The Hidden Crisis Behind Bitcoin’s Latest Crash | David Bailey

Digital asset treasury companies were all the rage in the first half of the year and into the summer before we saw a massive collapse across the space, leaving many wondering what comes next.

I spoke to David Bailey, the CEO of Kindly MD, also known as Nakamoto, about lessons that he learned from building a digital asset treasury company. Wall

Street does not give an F about anything but making money. And they will smile and shake your hand and tell you whatever you want to hear as they slit your throat. why he's focused on

your throat. why he's focused on Bitcoin.

>> I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, this phenomenon is really about corporate entities buying Bitcoin. And

we're just at the beginning stages of that and eventually every company will own Bitcoin >> and what the future looks like for these companies. Spoiler, everybody still

companies. Spoiler, everybody still agrees that Bitcoin is going way higher and Bitcoin treasury companies will follow.

That's dope.

>> Let's do >> I think the best place to start obviously is just to lay the groundwork for where the treasury company market stands right now. Obviously, we had like

I think we could argue like a hype cycle and then sort of this temporary bust and now I think like any cycle we've seen like that we probably see a few phoenixes rise from the ashes and see

what the space is really about. So maybe

you can just sort of set the table.

Obviously we had strategy for years and Nakamoto and 21 sort of came in at the first half of the year. A lot of copycats and here we are.

>> Yeah. And even before Nakamoto there was MetaPlanet. Um there there was quite a

MetaPlanet. Um there there was quite a few similar. So yeah, I mean I I I

few similar. So yeah, I mean I I I really don't think um uh like this is a a fad or a flash in the pan. Like we had a lot of deals come to market all at the

same time. There was a massive glut of

same time. There was a massive glut of supply and you know not all these deals are created equal. So I I think you know uh it's going to take us a little while

to like work through um kind of all the supply that's hitting the market. like

we're really just seeing the supply hit the market too, which is the one kind of negative thing. It's like we were the

negative thing. It's like we were the really the first to unlock and then strive behind us and then there's more that unlock this month in December. And

so, you know, um that'll take a little while to work through, but then once we work through it, I think you're going to see consolidation. Um you're going to

see consolidation. Um you're going to see like less players. You're going to see some of the, you know, as the market was getting hot, the deals that were coming to market were getting of lower and lower quality. And so I think, you

know, you'll you'll wash out some of the people that were just in search of fast money. Um, and so yeah, I think this

money. Um, and so yeah, I think this will be in a much healthier place by next year. And I mean, ultimately, at

next year. And I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, this phenomenon is really about corporate entities buying Bitcoin. And we're just at the beginning

Bitcoin. And we're just at the beginning stages of that. And eventually, every company will own Bitcoin. So yeah,

that's my my general view.

>> Yeah. So, I mean, talking about the ones that were sort of a flash in the pan.

The ones, as I kind of mentioned, were copycats. Came in later, didn't really

copycats. Came in later, didn't really have a plan, money grab, however you want to describe it, you kind of talked about them getting washed out. What does

that look like? Is that acquisitions by better capitalized and stronger players?

I mean, they don't disappear. They they

own Bitcoin. Yeah. I well so you know first off like the people that were the fast money you know in order to raise those incremental dollars after the market was already starting to get exhausted they had to agree to more and

more aggressive terms and I've seen some some of these financings where I'm like I can't even believe it's legal like what went down I mean you have companies that are taking what I would call toxic

toxic debt um that is like very overleveraged dangerous debt and then you know uh uh uh using that that debt

to go buy you know shitcoin xyz and you know that's that is questionable whether that will even be around in you know five years time. Um

uh and then you know doing these management agreements with funds where like the treasury is actually managed by someone else and they're paying two 3% a year and they're locked into a 10 or 20 year deal. It's like okay well

year deal. It's like okay well automatically 50% of all the assets are going to be taken out of this just by the asset manager. So, you know, that those were just garbage transactions and the people that were investing into them

never really intended to sit in the investments. Um, and you know, the the I

investments. Um, and you know, the the I think the market's going to wise up to that to that activity. And I think, you know, th those teams that are running those, they have a very limited set of

options about where to go next. Like

there's a playbook for treasury companies. Um, you know, a key part of

companies. Um, you know, a key part of the the the playbook is like, okay, if you're buying Bitcoin, then even when market conditions deteriorate, as long as you just sit on the Bitcoin long enough, market conditions improve and

you're able to get access to the capital markets again. Um, if you're sitting in

markets again. Um, if you're sitting in an asset that's not Bitcoin, you may never have a second chance at getting access back to the capital markets.

Like, your balance sheet's not guaranteed to improve in in the future.

And so, you know, a company like that, like what do they do? they they they are burning money at the the the uh top line like with the the management company, you know, maybe they're in like really

aggressive, expensive um financing terms. Um you know, they're in an asset that, you know, isn't guaranteed to come back, like where do they go from there?

And so I think that those companies, the ones that actually have assets that can be liquidated, and some of these treasury companies actually have assets that can't be liquidated, like the treasury's locked assets, like locked tokens or

>> Yeah. because they're doing OTC deals

>> Yeah. because they're doing OTC deals with vesting 15 or 20% discount, right?

>> But but if there's a liquid value to it, um then someone's willing to pay some discount to that liquid value and then convert the assets into something that is valuable. And then I think the other

is valuable. And then I think the other So like you're going to have like >> So so quickly that means we could have altcoin treasury companies that effectively sell the altcoins at a discount, buy Bitcoin, and become

Bitcoin treasury companies.

>> Yeah. or you have a a Bitcoin treasury company buy an altcoin >> buys them at a huge discount and converts to Bitcoin, right? Okay. Yeah.

So I think like uh so like I think the ways that you're going to like you're going to see the consolidation one is like by balance sheet quality two is like management teams and who who have

quality management teams um and three is like are the businesses uh um operating companies with you know financial sust sustainability like do they have an

operating business that generates income for example and so I think like those are the three things that people are going to be looking for and I think the wave of consolidation is really going to kick off next year. So, just that's my

general view on it. And I know there's a lot of um let's say uh exploratory stuff that's already happening in the market behind the scenes on on consolidation,

but it takes time to do transactions.

Like that's one of the things I've learned about this whole from this whole process is like the public markets are intentionally slow. And so like for

intentionally slow. And so like for those types of deals to happen like they they don't happen in a month, they happen in you know six months.

Yeah, that that makes sense. So,

obviously, everybody who is involved in a Bitcoin treasury company believes that Bitcoin will trade higher than it does right now. I think that's a given. How

right now. I think that's a given. How

long can they wait if they're burning through management fees or any of these other expenses that you're talking about for Bitcoin to come back? Like, if

Bitcoin comes back and this is a normal, you know, 30% market correction and we're at alltime highs in six months, nobody's worried. But what if, you know,

nobody's worried. But what if, you know, it's a three-year correction down to 30, 40, $50,000 and it takes, you know, that long to return to these prices or

higher.

>> Yeah. I think each business is is unique from that perspective. You have to kind of make that assessment yourself. And I

and you know, as an investor, that's where the opportunity arises. You know,

I I don't think there's just a one rule.

you know, there are some great treasury companies out there, but if you drill into the actual operating business that they sit on top of, um, they're hemorrhaging a lot of money. And so, you

know, a four-year time horizon, if you're paying out on preferred that you issued that were expensive and you have like a, you know, major loss making operating company, then, you know, it's

going to be it's going to be scarier.

Um, you know, like for us, I think our annual operating cost, you know, we're probably low single-digit percentages per year of

operating expense. Um, and you know, our

operating expense. Um, and you know, our our goal, we haven't done anything definitive yet, but our goal is to uh find and acquire companies that are cash flow positive and generate income. So, I

think like >> income's going to be a major part of the story going forward. that

>> um but you know at the end of the day like these these entities are are like in my opinion the next generation banks um you know banks are in the business of monetizing their balance sheet like

these are bitcoin banks they're monetizing a bitcoin balance sheet and once you start seeing people monetize it well um you're going to see a lot of people copying that strategy and that

will just become the dominant a dominant strategy so yeah I think like when we start going through this consolidation period you're also going to see like an evolution of of the business model in general general from just like running

an ATM which there's no moat around running an ATM um to like actually uh creating value that's differentiated and unique.

>> Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I was

skeptical of the treasury model at the very beginning like pretty pretty outspokenly. I don't really really hide

outspokenly. I don't really really hide that. I just thought there were too many

that. I just thought there were too many coming too fast and I didn't really understand how without taking on risk or leverage most of them would make money at least to be competitive. So I think

my concern was that what you described would happen which is that they would do worse and worse deals and take on more toxic debt and offer higher yields. So

that's somewhat played out. So, how do they now if you're sitting on those and you have a plan to go not for you specifically, but you have to imagine that all the plans are derailed. We were

going to acquire more companies or we bought all the Bitcoin we could buy at 120K now it's at 85. Like is there is can they you know do share buybacks?

what are the structural ways and I know it's going to be different for every single one so I'm speaking generally like what are the structural ways that they can even buy the dip right because anyone if you're a average retail investor right now you're and you

believe Bitcoin is going to go up you're super excited I'm super excited like I've been buying the hell out of Bitcoin in the 80s 90s even above 100 right so but if you're a company and you spent it

all what do you do like you know how your plans have obviously most people planned on Bitcoin being at 150 right now >> well I mean actually the scenario you're laying out it matches it matches what we're going through. Well, um, you know,

we've, and none of this is material because it it hasn't happened, so I can talk about it, but I mean, we've had, um, two merger attempts where we've tried to

acquire other companies that, um, have fallen apart because the volatility in the market, the volatility in our stock, like, it's incredibly hard to price a transaction where you're doing an all

stock M&A deal and your stock is going up and down 60 70%. like it's uh it's difficult. So I think you know one thing

difficult. So I think you know one thing one thing that that treasury companies need what what we want is like you want some stability in the business like it doesn't have to be stability like you

know you become a boring business but just like hey we need we need the stock to you know operate within some band of reasonleness so that we can >> chill for five minutes

transaction and and lock in on economics. So, um I do think that's

economics. So, um I do think that's caused a little bit of a freezing effect on deals. And like from from my

on deals. And like from from my perspective as just an operator, if someone came to me and was like, "Hey, I'm interested in talking about an acquisition deal."

acquisition deal." Like, I'm not wanting to do a transaction with someone who they did a pipe and their pipe hasn't hit the market yet and so we don't really know

what the real value of their company is.

Like, how do we even have a good faith discussion? because I'm not going to

discussion? because I'm not going to sign my in I already went through that painful process or I'm still going through it but I mean we've made a lot of progress. I you know I don't want to

of progress. I you know I don't want to go through it again um you know dealing with someone else's pipe. So it's it's hard to make deals happen in that environment. Um and then for us like you

environment. Um and then for us like you know we deployed our capital our our like ethos in terms of how we deploy capital is like we're not in the business of sitting on cash. Like our

business >> you're not traders. You're not trying to you're not trying to Yeah. sit in cash.

Bitcoin accumulators like that's what we're doing. So it's like okay well how

we're doing. So it's like okay well how do you accumulate Bitcoin if you're trading at a discount to NAV um without just levering up the business into into an unhealthy territory. So for us that's

why our our our focus has shifted to income like how do we just generate income and you know I do think that you know and there's a lot of things like that I'm saying that I think maybe you

know Michael Sailor would disagree with me on just because like Michael's model not only does he he have a lot of things that are unique about his business but

he has a very scalable approach and so the things that maybe an operator like me at Nakamoto would do are not interesting to him because the scale of it is not big enough to be meaningful

for him and it's a lot of head bashing and work to just like barely move the needle. I mean his one week of the ATM

needle. I mean his one week of the ATM exceeds like the total value of a large M&A transaction for us. So um uh but like the the the point being is like

you're sitting on an asset that has is liquid that has a cash value. So just

imagine if you were a spa sitting on a ton of cash. Okay, well what does a spack do? They go identify targets to go

spack do? They go identify targets to go and acquire. you can spend the Bitcoin

and acquire. you can spend the Bitcoin to acquire a business that generates income if you can make an assessment of the durability of the the income stream.

Um maybe it's correlation to the Bitcoin price and saying like hey over the next 5 years or 10 years we're going to recover the the purchase cost of this

asset um uh using you know the Bitcoin we spent. I think that's a completely

we spent. I think that's a completely appropriate thing to do. And if you were acquiring a business that let's say generated fees on asset management or custody, things that are easy to model,

like those would be, you know, things that would naturally make sense to fit inside of a Bitcoin bank. So, um I do see income as being like a the next phase of this. And I think there's a lot

of interesting businesses out there to be acquired. And like for strategy, like

be acquired. And like for strategy, like all these people who are who are dumping on strategy, you know, using the ATM to pay off their preferred, etc. If strategy wanted to strategy just go buy

a deca billion dollar business that generates massive cash flow and it's like boom, now we have cash flow. We can

pay all those preferred in perpetuity like you know, f off. So, um, you know, I like at the end of the day, like having a major a big balance sheet of Bitcoin, it's just optionality. And you

can do all sorts of stuff with that optionality. And like, you know, it's

optionality. And like, you know, it's easy to say optionality. It's easy to say permanent capital like but until you're like an operator and you're actually dealing with the internally

like the dynamics of having a Bitcoin balance sheet um like you don't really appreciate or respect what it means to like preserve optionality like that is a huge valuable thing and like permanent

capital like your investment horizon is totally different when you have permanent capital you know the the the if we get a if we if we make an investment to acquire something and the

payoff is 20 years, so be it. Like, like

who cares? So, uh, you know, there there's not really many investors that sit in that sweet spot where they're able to look take a very long-term view of what they're what they're doing and

make investment decisions around that.

Like, most investors have a seven-year time horizon or a fivey year time horizon or I mean, depends on the >> timeline. Yeah.

>> timeline. Yeah.

>> Yeah. You you talked about the mechanics of the Okay, go ahead and finish. Sorry.

Oh, no. So, I I just think like, you know, like those are two really unique things about these businesses. Um, the

permanent capital and the optionality that they have and that sets them up to, you know, be very durable businesses and being able to react to whatever market market circumstances and even like businesses I mentioned I was mentioning

earlier like that have very high burn rate at their companies. Um, like they still have the optionality of cutting that burn like there's there's a lot that can be done. So, I really don't

think that you're going to see any spectacular blowups or like I don't I don't think you're going to see anything major happen, at least from like the top tier of these companies that actually

have significant balance sheets. Maybe

you'll see some blowups of some like smaller ones where they can't, you know, stay compliant with listing fees or whatever and, you know, but I think anyone who has over a thousand bitcoins,

um, you know, they're going to be around. It's just is the management

around. It's just is the management going to change? Is it, you know, gonna be acquired? Is it going to have to

be acquired? Is it going to have to pivot into, you know, some new business stream in order to generate income? Um,

but that's what you'll see.

>> So, you talked about the difficulty of the pipe, right? And the shares registering and that time in between and how having gone through it, you would never purchase a company that's still going through it. I think most people,

myself included, didn't understand the mechanics of that necessarily from the very beginning and probably dumped on you guys or on the people whose stocks went up to, you know, I don't know how

high it went, 28 bucks, something like that. And probably and then you get all

that. And probably and then you get all the narratives of they're dumping on us, they bought it and they're selling it down, not realizing obviously that like you were getting dumped on effectively,

right? because you're you can't do

right? because you're you can't do anything and you can't speak I assume because like you are now the CEO of a publicly traded company and so having tal I talked to Mark Moss about this at

length and a few other people I have to imagine that for you that was one of the most personally painful processes ever because you can't really correct the bad takes um and you could probably see

where they were coming from even to some degree right but like it's not like you wanted >> price to go up that fast and that far.

>> Dude, I will say the pipe unlocking and going through this experience. Um,

you know, it w it wasn't my first pipe to be involved in. Like we've done, you know, multiple pipe transactions. The

the um the MetPanet transaction was a pipe. The difference was that all of

pipe. The difference was that all of those pipes that we were doing, we were doing it with uh investors that we had a personal relationship with that uh we

had a shared alignment on. you know, we believe in Bitcoin. We, you know, uh, uh, Bitcoiners have a certain, I guess, philosophy of deploying capital. And so,

it's like, okay, like, you know, it's it's not as mercenary at, not even close to as mercenary as what Wall Street is.

And so, you know, those experiences that we had with those pipes, they were much smaller, too, which I think is another big key element, right?

>> Um, were not bad experiences. And like

at the end of the day when you are taking a company public you have to have some sort of structure financing structure to do it from like you know there's not like the reason people are choosing pipes is because

there's really not another great way to do this um other than to do a pipe pipe financing. I mean that's that's a

financing. I mean that's that's a private investment into a public entity.

So I mean that that's that's what you're doing. Um so it's really about like okay

doing. Um so it's really about like okay the composition of the pipe, who's participating in the pipe, what are the terms of the pipe, um you know uh the

you know are there lockups, are there um I mean all all sorts of questions like that. So you know the the $700 million

that. So you know the the $700 million pipes or in our case it was a $500 million pipe and then an additional 60 on top of it and then I think Pomp did one that was 510 and Strive did one that

was like 700.

those size pipes are like unprecedented unprecedented. So, no one really had

unprecedented. So, no one really had experience, you know, the the Wall Street guys, I think they had a much better understanding because they've seen like different phases of excitement come to the markets and this is this is

the game that they're in. For our

industry, I think everyone was caught blindsided in terms of like how painful the process was relative to what was expected. Like, you know, there was a a

expected. Like, you know, there was a a point in time like when our we did our second pipe and the demand for the second pipe was so strong. I mean, we we raised the 60 million in like two days and and >> yeah,

>> if we had had a week, it would have been a $500 million second pipe.

>> And so that was at $5 a share. So, we're

like, okay, like there's so much.

>> First one was what 112 like 110 112 112 and then five. I mean, five bucks.

>> Yeah. So, we like there's so much >> fair to say there was some appetite for this.

>> Yeah. and and and it's like the the we just we did not think it was realistic that the stock would go really significantly below five bucks. Um much

less go below the pipe price of a12 much less go to right now we're sitting at 49 cents. I mean that's just like it's it's

cents. I mean that's just like it's it's kind of wild to us. So, you know, when I look at the dynamics of the pipe and like what what caused what pieces, like,

you know, um well, there I mean, there's a lot I could say that probably some of it I'm I'm really not allowed to say, but um uh adding in adding investors into the mix that really aren't

long-term bullish on Bitcoin or the strategy is a huge mistake. And you

know, you don't realize it until you live through it, but that capital becomes just immensely expensive capital because if it's going to rotate out like you know, we run an ATM like we can sell shares. Like we don't need someone else.

shares. Like we don't need someone else.

We don't need you to take your private capital and then give you shares so that you can go sell shares at some big uh inflated number like we can sell shares.

So what's the point of us taking your capital? Um, you know, we want capital

capital? Um, you know, we want capital from people who are going to hold the stock and are who are going to believe in the long-term vision and plan and are going to ride with us just like, you know, the first six investors that came into MetPlanet. That's what they did.

into MetPlanet. That's what they did.

Like we're with our Met Planet position.

We've only added to our MetPanet position since since that initial uh investment. So, you know, the um so like

investment. So, you know, the um so like yeah, and then the process is like unbelievably painful because like you can't control the stock price. So, you

know, uh we did the deal, our stock was trading at like a $150 or whatever when we did the deal at at a$112. um uh the

stock goes to $32 a share or something like that like you know on the announcement like the next week and um you know the float of the stock

like based on how much proceeds you raise in the pipe like you're issuing like 99% of all the stock is going to be issued when that when that pipe unlocks.

So, it's just very hard mechanics to manage and you know, it sucks because then people lose money and then they get very pissed and then they just start saying whatever they want to say on on Twitter. And you're right, you can't say

Twitter. And you're right, you can't say anything. You're not supposed to at

anything. You're not supposed to at least say anything that some of the stuff I I just like I I literally can >> I mean I think you're allowed to like dispel outright lies, but >> really you're not even supposed to do

that. Like I the other day somebody said

that. Like I the other day somebody said something and I and I um I commented on it and I got a call immediately from my attorney like hey don't don't say and it's like dude you know like there's a

certain point in time where it's like if you don't say anything you're hurting investors by not saying anything or clarify like you you need to like clarify this information but you know

it's just it's so highly regulated that um it's very limiting. So yeah dude it's challenging it sucks. I don't know if you can tell. Like, look, that's a that's a white hair right there. Uh uh

it's coming in. Here's another white hair.

>> Bro, it's been it's been very stressful.

But, you know, at the end of the day, like there's um the only way through a pipe unlock like that is by grinding through it. Like, that's the only way.

through it. Like, that's the only way.

Like, the only way out is through. And

so, um you just have to hunker down and execute on the strategy and the plan.

And you know, fortunately, um, I've been in Bitcoin since 2012. Like, I've been through four, five, 70% draw downs in

Bitcoin. Like, uh, you know, at the end

Bitcoin. Like, uh, you know, at the end of the day, our balance sheet is we're just buying Bitcoin. And so, from from like that perspective, like I'm able to like sleep well at night, wake up, know that if we execute our plan, it'll might

take us some time, but like we'll be in a good place. I couldn't imagine going through this experience and like having $500 million balance sheet of a fartcoin

or of, you know, AVAC. I wouldn't I you wouldn't even be able to to sleep. So,

um, but yeah, man, it's stressful. It's

stressful and it and it and it sucks having people be down money, but that's also the nature of of investing and the nature nature of of, you know, why you want to have investors that are long-term aligned. I mean, it's one of

long-term aligned. I mean, it's one of those things. It feels like certainly

those things. It feels like certainly not your investors buying the shares at 25 bucks, right? So, it's just people who I guess see a news headline and do zero research, don't look into any of the disclosures and just buy something,

right?

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, because who else who else is buying, you know, at th those prices?

Like you said, it's so low float that I don't think people realize that like you know uh a market order of any even meaningful size can move the price probably 20 30%.

>> I mean even even for our stock like when we when we went to 30 bucks like we traded the first day of trading like a billion and a half dollars of of shares.

>> So you know I think there was just a lot of excitement. Um, I think the story of

of excitement. Um, I think the story of what we're doing at Nakamoto is very unique and we have a a very compelling track record and so I think that that

generated a lot of excitement too. Um,

and you know I I wish in retrospect just knowing how stuff played out like I I we should have taken the approach of like don't buy the stock but um you're not supposed to do that. You'll get sued but like maybe it would

>> that's also kind of a thing. Yeah.

Probably not allowed to say.

>> Yeah. So but um yeah and then I think on the flip side like now the market is is over

overreacting to um like micro strategy market conditions Bitcoin price like uh you know I won't talk about our stock specifically but let's say some of our peers they're trading you know at a

substantial discount to the cash value of of the Bitcoin they're holding like >> this feels so much to me like when GBTC went from 30 a 50% discount and everyone was like, "It's going to zero."

>> Yeah.

>> And it was the most gratuitous buy in the history of gratuitous buys, right?

Like you're literally buying Bitcoin at a 50% discount. That literally though, that feels like that to me this week >> for the first time specifically with the amount of strategy FUD and of course

now, you know, having a dollar reserve there and all these things. I think it's just >> this is how it feels. I remember that feeling.

>> Well, you remember I rate I I I led the the class action.

Yeah.

>> So, um, uh, and you know, we loaded up at shares at a 45% discount. The, um,

you know, it is ironic to find myself in this situation relative to going through the GBTC fiasco, but >> it was a little different.

>> Yeah. But I I I I agree. It reminds me of it. Um, and you know, what ended up

of it. Um, and you know, what ended up happening there is like buying the shares at a discount to NAV turned out to be a fantastic investment. And I

think like that's ultimately what will happen here. Um, and you know those that

happen here. Um, and you know those that don't have like viable leadership teams or viable operating companies, they'll get rolled up by people that do. So

eventually you're it's going to find a good home. So uh yeah, I I I

good home. So uh yeah, I I I uh I think we've overcorrected and I think, you know, it'll be interesting to see how long it takes for the market to

adjust. I mean, I I do

adjust. I mean, I I do um I mean, the FUD against Micro Strategy has been just so unbelievable

and dishonest. And I think the um the

and dishonest. And I think the um the uh the de-indexing and lack like uh removing eligibility for indexes is just

a straight shot across the bow. And in

my opinion, >> from who?

It's a well obviously I I can lay the PL like I can you know we I can tell you what people say. I have no idea if it's true but obviously there's this whole JP Morgan versus Micro Strategy narrative.

I I can't vet that personally. Right.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I can't I can't either. You

know uh Msei uh actually the the MS and Msei is Morgan Stanley. So you know maybe people got the wrong Morgan. I

don't but I MS but even Msei was spun out and now it's like an independent company. You know, I I think that

company. You know, I I think that there's a lot of people that not just a lot. I think it's the majority of of

lot. I think it's the majority of of Wall Street and and in institutional finance does not respect Bitcoin and definitely does not respect Bitcoin

treasury companies and they are very bothered by the success that Micro Strategy has had. And I see it all over the place in terms of I'm not going to

call it jealousy, that's the wrong term, but just a a a sense of entitlement that uh these these outsiders are able to come in and exploit the things that we

exploit and they're able to make money like we make money or even faster than we make money. Right. And like you know I've seen it with MetPlanet all year with the in Japan like you know they

didn't move on an ETF in Japan on the they didn't move on the tax policy for years. They didn't move on an ETF for

years. They didn't move on an ETF for years. I mean and not because of lack of

years. I mean and not because of lack of trying like people were investing huge amounts of time and energy and money into trying to make that happen and they just wouldn't move. And then as soon as MetPlanet is absolutely crushing it's

like okay well how are they being so successful? let's try to identify every

successful? let's try to identify every value ad that they have and let's go attack that specifically. And it's like what's going on here? And you know I I I

think you know MetPlanets accumulated 30,000 bitcoins 40,000 bitcoins like by any like standard they've accumulated huge sum of capital. There are tons of banks that wish they had that type of

capital. And so they just kind of want

capital. And so they just kind of want to shut off the spigot and shut off shut off access to these firms. And and it's it's in my opinion discriminatory and you know it's like the capital markets

version of what happened with the debanking and you know some people called me extreme for saying it was operation chokeoint 3.0 know, but >> you know,

>> yeah, this is what it feels like. And

and um yeah, I think I think you know, at the end of the day, what's great about Bitcoin is that you don't need to ask anyone's permission to own Bitcoin,

to custody Bitcoin, to be your own bank.

And you know, at the end of the day, these people can disrespect us all they want. They've been disrespecting us

want. They've been disrespecting us since Bitcoin got started. And you know, now they're just fighting back and and frankly they're going to lose. So, you

know, this is just the new the new reality. And when Bitcoin goes to a

reality. And when Bitcoin goes to a million bucks of Bitcoin, you know, the people with the biggest balance sheets are not going to be the fiat treasury companies. Um, it's going to be the

companies. Um, it's going to be the Bitcoin treasury companies. So, um,

yeah, that's that's my general view on that, but it's it's it's been extreme to watch. You guys were pretty open about

watch. You guys were pretty open about your strategy at Nakamoto being to find deals like Metaplanet or create them in other like areas of the world, right? So

>> maybe people don't know, maybe you could explain it, but I I can the TLDDR is that MetaPlanet >> kind of was the perfect storm for Bitcoin Treasury Company, right? Because

it was in a country where institutions really couldn't get access to Bitcoin and there was this huge tax arbitrage where by owning a stock rather than owning Bitcoin, you got a major tax benefit. I mean, is that the most

benefit. I mean, is that the most simplified way of kind of explaining it?

>> Yeah. And then fantastic leadership. Um,

yeah. I mean, Simon is just a fantastic executor with a great great track record and experience. And so, yeah, I think I

and experience. And so, yeah, I think I think so. And I think, you know, from

think so. And I think, you know, from our perspective, um, there are many markets like Japan, you know, maybe not as big as Japan, but like many markets like Japan. And, you know, we've done I

like Japan. And, you know, we've done I mean, at at our hedge fund, UTXO, shoot, I don't even know what the number is at anymore. I mean, we we have to be in at least 20 different markets. Um,

you know, we've had several that have been as not quite as successful as MetPlanet, but like by maybe Pure Returns have been as successful. Smarter

Web was a another one. But I mean there are markets like India, Saudi Arabia, um

uh uh UAE, um mainland China, uh Turkey, huge markets that have you know massive uh um capital controls, have you know a

lot of embedded reasons why it's difficult for investors in those markets to get access to to Bitcoin or Bitcoin proxies and the first person who's able to break into those markets is going to be massively successful. I don't it doesn't matter what the rest of the

world's um treasury companies are doing.

Like there is a reason why treasury companies were successful in the first place and it's because investors want access to Bitcoin and there's there's pockets large pockets of capital that can't get it

>> right. There's large pock pockets of

>> right. There's large pock pockets of capital basically where there's hasn't even gotten to the micro strategy phase much less the ETF phase.

Look at what strategy did when he was the only game in town and I guess GPTC was there but you couldn't buy an ETF and if you wanted Bitcoin exposure for better or worse you bought Micro Strategy right and that's still kind of

what MetaPlanet is there so is that still your main focus and strategy I mean you talked about buying cash flowing businesses so that sounds like a slight at least pivot >> but like are you still very focused on

finding all those areas of the world that you just mentioned and >> you know funding or creating a meta planet or a micro strategy or strategy in those So we we funded three so far. Um you

know we did a follow- on to to Metaplanet when they did their institutional um round their their private placement. Um we funded a

private placement. Um we funded a company in the Netherlands, the first Dutch treasury company and we funded the first um Swiss treasury company. And

like there's a lot of reasons why people buy these vehicles beyond just uh uh tax arbitrage or like fund mandate. Um, but

there's things like retirement accounts that exist in each of these markets that can only invest into a certain basket of stocks. Like this is a major item in the

stocks. Like this is a major item in the UK for example. Um, they have like a uh, you know, IRA equivalent and it's limited in scope of what you can buy to buy Micro Strategies. Incredibly

difficult. Um,

>> yeah.

>> Uh, there's also, you know, index funds uh, uh, that buy, you know, baskets of stocks in certain specific markets or in certain specific currencies. So, you

know, there's all these different pools of capital to be able to tap. So, we we did both of those markets. I think

Switzerland especially has a very interesting capital market with a very low cost of capital. Um, you know, there's the two places in the world that have a carry trade are are Japan and and Switzerland.

>> So, you know, we're still uh very eagerly looking at additional markets, but like we are being mindful of like two things. One is like market

two things. One is like market conditions have shifted and so like we want to make sure that we're not deploying capital too aggressively um without understanding like where why

have market conditions deteriorated as quickly as they have. I'm not talking about even amongst treasury companies.

I'm meaning >> no just the market market.

>> Yeah. I'd love to hear if you have any theories about like what what has been >> I'm just going to ask you because I you listen I I mean I was literally going to ask you the same question. Once again,

you know, I can follow the smarter people than myself who point out all the whale wallets that are selling long-term holders who have finally decided to exit, but I can't imagine that's what's

sending us from the 90s down into the 80s. That makes a lot of sense to me

80s. That makes a lot of sense to me intellectually from 125 to 100 because 100 just feels like a big number. But

why would they be selling at 85 and weren't selling at 125 unless they're just like deep believers in a four-year cycle or But I don't think those guys are like they're they're not looking at

lines on a chart deciding when to exit their position. So I really actually I'm

their position. So I really actually I'm not sure. It feels like

not sure. It feels like >> I don't want to say coordinated text.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it feels along the lines of what people are talking about with Micro Strategy. Well,

I just one thing that never ceases to amaze me is no matter how excited we get, no matter how much we talk about super cycles and all these things, there's always someone with a [ __ ] ton

of Bitcoin to sell at any price >> and I don't understand it. I really

don't. I like I can't >> Well, so let's let's jump into that. But

before before we do, let's uh I want to finish the the answering the question you asked. So the um we're still looking

you asked. So the um we're still looking at these markets uh but we're like we're mindful of the market conditions. We're

also like there is a a perception becomes reality type dynamic where and and you know like when and when when our when we the merger happened for Nakamoto

and our stocks getting hammered you know my general view was like look like you know people are going to trade this stuff up and down like we just focus on the strategy and ignore the noise and

like you know the noise does not matter but it actually the noise does matter to a certain degree like there is a a you know perception equals reality where the

stock price is down, you know, the critics are out, and if you're trying to enter a market, you're trying to work with a regulator, you're trying to do an M&A deal, it makes it very complicated

or makes it more expensive or difficult to do it in those market conditions. And

so, like, you know, if I'm wanting to go do the first treasury company in the UAE and I'm having to like partner with all these organizations, they pull up our stock price and they're like, "Oh, wow.

Your stock price has just been slaughtered 95%."

slaughtered 95%." like it's not very conducive to getting a deal done. So, um you know, we are dealing with that and that's also like why we've kind of shifted our

prioritization to um getting some income coming into the business. Like from like my perspective, like what can I control?

Um we want the business to be stable.

Like stability is actually a huge premium in this market environment.

Stability is like a you're a life raft for other people who don't have stability. stability makes it easier to

stability. stability makes it easier to plan and do things. So like the one thing that Nakamuru doesn't have that it needs is it h it needs it needs income.

I'm sorry. Kindly MD needs is it needs income. And so um uh you know one of the

income. And so um uh you know one of the things that's unique about our transaction is that when we put we put it together we we actually have a um

call option to do an all stock deal to get BTC Inc. and UTXO. Um, our uh the businesses that I', I've spent the past 13 years building, those are very

profitable businesses. I BTC Inc.

profitable businesses. I BTC Inc. actually just put out their um year-to- date financial snapshot up through Q3 and um it's like 67 million in revenue,

you know, 20ome million in profit, like you know, u um strong business and that's like not inclusive of UTXO as well. And so um you know those are those

well. And so um you know those are those are uh options um that we've already kind of papered and structured. We don't

have to worry about you know if we call the option the transaction you know falling apart or whatever and um would put us in a place where kindly MD is now generating significant income and then

that income is going into acquiring new Bitcoin or buying the stock back if we're trading at a discount um which is ultimately like where you want to be.

You know, getting back to the permanent capital topic earlier, >> yeah, >> like doing share buybacks is without a without an actual plan of where what you're trying to achieve is a road to

nowhere. You're just taking permanent

nowhere. You're just taking permanent capital and you're you're burning it.

>> And the optics are bad. The optics are bad as well.

>> Yeah. I mean I like there was a there was a moment when we were trading at like a 40% discount to NAV and it's like okay well if you're at like there is some point in time where it's like I can't generate an ROI like this in the

market even over a multi-year period I won't be able to generate that type of ROI so it makes sense but those are like generally you can't deploy very much capital in those types of environments like maybe you can squeeze off like a few million dollars of buys but like

that's it. If you're buying your stock

that's it. If you're buying your stock back and you're trading at a 5% or 10% discount to NAV, it's like, okay, well, guess what? The price of Bitcoin can

guess what? The price of Bitcoin can swing 10% in a day and then >> in a day, right? Yes.

>> Yeah. You're not trading at discount to NAV anymore. And then it's like, you

NAV anymore. And then it's like, you know, you just burned your capital. So,

you know, the because uh you have this capital capital permanently and because you're going to be able to generate yield on this on this Bitcoin over time, like to lose a permanent dollar that you're able to generate three, four, 5%

on per year for the next 50 years, it's a very expensive dollar to to lose. So,

um uh anyway, a bit of a tangent. So yeah,

so we've we've we've shifted our prioritization to getting income generating businesses into um uh Nakamoto because it's going to bring us stability. It was always part of our uh

stability. It was always part of our uh our our strategy from day one, but it it wasn't the priority and now it's become the priority and I think it income's going to become the priority, you know,

for all of these treasury companies um in my opinion. So uh okay, so going switching topics back to uh uh what's going on with the price of Bitcoin. So,

you know, uh, in general, I I I I really don't don't have a a good theory about what's going on. And, um, I would say in every market

on. And, um, I would say in every market crash, I've just about been able to pinpoint like, okay, this is the macro dynamic that's going on that's causing

this to occur. And for us to move from 120 to where we're at right now, which is like what what are we trading at? Um,

>> we're we're recording December 1st. For

people who don't know, this will come out in like six days. We usually try to squeeze it uh closer, but who knows?

We're in the 80s, right? We could be at 100 or 70 when this comes out, but we're in the 80s right now. Yeah.

>> 84,000. So, like this is like a a solid 30%, you know, >> normal >> normal bull market correction from some perspectives.

>> Yeah. I like there is a there is a um yeah I mean in theory like yeah like that we do see that in a bull market but >> you know this doesn't feel like that it

feels like someone is a forced seller and they're liquidating huge sums of Bitcoin and >> so you think this is like maybe an October 10th unwind you know that huge liquidation event and someone's

unwinding as a result? Yeah, I mean some something happened on October 10th and so um you know and and since October 10th it's just been persistent downward pressure and I and I've heard all sorts

of rumors floated of like okay it's this firm or this firm or whatever but >> you know uh to to we're talking about tens and tens of billions of dollars uh >> who's that big.

>> Yeah, there's not many people that would have been that big. They would have forced that forced selling would have been over by now.

All of that sort of aligns with what I was saying about like the 125 to 100 kind of makes sense. Now I'm pretty lost in the 80s.

>> Yeah. And so like whoever like there's only a handful of people that have the amount of Bitcoin to be this big of an impact. And if it's any of those parties

impact. And if it's any of those parties then this could get worse, you know. Uh

now it might not be.

>> We'd be talking about exchanges like I mean people have hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin, right? Yeah. Yeah.

>> Being a big Bitcoin big Bitcoin exchange is not enough. you need to be like a massive one like this would have to be like you're at the Binance level or the Coinbase level you know like something that's systemic

>> and um you know I think if it was like a you know a top you know let's say five to 10 or whatever I think even those would not have made a big enough impact to to cause this you know I the probably

the most compelling thing that I've heard and I haven't looked into the data enough to know this is real is that the basis trade is unwinding and um you know the CME is one of those marketplaces

where it's it's it's quite big and there's a lot of Bitcoin there. Um, but

you know, I I don't think we've even seen enough contraction there to really add up to what we've seen. So, I think in environments like this in general, you have to be like very um you have to

be very riskoff and you have to be very conservative. Um, because the thing I've

conservative. Um, because the thing I've learned about Bitcoin is like it can always get worse. Like every bad thing that that can happen will eventually happen.

>> Such PTSD.

>> Yeah. which is good. That's why we're survivors, you know, like so like in order to survive, you got to have your head on like a swivel. And if you can't identify what's going on, then you have

to assume like whatever the dynamic is, that dynamic can continue. And you need to put on the risk hat of like, okay, well, if this dynamic continues, if if

this price goes down another 10,000 or 15,000 bucks, like who's at risk? Like

there's people who are at risk of blowing up. And you want to make sure

blowing up. And you want to make sure you don't have your money. You're not

they're not your counterparties. They're

not your custodians. They're not your living.

>> Every one of us has been there. I don't

know if you have. Like I've told my stories thousands of times, so it's pretty boring. But like, you know, I was

pretty boring. But like, you know, I was one of Voyager's bigger creditors.

>> One of my proudest moments was when I thought I would had no exposure to Luna and then uh I got the email from, you know, the CEO of Arca saying that they were doubling down on Luna on the way

down and I was an investor in Arca and almost puked. so happy that I had no

almost puked. so happy that I had no Luna exposure and then got absolutely wrecked on that investment. you you we you find a way in this market >> the risk manifests in ways you don't

expect and so and you know the I've also found that if you can identify like what's going on >> and you can keep and you can stay nimble there's massive money-making

opportunities as well in even the worst pessimistic environment like as much money on the way down as it is on the way up and >> all of it's made I mean the the true money is made by you know buying when

you want to puke and then not actually puking when you and selling, right? So,

>> or or shorting things. I mean, like one of our best investments that we made at UTXO is like when when we knew FTX was was um in trouble, like we went and

identified all the bank partners that um are going to have, you know, basically a run on the bank as people are margin called and we shorted the banks and we shorted we shorted them to zero. So, S

uh Signature and and Silvergate and so, you know, wow, great businesses. I I I mean maybe not signature but silver great was a great business and I I respect those guys but at the end of the day it's like guys if you're going down

like it might as well be us that's making money on you going down and not you know hedge fund XYZ that that hates this whole shebang. So um so yeah I mean like if you can identify what's going on

you can get ahead of it >> you can avoid it but you can turn it into an opportunity. But it's

interesting because you said in an environment like this, and I think when we're describing this environment, it's like you have 50% of the people who think it's a 30% correction and 50% literally think we're in the fourth turning and Bitcoin's going to like 10,000, right? There's like no in

10,000, right? There's like no in between. You're either super bullish or

between. You're either super bullish or super bearish here. But in the past, if you were saying this is a time to not take on risk for Bitcoiners, that would mean I'm just going to buy a bunch of

Bitcoin and wait. This time it doesn't feel like that. It does feel like even a lot of the smarter people are afraid to buy right now because it might go much lower. It it just feels different in

lower. It it just feels different in that regard.

>> Yeah, >> I'm not. And maybe I'll be an idiot. I

don't know. I listen, I don't think you can ever be an idiot for buying Bitcoin unless you think that 126 was the forever top. So like, yeah, I can argue

forever top. So like, yeah, I can argue with people on Twitter all day because I share all my buy who think I'm an idiot for buying at 88 or 95 or whatever. I

think those are Yeah, call me Call me in a decade. people an idiot at at 10,000

a decade. people an idiot at at 10,000 and at 1,000 and at 500 and 100 and they're like I'm finally right. It's

like Yeah.

>> But but with that said, it feels like a lot of people who are in my camp are not buying right now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, I think it's because there there is so much uncertainty as to what the catalyst is.

And, you know, I I actually think another thing that you mentioned it earlier, the four-year cycle. Like, you

know, I've I've been a big believer in the four-year cycle. like this cycle.

Yeah. Not anymore. This cycle I I just like from the the trenches like the the market structure has changed. The buyer

has changed like and uh I think the four-year cycle is is it's different. I

don't know how it's going to be different but elongated or maybe whatever. And um uh but there are still

whatever. And um uh but there are still a lot of of OGs that are that are that is the mental model. And

>> yeah, they believe like, oh, I saw a Reddit post that said Bitcoin was going to top on October 6 and it did. I'm out.

Right. So, I do think that's a big part of it. And and uh and I think like okay

of it. And and uh and I think like okay uh you know it it's it's very interesting

like if the four-year cycle um is broken then the mental model that people have used like the biggest holders of Bitcoin have used to determine risk on and risk

off environments like that's broken and now they need a new mental model to understand what's going on. And when you need a new mental model like when you're in an unprecedented situation it creates uncertainty. And when there's

uncertainty. And when there's uncertainty, it's riskoff. So, it's

like, you know, like I could see like this is like we're it this is the breaking of the four-year cycle.

>> Makes a lot of sense.

>> Um, and >> that makes a lot of sense because >> Yeah, it makes a lot of sense and I've thought about that a lot as well, but you articulated it well. I think for a lot of these people, if they've been deep believers in the four-year cycle

and kind of just whether it was self-fulfilling or they just believe they knew where price is going to go up and down, now all of a sudden you have to be like a 10-year, you know, to have studied macroeconomics for 10 years and

understand the Japan carry trade and why gold's going up and silver's move and interest rate arbit. I mean, these are just a bunch of guys who bought a lot of Bitcoin early and had the balls to hold

it. They're not macro economists. And

it. They're not macro economists. And

even the economists have no idea what the hell's going on, right? Like look, I mean, the last two weeks ago or whatever, whatever, the stock market was 3% off all-time highs and the fear and

greed index for stocks was like four. It

was like the most fearful markets had ever been and they're at an all-time high. So, nobody knows what the hell's

high. So, nobody knows what the hell's going on. Well, you know, if you peel

going on. Well, you know, if you peel back the surface of the stock market, it's really just like the mag seven and then the majority of stocks are actually

down on the year um uh outside of the mag seven. So, you know, it and it's

mag seven. So, you know, it and it's given us an all-time high score, but like it's not an a even distribution

across um you know, equities. Yeah, I um Yeah, I it's it's interesting. It's like

it it is forcing people to evaluate what their what their worldview is. I will

tell you like the spin on it that the bullish part is is like we've also been captured by the four-year cycle and like once we break the yoke of the four-year

cycle and the four-year cycle now all of a sudden can become the eight-year cycle or you know like like now I really couldn't imagine something more bullish than us establishing like hey this is the new normal. There isn't a four-year

cycle.

>> We're going to have nutier next year.

Like if we have >> we don't need to assume that the next three years are going to be complete [ __ ] >> Correct. Like if we have a bull a bull

>> Correct. Like if we have a bull a bull market next year, it's going to like send the bullishness for the next year like insane because it's like oh wow

like new new paradigm um you know it's it's not trading in four-year increments anymore. So yeah, but I mean you gota um

anymore. So yeah, but I mean you gota um you got to have conviction in in your investment. And I think, you know, there

investment. And I think, you know, there there are a lot of of Bitcoiners that are absolutely convicted who've been around a long time. Um, and then I think there's like uh uh there's institutional

folks that do not share the conviction, they're just following the money. And uh

I think there's also um you know, there's some OGs that didn't sell a dime and once they got over 100K and they're sitting on 10 billion plus,

>> they're just like, "Okay, let's start selling." the person who sold that

selling." the person who sold that 100,000 bitcoins at 120k, I forget uh how many exactly they sold, they're looking like a genius right now. So,

>> real good. Feeling real feeling real good, >> especially if they're in a tax-free zone of some sort, right? And don't owe 40% of that to the United States government.

I guess I guess with all this in mind, I know we're kind of coming up on on the end of time here, but with all this in mind, like the lessons you've learned in the last seven, eight, nine, nine months since you've been doing all this, I I guess is there anything you would have

done differently or more, I guess directly, is there anything someone who's trying to do it you would advise?

I mean, listen, you guys just stuck your necks out, right? So, like all credit in the world, you couldn't have known what was going to happen until it happened.

Yeah.

>> Right. And listen, and I I very transparently I started buying Nakamoto uh once it dropped below the pipe price.

I was like, I'm doing better than these guys. I'm let's go, right? Um and we'll

guys. I'm let's go, right? Um and we'll see, right? So, I don't expect anything

see, right? So, I don't expect anything uh you know, it's a long-term investment for me. I don't flip flip stuff around.

for me. I don't flip flip stuff around.

But, you know, if someone was starting this right now, would you have raised capital in a different way? Are there

like announcements you would have not made? Do you think the SEC or even like

made? Do you think the SEC or even like we've heard rumors that the NASDAQ's not looking at these favorably at this point? Like would you have not done a

point? Like would you have not done a reverse merger? Would you formed a new

reverse merger? Would you formed a new company? I mean, there's a million ways

company? I mean, there's a million ways this could be done.

>> You know, I like I still would have gone the pipe process, you know, to do the IPO. You still get to the same

IPO. You still get to the same fundamental question of like, okay, well, what's the valuation that which you're raising money at? And you know, like you you still get to the same crux of the issue. You know, we actually when

we did our pipe, our northstar was like, "This is our all-in bet." Like, we're rolling everything into this. All of our personal relationships, all of our capital, all of our businesses, like

this is all in bet. So, everything needs to be structured to be maximally fair, uh, maximally transparent. We didn't

take like a big vig of the transaction to pay ourselves. We didn't like we we like when people like you pipe you priced the pipe too low. We priced the pipe at the value of the money that was invested. if we priced the pipe higher,

invested. if we priced the pipe higher, it would have just been a payout to us.

So, it's not like there's not like some mechanism to like share the upside with like the public or whatever. So, um so yeah, I mean, uh uh everything we've

done, we've tried to approach it from doing it the right way. I think the the lessons learned from the process are really you you need to have long-term

aligned partners and we could have raised one-third less money and the third we didn't raise is the third that sold right away and we didn't really

need that capital and so like that actually just became a weight on the on the uh on the business. I think the other thing that we messed up and and um you know hindsight is 2020 is like on

the convert that we took like we locked in this convert that had amazing terms 0% interest you know long three-year time horizon etc. But what we didn't appreciate was like

the convert arb uh ecosystem and and you know even though the convert we took was didn't allow shorting it it there there was the ability to syndicate the convert

to other people and those people could short and so um you know uh it's a very long agreement that's a very tiny sentence in it that was the pivotal

sentence but you know if if uh if you're a stock that is like thinly traded and someone goes and shorts your stock for $500 million. Like, you don't have a a

$500 million. Like, you don't have a a seasoned enough cap table to support that type of selling. It's going to crush the stock. You know, we're not our our capital stack is not the same as

Micro Strategy when they were a company that was a 20y year plus company that was public and they had, you know, a a wide shareholder base and could support that type of of shorting. Like, you

know, when GameStop does a a short, you know, the stock trades down 5% because they have a robust you know, liquid stock.

>> And so that was like a a dynamic, a market dynamic that we didn't really understand or appreciate. And and I, you know, no one we have great advisers, we

have bank bankers, etc. And you know, no one really picked up that that was going to be as big of an issue as it was. And

so like that would be some advice I would give is like when you're looking at financing options, there are lots of ways to structure um

uh debt and you need to take into account the the nuances of the capital structure that you have in order to determine like what's the best um uh

debt approach. And and then I think the

debt approach. And and then I think the last thing I would give advice to someone on is like you got to understand and and and maybe this is just like

you know maybe this is obvious to other people but I mean I've been running a private business since I was 22 years old like you know uh you know I I I I have a certain philosophy of how I do

business and that's what I've done for 13 years and I think a lot of people in Bitcoin and crypto broadly have a similar philosophy. Wall Street does not

similar philosophy. Wall Street does not have that philosophy. And uh Wall Street does not give an F uh about any of

anything but making money. And uh they will smile and you know shake your hand and tell you whatever you want to hear as they

>> slit your throat.

>> Yeah. And um you know the the like you know I won't call anything out specifically but just like you got to understand that you are not you are not

the customer like you're not you're not the person everyone's trying to like uh make good with. You're the product. You

are you are the prize pig being led into the sausage factory. And there is a whole ecosystem of businesses that are there to make money off of you because

you're a one-time thing. And you know, once you're gone, there'll be another prize pig right behind you. And their

kind of job is to just pillage as much as possible. And and no one will really

as possible. And and no one will really tell you the real no one's in the business of telling you the truth about what's going on, right?

like you have to think completely independently and assess these things for yourself because you just can't trust all of the the inputs. And then

even further, even if someone has good intentions, the other thing I I've realized from this process, you know, I've probably taken I don't know 200 phone calls with investors over the past three three months.

>> Yeah. you know, uh, if I were to take all of their feedback and advice and put it on a whiteboard, uh, 50% of people would tell me, "You

should do more of this." And then the other 50% of people would say the exact same thing. I should

same thing. I should >> Yeah. And so it's like, okay, well,

>> Yeah. And so it's like, okay, well, like, you know, you know, these people, what they want is they want the stock price to go up.

That's what they want. And so they're literally everyone >> opinion that they think is going to help, but it's just their personal opinion. And and so like at the end of

opinion. And and so like at the end of the day, you know, you can't just rely on people's personal opinions to direct you about what's the right strategy to do. You have to make your own

do. You have to make your own assessment. You have to focus on the

assessment. You have to focus on the midterm and the long term. You have to be okay with just not having control over the immediate term. You know, it's funny like since launching, like we've had a couple things that we've announced

that I thought, okay, this is like really bullish news. The market's going to react super positively to it and the stock's down 10%.

>> Crazy. Okay.

You know, there's days where we've done nothing. Like our best performing day,

nothing. Like our best performing day, we we did nothing, woke up, we're up 20% in a day. And it's like, okay, like you just have to like appreciate that there's just dynamics at play and you

just you can't control them. So, you got to focus on the medium to long term, no matter how hard and painful it is. Yeah.

Yeah. And I and I think just like if the number one thing is like seek out people that are aligned and believe in what you're doing and work with those people and like it's not about what your stock price is today. It's about what's your

stock price going to be five years from now. And you know if you don't have

now. And you know if you don't have long-term aligned people your stock price five years from now could be the same as it is today. Like you know like you need to build the exactly what

Bitcoin did, exactly what Micro Strategy did. you build a diehard group of people

did. you build a diehard group of people that are ride or die on the strategy and the business and and who are betting on the team and um anyone who's like not

bought in, they can buy the stock later.

Like they can buy the stock once we've gotten through all the hard stuff. Like

the people you want the people who are going to hold who are going to ride with you, you know, during the hard stuff and so >> of course.

>> Yeah, that's what I would optimize.

>> Marriage.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's funny when you talk about the bankers and all the people shaking your hand and stabbing you in the back. It's like comes back to the

the back. It's like comes back to the core ethos of big boys. Don't trust

verify, right? And but you don't know until you know.

>> Yeah. No, I mean it's it's boys the men like there there are no boys that survive as the as a CEO of a public company. So, you just got to

company. So, you just got to >> I don't know.

>> It's I will say on the flip side, it's like as stressful as it is, when you're winning at it, like when you do good moves, it feels so amazing. It's just

like it's like it's a very challenging thing and it's just the fulfillment that comes from like achieving something challenging. And um you know, I I

challenging. And um you know, I I honestly I have so much respect for sailor. I mean, I've always had respect

sailor. I mean, I've always had respect for Sailor, but like >> after >> after going through the past three months of just like the stock price and the volatility, etc. And I look at like what Sailor went through at a similar

age when Micro Strategy was like the tippy top of the dot bubble and then you know what everything that followed after.

>> Dude, he has been through the gauntlet.

like he is uh he is an absolute Roman general and and that experience is what prepared him to handle the situation

today. You know, other weaker men would

today. You know, other weaker men would be struggling right now with the amount of scrutiny >> that he's under. And he's just as calm

and focused as a freaking bullet. I

mean, it's and and that comes from that experience. And so, you know, you can't

experience. And so, you know, you can't be a a a grizzly war veteran without going to war and, you know, battling it out. So, it is what it is. It is what it

out. So, it is what it is. It is what it is.

>> It'll be interesting to see where everything heads, man. I I appreciate you taking the time. I'm glad we had this conversation. It clarifies a lot of

this conversation. It clarifies a lot of ideas in my head and I I think you tend to have the right uh vision. You know,

it's basically just zoom out. And uh I just can't imagine I know as an individual how hard it is even to I don't even have a portfolio tracker. I

hate knowing so much, right? So I just deleted it so I can't even see. But like

as the CEO of a publicly traded company, I can't even imagine like waking up and wondering what the stock is every day or who's saying what. It just seems like uh you really uh threw yourself out there.

So yeah.

>> Yeah. No, I mean true. But I dude, you know, we've been doing this for a long time. like there's really nothing else

time. like there's really nothing else in the world to do but this. And if I could do it all over again and someone said, "Hey, do you want the opportunity

to have a public vehicle that has, you know, a half billion dollars of Bitcoin and um the ability to pioneer Bitcoin in the capital markets, that's a dream come

true." And so um

true." And so um >> yeah, worth it. And you know what? I'm

I'm in my mid30s. I turned 35 this year.

Like I'm doing this the next 30 years, man.

>> I'm be 50 next year.

>> Well, you have the heart of a 35.

>> I have the DJ the DJ years.

>> You know, you can't you can't do anything great. That's that's easy. It's

anything great. That's that's easy. It's

got to be hard. And and you know, like we got to see this thing all the way through. We got to see Bitcoin all the

through. We got to see Bitcoin all the way through to hyper Bitcoinization. We

have to see Bitcoin through until every central bank, every government, every corporation, every individual has it.

And you know, at this point, we just have to see it through because we've been working at it so long. You know, I mean, it's like you can't start a journey, a quest, you know, The Hobbit would not have been published if Bilbo

gave up, you know, before they ever made it to the mountain, you know? Like, it's

just >> definitely never got into the Lord of the Rings, right? So,

>> the next generation, dude, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate it. Uh,

much, man. I really appreciate it. Uh,

and I hope I want to have another conversation in the notsodistant future once things stabilize about all of the things that Bitcoin treasuries can do once this all kind of uh, equals out

because I think uh, I think people are uh, still confused as to how many innovations and products can come of this uh, once things are

>> normal. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

>> normal. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

>> All right. Ciao.

That's dope.