The Ultimate Copywriting Masterclass | With Bond Halbert

Thank god my dad went to prison. Um, I

edit that out. You know, for those of you who don't know, my father is Gary Halbert really quickly. I'll tell you, you know, my dad would pull me out of school and say, you know, you can learn what you're about to learn in school tomorrow. And uh, but I'm going to take

tomorrow. And uh, but I'm going to take you where like the magic happens. And

all of a sudden, I'm flying to meetings with top copywriters and marketers. And

he just was boom, I'm teaching this kid everything. He took me to I think it was

everything. He took me to I think it was a Sherin in Santa Monica. You know, it was between like breakfast and lunch.

And it was Eric Weinstein, a top list broker, and Jay Abraham. I'm the only kid in a meeting. That's the level of experience I was getting as a young person, and I was really paying attention to it. How do you go about figuring out what you should spend a lot of time on?

>> If you really want to be a great copywriter, and not everybody wants to be a great copywriter. Some people want to be good enough, but all the top copywriters have a few things in common.

First of all, edit as though your reader has to pee. You are fighting so many things for attention where you didn't have to fight for nearly as hard back in the day. The second thing I want people

the day. The second thing I want people to do is get a collection of swipe files, whether it's landing pages and anything else. Cut it up. Have a file

anything else. Cut it up. Have a file that is just headlines. Have a file that is just openings, subheads, bullets, closing arguments, postcripts, proof elements, right? Have a file that's just

elements, right? Have a file that's just stories. And that way, when you're stuck

stories. And that way, when you're stuck on that part of the copy, you looking at them from many different industries and areas, that will spark ideas. And when

you do it, it will not look like you just ripped everybody off. That's

fantastic.

>> The other thing that's really, really important that was part of the process that I did that is different. And I

haven't seen other people teaching this before is I do that throughout all of the copy whenever possible. I feel like that it's a subtle difference. It's

hidden psychology is what it is. You

know, >> that's interesting. You're making me take too many notes. Bun. What you've

said today might actually be the masterclass for copers in 2026. This is

fantastic stuff.

Okay. Okay. So, today I'm here with Bon Halbbert. Thanks so much for joining me,

Halbbert. Thanks so much for joining me, man.

>> Absolutely. I know it's been a hard time, you know, getting our uh getting aligned for our schedules and everything, but I'm glad we finally get to do this.

>> Yeah, I've been looking forward to this for quite a while. Um, you know, the fact that you're one of the top direct response marketing experts, and you've been coaching copyriters, instructing copyriters for for so long. You know, so

many people have said so many great things, and I've, you know, always heard great things about you. So, I knew I'd have to find a way to get you on an interview at some point. So, I'm glad you're here now, you know. Yeah. Thanks.

So, uh, you've been in the game what, 40 years. 40 years of experience in this in

years. 40 years of experience in this in this world of direct response.

>> 47.

>> Wow. and okay so going back you know I mean literally I grew up I remember stuffing stamping sealing and you know

addressing envelopes when I was I mean why be actually before I would wouldn't even be addressing envelopes but I mean when I was a little kid you know uh you know we'd be around the kitchen table or

the dining room table and my dad always did that for um test mailing so you know for those of you who don't know my father's Gary Halbert

Um but so you know and then uh really quickly I'll tell you and and just stop me if I'm if I wind on one day my dad was terrible with managing his money.

He's fantastic at making it but he was also I used to always say the only you know the only u the only thing that eclipse his bu ability to make money was

to blow it. And one time he was he had u he he didn't have as much money as he normally did and he turned around and um you know I was walking with him. I

remember exactly where this was in Santa Monica. We were walking to his favorite

Monica. We were walking to his favorite um uh cafe or you know morning place to get coffee and breakfast and I said you know I'm really lucky. He says why is that? I said you know my um oldest

that? I said you know my um oldest brother and everything got your you know handing down toys and cars and everything. I said, 'I'm going to be

everything. I said, 'I'm going to be able to see how you make your money. And

he just was, boom, I'm teaching this kid everything. And all of a sudden, I'm

everything. And all of a sudden, I'm going to I'm flying to meetings with top copywriters and marketers. And I've

spoken with some of them since then. A

lot of them still very well connected with. And you know, I'm the only kid in

with. And you know, I'm the only kid in a meeting. You know, my dad would pull

a meeting. You know, my dad would pull me out of school and say, you know, you can learn what you're about to learn in school tomorrow. And uh but I'm going to

school tomorrow. And uh but I'm going to take you where like the magic happens.

And I think on that occasion he took me to I think it was a Sherin in Santa Monica and I remember it was a restaurant everybody had finished you know it was between like breakfast and

lunch and it was Eric Weinstein a top list broker and Jay Abraham and uh Eric would bring these data cards which was how you know hot audiences so he was in

charge of identifying hot um lists that were were responsive and then Jay Abraham would say okay this is the offer that you probably want to make them and my dad would come up with the hooks and the headlines and the the stuff like

that. So, I mean, but I mean that but I

that. So, I mean, but I mean that but I mean that's the level of experience I was getting as a young person and I was really paying attention to it. I wasn't

dragged along and sitting in the corner drawing with crayons or anything. So,

and then uh really another side note is um you know my dad um when he if he didn't write the boron letters I'd have no proof of that because nobody was going to believe that you know when I

was 27 that I would have you know you know a dec you know 15 years of experience or whatever in direct response marketing.

>> I can imagine at that young age it's very um you know you're very impressionable right? So, a lot of that

impressionable right? So, a lot of that stuck with you quite quite quickly compared to many copyrighters that learn it later in life where they kind of have to get used to it. Like the same you would learn a foreign language as an adult versus learning learning a new

language as a kid, right? There's a

copyright I coach. He started with me when he was 15. You know, he was struggling 15 to 16, but then he clicked and I would say he's uh, you know, in the top three copyrighters ever coached cuz he just it it's something about

maybe the fact that he was a lot younger too that he's just very open to that sort of information and it really clicked for him, you know.

>> Oh, it is 100% true. Um, I think in a way that I've never met anybody else do and it's not I never say it's talent.

It's like, you know, Tiger Woods was hitting, you know, golf balls when he was four years old, right? You know,

>> and uh you're 100% right because, you know, you can't pick up a language without having an accent like after the age of 13 or something like that. I

forget what the what the number is but um the way you think is completely changed and you know I'm I'm learning to think and being trained how to think and

you know understand things from you know Gary Halbert's perspective at a very very early age and then of course everything everything you go from that point forward is kind of you know

grooved into it. So, you know, all of marketing boils down to, you know, you know, you want something from somebody else, another human being. It's like,

okay, what does that person want? You

know, so much that they're willing to trade me uh what do trade for me for what I want from them for if I can provide that for them. But that's not you know a lot of marketers and

copywriters they you know they want to become copywriters and their copywriting you know starts when they sit down and look at a blank screen or they starts sifting through a swipe file or

something like that. Uh not you know my copywriting and uh marketing and all that starts with um you know as soon as I hear as soon as I have an idea of what

I want what I want to create because you're walking around thinking about ideas. So, you know, um, my father was,

ideas. So, you know, um, my father was, excuse me, let me get a little water.

Um, my father, his mind was never turned off and to the point where he couldn't do anything else. Like, you know, he couldn't like

else. Like, you know, he couldn't like maintain his cars, you know, putting oil in the car, stuff like that. But his

mind was constantly working. And you

know it was you know people would see him sit down and write an ad in like you know uh you know half an hour an hour or something like that you know like a full page ad but they didn't understand the

the you know he's been writing it for weeks in his head. That's a great insight. I think a lot of copyriters

insight. I think a lot of copyriters they look at especially new ones right they look at the words on the page as a reflection of the effort when in actual fact that's maybe 20% 10% of all the

stuff that they did beforehand thinking about it maybe even all the things that they removed from the page it's all the stuff that you also cut and you you know there's a lot of other stuff there I I remember like a few months ago I was

writing a new sales letter and my lead was three times the length of the lead I actually ended up going with because I was just you know in my first draft And there was a lot of time I spent on that lead. You know, I spent a lot of time on

lead. You know, I spent a lot of time on that lead and I removed twothirds of it.

So, nobody sees that part of it. It's it

looks like a very short sales letter compared to the original one I wrote because it was a story lead. It looked

like a very it was a very long story I wrote, but I cut it down and you know, but you don't see that part, right? So,

you know, >> I you know, there's a u time when I was with my brother, I was my brother and I were actually writing a competing pieces and I told him I said, "Your copy's too long." He's like, "I think it's fine." I

long." He's like, "I think it's fine." I

said, 'Well, let me edit it. And he

goes, "Okay, I'll tell you what. We'll

do a three-way test." And it was my copy, his copy, and his copy that I edited. And uh what I hap what happened

edited. And uh what I hap what happened was my copy and the copy I his copy that I edited, which were completely different, right? Um beat the unedited

different, right? Um beat the unedited copy by 400%.

And he asked me what, you know, what did you do? I said, I went through like no,

you do? I said, I went through like no, I'll tell you something. what my answer I said I went through it and acted like I was a most self-interested

like you know jerk in the world that it was all about me and everything else and I cut out everything that wouldn't that I that wouldn't keep me interested in going >> and interesting >> and so I just hacked and hacked and

hacked it's like you know because you'll see people I'll give you traditional stuff like you know copywriters will say you know so and so graduated from Yale with a degree in this and this and this

and that you know that that comes down to maybe a proof element, you know, you know, to why you're an expert in stuff, but that's not grabbing your attention right off the bat, you know. Um, so it's something that you that you might even

want to completely remove. You know, I have a degree in marketing. I never

mention it except except to tell people, I never mention my degree uh because you have no interest in that.

you know, you have an interest in what have I done lately and you know, what can I teach you and what can I you know what you know, you know, what kind of um hacks or you know, strategies I can show

you and stuff like that. So, you have to go through editing uh that way. And then

the one thing that's also changed over the years is editing um you have to do a lot you have to be a lot harsher on it now than you used to be because people

used to read for entertainment. you

know, instead of iPhones, everybody's, you know, um, you know, reading newspapers and stuff like that. And if

you look at books throughout history, um, they get, um, the attention spans don't get shorter. People get bored faster. That's what happens. You know,

faster. That's what happens. You know,

Tik Tok life, you know, and the Instagram, everything else is making it so we got to say something really quick, get them to, you know, sell the next, you know, keep to keep watching and then

keep them going. But we have to do that in a we have to be more fierce about that. You know, you can still get people

that. You know, you can still get people to watch a twohour and two and a half hour Marvel movie, right? But you notice they have three big bang endings. You

know, when I was a kid, there was one big explosive ending at the end. And so

they can get bored a lot quicker. And so

what you have to do is you need to cut that out. And then I will give credit to

that out. And then I will give credit to my brother who had said that you know after I was explaining that he goes yeah edit as though your reader has to pee

you know so the only thing that only yeah the only thing that sticks around is you know what what or should stay is something that they would be willing to you know hold it for just a little bit

longer to make sure you know to hear that bit of information. I think that's a good that's a good insight though because I've heard a few people say you know that I mean I've said this to many copyriters too. I'd say like imagine

copyriters too. I'd say like imagine your prospect is either on the train or making breakfast for themsel or maybe sitting on the L or something but that's that's their there that's that's dead time I guess you could say whereas what

you're saying is there's something else that's putting pressure on them to give attention to something else like that's a different way to think about it.

>> Yeah. It is constantly doing that. You

are you are fighting so many things for attention where you know you didn't fight you didn't have to fight for nearly as hard back in the day.

>> You know basically you know you could get people to uh and by the way another thing is people value their reading time more than anything else. So copy you know a lot of people think about it as

just writing landing pages but copy is also script writing for VSSLs. you know,

it's, you know, script writing for, um, video ad, uh, not just VSSLs, but also for posts, you know, and, you know, everything. And anytime that you're

everything. And anytime that you're using words and if I sent around and I asked you and I said, "Hey, Matthew, I got there's a show you got to check out, you know, but it really gets good about

episode three, right?" You'll like start watching it till episode three, right?

>> Yeah.

>> And then if I say, "Hey, check out this song you like." you know, in their average of three and a half minutes, you'll give it, you know, you know, you you'll try the song and everything. If I

hand you a 12-page sales letter and I say, you know, hey, give this a read, you know, everybody's like, okay, I'll do this later when I have time and they put it down, right? You know that, you know, you might do it because I've asked

you to do it or somebody's done it as a friendship. But that's the other thing

friendship. But that's the other thing that's really, really important that was part of the process that I did that is different. Copywriters will take their

different. Copywriters will take their copy, they'll hand it to somebody that they love and trust and everything and say, "Could you read this and tell me what you think?" And they read the whole

thing. And the truth is they um because

thing. And the truth is they um because they're doing it because you know your mom's not going to read, you know, tell you, "Hey, you know, Matthew, you know, this bored me in and I would have

stopped reading in page one, right?" So,

what happens is they go, "Oh, no, it was good. I like this part that you add and

good. I like this part that you add and it ebbed and flowed and everything, but in reality, you may have never gotten to the exciting part because the people who are getting your sales message, they can close that email and move on to another

email. They can stop they can, you know,

email. They can stop they can, you know, shut down your YouTube video and go to a different YouTube video. You know, they they they have no social contract.

They're not afraid of, you know, offending you by just turning turning it off and not re finishing reading. So

your editing has to be kind of it has to be very much uh aware of that fact. And

so be very aware be very careful with biases in the people that you're getting critiques from before you put something out.

>> There's no social contract with the prospect.

>> Yeah. I mean like they're just they're doing their thing. They don't have to read it. It's a good Yeah. Like where is

read it. It's a good Yeah. Like where is Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense.

>> And but but and I think the real problem is just because somebody's like I really they they fall in love with their own work. That's one problem, right? They're

work. That's one problem, right? They're

like, "This is really great." Yeah.

>> You know, because I'm telling this story and it was so emotional for me and all this other stuff. Somebody else might just absolutely not care about it.

>> Um, and then the other part is, you know, yeah, I mean, I'm not I don't, you know, you don't feel obligated. You even

have some friends, let's say, who you're on their email list and stuff like that.

You don't feel obligated to read every single word. Now, if you knew that they

single word. Now, if you knew that they were monitoring whether or not you read the every word, you might read every word. It's not like being in face to

word. It's not like being in face to face. You and I are face to face. We're

face. You and I are face to face. We're

having a conversation. You feel

obligated to let me finish speaking or to say my piece. Um if this was an email, soon as I get boring, click.

>> Definitely. That makes sense. Well, I I think I would I like reading copy, but it's true. Like, you know, we say, "Oh,

it's true. Like, you know, we say, "Oh, I'll read that later." I think that's often what happens as well, right? It's

like, "Oh, that's kind of interesting.

Let me check it out later." And then continue. There's a there's a another

continue. There's a there's a another thing I say there's two parts about copywriting is uh or marketing in part.

One things that makes you a good marketer is understanding you there's a lot of other people like you. I always

say I'm not arrogant. I'm just positive everybody else is as screwed up as I am.

Okay? And that means if something has got my attention, it's getting someone else's attention as well. Right? I'm not

the only one that would be attentive in it, you know, you know, the only one who might be into that.

>> The other part of that, which is kind of like it seems like the opposite is, you know, not everybody is like you. So

copywriters are much more likely to sit and especially the really good marketers, they love to hear a good pitch. You know, my you know, my father

pitch. You know, my you know, my father would sit there and if there was a street vendor out in the in the tourist area and he's got this hustle and this pitch, my dad would listen to the hustle and pitch and sometimes he would just buy whatever they're selling to thank

them, you know, for their time, you know, because he wanted to hear their pitch, you know, and we do like to read copy and we like to, you know, you know, pay attention to promos and, you know,

and and think that way, but you know, your average person might not be, you know what I'm saying? So, uh, I think I think it'd be easier for to get you to read a 12-page sales pitch than the

average person. I think what I'm saying

average person. I think what I'm saying is I think I would have to do, you know, you were like, "Wait a minute, let me see, let me go through this whole thing." And especially if you found out

thing." And especially if you found out if you had information above uh u beforehand that it was a winner because then you're going to read it and you're going to break it down. You might reread

it and stuff like that. But, you know, the the the prospects, you know, they you know, they're they may not be that into it. You know what I'm saying? So, I

into it. You know what I'm saying? So, I

think you I think you definitely are going to be somebody like me who's more willing to read the sales pitch. Um, you

know, than than the average person. But

if you know, the but again, the first part that I was saying is if you um if if it really gets your attention, it's getting other people's attention too. So

this is and a perfect example of this would be this. If um if it got your attention, there's a good chance it would get other copywriters attention, but it might not get you know somebody

who's tired came home from a job of nursing's attention. You know what I'm

nursing's attention. You know what I'm saying? Or hold their attention.

saying? Or hold their attention.

>> That's that's the point I'm saying. So

it's uh you know, you got to you it's a balance in needing to know that. you

know >> how do you go about developing that let's say identity or voice or perspective from the prospects you know coming from the prospect's perspective to see if I was the prospect would this catch my

attention like how do you start to develop that skill >> well it is there's a okay so there's systems for doing it and then there's a natural innate ability to do it so what happens is you know you have to be

honest and say you know walk in their shoes so that's the first thing okay so if you walk in their shoes the you know whatever it is that you're doing you

find out that um and I'll give you an example you first of all walking in their shoes is super valuable so um that means actually being their buyer trying you know going

out and checking the competition check you know um trying the product playing around with it and you know getting into it to a degree where you know it inside and out and so you find out what's

really frustrating and you're like how can I solve this problem so it gives me a USP right you know because you find out there's this problem when you're doing this. Um, so for example, I

doing this. Um, so for example, I collect watches and I was going to buy a uh used Rolex watch, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to get, you

know, hosed on the deal, right? And so,

um, I was talking with this, uh, um, you know, the the the person that I had trusted and, uh, I said, >> you know, uh, what's a good, you know, uh, you know, Submariner and about what

year are they about to, you know, maybe start increasing and becoming more classic? And he says, oh, this one and

classic? And he says, oh, this one and everything. And I was heming a haw. He

everything. And I was heming a haw. He

goes, "I'll tell you what. If you buy this watch, right, and you know, um, and I, you know, come back within a year and you haven't scratched or dinged the whole thing up, I'll buy it for 90% of

what you buy, you know, what what you paid for it, you right?"

>> And I was like, that took away my fear of this having a massive price drop, right? you know, and me me spending too

right? you know, and me me spending too much value on that because but walking in the shoes >> of the prospect, you know, you know, he knew that the you know, he he's been there, right? Cuz he's buying the

there, right? Cuz he's buying the watches, right, before he sells them.

And so what happens is you start to really understand it because you're feeling it and you're going through the process. So, you really don't know what

process. So, you really don't know what it's like to be lost at sea and worried about whether or not you're going to get back or have stuck on a boat that's not working until you actually do it. But

this is a tip that I'll give you, which is like when you walk through it with your eyes wide open as a marketer, you come up with some huge advantages. So, I

was u going to I was putting out the very first book. It was an updated version of the Boron letter. So, it's my dad's letters but with my commentary added. And so the first thing I did is

added. And so the first thing I did is go buy a book on Amazon, right? I hadn't

done that, you know, at the time. So

when I did it, I saw this little section that said people who bought this book also bought this book. And I was like, oh, that would be interesting to be in

there, right? So what I did um is I

there, right? So what I did um is I said, what would the you know, I know it's an algorithm, right? Or something

that, you know, it's it's software that's programmed, but somebody deci made the decisions for that program. So,

what is it that they would really want?

And I was like, well, they wouldn't want to sell a book that was 99 cents because they're trying to increase their average order value, right? Um, they'd want a book that, you know, was wellliked. And

of course, they would want to make sure that they're tied to people did buy the same books. So, I did something that,

same books. So, I did something that, you know, hardly anybody was doing during the launch of my book. I did all of these things to capture names and addresses. And you know there's you know

addresses. And you know there's you know I'm not going to give you a whole training on publishing on Amazon but one of the key secrets to doing that is I told every I told other people when they were buying my book I said oh go also

buy John Carlton's book he just released right >> so he calls me and he says >> he says uh hey how did you get people to send uh my buyers email selling your

book I like I didn't even know they did that right so what happened was so everybody was buying his book would get hey people bought this book also have been buying and loving this other book, you know, that Bond published.

>> And so then what I did was I >> I tested it two more times and I was like, okay, how can I increase this? And

so I wrote an email um to our list. It actually got the it was an unscruped list back when you could back when the open rates were actually a little bit more accurate than

they are nowadays. And it the list hadn't been scrubbed since like 1991, right?

and it had, you know, thousands of people on the list and everything and it got a 52% open rate. It still beat all of my dad's open rate records and stuff like that. And um uh but I wrote uh and

like that. And um uh but I wrote uh and I you know, you guys can adapt this for your emails. Um so what happened was I

your emails. Um so what happened was I wanted to tie it to two of the most classic books of all time, the uh scientific advertising and the robber call your letter book. And so I wrote

the subject line was the holy trinity of copywriting books, right? And so

everybody that curiosity made everybody have to go check it out. All three of those books shot up into the direct response marketing category right right to the like top and it so when for a

long long time if you went and bought direct uh you know scientific advertising it also said people bought this also bought the the boron letters and then I did it a third time and when

I did it a third time I said you know I want to get people's uh you know email addresses but I also want their snail mail addresses. So, what I did was I

mail addresses. So, what I did was I went and I said, "If I'm going to get a you know, I'm going to go um um I don't know if you have them where you are, but realtors used to always leave these little notepads that you could use as a

shopping list um you know, on your doorstep." So, I called one of the

doorstep." So, I called one of the places that printed them. I said, "Can you do this with my check editing checklist on every page?" And they said, "Yeah." So, I ordered that and then um a

"Yeah." So, I ordered that and then um a batch of those and then I told people go sign up beyond my email address and then I'll give you instructions and you'll show proof that you bought my book and

then I'll send you this notepad. Um I

can't you know logistically there there was a problem with the the uh you know because of the company that was sending them out. So I'm not doing it at the

them out. So I'm not doing it at the moment but it I mean I did this for a long time and it worked like a charm.

But what I did was the very first email I'd send them was like, "By the way, guess what other books that, you know, people are always asking me what other books I recommend." So I would list these books. So if you know, Matthew put

these books. So if you know, Matthew put out his list of top 10 copywriting books, but Bond's not on it. What would

happen is when they went to go buy some of those books, they'd see my book, >> right?

>> Smart.

>> And so what happened is but but here's the real, you know, it's like, yes, okay, that it's it's clever. It's kind

of a smart thing to do. But here's the important part. I was aware I had my

important part. I was aware I had my marketing hat on, you know. Well, like I said, it does I don't turn it off. I was

um I I walked through the shoes of my prospect. I didn't just notice what

prospect. I didn't just notice what other people what their frustrations were. I saw opportunities, right? I saw

were. I saw opportunities, right? I saw

other things that they're doing. So

like, you know, if you were if you were doing research properly, you find other opportunities. So, you know, you you

opportunities. So, you know, you you turn around like if you're into um you know, t people who buy tactical watches, like the military style watches, they

collect knives and tactical flashlights.

That's another, you know, source of places that you could do JVS for your stuff, right? Um you know, you see

stuff, right? Um you know, you see opportunities in walking in the shoes of your prospects. You see these, you know,

your prospects. You see these, you know, um stuff like that. Now, I know that doesn't go back to the emotions. So,

let's going back to that. if you walk in the shoes of your prospects. So, there's

a couple of the triedand-true techniques. Work the customer service

techniques. Work the customer service lines, you know, talk to actual customers. There's nothing like talking

customers. There's nothing like talking to real customers. And when you do talk to real customers, you want to kind of talk to them. You know, everybody's like

doing a survey, right? And that's fine and all, as my dad would say, that's all well and good, but the truth is the best thing you could do is actually go spend some time with these people and say, "Hey, let me buy you a drink." and then

sit there chitchat and ask them very open-ended questions, you know, hey, what do you think about the new, you know, this and they start giving you gold because they're just relaxed and

you're having a conversation and they give you the real real stuff and every lemon can be turned into lemonade. Okay,

that's one of the things that marketers, you know, good direct response marketers will understand. And you know, I I'll

will understand. And you know, I I'll give you another example if you don't mind. Um the you know uh David Garfinkle

mind. Um the you know uh David Garfinkle was writing a book and this is back in the day when everybody was like hey you write a book for authority self-publish it and you know so that you don't have

to spend a year hemming and hawing and perfecting a book. What you do is you ask um you you write down some questions and you have somebody ask you those questions. You record the answers. You

questions. You record the answers. You

have them transcribed, have it edited and cleaned up and then boom, you got a book right now. Um, yeah. So, they were doing that a lot and so it ends up coming out a little bit less polished

than if somebody who was sitting there working and fixing their book. So, he

asked me to write the forward for his book and I read the book and I could tell that this was like the process that was going on and I didn't want him to get any complaints about, you know, you know, this is supposed to be a polished

copywriter and this doesn't, you know, this isn't, you know, he's super smooth and everything. So what I did is I said

and everything. So what I did is I said in the forward I said you know listen you know how you know when you talk to somebody and they're giving a speech or they're writing something they have to cross all their tees dot all their eyes

they take forever to make a point yet if you sit down at a bar and you have a conversation with somebody they get right to the point and give you all the good stuff. That's what makes this book

good stuff. That's what makes this book so great. It's just like that. It's a

so great. It's just like that. It's a

conversation that you know gets right to the heart of it all and absolutely no complaints. Right. Uh, another trick

complaints. Right. Uh, another trick that you know that I do, uh, I wouldn't call it a trick, but a tactic and a status is when you're publishing books, a whole bunch of people, they're

publishing a book, which is really a disguised sales pitch, right? And you

know, you see that in the comments. The

first group of comments is all their friends and buddies saying, "This is ma, this is just insanely great value.

Matthew always delivers and blah blah blah blah blah." Right? And um, and then but then you get to the newest comments.

is like, man, this is just a sales pitch. More the ego on this guy, blah

pitch. More the ego on this guy, blah blah blah. You know, I mean, it's a

blah blah. You know, I mean, it's a total total switch.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Well, here's the deal. People would put their pitches like, you know, throughout the book. They they first learn they

the book. They they first learn they started putting them at the end of the book, which a lot of people don't get to, right? A lot of people don't finish

to, right? A lot of people don't finish the whole book, right? And then they would put it throughout. And the whole thing was like, you know, a pitch like every, you know, you know, in every

story and everything else. What I did was I was like, "Put the pitch first and say, 'Look, I'm going to pitch you this and this and that and get it over with.

If you like what's in this book, you'll also like this. Go do this and this and this and that." You know, and give them the call to action and everything. And

give them the call to action in the description of your book, right? You

know, hey, if you buy this and then go join on this list and do this and here's a reasons to get onto my, you know, give me a primary email address, etc. And then what would happen is then you just

go into value. So the last thing they remember is not that you pitch they, you know, they're like, "Okay, yeah, this was great. This was great." So when I

was great. This was great." So when I did the boron letters at the top of every single chapter, because it's an ebook and a physical book, I wrote, "For more great free letters, visit the

garyhalbertletter.com, right? It boom, it's over. The rest is

right? It boom, it's over. The rest is just a is is, you know, just the letter." So, and then, you know, the

letter." So, and then, you know, the letter and then there's my commentary.

So the pitch is super short, super sweet. It's it's being repeated at the

sweet. It's it's being repeated at the top of each chapter, but nobody's nobody's ever complained that this book is nothing but a sales pitch for something else, even though it's

actually had a call to action at the top of every chapter.

>> Because the way I'm thinking it is this is what I like this this is what I don't like. So, sure other people don't like

like. So, sure other people don't like this. Let me do this, you know, and in

this. Let me do this, you know, and in trying something different. And another

thing that's a, you know, so, so talk with your client, with your customers, spend time with them, get them to open up, ask open-ended questions. Um, you

know, people are always like, you know, trying to do a poll, you know, stuff like that on Facebook and certain groups and everything and everybody realizes it's very public and things like that.

You want them in person relaxed is a great way to do it. Walking in your shoes, I think, still think that's my favorite version of it. Um, but you have to have a good gut. You have to say, you

know, that that's what makes you a really good marketer is having a good gut and saying, you know, hey, well, this was really annoying, you know, and nobody's talking about it. Turn that

lemon into lemonade. Or be upfront about it and say, you know, look, this part of the process sucks, but it sucks on all of them. You know, there's nobody who,

of them. You know, there's nobody who, you know, you can't get over this part of the process that that sucks. Um but

here we we make it as palatable as possible you know and you know and and most of the time you try and become a a problem solver and make it happen. Um

and so that you can fix that and then again that becomes your USP that becomes your unique selling proposition and what sets you apart from everybody else because you took a you took away the

part that sucks. And so I'll give you an example. Um, when it comes to trainings

example. Um, when it comes to trainings and stuff, one of the things that I tried to do is everybody I saw writing, teaching people how to write bullets or something like that, what they would do

is they would tell you what goes into a good bullet or headline. Everybody

learns headlines. So, it's curiosity, benefit, and then there's some other key elements you can put in there. But they

leave you driving around in your car trying to think of a good headline, you know, maybe my dad would have you looking at other other ads, you know, and stuff like that. And, you know, to

inspire you to give ideas. I'm like,

"No, let's put this into like a system that's not a that's not a template, right? But a system that allows you to

right? But a system that allows you to figure out exactly how to start writing headlines immediately." So, every single

headlines immediately." So, every single training I do in my that I try to do, I want you to be able to do what I just taught you to do as soon as I'm done speaking because I found that

frustrating, you know, I found that waiting for the inspiration, you know, to be frustrating. So, I fig like how can I do

frustrating. So, I fig like how can I do this in a way that, you know, it takes all the principles but puts it into something that is a lot easier, you know, that is that you can take action

on right away. And you know that's so it it's it's just you know what frustrates you frustrates other people. So walk in those shoes. Meet with those people. Um

those shoes. Meet with those people. Um

you know and you know and the other thing that I'll give you as a tip is you know somebody says you know hey this part's a little unclear and like no no no reread it again. It is clear. No soon

as they say it's unclear rewrite it.

>> Keep reading. Keep reading. It's coming

soon.

>> Yeah. you you'll understand that sentence that made you go what you know it took your brain out of it but it's just you know I mean it's um it is it is

you know uh it it's hard to do it's marketing is kind of like jaded optimism you have to have be optimistic to say that you're going to try stuff and it might work but you know jaded enough to say well you know I mean you know not

everything I'm going to do is going to work you know and I find that frustrating with a lot of you know people are going to find that frustrating with their clients you in the in the in the copywriting industry

what happens is you know the longest client you know um copywriting relationships you know maybe like five years I mean that would be an epically

long time um because the clients don't understand is it's a series of tests really you know and then they're not all

going to win so as soon you know they hire you get a win um then they want to hire you again and you get another and they're monopolizing all your time and then all of a sudden something doesn't

work and maybe it was their offer didn't match their market maybe you know it was you know whatever could be bad timing could be whatever the there's so many issues and they go well now I'm going to

go in a different direction right you know so the copywriter who's delivered them several wins over and over again you know is treated like a movie star who just had a bad movie you

know that their movie bombed and everything And you know then all of a su you know they don't understand it's a it's a series of tests and if you wanna if you want a runaway winner and I'll

I'll ask you this question. I've never

had a different answer.

>> Um the the biggest win you had in your marketing career. Was it a surprise or

marketing career. Was it a surprise or not?

>> No. I I would say >> wow you're the first one. Everybody says

it was a surprise that you know they didn't know it was going to be as big as it turned out to be.

>> Well yeah I suppose I don't know. It

just felt like the right offer for that market. I just kind of just

market. I just kind of just >> No, I'm not saying Did you think it would work or not? I'm not saying that.

>> Oh, you mean like it was going to be the control kind of level of >> Yeah. Were you shocked at how well it

>> Yeah. Were you shocked at how well it did?

>> Okay. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

>> Okay. So, okay. So, you still Yes.

>> Because >> Yeah, cuz I thought it would do well.

Like I thought it would do way better than usual, but I didn't know it would go like exponentially well, you know?

>> Yeah.

>> I didn't expect it to explode. Okay.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, I mean there's things like, you know, like, you know, me getting the Amazon to send emails out to my, you know, to other people's, you know, buyers and stuff. It's like, well, I didn't know that was even going to happen, right? You know, you're just

happen, right? You know, you're just trying something new, you know, and that's one of the problems with, in my opinion, with AI, and I don't think there's a problem with AI. I think it's

a fantastic tool. I'm supportive of AI.

It's AI is a large language model but in short it has got to be based on the not it can say it can't say unique things it can say the same things in a unique way

>> right >> and so if you have a unique thought pattern if you say something that's different than the way everybody else is thinking and you put in those talking points into AI you will get better

results out of AI than if you ask it just write me a landing page based on a copywriting mentorship program All right. Um, if you feed it stuff that

right. Um, if you feed it stuff that says, you know, that's different because of this reason and that reason that nobody else is saying, then you get something that's truly different. And so

what I'm teaching my son to do is, you know, everybody's got a different process. Mine is think of talking

process. Mine is think of talking points. And I usually do it while

points. And I usually do it while walking or in motion, driving, whatever.

And then I'll take out my phone and I'll make talking points with my notes. And

I'll just keep doing that. And then if I want to use AI, I can just go and say make this based on in making all these points. And if you throw in a ton of

points. And if you throw in a ton of points and then what you do is you have to edit AI to sound human first, right?

And then you have to edit AI to punch up the copy. So, you know, you just say,

the copy. So, you know, you just say, you know, this, you know, this was this made my stomach queasy, you know, or my stomach felt a little queasy. And you

turn that into, oh, you know, my um, you know, it felt like there was 14 razor blades crisscrossing or, you know, cats with, you know, ice skating on the inside of my stomach, you know, you you

make it visceral, you know, and uh, you punch up the copy. But once the time it takes to um come up with the talking points and the editing and the punching

you know for uh to make it human and punching up is better than you know takes more time than you just writing it yourself then you're going to write better than AI

>> at that point you know at that point you're going to you're just you're going you're going to beat AI and uh but in the meantime you know to get the most out of AI you are going to just need to

feed it really good unique talking points and it's a way of thinking. You

know, an example I used the other day I was talking with somebody is uh I was with John Carlton. You know who that old guy is, right? Um

but I was talking to it was many years ago and he was giving me kind of grief about buying um uh an expensive watch.

He goes, "Why would you spend so much money on a watch?" You know, I mean, you know, a G-Shock keeps more accurate time. And that's accurate, by the way.

time. And that's accurate, by the way.

It's true. And I said, and it was my favorite off-the- cuff, like, you know, just line of like, you know, I said, because wearing an expensive watch reminds me that time is my most valuable

asset.

>> He was like, and he was like, that's really good. And here's another really

really good. And here's another really good tip for copy. If I in my opinion, his reaction means that would actually be kind of a good tagline for a watch

ad. The reason for that is

ad. The reason for that is conversations. When you when you have

conversations. When you when you have conversations with people and they have a real serious um honest to God belly laugh or great reaction or oh my god, I never thought of it that way. And and

it's not just, you know, paying lip service. It's not just being kind to

service. It's not just being kind to you. Mark that down and write it. My son

you. Mark that down and write it. My son

is preparing his first marketing speech for an event that we're going to be doing. and we were over at my mom's and

doing. and we were over at my mom's and he was talking about like his intro and stuff and he said something that made my mom really, you know, bust out laughing about it. I go, "You need to write that

about it. I go, "You need to write that down. You need to make that part of your

down. You need to make that part of your speech."

speech." >> Great copy can come from great conversations, especially if they're with prospects.

>> Okay? So, you know, uh when we were talking earlier, um I think it was off camera. Um when my dad wrote the Boron

camera. Um when my dad wrote the Boron letters, you know, he started, um I was 15 at the time. I turned 16 in the middle of the letters. Um but he had already been teaching me direct response

marketing and but you know, this was proof that he wasn't just, you know, he was actually actively teaching me and instructing me, right?

And so I was talking to a friend and I said, you know, and when I was younger, you know, I was 30 and I couldn't tell people that like, you know, I know about direct response marketing for 20 years.

Nobody believed me if it wasn't for the boron letters. I said, "Thank God my dad

boron letters. I said, "Thank God my dad went to prison." He started laughing, right? And so boom, that became a

right? And so boom, that became a subject line, right? You know, who couldn't open the subject line, >> you know? Who couldn't open that email to, you know, that said that? So, you

know, great conversations can turn into great copy as well. You just have to again the gut paying attention to other people's reactions and saying, you know,

that was a good thing. My dad would have conversations with people about the offers he was making to see what kind of he would gauge what level of interest they had by looking at their facial

expressions, seeing what response. He

would he would say something and see if you asked him for more information. He

was talking. Yeah, that's a good that's a good one.

>> Yeah. So, he was talking in clickbait headlines and he would see if we would get it. Now, my brother knew this and so

get it. Now, my brother knew this and so he was torturing my dad and he just refused to like ask any follow-up questions whereas, you know, I would um I I would ask sometimes and other times

I would be like, "Okay, you know, just, you know, wait." But it was um you know, you know, when he and his process was very unique. And the reason I say that

very unique. And the reason I say that is I've never seen anybody else who sits down and writes the entire copy but you

know by hand on a legal size p pad of paper uh manila legal pad is what he used and um then write it and then he had very little changes in his edits. He

would sit there and write the whole thing through. Now I know the reason why

thing through. Now I know the reason why this was is because he came back from the days where they didn't have word processors. Things had to be typed out.

processors. Things had to be typed out.

So you kind of wanted to to be you know even when you had a a typist doing this uh making changes was not a was not a simple and easy thing to do. So he would

get gather all the information think about all his talking points and he would perfect a sales conversation in his head and then committed to paper like in one sitting. Right.

>> Wow.

>> And um you know so he would he would do he would do that process. everybody

else, you know, I I mean, everybody's process is different. Some people start with bullets, some people start with headlines, you know, um I myself come up with talking points. I come back, I

commit it down onto the laptop, and then I go and I do now that that's out of my system and it like makes room in my brain for more ideas, more selling points, more talking points, more sales

arguments, you know, things to add to to the offer. And then I'll come back and

the offer. And then I'll come back and add those in. And then um then I then I actually am writing it down as as the copy flow and then you know editing it.

So um you know everybody's process is is completely you know for the most part I think most people's processes are completely different and it's but it all

starts with research. It all ends with editing, you know. Um, and you know, it's it's, you know, the better you are at it, the more of a unique kind of thinker you are.

>> Well, there's a lot of things that you've covered there. I think that uh the one thing I particularly No, that's good. I liked a lot. I was I was very

good. I liked a lot. I was I was very engaged with that, you know. Um, you

didn't you didn't lose me. You didn't

lose me, you know. But, uh, but but what I what I thought was really interesting is I've seen Amazon suggest me the Boron letters. It's like other people bought

letters. It's like other people bought this book. That's actually how I first

this book. That's actually how I first heard of the book is the fact that Amazon was suggesting it. So, I thought it was so funny to hear that story from you that you intentionally created it that way, you know, with the marketing.

That's really Yeah, that's really good.

And another thing that really resonated with me is that you talk about headlines being benefit and curiosity. I like that because a lot of what I've always done with my system for editing cuz sometimes I might just write the headline with

just pure benefit or just the curiosity, but I'll always make sure that, you know, those two elements are there. And

so I always when I'm editing it, I'll say, "Okay, there's definitely the the the core thing that the market cares about that's in the headline. Can I add the can I add the curiosity or vice versa, you know?" And then obviously I

want to try and add for me, I usually like to try and add some some element of drama or like some core core dominant emotion that's relevant to the market where it currently is. So like you know

FOMO if it's um if it's an opportunity you know the market's in a state of opportunity and it's it's good or maybe a bit more fear if it's you know the market's a little bit more in a in a no like you know concerned at the moment

about the state of things you know so that's that's typically how I look at writing my core headlines but it's it's also very systematic. So I like that that we have a very um it's it's quite uh uh it's good for me because I've been

using that process and to hear that that's very similar to the way that you've done it's actually really you know that's really great for me. I'm

going to double down on that process.

>> You you said something that's very that's that tells it's a very great sign as a copywriter which is you understand that different offers need different things. So right okay so for example

things. So right okay so for example risk reversal right that's a very important thing depending on how much the buying decision you know affects the you know how much information somebody

needs to make that buying decision how much assurityity sorry is a better way to say it and that can be based on their level of experience with that kind of product and it could also be based on

how much that represents from their income right so for example if I say try this you know it's a dollar do I need to say or your money back, you know, no,

right? I don't need to give you any risk

right? I don't need to give you any risk reversal on that.

>> And the example I like to use for this all the time is houses. You know, there are pe, you know, if you're going to buy your first house, it's your biggest purchase ever, usually. Um, the amount of information you want, you want a

binder of information. You want

inspection reports. You want to know what the comparables are. You want

information you can take back to the people you most trust, right? And say,

"Hey, does this look like a good deal?

What do you think? Have you heard of this person? You know, the this realtor,

this person? You know, the this realtor, you know, uh you want to check reviews, you're doing all this other stuff. In my

neighborhood, they are tearing down houses and putting up new, you know, twotory houses and like McMansions. And

so what they'll do is they'll come by and the guy's making a million half dollar decision based on the answer to two questions. What's the square footage

two questions. What's the square footage of the lot? And is there asbestous in your in your attict? Because if there is, then we have to water it down as we tear the house down. And they're making

a million half dollar decision based on like a one minute's worth of information, right? That's all they need

information, right? That's all they need because they're doing it all the time.

They've got a lot of money and all of this other stuff. So the amount of risk reversal and the amount of information you have to provide for that person is different, right? So you have to know

different, right? So you have to know your audience >> because each of these different elements. So I sometimes you know the

elements. So I sometimes you know the things that I might put in a headline might be even risk reversal if I know that this is something for which you know I'll say that you know and this is guaranteed or you know and if this

doesn't if you do if you try this for you know you know in such and such time or you take these x x number of steps and you don't like it you get your money back or whatever but that's only if

that's something that is prevalent in their mind you know really at the beginning of even talking about the discussion but you know you punch up headlines with Well, you know, um I mean I think I think the things that I've

consider putting into a headline is like 13 things. There's numbers, right?

13 things. There's numbers, right?

Specific numbers are really good because they offer offer a lot of authority. So

if I say that, you know, I mean, and curiosity interesting.

>> Yeah. So I have a pet peeve about um uh you know, things like six figures, right? Because one in my mind I'm like

right? Because one in my mind I'm like six figures is that oh wait because it sounds like you know when I grew up it was six zeros meant a million right >> um but six figures means like $100,000

or whatever >> and if I say this book made six figures or I say you know in the boron letters I made six figures or if I say in the boron letters I made $400,000

right in commissions or if I turn around and say I made $413,000 or I say I made $413,7 $72648

as of this morning. Which sounds the most real to you?

>> Final one.

>> That f that very very specific one.

That's the one that makes you go, "Okay, yeah, no, he can't be, you know, he's he's going to have to have proof to come up with that." So, you see these marketers that, you know, they turn and I would rather go with that and run that

and say as of this writing and not change the number for, you know, it's not like I'm going to update that number every time I say it, right? I can just leave that specific number and it will,

you know, it helps out. And so, you know, that's one of the things to put in there. Um, you know, a very great

there. Um, you know, a very great formula, you know, for when you're just in a stuck is somebody who's who's a a recognizable expert or a trusted person.

Uh, you know, that's why they used to use celebrities, you know, because it's like you trust him because he's William Shatner, right? you know, but there's no

Shatner, right? you know, but there's no real reason to trust William Shatner.

You know, he's an actor, but you're like, well, he wouldn't put his reputation on the line if it wasn't for this. That's the that's the thinking.

this. That's the that's the thinking.

So, you know, it's trusted authority is doing something to provide XYZ benefit to calling out the exact prospect.

So, um, so you know, I I wouldn't even really say Bon Halber. Maybe I would even go with, you know, son of the greatest copyriter where ever lived is

um is is, you know, um is is sharing or is now is revealing his system to um copywriter his system for getting clients to copywriters who, you know,

want to go who want to go full-time.

Okay? So, I'm calling out the specific group of people, right? Not people who are already full-time copywriters. And

I'm not calling, you know, I'm I'm getting I'm going for a very specific group of people. I'm calling them out.

But one of the keys in that thing that I teach as well, and I haven't seen other people teaching this before, um is the use is revealing, is doing, is something

is because it's an ing. It's present

progressive.

>> It's not something that's going on. So

if you say, you know, Matthew has had some of the big is wrote some of the biggest winners, right? and or Matthew has taught, you know, is has taught a dozen students, you know, or hundred

students or whatever.

>> The difference in saying Matthew is teaching a is is is teaching a hundred students, you know, Matthew is writing the best sales copy, you know, sales crushing copy in 2006.

And by the way, those numbers can be any number. They can be a date, they can be

number. They can be a date, they can be a weight, they can be any kind of numbers in preview headlines. He's

taught 13 copyright. He's teaching 13 copywriters how to, you know, you know, uh, um, how to crush it in 2006 26, you know. Um, but anyway, but my point is

know. Um, but anyway, but my point is using that present progressive. I do

that throughout all of the copy whenever possible because it's not >> that present progressive a lot.

>> Yeah. So, if it's not happen, it's happening now. And that gives you this

happening now. And that gives you this bor this thing of like this is something that I'm gonna get in on now. you know,

it's not something that I can always go to because he's done this before. It's

something he's doing now.

>> Yeah. There's not many people that use um most copy I see simple present, you know, it's just teaches or helps or go from, you know, it's not going, you

know, coach reveals how he's helping 200, you know, software businesses, you know, scale. It's it's how he helped

know, scale. It's it's how he helped them. It's past tense. Yeah. Yeah.

them. It's past tense. Yeah. Yeah.

That's that's interesting. Okay.

>> Yeah. No, I the difference is amazing.

It's how it's present progressive, >> you know, it is it's, you know, the more you show something is happening now. In

fact, this there's a there was a book pitch anything by Orin, >> I forget uh his last name, but um >> you know, he talked about, you know, a confluence of things that make it feel

like there's a train moving and you got to hop on it, right?

So that's what Present Progressive does is, you know, I want to hop on this bandwagon while Matthew is teaching all of these great copywriters, you know, these copywriters to become great

wordsmiths.

And so I feel I feel like that is the um it's it's a subtle difference. It's

hidden psychology is what it is, you know. um that is that is different from

know. um that is that is different from you know where everybody you know one of the things people talk about is the things that they've done in the past right you know you know that they were the industry first for this so the

industry first for that and it's different you know that's like yeah you know that you know there's an accolade there's a feather in the cap but what does that mean to me you know you know

how does it benefit me that you um you did something that was really successful 20 years ago but it benefits me a Not if you're teaching people just like me to

do something that I want to do right now. So it's you know just and again I

now. So it's you know just and again I don't always use this formula at I have a whole system for doing it but it is you know authority is providing you know

xyz benefit to called out prospect you know and so one of the things that I also believe you know and I'll give you another quick tip um because it's a

really easy one for me copywriters vary in their when they're working with clients they c the there are copywriters

who are um they have a deadline Right.

And so you don't know how much time you have to put into it. Excuse me, I got to cough one more time.

Um, edit that out. Um, so the copywriters, let's suppose you have a deadline. I

have hacks for, okay, I got to get this headline and I have to have it done in five minutes versus I get to work on this and I'm not putting this out for 20, 30 days. And and there's a whole

lot, you know, of course, the more time you have, the better it is. But there

are hacks and when you learn the hacks, you can actually turn around and come up with something better. So when you're reading copy um or write uh um there are

four types of readers that you are you and this is another editing tip. The

first thing you're doing with your editing is making sure that people are willing to make the decision to try reading your copy. So, if it is all blocked and there's no paragraph breaks

and it's really long and everything, it looks ownorous and people don't want to do it. If it looks like they can just

do it. If it looks like they can just scroll through it and there's subheads and they can look at the part that they're interested in, they'll give it a shot. But there are the readers are

shot. But there are the readers are there's the OCD person who's going to start reading from the very beginning and read towards all the way through to the end um or until they find that

they're bored, right? And then pull out.

Then there are the people who are going to skim the copy and decide whether or not they're going to start reading from the top again. Then there are people who are going to read it. They're going to see a subhead or a section that really

applies to them, you know, and then they're going to start reading from there and then go into the copy at that point and then continue reading down, right?

>> And then there are people who will literally just read the headline, the bullets. I think that the third one.

bullets. I think that the third one.

>> Yeah. I just came and then somewhere somewhere and I get caught and they go for it.

>> Yeah.

>> And then there's people read the um they read the bullets, the headlines and the PS, right? You know, at the bottom

PS, right? You know, at the bottom people really should still use PS's. I

don't care if it's a landing page and they make a buying decision or they're real quick buying decisions based on that information, right? So when you when you're editing it, so this is why

your subhead has to flow from the copy that leads to the subhead and flow for the reader right after the subhead as if they just started at that and didn't

need to read the part before. Okay? And

so um but the the reason but the PS is really important. So here's my hack for

really important. So here's my hack for a PS. If and I don't always use this

a PS. If and I don't always use this because when writing I'll often come up with a better PS. I just say remember um state the restate the benefit and

then put in the sense of urgency that you had in the copy because it flows no matter which of those readers you got.

So, I'll I'll say remember, you know, Matthew can turn you into a worldclass copywriter and turn, you know, set your career on fire and get you, you know, and and put you to, you know, uh, give

you that nomad laptop lifestyle you want or whatever the benefit is that you want to to them, you know, and, you know, show you how to sign seven figure clients within 30 days or whatever it

is. So you say, remember Matthew can do

is. So you say, remember Matthew can do all that, but you know there's only 10 spaces left in his in his program and so you better, you know, so you know, you

got to hop on it now, right?

>> So all of these readers, right, the first person, it's it's it's reinforcing and kicking off and reminding of the sense of urgency and the benefit they want. That's the for the OCD reader and

want. That's the for the OCD reader and all the others. But this the person who reads it all and then decides to go back at the beginning and start reading, right? This gives them a sense of

right? This gives them a sense of urgency to make them say, "I got to finish reading this now because >> I got to actually see what's going on."

Yeah. Yeah.

>> And so that's a great hack to make sure that, you know, your ending sentence that's down there because so many people are scrolling down to find out what the price is to see if this is worth checking out. They are, you know,

checking out. They are, you know, there's all these different types of readers. And so this takes the the

readers. And so this takes the the reader who goes at the beginning, comes down, kicks them off the edge. It takes

the people at the top, goes down, kicks them off the fence. It takes the people who skim it to decide whether or not they're going to read it from the beginning and makes them read it now.

Right. And then it's also great for the people who just buy from the headline, the bullets, and the PS.

>> That's great. Wow. So, you just put the urgency and you put the core benefit of the sales the sales the sales message.

>> I put the I I restate the benefit the core benefit and then the sense of urgency. That's that's kind I want the

urgency. That's that's kind I want the sense of urgency to be their last five.

>> Benefit and then urgency. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

Hm. That's really strong. I don't think I've done that before. I'm going to try that. That's really good.

that. That's really good.

>> Okay. So, I'll tell you why where this comes about. Um when um

comes about. Um when um I I I you know, when I took um these I don't know personality IQ tests or whatever and they say I'm really good at pattern recognition and I've read so

much copy over the years, right?

And um so what happens is you know I this this is based on you know tried and trueue tested kind of like you know I'd see these things in winning copy and stuff like that and I'm like what's the

what's the real pattern here and then I would come up with a formula that tells you that. So now see this this is again

you that. So now see this this is again this is the way that I kind of teach.

You can do that. Now will your PS look the same as everybody else's? No. Right.

um your PS but you know but but the uh so it's a it's it's kind of like a system that's not a template right >> yeah I like it >> you know because and I'll tell you something there are the the here are the

two things that I want to see if I'm going to be in competition with somebody for writing which I'm not going to be >> but if I'm in competition with somebody who's writing I want them to be one of two things I want them to start thinking

about copy while they're staring at their computer and opening it up and saying okay I got to write this today right you're going to get crushed by anybody who's been walking around thinking about talking points, doing

research, putting in time and effort, and you know, walking in the shoes of their prospects and, you know, just, you know, has thought of, you know, you you should be sitting down and just, you

know, putting out so much information on that thing and then hacking it away to fit and to cut like you were talking about earlier. you know, you're, you

about earlier. you know, you're, you know, you wrote the big long opening and then you cut it down to what was the the real core essential. That makes it more powerful and more impactful. The second

thing I want people to do is start by reading swipes in the same industry or niche.

>> The reason I want them to do that, my dad is the reason everybody does this.

It's his it's his fault. Um, so what he told people to do is if you want to find good ads and what you do is you go to the, you know, back then it was the National Enquirer, but you know, you see

ads repeated over and over again, right?

Um, for a long time and that way if they knew they were spending money, not free stuff, but if they knew they were spending money, then it was working. And

so you took that ad and you swiped it out of the newspaper and put it into a file. And I'm going to give you a tip on

file. And I'm going to give you a tip on this as well. And the then what you did is when you needed to come up with a headline, you would peruse these files and get an idea and get spark ideas, but

they weren't all if you were doing a furniture ad, you weren't they weren't all furniture ads, right? If you were writing a furniture piece, they weren't all furniture ads. And so it was but everybody took it as like, you know, let

me look at what everybody else is doing in, you know, selling furniture, right?

And so what's going to happen with your brain? If you've just read 30 ads on

brain? If you've just read 30 ads on furniture before you start writing, you've primed your brain to not think uniquely and to start, you know, you're most likely going to start coming out

speaking, you know, like one of those ads, which means you're not going to stand out. You're not going to have that

stand out. You're not going to have that unique talking point.

>> You're not going to have that unique perspective that makes your ad stand out differently.

>> So here's the secret to doing. So my

dad, you know, one time somebody came up and said, "Look, Gary, I look what I did." He took his um he took one of my

did." He took his um he took one of my dad's ad and just kind of like plugged in his details and he thought my dad was going to be proud of him because he's because he thought my dad thought him to

swipe ads, right? My dad got all pissed off. I think he started yelling at me.

off. I think he started yelling at me.

He's like, "What the hell are you doing?" You know, he just stole my ad or

doing?" You know, he just stole my ad or whatever.

>> But here's the way to do it. Get a

collection of swipe files, whether it's landing pages and anything else. Cut it

up. Have a file that is just headlines.

Have a file that is just openings. Have

a file that is just subheads. Have a

file that's just bullets. Have a file that's just closing arguments. Have a

file that's just postcripts. Have a file that is just proof elements, right? Have

a file that's just stories. And that way when you're stuck on that part of the copy, you looking at them from many different industries and areas that will spark ideas and when you do it, it will not look

>> like you just ripped everybody off.

>> That's fantastic.

>> Yeah. So, you know, cut it up, chop them up, and you know, put that file together. So, you know, I think it's

together. So, you know, I think it's funny because people will go through these ads. There's only one person I

these ads. There's only one person I know that's a that's really great. And

by the way, you have to do it with different industries for it to work. So,

I don't know, you're not old enough to remember the pro uh do you remember there was a promotion called the rich jerk?

It was a long time ago. There was this promotion called the rich jerk and it took everybody by storm and it was like, you know, it was all of a sudden it was like, you know, it was totally new. This

is somebody throwing stuff at the wall, see if it would fit, it would stick. And

it did. Everybody's like, "Yeah, I'm a rich jerk and this is how I got rich and don't you want to be rich, too?" And all this other stuff. Well, you know, if you if you saw that and said, "That's fantastic." And then you just put out a

fantastic." And then you just put out a program called the wealthy bastard. That

wasn't, you know, everybody's like, you just rip it off the rich jur. It's it's

no different, right?

>> Yeah. Everybody knows instantly. Yeah.

>> Everybody knew it. So the point is is, you know, stop stop ripping off and templating and modeling after everybody in your niche. Model off after other people's niches. And there's only one

people's niches. And there's only one person I know that and and by the way, you know, when you do that, sometimes your, you know, this story is based on a fantastic story that, this ad's based on

a fantastic journey of the company owner, right? And your company owner

owner, right? And your company owner doesn't have a fantastic journey. So,

you're trying to fit a, you know, a round peg in a square hole, right? And

so, it doesn't perfectly fit. I've only

seen one person who has such a huge swap file that they're going like, "Okay, this ad fits perfectly for take for adapting and it's always a different industry, but adapting to this

other industry." And so you don't, you

other industry." And so you don't, you know, I mean, it's a it's kind of like a pet peeve to me, but here's here's another Gary Halbert way of thinking.

I'm glad that he did that and I'm glad that everybody else is doing that. And

the reason the reason I want all the other copywriters to, you know, to model after everybody else's niche is because

it makes me so much stand out, right? I

want my dad was always like, >> you know, people would say, "Your dad can sell ice to Eskimos." I'm like, you don't get it. You know, my dad was about like making an irresistible offer. He

wanted to sell heaters to Eskimos. He

doesn't I don't want competition to be to be hard and everybody to be great. I

want the competition to be easy. So when

you hear people complaining, oh man, look at this. This copy sucks, it's like that's good news for you.

>> Yeah, I like that. Yeah. And to add to this with with AI these days, you know, I think there's like a third aspect to this now as well, right? Where you have the copy that everybody's swiping, but now everybody just takes all the

different they'll they'll grab the ad copy, they'll grab the VSSL transcript, they'll grab everything from all their competitors and they'll just feed it as one large data set to AI, right? It's

like, oh, you know, study this and give me an ideal customer profile, you know, breakdown or give me a creative brief.

And it gives you the creative brief, but it's all based on everything else everybody else is saying and promising, right? So, it's it's now just it sounds

right? So, it's it's now just it sounds like everything else. It's like great.

Now, you know, so essentially what everybody's doing is they're taking their five to 10 competitors and they're asking AI to write something that sounds exactly like their their top five to 10 competitors. So, it's exactly the same

competitors. So, it's exactly the same and AI produces it. And I think it's the best because I laugh to myself and say, "Well, it's yeah, you know, you know, you're going to have a it'll probably it'll be maybe seven out of the 10. I

think the market will probably care because it's something that everybody else is talking about, but is it going to explode? It's not necessarily going

to explode? It's not necessarily going to be that explosive thing, you know, >> and you have to feed that AI copy to people who haven't read all the other copy, you know, I mean, you have to find the prospects that haven't done that."

And that can work. It depends. So, I'll

give you an example. this, you know, I would say the only there's the only absolute in marketing is there's no absolutes. So, if you were doing, let's

absolutes. So, if you were doing, let's say, a roofing company ad, right? People

who are looking for roofs just discovered there's a leak in their roof, right? Nobody's been reading roofing ads

right? Nobody's been reading roofing ads for the last year and a half, right?

Copywriters are are paying attention to other copy courses and copy books and copy information for a long period of time. you know that that's the thing

time. you know that that's the thing like there's in our industry um you know Ben Settle did the whole industry a favor by telling everybody email your list every day right and the reason for

it is everybody else was letting their emails get stale their their lists get stale and you know then the the business owner would go to mail it they'd see that the spam complaints went up because they forgot that they had been on that

list um everybody you know there's always an unsubscribe when you mail your list and people got so afraid to mail their list And then they're like, "Okay, now I'm not going to mail it till I get something really good." So they wait even longer between the next mailing.

And then when they wait even longer, the the spam things go up. But you don't want to hear from your plumber every single day, right? So the point is, you

can get away with AI copy a lot easier if somebody's going to have a very short amount of time that they're going to be interested in that niche or that topic.

the more it is the more that somebody like this is a bigger part of their life for a longer period of time, the more likely they're going to recognize this is a lot like what everything else that they've seen.

>> Okay? So AI and and this is the way that I say it is, you know, if you can come up with unique talking points, use AI, clean it up, learn to punch up copy, you

can as you learn to be a better writer and punch up copy, the um um the that you can make money as you're learning to be a better at punching up copy, as

you're learning to be a better story writer. Because the truth is there is no

writer. Because the truth is there is no magic formula that's going to make you good right away. you always get better the more you write, you know, so get to

writing. But that's a way that you can

writing. But that's a way that you can actually start to get paid, you know, um, as a copywriter, you know, as you do this and stuff like that. So I and I think AI is a great tool. It's

specifically great for a person like me, you know. Um, my dad thought, yeah,

you know. Um, my dad thought, yeah, okay. So my dad's proteges, they they

okay. So my dad's proteges, they they they had different um, uh, fores. So one

was like a really great salesman like Caleb Odow. Another one really was good

Caleb Odow. Another one really was good at studying offers like Sam Marowitz and everything. I was big idea and big idea

everything. I was big idea and big idea could be a unique hook, offer solution and everything and a unique way of looking at things. So AI is fantastic for me because it saves me the part

that's you know much more time inensive.

So I can go for a walk and come up with some really good talking points and when I would you know they're like you know even when I would speak and everything they're like trying to one comment which I love but it's maybe it's a little too

much on I mean maybe I was you know saying I need to slow down was it was like trying to drink from a fire hose.

Oh sorry about that. So it was like trying to drink from a fire hose. So, if

I can spit out all of these ideas that are unique and make everybody go, "Hey, wait a minute." And my my goal was always before to make somebody who's very experienced like you turning around and saying, you know, that's an

interesting idea about the PS thing or that's an interesting thing about Present Progressive. That means a ton to

Present Progressive. That means a ton to me. And the reason is is because if you

me. And the reason is is because if you know if I can teach brand new you know ver or veteran copywriters new tricks and that's one of the reasons that I did

do the editing thing uh because I' I would have really experienced copywriters say you know hey can you look at my copy and I go over and I say this is really good but I would take this part and I would change this to this. I'd move this to that. And then I

this. I'd move this to that. And then I was eventually like, you know what, I'm just going to write a book about formulating how this how this process is working >> and what I'm thinking and what I'm doing and stuff.

>> But but AI the more you know if you're if you're a you know if you think in these unique kind of concept ways AI is like you know it's a great tool for

someone like me. Um, but you know, if you don't but if you don't have if you're not really good at creative writing and saying things in a way that's unique. Um, or and it's not it's

that's unique. Um, or and it's not it's or it's not, you know, you have to be all of these things. If you can think of new unique talking points in a unique way of making people think things. If

you can get somebody to say, "Aha, I never thought of it that way, that makes a lot of sense." I'll give you one more example that I love and I love the the I like to give you real life examples as well because they can be used and

adapted for marketing.

My daughter was 15 and she was talking with her friends at school and um she said that you know they were talking about getting a car and one of her

friends said my dad says I can have a car but or my dad said I can't get one.

He doesn't trust me to drive. Right.

Another one said, "My dad said I can have a car, but I have to work up and save for it and pay for it." My daughter says, "My dad already bought me a car because he says that then, you know,

that drugs and al drugs and gang violence is not the real danger for kids. It's, you know, it's being riding

kids. It's, you know, it's being riding in a car being driven by a teenage boy."

So he >> he's by me. Okay. See that that reaction, right? Yeah. Yeah. He says,

reaction, right? Yeah. Yeah. He says,

you know, buying >> he said uh you know um he's buying the car on the caveat that I don't ride with any teenage boys driving and they don't let any boys drive her car.

>> Right. And so you know and I guarantee if these girls took that argument back to their fathers, their fathers would be like, >> "Oh, you know what? That's right. I

better get her a car."

>> It's a really good It's really good, though. Yeah. So my son, I was talking

though. Yeah. So my son, I was talking to him about that and we were talking about how a car dealership could do could do a campaign based on that. You

have, you know, do you have a teen, you know, do you have a teenage daughter?

I'm going to, you know, these are the five or six safest cars and here's why you need to make sure that she's got, you know, she's got a car. You can make an entire campaign about that. You know

what I'm saying? But you see how I get you to go, "Oh yeah, I never thought of it that way." That kind of thinking, if you can do that and then you use AI, that's fantastic. If you are a master

that's fantastic. If you are a master storyteller, you can say kind of similar things that everybody else is saying and still get an edge because you are you're doing something better than AI can do

it. Because AI also can't tell when it's

it. Because AI also can't tell when it's being boring. That's another

being boring. That's another disadvantage of it. It can't say something unique and it really can't it really can't turn around and go, you know, I'm saying this stuff. It's boring

because it's just doing it predicted off of what the next word was said in, you know, last 20 times that somebody had used the previous word. So, and if you can edit better than everybody else. So,

if you can do any of those, if you can do research, unique ideas, uh, and selling points and stuff like that, better storytelling or any of those other things, you can beat anybody else

just using AI because those are those are the key components that go into great copy. And it's very rare that

great copy. And it's very rare that everybody is great at all of those. You

know, some of the master storytellers aren't great with really unique ideas and selling points. some of the, you know, the the um people who are

fantastic at editing, you know, you know, aren't the best at the storytelling and stuff like that. So,

all you got to do is if you if you can be better at if you can be better than AI and more unique in one of those areas, you will have an advantage.

>> How do you how do you go about figuring out what that one thing is that you should spend a lot of time on? because I

had a coach that told me, you know, you're really good at email and so I spent a long time in email and I liked it. But I found this because I also

it. But I found this because I also really enjoyed email more than a lot of long form copy. But then another coach told me that, you know, my writing is is very simple and clean. It like it's clean. It flows it flows well. So I just

clean. It flows it flows well. So I just had coaches tell me, do you reckon it's probably the best way to go is to just get an expert to tell you where your strengths are, or is there like a self diagnosis about this, too?

>> I think it is. Well, the the um I think that what you need well first of all coaches yes and no. The one of the reason I say no sometimes is because a coach will be like this is the part that I'm really good at teaching.

>> So then they want to you know that that's the part that they they're going to focus on.

>> You know I'm really good at storytelling so I want to I want to teach you more storytelling where you may not need that skill as much. Um and I find the problem with um you know everybody learns in a

different way. So I, you know, let's

different way. So I, you know, let's talk about one that's very controversial, which is um handwriting out copy.

>> Oh, good. Okay,

>> good. I like I like controversial stuff.

Yeah.

>> So, um the this actually is not, you know, my dad didn't invent the technique. There was uh you know, Hunter

technique. There was uh you know, Hunter S. Thompson, I believe, used to type out

S. Thompson, I believe, used to type out The Great Gatsby, you know, and whole books to try and get their rhythm and their flow and everything. But, um so there are a lot of people who say, "Well, no, it doesn't work. It's a waste

of time." Most of them haven't put a lot

of time." Most of them haven't put a lot of time into it. But there are some people who put time into it that I think put in a genuine effort and they didn't

get anything out of it. Okay. So, um but so some so it just proves that people learn differently. There are some people

learn differently. There are some people who I consider to be like the best copywriters in the world who swear that that was the best exercise they've ever done. Okay? And there are other people

done. Okay? And there are other people who are really great copywriters that didn't do it. So, let me tell you how it's how to make how if you're going to try this, how to make it more valuable.

First of all, if you're going to pick up the writing style of whoever you're copying quite easily, if you hang out with a, you know, a a core group of guys

from high school, not from your high school, but just you actually, let's suppose they all went to a high school, a different high school than you, and you start hanging out with these people

and in um, you know, but like, you know, several hours a day. It's not going to take that long before you start sounding like them, right? you know, you start using similar words and, you know, kind

of even the cadence and tone and stuff like that. So, that's one of the things

like that. So, that's one of the things that you're picking up on. So, make sure that you're picking up on somebody who's relevant, somebody that you like, you know, um, and whatever it is. But the

other thing is the, you know, what you have to study copywriting before you try this exercise. So, in other words, you

this exercise. So, in other words, you need to, you need to study editing, you need to study, um, you know, attention, interest, desire, and action. And you

need to understand personalization, copyright, you know, the making it conversational, making it smooth, using simple words versus um more complicated words, all of these kinds of things. So

when you're handwriting it out, it slows you down and makes you recognize that that's an example. And that's why, look, this was a simple word he used. This is

this is where he realizes that, you know, um that he's he's putting in the risk reversal and it slows you down and makes you pay attention to that part of the copywriting system, you know, and I

don't mean like system system. I mean,

you know, the process and so you get more out of it. You're like, "Oh, I get this risk reversal part now, right? And

and the timing of when to put that in."

So, what I do is I say at this point, somebody's going to be asking, "Well, what about this?" Right? you know, or and it's gonna and so what I do is I take that question, I actually take the

answer, turn that into a sentence and move it up just a little bit before they're going to have that thought, right? I want to give everybody their

right? I want to give everybody their thoughts. I don't want to have them have

thoughts. I don't want to have them have the thought and then wonder it. So, back

to that headline thing, when we're talking about it, we're saying, you know, like a risk reversal.

>> If they're going to be wondering, you know, if there's a if risk reversal is going to be something they're thinking about throughout the whole ad, put it at the top.

you know, so it's just out of the way.

It's done. If they're going to be wondering where the pitch is, put the pitch at the top, you know. But anyway,

>> oh, I've seen someone do that. Okay,

that makes sense now. Yeah. I was like, why are they putting the pitch at the top? It's like,

top? It's like, >> cuz that's actually the very first thing I was thinking about when I clicked that page. I was like, what is this that

page. I was like, what is this that they're about to sell me? And he's like, here's the here's the TLDDR. Here's the pitch. I'm about to pitch you. Here it

pitch. I'm about to pitch you. Here it

is. And now if you want more details, keep reading. And I was like, oh,

keep reading. And I was like, oh, interesting.

>> 100%. And you know, so I mean, when you you're going through copy, >> um, you know, don't stick on a completely strict formula and everything like that. You need to understand where

like that. You need to understand where they are. And so I'll take their their

they are. And so I'll take their their question, you know, or their the thing the point where I'm think they're going to have the question and then I'm going to answer it right before that. And then

I'm, you know, if they're going to be like, well, you know, what are where are the proof that this person is happening?

I'll put the proof just a little bit above that. And um you you just uh you

above that. And um you you just uh you know you you you're trying to understand where they're thinking and where their heads at throughout the whole process and it's you're going to you're going to

end up with better stuff and or better copy and you know you know my the one of the things that's funny about AI is they try everybody came out and they said you know we want they'd ask AI write this

like Gary Halbert right >> and there's a huge problem with that and the problem is you know there are people with a certain writing style. And I can say this because he agreed that I

thought it was a good description. John

Carlton writes like a mixture of uh Jack Carowak, um um Stephen King, and Hunter S. Thompson. He's like he's like the

S. Thompson. He's like he's like the three of those personalities put together and he writes story writes stuff like that. He's got that. My dad's

writing is not like that. You can read one ad and it sounds completely different tone and everything from another. In fact, he did one ad and he's

another. In fact, he did one ad and he's he's actually written the piece which is um the section is supposed to be written from like four different people like the executive of the company, the movie star

who's endorsing it, the scientist who helped invent it and all this and it sounds like four different people which by the way is a great technique because by the time you're done reading it, you're hearing four or five people telling you this is a fantastic product.

>> That's cool. That's very cool.

>> Okay. Yeah. So, um back to handwriting.

So what happens is uh when you're but my dad's thing, you know, he wouldn't he didn't sound like everybody else. So it

and the majority of his writing would be his newsletter. So everything would say

his newsletter. So everything would say dear friend, right? you know, and it, you know, which he never really started an ad saying, you know, he may have done one or something, but he didn't, you

know, he a newsletter he or or a sales letter to his list might say, "Dear friend, but for the most part, you know, it, you know, you couldn't get a Gary Halbert style because my dad used to

feel like you don't want them to pay attention to your writing. You want to pay attention to what you said." So,

when I told you the story about the, you know, my daughter, it wasn't like, "Oh, he said that and he used this twist and the way it worked." You don't you're paying attention to the message, right?

Yeah.

>> That's the most important part. But when

you slow down to handwrite, then what happens is it connects, right? And

you're like, "Okay, this is where it clicked. I understood how this this is

clicked. I understood how this this is not everybody." And I'm going to get to

not everybody." And I'm going to get to that in a second. This is not everybody that this does this for. Um, but it does it for a whole lot of people when they

do the exercise, but not if that's the first thing they start doing. They

should be studying copywriting for quite a while and know you know when it's in attention when it's interest how to transition that you know make how it's fueling them to do desire you know the

words that they're using like you know that are conversational you know and say you know like you would never like a word that we'll use in copy that's conversational you'd never see in a in a college paper is anyway

>> so anyway then I went on to do this and this that college paper's not going to say that but you and I would say that in a conversation right?

>> Mhm.

>> You know, um and so the you know, so you give that a shot and see if that that helps you. But when it comes to it, some

helps you. But when it comes to it, some people learned, you know, they have to read it and then they see it. Some

people have to hear it. And the one thing that really helps is coming into having mentors that read it. So I've sat there with people who've read my book on

editing.

and I'll give an example of um I'll do like a pronoun hunt, right? And so when you're writing stuff um you use pronouns because you're writing and so you know

you you let's suppose I'm writing about Matthew, right? And I say you know

Matthew, right? And I say you know Matthew teaches copywriters to be you know to get to to scale to five figures really quickly, right? And um I probably

wouldn't use the word scale, you know, I would start, you know, to start, you know, to start nabbing clients that are, you know, just to sound different from everybody else, you know, to, you know, to land those five figure CL, you know,

consistently land those five figure, six figure, seven figure clients and so forth. And Matthew does this and Matthew

forth. And Matthew does this and Matthew does this and Matthew does this and and but I won't do that. You won't do that.

So I'll say and then he does this and then his his system and I'll use those pronouns, >> right?

Well, here's another trick that I'll use is I will before doing that I will write down all and before doing the editing, not before writing. You never let anything stop your flow writing. Just

keep writing. Do not stop and overthink it and back up and change anything.

Edit, edit, edit later. Don't stop the copy dump. Always just keep going. But

copy dump. Always just keep going. But

what else?

>> Remove the backspace key completely.

>> Yeah, absolutely. That's a that's a great way to put that, by the way. And

so what I'll do is I'll write all the ways I want to describe Matthew and I'll say this master copywriting instructor, you know, this legendary, you know, legendary wordsmith, so forth and so on.

Yeah.

>> Right. And then all of these >> um all of these times I've used him and his and stuff like that, I will be able to replace those with those descriptions. So I'll say you know so

descriptions. So I'll say you know so Matthew is a master is a master marketer and once you have this you know legendary wordsmith's formula you know for success

>> you'll start landing those seven clients.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So now and and but here's the hidden psychology in that >> the hidden psychology is the studies have shown that once somebody hears something 20 times it really it's hard

to disabuse them of believing that that's true because they've heard it 20 times. This is a way of me telling

times. This is a way of me telling everybody that you're great 20 times without them having to hear, you know, in a very short period of time.

>> It's direct association. There's no like he is a legendary copyright. It's this

legendary copyright and then the content that they're thinking about is the end of the sentence. They're not thinking about that that word. They're just kind of going along with it. And eventually

it >> Okay. Yeah, I like that.

>> Okay. Yeah, I like that.

>> Yeah. I'm saying and I'm saying 20 different ways of of you know of how fantastic you are. You know what I'm saying? That's great. Yeah. this that

saying? That's great. Yeah. this that

you know this future you know this future A-lister or whatever it is that you know that that you know this current A-listister you would turn around and say you know I would write all those

descriptions and I do that for the you know you do it for the product you do it for the personality that you're selling you're doing it for the you know um for all these things so I would one of the

things that I really um do because my dad my dad's editing formula and I give it to everybody because he's given it to everybody it's real short I think there's five things there's is shorter

paragraphs, shorter sentences, fifth grade language. Um, uh, do a that hunt.

grade language. Um, uh, do a that hunt.

Most of the time we use the word that.

And I'll use this one as an example to finish off the the the talking about getting your copy read by a professional. Is my dad would say, you

professional. Is my dad would say, you know, 90% of the time you use the word that it is unnecessary and it'll flow more smoothly. And read your copy out

more smoothly. And read your copy out loud. That was the fifth one, by the

loud. That was the fifth one, by the way.

um the every time you use the word that you don't really use you don't need to use it and so when you write a sentence and then you can read it without the word that and it flows smoothly you

remove the that and so if I teach this to somebody or my dad teaches this to somebody and then I'm going over your copy and I said okay see how you got the that there and you don't need it and you see how we read it read it again without

the that oh that's when it clicks you knew the lesson you heard the lesson you remembered the lesson it wasn't until you saw it in your own writing and somebody pointed it out. Somebody, you

know, um, you see how you use the word obtain. Why don't you use the word get?

obtain. Why don't you use the word get?

It's simpler. Nobody complains that your copy is too simple, right? That you're

you're too clear and concise. Nobody

complains that it's too concise, that it's Nobody complains that, you know, you're it was it was you didn't use a $10 word, right?

>> Nobody complains about those things. But

you can see that when a when a when a person is looking over your work and you you're you're they're diving, you know, and they're and they're editing it in the process and showing and explaining

to you why. Like if I just take your copy and I edit it, you're not going to learn the lesson the same as me and you sitting down there and me going over your copy. And this is the point. This

your copy. And this is the point. This

is if you really want to be a great copywriter. And you don't necessarily

copywriter. And you don't necessarily nec not everybody wants to be a great copywriter. Some people want to be good

copywriter. Some people want to be good enough. Some people want to become

enough. Some people want to become legendary. Um, and you know, bust record

legendary. Um, and you know, bust record controls and stuff like that. But all

the top copywriters have a few things in common. There are things that help

common. There are things that help become a great copywriter. But they all work hard a lot. That that idea that, you know, they're just sitting by the pool, they flipped open the laptop, and

they're just like, "And I wrote a $20 million winner."

million winner." >> Total BS. Nothing like that has happened. They are putting in more time

happened. They are putting in more time in their research than you are. They are

putting more time in their editing than you are. Right? The first draft is going

you are. Right? The first draft is going to be just that. They're going to write uh, you know, 10 pages and then hack it down to where every word has earned its place and that it would be painful to

release, you know, it would change the results if they cut a word out of it, right? They want to shorten it, make it,

right? They want to shorten it, make it, you know, quick.

>> Yeah. They want to make it conversational. So, um, you know, you

conversational. So, um, you know, you don't want to cut corners in those areas. And so, you know, there are other

areas. And so, you know, there are other things that make people great copywriters that not all of them have.

Like empathy helps you, but there's a lot of people who are great that don't have a lot of empathy. Um there are you know being somebody who's curious that you know you talked earlier about

wanting to um you know understanding how other people think and what their lives are like and you know the you know you know what they're going through. People who

are curious are curious about everything. So you'll notice most of the

everything. So you'll notice most of the very top copywriters in a niche are part of that niche, right? So they're

perfect. It's that's what made my dad so amazing.

>> He could sell to a, you know, a housewife, a young housewife or a middle-aged housewife, even though he never was one.

>> He could sell to a working Joe contractor even though he never was one.

He could sell to an executive who's very busy at a corporation that he's never but he never was one. Whereas everybody

else, it's like they will sell to a niche, but that niche is mostly dominated by people who are like them.

you know, they are also yeah >> self-made pretty well offto-do middle-aged, you know, white guys and you know, in in, you know, of a certain,

you know, whatever it is, political persuasion or whatever it is. And so

what they can do, so I'll go back to my own example. So I can sell to the people

own example. So I can sell to the people who um I can do a great ad for a tactical flashlight. I could probably

tactical flashlight. I could probably also do a great ad for a tactical knife.

I could also do a great ad, you know, for the things that these that these same people, these same buyers are buying. Um, but if you're really

buying. Um, but if you're really empathetic and curious and can understand both, you know, different types of people and what they're going through, you can sell to more different

types of people and step into their shoes mentally a lot easier. But and

finally, so what I'm going to say about the the learning process, you have to find out, you know, who resonates with you, you know, which books, which um which courses, which membership

programs, which mentors and all of that other stuff. And nobody really uh the

other stuff. And nobody really uh the best of the best get different, you know, they b nobody's got, none of the good people have one copywriting book.

None of them have one copywriting course. Most of them have, you know,

course. Most of them have, you know, gone into programs and mentorships with several people and they find that somebody's really great in clicks in this area. Somebody's better at teaching

this area. Somebody's better at teaching them how to get gigs, you know, where somebody's better at teaching them how to write stories and somebody's better at teaching them how to do research and

stuff like that. And so, you know, um I think that all of these different ways are, you know, I mean, you have to explore them and find out who and uh

which format again is better for you.

Some people just, you know, you know, they they learn better with YouTube videos than they do reading a book.

Sorry, that was a very long- winded answer. Sorry about that.

answer. Sorry about that.

>> No, but that was really interesting. I I

like it. It makes a lot of sense to me.

I think there's I learned a lot of different things from a lot of different people. You know,

Matt Fury, for example, I spent a lot of time consuming some stuff from Matt Fury. And Matt Fury, I had a lot of I

Fury. And Matt Fury, I had a lot of I learned to love email because of listening to his seminars talking about how fun it is to write emails, you know, and to me the energy that he brought to

the craft when he would sit and think about things. He would visualize, I

about things. He would visualize, I think he said somewhere in the the seminar, you know, you have to imagine the prospect taking out their wallet and taking out their credit card and spending money with you. And I enjoyed

that exercise. I was imagining all these

that exercise. I was imagining all these people spending money and so it was fun, you know. So that for me really is part

you know. So that for me really is part of why I I personally love spending a lot of time thinking about the idea before I write anything. Maybe I'll

write down two or three bullets about the thing I like. And then I will go ahead and just go, you know, go all in and write a first draft after I have a couple of, you know, big big things I'm

thinking about, you know. Um, I learned something from one of my my copy coaches. uh he doesn't have a course or anything. It was just a copy coach in a in a you know in a direct response company I used to work

with and he's very very brutal when it comes to editing.

>> Very very brutal. He would highlight the whole piece of copy and he would just say no that's it. That's his feedback on the whole piece. And I like it too because you know he he actually is funny. We we chat recently you know more

funny. We we chat recently you know more often and I was telling him you know like as friends now not not just as like a like a learning from him. We we chat as friends and I would say, you know, you really helped me in my career. And

he would say to me, you know, I think I was a bit hard on you. And I said, no, I really liked it because when you said no, you forced me to think about this with the critical perspective, with a

very skeptical, non-impressed, not sold, not interested perspective. What does

the copy look like with that lens versus the, "Oh, this is great. Oh, I want to get this out or I want to get paid and just move on from the project." I had that other voice in my head. So that

really helped me become a better editor, you know. So yeah, to your point, right,

you know. So yeah, to your point, right, you pull different things from different people. Matt Fury was much more, you

people. Matt Fury was much more, you know, aspirational energy when I was thinking of writing and that helps me in the beginning, but I I don't think I would be able to use that same, you know, imagine them pulling out your credit card while I'm editing. You know,

I wouldn't be able to bring that into the editing process like, oh yeah, of course they'll want to buy this, you know, this is great. No need to edit this.

>> Yeah. Well, that's why I think, you know, some of the people like they're the best bullet writers in the world, you know, and you know, but they but you know, again, when it comes to copy,

there's headlines, bullets, PS's, you know, closing arguments, risk reversal, and all these other stuff. And that's

why having those swipe files of good, you know, you know, chopped up into different files will help you make it better at the at the one places. And you

can start doing that to hone in on the part that you need to improve. But yeah,

you should be learning from everybody.

And oh, by the way, that's the other thing that really, really great copywriters do is they continue to learn, you know, um it, you know, you know, I I'm in the business, you're in the business, a lot of other people are

in the business of teaching people copy, right? And the hardest sell in the world

right? And the hardest sell in the world is somebody who is already a full-time working copywriter, right? you know they they you know they they don't think that

they can they're going to learn anything new from you now even though if you do so you know you have to get them you have to get them at you know I don't know if you want to call it lower level

market level awareness but you have to you have to get them earlier when they're still at the point where they're growing. Um now that is not everybody

growing. Um now that is not everybody though cuz some of the top copywriters they are paying attention and I used to

make it my job you know because you know I I'm I'm you know my dad was is a legend right you know I mean absolutely and then with if I putting out stuff and

doing my own stuff that's new that he's never taught and everything that that turns it into a legacy you know my son taking it on if he does and adds his own stuff it turns it into a dynasty Right.

>> But so I always found it my job. I never

really gave his speeches unless I was giving it as an example of how I learned to do this and create a new modern version of it. And so I've only done that even once. Everything else

>> but I found I I was like um to to validate you know that I was coming up with stuff something new. If I gave a speech in front of a group of people, my

job was to make the most experienced marketers in the rooms hand hurt from taking so many notes.

>> And when I when I would seem to like somebody who's like a 30-year veteran copywriter who everybody respects going up and like taking notes and saying, you know, go go take some pictures of those slides and stuff like that. And I was

like I was like, okay, I knew I hit my mark, right? you know, and then I

mark, right? you know, and then I realized, okay, I have to back it down and, you know, slow it down a bit and stuff like that. Um, but I think, you

know, it's uh you do need to you need to continue learning period because and you learn from everywhere and everything.

That's that's the problem. You know, if you're learning copy, you're going to you're if you're just learning copy from studying swipe files, right? you're not

listening and paying attention when somebody makes a great comment on the radio or a layman who has nothing or you know a non-copywriter makes a co makes a

makes a comment that makes you sit up and pay attention. Um, if you're not, you know, learning persuasion from all these different, you know, areas in life

wherever wherever anybody is persuading somebody else to do something different, you're going to be at a disadvantage to the people who, you know, never stop learning and you do want to do that. Um,

you know, the veteran there are some veteran copywriters been in the business 20, 30 years and they um they don't stop learning. they're

they're they're trying to pay attention to everything new that comes along. And

I think that's that's a great attitude to have, >> you know, because, you know, I mean, if if you don't adapt, you know, >> you know, I mean, I would imagine that

my dad my dad would have adapted, right?

You know, and you know, to to more modern times and more modern techniques and stuff like that, but the the core fundamentals never change. So one of

there was a story my um Ron Lrand he was a is a very famous and he had this um how to buy money for or how to buy

property for investing course and it was making monster amount of money lots of cash and he said you know what I'm going to hire all the top copywriters in the

world to you know each write a piece and I'm just going to test them against each other and he did and Um, my dad came out way ahead of whoever was number two,

right? You know, it wasn't even like,

right? You know, it wasn't even like, you know, he beat him by 4% or whatever.

It's like he blew everybody away.

>> And he said, you know, all those guys, they they they did this and, you know, they may have had experience in writing, you know, real estate and all this other stuff, but you know what I did that, you

know, that was why I won that. You say,

why? And he would say, I knew exactly what the prospect needed to hear in order to buy. So he was in the shoes. He

was in the mental he was in the mental framework of the person that was there.

And so you know and so there's all these um courses and they you know they teach you um you know okay you need these you know you got to put in these testimonies you got to have risk reversal. You have to

do this. You have to do that and so

do this. You have to do that and so forth and so on. That's all sort of true to a degree. some of the stuff doesn't need to be there, but how much of something they need can be different depending on what it is they're buying

compared to where it is they are in their life and you know what market level awareness they're at, you know.

So, if you're market level awareness um where you know what the solutions are, you just um you just don't know which one's right for you. Three of your testimonials need to be about three of

your five testimonials need to be about hey you know I tried you know 14 or four of these things and I'm you know I learned better this way and so this was this ended this was definitely the right

solution you know the testimonial needs to say basically this is the one that is right for you you know and this this is the reasoning why

you know and you only need one to say yes it worked like as advertised or something like that you know so you know you figure out where they are because

you know this these these people weren't selling to people who are already savvy you know investors they were selling to people who were um thinking about buying

their first investment property what they need to hear in order to buy and you know they need to hear that it was you know it was going to be a safe investment um you know they needed to know that it was you know that they were

going to have support throughout the whole you know throughout the process and that there wasn't going to be any unexpected hidden surprises that were going to ruin the whole experience for them, you know, and they needed more

information because they were going to be making, you know, a certain amount of investment that, you know, represented a good chunk of what they earn. Um, and

you know, again, it's you you just need to understand that prospect so well. So

you say this is what they're concerned about, this is what they're not. So, you

know, they they say $17 is the, you know, the um I forget. I'm slipping my tongue. Uh slipping my mind. $17 is the

tongue. Uh slipping my mind. $17 is the um I want to say throwaway price point, but it's impulse. It's the impulse buy.

Like, nobody cares if what they spent $17 on doesn't turn out to be good, right? So when they buy a book and

right? So when they buy a book and they're complaining and the book is $17, they don't say, "Well, this book really should have been $5." They're

complaining about the time they spent reading. Right.

reading. Right.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> So, what they want to do is say, "This was worth every every minute that I spent reading this book." That's a better testimonial.

>> Ah, right.

>> Then this is worth then this is >> Oh, that's good.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, that's

>> making you take too many notes. Fun.

Like, I'll tell you right now, I'm going to quickly jump in. I've had, not even joking, I've had five questions that I'm thinking I wrote down some notes while you were saying something. I was like, "Oh, this is I really want to know his thoughts on this." And not even joking,

within 30 seconds, you started talking about the thing I was about to ask you a question on. So, there's this inception.

question on. So, there's this inception.

There's this inception going on here in this interview. And I only realized it I

this interview. And I only realized it I only realized it in the last 5 minutes here that all the questions I was going to ask you, you actually, you know, like you almost predicted it. I don't know if it wasn't if it was something that, you

know, but it's it's kind of scary actually. It's really it's a really good

actually. It's really it's a really good demonstration of of you know what we've been talking about knowing exactly kind of what the person that's listening or thinking about is actually thinking about. So that's really good. You know I

about. So that's really good. You know I like that. It's like yeah

like that. It's like yeah >> it's what I want to hear. I mean you know the other thing I think that great marketers do is they create win-winwin situations. It's not a you know it's not

situations. It's not a you know it's not a zero sum game where I win or you win.

you know it is it should be >> you know the the people who watch this should win and get you know some value out of it >> you know you should get some value out of it and you know and I should get some

value out of it and you know that's what you know I I think good marketers try and create a win for everybody and so no to hear somebody at your level turn around and say I'm taking notes and

you're you're you're giving me new fresh ideas that's that helps me it validates that you know what I'm providing is something that you know is useful you

know and that so I I really appreciate that feedback as well.

>> Well it is I got to tell you because I was going to ask you you know how does it look different today compared to the past and when I was going to ask you about that then you sort of started to talk about how it's all about knowing

what the frame is of the prospect as they are right now. So that kind of answers it is the frame back then was they enjoyed reading to the point where it would be something that they would spend more time on whereas today they're more bored. If you're in that frame,

more bored. If you're in that frame, you're actually thinking from that frame, you kind of have the copyrights itself a lot of the time. I think this is something I learned from David Deutsch. He used to say um when I was

Deutsch. He used to say um when I was consuming his content or he is saying right because he still says it um he he says, you know, you know, good ideas when you have a good idea, the copyrites itself.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And so when you when you really know where where something's at, you know, great ideas, I've been saying this for a while now, you know, and I attribute it to David. It's like great ideas write

to David. It's like great ideas write them write themselves. great ideas the copyrights itself you know >> I I I agree with it 100% because you know they people talk about what do you

do with writer's block it's like you don't you know you do enough research where you can't figure you know where your your question should be where do I start

>> I have so much to say where do I start >> and then you throw up on the page and and by the way the you know there's another trick for people where do you

start is there's different hacks for it So, one of the ones that I like to use is you imagine somebody, let's suppose whatever it is you're going to sell.

Let's suppose you're going to sell stereo equipment and you think of somebody who you know is the biggest audio file in your life, right? And

let's suppose this person is, you know, a female named Jane. You say, you know, you just start off, you say, "Dear Jane, I just read some amazing stuff that I thought you'd be really interested in because I know that you like, you know,

audio file stuff." And then you just start writing. You write all the things

start writing. You write all the things the points you want to make. I heard

about this, you know, this really unique new type of speaker that's, you know, does all of this and you just write the entire piece, right? You may end up writing a page and a half that you throw

away, right? Um, until you get to that

away, right? Um, until you get to that point, you go, "Oh, this is the point I need to start with." You know, and I think John Carlson or somebody calls it clearing your throat and stuff like that. But you just start with that hack

that. But you just start with that hack and you will just start writing. But the

point is you have a you don't start writing till you have a ton of stuff to say >> and you're like you know I hope I can fit it all in. And you said something earlier about you know the space in

cutting you know your headline down >> and I remember once my father's assistant um you know uh was going for a new job and she says you know your dad's not

around everything. So I and she had

around everything. So I and she had worked with me. Um so she wanted to and this will tie down a few things that that I said. Uh she she asked me to

write her a testimonial letter, a reference. So I wrote the letter and I

reference. So I wrote the letter and I and I knew exactly what these people wanted to hear. That she was a self-starter, that she could handle team projects and manage stuff, but she also

was a team player. So if you just gave her, you know, marching orders, she wouldn't gripe and complain. she could

handle all of our projects, you know, u when it she was trustable. When it came down to the money, it, you know, everything was down to the penny, you know, it was accurate and all this other stuff. And I knew at one point they were

stuff. And I knew at one point they were going to be wondering, well, if she's so great, why don't you work with her? And

I said, if she still if she if we live still lived in the same state, I would hire her in a heartbeat, you know? So, I

was I was answering that objection right before it happened. And I said to any >> everything's copy.

>> Yeah. And I said to to to anybody who, you know, um to anybody who's reading this, if you're considering it, if you hire her, you know, for even, you know, give her a trial for even one week and

it doesn't work out, you call me and I will send you a hundred bucks out of my pocket, you know? Uh that's how assured I am of doing this, right? But I spent

the most time in writing that that reference letter trying to get it into one page because I didn't want, you know, I know that this person is going to be this is another thing I learned from my father. Understand what they're

going through and where they are when they receive your sales message. This is

a sales message, right? To say hire this person. So they're sitting there looking

person. So they're sitting there looking at a stack of references and letters and all this other stuff. So, if you know, one of these is a fivepage reference letter, they're probably not even going

to they're going to they're going to want to quit in the first paragraph, but if it's one page, I know they're going to commit to the one page. So, I got the, you know, I got to the they got the page. Well, she went in there and I got

page. Well, she went in there and I got this great thank you note. She says, I went through the interview and they said, you know, okay, we had to interview because it's part of the process and everything, but to be honest with you, you were hired as soon as

we've read this reference from this guy named Bog. Amazing.

named Bog. Amazing.

That's >> And I was like, you know, I was like I was so proud of it. I was like, "Yeah, you know, but the whole point is I mean, I understood the the the the what what's because I've hired people and I, you

know, this is the problem. You know, you wonder will they are they reliable? Do

they show up on time? Are they

trustworthy? Are they a team player? Are

they, you know, do they get along with their fellow co-workers? Can they handle and work independently, you know, and just take care of tasks when given the goal?" So I made sure that you know she

goal?" So I made sure that you know she was able to handle we just handle projects and we can handle the whole thing off to her and if it was something for which she was going to be a member of a team she did it and you know did it

with you know she was she was happily a member of the team and all this other stuff. Oh you're probably wondering you

stuff. Oh you're probably wondering you know I'm thinking you know and you know your objection is well she's so great why didn't you hire her? I handled that objection all that other stuff. But it

all started with where we talked about earlier making them to decide to read it. That was part of my dad's editing

it. That was part of my dad's editing process. Create enough eye relief so

process. Create enough eye relief so when people look at it, they go, >> "Okay, I'm gonna try reading this. You

know, it's, you know, these are some short paragraphs and there's some subheads and stuff like that. Let me

take let me take a look at this and see see if I'm going to going to do it." So,

all of that went into just a letter of reference. and you know and it turned

reference. and you know and it turned out to be you know what they needed to hear uh in order to buy you know and this is what they needed to hear in

order to hire you know and that's it's it's so applicable and that's the other thing that you know my dad was a fantastic persuader all around you know

in person for do getting people to do all kinds of stuff in fact I asked my mom you know why'd you go out with dad she goes it was amazing he could persuade anybody to do almost anything.

And um there was a he was doing the the world's most widely male sales letter in history, which was a code of arms promotion. And I I won't go into the

promotion. And I I won't go into the long story, but he he generated a fake computer letter. Before the computer

computer letter. Before the computer letters, it was obvious that when they said, "Dear Matthew," Matthew was kind of like a different kind of font. This

is when the technology sucked. And so,

what he would do is he would sell, you know, uh it's your last name's Vquin.

I'm just trying to get it pronounced properly.

>> Yeah.

>> Fulfin.

>> Okay. So, he would say, "Dear Mr. Fulkton," and so what then what would happen is he would sell it. He would

send that out to a hundred different people or a thousand people or 10,000 people and they all like, "Okay, he's directing this to me because back then the technology was so it was a fake

computer personalized letter." Anyway,

but the solution to mailing that he would get he got some great results and he get some bad results on mailings. And

my mom was the one who came up with the solution for that. She goes, "Well, you bonehead. If your name is Miller, you

bonehead. If your name is Miller, you know, you know, your name's not that common so that people don't want to buy a code of arms. But if your name's Halbert, you know, it's it's a little bit more unique and you want to buy the

code of arms. It's, you know, for multiple reasons, you know, talking, you know, um conversation piece, a little bit of pride, stuff like that.

Anyway, so he goes, "Ah, that makes sense." So he would order the lists and

sense." So he would order the lists and um they were all done in, you know, he would order them and he would just mail all the halirds.

Well, somewhere, this was Ronnelly, and they were, I think, in Washington at the time, DC. And the problem was they had

time, DC. And the problem was they had just switched over to a new fangled system, and they were reordering the list in zip code order. And my dad

couldn't use that. My dad needed them sorted in because this wasn't back in this is in the 1970s.

And so he he he needed them to do it in um put them back in name order for him, at least for him. And you know, and so my dad said, "I'm going to go fix this."

He hopped on a plane. My mom said, "I don't know how he did it, but he came back and it was in name order again, everything that they needed. And he's

going to, you know, he's going to tell these people, "No, I need you to sort this this way." and I need it done this way and if you do so this is, you know, we're a big mailing house. We're going

to be renting these names and it's going to mean a lot of money to you. He knew

what they needed to hear in order to give him what he want.

>> So he he sold them on it too. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So he he learned, you know, I mean, so I always say you learn persuasion techniques from your parents for the most part until you get a good mentor, you know. So if somebody screams and yells to get what they want or

threatens to get what they want, that's what you learn to do. Well, I learned a myriad of techniques from a guy who's figuring out this is what they care

about and so forth. And so, um, you know, it it was it was definitely a very unique upbringing. I will say that. But

unique upbringing. I will say that. But

um yeah, no it's uh you know good good copy is you know understanding uh what people need to hear in order to buy figuring that out and it's not about

creative words you know and you know I I mean when you buy something or something attracted you it wasn't because it was because they they made a light bulb go off in your head and think about

something in a different way. It is

because something oh that makes sense.

You're never like, you know, because I was so impressed with his vocabulary.

>> That's good. Yeah, I like it a lot.

That's I think I think that more copyriters need to spend time, you know, with um >> the fundamentals. I think a lot of the copyriters these days that are coming into the industry, they're learning the structures um that, you know,

templatized sort of structures. There's

a lot of swipe. There's a lot about how to prompt AI. a lot of these sort of um I was like you were talking about earlier all the writers that were competing against your father, right?

They were all coming with tacticals and the structures and the Lego blocks of writing and he just knew exactly what that prospect needed in order to buy.

That's where I think more copyriters need to spend their time. I mean that's that's what I definitely am going to start doing more of as well. So So when you talk about systems, you know, you mentioned the word systems quite a few times. the way that you see, you know,

times. the way that you see, you know, the process. There's a lot of there's a

the process. There's a lot of there's a lot of systems behind it. Not just like a swipe or not just a tactic. It's a

system. What does what does that look like? Because for me, I've also spent

like? Because for me, I've also spent the last few years building it out as a system. Because I find that when you

system. Because I find that when you have too much of a script word for word, it kind of, you know, you can't actually apply it in in different context. So,

I've also been using the word system.

So, what do you mean when you you know, your process is it very systematic?

>> Um, the problem is it's yes and no. So I

want to step back to one thing you said just one second ago which was um teaching copyrightiting. So my father

teaching copyrightiting. So my father would what he would do which is what I do with my son. My son taught wanted me to teach in marketing. So I'm doing boron 2.0 and I'm going to ask you a favor right

here uh in front of everybody in the world which is um I'd find somebody who's really good at what they do and at their area I would say would you give him a training on that area. Right? So,

I'm not only training him, I'm getting the best people in the world to, you know, give him a little training. So,

would you give him a little training, uh, you know, in a in a video?

>> I'd be honored to.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay, great. So, what I teach him, what I, when I was learning, my dad didn't start with what's a headline, everything. He would turn around and go,

everything. He would turn around and go, "Okay, this is this person. I'm going in to do this. What do you, you know, what do you think they care about the most?"

You know, and then I would sit there and say, "Well, this is what they probably care about right now. This is their big concern. This is their worry. It was

concern. This is their worry. It was

studying people. That was one thing. So

that's part of the system even though it's not a systematic thing. But some

stuff was system, but you have to understand when it's not needed and when to pull it. So I'll give you I'll give you one that I do um I've been teaching

lately and because you know I don't think um so I give a much more example training on this which punches everything up bullets are many headlines

right you know it's feature and benefit right but then there's there's the feature of the benefit and then you can either say the benefit of the benefit or you keep saying so what okay so you say

this watch has is you know it's comes with a you know a you know a high density you know uh stainless steel bracelet. Okay, that's the feature. The

bracelet. Okay, that's the feature. The

benefit of the stainless steel bracelet is so that it won't scratch, right?

Okay. And so you know what's the benefit of it not scratching? Okay. Holds its

resale value longer, right? Looks good

20 years later. Okay. So feature benefit benefit of benefit and that's usually where a lot of people stop. I say what's the emotional benefit there right the

pride in you know the pride you have when you're it looks so good that your son is so h is so happy to wear it when he inherits the watch right or the that

you know that you know he knows it's still looking good and then sometimes sometimes there's a benefit of an emotional benefit so I didn't use that one in that example the example I'll

give you now is it's a self-defense course and I'm going to give you five judo techniques that show you how to that's the that's the feature. The

benefit of it is going to show you how to take down opponents twice your size.

Okay. Okay.

>> That's the benefit of that. The

emotional benefit of that is confidence and lack of fear.

>> Right.

>> The benefit of that emotional benefit is what can you do when you don't have a lot of fear about some other things?

Well, when I'm traveling around in the country, I'm not afraid that I might took take a turn down an alley, right?

Because, you know, that might be the wrong alley.

>> You might, you know, I might be at a bar and I see somebody I want to hit on, but I don't, you know, but I don't know if, you know, she's waiting for a date that's going to come in and get mad at

me, or I, you know, she might actually be married and I'm worried that her husband's going to pop in and kick my butt or whatever, right? There. So the

point is when I do this there's a benefit a feature that's always one but there can be multiple benefits of that feature okay and then there can be multi multiple benefits of these benefits and

then there can be multiple emotional benefits and there could be bene multiple benefits of the emotional benefit. Okay so

benefit. Okay so >> I love it. Yeah.

>> Okay. And so what happens is then what I do is I string together the most powerful of these you know because what are people buying on emotion

right and so you know the the you know so the the difference is you're giving you're in and by the way the other thing is you have to give people their thoughts you can't you know if you turn

around that's another very key fundamental of of marketing is you give them their thoughts you can't say you can't assume that they're going to naturally come to the conclusion usion

that this watch is going to hold its resale value longer because it's got a stainless steel bracelet and will look good. You have to tell them it'll be

good. You have to tell them it'll be harder to scratch. Now, here's some more benefits of that, by the way. Okay, so

you got to remember there's lots of benefits and you can string them together with the stainless steel bracelet. It's, you know, you can shower

bracelet. It's, you know, you can shower with it and so you don't leave it on the on the counter in the gym where it's stolen, >> right?

>> Okay. So, you know, and so what you can do is say with the stainless steel, it doesn't scratch easy, which means it'll last longer, hold its benefit longer, and you don't have to take, you know, you don't have you're less likely to

lose it because you took it off when you were swimming or going into the gym, you know, and so, you know, and then, you know, and it'll be something that, you know, will still look good when your

when your when your when your son inherits this, you know, this time piece, you know, and, you know, >> weaved it all together all the way through. And you can weave it together

through. And you can weave it together all the way through. And then you can do all the other things. You can put in numbers, right? You know, it's a, you

numbers, right? You know, it's a, you know, you know, on average these things are, you know, um, it's a, you know, it's got a hardness rating of eight. So,

which means only a diamond would scratch it, whatever. You can put in proof

it, whatever. You can put in proof elements in there. You can put in numbers. You can you can punch it up and

numbers. You can you can punch it up and stuff like that. So, you're writing long and then you're hacking down to what you really would be painful not to put in

there. Okay. But so that's a system.

there. Okay. But so that's a system.

Okay. But does that is that a template that you're going to steal from another watch ad? No.

watch ad? No.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. So it doesn't sound like anything else that other people are saying. And

um you know so that's what I believe in about systems. So when it comes down to um stories, when it comes down to headlines, it comes down to bullets, it

comes down to that um you know the the PS kind of sounds like a template, but the truth is you don't have to just you know that's what you use in an

emergency, but you just realize that you know you're kicking people off the fence with the PS and inspiring them to realize that if if they're going to if

they don't if they they excuse me, they might miss out if they don't read this and see if this opportunity is right for them. Everybody is reading it. Everybody

them. Everybody is reading it. Everybody

pays attention until the moment. And

this is important for your editing. They

are looking for the spot to say, "Oh, I can read this and I'm not going to miss out on anything that I would care about." That's when they stop reading,

about." That's when they stop reading, right? They they stop reading at that

right? They they stop reading at that point. So, you don't give them that

point. So, you don't give them that point. at the point that you think you

point. at the point that you think you might be giving them that point. That's

when you set in another anchor or you talk about something else. Um, you know, open up another loop that they're going to be wanting to be interested in, but make it about them because opening up a

loop about the story of, you know, me boating with my dad is is not nearly as important as the the story about me boating with my dad that led to a $1.7

million marketing breakthrough. That

might be of benefit to you. Yeah. Right.

>> So, you know, so I believe in systems, but I don't believe in making them so rigid that everything sounds the same.

So, you could take that formula that I gave you for writing a um it's I call it a bullet matrix and you could you could go into that and then, you know, your

bullets are not all going to sound exactly the same. And some of them are going to have, you know, 20 benefits.

Some of them are going to have one benefit. Some will have an emotional

benefit. Some will have an emotional benefit. Some won't and stuff like that.

benefit. Some won't and stuff like that.

But what's going to end up h and you can reorder and reward it, right? You know,

>> and um so it's not it's not it's it's a system and um for those for for and you should have you know I have systems for the majority of all the components of a

of a of any kind of piece. And then

again going back to the fundamentals and what you need to hear in order to buy, you figure out I don't need this from this person, you know, or for this price point, I don't need risk reversal, you

know, or you know, there's a a great um uh closing argument u that my dad gave me one time and was explaining and I don't think I've ever heard him say it

um or detail it. It's the what if I'm right, what if I'm wrong closing argument.

>> Now I'm excited. So, if I turn around and I say, "Hey, you know what? I want

you to join my group. It's only x amount of dollars per month and um and it's going to teach you how to, you know, write copy that beats everybody else's

and everything." And so, but you know, I

and everything." And so, but you know, I want you to think about this way. What

if I'm wrong? What if what everybody says about Bond Halbert that I've paid them all and you get ludicrous with this. I lied to all of them, right? you

this. I lied to all of them, right? you

know, I paid them to say these nice things and, you know, I I bribe, you know, I bribed them to say these nice things. None of them are true. I have,

things. None of them are true. I have,

you know, I I spent, you know, 47 years in the industry. I didn't learn anything new. Um, you know, um, you know, my dad

new. Um, you know, um, you know, my dad bragging about how I was a really smart and wise and sharp person. He he's just, you know, he didn't really think of me

as any smarter than the family dog and all of this other stuff. And it's

totally all BS. In fact, I'm a terrible person. I might even take all your money

person. I might even take all your money and run off to South America and blow all of it, you know, doing drugs and, you know, and, you know, sipping my ties

on a beach and laughing the whole way.

In that worst case scenario, what you're going to do is, you know, you are out a whopping, you know, whatever, you know, the price the price of a, you know, less than the price of dinner at a fancy

restaurant in any town in America, right? But what if I'm right? What if

right? But what if I'm right? What if

what I teach you, you know, shows you how to increase your results by even just 2% on everything you're going to write for the rest of your career,

right? in adding all of that up how much

right? in adding all of that up how much that is worth to you where you know and I'm promising so forth you know at that when you think about it that way you

can't afford not to give this a shot okay now do I need to go through all of that to sell you a $17 book >> no do I need to but do I need to go

through all that and you know and so you know here's an here's an example of when you do and when you don't some people's programs and offers are different you So, you know, ours is like, you know,

there's no monthly minimum, right? So,

that doesn't mean that you're not locked into buying it for a whole year. Other

people's the, you know, it's 12 months, but you buy 10 months at a time. You you

you you pay for it for 10 months all up front and then, you know, you have to renew. So, that one you might want to

renew. So, that one you might want to use that argument, right? What if you say, you know, what if all these people uh, you know, that you know, all these testimonials I got are fake. In fact,

these and get ludicrous. the in fact the images are probably that you know imagine they could be made by AI and you know Jane and and John and Michael and Xavier they don't really even exist

right and I wrote the testimonials myself and you know and I have no ability to help you and all that you know and I took I you know the the I

even forged the checks that you see in my pictures and all of this other stuff.

>> Yeah. Those are somebody else's stripe bank balances and >> Yeah. And I you know and I and you know

>> Yeah. And I you know and I and you know what and I did what everybody else is doing. These were all test payments that

doing. These were all test payments that I put through myself and stuff like this and it was all fake. But you know but what if I'm right? What if what I

teaches teach you changes and gives you that you know the ability to choose your clients from you know and you know and gives you a steady stream makes you so

good that you are on the fast track to being the top in the you know at the at the in the top writer in the industry.

what if what I teach you, you know, does all this and you explain and gives them the benefit that they are dreaming of having from the end of it, you know, and so it it was, you know, it's it's a

great kind of, you know, closing argument, but it's a system. So, you

know, and so what I might say that sounds ludicrous in one one thing will it'll still be say something that sounds ludicrous. It's it's a system and a kind

ludicrous. It's it's a system and a kind of a formula, but it doesn't sound the same as every time because you know when you know there's an old joke, but wait what if wait here there's more you know

for the old infomercials and everything >> and I always wanted to create the infomercial and I what I wanted to sell was common sense you know you know does every time you put in plates into the cupboard do they all fall out and crash

you know every time that you you try and flip an egg you actually flip it onto the stove you and stuff like that. Well, with common sense,

you you won't have to do this ever again. You know, you'll be able to turn

again. You know, you'll be able to turn the tap off when it's done filling the water bottle. You know, because all the

water bottle. You know, because all the because all of those infomercials basically show people lacking common sense, right? You know, they do the most

sense, right? You know, they do the most stupid things. Yeah. Oh, that's funny. I

stupid things. Yeah. Oh, that's funny. I

used that. But wait, there's more. on a

recent sales letter. Like I put the I put the GIF I put a little like image of it right at the section where I wanted to sell my bonuses. I was like, "But wait, there's more." And I But that's

using humor, right? That that's

different from actually sounding like everybody else. And by the way, you can

everybody else. And by the way, you can go if you go far back far enough, you that's a better template to use. If you

go back to where, you know, if you go back to like the rich jerk formula now, it's not that, you know, there's a whole generation of people who've never heard of it, you know, >> going back pulling it.

>> Oh, I I love picking up, you know, uh, magazines that have direct response ads in them that are from like the 1960s, you know, everybody, you know, the majority people who are buying those,

you know, they're they're retired and no longer doing those things. And so it's it doesn't you know you know they and they they inspire and give you ideas.

They're they're still fantastic and stuff like that. But that's what I mean by systems is the example of the you know the these these kind of um ways of thinking and going about it but you know

cutting out the this part you don't need adding and punching up this other part and stuff like that. But so the system is think about the benefit, think about the multiple benefits that you know or

the features, the multiple benefits from that, the multiple benefits of those benefits. When you run out of benefits,

benefits. When you run out of benefits, what are the emotional benefits of that?

Then what are the benefits of those emotional benefits? And then stringing

emotional benefits? And then stringing together what's the most powerful thing.

And so that's what I believe that that's my idea of a system for writing, you know. But the one thing I don't find is

know. But the one thing I don't find is like, you know, there's, for example, there's the hero's journey, right? We

all, we've all heard that a million times. Well, sometimes you don't really

times. Well, sometimes you don't really have a hero's journey and you're just kind of, you know, you're making it up.

Um, and I, and by the way, I, you know, it's not there. So, you know, everybody's got the I was sleeping in my car story, you know, and then I was, you know, you know, and so people when it

comes to me, I don't have that, you know, well, how'd you fall into copywriting, Bond or, you know, how did you learn how to do direct response marketing? You know, oh, just do what I

marketing? You know, oh, just do what I did. Go be born somebody else's, you

did. Go be born somebody else's, you know, I can't say that, right? So, I

don't have that story. It doesn't fit with me, right? So I have to use I have to go and use something different. So

you learn all these things and then you say this element's useful in this in this offer you know with these you know and I call them assets is what I call

them. So you know it's an asset if

them. So you know it's an asset if you're if you're um if you're let's suppose you're teaching copywriting.

It's an asset if you can turn around say, you know, I failed um high school English, you know, because one of the things is it always takes, you know, you

um you want to sell them in a way where they're like um um the reason for the reason for that that hero's journey

starting off with you are terrible at something is because of two things. Um I

was terrible at that too. So if you I you know I was terrible at English and if you can become a copywriter I can I I can it gives me inspiration and hope.

The other one is I was great at high school English and if you can make money doing it I should probably be even better. Right? So that's the the that's

better. Right? So that's the the that's the psychology behind that. And you know um you you know and you take them from a you always want to go from a place

that's worse than they were or the exact place that they are that's terrible to a place that's better than they dare dreamed.

>> That's the principle I see. Yeah.

>> That that's a that's an old school principle and you still want to use the modern one. You say, you know, I was,

modern one. You say, you know, I was, you know, um, you know, so and they they say, you know, I was struggling to learn, you know, marketing, you know,

and um, you know, and I was, you know, um, I went to go do I went to go learn marketing and, you know, I tried a couple of I tried a couple of um,

copywriting instructors and Matthew's the one that actually made it click for me. and you know, I'm so glad that I

me. and you know, I'm so glad that I went through his course and you know, I've gotten a few clients and I'm happy.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm

talking about turning around and say, "My friends were all laughing at me when I said I wanted to be a copywriter. My

wife was saying that if I didn't get a real job soon, she might leave me. My,

you know, the um, you know, the the um my bills were piling up. I had paid you know you know I had borrowed money from my in-laws to take a you know to to hire

a mentor and things weren't working out and everything and that's when I you know I discovered this one like you know the Gary Halbert letter and everything started to click and when I did it and I

started understanding and I tried it and then you know I could took these you know or I went with Matthew and I started learning about you know how you know systems for getting new copy

clients And now I have more clients than I could possibly handle. In fact, I am referring the clients that I can't handle to other copywriters I know. And

they're even offering me referral fees for it. So I not only there's the

for it. So I not only there's the emotional benefit, there's the benefit behind the emotional they're paying the copyriters that were laughing at me are not paying me for referrals.

>> Yeah. And so and and so what happens is, you know, you were taking it to a place where better than they dare dreamed, you know, because you got some people who are hoping to get their first copywriting client and now they're >> That is deep.

>> Yeah.

>> Now they're just flooded with it.

>> I love that. It's like it's such a it's such a it's so subtle to say that the, you know, the copyright is now paying me referral fees, but like just adding that extra adding that like they're paying

you as well. That's that's that's fantastic. That's so smart. Yeah,

fantastic. That's so smart. Yeah,

>> bringing this back around. Let's imagine

we're putting these talking points into AI and I say I want you to write a story and it starts about a copywriter who invest you know borrow who is you know staying up at night because he's he or

she has been uh invested all of the money that they borrowed from their in-laws to you know on in a mentorship to become a copywriting course and you know did all this and then discovered

this course and discovered this and that and this is now where they are and they're you know they've got you know more clients than they can handle every Monday morning, they set an hour and there's 15 people trying to get into

that appointment so that they can possibly hire this copywriter and then >> start charging for the appointment.

>> Yeah. And then you start charging for the referrals and everything and you put all of these points into AI >> versus, hey, I want you to go in the

style of Gary of uh Gary Halbert and I want you to write me a sales letter that says that I'm a good copywriting coach and if you do this, you're probably going to make some good money.

those talking points are going to what AI will pull out will blow away what everybody else is doing when when they're all using the same standard 50

50 prompts or 100 prompts that you know that they're getting from an AI coach.

So >> they bought it for $17 too.

>> Yes. So unique unique ideas like that, right? Unique talking points, um, you

right? Unique talking points, um, you know, again, unique editing, you know, being, you know, better at that and unique storytelling, you can still use AI to speed up the process and use it as

a fantastic tool. But you, if you want to be good, you're going to have to be better at one of these, one of those elements we talked about earlier.

>> That's just so good. I love it. I've got

so many notes today. It's it's

fantastic. This is this is a copyrighting masterass. You know the

copyrighting masterass. You know the people use that word and they say it's a master class. This is this is the master

master class. This is this is the master class on copyrightiting for 2025 and 2026.

>> That means a lot. I know that you know I really like it.

>> No, it's a master class for 2026. Okay.

We're at the end of >> Let me say it. Let me say it again for the, you know, for the intro. We're

going to add it to the intro afterwards.

Okay. So,

>> yeah. No problem. No,

>> this No, wait. Just Just let me say it.

So, we add it as the editor. We're gonna

put it in the beginning of the the video.

>> Okay.

Wow. Wait, I actually can't take it seriously now. Hang on.

seriously now. Hang on.

This might be actually what what you've said today might actually be the masterclass for copriters in 2026. This

is fantastic stuff.

>> Okay, there we go.

>> Hey, well, you know, >> but it's true. It's true. I genuinely

feel that way. I like I love this. This

is so good.

>> Oh, I believe it. I mean, but you know, look, it's it's, you know, it's my job to show that, you know, I always say, you know, having the last name Halbert gets your foot in the door. Being a

Halbert is what gets you, you know, people begging you to come back. Um,

but, you know, I know that you have interviewed some worldclass copywriters, so I'm, you know, you know, hearing you say that means a lot to me.

>> Yeah, I mean it. Where can people find you if they want to learn your secrets, learn your systems, get your perspective over all these years of being in this industry?

>> Well, I I'm on socials and um I'm not in competition with the other Bond Halbert because there is no other Bond Halbert.

So, you can you can follow me on on the socials, but um I do have a website, bonhalbert.com. Uh right now it's you

bonhalbert.com. Uh right now it's you know the the tech is a little wonky. I

think the site might be down because of some it looks different on different browsers for some reason. But you know, sign up at bonhalbert.com and you'll hear more about me and you know I'll be

sending out more you know chances and opportunities to work and learn and stuff like that from from me if you're interested in it. And um we also uh I

still uh you know I co-own the Gary Halbertletter.com and um with my brother.

>> Is that garyhalbertletter.com or the Garyhalbertletter?

>> It's thegaryhalbertletter.com.

He was very specific about wanting the in there. Um and uh we also own

in there. Um and uh we also own Halbertising, you know, with an S. And

um Halbertising is a group where what we're trying to do is take copywriters who have studied courses and are learning stuff and write and take them

from the you know making it all click for them by looking at their copy going over their copy and stuff like that and then also you know helping them understand about getting jobs and you

know how it's different you know and it's because I feel like a lot of people are doing things in the wrong way. I see

them in online groups and it feels like, you know, 5,000 fishermen, you know, with in a in a pond and there's one there's the fish down there as the business owner and there's one of them,

right?

>> And, you know, it's like, you know, okay, wait a minute, you know, wouldn't it be better to be one fisherman in a pond filled with, you know, business owners

>> and stuff like that? So, you know, um, hit me up in any of those things if you want.

>> Cool. We'll put the links in the description. That's fantastic. And I've

description. That's fantastic. And I've

I've um purchased um a course from Clayton that's um in that's that's hosted at hellizing.com. And I I got to say it's definitely some of the best material I've gone through. So, you

know, from from what I've so far gone through um you know, that that's on helmetizing.com, it's fantastic.

>> He's actually really fantastic. And oh,

you know what? There's one thing I wanted to say out of and it's not one of the expensive things. You know, when we talked about handwriting out um ads and stuff like that, there is one thing that

makes it even more valuable. I wish I could was the one who who thought of this. We had somebody purchase one of

this. We had somebody purchase one of our breakdowns of our father's ads. And

what we do is we go through it like we say this is the the market. This is

where the leads came from. This is what their this is what the overall goal is.

And we go through explaining why this line is written the way that it is and why the this word was chosen over a different word. And we say this is where

different word. And we say this is where he's going into this part of the copy.

And the the the student was so so sharp.

They listened to that when they handcopy the ad. So they not only are reading it,

the ad. So they not only are reading it, they know writing it, they knowing why they're writing these words. And I was like, that's really smart.

>> So there there are ad breakdowns on there as well, which you know, you know, are are extremely valuable just to understand the the ad breakdown. But if

you if you're willing to give the handwriting exercise a shot, that is a great way to supercharge it.

>> Thank you so much for today's conversation. It was really insightful.

conversation. It was really insightful.

I learned a lot. And uh I hope everyone watching, you know, you guys gain some some value from this as well and that you you know, you go and learn more from Bond. So yeah, thanks so much. Really

Bond. So yeah, thanks so much. Really

appreciate it.

>> My pleasure. I was Thank you for having me.

>> Y cool. We'll have to have a chat again sometime soon. Maybe we'll talk about

sometime soon. Maybe we'll talk about the secrets to how to be fishing in that big pond or maybe we'll talk about something else. I'm curious to know, you

something else. I'm curious to know, you know.

>> No, absolutely. any any aspect of direct response marketing you want to dive into with me where I think the future's going you know I mean you know the changes that will be on the horizon how to get clients anything like that I'm always willing to do it

>> put in the comments what are your questions put in the comments and maybe we'll bring Bon back for for conversation about some good questions yeah thank you be honored fantastic yeah nice chatting with you today I'll see you soon

>> nice chatting with you thanks