THE ION PACK - Ep. 107: Part of the Band with Matty Healy (Special Film)

[Music] [Music] one fan of the iron pack these guys are liberal filmmakers they cannot be trusted we were watching Mean Girls we

got eye on Pat we got that Tony Hawk is in the house if your agent calls me in any way whatsoever you're fired from the film I always wear this bucket hat when I'm

directing left-wing politics this is a film I was obsessed with trash the movie's trash you know creative New York City and you never make it in this business never make a movie why do we

have to see his [ __ ] name in the movie I'm crazy about sound podcast you don't see a film and say Joe schmoe did the [ __ ] food I don't make movies I

make film films I go mentally ill he hasn't made a [ __ ] good film in 25 years rub vaseline on the lens bro hacker reduced black ratio Doritos bags look mad different you're already

creative we get it you make out with girls let the creative people talk to the money people as a filmmaker he is nothing at zero he's a pig piece of [ __ ]

foreign [Music] there's a whole group of guys who pretend to be making special films [Music]

thank you [Music] I'm my [ __ ] line producer trust fund

let the creative people talk to the money people very creative what you do hey all right yo what the [ __ ] is really good everybody we're here with Maddie feeling let's get the [ __ ] into it King

of the 1975. he's back in New York he just landed long time coming got the elf bar got the [ __ ] recess Stakes on Ludlow

yes we did potting for four hours in real life but now he's here on the couch we finally made what time is it it's four in the morning you can believe it

wow it's good to be here how's it feel to be back in New York well we have the show come last time I was in New York I was just like

picking up with with you guys kind of hanging out but um yeah no it's good I've got to go to Pennsylvania tomorrow and I gotta make

this show work because we have like our MSG thing yeah but um I love New York man but it kind of burns me out pretty quickly

it's like I have a weird relationship in New York have you spent much time in London I have actually only been twice yeah the pound scared me off at the time because

it was everything was double as expensive and I was like going to like bridinghouse cafe or whatever yeah and I was like I can't I have to leave tonight I went to fabric a bunch into fabric

yeah that's quite fun I mean I kind of have like a bit more space out there but I keep talking to you like I kind of want to just get like a place

out here because you gotta do it well it's like I like this I like the kind of scene like I don't really have a scene in in London and then

like I've got I've got mates out here and it feels like there's this like it was this thing that we talk about all the time it was like kind of the internet became like four websites

didn't it yeah yeah and that's where like [ __ ] is as well like oh is it's where everything is so like in the early days when we were coming up and there

was like all this like subversive [ __ ] on the internet like places to find music or like see like I don't know dead bodies more like rotten.com yeah yeah oh yeah lemon

party lemon boy yeah big shouts but but um even outside of like the premie kind of stuff there was like

well you see it in like our favorite movie you know like we live in public that that kind of like utopianism of like the internet like the possibilities of it and like

so the the the type of punk that you'd expect uh within that like we kind of like lived through and now the internet feels like it's kind of quite like

sterile environment where you know it had you know it's kind of boring yeah you know that's why I'm kind of attracted to like that's why I became a fan that your guys

pod and then when I started hanging out over here you know it's like it's interesting because it feels like even if it's like on like patreon or sub

stack and something like that it feels like there's something like genuinely kind of subvert but I want to say subversive but like something that's like

not sanctioned or like kind of like totally sanitized you know I mean and it's quite nice but like people are just like talking and it has its own audience and it has its own life do you know what

I mean that's what um because that's what creates like good art doesn't it like the what do they say that one person needs to rise from that the Dare is interesting we were talking

about in regards to the dime Square I think big shouts to Harrison because the dime Square thing has like been lacking in music yeah which New

York never has exactly yeah it's really it it feels like music is back that was a huge that was a critique when people were

in the dime squared Twitter discourse I saw one that really hit a while ago was the real problem with the dime Square scene is that there's nowhere yeah Brad schrammel said it straight to our face

yeah where is the arc guys yeah we were like it's like it's coming I think it was like this covid thing everyone was living online too much we started a

podcast yeah but it's really it's really coming back music feels in New York feels good right now I've been doing a bunch of interviews you know you're like you're [ __ ] what

you know you do you're like you're Guardians and your New York Times and stuff like that I've told them I'm using like I'm essentially paraphrasing like broad tremel here like

you need to you need to put I'm using the language yeah I'm using tremelion language seriously like seriously no I'm not joking yeah I know the guy is [ __ ]

goated like we love him right like we love him and um and this is the thing it's an interesting thing with jamella because like if you're talking about like oh like I'm like a writer right

yeah so that's what I do and I suppose like what I'm good at is like um I don't know like

presenting like ideas let's say that's what it is in my lyrics but I'm not like the Sometimes the best person to even articulate them like fans or friends

will come over to me and like articulate like my work like better than like I could yeah yeah the thing is that tremel has this ability to do it's like he just has the ability to kind he just

has a really strong cultural awareness right and it kind of like gets art from the inside and the outside he gets it as an artist and as a and as a kind of

consumer of Art and when you're making uh having somebody who's like that on it yeah you know putting that stuff out there is really really interesting now he doesn't

quite have the audience that I think he deserves oh totally but you know most people most like dope people don't

so yeah well that was something so last night we went to see Vincent Gallo talk biggest subject we signed an NDA that we would not talk about it we said we you couldn't record I don't know if it said

you can't talk about it I'm pretty sure that's what it said really can I not talk no we should talk about it you have to talk about it no because that's the whole thing we were talking about this before Gallo has blurred the lines to

the point like he's made movies post Bad Bunny yeah and they're not out there now is the knot out there I was saying for listeners I was saying

you know there is some kind of responsibility not just to your audience in like a fan way but there's responsibility to the kind of Canon of

the history of art to have it have a life it's it's like to contribute to like a evolving history of art but you were saying well what if the him not releasing it and having this kind of it

existing him having this philosophy of why it can't be out in the world that is his contribution to the Canon so it actually is more responsible to the Canon of art than even if he had released his Persona yeah exactly which

is he is he is his art yeah exactly which I think is a difficult place I would find that difficult to get to as an artist because I think there's an element of like well there's an element of pretense

there that I kind of don't really step into like I like to kind of it's funny of me to say because a lot of people call me very pretentious yeah like I do kind of try and like

take the wizard robes off a little bit you know what I mean I like kind of I don't I'm not as I'm not as don't see myself or like to present myself as a high artist or I had to debase that

sometimes yeah but the thing is with like yeah with like Gallo now like what what is it like we're talking about it you know I mean you went to a talk

where you couldn't have a phone you signed an NDA well you know we've had excited conversations like as young people like talking about like maybe that's what it is now like you know he

um he's kind of he's a really really interesting artist in in that respect but it does challenge the idea of

if an idea is not being met yeah an audience yeah it's not being communicated is it an idea like does art actually exist if it's not if you say you've met yeah it's complete you know

if you haven't given birth to something has anybody seen the baby right exactly well because it also it also allows you like I just thought okay made like Buffalo fair enough so like he he has

that yeah yeah but like people who haven't made like go a chick exactly it's like it becomes an excuse like you can make something that is so

impenetrable or go even further that doesn't physically exist yeah if it's so impenetrable like it can't really be criticized like you're not really taking a risk and that's kind of what like

making art yeah exactly no that's what putting our out is about right you know I mean opening yourself up to that critique and kind of like allowing that to be part of it

um but um so how much can you talk about that I don't know I didn't actually read the NDA I decided I thought it just meant like this is like you can't record it I didn't right I don't know if you know how to talk but they made sure we

didn't record it by not taking our phones then yeah but I don't know whatever we take his justifications for not putting those movies out did kind of

[ __ ] me up okay because I believed what he was saying and I believed in his his desire to not be recorded like we've asked him to be on this pod you know plenty of times and last night I was

like I don't know if I want to ask him again because he genuinely has like an artistic belief that a recording of him speaking his ideas takes away some freedom from him or something yeah I

mean I I don't doubt his sincerity as an artist I just wonder how much of it is a construct you know what I mean like yeah no it's true that's why when people are always coming you know KJ's unreleased

movie I have an unreleased album everyone's like you guys say all your [ __ ] but like put your money where your mouth is I don't have a counter I'm like you know what you're right no they're right generally well I mean that's what

we spoke about before as well is that like you guys I'd kind of I said this is born out of being like

first this happened when like covered yeah sorry it's like frustrated artists during covert and it had a vibe and you have like like you've spoken

before you have like cold pods and you have like hot pots it happen to be like a hot pod right we don't know how Curry might have a pot but I bet it's cold yeah exactly

there's so many cold pods who's the one that's like you'd think would be hot but it's cold I hate to say it but like actual famous people have cold Parts yeah it's really wild there's

like a Brie Larson pod wow yeah you know what's going on there's been plenty of times where I'm like oh what's up with XYZ artist who I used to see all the time who's kind of disappeared and look it up and I'm like oh they have a cold

pod surprise surprise big [ __ ] surprise there podcasting is the new being in a band right yeah exactly exactly you said that though yeah I don't want him he did it's a good they are in a band

together [Music] I think that what we've spoken about before is that like I think that

talking about culture is fine but making culture is what you want to be doing exactly and I think that like tremel says like he's right like

everyone's got to put their money where their mouth is do you know what I mean like I think that like the thing but the thing is that I liked about about the the drew me to you guys and

then I think why we became friends is because that's always been quite obvious in this part that there's like a sense of optimism it's not like a jaded thing where you're like [ __ ] this and this

[ __ ] sucks and like you know I'm getting older and whatever yeah it's like where's the [ __ ] yeah where's the good [ __ ] yeah where is it I want to find it and can we be part of it should we pop

up part of it let's talk about like what we can do um you know so and that's what and kind of that's that's what it's about and um

I think that it's really cool that that this is like part of your broader artistic like statement you know what I mean because yeah it's it's like most

people like okay here's my hot take like post doing like let's do it loads of like [ __ ] interviews and [ __ ] like yeah right

is that you as an artist when you put a record out like reviews are like a thing right and like you know like you do interviews

with like journalists and [ __ ] like that now I wanted to do this partially because of like our friendship but also because I'm a fan of this and I enjoy this so there's some things I'm doing that's

just like for me yeah there's some things that you do that you do right Now Music journalism is one of those things where it's like

now I don't want to like I don't know I don't want to [ __ ] on like music journalists right oh please wish it on film criticism all the good

music journalists that I really love like Joe the New York Times or like Laura Snape's or Michael Han all these people they're kind of writers yeah you want to

write books exactly end up do wanting to write writing books if they're good enough right because the truth is right there's no famous music review

yeah facts there isn't one there's famous pieces of critique you know you've got like you've got like Frank Sinatra's got a cold or like you've got like famous pieces of or Mark Fisher on burial yeah Mark Fisher

on burial you have like famous things that come through but they're not more reviews they're more kind of like you know exactly philosophies on there yeah and it and there is a sense of like the personal relationship the writer has

exactly yeah but the thing is with music journalism is that even with the Internet is that music journalism is a service right like when you had like linear streams of media like you would

buy a I don't know like a newspaper or a music magazine and the reviews would be like adverts it'd be like what are you going to spend your record money on like and you'd read the reviews and you judge

it based on that now by the time you have to read the review you've already got time to listen to the music and make your own mind up so it's kind of like it

becomes just an exercise for writers to write yeah which is fine yeah but if you're a writer and

that's your art and that exists purely based on somebody else's art that people care more about eventually you don't want to be that

yeah you know unless you're like the most famous music journalist ever that I can't name who is that I don't know and I'm not this is a thing this is not me

being like a resentful like because we've always had great kind of kind of good reviews or like mixed reviews that I'm not a jaded artist but it doesn't music and like the the critique and

music and film is like very very different like um so there's that so it's kind of like there's no famous music reviews so you don't really need to worry about that

because like like it'll it'll have a life of its own you I don't know if I told you this story which is a different tangent but like like what has been weird for me recently

is watching like like we love like film right and filming TV let's I say TVs and it's like Golden Age yeah that's exactly right yeah

music's not no film is weird weird but pretty gray a lot of the time a lot of good movies yeah and um I was thinking about this I was

like talking to the I had like I was sat next to some like 13 year old kid he's like the son of some like music guy and I was just like talking to him I was like hey what so what kind of like music do you like and he was like I don't know

and I was like well what like um what artists do you listen to and he was like um I was like all right well what's what

songs do you like and he said he said what full songs whoa wow and I was like whoa yeah well yeah that too essentially that Tick

Tock [ __ ] but like I didn't realize that the form yeah that I recognize as being the smallest denomination yeah like the song it doesn't get like yeah smaller

than smaller than the song I was like whoa okay now and then I started thinking like well

it's interesting with music because that isn't happening in film and TV we either want like content to be six seconds long

or six months long yeah yeah we want like the longest story that has like Dostoevsky level narratives and 50 different characters yeah you won The

Sopranos every week but then we all we want it to be like six minutes yeah if somebody says to you can I show you a video and you say yeah and they pull up YouTube and it says nine minutes

it's over yeah that feeling is just the worst feeling yeah yeah wait no but it's good yeah it's at four minutes it's like stand up or something

[Laughter] but it made me think like well maybe like say you have like Instagram influences

right yeah some like young girl who's cute who is not even like sexualizes herself but some like young cute girl and she gets a bunch of Instagram followers

I've noticed quite a natural con their natural step is like they get a ukulele or they get a guitar that becomes a uh what's it called like

a SoundCloud link yeah yeah it's like listen to my music buy my music yeah it's never read my screenplay like yeah

right so it feels like the what people have seen is this almost like shortcuts like like doing music is kind of easy if you're cute enough almost not just with

girls but with like dudes as well whereas like there's no kind of like social media shortcuts to like being a dop yeah or like writing being a great screenwriter do you know what I mean

yeah which is why I think we're in this kind of weird place where like there's still great music but there's just a lot of dross and like well yeah it's it's so weird because it became this thing where

if you told musicians from any other era what if you didn't even need a label you could sit in your bed and press a button and everything you've recorded which you

could do in your house by yourself was just available for everyone in the world to see they would have said oh that sounds like Utopia that will never happen and that it's exactly what happened but it somehow has become my

essentially it just became like worse because it over accessibility kind of over saturation it cheapened like being able to make money off of it it just

actually it's weird The increased accessibility actually got bad well tramel let's bring about yeah talks about the idea of how like

oh what does he say he was saying that like it well no it's kind of that it's kind of a Mark Fisher idea isn't it where he he says that like

the idea we all kind of buy just assume or buy into this idea that young people are at the Forefront of cultural change right and that's always been the case through

the 20th century but it's also because like the economy has allowed that to happen you know where are we like in the 90s you could be a

middling musician afford to live around here working like a coffee shop do you know what I mean there would be parties

not every single space was sanctioned between like you know like essentially the cops and the real estate industry yeah there was places you go party there

was places where things were happening but now young people don't have those environments they don't have any money and they're forced to kind of make the most homogeneous they're like making the

what does he say like the flat design for the internet stuff do you know what I mean they also have to sell themselves in a way they didn't have to before let's get the bag we we grew up you

can't sell out yeah so when we were growing up the one thing you didn't do was sell out and generationally they had to morph that in to get the bag because

capitalist Capital they sound like a sixth format just the way that the world is now doesn't allow them to do that yeah I mean so it's kind of like it's difficult

and also like I'm in a band so like I can't really relate to this individualization of subculture because like all subculture has become like individualized right

yeah you used to used to dress like groups of people like scenes of people now kids dressed like individuals like the incentive to

create to like unite and then be bigger than something yeah the idea of the individual like you know The Strokes are the last people to change how people dressed yeah me and KJ still do it yeah

you know so it's like it's it's kind of like it's that idea isn't being sold to people because to be like a goth when I was growing up you had to find out where the Goths hung out in your city you

could talk to them yeah find out what shows they went to yeah read the books they read watch the movies and you immersed yourself in a sub culture and you became that thing yeah it doesn't really exist anymore yeah exactly

um but maybe that's just like kind of getting older maybe there's loads of [ __ ] going on there but it's because it's hyper it's hyper competitive I mean labels used to invest in like kind of

raw potential now you have to have your own brand that has shown some kind of at least on the internet success before well that's an interesting thing though because I've thought about this as

somebody who runs label right because I try and put myself in the shoes of like a 17 year old kid because when I was growing up I was you thought you need label right so you get really

really good and you impress the label and then you put music out whereas now you just [ __ ] you just put music out like that's what you're kind of doing so when I'm like looking at a young artist

or something or traditionally you'd think don't have anything out so when you come out it like explodes yeah right but then

I think if I was 17 and I had the ability to like put music out yeah and I hadn't done it yeah how much would I want it yeah you know

it's kind of like I wouldn't have been able to like I didn't I couldn't get arrested I had to start my own label at 21 after every label came and literally went nope too weird you want an indie

band you know what I mean so if I had the ability outside of Myspace which we did put our music on and stuff like that if we had the ability to like put stuff on Spotify and hope that it

catches an algorithm or something like that we the the 17 year old me would have done that right so it's only kind of with the professional hindsight that I could say oh you know don't do this or don't do that but I also don't really

believe in that because I think that like now Discovery as much as it was when we loved alternative music right so Discovery was always part of our

experience that when you first heard Forte on like 120 Minutes or something like that you had to be up at two o'clock in the morning and be a weird kid yeah so you had that solidarity with

those people right now you know it's like I you know I look after like an artist like Bieber doobie like one of the main

reasons Bieber doobie is enormous is because the Lion's Share of her fans have been there from the beginning and that's why she's big yeah the enemy didn't go this is your new favorite

artist here's one song We're The Gatekeepers of culture listen to us right kids were like no we've made the decision we [ __ ] with her yeah do you know what I mean and I think the

discovery is a massive part of the experience of like having a relationship with an artist now do you know what I mean yeah yeah no I know of I won't name names but I know of

more than one person who passed on Lil peep because they were like oh yeah what is this small labels and then obviously it was it was that they just it happened

organically online and everybody was like kicking themselves it was the same thing with the 75 like we couldn't we weren't we had this whole thing of like I was

trying to say because when people when people came to to like our studio like we played them if you know the 75 like sex chocolate

the city like all these like early songs yeah they were all there yeah but it didn't sound like it didn't sound like the bands that were getting signed at the time these kind of like post

Liberties Arctic Monkeys these kind of bands but they were getting like huge deals on labels and I was you know we're in touch with culture we like being on the ground levels you know

what I mean I was like that at 17 I was a spec I was like a nerdy kid yeah and I was saying all these like lofty things like the band didn't dress Indie we played like weird instruments lately you know like and I was like we create in

the way we consume and that's what's gonna happen like like nobody listens to a genre of music anymore like that's an old thing yeah so nobody's gonna be

incentivized to create a genre of music at any point and if they are it's gonna feel retrospective Because the Internet is just opening up right

it's it's just opening everything up it's it opened up gender opened up style that opened up aesthetic it opened up everything and everything became a conversation do you know what I mean as opposed to

anybody telling anybody what everything was yeah um so we were always like that we were always saying that's what we're gonna do and then like I said we couldn't get

signed so then we set up our own label like maybe naively but only just because like Austin our manager believed in ourselves and then Zane Lowe started smashing our record and and that was it

yeah and all the major labels came back and they were like yo what's up we were like yo what's up how are you guys doing

and we kind of managed to be like well you know it's happening now and you can't get into our show reading festival and all this stuff so it's like you know

I think the really lofty pretentious thing I said at the age of like 23 to a bunch of regular people was like

is my car but you can get in the back that's kind of what happened like you know like we never I've never had a dude in a jacket or any

there's never been a person involved in 75 that isn't me Jamie Patty um you know like our team so um it worked out well in the end but and

that's a powerful position to be yeah that's like pretty much the best that is the ideal way it is it is but it only but it's like it is but it was born out

of like it was born out of strife do you know I mean like it didn't feel good at the time no it didn't feel good at the time but the nice thing about it is that it didn't come with any kind of like

vitriol yeah yeah Redemption right like I didn't like I genuinely I almost like empathize with these P these people I was like before the word Boomer existed

I was like these guys are just they don't get it like he and I had this like a whole album in my first regardless whether you like 75 or whatever like loads of people do and I had like that

whole album in my head I was like I just I just need yeah [ __ ] just do this just trust me like people will like it this sector people will like it and um that was also so yeah so like yeah like

owning our own label and like and you know and since then we've done the Japanese house wolf Alice like Biba doobie rinasawiyama like like we've become like a a proper label you know

but but the reason that the label works is because we just want it to be Factory that worked yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah we don't we don't have like a board room or a way of doing things with our

artists we basically fall in love with an artist like gorp at them and then go what you want to do yeah yeah yeah what do you want to do I'll pay I'll pay

like what would you want to do that yeah so it's like besides stuff that we love and that we believe in and then it just does its own thing because it is an artist I think if

you start getting into the the way of trying to create Artistry you know what I mean you get like well sometimes it does work you know some of the biggest artists in the world right now but you're having a marketing meeting rather than like a an art

meeting but the thing is it's like yeah and and I think that that's where

I don't really I I can't really understand the whole like the um not that I can't understand it is that you know that oh I get canceled all the time but I don't really

yeah so because I'm not homophobic I'm not racist I'm not done a Sex Attack yeah I'm not like I don't actually get canceled I just like sometimes say something that isn't

like isn't everything great and everyone nice you know what I mean like so it's not that it's just so what I don't empathize that much with is like PR teams I don't see the point when the

veil now is so thin between fat like it's gone dude after Rave like you used to have like David Bowie and the audience yeah and the audience were like

they might as well have been looking at Bowie like that and he's down there and same with Michael Jackson all that kind of [ __ ] Rave happened and it became way more democratic

it went like that yeah and it was that actually the audience are just as important this is David Bowie was saying this actually the audience adjusters um

adjusters do I need to am I good so I'm having Tech problems but I'm just saying that back in the day there was this huge like

pantheonized they're like there was pantheons of culture right yeah she had pantheons of culture back in the day that were um that were on this massive pedestal and you'd have people looking

up at Bowie looking up at Michael Jackson looking up at all those kind of people and then when rave music happened it became way more democratic and it was like nah the audience and the performer

are just as much a part of that kind of thing so and then so that became established and now like 30 years later we're in this idea place

where you can like tweet Rihanna yeah yeah if you tweet the right thing yeah she might tweet you back like like the veil of like if you had a problem with Michael Jackson back in the day you'd have to

have a problem with it during the day then you'd go home and you write a letter send it to the fan club yeah you'd wait for the by the time you'd written to let

you know you're over it yeah now they can just DM you now they can just damn you So eventually what happens is that the veil between artist and consumer becomes so thin

any pretense is like so oh is like as authentic as a Diet Coke yeah like you don't believe people who were just like not dynamic or like yeah you know what I

mean I don't have any Dynamic and this is the thing I've talked about on like my well like people ask me questions about my latest record which by the way I'd rather not talk about yeah this is I think one of the misconceptions that

people have about art is yeah like you know what I mean like [ __ ] chat I'd rather like do this yeah [ __ ] off I mean I don't want to like over explain my Arch you know I mean I just like have to do it my heart don't even over explain

my music and then yeah just listen to it yeah just listen to it you know what I mean because it's like also it's good for me yeah so it's good therapy it is yeah sometimes it's like I think it's about

you go to a therapist this is how I feel this is what that means and they go are you sure this is not how you feel and it doesn't mean that you go oh [ __ ] good

that's how I feel with music sometimes but um I digress because I I was just saying like there's no the artifice there's no point in it so what I feel

with me is that like if you're with my word of the month is like Earnest so like if you're Earnest all the time

you get like ever diminishing returns on your like authenticity because it's not met with anything else yeah so for example at least when I say something

like real from the heart the people that listening to it my fans are like [ __ ] I'll believe that at least yeah oh oh [ __ ] Ali said that can't believe he said that because

that's not what I say all the time yeah and I think that this is the thing it's like I don't I don't think that people should like pretend to not be people anymore in this kind of thing and it's

not post-wokeness I am bored of wokeness yeah like I do not see it as a viable world view yeah but it's not that it's just like an era of more like

authenticity do you know what I mean yeah totally yeah that's I mean kind of back to the podcast conversation I think we kind of openly will just kind of try

to work things through on this and kind of not even arrive at a conclusion at the end I'm like I don't know maybe I was completely wrong I don't know and I I I personally like when people do that

because no one ever does people people think that it makes them some some type of like more uh strong of a person to just

be bullheaded yeah and and and and like just be kind of pontificating all the time and it's actually in my view makes you much more stronger of a person and

more realized uh more secure of a person to I don't know admit that maybe you don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about like well the new one conversation is

the arrival if you arrive at you know working that problem out well it's actually working that problem out is is what you should be arriving at yeah it's not coming to a conclusion

because there aren't conclusions and everything you know no things are true and not like things are contrary it's like you said it's like one day you're canceled and then the next day you're

not well I had a tweet the other day is it like Ireland on Monday was like we the nation of Ireland yeah like we hate

you yeah never come back here Island on Friday it was here is your number one album congratulations I don't think that it means anything

back to tramel yeah tramel says you can only know around about 150 people

so everybody has a social media account so they once it gets over 150 people they naturally start performing to their

followers as an audience yeah now when you have an audience you become the main character what is the main character be benevolent and good unless

you're a troll which you do anonymously nobody plays the main character in their real life yeah so you search for ways to be the main character

and it's so solipsistic but you don't realize that because everybody else is doing it which is why again I'm paraphrasing tramel you'll see

Taylor Swift and some guy that works at a micro Brewery that you went to school with posting like they're talking to a packed Convention Center yeah yeah yeah it's a weird phenomenon yeah yeah and

this is where cancel coach comes in because culture recognizes that everybody wants to be the good guy but people don't really have a bad guy in their life yeah most people don't have a

worthy adversary yeah especially that suits The Narrative of the benevolent protagonist so every week culture generates a bad guy

for all of us good guys yeah to turn around and go look how much I hate the bad guy and look how good I am for it but the reason we forget about whatever moral indiscretion or I don't even have an

example right now it's because we don't give a [ __ ] about it because it's just I don't want to sound like Jordan Peterson but it's just like [ __ ] virtue signaling it like it really is and

everybody is tired of that yeah like it is tiresome like the infographic era is tiresome yeah if we can solve the Middle East problem on Twitter

should we true true should we right yeah no no should we treat things with more reverence because now everyone's an

activist which is apparently the most important role in the world but everyone is one yeah so it's the most important role but

everything needs to be taken the most seriously done yeah but everyone is one yeah shouldn't we just have like really really good ones yeah and we do what we

do and let them be like really good activists and we support them and Empower them and uphold them and let them be pillars in their Community or whatever it may be instead of all using

it to demonstrate that we're a nice person because no one gives a [ __ ] yeah you know like that David Foster Wallace thing you will care a lot less what

people think of you when you realize how seldom they do yeah yeah exactly that doesn't apply to me but like if you're a normal person yeah yeah yeah I know doesn't it kind of [ __ ] you up to think like so many people who you know

casually if you died they'd just be like out chilling like two days later maybe the same night yeah I mean what else they supposed to do

I don't blame them but it still messes with your head more life goes on things yeah yeah that's what bums me out about like kind of the concept of like death it's not that there's like I'm because everyone's

like what's it like after you die it's like the same before you were born I wasn't like sat there for five billion years like like I'm not worried about that but

I don't like leave the party early yeah exactly that's that's lame yeah exactly it's the idea that like culture and humor and jokes still go on without you that's what weird me out is all the like

trees and mountains and stuff it's that like it's fomo Nuance yeah some technology and [ __ ] and nothing good parties

yeah yeah like like that's well but that's that's what life's about I mean parties man you always talk about parties the parties are yeah exactly

they're important all right they are they really are that they're more well yeah again this is the internet thing they you know people look at parties or

this is like the word party I guess it's like an unserious thing um which I guess it can be but but those are real kind of not only culturally defining things but personally defining

things like that that's the kind of the point of life is other people you know and also the the the the the the kind of if we

talk about that genius idea that we always exactly it's like there's certain things that wouldn't exist in so for example there's like

things that 75 is like quite a big band now and then you hear like other bands doing like versions of what we've been doing and those ideas came from a place like my

ideas like if we didn't throw like The Nightmare Before Christmas Eve which was like my house party uh the night the night before Christmas Eve which was the most infamous party this is at a time

where like skins parties were a thing as well so like the police were very involved was in the tabloids and all this kind of thing but we had just like a bunch of bands play at my house now my

friends banned Airship Elia ended up being in the band editors but he played this song with his band and it was like this like droning chord and

the bass kind of like revolved underneath and I was watching I was like what is this [ __ ] song it's unreleased band didn't have music out we were just [ __ ] around that song

essentially is sex which now is like this huge song now if I wasn't like at that party not a show yeah because you don't go to a show

and steal someone's song yeah yeah yeah I'm a pie yeah that's my friend's band and they're [ __ ] going nowhere you know I'm not giving you publishing

earlier it's like a droning chord it's like the inspiration was there and um yeah no parties are are I mean you see it in like meet me at the bathroom or

whatever yeah exactly like that kind of like when someone first discovers Judy and Casablancas like he is a person his personality inspired like that whole you

know moment so um so that's the thing like and there's less there's less environments for like kind

of unsanctioned kind of parties yeah exactly I mean that's kind of New York strength which is why I love it here but um it is important it's it's when things

get too online it becomes that main character syndrome saying like we're talking about everyone's just individually speaking on a Podium to their however many followers

that like it really kind of I mean the word Community gets thrown around so easily that almost doesn't mean anything anymore but it's more nuanced than Community it is this kind of shared thing like you're talking about you

hearing this band play genius thing and and it's it's a shame because it's just like in a competitive economy because things are expensive and it's hard to make money off art so people become a

little more infighting now not in fight just more competitive and you have this theory about the kind of weaponization of wokism due

to the economic situation that we're in yeah yeah yeah explain that I I think um well I mean cancel culture or whatever

you want to call it it started under the idea that you wanted someone who was dangerous or predatory Etc you wanted to put them get

them out of the way make them not in a position where they can be Predator anymore okay great who's going to disagree with that but it evolved into something else and I

would notice just people took Glee in these things happening and it wasn't because they were excited that a dangerous person was gone because a lot of times people being canceled it was not even for anything dangerous it was just something they said or what it was

you know there was there were no there was no threat from this person it was just people were finding Glee in someone else losing getting out of the

race yeah yeah it just oh yeah no you're talking more about like there's more room for me now because this person's out of the way this person is a little more successful artist than me now everyone's hating on them great now

there's more room for me and people were I could feel like the ex people taking Glee and someone else's downfall and it wasn't because a dangerous person was not able to be dangerous anymore it was

purely self-interested it was no that's the funny thing about it though is that like what P like the people this confusion between like cancel culture

and just what the Town Square is now is that like if you're Harvey Weinstein and you're like a criminal and you get found out to be a criminal then loads of

people talk about it and the main place that people talk is on Twitter yeah that's not getting canceled right that's just being a criminal now yeah yeah

that's why I'm not like worried because people ask me about that are you never worried about like the kind of [ __ ] it's like do you never think that the reason that I'm not worried is because I haven't done anything wrong yeah

it's true yeah it's true you talked me out of this well after after the infamous crumps piece oh the crumbs piece yeah yeah which I [ __ ] loved yeah I mean the whole thing he's a great piece of

writing yeah you know you talk to me you you gave me this this talk of like it doesn't actually have real world effect you have to realize like what you're you're being affected by something that

doesn't really exist it's like Nick and Adam it's like the Stella guys it's like yeah people who are like how are these guys not canceled or like aren't they so on the on the edge it's like they're not worried about

it because they're basically Good Guys well no it's because you can you can you can sniff it out you can like this is the whole thing it's like you know we were just laughing about what's that [ __ ] Jordan Peterson [ __ ] where he

said that like government mandated girlfriends and he was like being deadly serious that's so funny the guy just used to get like so late

um yeah the but but what why did I mention that because like what were we talking about um for [ __ ] that uh the the

capitalistic competitive nature of no no no but like the crumps piece and like oh I've just had oh okay so you need to let like dumb or like racist or like bigoted

people talk so you can be like so you can ignore them yeah I mean you can't like sense to people because you like need to be able to hear where like the dumb [ __ ] is right yeah but no I think that

there isn't like a real world effect to that because it isn't people don't really like care that much yeah like people don't really care about anything apart from outside of their life

everything else is kind of like a performance so this is the thing is like with you guys with like the come town with the Adam Friedland show boys with all those kind of things like

you know where it's coming from because you can feel it because you're a real person yeah you don't need to explain to you yeah yeah it's like a movie yeah it's like if there's [ __ ] if there's like a movie and it's about a guy and a

woman and they have two kids and they're getting a divorce and one of the kids wants is that you don't start the movie by saying hey this is John and this is Jane and they have a you just cut into

the conversation and your your brain and your empathy and your Sam your sympathy and your being a person kind of kicks in yeah so it's like I like

sure misconstrue things all you want yeah but like the truth will out and the truth will out by how interested people are in it because like it's just not really it's just all

[ __ ] noise at the end of the day like you know like and we've kind of it's also about like conditioning with like your or your audience if you're chronically online in like a

woke way what you're really doing is waking up every day and being like I need to affirm to the world who I am yeah right so when you do that every day yeah so that great line in Louis where

uh Leno phones him up and he's gonna get the job at like Letterman and he's like you can't be funny every night it's like you can't be good and woke and virtuous and clever and smart and an

artist every day like on online so when you try and do that it kind of like yeah it kind of doesn't really work and then I think that you just get into these kind of Cycles

where you buy into this idea that you have all these like real world consequences that you don't because it's a [ __ ] app for grown-ups I Twitter is it Twitter is a game for

grow I don't want to be like really trivial but like it's an app that you download that you go on and you get as

many hearts as possible Yeah by if you put through your behavior um that's what it is yeah and it's become this like part of society and stuff like

that but that's what the incentive structure is yeah nobody go nobody's like people go on Twitter for entertainment you know there's no like you know like

the guy who sits down on like the Sunday and reads like the Sunday Times yeah she doesn't go on Twitter yeah yeah he's not like what's going on yeah this is not why people are there yeah

they're there to be like titillated and annoyed and you know it's like so it's kind of what it is that's why I've like stopped the woke [ __ ] because the woke

[ __ ] for me wasn't even like woke [ __ ] it was like kind of real like I grew up like my Grandad was on like the first drag queens in the UK I grew up like

with both of my parents being like uh West End theater actors so like all of the people around that were around me that were really successful were kind of

like gay black interesting like they did things with their body or they they were musicians for a living so I was just like all right I'll do that do you know

what I mean yeah and I saw where that came from so then when I became a growing up and I became aware that oh you know what there's actually kind of groups of people that try and like oppress these groups of people

whether it be gay people or black people like not to be selfish but like as an artist I was kind of like guys this is where the best art comes from yeah yeah you want like good art just like leave let these people be let these people be

and just like do their things like I've always had like very classic liberal values and what I would call like now like the morally obvious yeah yeah totally don't

oppress people I mean like obviously yeah you know like don't be like a fascist don't be horrible to people because of the way

they live their life and then so like but then it's a bit like by one point and so I'd always be saying these things you know like I support these ideas and then you know like wokism and you're kind of you know like

the movement that happened in the wake of like Jordan Peterson Peterson and all of your kind of like sjws and stuff I find myself like saying what I thought were just like classic liberal beliefs

and then they'd be like yeah and and defund the police and I'd be like no no no no no no no no no I'm not kind of like backed away from like the

Twitter yeah exactly yeah because it was like I don't want to be a pawn in the culture War I also want to write about it and be able to make jokes so I don't want to be like part of it and like be a

hypocrite and also like it's not yeah it's not um I don't know it's it's not something that I so for me like the things that I really love in my

life are like good funny and like good art yeah that's like the joy in my life yeah I was like that's all I want to kind of present

in on well they're kind of mine it comes to in your lyric especially like love if we made it and then songs on the new one you you like reference things in a way that kind of makes sense that draws

connections that doesn't feel uh like you're just kind of throwing things into the void but it's not like really stating an opinion I wouldn't say that that's exactly political music well this is the thing now this is a this is

not like something that I intended but because people have said that to me before I've reflected on what they meant and I think it's because like I am not judge I'm not a judgmental person I love

my opinions you know we talk [ __ ] like or whatever but like I'm not a judgmental person I'm also very willing to have an opinion listen to someone and have it change in

real time yeah have it changed in real time on camera yeah I mean like totally no exactly that's what I was wrong about that so the things would love it if we made it that song wouldn't have worked

if I'd have gone you shouldn't do this you shouldn't do that yeah yeah that's wrong that's right because my lyrics because I'm always asking myself stuff

it's always questions it's like should we do that is this image okay like all these rhetorical questions that were kind of like no yeah I was just

kind of stating the morally obvious and I don't even think from a position of the left I just think from a position of like a human yeah yeah yeah like so I think that there's a kind of there is an

objectivity in my lyric there is a subjectivity my lyrics where I'm I'm not I'm not judging because you can

quite easily hear that I'm like figuring myself out or like um but but yeah that I think you just kind of

that that that that came with like probably like so much introspection on my first couple of Records then when I decided to go out I think that like

that require I knew that that required like a lot of empathy right you know what I mean yeah because like I'd spoken about myself like with such um with such analysis and kind of nuance

and care I felt like right well if you're gonna talk about the world like you need to do it with the same kind of thing which is why I kind of try and do that yeah I wanted to ask you about it's

interesting to hear you say like how long were you off of Twitter for well my actual Twitter that became like a thing that went in 20 what was that

when the George Floyd when George Floyd happened oh nice because I tweeted the um I was getting like hassled on Twitter to the point that I noticed it which I

never really did because I'd be yeah soft canceled a million times yeah this is what I was talking about conditioning right so I hadn't conditioned my audience to shut the [ __ ] up basically

about stuff that was not a place to talk about on my healy's Instagram right like [ __ ] Israel Palestine yeah people are asking me about that on my Instagram but I have a bit more respect for the

situation yeah yeah I mean then kind of like anyway but so what happened was I was getting [ __ ] hassled and I was in my era where I felt quite um

my back against the wall like you do like when you yeah you feel like it's not a nice feeling man when loads of people are having to go here so everyone was like why don't you talk about this why don't you talk about this talk about everything why you talk about

this is because he's black he's like I wasn't [ __ ] what are you on about so I think I tweeted something and then I tweeted love it if we made it

because love it if we made it was a song that came out two years before that I'd worked on for like a year and a half that wasn't a tweet that I'd thought up in a minute it was like the most

cohesive thing I had to say on that subject right which was what people were asking me for yeah and then I did that and then people

were like you're trying to monetize The Death of George Floyd right for the half of half a half a half a pence you get yeah I was a bit like what the [ __ ] are

you on about like and I didn't run away I was just a bit like in that moment I kind of realized it for what it was it felt unhealthy it you know it's not that it felt unhealthy I just I got the game

yeah yeah I was like oh there is no apology or there is no you can't tweet enough stuff to make it right because that's not what people want they're not there for you to make it right they're

they're continuously make it wrong so I was just like [ __ ] it I'll just write about it you know what I mean so I kind of like stepped away from it and now people don't expect me to talk on

those issues people kind of give me the benefit of the doubt a little bit and give me a little bit more context yeah because yeah because it's a bit like

you know I don't quite do what like Harry Styles does like not to call out Harry Styles I think that he's great but like he manages to like say by nothing exactly enough like literally

nothing that's my sort of question because like you get people like to like to me like an ideal would be someone like burial who just drops an EP at the end of the year and like yeah yeah you just don't hear from there's the Mark Fisher interview and then that's it yeah

but then we're obsessed with people like Gallo who I mean he had a moment on Instagram where he was like doing his t-shirts and all this and he's he's provoking and he has lots of opinions

about lots of things and it's the idea of like the person alongside the art and like where is the ideal is it a constant engagement with the public and a provocation or conditioning this is the

thing we were talking about like we'd watch videos or interviews of Hunter S Thompson probably more than we'd read a lot of the stuff yeah Rolling Stone that he did like like sometimes like like

Burrows is a figure I'm probably more interested in than Burroughs as a writer do you know what I mean like guyson is a figure same kind of thing and Basquiat

as a person way more than an artist and but like so yeah I I don't know for me like like Nick Drake [ __ ] died yeah so

he's forever interesting do you know what I mean yeah so there's like there's in death you have that right but I feel like it becomes I have a song called like nothing revealed everything denied because it does become a bit like that

do you know what I mean like when people just become what I don't want to be is so quiet

on what I actually believe that I'm allowed to be celebrated through Association and projection so you stand me next to

demna gaspalia and someone goes Fashion Icon yeah or you stand me next to Stevie Nicks on a red carpet and someone goes sort great songwriter you know I mean like I'm not really interested in

association and those yeah yeah yeah yeah and I think a lot of people are now do you know what I mean like very light you know everything's very associative I think the 75 didn't really grow up in

this scene that I'm so obsessed with because I've always really craved we've always kind of been like kicked out of scenes to be honest with you like we've never really been a loud in scenes not really like feel sorry for ourselves but

we just never really fit in and then we never even fit in when we got big yeah yeah yeah we just didn't like we didn't fit in with like the Tame Impala the Mac Demar I like but me and

Mac are mates and stuff like that but like never which was great because we were never in anyone's way yeah but it's difficult sometimes because

like I'll see us like headlining some like huge Festival I'm like why yeah we're like a band and like who else is and there isn't really anyone else that's doing and I don't think that I'm

like that's but so we're a weird thing yeah we've never been in a scene we've never really been accepted by we've just been we're like the biggest

like cult band right Main Street yes yeah I think the alternative the alternative scene only just starting to get us on this record or maybe on notes um

kind of just being like the bit like we always say like the biggest band in the world that no one's ever heard of yeah yeah and I think also like things that were cool in 2014 2015 People Like Us

are very aware of yeah like hating on the 1975 is a bit like old school I've seen as we've survived and we're still [ __ ] pretty sick yeah I mean it's a bit like yeah no that is a weird feeling we I mean we

talk about this all the time because we're obviously we have I don't smoke Vapes by the way it's just because Curtis lend me is because you can't smoke in it it looks good on you

what is this like I think it's Peach Berry girl and gummy bear yeah girl girl Curtis likes kids stuff um [ __ ] what was I saying I don't remember

no but it's a the reason I was bringing it up with you is because like your music is good enough that you could have no public engagement and I think it would probably be as big as it is yeah but like

but I had to okay fair yeah fair enough but like there's some people that do that like really well and it's kind of like Frank

Ocean does that right I mean he does it like perfectly but that's Frank Ocean yeah and I think that like with me

regardless of whether I like it or not I'm not a Gallo you know but me definitely sets the context for like

what the 1975 is yeah like without me like even talking to you guys in the way that I talk like the 1975 is a bit more

confusing like I do yeah context in a cool way I I don't even really care that much to be honest because like I I

I grew up like are we getting to two conversations here nepotism baby let's put that to one side

I grew up in a invite I grew up where my parents were famous in the UK right but they were famous in this kind of you have like the National Enquirer

right we have like the tab like the tabloids in the 90s were [ __ ] brutal but the people that they would go for you know you would occasionally get your Angelina Jolie and stuff like that but they would be like soap stars right that would be like the level that you would

go to so I grew up going to the shop on my way to school and seeing like my home life like my

parents marriage or something like that like in the newspapers and stuff like that I just grew up with this idea that my life was subject to

conversation right before the idea of Internet Forum which is kind of why I'm so obsessed with like this idea of forum and the internet yeah yeah yeah but the reason I mentioned that is

because I was a witness to the mediation of the media quite a lot when I was younger right how you do it why you do it when you do it and I was never that like I was always me I was never going

to be an actor I was never going to do what my parents do like the 1975 started when I was 13. like you know what I mean we were we wrote sex when we were 15

roundabout so it was like it was all we were always gonna be doing that so I didn't expect like Fame I don't know

what like the 700 800 cap venues around here are but in Manchester if you were playing those you were [ __ ] massive yeah that that's for me where I thought my band

would be playing right AFI played the academy one right yeah that was they were huge if you ask me yeah the Apollo that's a different level the arena it's

Green Day I mean forget about it yeah I mean but when I did get famous in my own way I think a switch went on in my head where I was like I can't do this [ __ ]

chat like I like I'm not in Daft Punk I'm not burial I'm not from you know I'm not I'm I'm

not a um I'm not a ghost do you know what I mean like I'm kind of like Aladdin in like a real band yeah and I think that I decided to make every interviewer

conversation which is why I became such an interesting interview but it was only because I wasn't doing interviews right yeah I was just meeting grown-ups pubs and telling them how I felt and then that's why I got pissed off with

headlines that's what I don't like about interviews is headlines I don't mind interviews it's [ __ ] headlines yeah it's like I'll say something

and then it says mati Healy says this yeah but that's like I've gone [ __ ] yeah ladies and gentlemen in the barn stood up and being like can I [ __ ] tell you my opinion that's not what I've

done yeah yeah I was in a conversation yeah yeah yeah yeah like it would be in any conversation then you text so then and then that's the thing that goes on Twitter and then everyone's like what's up what a [ __ ]

silicon why is he talking like that and I'd feel the same do you know what I mean because I don't talk in headlines that's Loki why you are a bit Gallo because that's sort of his

gripe with yeah his interview yeah he says he's always taken out of context and he's just trying to talk and that's why he won't ever be recorded ever again but that's the opposite of me I'm like

I'm just gonna push yeah yeah we'll call it Gallo early career yeah because the truth will out you know what I mean like yeah people like some guy from The Times

asked me a question the other day he was like well why do you think that when people do get like called out on the internet they'll like retreat with their tail between the legs I was like

maybe because they did it yeah exactly yes if I got gripped doing something like being a Roman yeah that's what I do I have retreat with my tail between my

legs I don't I haven't done anything like wrong do you know what I mean so I'm not like that worried about like expressing my opinions you know what I mean and and I do I do

this is a thing I'm in the business of selling records they're in the business of selling newspapers right yeah but it's not even the company like if you're a young writer

what do you want do you want to do you want to sell my healy's record to the best of your ability yeah exactly or do you want

to demonstrate your ability as a writer yeah of course you want to demonstrate your ability as a writer so it's never like a it's never an objective trade-off do you know what I mean

so um I just do it now do you know what I mean and like let people take stuff out of context because like who gives a [ __ ] yeah yeah it doesn't [ __ ] matter yeah

what's interesting how it Paints the listening experience though because it actually does become a 4D when you're like listening to like your guy's new record and I can like go through your stories I actually I like the 4D like it

bleeds over into reality in a way that I enjoy well this is the whole thing like it why can't like why it's all real like it's all one part of like one holistic

expression like it's a person like that's why people relate to the 75 because they relate to me because people like people yeah they don't like ideas for a bit they do yeah but what people

like is like Dynamic and conversation and truth and change and growth and every [ __ ] comment on songs that

people love about 75 as being like I've been listening to the 75 since I was like 16 and like I've grown up with them yeah and it's like there's this

idea like who is it like bow text like Bo Burnham text me the day out of the blue just saying that like what's nice is that like

like being afraid to grow up makes you less subversive and less interesting whereas like embracing growing up

is kind of cool and sexy and like not like getting old like growing up right because like your 20s especially with me with the 75 like I was defined by like

all of that post-modern [ __ ] nihilism addiction self-obsession you know all those kind of things and those nihilism

and it's very those are that's kind of a cool appropriate sexy

way of being like in your mid-20s but eventually Life Starts presenting you with different less sexy ideas

responsibility question mark family question mark depending where you are yeah and when I talk about responsibility I don't just even me I mean like personal I mean yeah you know

I mean like like just being like being in service you know yeah like these ideas aren't like raw dogging and doing smack yeah like

that's easy to write about yeah it's harder to like write about like earnestly wanting something

yeah that isn't like edgy and cool and [ __ ] gnarly and yeah totally makes you look a little bit lame in it's just not as cool right like and I

think that that's what I like about where I am because I can kind of do that and it be real because guys also

who are in bands which there isn't a lot of now yeah but especially historically get to like a time in their career

and they want to like own being a man so they become Macho and we had this whole conversation about like Macho and tough like REM tough yeah

right like everybody Hurts okay you know but like I love that song it's the best yeah but um there's that but still it's like

we didn't want to remotely become like Macho didn't want to talk about ideas in a kind of Macho way but um I do talk about masculinity on the record quite a lot like I talk about

like school shooting and like yeah well that's a strange one because yeah there's so there's such a difference there was there was like clearly and it can be debated forever why or how or or

whatever or if it's entitlement or if it's legit whatever but there's clearly like a problem of young men feeling alienated and disenfranchised and then

you have your kind of like post Jordan Peterson influencer types who are like essentially telling them how to be a man yeah exactly yeah and I'm sure a lot of

those guys actually do have some good points but there's so much more to being secure as a man than just like toughening up well Jordan Peterson's just doing what a lot of people's dads

should have made yeah exactly yeah but there's there's something that's kind of what what I'm trying to say is there's what's missing in the conversation is this thing you're saying of like being in touch with yourself and your

responsibilities and and your responsibility to the world around you and being like a moving part of society like that there's a huge difference between that and like just toughening up

or something or being like just taking what you want and being like like steamrolling people 100 and still wanting to be part of like relevant like conversations like the conversation that we were talking about like yeah it's

it's not just a problem with with with men right it's problem with young white men yeah yeah right and

it's a phenomena and it's not really being addressed like I think the way that I try that I think the empathy that I come at it with that song is in like the second verse I have

like you got to show him he's a [ __ ] you gotta [ __ ] him up good you gotta smash the competition go and kill it like a man should it's like I heard somebody talk about this idea that like

if the only vocabulary or like lexicon we're providing like young children like young men to like assert themselves is one of such like violence and domination

yeah some kind of toxic masculinity especially in like underfunded forgotten parts of the country is kind of inevitable so there has it's very very easy to demonize like some 18 year old

kid who dresses up the joke as the Joker and goes and [ __ ] shoots a bunch of people like of course it's easy and maybe appropriate to demonize them but that comes from a place and the problem that you're talking about is that the

right wing are incredibly equipped to deal with that disenfranchised type of person because they have this ideal masculinity whatever it is that's presented in the books of like Jordan

Pearson or whatever and stuff like that like it's like for example like we don't have an ideal liberal masculinity yeah what is it like the poster boy is it Joaquin Phoenix in a Peter hoodie yeah

right what is it yeah and even though even though but to finish my point what happens is that you have these floundering kids that aren't on particular floundering

men who aren't particularly on the left and right but aren't being addressed in any way by anybody really and then the right then Jordan Peterson turns up and

he's like oh you want to be a man he has 12 rules how to do it yeah and they're like [ __ ] thank [ __ ] and then I'm not necessarily talking about Jordan Peterson but a lot of these characters

then they kind of sneak in the paranoid right-wing kind of yeah in the back door but once they've got the kids in there like the recruitment that the right wing have of like young disenfranchised men

is not met with the recruitment of the left because we don't really know what we're doing well yeah because they're not but yeah and I also think where I also think as endlessly funny as they

are true like progressing where where are we going no no that's true no that's true there's all like look at what you've done wrong or look at why you have to take about back seat there's no like way out for them and that that is a

problem and as endlessly funny as like Alpha Beta Chad virgin jokes are I do think that Paradigm has like broken young kids brains a lot that's why I'm

saying like people like young men are so afraid of doing anything and not even young men like people horage yeah like are so afraid of doing anything that is perceived even to themselves as like

beta that they like regress to some kind of like I trying to become Macho oh so we're getting into like a post like into the Andrew Tai kind of influencer world

I'm not even saying that this is like a thing that people are like watching influencers on I'm just saying this is kind of like an ambient thing in the Zeitgeist that kind of affects men I

think so there's like um I haven't really thought about that they want like people really want to just show strengths in a really kind of generic

old definition of strength and it's actually there's like as a reaction to what you think that just the past kind of like job just kind of thinking

thinking that they're being like being paranoid of being kind of like uh unappreciated stepped on this guy which are natural ways to feel but they're very easy to feel in the modern economy

I think yeah and just like the modern attention economy and and especially as an artist and like a really competitive landscape people really it's so basically my whole point is I feel like

as smart and progressed and have as smart and Progressive as uh young culture is now um people kind of end up accidentally reverting to just

like really old generic ideas of strength even men even if it's they think they're doing it in some new Progressive ways well we yeah I mean there's that whole like

that weird new form of like Trad masculinity yeah exactly dudes like dressing like yeah they work just like back to the beginning we're just back to the beginning of the cycle you should

have seen New York five years ago man I mean yeah used painters outfits they were chopping wood in down Square I was taking pictures in South London at one point and we were genuinely sending photos

being like is this guy working for National Rail or is it or is he on his way to the pub in Peckham yeah I can't tell the difference there is no difference they did it well it was a

good cosplay this is a thing because I think that maybe I'm doing that a little bit like with this I don't know that's kind of like no but

this took a while to not well it's definitely still pretentious but this took a while to be authentic yeah okay did you wear a uniform in school growing up yeah I did me too are you wore a

uniform that's interesting Jack in time oh did you yeah because I was until High School I was super jealous of like because I grew up on like obviously like you know like Moesha like all like just

American TV shows yeah yeah the fact that you guys didn't have a uniform blew my mind yeah well I went to Catholic school so well so but the majority of

schools are not uniform right when I got kicked out of my private school I went to the public school and I was stoked because I was like I can like wear jeans but isn't that so that's normal yeah this is what I think there's two things

that would have stressed me out the thing that would have stressed me out is the idea of getting dressed for my peers at that age yeah every day yeah that's

one thing yeah second of all if you have a uniform you can't like see who the poor kids are exactly and that's kind of important in an environment where like kids are developing like

social skills yeah being respectful yeah I mean like so I've um but no this doesn't come from kind of school uniform it comes from kind of like I think maybe there's an element of me where like

I don't like men in shorts I don't think men should yeah you should be wearing shorts I don't think like there is a TR an idea of like traditional masculinity that I like I've

played with it in the past and like wore skirts but then that [ __ ] pissed me off because like people were talking about it as if it was some kind of statement I was like I've not seen every band ever exactly

yeah I was like look at yeah it's like any band it's like people wear it because it looks cool it looks cool and I was in Australia you know trousers were hotter yeah that wasn't like making

a statement on gender [ __ ] roles I was wearing a skirt it's 20 22 can we stop also trying to take ownership for

ideas that have already been yeah that kind of like started to be like built into the economy yeah they're like all coffee table books these images yes

guys wearing skirts on stage it's like the oldest [ __ ] it's so like when I get celebrated for stuff like that I just find it like so bored I just find it

reductive yeah yeah yeah especially when we're like sitting in New York City where like all the people that like pioneered that [ __ ] just like died yeah because they were gay yeah and they were

out here and they were living a real can Bohemian lifestyle and now you have people just like wearing a dress and people being like Oh my God that's transformative it's like

did you see that recent tremel thing about Andy Kaufman yeah I mean we could do a whole pod on that Andy Kaufman right yeah of course well I but

to link those to something that you said I wanted to bring back real quick you said people like people not ideas so something that's interesting uh this was kind of my whole beef with the anonymous thing is there's something more

interesting when you an idea coming from a person that context is important there's you can not I don't mean to say like judge

based on their history or their contact whatever but like you see how a person works you see maybe you start to understand how they came to idea why they're even working through that idea like that there's there's like gives an

ambient quality to the idea that's like more transformative that's like less to do with language it's way more than just like reading a paragraph you know what I mean like it's like it coming from an

individual in their own context is actually adds to the idea yeah 100 like like you cut well

it does but then you get into the conversation yeah so that's true but then we haven't had we haven't managed to finish the cultural conversation of

can you separate an artist and their work yeah I I think you can't but that's fine I think it's good and I think it you shouldn't I think it's part of the game yeah it's part of what you figure out I think it shouldn't but I think it

shouldn't affect the way you think about the work or it can affect what you think about the work but it shouldn't change your enjoyment of the work I agree because the context is important

I know I know I try and think about this all the time like because I don't know yeah I don't know if it really if it

really matters because it becomes an objective thing once it's happened right yeah yeah I recently said something like about Michael Jackson and all the like Michael

Jackson heads were like coming at me and like you know saying that I'm a piece of [ __ ] A lot of people told me that he outsold me which I didn't know so it was good to know but

um but yeah like I my problem with Michael Jackson let's use Michael Jackson as an example

in order to like com to separate let's say what happened and like Michael Jackson I have to like go through like my whole childhood

I have to go through like Universal Studios ET yeah the mega drive like it was all part of this one thing people don't want

to go back there and tame it with this idea of you know [ __ ] up [ __ ] with kids yeah and I think that's the problem with a

lot of a lot of these kind of issues is that it depends how like big and important the artist has been to culture yeah it is it kind of is like Kanye

[Music] it's true the thing is yeah the thing is it bums me out with Kanye is that like

we all like he's obviously somebody who is dealing with grief and has mental health issues yeah that's not an excuse to like do

anti-Semitism yeah it's not really is it it's like it gets to a point where it's like I think with Kanye is that this is what we were talking about before I'm all for the

kind of kaufmanesque or Holiness like blurring of boundaries if you can do something in a film why can't you do it in real life like his belief that him and Kim are

like the kind of ultimate piece of art of the past like decades and stuff like that I mean it's a fair argument whatever do you know what I mean but like

there's stuff that like is more important than art like um people are more important than not and

there's kids involved in this artistic expert that's what [ __ ] pisses me off yeah that like the whole thing of like the divorce and all this kind of [ __ ] regardless of all this anti-semitic

recent [ __ ] it's like I hate people I hate artists who like create problems in their life so they can write yeah yeah same thing

yeah yeah I would hate to be a person who did that I just think like getting like if I was a kid and I was being

and I was having like high art concepts of what reality is forced on me by my dad I'd be really scared yeah

yeah because like I just want to know what reality is like when I saw The Truman Show at 10 years old that was enough to [ __ ] me up oh yeah I had to check that my parents

were my parents yeah yeah me too and when you're a kid your imagination is so insane yeah like be an artist be an adult but like let kids be kids yeah like you know that's like you gotta draw

a line like when you're being a conceptual artist like when you're hurting people because it's just not [ __ ] worth it you know yeah Art's not worth hurting

people that's true I agree it's true I asked myself that question with carvey's work all the time too because like his kids and his wife are implicated in that very directly but I enjoy it as anything it's weird but I

enjoyed his entertainment but I also get a lot spiritually out of it so do I yeah I find it inspiring and there's a part of me that's like well there's an element of the kind of

sacrificial like there's some people that are like quite willing to sacrifice themselves for that which

again yeah I don't know how comfortable I am with other people's reality being deeply deeply affected by your art because of how much reverence you give

your art without you becoming just right well I think this goes back to the thing we said earlier it's it's

the idea of you of of a figure as like a God versus a figure who's like a part of like a moving machine it's like this you

as an artist you do you have a role that doesn't you can't think of it as above other roles it's important it's like rare exactly and it's and it's Unique maybe more unique than other jobs you

could have yeah but you are still part of like an oiled machine and you have to like know that that's your place yeah you're part of a society a part of an economy and not a Transcendent being

exactly like they are we are the kind of we are like artists do like civilized society that is kind of their job like

politicians and economic economists don't do that yeah we don't look to politicians to be signposted towards Utopia we look to artists now when that's when you're Bob Dylan and you

realize that and feel that [ __ ] hell that must feel like a a profound more important thing than a window cleaner or this or that but it's not it's a service yeah exactly exactly

it's a self-service and we all have those we all have ceremony we all have sex we all have whatever it may be some people's is creation

but yeah I think that a lot of artists get lost in the kind of I've done it

it's like basically being an [ __ ] um because I was doing something artistic yeah I don't know well I think it might come

from some kind of feeling artists have that they're they should be some kind of leader which I think is a noble way to feel but if you're actually trying to lead people

you're not a messiah you're part you're you're with them you know what I mean it's just like it's just this kind of knowing your role like knowing it's just responsibility it really is yeah responsibility I think

the thing is with me though is that like I do like like high art and stuff like that we do talk about it but I don't come from it yeah yeah right I come from like

Punk like like late Punk like you know like let's say like for me the last real punk bands that refused that was like my favorite battle that's our [ __ ] so

that kind of thing and I came from rooms in Manchester like 30 people in them with punk bands who would like go on stage and say something and it was a bit like well if you've got something to say

get on the stage so there was this element of it's a bit like hippie-ism like post the Civil Rights Movement but Civil Rights Movement happens

loads of people who have dedicated their life to happening that go [ __ ] hell kind of just like emancipated black people like if we can do that for black people we can kind of do that

for everybody yeah they tried the politics didn't quite keep up and hippie-ism started because it was a reaction to this idea of changing the

man we're not going to change society so let's change ourselves yeah but if we all change ourselves then we can change our society I kind of came for an environment like that like let's change

this room and then it's changed another room and it's changed another room do you know what I mean yeah yeah and I don't know why I started talking about that but like that's kind of like where

I came from where this kind of belief that like it can like really make a difference like music you know what I mean

whether it can change the world and when we say that like can it like affect like power like real power

um I don't know because I don't believe that the people I believe that most people who have the ability to acquire

the amount of people that they do are inherently Philistines not people that don't have baskets on the wall not people that don't have like big investments in art people that

aren't really transformed by Art yeah right yeah that's true yeah people that haven't like heard a song or watched a movie and left the movie theater and

being a different person yeah like so I think that like musicians and people on the left and the Liberals and people that come from that world not just liberals but people

artists we're constantly trying to fight the power of the world with beauty and truth and music and empathy and um and

if we don't get that then we go then we try and shame them the powerful don't operate on any of those they don't operate on beauty or

selflessness or Transcendence or shame they are they're purposefully an obfuscation of those ideas in order to acquire as much power as possible so

you know when we've had the sex pistols and we've had like everything and we've had the clash and then we've had like generations of bands and then we've had like the whole 2000s of tens and we've

had you know another tremelion idea where I'm coining that now yeah where um where

we used to expect our artists to be I was gonna bring this up yeah right we used to expect our artists to be cigarette smoking Bohemian Outsiders

yeah and now we expect them to be like liberal academics I don't know when that happened I don't know why that happened yeah it's not really something that I subscribe to but it's something that I

started to subscribe to and I'm not a liberal epidemic academic yeah I'm a cigarette smoking Bohemian Outsider who doesn't really know that much about politics and stuff like that

but I know what I feel yeah you know and I think that those like those feelings are important and the things that move us but they're not the things that change the world

no well I think it's because people look up to artists musicians filmmakers whatever because they do it they admire them in a way that they don't politicians like

politicians like the the the the the world has sort of warmed up to the idea that the people in power are not the people that should be so I feel like it's actually maybe more of an audience reaction of what do what do what do my

actual Heroes think about these ideas well but see that's also this is another argument for cave and all this other stuff we're talking about someone being

very open and candid and just kind of in the in the spotlight in that way it's it's because there you see a politician you don't even people who are not smart

know that that's not like a real person yeah that's not like really who that is and a lot even if you see like pop stars and movie stars they people know the same thing but Trump did this yeah exactly exactly exactly that's what

Trump did that's why I won exactly and also like the one thing that the well the stupid thing that the left did was try and play trumpet his own game because that was the dumbest thing in the world second of all is what Trump

did was everyone wanted to present him as this like gargoyle that had flew down and landed on the kind of political system

that we knew but he wasn't he just basically went to America Hey listen you know all those guys over the past 20 years like on the left and the right who

have been like vote for me and I'll look out for you or vote for me and I'll look out for you my your my you like I'm gonna work in

your best interests yeah no they're [ __ ] not and either am I yeah the only difference is that I'm gonna [ __ ] say it yeah and you can say [ __ ] like that yeah so

that's why people start going out and like saying whatever the [ __ ] they want yeah and it's this kind of idea that like you know like it it hasn't really served

anybody like can you actually like see much difference in like kind of like especially in the UK and kind of like left-wing ideas and right-wing ideas like economically like it's not that much difference yeah there's not much

separate separation like and I think that people are just like super disenfranchised which is why you get brexit which is why you get trumpism because people just like [ __ ] this it

doesn't work yeah like nothing changes like I do this IQ I don't want to queue up yeah let me [ __ ] queue up for

nothing like no food at the end or you know like right [ __ ] but then again that's why I'm not in politics because I don't really have that many in depth

neither did we that's why we never talk about it yeah but I mean I I don't know not like now we're getting real Kumbaya but um I don't know the the hippie thing you're talking about

we change ourselves we change our communities it like seeds out from there I always kind of I always said I'm low-key hippie yeah I I kind of that's the problem with that is that it doesn't

really work because that happened and then the hippie ISM kind of in the again the politics didn't keep up with that and then you got into the 70s when you got all this weird Transcendent

self-help let's become [ __ ] yeah no no it won't affect politics I'm not saying that but it can I don't know we're like finding ways around it but it's in but it's against individualism though

because like even in the late I don't want to say like as soon as consumer capitalism like diagnosed the issue was

individualism yeah oh you guys want to express yourselves as an individual I can help you do that here's a [ __ ] car and a Coke and a vape and a whatever

and like consumer capitalism really like kicked off like the idea of like individual was just sold repackaged sold

repackaged to the point that now like the idea of like communalism is like what what you think about it's like a [ __ ] commune yeah like like I don't

really know what we're talking about when we talk obviously I believe that any kind of change is going to be a Grassroots change where people don't accept things

and they demand changes from the things but it just seems like a lot of that protest and [ __ ] that I've seen over the past couple of years just gets absorbed yeah yeah it does it just gets like absorbed

it doesn't like do it doesn't do anything apart from make people know that they've done it um [Music]

but yeah politics is [ __ ] lame yeah well then maybe we'll jump from here into into your own lane like what what

would like I guess we kind of said this before but like what do you think the future of music is what do you think okay so we were talking about earlier 13 year old kids say you didn't listen to full songs

I think about that all the time I I thought about like we only doing this podcast because it feels good in the attention economy to be releasing things all the time and we can never get that through ART is this like a weird

placeholder yeah honestly yeah um I also believe in the medium itself well yeah of course I mean I'm not not to belittle it but but I don't know what like what it's only

going to get worse it feels like so what what can we even say to like young musicians or young any artist like how to combat this attention economy thing

well I mean it's this thing isn't it it's like short-term pleasure versus long-term satisfaction right so all the incentivization is towards short-term

pleasure but we know where the satisfaction is it's in the walk and the book and the cooking and the [ __ ] yeah making the

album and the making writing the movie it's not in the chocolate bar in the wank and the tweet and the instant dope I mean right we know that so it's a bit like I don't know like as much as I like

as much as yeah okay I have like anecdotes about like kids not appreciating the formal standards that we appreciate like sure but like there's also been like this myth going on for

like 15 years now of like the death of the album which is [ __ ] yeah I agree and it's something that's made up by like low-level people who work in the music industry because like

the truth is like if I make a record or if like big artists make a record like of me or I'm not putting myself next to anybody but like me Lana Taylor yeah

Kendrick whatever if we make a record there's no one in those rooms yeah there's like us and our people right there's no bureaucracy

there's no like suits and stuff like that there's no people that work at labels the people that work at labels which is [ __ ] [ __ ] tons of people by the way yeah they're working on and I

don't I'm not slagging anyone off here right I'm just using examples of like singles like someone's like like Meghan Trainor for example she's a singles artist right yeah not saying she's bad or good or whatever she's a singles

artist there's loads of artists like that that's who people in the music industry work on because they have work to do yeah they have to sell it they have to manufacture it they have to find

songwriters they have to get the thing they have to get the stylist they have to link up the status with the eyes you know I mean it's not it's not this just lit this not this creative expression that's just coming from someone yeah

whereas if you have a creative expression that's coming from someone you just need to facilitate that so the death of the album is [ __ ] tell me an important piece of music in the past 15 years that hasn't been an album yeah

it's true there isn't one there isn't one it's [ __ ] and it's like so I don't think that like

okay maybe there's 13 year olds that like don't give a [ __ ] about songs but there's 16 year olds that want a new Playboy carti record yeah and they don't

just want a song they'd be really really pissed off a 16 year old if Carly or whoever it was trippy or anyone like that came out and they were like by the

way my new record is all 30 seconds and it's just on Tick Tock yeah no that's not what's happening yeah I mean yeah weird

we are taking music into our social media performance and changing how much reverence we give music but still like the music in itself is like

you know still it's still like profound like there's nothing more profound than like on a human experience than like landscape and music yeah like if you're

on if you're at the most beautiful place in the world and there's an orchestra playing behind you doesn't matter like if you've been on Tick Tock before

like you just matters whether like you can connect to R and if you can like I think the form of it is kind of like irrelevant and it's always changing you know like we're always in these kind of moral panics about how we're

communicating like when we started texting right everyone's gonna be [ __ ] my mic TV yeah I had like square eyes too much TV moral Panic about technology that's true

what I'm excited about is figuring out like what's going to happen with that like Douglas Copeland idea where he says that wants a

once a um an art form is superseded is that the right does that what is that right superseded to come yeah yeah yeah it's like taken over by once an art form is

taken over by another it allows the previous wants a form is taken over by another it allows the previous to become an art

form yeah so TV for example exactly TV was the only thing we had yeah so everything had to be half an hour because you had to fit everything in no no this guy's show needs to be on and

this guy's show needs to be on as soon as the internet turns up and starts presenting people with different environments it freed up TV yeah and you immediately Got The Sopranos you

immediately got the wire you immediately got huge big art forms TV became an art form HBO started all these kind of things yeah yeah it was a true art form

it's true once one forms some like takes over another it frees the other one up to become truly Artful

yeah the internet is so expansive I can't quite imagine what like form is going to take over the Internet yeah but I do already see

in like sub stack patreon wherever it may be these interesting places that there is this kind of emergence of like art happening again in these kind

of spaces do you know what I mean like because it is for websites yeah and people are finding spaces to like create kind of interesting niches yeah I

remember like probably early 2010s when I was hearing like oh the reason huge hip-hop albums have are filled with skits and they're so long they're longer than ever now is

because it like racks up streaming and that's so it's like this response to like it's a way to make more money and I was like whoa that's so [ __ ] like this is ruining the form like people are just now incentivized to like put filler on

their albums and I was like but then albums were only the length that they were because they made records and that's how much fit on a record and CDs it was always a response to I don't know

how it was consumed and I was like it's exactly it's this new moral panic and then once I actually took a step back I was like it's all the same [ __ ] it's fine these are like fake cultural conversations it's not actually effective exactly because we're also

having the conversation about how like young people aren't listening to new music now listening to old music I mean the 21st century is weird we've already spoken about Mark Fisher's like the the

like what he really talks about is the 21st Century's like inability to Define itself aesthetically post like 2002 yeah three and we have beef with that huh we

both have beef with that you yeah yeah yeah yeah totally yeah I struggle with it massively I've really lent into it with this whole post-modern [ __ ] it burn it down kind of yeah approach to it but

like um even Amy Winehouse you know the definitive artist of the 2000s

was doing the 60s yeah Adele is kind of doing the 60s the Arctic Monkeys are not now I [ __ ] hate talk about Arctic Monkeys every time I talk about them some [ __ ] Indie press picks up and

starts talking about but I love the ultimong using a good example their first video was like um them playing on like a retro version of

the old gray whistle test it was already retro so like the 20th century is always it's all been retrospective 21st century it's all been retrospective and the 20th

century was defined by its sense of newness of its um kind of infinite newness and the 21st century is being defined by its finite newness like

there's there's so finite in how new things are because the forms are so established yeah I mean I figured this I thought of this

though in like 2000 and five that's why the 1975 like weren't a heavy band right and didn't do that we

were when we first started but like post reviews refused post class draw post all these things I was like no Heavy band is going to come and

change the world again yeah and they haven't yeah I was like if we're a punk band let's be Punk let's do something subversive right let's not sound like

every other [ __ ] band in Manchester well and this is what we had talked before about our problem with this Mark Fisher thing was he didn't take any hip-hop into account at all this is the

argument this is the thing that we spoke and I guess yeah I guess Sophie was not as big before when he died but still she was around you know I mean there's tons of stuff happening that went was completely against everything he was

saying yeah that's true I think the the mark Fisher's short-sightedness is in um just black music kind of Juicy Three Six

Mafia onwards like he wasn't quite aware of of how new that was yeah and again stuff with AJ Cook PC music that whole scene um

again I I think that Sophie's like one of the Geniuses of our time yeah same yeah same with Charlie same with the AG

that whole scene but and this isn't a critique of them this is something that I'm sure that they'd be interested to talk about it's still a retro future concept yeah

definitely yeah yeah yeah because if you asked somebody in 19 when the Jetsons was on TV what do you think musicals sound like in the future

yeah PC music like music that sounds like robots would like yeah right it's still a kind of 20th century idea that's true it's weird like there isn't

this is the thing because pop culture felt unlimited yeah but maybe it has like a life cycle of like what we understand of like pop culture in all its forms yeah because everything has a

cycle I don't want to get like a sixth form again but it capitalism will have a cycle like we had serfdom slavery feudalism socialism like

they all exist and die yeah like all things exist and die and like 20th century pop culture and all of the forms and the constant progression like

it seems like you know like when you put a coin in one of those things and it spins it goes faster and faster and faster and faster and faster and faster it's like we're in this like Super Hyper thing where like we can see the past and

the future so quickly at the same time it's like we can't really and also in the 60s if you were bored you had to go like this

whereas if you're bored now you do this so it's like it's either like your imagination your imagination

or everything that's ever happened in the past yeah yeah because no one has access to the Future you can only kind of dream up a future

yeah so no wonder people were like [ __ ] I need to take some acid and like figure out where to go right yeah because now everyone's like

you heard of grunge I'm like yeah it's like a whole scene of bands in South London that everyone talks about

we just call them have you heard slint yeah yeah I know no it's like it's like it's it's like it's funny because and I feel for these young kids because you see it in like

the neologisms that they use like they're so desperate to have new ideas but to have new ideas we kind of need to have new emotions and we don't right so it's like I saw a really funny tweet

that was like somebody had said can we normalize not sitting in someone

else's toxic energy and leaving to manifest your own well-being and somebody older than them tweeted underneath

do you mean don't hang out with someone you don't like so it's like there's this desperation to present new ideas but all that's happening is we're getting all these new

neologisms yeah getting these new ways of presenting quite traditional ideas and it's happening in like music and stuff like that you know I mean like

yeah it's all like grunt it's all like it's kind of like retro yeah well you were saying about heavy bands yeah because like we both were obsessed with the same

bands that's both what like First lit our fires like I was obsessed with at the drive-in Glassdoor fused and I used to always say like there will never be another live experience like at the drive-in like like nothing could ever

like a band could never do this again but then recently I went to the drain gang show and all these kids were and it was like obviously that's not any it doesn't sound and it has anything in

common with that music sonically but it the the spirit was there and I realized people before me were probably saying that about like the [ __ ] doors or

whatever yeah yeah he goes where he goes am I out of touch and then he goes no no it's the kids yeah

it was just like no I'm I'm you know we're like personally nostalgic for that music but but that energy like it just cycles and it doesn't take the form of the same what we're talking about is

that it was there was it was [ __ ] everywhere yeah when we were younger like I was at like four shows a week yeah yeah me too yeah felt kind of

dangerous yeah exactly like now it's like you go for it's not the same but like yeah sure there's those those kind of like energies happening and I don't [ __ ] know I'm not like a drain gang show

like look at me I'm not oh yeah I mean I felt very old but uh it felt dangerous I was like this is that was how I got into

them shows like um pop in all that yeah yeah they're like that feels like a real thing they're brilliant I mean New York music

scene feels really good now I will say it's like I've I'm quite sure I felt that at the gex show because I would

like well gex is a whole thing yeah yeah I mean it was inspiring to see I'm like all right the kids are all right yeah this is the thing I always feel like that as well because like I do feel

like that you know young people will always I know we're talking about like there's this built-in idea that young people are always at the Forefront of culture and maybe neoliberalism and the economy that we're

in what doesn't allow for that but like kids don't give a [ __ ] about that they're kind of gonna do what they'll figure it out right yeah yeah we figured

out what we nearly did but like they they'll figure it out I think like because we're not gonna hmm you know yeah well kids are kids and like

the Teen Spirit doesn't die that's like a biological thing that happens that's like an experiential human thing that you go through like that angst that excitement that level of like ecstatic

like you know electric energy is just something I become old and right wing like like all of us we're in our 30s we've just we were just

talking about the idea that like and you're [ __ ] 18. you're like hey give me your money and then everyone's like no you let you [ __ ] caps this pig and

then you make a bunch of money and you're like 32. some 18 year olds like give me some of your money like [ __ ] you [ __ ] dumb kids

I'm not giving you money that's the perfect way to boil it down so um no I'm not it's annoying being left wing and then like making money I know tell me

about it well because it's a real conflict it's a real concept I actually I'm like oh I gotta give the money away no I've been buddying up with my tax guy

I'm like yeah tell me about how taxes are good explain it to me because I I I believe that they are just give me a pep talk yeah um

[ __ ] I was gonna say something else I'm not getting into my like um didn't Bowie go through a kind of pseudo like right wingy kind of thing yeah yeah all of that's underrated people related

people under like Susie in the Banshees were like wearing swastikas literally like you just Google it it just was there it was it was weird is it that thing where like people like oh but it's actually Hindu and it's like yeah but I

actually don't know the full story with them but it was kind of like no it was just kind of like it was like it was like Camp okay this is what we're talking about Jamel okay that's a good point so transgress being transgressive right there's these levels of

transgressivism that like I think that that's fine like wearing a swash sticker or whatever [ __ ] whatever but that's like base level

transgression right exactly and that's art that kind of is designed to be censored and the censorship is again

this is tramel the censorship is the reward and the punishment yeah yeah yeah and it's all it's doing is re-establishing the dynamic of order

yeah there is someone who can censor and they will so I will do something so they do to remind where is that what Andy Kaufman did was like take that level of

transcendence to like believability being GG Allen like covering yourself in [ __ ] like so yeah okay it's insane but it's but it's base level

transgressive what do you do I mean what do you think of GG on what do I think of GiGi Allen I I'm very curious because everyone like everyone I know still thinks he's sick I would never I I could

I can't stand I don't I mean it's like I get it but get but dude this is person versus R yeah like I think people

like to live vicariously to other people so people like the idea that like GiGi Allen is being that part of us that we never got to kind of truly yeah yeah

right but he's kind of also just like a [ __ ] Maniac yeah I mean that's kind of what that's why I was never interested in him

I just think that like who's yucky yeah exactly bathroom [ __ ] come on come on man yeah exactly poo on

me anything about it I know it's coolest [ __ ] then poo yeah definitely right yeah because I like my punk to be a bit sexy yeah and when you start pooing on each

other that's not cool well that's why you guys like refuse but then again that's [ __ ] now look how I dress yeah actually you can't see yes right now but he's in the full Catholic Schoolboy like

yeah he's fully ready to go when I saw him hanging upside down in that one shot which I do in the People video Yeah change my [ __ ] life same I've got an

MTV too yeah the the VHS okay I got mtv2 VHS and it had days of the Phoenix by AFI on it it had like it had um I think it had used for glue rival schools one

of my all-time favorites Beyond oh I've got something to show you I've got a Polaroid camera refused polar camera well um no a rival school is probably a camera no but that [ __ ] [ __ ] changed my life

because that was like that uniformed weird kind of like kind of fascist fashy but obviously not like that's why I love refused it like

there's some bands that are so legit they couldn't even stay together because they were so political yeah yeah yeah that's [ __ ] cool yeah when you watch that documentary

and it's that you can find it on YouTube it's on Swedish but there's that last scene where they played their last show and they know they're breaking up

and they end with rather be dead and the cop storm the show and they shut it down and the whole audience who are like almost in tears are just screaming at

the cops I'd Rather Be Alive I'd rather be alive and stopping them from getting to the stage by screaming I'd rather be like I mean it makes me [ __ ] emotional now so yeah it's sick like

that is what changed me and that's what I'm that's what kind of pushed me to do what I want to do yeah I just realized that that had been done perfectly yeah totally so I

just couldn't copy it's the Manchester thing you had all these bands that completely changed everything and then post Oasis everyone was like where's the next Oasis it's like well there's not good yeah the

next Oasis doesn't sound like a waste it doesn't sound like a waste yes I'm not saying that's us but like you know it's like we had to do something different because that's what like Manchester is you know that's why I'm interested in

New York because like it's gonna happen again pretty soon I mean I know it's been happening in like certain ways no it's New York feels really good right now it really does I have to say it

always gives you something new it's a roller coaster yeah that that's just like that was I mean I'm sure I could think of earlier examples because I was obviously very obsessed with music at the time but yeah would go to my

Grandmom's house after school because she lived down the street to wait for my parents to come get me she had mtv2 and I didn't so go watch M22 because I was obsessed with new metal I was like

listening to Limp Bizkit and it was all like new metal [ __ ] and it was all you know it was like Mud Vein and like slip knot and masks and it was being like scary and that music is sick don't get

me wrong but um it was like it was like objectively scary and then refused came on and it was just like these guys and like this sweater uniform and they like looked so

cool but it was it honestly scared me way more I was like this is the craziest thing I've ever seen vampiric it's truly chaotic yeah not contrived and and it just like even his voice was scarier to

me than like these guttural satanic growls or the other way is the it's not really weird but like

what's interesting and like growing up and being so part of like music culture from when you're a kid there's lots of um

solo artists now won't name names right there's lots of solo artists now that are referencing pop punk yeah oh yeah

all the time right and emo right now by the time like my chem put out black Barrette parade I think I was like 20 years old yeah exactly I was that was

exactly yeah that was not cursive yeah people would like send me memes of that I had no idea what it was referencing and I was like that was way after my time I didn't that was we we were gone by that point you know

so but Billy eilish and all these kids that's what that was for these people so you have like these some not so young artists

kind of referencing this uh very overtly and it's funny because they'll like reference the Sex Pistols but then they'll reference Good

Charlotte yeah then they'll reference Avril Lavigne and it's it's interesting because it's almost like they're not aware that

this alternative expression that they're expressing as their alternative influence was a hyper commercialized yeah yeah

version of what alternative country culture had become like by that point that was pop music

um so like this new like alternative trappings of What alternative is it's kind of weird it's all pink also which is strange yeah I don't know what

is it was it pink I know why is it pink but um it's very La that's a very L.A

yeah yeah that's what it is and lar is lar unless you're like from LA and J did and Phoebe and someone like that who like literally or Joan Didion yeah you

know like but then there's like L.A

L.A I don't know if I can do la man we're glad you're in New York but it's like where do you live because it's a bit like everyone's like oh but I only live here because it's like not close it's

like what do you want to be close to the Beverly Center yeah there isn't [ __ ] anything there

yeah and people's houses yeah and like one bit called Silver Lake where you can walk but the rest is a car yeah just [ __ ] like

pink dogs and like there's no the news isn't on anywhere yeah yeah you're going to the bank in like London New York we have the news on like [ __ ] like that you

know they don't have the news on I don't know why I'm [ __ ] I know hey um because it makes me [ __ ] mental I'm from Manchester I don't like waking up on the 5th of November and the

weather being like hi yeah yeah [ __ ] off yeah it's also just like I mean obviously saying La is isolated it's what everyone says of course but I do

see in music in La I feel like everyone it's the the same kind of group in group of producers and songwriters just kind of influencing each other

there's not really like a cultural uh Center that's always happened is that Laurel Canyon yeah like that at the moment it's the Dijon Phoebe Bridges uh

Christian Lee Hudson kind of like group um I think that La is weird because it's so isolated I think it's with LA right is that

you go to meetings and you meet with people and you make plans whereas we were in a bar we like got half cut we went and got some dinner we came here what that is late now but we're doing

the Pod late we're gonna go outside we bumped into your friend before yeah we'll walk down to like the bar and we'll meet people and there's a collaborative kind of yeah exactly

exactly in L.A you drive somewhere so you go to the place no boo in [ __ ] Malibu and then you see someone that you know and you go over and you go hey how

you doing are you gonna go and then you go we should meet and you go yeah let's do it like and it's obviously I'm in my car and you're like you don't go let's

go with oh sorry you go like it's coming me yeah there isn't this collaborative kind of thing exactly that's the best part of New York you just like Bop around exactly you absorb other people you go somewhere else yes you said it

was fluid which is fluid and it has like this flinner about it which is a pretentious word but still it does it's like you can walk around and be inspired whereas Ellie there isn't a pavement

anything died like trying to get some cigs yeah I always go to that stretch and silver like just to feel like I'm in New York downtown I'm like this is I can do this I try to like cross the street

and I'm like running for my life it's insane it's it's like it it's also Sean Ryder has that great quote which is it

it's 60 suburbs like in search of a city like there's no City yeah Jeremy who lives in Midtown who's like my friend from years who's the first so the first label we have assigned to is yeah yeah

we signed to vagrant records as like kind of like an email band really it's the first label that wanted to sign us but Jeremy moved to LA from New York and he's back now and he described living in

La as like waking up to the most beautiful woman you've ever met in your world in your life every morning that you have nothing in common yeah right

you know yeah yeah it's a bit like that it's so beautiful but I just don't I can't yeah yeah it just doesn't work yeah no it's like um I like working out there because people get [ __ ] [ __ ]

done yeah yeah that's true it's really really good and it's not so like unionized and intense and like London like trying to get people to work past one o'clock is a [ __ ] nightmare yeah so

um but yeah no I I don't think I could live in LA because it's too you get too lonely I think you gotta come here yeah New York looks good on you yeah I think New York

does does feel good on me the weather's brutal if you love a season in New York I love a season yeah you get like a proper spring

a brutal winter a brutal summer a brutal summer but that's also sick well I was here with you guys in the winter and I completely underestimated and walked home from the bar and nearly died

it's not too bad out tonight yeah speaking of last time you were here yeah before I forget what happened to that song I played Oregon on oh so that nearly became

the extra track for a Japanese release but I'm working on this me and Jack started working on this like solo project of mine me and George are kind of trying to empower each other at the moment I think because there's a certain element of

like code a pattern not like codependency but like we've been together for 20 years yeah it's a long time you know and like everything we've ever done has been the

1975 and and George you know I suppose as we've gotten older over the past couple of years like we've made different place friends in different places and we have like

different creative relationships we've always spoken about like making our own kind of solo projects that are under the umbrella of the 75 yeah but I think honestly we've both been scared of that

me being scared of George going off and doing his thing and me being scared of me going off and doing my thing and I think that our fans have almost been saying like before we come back and do like another

studio record which has to be [ __ ] mental after this one really in its own way yeah yeah yeah we need to kind of do that so that that was a really deep weird

song you like droning out yeah Style on the on the organ yeah I loved I I've still got that song what was that how did it go again cool yeah we were electrically yeah we're gonna do the Evo [ __ ] yeah yeah

yeah that's that's gonna so I'm in February I'm gonna I'm gonna be here for a little bit I'm gonna be nla for a little bit starting on a

a solo record everyone's thinking that I'm being a bit like prolific but I finished this record in February yeah yeah yeah November like what am I supposed to do like just pick my

ass I mean we've had a lot to do like you know like we've been making a bunch of [ __ ] but like and once the show's up and running then

I I just want to make another record um because it's because that's like what I do I think that like I don't know like

because we talk about art and like why we do it and like what's the point and then like Gallow archiving [ __ ] and putting [ __ ] away and putting it away and

like we don't make 75 records like music accumulates and then we make records out of that music so like we're always gonna make music I

think like this idea that like that becomes saying hey I'm a fixture now I'm always going to be around kind of like makes you boring and like yeah yeah I mean but

that's not the case like I'm I didn't get a job I didn't want to get a job so I could make music and now I make money from making music

so all that does is give me free time to make more music yeah yeah all I was ever doing yeah exactly and also Gallo said this too you know big shouts together

we're essentially the Gallow podcast yeah exactly don't be racist people but shouts together um he said something along the lines of you know if you have a plan you've

already [ __ ] it up so and in the sense of that you're saying where it's like oh you shouldn't be thinking about like how being unsexy the way exactly plotting out some kind of

intellectual I always use that thing Lynch quote is that how do you direct movies I read the script first thing I think about I write it down then I go film it yeah I don't over intellectualize it if every good idea I

had I was like that's a good idea and then went wait why yeah I would never do you're [ __ ] good yeah you're [ __ ] like and it's your instinct like trust your insta your art is your instinct Gallows art is his

Instinct Lynch's art is his Instinct it's not something that they should even maybe describe perfectly or be able to describe personally because it's kind of

like this ephemeral thing that happens like it's um it's it's all like I don't know I love all Gallows and didions and people who

are just there for the story or there for the art you know what I mean like it's um it's inspiring I mean I've thought about doing that a

couple of times I could do something even if I admitted I was gonna do it remember when like you know Joaquin Phoenix started doing his yeah yeah I grew a beard and went a bit crazy

um that's next well the idea of like what is a character is not next it's just like

yeah who I the the lines of who I am are becoming so like kind of constructed like it right why not play with that idea yeah I don't know

what that means that sounds like pretentious and performative but I'd like to experiment that for me yeah yeah I don't know who I am right well I don't know what I can do and some of the ideas

and then placing ideas in the context of the people who said it's kind of like placing these characters in the context of the artist who's performing them it's not just you know some acting obviously is just acting and has nothing to do

with the person but that's also maybe that's not even true because an actor is drawing on their experience yeah do you know many actors yeah actors are [ __ ]

weird yeah they're really weird always get really where male actors are weird female actors tend to be well the female actors I know are kind of okay some of the some of the male actors I know are

like totally down to earth and cool yeah and some of them are just the most insecure people I've ever met in the line yeah one of my theories about this is that if you're a male actor you

become known for your characters yeah not for who you are yeah you'll always see like an actor who you think is cool in the thing and then you'll see a photo of them and they'll be like a Rings guy

yeah or like a scarves guy yeah why because there's this like need for self-expression that comes out yeah yeah yeah and I think there must be an element that I've had a couple of drinks

now there must be an element of like cockery going on oh for sure because if there's some like nerdy weird guy who like looks like me or whatever who's like writing

who you are and you're like some big [ __ ] sick movie star and you go out and being known for like the creative yeah you must be like who the [ __ ] am I

you're right yeah so that's why I like making music yeah and another thing we spoke about which is a good thing to talk about on the pod is one of the reasons that I appreciate

music so much now is that it's that is the choice involved in it because we were talking about these hierarchies of art right and this stemmed from my conversation with I can't remember who

it was but we basically kind of decided that like the first tier primary tier of of R is architecture food and fashion I don't

want it to be but it is you always need to be eating you always need to be sheltered and you always need to be wearing clothes they're essential right and they're all art forms so they are

primary the secondary art forms are literature music painting like all of the other things visual kind of Arts or whatever it may be conceptual Arts

that doesn't subservient your music it it's just it just means that every time someone's consuming your art it's by choice yeah which is beautiful yeah no one's running to my music in a storm

yeah I mean There's no practical means to my music yeah I mean which is which is kind of nice but um

but it's also made me not um be I love clothes I'm not interested in fashion but I don't demonize fashion

it's very easy to demonize it as superficial and this and that but um go outside without any fashion

you get arrested yeah go outside without any music you'd be fine you know so there's an argument that it's more important sometimes

so I don't [ __ ] know um well another cool art form is set design

and so you're playing at Madison Square Garden and what what does the set look like well

I'll take we'll we'll kind of we'll do some like that's where we cut okay wait Zach no because it's a good point because it's funny if you say where's you cut

then you cut because there is a element to everything that we're doing yeah yeah yeah yeah so like I'm not that interested in kind of

I I I'm just more interested in like [ __ ] with these forms a little bit so like the 975 live has become a very well established form yeah it's like this

neon dream world and like I'm interested in set design we're interested in film and I wanted to kind of make something

that felt more Cinema kind of more cinematic and like it's difficult to like serve the purpose of an arena show because it's not a movie if you build a set the reason a set

works at a theater is because you have narrative you have characters you have story so what I'm trying to do you throw me my sweatshirt where is my

sweatshirt so what I'm trying to do is something kind of in the middle it'll still be like a music show but I suppose the best

way to describe it is that like our last show was like a [ __ ] Adam Curtis documentary like with me shouting in front of it it was like outward yeah it was very

outward like and it didn't need a ceiling yeah you could have taken that show and put it on a [ __ ] Iceberg reading Festival Madison Square Garden it was like close account encounters it

like landed that was it so when we made this record it was way more like intimate and inward like those ideas

were presenting were presented to me like outward inward so I started thinking like okay what does that mean then like

outside inside so I'll take you to what it is

which is inside which used to be outside I'll cut it like this and this is set design here it is that's what it is Jesus Christ dude

this is that desire this is the this is what's been keeping me up at night for a long time because it's not let's go see it let's go see it so

yeah and we just did a we just I just played you guys the show and it's not finished then it got insane he it got insane we were just waiting for the special films

demeanor but I think I'm oh no let's go to the right of the stage I'm sorry I'm sorry um so and you build we can stop I built all this my bad we can stop here for a second one of the cool things is like

[ __ ] the instead of using we've always used video right yeah so that's been a PR like video as the primary light source you always get like a silhouette in that

way it's a way of doing like the what they call eye mag like really really bright so it's kind of quite a dark show on the iMac but right

we've done the bright show yeah like this is way more like we wanted to have it kind of quite like E.T like Spielberg you know yeah I was getting major Spielberg I didn't want to do like

Duffer Brothers kind of no but I wouldn't have avoided it I wanted to do like because it didn't I didn't and I didn't want to do Nostalgia porn yeah but in the way that the show the last show was very outward this had to be inward so we kind of just built this

house now it's half like just a white house for the second half and then the front half of the show well I'll show you when we walk up yeah

yeah it is like it's pretty warm well that's because we're using fresnel lighting so when you do the white on white it feels very let's say clinical

right it's cool but it feels cold exactly like whereas this feels warm but that's because we're using a lot see a lot of this is all like fresnel so we're

we're using the white to like bounce off but for example this is a hybrid of the well let's sit in here yeah we can see I'm just gonna get them

I'm gonna get I'm gonna get you looking good sit down okay yeah Curtis sit or can you not long enough we need to yeah you need to follow around yeah we're I think we're good up here

beautiful we always need a couch to pod yeah you need a couch bud wow and then you can put that on the floor jack and you're good well you can just watch this speaking of

the warm um I don't know if we want to give all the secrets away but I'm talking about our mutual references yeah why not yeah why not

the projections look great as a light source you're right um yeah it's obviously very Gregory krudson who we both love

that was kind of the what's the what's the the Yola tengo and then nothing turned itself inside out one of the great album covers one of the great album covers it's that

so what the Spielberg thing I always found was like in those movies or even in that era of movies like obviously I'm not from American Suburbia but like that is a

kind of aesthetic was right you know the massive part of my child did so what those movies always had was like it was always based around family yeah so it was like you know ET is based on

like kids or whatever yeah and it felt like there was always like an internal domestic Suburbia witness to this kind of Otherworldly

thing outside right so like the windows that we have that's where like the color comes from and that's where like the we have like car lights we have you know

those kind of like exactly it's it's it's in between that kind of um that kind of Cinema and like you were

saying kind of like emo a bit yeah it's kind of like an emo house yeah that's what I'm saying it reminds me of the room's too cold early November being like

you know the people who hit me up the most are like people from obscure my bands that we would freely yeah right like that because they're stoked that you you took it there well thank you and

you're like remembering them I think we honor it in a good way yeah because it's a [Laughter]

sure do man no this is what I was about to say Emo's a feeling bro it is we have to give big shouts to where we are right now this is what I

mean we're in Pennsylvania right now Pennsylvania Lancaster Pennsylvania yes is gonna go down I think especially amongst us there's a very iconic Place

absolutely this place is like how do we explain it to her it's a compound of like mock Arenas and tour support yeah it's basically the guy

who like owns some billionaire guy who like owns like the biggest PA company was like right I need a place where like Beyonce could live yeah yeah right his his version of taste is amazing yeah

when I checked in the receptionist had guitar pick earrings I was like this is mine the trash can holes are guitar yeah dude my bathroom door is a flight case

right yeah that's so that's like my favorite so sick also the um the restaurant hardcock hotels and [ __ ] yeah Hard Rock Cafe Planet

Hollywood yeah the restaurant's called per diems I mean [ __ ] so sick and it's in our home state which feels feels like a return even though we never knew this place yeah from Pennsylvania

we're from Suburban Pennsylvania are you really yeah like less than an hour from here you're bringing us to a place in our state that we've never even heard of yeah so where are you from uh like west of Philly suburbs because you guys that

went to high school together we did I I grew up down like in Philly and then moved out to the suburbs and Curtis and I are both kind of suburbs kids oh well that makes a lot of sense yeah yeah that's what we're so about it so the

yellow Tango references yes really hit home for us for sure so when did you move to New York um 2009 oh right okay so it's been a minute

we talked if we spoke about girls before how good how well that delineated that time in New York the show the show oh of course oh yeah

of course we were talking to we were talking to Jack before and then yeah yeah yeah yeah but like um that just made me think like that time in New York

was a real yeah interesting time and the the art and stuff the I think it's the first season when they go to the warehouse party just as we were around for that that is

the most accurate portrayal it's so accurate yeah and the one where the the the the part you were like who's like the really basic girl good

morning yeah money she like him so hot so hot in the most annoying way um my Galaxy brain takers that they're all

really hot I mean they're all over their own way yeah I mean but yeah no the and you know the the episode where she like sings and it's really embarrassing yes that kind of party yeah yeah that was

such a that was such a time she's doing like a tweet cover of harder better faster stronger but like Kanye is stronger it's so [ __ ] time

if I was Kanye by the way I wouldn't have said any of that I just wouldn't have said it yeah exactly

big shouts to Jews big shouts Community yeah the Jewish media shouts yeah media specifically so is there anything else you want to

tell us about this set design it's great it's like it's kind of what's interesting about this is that what I wanted to build was something that was a bit more malleable than our last show now this gets into a bit of a technical

conversation but for example when you're like our last show was like [ __ ] like an Adam Curtis documentary like I say it was just like lots of information and basically when you do that with music

you have to do this thing called time coding yeah so like all of the music is like Linked UP yeah so if you want to like add a song you essentially have to like create this whole computer program

and all that kind of [ __ ] and I was like listen I want the the set to be more like yeah yeah to feel more like a band playing right right so it is it's pretty

much like all live now there's no track yeah and that's why it's it's not as like in your face as a show but I have to like trust that we're good

enough as a band to like do that you know what I mean because it almost feels like I've done the whole like I could do nothing and have that last year that's true you're right I could like yeah nothing and just like Let It

Be yeah it didn't sound like there was a lot of tracking there's pretty much none like we because we just felt like well back in the day you didn't have track right right you couldn't just like play

the stems of your album down the PA so we just thought like let's not do that so we've got like more musicians and um but I just wanted it to feel like

I'm always more like we love shows right but I'm always more like moved at theater yeah and obviously you don't want to be pretentious and like try and make like a

a [ __ ] gig what it is really like a piece of theater but like you want to take it to that place where it borderlines kind of like being like a real

moment where you're in the room and something that's quite conceptual yeah yeah you know like and so that's why it's splitting two harbes the first half is like

we kind of don't even address the audience as that right and that's when it's like just about the house yeah and then the second half which has the bit in the middle that you guys saw ends up

with like I think this sofa stays but like all of the warmth right so like what I was going to say before this in the first half we're gonna have like tongue and groove do you know what I

mean like that like that kind of yeah you know that like wood paneling yeah so that's going to be wood panel that would that puddle would will be wood paneled the bounce back of white that you get from this at the moment is like really

extreme yeah so when you take that off for the second half it's almost like it's big enough reveal when everything just goes white and then we come out in all black and we just do like Greatest

Hits yeah and it's like we're a [ __ ] rock band and I can be very forward with the audience yeah I love this yeah do we we said earlier November didn't mention saves the day that's what just remind me

of at your funeral at your funeral but also like the house is an emo yeah thing you know Brandon but also it's reminding me like all these Grill cloths and like the warm

[ __ ] or my what's that Replacements video where they just kick the speaker at the end oh god um is that pastors of young yeah it might be better yeah

yeah okay yeah maybe the replacement well The Replacements have been you like they used a replacement song in like Adventureland right that this has an

Adventure Land yeah yeah definitely that's a good movie actually it kind of is yeah and now I look back on it yeah at the time I think it was like oh it has a great line in it where he

says like someone's ass is like the platonic ideal yeah um yeah no that that yeah it's so it's like this kind of um I just what I didn't want to do was

anything like stranger things anything like [ __ ] um just Nostalgia porn yeah right I didn't want like a Mega Drive yeah yeah it actually doesn't feel that sci-fi

despite all the the TV stuff and everything struck a great balance here well because the thing you're talking about like the outside world versus inside world I think another part of all these kind of references are is this

this kind of like this is this is a lynchian thing yeah but this you're inside a home something that's warm and comfortable and on the surface

about family and comfort and safety so there's this weird kind of angst like under the surface internal World thing that's happening that which is which is

totally the vibe I get from this kind of Red Hill blue pill thing yeah I mean well yeah for the audience as well there's a whole kind of narrative of me becoming I'd say black pill black yeah I'd say I become black pilled throughout

the show because I don't have a political identity that I'm willing to establish and it feels white pilled to me though look it's white pill by the end which I

guess we'll see next yeah yeah it's like but to go with your point it's a bit like when um what when Hitchens went to [ __ ] North Korea and he said I'm not gonna

reference George Orwell yeah I was like when I make the show I'm not gonna reference David Lynn right yeah the first thing that I've done yeah because the truth is I'm doing all this

email it's David yeah of course but that's like not mentioning American football first it's somehow we're missing the obviously but it's very it's that

there's a discomfort in the in this show and there's a discomfort in Suburbia and there's a lot of [ __ ] that goes on behind those closed doors and family Dynamics are weird and people are weird and what happens inside is very

different to what happens outside right I think like Lynch would like really explores the kind of like oddness of that and then yeah I think that like

there is this it's kind of like my house so so to to continue as well like I also don't know because the show will

start then some cool [ __ ] will happen some [ __ ] won't work one time I'll like hit a mark and then I'll be like right well we need to do this there's a staircase up there that

at the moment is just a Staircase to Nowhere but eventually we're gonna have uh well I would yeah I'll say it okay dude this won't come out this show will have happened already yeah the American

chapter will do but the UK show well I'm trying okay what I want to do is basically yeah that's not going to be a Staircase to Nowhere there needs to be a staircase to somewhere but at the moment it's a

staircase to somewhere yes that goes to so much for first one second it's my solo record is it yeah staircase the [ __ ] somewhere no my solo John my solo records called

do you have anywhere yeah ladies boy nice I thought that was quite good yeah yeah it's a good book from back in the day called ladies man well this is what I was talking about it's a good seven

because I'm not I'm not there's also death for ladies man yeah because um I'm not fully grown yeah but I'm I'm slinking you're definitely slinking I'm thinking right can we talk about your

dance moves a little bit I've been nothing but Slinky to you guys wait I don't want to talk about my dance moves oh yeah let's do that just inspo I was just I was I was digging the James

Brown man it is it is just James Brown I think James Brown is the most goat guy of all time like we could get into James Brown though George could [ __ ] get into James Brown because then we start talking

about yeah talking about James talking about the vamp James Brown James Brown the god there you go the vamp so you know Get on

Up you have a distinctive thing I I do I think it's a helian style honestly helium style yeah you know what it is it's this like dyslexic Funk thing it's like an acknowledgment of how white I am

yeah whilst I'm kind of like getting into it so I think that I'm because I've always been into like white music that's inspired by black music that's done by white people yeah white like yeah

Talking Heads gang of four yeah like [ __ ] that's like dyslexically funky yeah so I think that I move in between like I wanted to be a dancer when I was younger well before like culture hit me and I

was like yeah seven or eight like that was what I did and that's what I enjoyed and I kind of wanted to be a dancer and then and I didn't but but so yeah like I like

I I think it's fun to like Funk around yeah but you it's it's more uh fluid than a David Byrne thing yeah but he's actually autistic right so I think that

comes well I mean again oh for sure 100 yeah sorry is that no no no no I think probably yeah oh do you know do you know that tell

that story tell me yeah it was he was like story in the world the Eno and burn were walking through the village I guess and got mugged by a group of like 10 people or something and you know it was like it was really scary I actually

thought I was gonna die it was actually really scary and I saw burned as being dragged into the bushes and he was just going uh-oh he's like he's a genuine eccentric he

just screamed oh yeah I can hear it perfectly too um but I mean also refused is that good oh yeah it's clearly his moves yeah I said well what's he called Dennis

yeah I mean Tobias like if we're gonna do shouts yeah bro you're the goat come up here come up here just for one

minute it's worth it so like Tobias about when I was like 25 yeah I was obsessed with Nine Inch Nails and I wanted to do something they had

this one song they have a song called The Great Destroyer yeah okay so they were just like all backlit and static like all unsynthesizers yeah and I was

like that's the [ __ ] coolest thing I've ever seen yeah like on MDMA [ __ ] Arcade Fire with a headlining reading or something and I met so then I met this

guy Tobias right now before he comes in Tobias here he comes this outfit yeah I was checking it out yeah for 10 years it's a [ __ ] blast up outfit here take a mic

there's something Trent said about this is my best friend and long longest running collaborator Tobias who's making

it all happen makes it all all [ __ ] happen so Tobias I met and I believed in when I was 25.

and we met in some juice bar in Los Angeles yep and you were dressed like that yeah and then the next day I met you again and you were dressed like that

yeah and then for the next 10 years every single day I've seen you wear a black waistcoat yeah a black shirt yeah a pair of black

jeans yeah your your boots until they break yeah these are new for you really yeah and this jacket your Captain's jacket that's now

that's gonna have to get fixed soon yeah so that's what I like on my team yeah people who don't even want to make choices of how they dress yeah they just wanna

that's the classic uh that's the Steve Jobs [ __ ] I was just trying to explain I have enough choices to make you have enough choices to make I was just trying to explain well I wasn't trying to explain I was

kind of like talking about my perspective of the show and one of the things that I haven't spoken about is how I think that this is the first time that we've chat this is the time that

we've challenged each other the most because absolutely every album musically has been very a very obvious different

direction yeah whereas our show has always been me and you distilling what was great about the previous show making it bigger and better and we were

always in this kind of video as primary light source world yeah and I think that we realized that we've got to a place now where

bro we got [ __ ] sword like yeah we won the sword like we won the sword we won the sword there's this whole thing there's this thing called the Knights of Illumination and it goes back like 500

years or something [Laughter] goes back a long time it's from like people who used to like light churches and [ __ ] like that the best lighting

team of whatever year they when you win this award you get like a sword so we got this no for sure so it's kind of like we wanted to do something

different and I think that you had an idea for a show that was like this white this white clinical thing and I had an idea for a show and then we kind of met in the middle I mean I've never seen

anything like this I really haven't no it's really unique yeah I guess like um from the start we've always

used the frame haven't we yeah and I've always felt like that frame that you have made your own has always kind of been

that the ultimate frame for the art that you make and that's how we've built the shows as well but and it went from the the frames behind you with the aerial

projections volumetric projections um where we also used the black and white concept I guess and they became the columns or the space

between the frames became the columns and for the next tour The Space Between The Columns became the boxes or the Cubes but we still had the frame

on stage I guess it's the first one we don't well we have the door we have the door frame that's the only thing we've used that's a kind of piece of 1975 iconography but we've just had to rely on like performance more

a lot yeah but this guy these guys like yeah I mean they work okay sleep I mean look you're a vampire the best moment because you look like a vampire my

favorite you moment ever favorite you moment ever was uh we were in a house party everyone's like super [ __ ] up everyone was too [ __ ] up you were dressed like that [ __ ] right

where's the camera the things like over here phone is over here you were sleeping like this on the sofa like this [Laughter]

oh I sleep your phone rang you went [Laughter] I'm coming and you [ __ ] left the room

about six a.m and I was like that guy is a vampire so this is No No Nonsense that's how you got to be yeah the vampiric genius vampire genius

huge shots so we have to wrap up in 30 seconds according to her Josh Josh according to he's I thought I was the [ __ ] boss yeah what come on we got a

show to make yeah yeah well if you want to hang you can see us making more of the show so now we have to design the second half right yep which is a difference the rock and roll a bit the Dirtbag bits

and we should bring it to where the video is about to go because I think the orange couch might look quite good okay the orange couch on the stage the orange couch for MSG

could be an incorporation yeah they they have a couch they have this couch I'll show you the cow yeah let's take a look we're at the Garden baby we're at

[ __ ] Madison Square Garden I know we said when we ended the last segment that there was going to be an orange couch on the stage oh yeah he wouldn't let us bring the orange couch that's not happening but the union won't even let

us turn this [ __ ] music off yeah Union will let us have the after party either I can't believe that you got it didn't expect that oh no we did that's probably a good place to start we didn't

realize or at least I didn't realize just quite how famous you really are thank you yeah no how does it feel that's really sweet of you to say it's what every teenage boys dream you feel it you made it well because we're having

a Tick-Tock moment right now which is why the guest list has gone so crazy I think I think it's just tick tockers what song right um the one bit of music that doesn't have me in it so like there's this

female vocal on the record everyone's like we love that bit but like [ __ ] the rest of it um no it's yes it's crazy man second last time we played here we were like

cult big but now we're more like big like kind of just big yeah big I think yeah so um so yeah it's it's and Bert has already now gotten out because he did the first couple shows of the tour

a whole [ __ ] insane the show is yeah it's kind of um it's it I don't know what you know what where all Olympus you are for everyone who makes we want to

make special films yeah exactly so um it's like it's it's I think that we've always [ __ ] tried to [ __ ] with the form of like a rock show because like yeah bands are boring right yeah it's like the whole

thing so this this is like us I suppose taking it to as far as we can in regards to what like a pop show we can do you know I mean the

first half's quite conceptual um you'll get to see all the [ __ ] like Alpha dick touching meat eating [ __ ] yeah tonight which would be cool how did the first few shows go it was

good I mean those moments kind of went viral out of context yeah yeah which was good marketing for the show I'm just literally sat there like jacking off I knew the roof moment would go off yeah

yeah I saw the meme of like he doesn't have one song it's like such a good such a goal yeah he doesn't they always talk like they're black and

it's always white he ain't got one song no I didn't go I actually do have lots of stuff I mean my career is pretty much like my obsession

with my dick yeah in a kind of in a literal in a art UA right this is just a natural conclusion yeah yeah this is Joe we're all just making memes at the end of the day yeah exactly yeah but we're

streaming this live on like yeah Amazon yeah Amazon yeah I don't know I know they're still streaming the Kyrie documentary so I'm not sure but I don't

know big shout outs to Amazon yeah big shout out to Amazon how do you I don't know I don't know who I can give big shouts anymore it's a tough time I don't know if that's okay like when I

just but I said okay well this has been a really fun Journey Maddie thank you for bringing us honestly guys everything I I'm I'm uh I'm ahead I'm a packer and um

it's been really fun of a lot more you turned our life into a special film yeah last month or so you had a good fun yeah it's been really good I mean tonight's gonna be the tonight is going to be the special film if we cut to tonight then

that's probably oh that's true yeah Jordan can you get some footage at the party tonight when it gets shut down at like 10 15. yeah I mean if it's four blocks from here like literally the whole GA is just gonna try to get there

this will come out a week from now so well this is everyone will know what what happened well a lot of people who come early when the show's still happening it starts are probably just gonna leave maybe it'll I

don't know maybe it'll be okay they're gonna people are gonna realize there's no chance of getting in and then it's gonna be fine yeah I got off on the chaos I really yeah exactly that's just that you must do you're filming Madison Square Garden let's do it special film time yeah yeah

let's just make a lot make your life like that right an insane heat life brought to you by the iron insane big shouts thank you

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