people respond very

very important. um people respond very differently, but I've also seen people that are super attractive just completely ruin it. So, it depends on like relative to average, relative to as

as bad as it can get. Like these are the sorts of questions that I would be curious about. Crying in front of

curious about. Crying in front of people. Um look, I'm all for expression

people. Um look, I'm all for expression of emotion. The way this is phrased,

of emotion. The way this is phrased, this is like I cried on my Diary of a CEO podcast. I cry all the time. Uh, this is

podcast. I cry all the time. Uh, this is just phrased in such a way that it's not crying.

>> That's how Graham phrases to me in the drive over here.

>> Crying in front of people. No, but if it was like being vulnerable, okay, I'm going to give it an A or an S. But, you

know, just crying in front of people with no description, I'm going to put that as a D.

>> Eye contact when shaking hands. This is

this is a C. It's like important but is not gonna, you know, break the bank.

fame.

In terms of influence, it's S tier. Uh

there are a few things that get people to respond differently than fame. We've

all felt it. Like you see that person and if they're hyper famous, just they get basically a pass. Um I don't love it. I didn't make the rules. I don't

it. I didn't make the rules. I don't

advert I think there's a lot of issues with fame, but that is what it is.

Handshake firmness.

I think when done wrong it goes bad and I think it can go really I'm gonna give it like if you have a bad handshake we're talking like C minus D plus level.

If you have a good handshake you're just a C. So I'm going to put it in C.

a C. So I'm going to put it in C.

>> Humor that's A+ or S tier. I would say that's like very very very high. Um

and I want to compare it to fame. I

mean, I've seen funnier people be more liked than famous people, but I'm I'm fame is incredibly powerful. Money,

uh, if people don't know, I mean, in terms of getting responses from people in the world, like how am I how am I understand this? Like, you're like

understand this? Like, you're like walking be flashy, be, you know, throwing money around and bottle service, that sort of thing.

>> Okay, I want it or just have a lot of money.

>> I mean, again, it's like, do I have a million? Do I have 10 million? Do I have

million? Do I have 10 million? Do I have a billion? I'm going to put it in lower

a billion? I'm going to put it in lower than just because it's not as visible a lot of the time and so and again how much money all these questions matter but I'm going to put it in B tier. Um it

it really matters like if you have if you're a billionaire I my brother worked at the club in Las Vegas like there are ways to spend money that get people to do insane [ __ ] and reactions and you can

you can shape the world with money but just the word money like some of it I'm putting in B tier. Mystique. Way

overrated. F tier. Uh, Mystique is not worth it. All this like there's this

worth it. All this like there's this idea that you're going to like go to a a bar and stand on the wall and look really cool and everybody's going to be like, "What? What's going on?" Nothing's

like, "What? What's going on?" Nothing's

going on. Nobody cares. Namedropping.

Um, done lightly actually. Oh, done two, three, four

actually. Oh, done two, three, four times, you start to hurt yourself. So

given that it's called named dropping, I'm going to put that in D tier because you're hurting yourself. Never

apologizing. Okay, so this is a complicated one. Donald Trump never

complicated one. Donald Trump never apologizes. Andrew Tate never

apologizes. Andrew Tate never apologizes. As much as I hate to say

apologizes. As much as I hate to say this and don't acknowledge it, there is uh a way to be that is incredibly effective in terms of getting people to follow you that is never apologizing.

But it has a ton of downsides and I don't know them personally, but I think what goes on internally with Andrew Tate and Donald Trump is not desirable.

So, I'm going to really put it low. I know

that I just said that it's effective, but I don't want people to do this. And

uh and also there's so many ways to do it poorly. Like there's a lot of like

it poorly. Like there's a lot of like for most people way to do it poorly.

>> There's more ways to do it poorly. So,

I'm gonna put it in F tier. Like to do the Andrew Tate, Donald Trump, make it work for you is more likely you're just going to ruin your marriage and ruin your friendships by never apologizing.

So that goes F tier.

>> Posture.

So this is like am I saying good posture or bad posture?

>> Just how important is it? Yeah.

>> How important is posture?

>> Yeah. If someone has great posture, they would be in as you know whatever tier I'm going to give I feel like B. No. C.

It's just not the most important thing.

C. Vocal volume. This is more important.

I'm going to put that.

That's like high B, low A.

>> H. And then we've got two guys that I don't really know. Frentzes and Newsome at the bottom. There you go.

>> Cool.

>> Thank you guys. I hope I got these right.

>> Thank you.

>> Really appreciate you coming on. And uh

thank you by the way for showing up to the index.

>> Yeah, that was so fun. Thank you, man. I

was inspired.

>> Really?

>> Have you shared about that on the pod >> briefly? What's funny is that quite a

>> briefly? What's funny is that quite a few of the people, not that you met, came from a mention I did on the podcast with Alex Ramoszi at the very end. We

only talk about it at the end of the podcast.

>> Uh, but I talked about it, this group with him and we've ended up getting a few people who inquired from that episode.

>> Wow.

>> Uh, but yeah, it's it's just it's a small group of really like highle entrepreneurs investors business owners. We're at like 20 people. I don't

owners. We're at like 20 people. I don't

think we're going to grow it much beyond this point.

>> Uh but every meetup we try to bring on like some new guest. And so the last one we had Chris Camilo, we had Jeremy who we're going to be posting soon. So uh

you know stay tuned on that.

>> You came for our first one.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is really cool.

>> Yeah.

>> Thank you for the invite. I mean I what what inspired me about it was >> it was so cool for you to have this group of people together and to see that you were an attraction but you weren't the main attraction. It was like they

getting to connect with themselves and one another was the main attraction. And

I see so many people who are in the space who it's like you got to be the guru and you got to be on stage for eight hours and do all the thing. And it

was so cool to watch these people get a ton of value by connecting with one another and that made me want to do the same thing.

>> Well, they're mostly more successful than I am. And so like I'm looking to them as like what would you guys do? I

mean, there are people in the group that, you know, manage hundreds of people or have sold companies and like here I am just like making YouTube videos >> and so it's cool to be able to talk to

them and get their opinion outside of YouTube without any like there's no ulterior motive. It's just, you know,

ulterior motive. It's just, you know, you get their advice and they have nothing at stake and so they'll just give you and you know, whatever the truth is. You got to be uh this is

truth is. You got to be uh this is something that I talk about with Charisma. you you set yourself up as the

Charisma. you you set yourself up as the hub instead of a spoke on a wheel. So,

you got to be the person that brings everyone together, which means you don't have to be the most impressive person in the room. You're the person who gathers

the room. You're the person who gathers everybody. So, I was like, "Oh gosh, I

everybody. So, I was like, "Oh gosh, I know this. I have to do this more."

know this. I have to do this more."

>> Well, we're doing a meetup tonight if you if you can go.

>> Yeah, we'll chat. We'll see if I can make it. Cool.

make it. Cool.

>> Cool. Oh, by the way, if you're interested, uh we do have an application in the description. Uh there is a wait list at this point, but just submit your info and we'll be in touch. And that's

it.

>> All right. Thank you, boys.

>> Charlie, thank you so much for coming on. podcast really means a lot. Super

on. podcast really means a lot. Super

super excited for this dinner, this Spotify meet up. I'm excited to practice these new skills we just so hopefully there's an elevator there.

>> Thank you guys.

>> Not your trouble.

>> All right, till next time.

>> See you. And then how much is your 401k so I could buy it?