The Culture That Converts Even the Biggest Cynics with former WD-40 CEO Garry Ridge

You know, I used to introduce myself.

Good day. I'm Gary Ridge. I'm the

consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right chairman and CEO of WD40 company. And I need all the help I

WD40 company. And I need all the help I can get. Gary Ridge is the embodiment of

can get. Gary Ridge is the embodiment of what it means to be a great CEO. That he

took the time to write down how he learned to lead with such humility, I might add, means that we all get to learn how to lead like him. And that can

only be a good thing, said me on the back of Gary's new book. Any dumbass can do it. And having him on this podcast

do it. And having him on this podcast was such a treat. I've known Gary for a bunch of years, and I have learned so much from him. And today was no exception. We talked about some of the

exception. We talked about some of the specific things he did that took WD40, yes, WD40, from a successful company to a wildly successful company. And it's

worth noting it is a remarkable place to work. People love working there and the

work. People love working there and the results prove it. If you're a senior leader that wants to build a great corporate culture, this conversation is absolutely essential. Listening. And for

absolutely essential. Listening. And for

everyone else who wants to work in a culture where we feel loved and seen and love coming to work, well, it's also essential because we have to know what a

great culture looks like if we're going to demand that somebody build it for us.

This is a bit of optimism.

This episode is sponsored by Porsche and their new Macan, which is actually my car. I had it before they called. It's

car. I had it before they called. It's

actually my car and I love it. You know,

I quote you all the time, right? I

believe so.

There there's a story you told me that I have told so many times of uh uh of a time where you on an analyst's call and the analyst said to you, Gary, you

missed your numbers. You know what that you know the story and you said no I didn't. I missed your numbers.

didn't. I missed your numbers.

>> I missed your number.

>> You ran a public company for how many years?

>> 25. 25 years you ran WD40 and it public company but you ran it in the way public companies should be run which is not beholden to the shareholders but rather taking care of your employees and taking

care of your customers. That was how you ran this company. And I love using WD40 as an example because it's not glamorous. It's not tech. It's basically

glamorous. It's not tech. It's basically

a one product company. I know you have line extensions but it's basically a one product company. And I remember when I

product company. And I remember when I first visited your offices if I dare say it was a bit dumpy. Yep. And it defied all of the conventional wisdoms of what great culture is, which is flat screen

TVs, free food, you know, all of this stuff. It was a dumpy office and morale

stuff. It was a dumpy office and morale was high and people loved each other and it was home to them.

>> And this is one of the reasons I love you as a leader and one of the reasons I love WD40 as an example, which is it defies all of the conventional wisdoms of what a lot of modern leaders think makes a great company, especially young leadersh.

>> Where did you learn that?

Well, it went back to when I first met Ken Blanchard.

You know, I became CEO in 1997 and the goal was to take the blue and yellow can with a little red top to the world and I kind of knew with help of friends and people in the organization how to market the product.

>> Were you were you an employee first or you came in as a se as to be?

>> No, I'd been with the company 10 years before that. I started in Australia.

before that. I started in Australia.

Okay.

>> In 1987. Got it. They asked me to move to the US in 1994. In 1997, the CEO retired and for my sins, I got to be

CEO. I knew how to do that. But what was

CEO. I knew how to do that. But what was on my mind, Simon, was we were going to have a company that the sun would never set on.

>> How were we going to create an environment where people knew and felt like they belonged, knew what they did mattered, and made a difference, could

make choices, and there was a low level of fear. and I didn't know how to do it.

of fear. and I didn't know how to do it.

And then I met one of our dear friends, Dr. Ken Blanchard.

>> I went back to school. I was already CEO >> who wrote the one minute manager and many other books >> and many others.

>> And I went back to school and he was one of my professors and uh I learned the >> When you say you went back to school figuratively.

>> Yeah. I I enrolled in a master's degree at USD.

>> Oh, so you actually went back to school?

Yes. Okay. which was quite quite funny because I was already two years as CEO of a US public company and I go into the classroom and they said, "What the hell are you doing here? You're already CEO, >> right?"

>> right?" >> And I said, "I want to confirm what I think I know and learn what I don't know and there's a lot I don't know." And I got to get alongside Ken and learned the

the essence of servant leadership, which are, you know, making people feel like they actually belong. I don't think people appreciate that leadership is a learnable, teachable skill, you know,

and some people learn it young. They

have a coach, a parent, you know, something happens in their early career, early life that teaches them this. For

the rest of us, like you're going to have to do the work otherwise you're only going to learn from the people you work for. And that's kind of a lottery.

work for. And that's kind of a lottery.

If you're really lucky and work for somebody amazing, you'll learn all the great lessons. But I think a lot of us

great lessons. But I think a lot of us learn a lot of bad lessons. I always

tell people, if you want to become a leader, you have to study. Mhm.

>> And you literally as CEO go back to school proving it's never too late.

>> It's never too late.

>> So what so what were some of the things that you learned from Ken that >> you're this relatively young CEO, not you've been in the job for a couple years already. What were some of the

years already. What were some of the changes that you knew you knew you had to make to the culture of WD40 to build the company that you imagined?

>> Well, first I had to change myself.

Yeah.

>> And you know the first part of that course I did was understanding who you are as a leader. And now that I'm refired, not retired, I coach CEOs. And

one of the things that I think is amazing is they don't realize how their behavior impacts the people around them because I don't think most CEOs get up every day, Simon, and say, "I'm going to

go to work today and be a jerk."

>> I don't think they do that. But you're

right. They're looking at successful people who have huge egos, little empathy, want to micromanage, think they have all the answers, don't

really value learning, and they think that's the way to go. So, the first thing was to learn who I was.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, I had to change. You know,

I I walked around for I don't know months with praise somebody written on my hand because I had to get comfortable with the fact that it wasn't about me.

It was about the people I had the privilege.

>> What kind of leader were you prior?

>> Be brief, be bright, be gone. That was

me.

>> Yeah.

>> I was a turbo D on the disc scale. You

know, I I really thought that I had to be command and control. And I pretty soon learned that my job was not to command and control. I'll tell you a story. I'll leave the name out. I met

story. I'll leave the name out. I met

this leader who I met him at a conference and he was asked to introduce me and he was like he was like doing his best impression of General Patton >> you know was walking up and down the

stage talking like this and really loud and you know be brief be you know what you said you know and uh he introduces me and I'm and I'm literally thinking to myself what's with the general patent impression you know I go up I do my

thing and then when we when I'm off the stage he and I go off and we're just by ourselves walking down the hallway leaving the conference and he was humble and curious

>> and and and asking me questions and and really really smart, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, you're amazing.

What's with that?

>> And you realize that wherever it came from in his career, he had made the same decision that for my credibility, I've got to be strong. I've got to be commanding. That way, people will see me

commanding. That way, people will see me as a leader, blah blah blah. And it kept working, right? He kept getting

working, right? He kept getting promoting through his career.

He wasn't he was the number two person at the time and um and he made it to the big job and I thought to myself, this is

so exciting. Finally, he got the job.

so exciting. Finally, he got the job.

He'll now relax, be his wonderful, fantastic, curious, inspiring self. And

he didn't. He made it to the top job and he still kept up this weird general patent thing. And it, you know, he was

patent thing. And it, you know, he was effective and smart, but I don't think he commanded the kind of loyalty he could have or the kind of inspiration that he could have or the kind of innovation that he could have. If it

keeps working to the point you get to CEO, which is exactly what happened to you, this you described yourself as not the leader you wanted to be, but it kept working.

>> What was it that you finally make it to the big job, you'd think, well, it's gotten me here. I'm just going to keep going. What what was it that you said to

going. What what was it that you said to yourself "No now is the time to change."

>> You know, it's interesting. I was on a flight from Los Angeles to Sydney, and as you do when you fly, you take stuff to read. And I read two things. I read a

to read. And I read two things. I read a quote that's associated to the Del Lama.

Our purpose in life is to make people happy. If we can't make them happy, at

happy. If we can't make them happy, at least don't hurt them. And then I read a second quote from Aristotle that says, "Please in the job puts perfection in

the work." And what I thought around me

the work." And what I thought around me was, why aren't people enjoying their what they're doing?

>> Yeah.

>> And it really became clear to me it that it was about the leadership, you know, how did we really create this atmosphere where people were going to belong?

>> Yeah. And you know, I learned from people like you, like Ken and others that I was listening to all you guys what you were preaching and I'm thinking

this has to work. Why are these smart guys talking about it if it doesn't?

Well, I was fortunate that I could actually try it.

>> So, we came up with a truly great purpose in the organization. Our purpose

was to create positive lasting memories.

that was to be the purpose of the organization. So what changed in my mind

organization. So what changed in my mind was I couldn't do this alone and if we were going to expand to 176 countries around the world which we did and if the

sun was never going to set on the people in the organization I had to make sure that they are in a in an environment where they felt safe enough to make

decisions and be brave because >> this is simple that it's not easy and time is not your friend >> and you know you've got to put the platform in place. I love one of the

quotes you had in your book where it says culture equals values plus behavior.

>> Well, I I took it and I adapted it and I said culture equals values plus behavior times consistency.

>> Because a lot of people think that building great cultures in organizations is fairy dust. You sprinkle a little fairy dust on the organization, you bring in one training program, slap a few people around the head, tell them to

behave differently and go away and things will change. They don't.

>> This has to be something you work on day after day after day. So I really decided that I needed to change because I wasn't capable of being the leader I wanted to

be leading the way I was in the be brief, be bright, be gone area. And

Simon, to be honest, it was scary >> cuz I had to start saying I don't know.

You know, I used to introduce myself, good day. I'm Gary Ridge. I'm the

good day. I'm Gary Ridge. I'm the

consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right chairman and CEO of WD40 company and I need all the help I can get. Now, it's interesting when you

can get. Now, it's interesting when you ask people for help and you do it sincerely, how much help you get. Yeah.

The courage because it's easier to do the other. It's easier to put on the the

the other. It's easier to put on the the general patent act. It's easier to to be the strong commanding especially if you make it to that level. You have some degree of ambition and ego. You don't

get there without it. It's the easier option to say I don't know as you said is very very scary for somebody who's supposed to represent I mean we all think our credibility comes from our

intelligence or our ability to make good decisions but it it doesn't. So it

raises the question then where does the credibility of a leader come from?

Authenticity.

>> What does that mean in a modern context?

>> I think it means >> it's an overused term.

>> Yeah. I think it means acting in a way that's true to your heart consistently and that's what we have to do.

>> Yeah.

>> I say great leaders spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room and unfortunately a lot of leaders think they're corporate royalty.

>> You know you saw our our offices and then you saw our new offices as well.

>> You know I remember having a fight basically with our architect when we were designing our new office. I said,

"My office is to be 10 by 12." And the plans came back four times with a bigger office for me. They said, "Now you're the CEO. You've got to have a bigger

the CEO. You've got to have a bigger office." I said, "No, I don't.

office." I said, "No, I don't.

>> We're not going to have bigger offices.

We're not going to have private parking spaces. We're going to have a place

spaces. We're going to have a place where people feel comfortable that we are all there with one thing in mind, and that's to help each other succeed."

>> That's why we I I called us a tribe, not a team.

I want to go down that path because I find that really interesting. One of the things that I've changed in the way I talk about companies and and teams since I since I started um is is how to refer

to the the group, right? And I used to say family. We're like a family. And

say family. We're like a family. And

one is confronted with the reality of a business which is if it's a family, no one ever can ever be removed. No one can ever graduate to go work for another company, you know. And the reality is,

and I think this is the hardest lesson for a leader to learn, and it's one of the reasons why not everybody's qualified to be a leader. I hate to say it, because the one of the hardest

lessons a leader learns is I have to be loyal to the group before I'm loyal to an individual. Like, I can sacrifice one

an individual. Like, I can sacrifice one person to save the group, but I cannot sacrifice the group to save one person, which is an excruciating lesson to learn. Mhm.

learn. Mhm.

>> And we try hard never to get to that point, but the reality is that's what it is.

>> And so I'm confronted with, well, that's not family then, is it, >> you know, because family, it's forever.

>> And so then, you know, you start adopting team, you know, we're we're a great team. And you can trade players

great team. And you can trade players out and you can bring players in and players can go away. But even that team is very for me, it's taken from from the finite game.

>> Yeah.

>> It's taken from this is winning and losing. I'm going to put a team together

losing. I'm going to put a team together for the transaction of this season and then I'm going to change my mind next season. And I I don't like that either.

season. And I I don't like that either.

It's it's also wholly imperfect. Your

use of the word tribe, I think, captures exactly what we're trying to do, which is the the loyalty and love we have for the family, but the infinitess of the team that as you keep saying, you know,

this is this is an ever burning light.

This we want to keep this going forever.

When when did you discover the word tribe as being the perfect articulation of what a company should feel like and be like?

>> Well, when I think about a tribal leader, >> yeah, >> if you go back and you were to look at tribal leaders from the beginning of mankind, >> what was the responsibility of a tribal leader?

>> To be a learner and a teacher.

>> What's the responsibility of a leader of an organization to be an ever learner and ever teacher? Because if we are not learning what we need to learn and teaching what we need to teach to the

tribe members, the tribes are going to go extinct.

>> Yeah.

>> And then we had a just cause. Our just

cause was a group of people that come together to protect and feed each other.

That was our just cause >> as a tribe.

>> So a tribe is not referring to any indigenous group.

>> It's referring to where we all started from mankind. And then if you think

from mankind. And then if you think about attributes of a tribe, a tribe has values. So I could talk about values. A

values. So I could talk about values. A

tribe has people within it that have specialized skills. So everyone in the

specialized skills. So everyone in the organization has something to give.

They're warriors, right? They're there

to to protect and feed each other.

>> There's a place of community and they love to celebrate. So I I was able to look at these attributes and say, "If you're a member of our tribe, you will be a forever learner and ever teacher.

We're going to have values. We're going

to respect everybody in there. And the

other thing we're going to do is we're going to be future focused.

>> Because if a tribe leader is not future focused and they've put their tribe next to a lake that dries up, >> the the tribe will have nothing to drink and they will die. So we had to be

always looking to the future. So but the number one essence, Simons, was we are learners and teachers. We're forever

learners, forever teachers.

>> By the way, that's magical. Um, and as you said, a a tribal leader has a responsibility for the protection and preservation of the of the tribe. And so

money is important in an organization because that's the lake. That's the

fuel. That's the sustenance. And if the money dries up, the tribe dies.

>> There's a group of people we're talking to. We're preaching to the converted and

to. We're preaching to the converted and >> they're just nodding and enjoying and finding new ways to say all the magical things that you and I both believe, which is great. There are also the cynics out there who go, "Sounds nice,

sounds soft, sounds mushy. you quoting

the Dalai Lama and Aristotle, you know, uh, good for you. We have to talk about it because it's the proof, which is which is you still believe in making money. You still believe in in a

money. You still believe in in a successful company, but you just believe that you take care of the people and the money comes as opposed to focusing on the money and the people are you taking care of people is if you have the time and energy. It's not a nice to have.

and energy. It's not a nice to have.

>> So, let's talk about the performance of WD40.

>> Sure.

>> How big was WD40 when when you came in?

Uh market cap about 300 million and when you left >> 3.6 billion.

>> Okay. Uh stock price or when I started $18 260. And how many countries were you in

260. And how many countries were you in when you started?

>> 70. And you left?

>> 176.

So it's worth noting and it's very important to recognize that basically one product company. Yes,

there are line extensions that there are copycat brands, right?

>> Y >> some of them have decent product. Y

it's, you know, it's it's fair to say.

>> Y >> and yet WD40 has global recognition.

>> Y >> brand preference.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know what your marketing budgets are, but like I don't think I've ever seen a WD40 ad.

>> Probably. Well, we you we're probably not >> probably not not to me.

>> Not for you.

>> I do have a can of WD40. Yeah. It's the

funny thing. It's like there's basics in a household. I always have a bottle of

a household. I always have a bottle of cheap white wine in my cupboard because if you spill red wine, white wine gets it out. So, I always have a bottle of

it out. So, I always have a bottle of cheap white wine to wash out red wine and I always have a can of WD40 for every squeaky hinch or thing that doesn't quite work.

>> Of course, >> you have to. It goes with the house.

>> Yeah.

>> Eight out of 10 households in the US have a can.

>> Isn't that amazing?

>> Isn't that amazing?

>> Um, and the other 10 just have nothing.

I mean, the other two have nothing.

We interrupt this podcast with an ad with authenticity. I was super excited

with authenticity. I was super excited to hear that Porsche wanted to sponsor the podcast because I love their brand.

I actually own a Macan myself. Then came

Patrick Long, an actual race car driver, and he took me out on the track. This is

2 minutes of me with a massive grin on my face. At least that's how I remember

my face. At least that's how I remember it.

How about the latest GT3 with the Visock package? I think they're calling this

package? I think they're calling this one Cartinia yellow. This is awesome.

This car is built and bred for a racetrack. So, there's my blue cone. I

racetrack. So, there's my blue cone. I

turn my head all the way through the corner. Patient, patient, patient. And

corner. Patient, patient, patient. And

then go.

Feeling all right.

>> It's the feeling of no control.

>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

>> When you see things coming at you at extremely high speed, >> right? And and yeah, visually, when you

>> right? And and yeah, visually, when you don't really know this place, there's a lot that meets the eye. So, yeah. You

tell me. When you've had enough, we'll bring it in.

>> I mean, to be honest with you, I want to drive.

>> Yeah. No, I I get it. I get it. That's

like That's that element of control.

>> Like being the passenger is a lot less fun.

>> Oh, yeah. Well, what do you say?

>> Go ahead. One more.

>> All right. One more. He's He's still in it. All right, here we go.

it. All right, here we go.

>> Not too much.

>> All right, that's fun.

>> I realized what a metaphor for life this was. You know, I was legitimately like I

was. You know, I was legitimately like I had legitim legit fear when we first started. We're going fast. I'm getting I

started. We're going fast. I'm getting I can't really see because the camera, you know, you're talking to me while you're driving with one hand and we're, you know, coming into a turn at 95 miles an hour. Hold the wheel lightly, relax, and

hour. Hold the wheel lightly, relax, and you can do difficult things more easily when you're calm.

>> That was wonderful. Too over too soon.

>> Super fun.

>> So, it's worth noting that this is not fairy dust and pixies. This is this is this is a this is hard business.

>> It is. And there's a formula.

>> Go on.

>> Yeah. So you and I, Simon, could write a really nice strategic plan, right? We'll

write a nice strategic plan. We'll take

it along to some smart professor and say, "Mark up our strategic plan."

>> Right?

>> Great strategic plan, you guys. 70 out

of 100.

>> Right?

>> But if 30% of the people go to work every day passionately executing against that strategic plan,

>> 30 time is a number. But if 80 or 90% of the people in the organization go to work every day and passionately

executing against that strategic plan, 80 * 70 is a much bigger number. So the

formula is very simple.

>> Yeah.

>> The will of the people times the strategy equals the outcome. Most

organizations spend a disproportionate amount of their time on strategy and execution instead of people, purpose, values, and

learning. But if you spend a good time

learning. But if you spend a good time on people, purpose, values, and learning, you raise the engagement of the people. So you have more people

the people. So you have more people enthusiastically, passionately getting up every day executing your strategic plan. Oh, duh. It is that freaking

plan. Oh, duh. It is that freaking simple Simon.

>> Okay, I'm going to I want to stay say it again because I think it's so clever, which is there's no such thing as a perfect strategic plan. And we obsess about the strategic plan. And I've

definitely been guilty of tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan. It's always getting better.

plan. It's always getting better.

>> And we forget that you can have an imperfect plan, which is fine, a 70% good plan. Yeah. Which is executable.

good plan. Yeah. Which is executable.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh it's a 70% good plan with 30% passion is a is a very different outcome than 80% passion. Absolutely.

80% passion. Absolutely.

>> Because at least there's consistency of the 70% plan done with done with uh uh uh uh uh purpose and and conscientiousness.

>> So good.

>> You know, I was talking to a CEO the other day and we were talking about the, you know, the reason why investing in building a great culture is so important. And I, you know, he was

important. And I, you know, he was going, "No, no, no, no, no." I said, "Look, I can call BS on that, >> right?" I said, 'I want you to go today

>> right?" I said, 'I want you to go today and I want you to tell everyone in your organization to stay home for a month and do nothing.

What do you think the outcome will be?

He said, 'We we we'll be destroyed. So I

said, "Why are you letting 70% of your people come to work every day and sit and quit? Because you've created this

and quit? Because you've created this stinky culture where they don't feel like they belong. They don't feel like they matter. They can't make choices.

they matter. They can't make choices.

And they have a whole bunch of fear instead of learning. And the people that are leading them are managers instead of coaches." You know, you walk into the

coaches." You know, you walk into the first day of your job, Simon. I come up, you say, "Good, good day, Simon. Welcome

to the company. I'm your manager. What

happens if you walk in and say, "Goodday, Simon. I'm your coach. I know

"Goodday, Simon. I'm your coach. I know

what it takes to win a game here. I'm

going to stand on the sideline and watch you play. I'm never going to run on the

you play. I'm never going to run on the field and take the ball from you. I'm

never going to go to the podium and take the prize away from you. And I'm going to spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room with you, Simon, because I only have one goal. To help you step into the best version, your personal

self, cuz I know I know you've got it in you, and I just want to see you win."

>> Oh my god. Where do I sign up?

>> Yeah. One of the things that WD40 does is when you get a promotion and I think throughout your tenure, but when you get a promotion to a managerial position,

you offer teaching to those people so they know how to coach because we don't expect people to know how to coach. And

it goes back to what we say before, which is we don't expect people to know how to lead. We don't teach them how to lead. And by changing the terminology, I

lead. And by changing the terminology, I think because most people would be insecure to say I don't know how to lead. Give me the job. But I think

lead. Give me the job. But I think people would be very comfortable saying, "No idea how to coach, but I'd love to learn." The language is a lower is a

learn." The language is a lower is a lower bar. And I and I it's a very

lower bar. And I and I it's a very clever thing. And so I know you teach

clever thing. And so I know you teach people how to coach.

>> Yeah. Well, we actually changed We took out the word manager.

>> So it doesn't exist in the company >> was coach. So if you if I had the privilege of leading you, I was your coach.

>> Yeah. And it's amazing once you change the description and can describe what the behavior should be.

>> Yeah.

>> So I would say you're a coach and here's what a coach is all about. What I just shared with you a few minutes ago, >> right?

>> And your job is to coach. And we used to mandate that at least every 90 days our coaches would sit down with those that have the privilege to lead and talk

about what's getting in your way, how are you, are you okay? you know, what is it that I need to do to help you succeed? How do you think you're

succeed? How do you think you're succeeding against our goals? You know,

the book I wrote with Ken Blanchard called Helping People Win at Work, the tie line was, "I'm not here to mark your paper. I'm here to help you get an A."

paper. I'm here to help you get an A."

>> So, our job as coaches was to define what an A looks like because that's very important. Most people let people down

important. Most people let people down because they don't clearly define if an A walked in the door today, what it would look like. M

>> after defining that my role as a coach is to help you get the >> A >> and that's what we used to sit down and talk about all the time. Unfortunately a

lot of people a lot of leaders and well managers protect their own comfort zone at the expense of other people's development.

>> That's where the bravery comes in and it normally happens because there's not clarity around what do we expect from each other. Can you tell me a story of

each other. Can you tell me a story of somebody who came to the company? They

heard the hype. They met the people. The

interviews, I'm sure, were quite different and quite wonderful. The

company liked them. They offered them a job. They liked the company. They said

job. They liked the company. They said

yes. Um, but they brought bad habits.

They once bitten twice shy. They'd

worked for some people who said all the right things. And in good times, they

right things. And in good times, they might have even done it. But as soon as a little stress was added to the system, you know, micromanagement showed up, regression showed up, you know, removing accountability showed up, removing

agency showed up. Somebody who's cynical who h how did you like how do you treat that person? Yeah. I mean, you know, one

that person? Yeah. I mean, you know, one of the things I used to do was about 90 days after someone joined the company, I'd go to them and say, "Did we lie to you

>> around, you know, what we promised?" And

in every circumstance they said it's better than you ever described it.

>> So you know we'd have people that would come in the company and they would go oh yeah sure but then it's up to us as leaders in the organization to help them understand what the key elements are of

success within the organization.

Interestingly enough if they didn't fall into line the tribe would vote them off the island.

>> It wouldn't have to be us you know and I have shared people with competitors.

There's no doubt about that. In the end, I want people to be happy in the organization. And if you're not happy,

organization. And if you're not happy, go somewhere else. You know, it's But the story that's really cool is when I talk about how in an organization you

can use your values to really help redirect people. And this

is a nearly true story. Names are

changed to protect the innocent. Sure.

We're in a meeting one morning of group of leaders and there's someone in the room that is sucking the energy out of the room. You've been in one of those

the room. You've been in one of those meetings right?

>> And our second value at the company was we value creating positive lasting memories in all of our relationships.

This person was not creating a positive lasting memory. So what do you do as the

lasting memory. So what do you do as the leader? Well, you could ignore the

leader? Well, you could ignore the behavior, which means the whole structure of the culture is going to collapse because everyone else in the room says, "Well, you may as well have that up on the wall, but you're never going to act on it, right?"

>> Mhm.

>> You can stop the meeting immediately and say, "Simon, that behavior is unacceptable." Everybody else in the

unacceptable." Everybody else in the room says, "When am I going to be publicly executed?"

publicly executed?" >> Mhm.

>> So, the meeting came to an end >> and you recall our new building in San Diego. I walked out of the room. I said,

Diego. I walked out of the room. I said,

I I'll use Simon as the example. Simon,

let's go for a walk. So, I walk out of the building and I look in a trash can, under a car, and behind a bush. And

Simon says, "What the hell are you doing?" I said, "Simon, the you I know

doing?" I said, "Simon, the you I know and love was not in that room today.

What's on your mind? What's getting in your way? How can I help you?"

your way? How can I help you?"

>> And Simon starts to talk. Well, I had a bad morning. I kicked my foot on the

bad morning. I kicked my foot on the bed. You know, I spilled coffee. someone

bed. You know, I spilled coffee. someone

flipped me off. So, it wasn't, but we were able to have that conversation. I

said, "Well, Simon, you live our value of creating positive, lasting memories every day, and today was just one of those learning moments for you. So, I

wanted to make sure you were aware of that." He said, "Geez, I'm sorry, Gary.

that." He said, "Geez, I'm sorry, Gary.

We had a hug." He goes back into the office, visits a few people, and says, "Hey, you know, that wasn't me." They

said, "Are you okay?

>> What's getting in your way? What's on

your mind?" The next morning, I notice people going to him and say, "Is everything okay today?"

That's the thing about when you have a clear set of values and you live them where you can show people that it's not about, you know, you're not performing

but what's going inside you. And I love the story you tell about the sales guy, right? The guy's not getting his sales

right? The guy's not getting his sales three months in a row and instead of going in and, you know, reefing out of himself, you say, "What's what's what's

up? Is it are you okay?" you know, and

up? Is it are you okay?" you know, and and I think that's that's what's really important. Showing people true concern

important. Showing people true concern about wanting to live who you are is so important. Have you noticed a difference

important. Have you noticed a difference in in the younger generation of employees who came into WD40? I mean,

because every generation brings both the advantages and baggage of their generation, right? Not better or worse,

generation, right? Not better or worse, just different. our movement if we can

just different. our movement if we can uh we are part of the same movement even if companies don't believe in it and even if they don't follow it they're all forced to have purpose statements on their website which I see as a win at least socially they have to keep up

appearances for this thing that they don't believe it right >> um things like boundaries things like mental health these are kind of expected from this younger generation of the

places they come to work can you talk about how both the successes and the challenges you had of a younger generation coming into into your culture.

>> I think the older generation are the worst ones.

>> Yeah.

>> Because the younger ones coming in are aligned with what you and I believe in.

Right. And I haven't met >> Well, we've built our movement railing against the boo.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But I I haven't met a a a person, young, old, or even my dog.

>> Yeah.

>> Who doesn't benefit by knowing they belong.

>> Yeah.

>> And they matter.

>> So, and they want to learn. So you

ready to go there and they matter. They have a cynicism too, right? Remember they grew up they grew up in a world where their parents were laid off. It's not a

meritocracy. And so there's a reason

meritocracy. And so there's a reason why, you know, when you and I were young, uh, we believe that you work hard, you do the extra work, then you go to your boss and say, "Look at all what I've done. Give me the raise." And the

I've done. Give me the raise." And the younger generation says, "Give me the raise."

raise." and that could be interpreted as entitlement. I understand it as they

entitlement. I understand it as they grew up in a world where there's no loyalty from the company. So get your money while you can because you may not last, right? I understand where it comes

last, right? I understand where it comes from. But at the end of the day, when

from. But at the end of the day, when you and I, you know, when somebody comes to us and says, you know, give me the money and you see what I'm going to do, and we're going, well, why don't you do the work and I'll be happy to take care

of you. like just talk to me how the

of you. like just talk to me how the very practical ways in which a a a culture like WD40 adapts for a very different perspective from from from different people.

>> So here's one example. You know once upon a time you had these annual reviews, right? Where you actually

reviews, right? Where you actually looking backwards.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, maybe now the way to go is having steps along the way so you can recognize performance. So the younger people

performance. So the younger people instead of saying work here for 12 months and become a a senior something or a new role in the position you have steps along the way that says okay 3

months in now I'm going to give you this responsibility and we'll give you this.

So it's encouraging them to think the way that you and I are talking about which is you are going to be rewarded.

You're not going to be forgotten. And I

think a lot of cases that old, you know, annual review system was really working negative because I don't want to wait 364 days for you to tell me what I should have done better or how good I've done.

>> Yeah.

>> What I want to do is be coached along the way. So I think that was a typical

the way. So I think that was a typical example. But it goes back to that one

example. But it goes back to that one thing I said earlier, Simon, that >> I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them they belong.

>> Yeah. I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them you're going to help them learn >> or that you they actually matter in the organization. It it's it's just

organization. It it's it's just fundamental, >> you know, and I've always hated the the annual review because having done them and having been on the receiving end of them, you can only remember the past

couple months anyway. So, if somebody's been a complete, you know, yeah, screw up for the past two months, but they've had, you know, sort of 10 months of magic, the 10 months are completely forgotten, >> gone. Uh or or conversely, 10 months of

>> gone. Uh or or conversely, 10 months of complete screw-up in the last two months, you' be like, "You're amazing."

Exactly. I've had that, too.

>> Yeah, you're right. And you know, you're challenging me. Here's my very real

challenging me. Here's my very real struggle. You know, we have a small

struggle. You know, we have a small company. Um I agree with everything

company. Um I agree with everything you've said. I don't do everything you

you've said. I don't do everything you say. And uh you know, I I know that I

say. And uh you know, I I know that I can do better even using the language.

We don't call our people coaches. I'm

thinking maybe we should. You know, we don't use the term tribe. I'm thinking

maybe we should. the annual reviews, we do do them even though we're not a fan of them. Uh, and the the the idea of

of them. Uh, and the the the idea of planning towards the future. We're

getting better at helping people understand what an A looks like. You're

challenging me to to do the things that I know are important. Um, here's where I feel a very real strain, which is just time, which is energy, which is I feel pulled in every different direction. I

can't do it all. How do I how do I get all these things accomplished? How do I build this new plan to move forwards?

How do I help all my people? How uh uh learn to coach somebody to get to an A?

How do I define what the A is? I'm a

little overwhelmed, right?

>> I want to do it all and I'm a little overwhelmed.

>> Well, imagine how efficient and how better the organization would be if you did it all.

>> No, I get all that, you know? I mean,

like, imagine how how much healthier I would be if I worked out every day and only ate celery. Like, yeah, sure. Yeah.

No, I know all that. I know all that.

Unfortunately, you know, focusing on the urgent at the expense of the important is part of the is part of the challenge of any leadership position.

>> You're right. This is not easy, man.

>> And so I just I want to know from your very real experience. I guess I'm answering my own question, which is you don't do it all at once. You pick one, you do that, you ask for help, >> right?

>> You know, and you do the next one.

>> Yeah. This took 25 years, you know.

Well, it took about five years to gain momentum when I first started to implement a lot of this stuff.

>> Right. 5 years to gain momentum which means it wasn't even fully implemented or completed. It was momentum

or completed. It was momentum >> right >> and then it becomes >> so I have to give myself some grace that this is an ongoing process and it's not a finite game >> you know it's not fairy dust >> yeah you know it takes work

>> you know fundamental foundations here they were >> clearly defined purpose have we got it >> set of values do we have them >> are they hierarchial

>> right are they clearly defined yes okay now what's next >> let's get rid of the word manager and put the word coach Yeah, >> great. And then let's take fear out of

>> great. And then let's take fear out of the organization, which was an amazing thing we did where we said we do not make mistakes. We have learning moments.

make mistakes. We have learning moments.

And what's the definition of a learning moment? A positive or negative outcome

moment? A positive or negative outcome of any situation that needs to be openly and freely shared to benefit all people.

Now, when I implemented the learning moment, here's a true story. So, I'm

couple of years in now >> as the CEO, drunk the Kool-Aid at Ken Blanchard. I said, "We're going to

Blanchard. I said, "We're going to reduce fear. We're going to have

reduce fear. We're going to have learning moments now." So, what I want you to do is I want you to email me uh and tell me a negative or a positive learning moment that you've had in the organization. And by the way, we're

organization. And by the way, we're going to have a contest and we're going to have winners every month. And at the end of the contest, we're going to send someone around the world first class to do something.

>> Yeah.

>> The first month, I got three.

>> So, what did I do? I made heroes out of these three people who were brave enough to share a negative learning moment.

They were going to be stars in my view.

The next month they get six.

>> What did I do? I made heroes of them.

The next month I got 24. And then by the end of the the program I'm getting hundreds. But it takes time to build a

hundreds. But it takes time to build a lack of fear in the organization that you know sure you I'm going to tell you what failed and you're not going to come down on me or you're not going to

embarrass me. No, we're going to use it.

embarrass me. No, we're going to use it.

So, you know, I say, imagine a place where you go to work every day. You make

a contribution to something bigger than yourself. You learn something new.

yourself. You learn something new.

>> You're protected and set free by a compelling set of values. And you go home happy.

>> Happy people build happy families. Happy

families build happy communities. Happy

communities build a happy world. We need

a happy world. And it's, as you said, Simon, you know, who wants to go to work when dad and mom come home and sit around the dinner table and about how badly they've been treated. No one

of these young kids are running away and say, "I don't want to ever do that."

>> But what happens if they go home happy and say, "You know, I had the best day today. I learned this. I was respected.

today. I learned this. I was respected.

You know, I was treated fairly." Now,

I've had crucial conversations. I've had

redirection conversations. I've had

opportunities where I've had to let people move on to something. But through

that whole 25 years, Simon, we never laid a person off ever >> through any upturn, downturn, whatever, because we said we were there together to do what we needed to do together. But

there were some people that didn't fit the company. Okay, go be happy somewhere

the company. Okay, go be happy somewhere else. I want you to leave with respect

else. I want you to leave with respect and dignity, >> and I want you to go and find a place to be. If this is not for you, that's okay.

be. If this is not for you, that's okay.

>> Mhm. Um, so you know, I think it's again values plus behavior times consistency.

>> I like the addition. I got that from the Marine Corps.

>> I know. I I quoted it in my >> culture equals values plus behavior, but I I like the addition. Cultures equals

values plus behavior time consistency. I

think that's 100% true. It's not a one and done the annual offsite. Here are

our values. Here the what we expect and you're done. It's,

you're done. It's, >> you know, a lot of people think this is the soft stuff and it's not. This is

hard >> because if it was easy, >> we'd all be doing it. we wouldn't have 70% of people going to work every day disengaged or actively disengaged.

>> Yeah. I I I I heard a statistic. I'll

get the numbers wrong, but you'll get it.

>> Um which was um something like people come to work and there's something like 70% are disengaged in their work. I mean some some extraordinarily high high number of disengagement in in American companies.

>> If somebody gets yelled at, the disengagement number goes down to like 30%.

I know. And if somebody is given one compliment about, you know, one skill or one talent, the disengagement number plummets to like 5% or whatever it is, right? But what it shows is is that when

right? But what it shows is is that when I get yelled at, at least you know I exist.

>> I get it. At least you know because everybody goes, "What?

>> Getting yelled at actually is better than ignoring somebody, >> right? or just letting them get on with

>> right? or just letting them get on with their work because at least you care that I'm alive and that I show up for work, you know, I'm a person. You know

my name, right? But I found that astonishing.

>> I know.

>> And how the and the numbers and again I'm getting the exact numbers wrong, but the the differentials are basically the same which is it plummets. And we're not talking about like coaching programs and

you know growth programs and finding one compliment >> of one skill or one gift makes somebody engaged and they're like h this place is wonderful. I matter. I matter. I matter.

wonderful. I matter. I matter. I matter.

It's simple. And it's such a simple thing. Look, you know, I don't I refuse

thing. Look, you know, I don't I refuse to use the term soft skills, as you know. It's human skills, right? And we

know. It's human skills, right? And we

want people to learn the hard skills and the human skills to be effective at work.

>> Um, hard skills, the skills you need to do your job. Human skills, the skills you need to be a better human being. And

WD40 is one of the best examples in corporate America as far as I'm concerned. And the fact that you are

concerned. And the fact that you are public, I think makes it even better, right? Because people poo poo it when

right? Because people poo poo it when you're not, you know, >> right? and that you had the courage to

>> right? and that you had the courage to understand that you were public and that you had a responsibility to the shareholders but not the only responsibility to the shareholders and that you were playing the long game. I

had a goal. I want to build an enduring company that I would be proud to pass on to others.

>> Yeah.

>> And and I think we kind of nearly got that and you know I was very aware of the shareholder needs and it's interesting when I first started >> but third not first.

>> Right. Oh, employee customer >> A plus B equals C, right? They they're

C. But I remember when I first started going to Wall Street, I'd take my investor relations deck and the first five pages were always about culture.

And I could see the analysts sitting across from me, their eyes are rolling, kind of saying to me, get get over that.

Let's get to the numbers.

>> Yeah.

>> It was very interesting in probably my last five years how engaged now they were becoming in a a strong culture. In

fact, we had one shareholder that took a huge stake in the company and I asked why. They said it's the culture.

why. They said it's the culture.

>> Yeah.

>> And they never talked to me about quartertoquarter earnings. They said,

quartertoquarter earnings. They said, "Okay, you've got to meet your goals over time," which we did.

>> But, you know, one of my shareholders I said to I said to them once, "I'm not smart enough to run a company in 90-day intervals." And this guy said, "I'm glad

intervals." And this guy said, "I'm glad you're not dumb enough to try." Yeah.

Well, I am the dean of damascery as you know, but you know, it's like >> that wasn't what it's all about. We're

going to play the long game.

>> And there's another thing that I found really interesting as we went through co, you know, it was in my last two years of being CEO. So, it was an interesting time,

>> but we got into CO and we just done our employee opinion survey feedback and we had 93% employee engagement. 98% of

people said they love to work at the company. 97% said they respected their

company. 97% said they respected their their coach who was their boss. So we

get to January 2021, Simon, and you remember that time >> the world was still topsyturvy. There

was no sign of, you know, a real vaccination. We were working hard to

vaccination. We were working hard to keep the tribe together. And I said to the folks, we need to go out and do a a pulse test, just see if we're still holding up. So we went out and did a

holding up. So we went out and did a pulse test. And the numbers came back

pulse test. And the numbers came back and they were all pretty similar except for one that went up. And the one that went up was the answer to the question,

I'm excited about my place in the company's future. Now, this is January

company's future. Now, this is January 2021.

>> Wow.

>> And I said, there's something wrong with that data.

>> Yeah.

>> It can't be right. Go check it.

>> Yeah.

>> They went out and checked it. It was

right.

>> I said, how can anybody be excited about their place in the company future when we don't know what the world's going to be like? Yeah.

be like? Yeah.

>> Go find out. We went and found out.

>> Yeah.

>> You know what they said? I feel safe.

That's what the tribe said. If I need to be >> They were watching their friends getting laid off.

>> They said, "I feel safe. If I need to be anywhere right now, I need to be here."

Simon, I got goosebumps then. I got

goosebumps now when I think about it. I

said to our leadership team, >> we did it.

>> If during this time people can say that, you know what? This is the place we think it is. One of the proudest moments of my life.

>> Say again the purpose of the company.

>> Our purpose is to create positive lasting memories solving problems in factories, homes, and workshops around the world. We solve problems and we

the world. We solve problems and we create opportunities. I love that. It's

create opportunities. I love that. It's

beautiful. The other part which I also love, which is the the opening part, which is to to make moments that matter.

And I think what's really important is I don't think people could argue it's not a product-based purpose. No. You know,

and I think when companies think about purpose, they default to the to the product. Yes. You know, WD40 is a

product. Yes. You know, WD40 is a lubricant that makes stops.

>> It doesn't it stops squeaks. It doesn't

it makes things move smoothly. It

doesn't create moments that matter >> at all. Right? Memories that matter is just not what WD40 is doing. It is a statement of the kind of company you want to build.

>> Right.

>> And the attention that people put into the product, the marketing, the sales, the, you know, comes out of it. Right.

And they, as you said, 80% of the people are following, you know, a 70% good strategy. In your case, 90 something%

strategy. In your case, 90 something% are following 70% good strategy. And I

think that's really important. I And

it's something that even in my work, I always struggle, which is people like, "We believe in your work. We believe in your work." And they show me a beautiful

your work." And they show me a beautiful purpose statement that's really about the product, >> right?

>> And which is again, not to sound like I'm, you know, cowtowing here, one of the reasons I love your company as an example is it's not glamorous. Because

very often when there's a glamorous tech product, you know, an AI product for example, and we come up with a purpose statement, it sounds glamorous because the product is glamorous.

>> Sure.

>> And so if you can take a non-glamorous product with what used to be a dumpy office, you know, uh, and public all the things that shouldn't work according to,

you know, modern conventional wisdom.

>> And it not only works, it works better than most companies.

>> You know, your your success is is better than most.

>> Yes. But I think one of the reasons you converted so many analysts is at some point you can't help it and it's partially because you're such a great preacher for the movement. At some point they can't help but listen to you and

relate to their own jobs which is I would like to work in a place like WD40 my investment bank treats me like dirt.

I want this. And at some point >> Yes.

>> the the hardest of asses of analysts at some point has to say I want that.

>> Yes. Then that happened a couple times.

>> That has to be that that has to be the the reason. Yeah. I mean, why not? I

the reason. Yeah. I mean, why not? I

mean, >> so you're not preaching this is the right way to do it. This is the right way to do it. You're saying this is how my people feel when they come to work.

Dot dot dot. Wouldn't you like to feel that way?

>> Exactly. Exactly. Wouldn't you like to go home happy? And that's the other thing, you know, now, you know, I I just spent 25 my 25 year apprenticeship in leadership. Now I'm putting it to work

leadership. Now I'm putting it to work because I believe that business not only has a responsibility but an opportunity to make a positive difference in the world. Amen.

world. Amen.

>> And I get so frustrated around this and that's why I do what I do now is I can call BS not because I'm a smart guy. You

know, that's why the title of my book is the title of my book. But it's because I believe that if you understand fundamentally >> the the foundation that you need to put

in and you take Simon Synynic's advice, culture equals values plus behavior and add a little consistency and you do it, >> you can build a place where people go to work and go home happy and you will

build a better world.

>> And we need it. We need it so much now.

You know, I I watch people get destroyed working in crappy cultures and it's not fair. It's not fair. So, you can have a

fair. It's not fair. So, you can have a great culture and you can have a great company and you can feel good about it and you can send your people home happy.

>> You and I both believe that loving work is a right and not a privilege.

>> You know that you go out with your friends and somebody says, "I love my job." And everybody else goes, "Oh,

job." And everybody else goes, "Oh, you're so lucky." As if they won a lottery. You know, you and I both

lottery. You know, you and I both believe that the the people who don't like going to work should be the exception rather than the rule. And it

is something entitled to every single person who chooses to work for another for every employee on the planet. They

have the right, not the privilege. Yeah.

>> To enjoy going to work. Doesn't mean

every day is easy. No.

>> Doesn't mean every day is fun. No.

>> You know, I I like to equate it to the difference between, you know, liking your children and loving your children.

You love your children every single day of your life. You don't like your children every day.

>> And it's the same. You don't have to like every day at work.

>> Yes.

>> But you do get to love every day at work.

>> Yeah. And you know, I I had bad days.

>> Yeah. Of course we all do.

>> We all do.

>> Days I do not want to come to work and I hate everybody around me.

>> Well, yeah. And I don't know if I got that far, but but you know, I it's this is I don't want people to think that this was a bit of, you know, sweet roses. We went through some tough times.

roses. We went through some tough times.

You know, we went through the the great recession had we went through managing through COVID. We went through oil going

through COVID. We went through oil going from $25 a barrel to $125 a barrel. We

went through upheavalss in a we had all that. But all along the way,

that. But all along the way, >> yeah, >> we kept our focus. We kept our values.

>> The one thing that was consistent >> and our purpose >> was was the internal because you the external >> you can't control. You can very often you can only react. But the one thing

that has the consistency, as you said, you you can't have consistent numbers because you're not in total control of the numbers. If the raw materials

the numbers. If the raw materials skyrocket, it's going to affect your numbers. If there's a competitive threat

numbers. If there's a competitive threat and they're doing a good job in their marketing or having some promotion or it's going to affect your numbers. Like

we don't actually have total control of the numbers. And I think it's funny when

the numbers. And I think it's funny when companies say, "We will hit this number on this date at this time." I'm like, "How >> how, you know, >> there's got to be some fiddly word going on there."

on there." >> It's actually impossible. But the one thing that we can control every single day is the internal because that is actually under our control.

>> Yeah.

>> I learn from you every time I talk to you. I am so grateful you came in. This

you. I am so grateful you came in. This

was like >> this is therapy.

>> Well, you know, >> you don't know how much I owe you because I've learned so much from you over time. And

over time. And >> that's I really appreciate it. And

>> that's humbling.

>> You know, it's great that you're out out there doing what you do cuz we we need it, Simon. We really do. You and I both

it, Simon. We really do. You and I both believe in world peace, you know, and it sounds corny to say, and world peace is very simple, which is if if people enjoy

going to work, they're happier people.

And happier people come home happier >> and they treat their kids better and they treat their spouse better.

>> And when the kids feel good because mom or dad are happy and the spouse feels good because husband or wife is happy, they'll treat their friends and their colleagues and their neighbors better.

Yeah. And then those people like, "Oh, how nice that they treated me better.

I'm going to treat people better." And

before you know it, the ripples spread in your voice.

>> Absolutely.

>> It's duh, you know, >> and that's actually how human nature works. You know, we actually are

works. You know, we actually are influenced by by others. You know, if somebody yells at you or flips you off, you we've all had it. Somebody cuts you off and flips you off in the car, you are pissed off for the next 20 minutes

talking about them. You get out of the car and you start talking about the person who cut you off and flipped you off. Like, it does carry. You know, it's

off. Like, it does carry. You know, it's amazing how many nice rooms I've got at a Marriott hotel when I've walked in at 11:00 at night and said to the person

behind the reception, "I am so grateful you're here tonight. Thank you for waiting for me."

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, by the way, Mr. Ridge, we have you an upgrade tonight.

>> Here's your free upgrade.

>> Exactly.

>> But, you know, but but sincerely, I'm happy they're there.

>> No, no. You know, we we've dragged our butt across some nation and been on planes and whatever, >> and you see people treating people badly, and you wonder why they are getting treated badly.

>> Yeah.

>> Duh.

>> And if a company wants to put pressure on employees to hit certain numbers, I mean, sure, you can create some sort of incentive structure that's based solely on numbers. And guess what? People focus

on numbers. And guess what? People focus

on the short-term personal gain that you've incentivized.

>> And they'll do whatever they need to do to get it. And that usually means stepping on people, kicking people, get out of the way. sometimes unethical and most extremely legal. Yeah.

>> Um and we see it all the time. And you

show me any company that's acted very unethically and and has exhibited ethical fading.

>> Almost every single time I will show you a company with a broken culture and a misaligned incentive structure. Almost

every time. The other thing that's really interesting in the work that I'm doing now, when I look at compensation costs, >> Yeah.

>> compensation costs are always higher in organizations with crappy cultures >> because you can pay anybody to stay anywhere and be treated badly.

>> It's true. Everybody's got a price.

>> Everybody's got a price.

>> But if you want to have a compensation structure that allows you to keep people in your organization in good and bad times,

>> culture plays hugely into it. hugely

>> even the most cynical should say you know maybe I should invest in this for totally selfish reasons that you know it'll help me weather difficult storms >> well unless you believe >> and then but then then I think then you learn because you start to see it and

enjoy it right >> you know I've seen that happen too which is people like gh I guess I'll do this and they they become converted just like you converted those analysts right >> you know it's >> this is David Marqu's work which is

>> oh yeah turn the boat around >> turn the ship around which is he he he talks about you know >> we get it wrong and how we change behavior We think we have to explain to people why it matters and hope that their behavior changes, you know. So, f

first they have to get it, then they'll change their behavior. And what he learned is you force the change in behavior. And then people get it.

behavior. And then people get it.

>> And then people go, oh, which is kind of what you did at WD40, which is like, let's all be coaches. Congratulations. I

know you don't care, but I'm going to teach you how to be a coach, and I'm going to force you to be a coach, and I'm going to incentivize you to be a coach.

>> And now I like being >> And now I like being a coach, and I'm not going to convince you the importance of being a coach, and then hopefully you'll sign up for the for the learning.

Well, it then goes back to 97% of the people respect their coach. Now, that

that was the word in the survey. If you

were to change that question or would be, do you respect your manager?

>> Yeah.

>> And I would suggest you would get 10% of people who would say they do.

>> Yeah.

>> But because they're acting as a coach, >> yeah, >> you know, most people leave jobs because they hate their boss.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, because the boss is being >> a boss.

>> A boss. He's being a soul sucking leader unfortunately.

>> Yeah. Bob Chapman talks about this, our mutual friend Bob Chapman from Barry Waym Miller, he talks about this, which is nobody comes to work to be managed.

Nobody wants to be managed, but we all want to be led.

>> Yeah.

>> You know.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and and we would all want to be coached too.

>> I love what he says. Anybody who comes to work every day is someone's precious husband, wife, sister, or brother, you know, >> and that's so true.

>> And I think it's worth pointing out all of these leaders that I get to write about and some of them I get to meet, >> you know, um they weren't always this way.

>> I wasn't.

>> Bob wasn't. He ran it by the by the books. He was he's a trained accountant.

books. He was he's a trained accountant.

>> People were line items on a spreadsheet.

>> Do your job, you get to stay on the spreadsheet. Don't do your job, you get

spreadsheet. Don't do your job, you get to leave the spreadsheet. I mean, that was >> Yeah.

>> And he had a he had an epiphany. Had a

conversion.

>> Um >> it was the same. Be brief, be bright, be gone.

>> Yeah.

>> And that wasn't going to work.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, when I did my disc profile, I hated what I was told I was. So, I had to move from a turbo D to an I, which was, you know, I relationships really matter. And it took me time.

matter. And it took me time.

>> Yeah. It took me time to really get comfortable with it.

>> And I think that goes right back to where we started, which is if you want to be the leader you wish you had, you actually start with you.

>> Yeah. It all starts with you.

>> It all starts with you. Gary, I love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming in. Such a treat. Um, these are

coming in. Such a treat. Um, these are always frustrating conversations with me because I'd like to go for another four hours. Um, but this is the best. Thank

hours. Um, but this is the best. Thank

you.

>> Thank you, Simon. It's been a great pleasure.

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