The physics of startup sales | w/ Rob Snyder

Well, Rob, round seven, something something like that. Something

>> like that. Yeah, something like I got I got someone reaching out and they're like, "Listen, I I think they were making a joke where they're like, I'm I'm a proud one of your 78 subscribers

or listeners to this and they thought they were making a joke and I was like, "Holy cow, we have 78 listeners. That's

the greatest thing ever."

>> Right. Yeah. 78 accidental uh listeners.

It's, you know, people that are trying to like learn language. Um, and so like us rambling for, you know, indefinite amounts of times is like really helpful for that. Um,

for that. Um, >> people that accidentally had us lined up on their like YouTube autoplay, it just like is constantly rolling through videos.

>> Exactly. Yeah, they walked away a long time ago, but uh but we'll take the we'll take the stats. It feels good.

>> Yeah, that's right. Joe Rogan's racking up like 38 trillion views a day. We're

at 108 and we're like we totally have nailed this podcasting thing.

>> Yeah, we got it. If if anyone needs notes, I'm happy to happy to share my wisdom.

>> Yeah, the podcasting prowess and expertise. U

dude, I'm so pumped about today's conversation. I this is I think my

conversation. I this is I think my original you know red red pill mindbending whatever moment with the things that

with your approach has been around the difference between demand and supply and the way that you articulate it in this blog post. It's called the physics of

blog post. It's called the physics of sales and 11 signs that you got it backwards. like uh not just me. I I know

backwards. like uh not just me. I I know it's not just me because I also see other uh founders that when they're communicating with you, they're like, "This totally changed everything about

how I thought about approaching sales.

It makes business more fun." Like it it makes it way less just like mental slog being dragged through the mud of sales and uh much more dynamic and it makes so

much more sense. So, I I'm pumped about like about jumping into this one with you. This Yeah, this is awesome. This is

you. This Yeah, this is awesome. This is

one I've been kind of like noodling on for a while and writing in different ways, but I think I think the graphic finally kind of put it together in my head. It's a stupid graphic that we can

head. It's a stupid graphic that we can we can pull up at some point, but it like finally was like, okay, this is the essence of the thing. And so, uh, I think that that led to a I think it

leads to an interesting post.

>> Yeah. And like Rob, what happened where one day you were like we have demand wrong or like where did that thought originally come from or like we don't

understand demand. What was going on?

understand demand. What was going on?

So the original point that I had this and I'll actually write about this in a couple weeks but um the original point was when I realized it as it related to

product development and that a feature request in itself seems like it is demand right but it is actually a request for supply and demand is

something else right and so when somebody requests a feature it seems like they want that feature but they're really just telling you what to build and if in like demand exists as a

totally separate thing to that it's something that happened in their world it has nothing to do with our product that caused them to request a feature and then once so basically once I

separated once I had that space in my brain for saying okay supply is what we build and demand is not desire for supply it is something else it's just

something out there that we don't really control that exists whether or not we exist. Then it's like, oh my gosh, this

exist. Then it's like, oh my gosh, this has implications everywhere in startups and it just liberates you in so many different ways from that tiny little

realization that demand is basically supply agnostic.

>> That's that's interesting. Can you put can you put some specifics on that? Like

what tell us about a feature that might be requested from like your previous life or your first startup?

>> Yeah. So, so people will request like an advanced settings feature, you'll get a lot of requests for advanced settings

feature in your application. And um when you ask them why they want an advanced settings feature, they'll give you a list of reasons. Uh you know, I want to be able to tweak this, this, and this, right? I want I want to be able to

right? I want I want to be able to change this for this person, right? and

and all of those things makes it seem like they are they have demand for advanced settings, but that's not quite right. And if you follow that path,

right. And if you follow that path, you're going to wind up building a very complicated advanced settings thing that may or may not quote unquote solve their problem, that may may not help them accomplish what they're actually trying

to accomplish. And so when you zoom out

to accomplish. And so when you zoom out and say, "Okay, let's for a second let's let's put advanced settings on hold.

what was going on in your world before you requested the advanced settings feature. You realize that they're like,

feature. You realize that they're like, well, I want to just be able to receive notifications. Look, like it was

notifications. Look, like it was basically I was getting too many emails in my inbox and I couldn't keep up with them and so I want to receive some sort of a digest email and so I figured if you create an advanced settings thing

that I could I could manage it there.

It's like, okay, so instead of spending six months building an advanced settings part of the application, I could just have a digest email that I send that takes me two hours to build that's actually what you want. That like

actually fits what you want. And so it's it's things like that where where you can if you if you think that that basically demand is desire for a product

or desire for a feature, you're never going to be able to see that. But if you see demand as something totally separate, then you say, "Okay, cool.

you're requesting supply right now. I

need to understand what's on the demand side.

>> I that's super interesting and it ties in a bunch of things that you know that you've talked about like why why road maps are are typically like not useful because you're just going to you know you're going to add things to your road

map that are you know probably not valuable. You're not going to get to

valuable. You're not going to get to them and like there's like that's not a great way to to plan out products. Uh

but let's maybe before we jump farther into this demand, let's divine define demand and supply. Just for anybody that might be stumbling accidentally across

this podcast for the first time.

>> Yeah. So, so basically supply is everything that we build and we make.

It's stuff that we control. And so you can think of supply as our product, right? It's but it's also our messaging.

right? It's but it's also our messaging.

And it's it's kind of all of the things a box of things that we can exert force over demand is not that it's stuff that exists out there in the world

in our customers worlds and it's the way I think about demand is it's basically what they are trying to accomplish the easiest way to conceptualize this for me to make it kind of more concrete is

imagine that everybody has a to-do list in their brain and that to-do list is not I need to buy a CRM because nobody has ever wanted to buy a CRM right like they are forced to buy a CRM because of

circ circumstances. Um the the the to-do

circ circumstances. Um the the the to-do list is I need to organize my sales data. I need to stop losing da right

data. I need to stop losing da right like and and at any one point in time they can only prioritize one thing on their to-do list because we're human, right? And so the thing they are

right? And so the thing they are currently prioritizing, they have demand to accomplish that thing. If our supply fits what they are trying to accomplish

on their to-do list, they will pull it out of our hands.

If our supply doesn't fit what they were trying to accomplish, it would be weird if they bought it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And another thing that you I think this one's in your book and you talk about it frequently is demand exists whether or not you exist. It's

like if your if your products just were to poof vanish from the face of the earth, >> that person would still need to do the thing on the top of their to-do list.

>> Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

>> Um well, let me I'd like to jump into a couple quotes that you have and just like get your reaction. Let's dive

deeper into them. Um like I thought this was just awesome. Um everything that you're taught about sales is downstream from seller push versus buyer pull. And

those are in all caps just for anybody that might be curious. Uh the fancy terms, automations, and methodologies only make sense and work in the context

of pull. Um all right, let's jump into

of pull. Um all right, let's jump into the seller- push, seller push side of this. At root, we all seem to think that

this. At root, we all seem to think that the core force in the physics of sales is seller convincing buyer to buy. I

read that and I was like, I'm so guilty.

Like that was 100% how I approached my the first products that I was trying to sell. Um I call you said and then you're

sell. Um I call you said and then you're right. I call this seller push. Tell us

right. I call this seller push. Tell us

about like what does seller push look like? And I can add my perspective on

like? And I can add my perspective on that one too.

Well, yeah. Well, like like there what I'm trying to get to here is that there's this implicit assumption basically we we all have whether we are

a salesperson or a founder who sells or a founder who avoids sales, right? We we

all have this implicit assumption about sales that is about like what causes a deal to happen? What causes somebody to

buy something? There is a force there.

buy something? There is a force there.

there is something that is forcing it causing it to happen and that's what I call the physics of sales because we can think about it in terms of like physics terms push pull force accelerate like

these kinds of things apply what is causing somebody to buy right and so the implicit assumption we all have is that

the seller convinces the buyer to buy and that is what causes the deal to And that takes that there's so many

different ways that this plays out. This

plays out in the messaging that you send to people when you're trying to convince them to talk to you. You're basically

trying to persuade them to buy your product. Right? Don't you have these

product. Right? Don't you have these pain points? Don't you have these

pain points? Don't you have these problems? Don't you want this compelling

problems? Don't you want this compelling ROI? Right? It it plays out there. And

ROI? Right? It it plays out there. And

it plays out in every single step after that, too. From the moment you're on a

that, too. From the moment you're on a call to the moment you end the call to your second call to like all the way through the sales process, it plays out basically in every second, every minute

of every call.

>> Yeah. And psychologically the way that that feels is like you're constantly failing because you're c you're what you I didn't realize I was trying to do was

I was trying to create demand and I thought like the right combinations of words the right psychological approach the right sequencing of questions the like you said the right outreach the

right slides whatever it might be that was the thing that if I got it right then people would start to buy the thing that I was selling.

And I just kept, you know, for months was just like this, it's not working and it it just totally sucks cuz it feels like you're failing because you are not saying the right things in the right

way.

>> Yeah. And you think it's a messaging thing. That's that's a really big you

thing. That's that's a really big you think that oh maybe if I just structure the logic or if I add more persuasion or if I read sales books that tell me just

work harder, right?

or you know it's like you go down these like real uh or at least I did. I can't talk for anybody else but it's like you end up

following like psychology influencers who are like these I sold $400 million in whatever software last year. Here's

the three hacks that are like I used every time I went into a sales call. and

you're like, "Wow, like those are I can't believe like that's what caused people to buy." And then you try it and you're like, "Well, I just looked like a

when I did that. Nothing worked."

I I think I told this story before, but I like our biggest customer opportunity ever in my last startup corporate fast food brand. I I used one of these like

food brand. I I used one of these like tactics cuz I didn't understand this. I

I thought people were buying because I was convincing them. And so I used one of these tactics that I had read about in a very popular sales book by the way and they were so offended that they took

our presentation and gave it to our competitors and asked them to build product right and so it's like >> I wonder >> it's like you do that enough times and you're like okay maybe I have this backwards.

>> How do you become the team that is so likable that companies start to tell you to build the thing that uh somebody else should be building or is trying to build? Uh,

build? Uh, >> okay. That's that's amazing.

>> okay. That's that's amazing.

>> But but okay to your to your story, you had two problems the way that you were talking because you were trying to in your mind you were trying to create demand with the words that you were using. But you weren't actually trying

using. But you weren't actually trying to create demand as in the project on somebody's to-do list. You were trying you misinterpreted demand. You thought

demand was desire for our product. And

so you were proudly pulling together and actually I know you were because I've seen them right the like highly logical Bane consulting slide decks that's like

did you know that that podcasting is going like this? All right, got you there. Did you know

there. Did you know it's >> check? Duh. About to buy this stuff.

>> check? Duh. About to buy this stuff.

>> Gotcha. Yep. Yep. Okay. Premise one.

Premise two. from three. Therefore, here

is our product. You have no wiggle room and I've got you right. And then they're like, "Yeah, I'm not buying this." And

>> yeah, actually, it would have been nice if they would have said, "I'm not buying this." It was more like, "I'm not going

this." It was more like, "I'm not going to respond to anything that you say and I'm going to disappear off the face of the map." We ended up selling to two

the map." We ended up selling to two customers. I sold I'm embarrassed by

customers. I sold I'm embarrassed by this, but they were my first sale, so it was something. We sold two weekl long

was something. We sold two weekl long projects that I charged $150 for each and it was like I was and I had a there was a there was a you know we had a team

of three people. I'm I'm not sure how I was planning to eat after you know trying that for a while but it was um yeah we were we were really we had to literally give away everything and even

that was not like typically not enough.

>> But that's what that's what it feels like. So, let's maybe like reggrounding.

like. So, let's maybe like reggrounding.

That's what it feels like when you're doing supplier push. I have something I want to sell that I've got to convince somebody to purchase from me. Let's jump

into to buyer pull. All right, anybody?

If this is a new concept, like ready for mind blown moment. Um, instead, this is what you write. Instead, reality more closely resembles the buyer pull theory, which states that the primary force that

closes the deal is a buyer trying to accomplish a project on their to-do list. Our job is to help this person

list. Our job is to help this person accomplish what they're trying to accomplish. Our product needs to fit

accomplish. Our product needs to fit what's on their to-do list better than their alternatives. And when it does,

their alternatives. And when it does, they pull the product out of our hands.

What is What does that look and and feel like?

>> Yeah, it it's like way simpler. So

instead of trying to convince somebody that they should want my product, it's literally like, "Oh, you're trying to do this in your life. What options have you

considered? Option A sucks because of

considered? Option A sucks because of this reason. Option B sucks because of

this reason. Option B sucks because of that reason. Huh? If we offered option C

that reason. Huh? If we offered option C that didn't have the problems with option A and option B, would that help you get where you're trying to go?" Like, "Yes, of course it

would." Yeah, I'll rip it out of your

would." Yeah, I'll rip it out of your hands. Right. And and so that it feels

hands. Right. And and so that it feels much more like we are collaborating with them to accomplish something they were already trying. We're going with their

already trying. We're going with their motion. They are in motion. They are

motion. They are in motion. They are

trying to make progress and we are just supporting them on their on the progress they are trying to make versus trying to change their direction.

>> Yeah. And it's it's hard to overemphasize how much better that feels like between like the the the psychological experience of having a there is demand out there, the buyer

will pull when I have supply that fits that demand versus I have supply that I need to to sell. Um I I think one way that we as founders cope with this is we

avoid sales or like we think sales is something that we don't do uh or you know we can't do or something or we just it's the reason that we do tax forms

instead of like jumping like you know working on outbound or doing you know trying to get five to 10 sales calls a week because they're painful. But what

what is it if you're if you're not all in like what is that telling you psychologically or or about your approach here?

>> Yeah. So so I I think this misconception about what causes a deal to happen, what causes sales to happen is basically at

the root of a lot of different product problems in startups. from why we build wildly complicated products to why founders avoid sales

like as much as they can. So if you feel like you don't want to do sales, right? Like

you you don't want to do outbound, it feel it just feels gross to me to do outbound.

The it's likely because you think your job is to convince somebody to buy something that they might not want to buy, right? And and that's that's what's

buy, right? And and that's that's what's at the root of it. or in each moment in a sales like if you are really really stressed out in sales calls

you just like you're you think your job is to convince this person that they should buy your product. If in a moment it feels like you're persuading them,

you're trying to twist their arms or you feel defensive in one of these calls.

Again, this is this is what's at root.

Once you change your perspective here from I my job is to convince this person to buy to this person's trying to accomplish something.

If they like if I can't help them accomplish what they're trying to accomplish, it would be weird if they bought no matter how hard I pushed. you

get like way more zen about it. You just

you like and and it actually lets you approach sales and like outbound and all the different parts of this with way less stress and

with like without these associations of sales being pushy and and persuasive, you know, psychology hacks and all this kind of stuff. And it just lets you like

when that happened for me, I went from kind of dreading sales, just dreading every single day, every single piece of it, you know? So, doing

cold calls was awful. Scheduling

meetings was like a victory, but also terrifying. When people didn't show up

terrifying. When people didn't show up to calls, I was like secretly relieved, right? When people no-showed, I was

right? When people no-showed, I was like, "Oh, thank God." Right? And it it that was because I had this at at the the root of my belief system about what sales was. When I changed that, it's

sales was. When I changed that, it's like it's like not it's not even stressful anymore. Like doing outbound

stressful anymore. Like doing outbound is fun now. Having sales calls just fascinating, right? I just get to learn

fascinating, right? I just get to learn about what somebody's trying to accomplish, how they think about their options, and see how they perceive us versus the different options. That's

really interesting. And when they pull, I understand why. I understand what they're buying. when they don't, I get

they're buying. when they don't, I get to learn something new about the world and say, "Okay, cool. Do we change something because of that?" And it just lowers the stress level so much that it

allows me to build the right product, design the right and like have my head on straight about the entire process.

>> Yeah. And and the experience >> on the other side is totally different as well. like them. You go from somebody

as well. like them. You go from somebody who's like, "God, I got to talk with this person that's trying to sell me something. I've got to figure out how to

something. I've got to figure out how to like navigate my way out of this or it's a total waste of my time to a conversation that it like it doesn't feel forced. You're actually kind of

feel forced. You're actually kind of exploring what your demand is and it's it can be helpful in a way even if you don't end up having demand for their

product. like it's the pressure the

product. like it's the pressure the pressure changes the tone of the conversation changes uh for everybody that's involved.

>> Yeah, 100% 100%. And that's just like that's just like the feel of the call and the feel of how but each individual thing like what are you looking for in discovery? How are you phrasing

discovery? How are you phrasing outbound, right? How are you describing

outbound, right? How are you describing your product? All of that changes as

your product? All of that changes as well once you realize it's not about convincing them to buy your product.

It's about helping them accomplish something on their to-do list.

>> Yeah. You know, I was walking through a bizaar this uh this weekend and you like kind of walk through these aisles where everybody's shouting at you that's like, "Don't you want to try my artisal

chocolate coffee lor or you know these like piercings for parts of your body that are not pierced and stuff which is very much the I have something that I want to sell you um like approach to that." And there's I mean there's

that." And there's I mean there's reasons they do that. there's a

different dynamic in that environment, but >> but then you walk to something or you pass something that you're like, "Oh, that's that's a present that I want to buy for my brother or that's like something that I want in my life and it

doesn't like they don't have to say anything like I I bought a watch uh while I was there." the guy was just chilling like didn't he didn't like there was something that I was that I wanted that I that had immediately

sparked um and it resonated with my demand in a way that made that transaction like actually kind of fun like learning about his business and stuff um and uh which was so different

from 90% of the approaches that you see out there >> yeah I think like you can interpret this in two ways that story you just told and that's kind of interesting right the first way is which is like the

traditional Silicon Valley way is oh he built a product that was irresistible, right? He built a good product and

right? He built a good product and therefore you bought it. It's like no like that's it's the inverse causality, right? you had something on your to-do

right? you had something on your to-do list for which his product fit better than all of your other alternatives such that you ripped it out of his hands and

you had a pleasant experience versus in the other cases other people had products that were probably good fits for somebody's demand but not yours. It

would have been weird if you had bought I'm not going to say wear wear piercings but it would have been weird for for you for you to buy that given what's on your to-do list.

>> Totally. Yeah, I really like that. Some

of those others were they're probably great. It might have been the best decor

great. It might have been the best decor that was was ever designed by, you know, an artisal craft decor shop. Um let's

you know you talk in this uh in in the blog post about >> actually before before we get into that is there like a I'm wondering if there's like a diagnostic that people can run on

themselves to understand if they are doing um a push a seller push or a buyer pull approach to this.

>> Yeah. So the first one is just how do you feel when approaching sales? Do you

feel like you're fighting yourself when you're selling? If you feel that at any

you're selling? If you feel that at any point where it's like I'm forcing myself to do this work, I don't want to do it. It it's holding

me back. I feel uncomfortable. There

me back. I feel uncomfortable. There

there's this kind of feeling inside of of right like what you have to do is different than what you want to do. You

just you like this is at root. This this

is the thing at root of it. Period.

Right? Like that's a signal. The second

is based on the the things that are happening in sales conversations or before sales conversations, right? If

you're doing outreach that has a 0% response rate or like a 0% response rate except for all the out of offices you're getting or all the nos you're getting.

You you're doing this, right? You this

is at the root of it and you just got to break that. Or if you're on a sales call

break that. Or if you're on a sales call and you kind of feel like you're 10 minutes in and you're like, "Okay, so I've just been doing this thing called discovery, but it actually kind of feels like I'm waterboarding this person,

right? And like

right? And like uh and this is they seem uncomfortable, I feel uncomfortable, and now I'm going to try to pitch like

or or like like that's a signal. or if

you're you're kind of if if you describe your product in a way that uses the word a broad platform, right? That's a

signal. If you spend more than two minutes showing your product in a sales call, that's a signal, right? These are

all signals. And like if you if like the best signal is if you get a lot of head nods, cool, I'll follow up with you on that. And then you never hear back from

that. And then you never hear back from them. that is the best signal that that

them. that is the best signal that that um that you are pushing. And usually

what happens is in your mind you think well that sales call went well. I I

heard about their pain points and I learned about their situation. I pitched

our product and all it's capable of.

They said they would come back to me and maybe I even got a second meeting scheduled.

Like that's what's in your head. What's

in their head is I have no idea what this person's selling. I don't

understand this product at all. This

like this may or may not help us. I

don't know if it fits with what I'm trying to do. Right. And so what happens is you'll wind up maybe getting them to show up to a second call. Probably not.

And you wind up following up with them and you just you don't realize that this is what's at the root of it.

>> Yeah. Whereas if if they're if you have a a demand uh pull approach or a buyer pull approach, they're the ones that are driving the process. and like you don't have to push

process. and like you don't have to push it forward because you're like the project is not going away that's on on their to-do list.

>> Yeah. There's there's way less difference between what's in your mind and what's in their mind when you're going from the pole, you know? Oh, okay.

It sounds like you're not prioritizing X, you're prioritizing Y right now.

Okay. Is there anything missing with the different options you have for Y? No.

But it seems like you're going to you're going to prioritize X in a couple weeks.

Sweet. Should we just follow up then?

and then we could discuss in more detail. Right? It's it's I I way I have

detail. Right? It's it's I I way I have a way clearer understanding of what's going on in their worlds that's going to cause them to make a purchase at some point in time or that's going to cause them to prioritize something at some

point in time. And so, right, it's it's we're way more aligned to use the the consulting term.

>> Thank goodness we're finally talking language that I understand.

>> There we go.

what what happens in so you know putting on my skeptic hat into this >> um one of the parts of your pool um uh pool framework is that the options are

lacking. What what about when you're in

lacking. What what about when you're in a more competitive environment? Maybe

it's maybe it's you're entering a space that you have a different approach to, but there are other competitors that they're they're assessing. You're not

the only option that they're like, I had no, you know, it's not the I'm breaking through a damn scenario. It's more like, okay, I'm evaluating different options.

Um, what is does this still, you know, the seller push versus buyer pull still apply in that in that context?

Yeah. I mean, like, so what can happen is you can very clearly understand what they're prioritizing and how they think about it and the options they're considering, what they believe the pros

and cons are of those options, which by the way, that all exists out there in the world. That's in their brains. Your

the world. That's in their brains. Your

job is to get that out. You you can't really shape that very much. Um, you

just help them understand it better, help them articulate it better, right?

And then seeing that you can say, "Huh, well, we kind of have a worse product."

And based on their criteria, you know, okay, cool. At that moment, you could do

okay, cool. At that moment, you could do two things. You can say, one, screw it.

two things. You can say, one, screw it.

I'm going to try to get this deal and see what happens and maybe I'll learn something in the process. Or two, you can just you can play back to them and say, "Hey, listen. Here's why people choose us versus other options. It does

not seem like you're prioritizing that right now. If that changes, reach out to

right now. If that changes, reach out to me. Right? Either one of those is valid,

me. Right? Either one of those is valid, right? You know, the first may lead to

right? You know, the first may lead to churn, may lead to unsatisfied customers, may lead to product bloat because they're going to have a bunch of feature requests that don't look like your other feature requests, right? And

you're it's going to make it hard to prioritize. But like

prioritize. But like this isn't the the the aspiration is always I always want 100% close rate. I

always want 100% satisfaction rate. I

want to build the perfect startup, but the path there requires me to learn in a lot of uncomfortable ways, which could either be turning down deals that don't seem like they fit or accepting deals

that aren't perfect fits and pushing a little bit where it's not a perfect fit to learn the kind of grooves of reality to to to see what we should actually build and what demand really is and what

shape it takes as it replicates. Yeah, I

I like that the way that you described that second um approach of this is what I'm hearing from you or your priorities.

This is where we stack up with one of the other options XYZ that you already mentioned. Um I think that's like I I

mentioned. Um I think that's like I I don't think like we're hitting it as well as them. And they might actually respond to that and say like no no no no like you you missed this other thing that y'all have that I'm not happy with

over there. And so you're still

over there. And so you're still understanding which can also or they might say like yeah like this this feature is really important and y'all don't have that so I think we're going to go with you know something else.

>> One example of a friends company that where that exact thing happened to was like they were pitching a kind of we we'll just say like a clean tech product right software product to a potential

customer who was considering another way more wellunded clean tech software product in the exact same category. Way

more wellunded way more features. She

the the founder said, "Listen, hit like they have these features that we don't have. It sounds like that's really important to you. We're going to be building those at some point, but like if you need them right now, you

should go with them." And the person and the person played back and said, "I appreciate that, but the real thing that we're going to make be making this decision on is the expertise of the person that we're working with. They

want me to work with a salesperson and people who have not been from the industry. You are from the industry.

industry. You are from the industry.

that's what matters to us. And so,

right, like and so she won that deal against a quote unquote better product, better fit product, but that wasn't what the the buyer's

demand was a little bit more nuanced than just stacking feature against feature, right? And so and so by doing

feature, right? And so and so by doing that she was able to uncover what really mattered on the demand side that caused them to have a happy

customer that paid them a ton of money.

>> Yeah. Love that. Or and she could have heard like oh okay I keep losing because this is the thing which makes it very clear like how she should be you know developing her product or changing her

communication or the types of people that she should be reaching out to. Um

really um you know moving into the the second part of the blog you you go through um well it's in the title so I assume it's 11 11 ways that this manifests. I think we've talked about a

manifests. I think we've talked about a bunch of them. Um some of them are outbound the sales call vibe which we've we've gotten into. Urgency was actually actually one that I appreciated. If

you're you write if you're asking how do I create urgency? It's usually because you're having meetings unexpectedly canceled or postponed. Um that just like

another uh part of that self diagnostic we talked through earlier is like how how am I talking with myself or with my team about creating urgency like you have 6 days to buy this product which is

actually like always available it's it's an exploding offer. Um um

group demos and call to and your sales process um your mindset about sales your approach to product your approach to customer success. Are there are there

customer success. Are there are there any of these we haven't we haven't totally hit actually and while you're doing that I'm going to pull up the um the image so that we can also pop that up but anything in that list that we

haven't touched on yet.

>> Yeah. So I think I think um there the main things that I think are unintuitive here let's focus let's click on those.

It's demoing your product and it's all the product stuff right. So, so when we think that we are convincing somebody to buy, our intuition is to show them

either how to use the product or to prove to them that the product works, especially if we're early stage, or to just show them all of the broad capabilities in hopes that they see

something that clicks in their brain and says, "Oh, wow. I want this product now." Right? Actually, when you realize

now." Right? Actually, when you realize that it's that that it's about whatever they're trying to accomplish on their to-do list, you your demo is entirely

different. It's 180 degrees different

different. It's 180 degrees different because instead of trying to show everything, you try to show the fewest things possible and only the things that help them accomplish their project on

their to-do list, right? And everything

other than that will confuse them and won't fit what they're trying to do. So,

it's it is counterproductive. I have

this like this saying where it's like every additional screen you show or every additional thing you click in a demo reduces your likelihood of closing

the deal by 10% each. Right. And and

it's and and it's for this reason.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Every every single time is risk of confusing them. Um it's also you like that approach is I'm proud of my supply or you don't you know usually people don't think about supply. I'm

proud of my product. Let me show you all of the things that give me validation about the thing that I'm building.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like listen, I It's really good. It's It's really good. But But

good. It's It's really good. But But

then Okay. But then this plays out in a even more insidious way before the call, which is basically people delay having

sales conversations until they feel the product is quote unquote ready by this >> seller push standard. And so the real way that this kills startups, yes, your

sales like isn't good. It doesn't feel good for you. You avoid it. You postpone

it. You da da da. But the real way it kills startups is that you spend way too much time and money building your

product based on this push mindset because you have this thing about here's the product I I want to try to convince the market. here's all of the features

the market. here's all of the features that it needs in order for me to be able to convince them. And all of those things wind up being something that takes six, 12 months to build and you're

never quite done. You always need to raise more money and hire more engineers to get it done, right? And this is the way that startups die is they die just

pushing up the feature hill.

When really like the thing that breaks every founder's brain when you go from zero to one is how little product you need. How

little product do you actually need?

Because it's all about fitting what's on their to-do list, not convincing them to buy and use a broad platform. and that

their to-do list defines the shape of the product that is needed. It is almost always very very very small. And so

again they like this at root if you can break this belief at root it will make you so much more effective in sales but

it will make you so much more efficient in what you are building and what you are selling that like I I it will save you millions to tens of millions of

dollars in development. I swear to you.

>> And the and the benefits compound. Like

if if you think about two competing startups that are going after the same opportunity. One starts selling

opportunity. One starts selling immediately with a with very little product. The other one builds some

product. The other one builds some amount of time until they feel right.

Like they're the one that starts selling early is learning about the product that they should be building. Even though

they're not they're investing more time in sales, they're they're building a better product that's more responsive to actual demand. Um, and so in 6 months

actual demand. Um, and so in 6 months and a year or something like that, they have very different products because they've been one's been shaped by customers, another one's been shaped by what the founder wants to build. Um, and

they, you know, they're they're in a very different financial position as well.

Um let's pop up the let's pop up the push versus pull um right the uh framework that you have and

just like talk through this one if anybody is on an audio only uh platform this one just like click into the show notes and pull up the pull up the blog and you'll be able to see it. It's

pretty uh pretty simple kind of like in the top third of the the post. Rob, you

want to you want to talk through this one?

>> Yeah. So it's like the dumbest graphic I think I've ever made. I was trying to make it more complicated and then I realized actually this is all that that's needed right which is what is the

primary force of closing a deal on the push side we believe it is us convincing them on the pull side it is them trying to accomplish something on their to-do

list so that's that's it that's what we're displaying here and this is the force behind deal if you if you basically you can either fight physics

which is not recommended because it does not work. Uh or you can go with physics.

not work. Uh or you can go with physics.

So the physics of sales is they are trying to accomplish something in their lives and if we try to get them to accomplish something different, right?

We are pushing them in a direction they are not already headed or if we're trying to convince them to buy something that they don't that doesn't fit what they're trying to do. Again, we are trying to push them off of their

trajectory. They are in motion in a

trajectory. They are in motion in a particular direction. If instead we

particular direction. If instead we embrace that they are in motion trying to accomplish something but maybe blocked with that options and we offer an option that fits, it's headed in the

direction they are going, they will pull it out of our hands and we will have to do way less work of convincing, of persuading, of demoing, of all of these things because we're not trying to drag

them to to buy something they don't want to buy. It's the exact opposite of that.

buy. It's the exact opposite of that.

>> Love it. Love it. Yeah. Um, let's Rob, I think we can we can probably wrap this one up pretty soon. Are there other other topics or practical advice? We've

hit we've hit a couple areas that I think founders can be be thinking about.

What What else would you recommend founders do if they feel like they're like maybe actually they've come to the realization I have a I have a push

approach like I'm I'm pushing supply.

What What do they do? like what what do you do differently?

>> Yeah. So, you start the the way you start this is by saying, "Okay, cool."

Uh most people most of the time, given what's on their to-do list, would be weird to buy our product.

Embrace that for a second. Sit with

that. That sucks, but it's it's something you have to embrace. Okay.

Now, some people some of the time, given what's on their to-do list, would be weird not to buy our product. It starts

there. It starts with a hypothesis of who do we believe given what's on their to-do list right now would be weird not to buy. That is what forms a pull hypothesis, right? It's about the

project on this person's to-do list that they can't not do where their options, existing options are they perceive to be limited.

Okay, you craft that hypothesis.

I believe it's this kind of person for this reason. Cool. Now my job is to go

this reason. Cool. Now my job is to go talk to five of them.

Talk to five of them. Say, "Hey, here's my hypothesis. How are you different

my hypothesis. How are you different from this? What are you trying to

from this? What are you trying to accomplish?" Like, and you're really

accomplish?" Like, and you're really trying to understand like what is what are what is their demand? And does it fit our what we

demand? And does it fit our what we think the demand their demand is? And in

the process of doing that, five calls and we go back to the sales sprint thing we talked about a couple weeks ago, right? Have those five calls. It would

right? Have those five calls. It would

like based on your hypothesis, it should be weird if they don't buy.

So if they don't buy, if they don't pull, you've learned something. If they

do buy, cool. Send me a bottle of whiskey.

Rob's just going to be flooded with whis whiskey. Your your wife is going to be

whiskey. Your your wife is going to be like, "We we have a problem, Rob. We

need to start uh requesting different different things here." Um yeah, we'll we'll link to the the Sales Sprint uh episode and and blog post. That one's a good one. Um maybe like tactically also

good one. Um maybe like tactically also it's force yourself to stop building product like get your get yourself away from the thing that you're you know

hooked up to like a like on life support right now. Calendar audit super

right now. Calendar audit super valuable, right? Look at your calendar,

valuable, right? Look at your calendar, think about how you spent your time and say, am I am I doing these things because they must be done or am I doing these things because I am avoiding

sales? And most of the things most of

sales? And most of the things most of the time are just elegant and elaborate ways to convince ourselves that we are way too busy to prioritize sales right now.

>> Yeah. Yep. Um, awesome. Uh, well, we'll, like I mentioned, we'll we'll link to this blog in the in the show notes. Um,

Rob, anything else on your mind before we >> There was a mailbag. I remember telling somebody I will totally get to your question in the mailbag and I have forgotten what it is. So, we will get to that next week.

>> Yeah, that's that's on me, too. I I

forgot to to check the YouTube comments and the stuff, but we'll we'll get to it next week. Um, sorry about that. To our

next week. Um, sorry about that. To our

Wow, one one our our listener has uh has mail back. Maybe it's one person that

mail back. Maybe it's one person that just keeps changing their username that just like >> I would I would not be surprised. But

hey, we'll take it. We'll take it. It

makes me feel like people are listening.

So >> that's that's the project on my to-do list.

>> Um and folks, if you're if you're enjoying the podcast, we'd appreciate a review if we could ask for it or a comment. And Rob doesn't care, but I

comment. And Rob doesn't care, but I care about that. So we need to we need to send good vibes to the algorithm. Um

anyways, we will catch everybody next week. See y'all.

week. See y'all.