Unlocking CRM Growth: Max Holland’s Klaviyo Playbook

We try and have it all uh on our platform. Um so from marketing,

platform. Um so from marketing, fulfillment, but yes, CRM. So my team uh up in Manchester will be coordinating the email send campaign and the the automation strategy and the customer

segmentation for not only our brand but England cricket, you know, Republic of Ireland football, Fireball in the Netherlands. The price drop

Netherlands. The price drop notifications are heavily underrated especially for brands that have large amount of SKs which you know and if your price is actually moving quite a lot then that that can be a great one to to build.

>> There's a saying if you torture data long enough it will confess to anything which completely is true.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had it testing in the background and it runs three or four stages of of testing. We didn't lay a finger on it. We didn't do anything, but it gave us a 14% uplift in signups,

which for something which we didn't go looking for in the slightest, Claio just suggested it. That's a cool feature.

suggested it. That's a cool feature.

There's no way of arguing that. That's

cool.

[Music] All right, so welcome back to yet another episode of the Clay Geeks. Time

flies uh since we started this podcast and a lot of things have happened. If

you watched last Cla Geeks episode, for us, this is like a highlight. I think

when we started out, even before we started out, we were geeking like >> this would be so awesome to have some people from Claio join our podcast and even interviewed one of the co-founders

already, which I thought would have happened at episode 20 or 50 to get some mileage in, but >> a lot of things have me fasttracking and maybe because of of getting this cool

>> Clavio legend himself, >> Claio award legend uh thing, it's it for me it still feels interesting as well.

But maybe because that it is helping us to to go a bit quicker on things. I

don't know. But anyway,

>> someone posted on LinkedIn the other day is like something doesn't add up here.

It's like you guys like I'm looking at all the episodes and all the the quality of the content and this doesn't seem like a 4 episode podcast. It seems like you've been doing this forever and already getting, you know, the likes of

of of Jamie and and Grant kind of being um our guests on on the K London episode. So, you're right. It does feel

episode. So, you're right. It does feel a bit surreal. We were kind of joking around in the first episode about that, but I'm super super pumped that we're doing this. And today on Claio Geeks, we

doing this. And today on Claio Geeks, we have a very special guest. We're going

to be joined by Max Holland, senior CRM manager at Castor and formerly at the Hut Group, my pro team. So, I'm going to do a quick intro and then Max will intro himself as well. If you don't know Max,

he's actually been at K London live on stage. Know that I've seen him in 2024

stage. Know that I've seen him in 2024 and I've seen him a couple of weeks back in 2025. I don't know if you've been

in 2025. I don't know if you've been before, Max, as well, but most recently, he was on stage alongside Jamie Dominichi, who we also interviewed on Clavio Geeks, sharing how Castor has been pushing boundaries with Claio's new

updates with RCS, WhatsApp, the Omniverse, and all the cool things that they announced. They were one of the

they announced. They were one of the brands to actually test all these new features. So, we're really excited to

features. So, we're really excited to chat with him and to see how they're pushing the boundaries of of Claio with uh with Gastor. So, in this episode, Max is going to talk all things retention.

He's gonna share a few tips and tricks, maybe a few secrets as well. And uh

yeah, let's uh let's give the uh the mic to Max.

>> Yeah, thank you for that, Bogdan. Yeah,

you're right. It's uh twice at K London now. Um which is both of the years that

now. Um which is both of the years that I've been with Castor as a business. As

you mentioned, previous to that, I was at THG uh and sort of learned my trade with the the My Protein brand and the the nutrition uh division of of that business, which is obviously uh you

know, gone from strength to strength and a really good proving ground to learn all things e-commerce, you know, particularly from a CRM perspective. Um

but yeah, genuinely so happy to to be on the podcast with you guys. We we sort of talked about this at K London and really happy to to see it come to come to fruition. I know I've got some big shoes

fruition. I know I've got some big shoes to fill in terms of guests that you've had on recently. Um, so I don't know how don't know how useful that will be, but no man, you're right there in the elite

guest. Don't worry. Um, so

guest. Don't worry. Um, so

>> it's Yeah, >> I think one of the and I think in that sense it it is it is also man we're in the day-to-day we're doing the work we're operating. So it doesn't matter if

we're operating. So it doesn't matter if you're like CEO of a company or not.

It's about like what do you do on a day-to-day basis? What are the

day-to-day basis? What are the experiences you've had that can kind of like help others make better decisions as well. So it doesn't matter if you're

as well. So it doesn't matter if you're just I don't know been doing that for some time. Um if you're not a CEO

some time. Um if you're not a CEO whatever it it's about value. So that's

why we're also asking the people that regardless of what title can potentially add some value in this conversation. So

don't worry about that. Always, always.

Max, before we deep dive into all of the questions we pray for you today, we're going to talk about strategy, creative campaign execution, a bit of advice that you have for the new generation of of CRM marketers. I wanted to see if you

CRM marketers. I wanted to see if you can give us the quick version of how you found your way into CRM and email marketing.

>> Yeah, it's uh I suppose a story that that probably, you know, a lot of people can relate to. Some people set out with this very specific dream of of working in e-commerce in particular or uh you

know a specific channel or a spec a specific area within that. I stumbled

into it to a degree. Um my background was in when I graduated out of university I was doing uh essentially sports sponsorship and partnerships. Um

my background had sort of been in in education around sport and business. Um,

and I'd had a few a few agency jobs uh between up in Manchester and and in London. Um, and came across the Hook

London. Um, and came across the Hook Group, THG, which was I suppose what I consider my my first proper job or the first rung on my career ladder properly.

Um, and joined them with the uh with the role of doing sports partnerships and sponsorships for for that brand. I

honestly I don't necessarily think there possibly was a full-time role in that.

And I ended up moonlighting with the uh CRM team for the business at the time, which was, you know, I think there were three people in the CRM team across the the entirety of the business, which, you

know, probably sounds average for a lot of companies now, but given the scale of, you know, that that business would go on to achieve. Um,

>> it's it was it was tiny in comparison.

So, I ended up moonlighting and just helping out a little bit with some campaigns and some, you know, some data stuff which which they were doing and essentially migrated closer and closer to getting my hands on on all things CRM

and um yeah, ended up looking after CRM and a bit of retention stuff for uh my protein, was there for for 9 years in total and um you know, always with that

sort of particular interest in in that case sports nutrition but all things sport and made the jump over to uh Castor which which is another really exciting brand based in Manchester uh

about 2 years ago now. Um so you know a similar sort of uh journey there taking that hope hopefully taking that brand from strength to strength and uh you know getting my first real hands-on

introduction to to Claio in the process.

>> That's awesome. Wow. Thanks for that. Um

I think that kind of leads us quite nicely into our first question which is something I'm really curious about. You

know you've worked for 9 years for THC right? That's that's a long time. I'm

right? That's that's a long time. I'm

I'm betting you learned a lot of and you know I I used to be a huge fan of of all the emails and and the the messages I would get from My Protein. I actually

used to buy a lot of My Protein myself.

Um so I would want to ask you what you know what's we would want to ask you what's the biggest difference working for such a huge operator like TAC for 9

years versus now a brand which I would say it's a lot more fastmoving like Castor you know when it comes to managing it the retention.

>> Yeah. Honestly, there are a lot of similarities to be honest in terms of the you know number of accounts and the uh importance of scalability. So with

again with my pro team when I joined the business I think they had uh five or six websites and by the time I left they'd internationalized it to the stage where we had 40 north of 40 uh each of which

with individual accounts and you know um >> yeah email client schedules. Yeah, a

hell of a lot of management required.

Um, and there's a big similarity in terms of how things operate at at Castor Door in that we have our own brand product similar to to what I'm wearing here, just the the sort of Castor

mainline brand as we call it. Um, but we also operate the e-commerce platforms for a lot of our sporting partners. So,

for those that don't know a lot about Castor and who we are, let me just give a real quick introduction. Um, it's a sportsware brand, British. Um, it's just shy of 10 years old. Um, and yeah, we

we, you know, position ourselves as a slightly premium product compared to some of the other, you know, brands available on the market. You think of the likes of Nike and and Adidas, it's uh, you know, in a similar sort of

category, but a slightly elevated product quality with the the materials that we use and the, you know, the fabric tech that goes into our into our products. We do also, you know, a lot of

products. We do also, you know, a lot of the growth of the brand has come through uh partnerships that we've established with teams in elite elite football,

elite rugby, cricket, uh motorsports, F1 and yeah, as part of that, we actually manage the e-commerce platforms for a lot of those teams. Uh so, you know, in

in the Netherlands, for example, you know, Fire Nord, uh we run their run their club shop and therefore my CRM team essentially runs their email campaigns as well. Interesting.

>> Yeah. So, again, you know, similar to THG, we've we've got, I think, 30 32 uh unique Clavio instances with, you know, a different brand with a different set

of products, a different, you know, tone and look and feel and how we communicate with customers. So, that's a that's a

with customers. So, that's a that's a really big similarity between those those two companies, the the scale and the, you know, the challenge in my job of of ensuring that whatever we're

doing, we're able to to scale it and roll it out really quickly. Um I think probably one of the big differences which is in a way similar in tied to that um we have a lot of you know

products which have a relatively short shelf life. So there is sort of

shelf life. So there is sort of seasonal, you know, a seasonal t-shirt or a seasonal range that we drop for bring in summer one year and then it's a, you know, there's a fresh launch the next year, whether that's with our teams

with, you know, a kit which maybe lasts for a season or whether it's our own brand where we do, you know, a spring summer collection one year, autumn, winter the next year. And that can make it a little difficult in terms of

setting up flows which last for a long period of time because the product range is is ever shifting. Whereas if you do have a range of products which is relatively static from one year to the next. For example, in the sports

next. For example, in the sports nutrition space, you can start to make some assumptions around, you know, we've had this this whey protein product which has been live for 10 years and we can start to really understand if a customer

buys that, what are they likely to buy next?

>> Yeah, that that shows some really rich foundations for planning some of those journeys. Equally, on the flip side of

journeys. Equally, on the flip side of that, where where our products are maybe a little more uh a little shorter shelf life, that can be difficult. there's

ways to do it, but you know, that's one of the differences. Certainly, it's uh makes for some interesting uh creative thinking.

>> So, interesting. Just a followup, like you're managing a lot of different e-commerce stores basically.

>> Are you doing also the marketing for those or like uh CRM for that as well or is it just fulfillment and stuff?

>> Yeah, so it's it's all of that. We we

try and we try and have it all uh on our platform. Um so, from marketing,

platform. Um so, from marketing, fulfillment, but yes, CRM. So my team uh up in Manchester will be coordinating the you know email send campaign and the

the automation strategy and the customer segmentation for not only our brand but England cricket you know Republic of Ireland football, Fireord football in in the Netherlands, you know.

>> My daughter actually is a big big fan by the way. So

the way. So >> right well there we go. That's that's uh >> that's interesting. So actually

operating an agency within a company as well. Yeah, again that's exactly right.

well. Yeah, again that's exactly right.

It's >> it's hugely beneficial in terms of having that um scalability and and sort of uh the economy of of that platform which is great but it poses loads of you

know a lot of challenges for us to manage all of that uh all of those decisions all of those customer flows opportunity mixed with mixed with difficulty as well. branding, tone of

voice. Yeah, I think both B and I also

voice. Yeah, I think both B and I also we also have our own agency so we know what the struggles are.

>> Yeah, for sure. And you know, I think Max was saying on the Kona stage as well that do you guys have like a playbook on how you on board all these new stores that you work with. So then you kind of know, okay, this is step one, step two,

these are the flows we need, like foundational flows we need to add to the account and this is how the campaign calendar should look like. Or is that quite a challenge to adapt yourselves to every new store? Yeah. So, it's it's a

little bit of both. Bogdan, you're

absolutely right. The the essence of our business is to have that I'm not going to say one sizefits-all, but something out of the box which you can roll out and say, you know, on on day one. I

think I mentioned this at K London. It's

not uncommon for us to have at the start of a football season or the start of a calendar year for us to have half a dozen new instances of of you know clavio instances but new websites in

total to have to service and get live in a pretty short space of time. So it is critical for us to have something which is out of the box and looks like best practice that we can that we can scale.

Um, and you know, fortunately from our perspective, Clavio allows for that where we can clone, you know, clone flows, clone email templates, um, email customer segments, things like that. Uh,

and and allow that to be really scalable. At the same time, it isn't one

scalable. At the same time, it isn't one size fits all. There has to be, you know, different elements of branding, the the tone of voice in which you speak to customers, some of the phrasiology

which gets used, lots of obviously lots of detail that the products themselves.

So it gets us some of the way there being able to have this out of the box playbook. A lot of which is sort of

playbook. A lot of which is sort of learned by trial, you know, trial and error over over years and sort of trying to establish that. But no one gives you that, you know, nobody comes on on day one and says, "Right, this is this is

what perfect looks like. Just go and replicate that 30 times. Obviously,

obviously that doesn't happen. We all

know that." So there is an element of us uh you know triing and erroring as as you guys will do in in your agencies and and people that are listening with their

own brands but certainly having an idea of what we want almost what we want an out of the box solution to look like in broad terms is uh is interesting and and and really helps us.

>> Oh cool oh so I I'll quickly go to the next question. So your inbox is full

next question. So your inbox is full your road map stacked you you have thousand things you have to do. How do

you personally prioritize what gets done first in CRM? Like what's your framework or gut check for deciding what matters most?

>> So it's uh again an interesting question. I think you sort of you know

question. I think you sort of you know obviously there's there's shifting you have to read it within shifting business priorities. Of course there are always

priorities. Of course there are always different pressures, different conversations, different almost hot topics which which come with an element of internal politics. But aside from that, you're generally trying to look

for the size of the prize, right?

Where's the where's the biggest impact that we can have for the relatively lowest effort? I heard you guys talking

lowest effort? I heard you guys talking about it on one of your one of your earlier shows. Um, but almost that low

earlier shows. Um, but almost that low hanging fruit, you know, what can we do to make a real impact? In our example, um, you know, some of our accounts have, you know, hundreds of thousands of

customers associated with them. Some of

them are much smaller. you know in terms of prioritizing decisions that we can make you know where can we have the biggest short-term and long-term impact and we sort of try and road map it from

there. There is an interesting sort of

there. There is an interesting sort of counterbalance to all of that across all brands but particularly in the sector that we sit in within sport whereby you have the customers are incredibly

passionate particularly if we're talking about um our our pro sports brands football teams rugby teams by their definition the customers are incredibly passionate which is a great strength in

one respect it means that you know if someone buys a a fire or shirt from us they're unlikely to go and buy an Ajax shirt the next week that That obviously doesn't that obviously

>> yeah exactly um you have to you have to know that market obviously um but it keeps >> add some quick context for those that don't know soccer in the Netherlands

Ajax and Fard are like the biggest rivals like they end up fighting with each other like people even fer being in Rotterdam people sometimes even don't want to go to Amsterdam where Ajax is

based so there's a big rivalry between those things you will not see somebody wear both shirts if they're really true fans. So,

fans. So, >> good good one to really understand your customers better.

>> Uh I kind of interrupted you a little bit, but I wanted to get some context for those that don't understand this.

>> A lot of our audience is >> US. So, good good one kind of clarifying

>> US. So, good good one kind of clarifying that.

>> Absolutely right. Yeah, it's a it's it's a good a good point. But yeah, obviously because of the nature of that that that fan in the sports sector, they are generally highly invested. You know,

that the retention is is probably going to be high. But you need to you need to understand how you can best communicate with that customer. Um and it does make you know even where we have smaller accounts where you know it could be a

lower tier English soccer team with a you know a very localized fan base that doesn't mean that you can you know it that may be one of our smaller accounts but the level of passion that the fan

base has means that yeah your execution still has to be on point. It's a bit of a a a double-edged sword in as much as that that fan the c the passion within

the customer is absolutely built in and hardwired. Um so retaining them can be

hardwired. Um so retaining them can be easy but it also means that your execution has to be on point and there isn't a lot of sympathy for you know messaging which goes ary or very

particular details. We have, you know,

particular details. We have, you know, we have a partnership with a football team in Scotland, uh, Rangers who have a big rival uh, across the city of Glasgow in Celtic and there are certain colors

that we can't use, certain, you know, phrases and references that that we can't that we can't bring up. So,

understanding how we how we speak to the fan um, and the customer in those contexts is really interesting. in our

mainland brand, we maybe have a little bit more freedom there, but it's it's all baked into that same pie of, you know, try to identify what the biggest wins are, but at the same time, not

foregoing the the passion that we know exists within those smaller segments of our databases as well.

>> That's crazy. Wow. Like you you guys must have like some some insane organization across everything that you're managing. But not only that, but

you're managing. But not only that, but the communication across the CRM teams as well must be on point. Like to be able to to control that level of quality across all the different brands like you're saying, oh this brand, we can

mention that and we actually have to avoid those callers like you know I know you know we we manage like 20ish brands and even that can sometimes become a bit of a like oh wait what this brand

actually are not allowed to go into very aggressive marketing and whatever. So

like um you how how is that how how are you guys managing that? Yeah, it's it's a good question. It's a case of and again, you know, this isn't necessarily unique to us. There'll be there'll be

people listening and yourselves and you know on agency side, even brand side that can relate to different elements of this. It's not a unique castor

this. It's not a unique castor challenge, but it is just around having high levels of investment and high levels of communication. It's it's lots of shared Google calendars that that the clubs have visibility to and that people

internally, whether it's our trading teams, our marketing teams, our CRM, uh have visibility of. It's uh planning and you know obviously a lot of planning in advance. Yeah, it's it's just a case of

advance. Yeah, it's it's just a case of being very switched on to to to your sort of minor details. Um and you know as I say people listening will be able to site examples in their own business

where you know there are there are key moments in the calendar or key uh product details whatever it is. It's

just uh it's just about keeping that that level of of detail. Um, and you know, without flying the flag for Clavio too overtly, the platform does allow us

to to do a lot of that in terms of, you know, universal content that we can use or having specific templates set up or building rules around um product flows

which which dynamically recommend products or certain certain products rather than others. If you can set up your account in a way which allows that scalability uh that is certainly some of

the battle uh and makes makes life a little easier. It gives you that

little easier. It gives you that framework from which you can you know you know that you're within the right ballpark and you can concentrate on some of the smaller details without it being a complete you know rebuild or or or you

know starting from scratch every time you're building a campaign or a flow.

>> Yeah 100%.

>> Cool.

So, taking it a bit broader, like where most of like where do you see like most of the low hanging fruit right now for most e-commerce brands?

>> Well, I guess it's it's that's a difficult question and sort of depends on on what the what the brand is itself.

Um, I know from our perspective, automation is is some very lowhanging fruit. We've uh we've certainly been

fruit. We've uh we've certainly been guilty of the past and we won't be the only ones of becoming very reliant on outbound bulk campaigns to try and drive revenue and and appease

>> free and free.

>> Exactly. Yeah. And to try and hit short-term numbers um at the potential detriment of the the longer term goals.

Um, so I, you know, I certainly think from our our perspective, building a more robust network of of automations that really speak to a customer is I don't know if I'd call it lowhanging fruit because it's not necessarily the

easiest to it's not necessarily the, you know, the cheapest labor investment to pull off uh in an effective way. Um, but

I do think there are really good returns to be had there, certainly from our business. And if you're willing to take

business. And if you're willing to take that longerterm approach to things and and not necessarily be over obsessed with, you know, I've certainly worked in businesses where there is a huge amount

of pressure on daily targets, even hourly targets. Um, if you're able to

hourly targets. Um, if you're able to have a sort of a slightly longer term view than than just obsessing over beating last year's, you know, year hour

on hour comparison or day on day comparison. Um,

comparison. Um, >> yeah.

>> Yeah. Obviously, c certain businesses that I've worked for are sort of, you know, drilling down to to that level, which is great in some regards, but obviously can limit long-term uh long-term thinking. But yeah, there's

long-term thinking. But yeah, there's there's certainly wins to be had there if if brands are willing to sort of have that more, you know, that longer term view of of that customer relationship.

The way I normally see like especially if you're talking about cla automations flows it is a maybe compared to most campaigns the payout is not direct but

since they're running for a longer time the ROI only gets better.

>> Yeah.

>> Unless you build something that doesn't go get sent out to anyone put in filters and it's it's like removes everybody from the flow and no emails get sent out. Most of the times an investment in

out. Most of the times an investment in automation is something that because it's keep it keeps running the ROI only will get better over time. So it's

basically a logic maybe you need to cast a wider like ROI net there like instead of saying okay it needs to perform in day one or the first hour and maybe a

month or maybe 3 months but in 6 months most of the times it's a no-brainer. Um

but yeah, it's also priority like if you have uh I don't know you guys probably have a lot of campaigns you're building if I hear that correctly. How do you like how do you get the time take the

time to also add to this because it will hurt other things in your in your road map as well you cannot do at that same time >> in terms of that that sort of balance between what bulk campaigns and automation is that is that is that what

you mean?

>> Yeah. So, what I basically was referring to that on your on your in your case specifically, uh, because you're, yeah, you need to keep going with the campaigns, sending them out for all

these different brands, you're probably already full at a 90%.

That's an assumption I'm making, but assuming they're like there's not a lot enough time to also be spending a lot of time on on building flow. So,

>> it's like a Yeah.

>> No, it's it's exactly right. And I think there's a bit of an attitude shift that probably comes with that. Like I say, we certainly in the past have been guilty of um you know, again, I've heard you

guys talking about it on previous episodes, that sort of effort versus outcome type of debate. We've certainly

been guilty in the past of even on you know small accounts with small databases that that you know the the return for an outbound bulk campaign might be it might

be $100 euro it might be you know $250 you know relatively relatively small amount you know we've certainly been guilty of almost jumping through the hoop of you know if we say that we've said if we say that we've sent the bulk

email for this new product then no one can be no one internally can be critical of us because we've played our part and we've done our job And you almost you can it's very easy to fall into that

trap of you know just tick the box and get the ball out of our court sort of thing. But like you say, Omar, the if

thing. But like you say, Omar, the if you're able to sort of take that wider wider view of things uh and it's it's you know an attitude decision that that you as a CRM professional and you know

the the environment around you need to sort of take collectively if you're able to sort of start you know start to analyze well is my time better spent building this one campaign or or or three campaigns this week for this

particular brand or is it better you know building a flow that okay for the first week might only produce X but over the course 12 months, 24 months, the long term uh

will be will be much much better for for that brand and sort of build those relationships and drive revenue with the customer. You know, that's something

customer. You know, that's something that we're certainly trying to do. We've

we've re uh reconfigured our structure internally to do that and sort of allow us to have more focus on automation and, you know, almost opt to not build too many bulk campaigns. And it's not easy

to do that. You know, it's very easy for me to sit on a podcast here and say to every, you know, to all of our listeners, just stop sending campaigns.

Obviously, that's not, you know, that's not practical by by any means. Um,

>> exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you you can make as long as you've got the buy in from the people around you, you can sort of make some decisions as to how you allocate that resource. Uh, and as long

as you can convey a compelling business case for that, which probably, you know, probably does involve some long-term thinking rather than being tied to an immediate short-term revenue tracker or

whatever it is, um, it's possible to do that in in the right circumstances. You

know, you've got to balance the the priorities which exist in your particular business. But, uh, yeah,

particular business. But, uh, yeah, >> nice tip. So, combine those two. So send

a campaign to a specific group of people um that you can then put in an automation because then you're building it, sending it out, seeing if it works and then oh it works. Let's put this now

in uh in an automation and then runs automatic from there. So that might be a way to actually capture both.

>> Yeah. Repurpose from campaigns to flows.

We do that a lot as well. Like we we take a lot of campaigns that we've done over the course of the year and we try and see which ones have performed well and are relevant to add on post purchase. then kind of see if they um

purchase. then kind of see if they um you know it saves time and obviously you can use something that you know works quite well. But what I wanted to ask you

quite well. But what I wanted to ask you Max and this is going to be the last question of this first sort of strategy prioritization section is in a very simplistic way really cuz a lot of our listeners while we do have you know

brand owners and agency owners with like huge agencies managing dozens and dozens of accounts I know for a fact also from K London people talking to me there's a lot of junior marketers out there really

learn wanting to learn how to be better at Claio that was think one of the main questions of our first episode as well.

So I wanted to ask you like for you guys managing you know Castor and so many other brands that you partner with again in a very simplistic way what are the first 30 days of CRM look like you know

what are those steps that you're taking you know is it you know let's do the account setup set up clone the segments you know set up the flows what what does that look like in the first 30 days for you guys >> yeah I think that's uh firstly a really

good question and and sort of you know well well framed I think that's that's essentially it so it's uh certainly from our perspective effective because we're often starting accounts where obviously

we have a a net subscriber base of effectively zero. Nobody signed up to,

effectively zero. Nobody signed up to, you know, to give their consent to that new instance. Our usual focus in the

new instance. Our usual focus in the immediate sense is around how we how we drive customers to sign up. Now, in our case, we're really lucky in that we have those partnerships with brands where we're able to leverage,

>> right, >> free tickets, giveaways, experiential things, you know, whatever. But there

are, you know, there are incentives, whether it's discount based, whether it's contentbased. Um, you know,

it's contentbased. Um, you know, essentially you can do all the best work in the world in terms of your your segments and your flows, but if no one's in your database, that doesn't equate to

anything. Uh, so step one is is, you

anything. Uh, so step one is is, you know, trying to get people to sign up using whether it's a couple of pop-ups on site and offering some sort of incentive. you know that the listeners

incentive. you know that the listeners will be able to to sort of identify what the relevant um incentive would be for for their business and how they can best achieve that. But that's certainly part

achieve that. But that's certainly part one. Um yes, it then moves on to I guess

one. Um yes, it then moves on to I guess a core uh group of of flows that we can that we can clone. So it's, you know, relatively simple stuff, but it's some sort of welcome journey. It's some sort

of um retargeting campaign or campaigns around browse and basket abandon. um you know potentially

basket abandon. um you know potentially some upsell depending on on what your range is from from a a post-purchase perspective just nailing the absolute uh

core fundamentals from an automations perspective. Um and then it's you know

perspective. Um and then it's you know then our our attention tends to turn to email templates and making sure that we can you know create something which is fairly compelling from a from a visual

and a content perspective in that first 30 days. you know, it's about

30 days. you know, it's about establishing what assets we've got, what creative, you know, what the look and feel of our of our emails is is likely to be. There's possibly an element of

to be. There's possibly an element of testing which goes with that. Um, in our case, a lot of collaboration with the with the brand and with the the team that may be involved externally. Um, so

there's quite a lot to fit in there, but I do think you can go a long way just by within that first 30 days. Yeah. Drive

customers with some sort of incentive to ensure that you are building that database. If you can leverage, you know,

database. If you can leverage, you know, paid channels to to support that, that's great. Not always practical and not

great. Not always practical and not always realistic for all brands. Um, and

yet essentially, uh, that, you know, out of the box best practice set of of emails, uh, from an automations perspective to to engage with customers at those core moments when they're, you

know, first on site or first signing up and when they're sort of in that consideration phase around uh, browsing basket abandon.

>> Awesome. That was a really well put out answer. Thanks for that, Max.

answer. Thanks for that, Max.

>> Cool. Um,

>> no, >> Omar.

>> So, I think it's good. Yeah. Maybe let's

just move to the next section. We we

still have a lot of question want to ask you.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, so um let's go into the creative and campaign execution uh section.

>> Yeah.

>> Which you guys are doing a lot of. So,

um uh you want to fire off the first question?

>> I do. Yeah. So, so it was initially phrased differently, but now kind of talking to you and knowing you guys manage a few more brands as well, I I was curious. Well, my initial question

was curious. Well, my initial question is how do you keep messaging fresh at Castor, right? How do you avoid send

Castor, right? How do you avoid send sending things that basically sound the same, look the same all the time? But

then I want to add another layer to that and I want to ask how do you keep messaging fresh AC at Castor and across all the brands that you're managing and not fall into the trap and kind of having things kind of sounding a little

bit the same across all the different brands especially as most of them are within the sort of sports vertical um and is AI part of that?

>> Yeah, absolutely. So to to give some honest context around this, I don't think we've been brilliant at this for for a while. I think part of that comes with the volume of of accounts and

campaigns and messages which we have to build. It is a really difficult

build. It is a really difficult challenge to ensure that everything looks and feels unique. there's an

element that you know by which particularly from a mainline perspective where we are trying to build a brand and speaking a particular tone of voice um conveying particular consistent themes to to our customers around you know the

product quality the fact that we're chosen by elite athletes and make them want you know that 1% better you know the fact that it's it's the sort of best choice that you can make for your training in terms of the the apparel

that you wear there are consistencies um however I would be lying if I was sitting here and telling you that that we're we've got a long and proven track record of of creating lots of varied

content that that you know is consistently uh consistently new and feels different to the consumer. Um AI

is certainly playing a role in that. You

know there's there's AI functionality built in as you guys will know within Clavio. You know we've even um we've

Clavio. You know we've even um we've even got a a a chat bot on on chat GPT that is able to speak in our tone of voice. We've given it our brand

voice. We've given it our brand guidelines and and sort of allowed it to uh to inject I guess ingest who the essence of us is as a brand. So if we do need additional you know copywriting

resource AI can assist with that whether it's within the Glavio platform or externally. Um so yeah it is an ongoing

externally. Um so yeah it is an ongoing challenge and and you know companies and people that are listening to this will be able to identify with that from a you know resource perspective. If you've

got, you know, if you've got a load of a team of copywriters and and uh, you know, creative and design people there that are able to to to give you those bits that you need, that's great. But a

lot of the time you are ending up, whether it's recycling imagery, whether it's, you know, trying to tell a very similar story, um, using different different words, AI can can certainly

play a role in it. But, uh, it's it's not an easy not an easy challenge by any stretch.

>> Yeah. No, I I I can definitely relate to that. having you know sort of on the

that. having you know sort of on the agency side it's it's it's a similar similar challenge but I guess for us is is slightly different because you end up kind of working with different verticals which kind of give you that sort of not

pressure the um it pushes you to think differently you know like writing copy for a fashion store versus a pet store you you can't really make the mistake of having them sound the same so yeah uh

Omar do you want to um >> yeah yeah well I think for I was actually when you were talking I was like oh wait to what Max was saying earlier um as

well like people will probably follow one of the brands and not all of the brands. So even if you're sounding the

brands. So even if you're sounding the same, how big is the chance that there will be in all the datas like are they getting all these emails? Uh so the chances probably probably going to be a

bit small. So I think there's probably

bit small. So I think there's probably uh from your end maximum and maybe answering this for you but probably also like how much input output uh how can

you scale this in a way that it doesn't hurt but it it it allows you to be quicker and easier on things. Um

>> yeah I had a question like go ahead.

Well, I was just going to say really quickly um yeah obviously personalization plays a bit of a role in that we have that we have some data on customers in terms of even if I'm speaking them speaking to them from our

mainline brand perspective, we can in some instances have understanding that, you know, this person is a a cricket fan or an F1 fan, we can speak to them differently from that perspective. That

that's just comes from, I guess, that that range of accounts and breadth of data that we that we have got in some areas. Um so you know again listeners

areas. Um so you know again listeners will be able to um think of their own adaptations of that but there will be ways in which they can you know speak to that customer based on what they've bought before what they've browsed

before things like that. Sorry.

>> No need to say sorry. No great.

>> So I think one of the topics I'm really passionate about is loyalty. I'm just

curious yeah your take what's your take on loyalty in 2025 and and beyond like is points perks VIP or just great customer experience.

>> Yeah. So it's again really interesting.

I think I've mentioned that we've sort of restructured our team a little bit to to facilitate some of these conversations and loyalty is is certainly a big part of that. Um you

know there is obviously that age or that old debate around whether loyalty is exists as a platform or or a sort of state of mind. We're trying to do a little bit of both. We're looking to to

on board a loyalty platform at the back end of 2025, back end of this year, which certainly plays a role in that.

And it's been really interesting to see some of the, you know, some big brands, uh, Gym Shark, ASOS have of both launched loyalty platforms in the last couple of weeks, which, you know,

multi-tiered points collection, you know, all singing, all dancing, lots of promises. uh some of which are, you

promises. uh some of which are, you know, probably haven't been fully outlined to the customer yet, but it's it's sort of sign up and and you know, we'll give you the world. Um, which is really interesting and and that's

certainly one way to go about it in terms of a a platform. Uh, as well as that, you know, loyalty extends beyond just the number of points which a customer's got in their account. It's

how do you speak to returning customers differently to to prospects and and um you know essentially giving a slightly different experience in whatever form that looks like to to those customers

that that you know have already made the decision to invest in your in your brand and sort of be you know be ambassadors for for what you stand for. So it's a bit of a juggling act between both of

those things. We, you know, certainly,

those things. We, you know, certainly, as I say, are looking at bringing on a platform which we want to be, you know, fairly simplistic, fairly easy to understand. You know, one of my favorite

understand. You know, one of my favorite examples from a loyalty perspective, if you think of the the great loyalty schemes, there's there's one certainly in the UK, maybe across Europe as well,

um a a chicken restaurant called Nando, and it has a it has a loyalty card. And

why is it good? Because you get free chicken. that you just know that's it's

chicken. that you just know that's it's super simplistic, right? It's not you don't have to there's nuances to it, but if you were explaining it to your friend at the pub or or at the bar, you know,

why would I why would I be part of that loyalty scheme? You get free chicken.

loyalty scheme? You get free chicken.

There's there is a beauty in the simplicity of it sometimes. Um, so we want to we want something which is something which is akin to that. We've

got loads of things that we can tap into, as I say, with, you know, tickets, experiences, meeting athletes, content, loads of things that we that we can put on there. What we want to try

and do is make it one pretty simplistic offering to say, if you're going to be part of our loyalty scheme, here's the reason. And outside of that, customers

reason. And outside of that, customers who have shoed with us previously, we we do want to treat them slightly differently for it could be early access to sales. could be the way that we speak

to sales. could be the way that we speak to them in terms of customer service, whatever it is. Um, but I think there has to be or from my perspective, I like the idea of it being relatively simple,

not uh, you know, not an incredibly convoluted um, prospect for loyal customers, if that makes sense.

>> 100%. Um, and you're speaking my language basically. This

language basically. This >> is that free chicken free chicken your language or just loyalty in general?

>> Yes. Well, I think that one of the persons that actually was at the meetup, >> they're working at Loop as well, a conversation we had, we've had one of the Clavia meetups and which we we

talked about loyalty as a as a concept.

And I think even I had I already had my my preset of rules and and like thoughts about it's more than a program. It's not

some software that you install. It

should be geared towards the customers.

But one thing that she basically said was if you're going to build something with loyalty, it should be something that whatever they're particip participating in should give them a way

to experience the brand better. So free

chicken. Yeah. So the more loyal you get, the more chicken you get, the more you experience that brand. So whatever

you're doing allows them to bring them back into that using the product and having a better experience with the brand, whatever that might be. And I

think simplistic is sometimes difficult more difficult than to come completely go out of your mind and and add all these major rules and make it really uh

extensive uh in the way you set it up.

But yeah, I completely resonate with what you're saying. Um it's an interesting thing.

>> Thinking about it, you know, obviously there's a gamified element to to a lot of loyalty programs these days and that is that is great. I don't want to sort of sit here and and try and just wave the flag for the most simple and basic

of schemes. There's obviously use cases

of schemes. There's obviously use cases for all these, you know, all the different possibilities. And I know when

different possibilities. And I know when we first sat in a sort of ideation session a few months ago to, you know, what could a loyalty scheme look like?

There's a hundred ideas. is a whiteboard filled with, you know, filled with things that we could do or would do or how do we implement or, you know, and it's great to have that as a road map, but I I think what you've said there,

Omar, let people experience, let your loyal customers experience the brand a little bit better. That's a really good >> single sentence to sum up what loyalty should be. uh you know if they've

should be. uh you know if they've already made the decision to be part of your brand and stand for stand for what you stand for in whatever context that is let them experience it a little bit

better and I think that's a a pretty good short motto to stand by.

>> Yeah, I like that. I think it it's bits of pieces as well. Like last year I was also Kon or maybe it was two years ago I sat in a session on on loyalty and one

thing that they said was like if you're doing loyalty what makes someone loyal if if they have a tight budget and they save up all the money and they are only able to buy once a year but they've been doing that consistently for the last

three or four years. Does that make them a less loyal customer? So, is it only tied to monetary uh efforts that they're making, which kind of like broadens up

>> what does loyalty entail and how do you maybe not discriminate people that might have less to spend there as well. So,

>> yeah, that was last. I remember that session. It was um

session. It was um >> yeah, an interesting point. I was

thinking about the same thing.

>> Yeah, loyalty is a is a big topic. Omar

and I are still um still planning our episode around it. still figuring out how to best approach it.

>> Yes.

>> But um kind of going into some reflections, Max, you know, you've been with THC for for 8 nine years, you mentioned, you know, two years with Castor. Hell, you have more experience

Castor. Hell, you have more experience than than I have been. I've been in CRM for 6 years. So, I'm really curious, you know, looking back, we talked about it in one of our episodes as well in

episode three. um you know what's one

episode three. um you know what's one mistake or belief that you had early on in the world of email marketing CRM that today you simply don't believe it

anymore. It's like you turn out to be

anymore. It's like you turn out to be completely wrong. Something that you

completely wrong. Something that you used to do but now you're like can't believe that I used to do that. Like

that's completely wrong. So, you know, for me to give you an example with me is like one one thing I used to do when I first started in in mall marketing. I

used to exclude customers over the last 30 days from all campaigns, which is like, you know, it's mad to think about now cuz like when you look at the data, you figure out a lot of that repurchase rate comes from the cohort of customers

in the first 30 days. And obviously

depends on a brand by brand basis. But

kind of curious what you know, you worked in this sort of very specific vertical like what what was it for you?

>> Yeah, it's a it's a really good question. I'd probably answer it in a

question. I'd probably answer it in a slightly different way. I think it rather than it being a single action like uh you know excluding customers that have purchased in the last 30 days.

I think it's maybe for me more of a mindset that we can often fall into as as marketers and particularly those in in digital and data companies that you

can almost make if you become really reliant on or really obsessed with individual figures, you can almost make them tell whichever story you want.

Yeah.

>> Um, and I think it's I think it's more of an attitude of looking at a bigger picture. Like I've had conversations

picture. Like I've had conversations with people in the past where, you know, uh, how would you describe it? Here's a

here's a list of emails that we sent over the last month. Um, which is the high which has got the highest open rate. Okay. Therefore, that's the that's

rate. Okay. Therefore, that's the that's the best. Like there's so much context

the best. Like there's so much context that goes into things like this depending on you know people you know customers that you're speaking to you know send times content of emails the

wider scale like there's a hundred things that feed into individual data points and of course like stats and those things are going to give you a really handy indication of what you know

at a top level view of what may be working better than than other things.

But it's just understanding or or having the willingness to take a little step back and try and paint the full picture with with what what it is that you're looking at. Um, you know, there's

looking at. Um, you know, there's there's loads of examples of it, but it's it's maybe not being too encouraged or too discouraged by individual pieces of data and being willing to try and see

a slightly bigger picture with, you know, what else is happening in conjunction with with that individual data point that I'm seeing. Um it can it's probably quite hard to to sort of describe but you certainly get a feel

for it after a little while. It's you

know um yeah a sort of wider wider lens view on on data is how I would describe it. I think

it. I think >> I I completely agree honestly like it's it's so easy for us as well when we're spending all day into this software to to make decisions purely based on what

we're seeing in there. Like you say you know oh these we send these five campaigns this one had the highest open rate so we should do more of that. or

even like going taking a step back. It's

like, "Oh, look at that." Like our revenue from Clavia was this much this month and last month it was a bit higher. So, you know, we're doing worse.

higher. So, you know, we're doing worse.

It's like learning to be a bit a little bit more open-minded. And I think what one of the recurring themes for for Omar and I over all of the episodes is just don't make any assumptions. You test

everything, challenge everything, and try and look at every single piece of data to form a bigger narrative than just the little kind of like, you know, circle that you're going you're looking through.

>> Yeah. I think that's >> Yeah. Such a good point.

>> Yeah. Such a good point.

>> Let's quickly quick quick quickly add into that first thought that came to mind when you were saying this. There's

a saying if you torture data long enough it will confess to anything >> which completely is true.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So you can make it tell a story that you want to have. But the one of the things that back in the days when I also was doing more only conversion rate optimization using Google Analytics a

lot. you had this option to add

lot. you had this option to add annotation to the timeline which goes into that same thing you're saying like you need to have the bigger context like was there a big seal going on was there

like what what made this move so sometimes this it seems like a lot of things are happening but maybe there was something else that was causing that that thing and not that campaign so um

cool so um next round I just want to before finish off we have some rapid fire questions for you >> okay >> just some question answer whatever comes to mind First, uh, your most favorite

clavio integration, you name it. What

what's what what is it?

>> Oh, it's a it's a great question. Um,

what is it?

>> So, you have reviews, you have wonderment, you have loop, you have a lot of like other tools that that enrich the graveyard, gorgeous, whatever.

>> Do you know what we we don't have we don't have a ton of them and they tend to be our bigger platforms. They tend to be gorgeous. They tend to be Shopify. We

be gorgeous. They tend to be Shopify. We

have we have a triple whale integration which we've recently put in which is quite quite interesting. I'm going to say our triple whale for for data attribution but I know that Claio are

are working on and that's launching a uh you know a new attribution model for you know multiple phase attribution. So um

excited for excited to have triple whale excited to potentially you know look at the clavios alternative as well. Oh,

>> cool. Subject line pet peeve.

>> Uh, >> what what instantly makes your eyes roll?

>> Cap.

It's inconsistency of capital letters.

Either do it or don't, but do it the same every week or every day.

>> It re it winds me up something chronic.

It really gets to me.

>> So, you're a really detailed person.

>> Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah, I am. I don't

mind which it is, but pick a lane and stick to it.

>> Right. Cool. I like that.

>> All right. What about you?

>> Um, all right. We're going to more difficult territory. Last campaign you

difficult territory. Last campaign you saw and thought, "Damn, I wish I would have thought of that." Can be an email campaign.

>> Yeah. Do you know what this There was a The first thing that springs to mind is a Patagonia email which um the creative on it just looked absolutely sick. They

they'd sort of weaved in uh the patterns on the on the clothing they were selling into a uh like an image background and had products um like some product

details with uh like weight and and thickness of the fibers and stuff like that. It looked it looked outstanding.

that. It looked it looked outstanding.

So, a shout out to Patagonia for that.

>> Awesome.

>> If you could we need to get someone from Patagonia on the on the show come join us on the next podcast.

Um, if you could only keep three automations, which one would make the cut?

>> A welcome flow. Am I allowed? I mean,

I'm order confirmations. We've got to we've got to keep them. It would

probably be a for our business a price drop notification. It can it can drive

drop notification. It can it can drive serious revenue in in really short periods of time, particularly where we're on cyclical products which might be coming to end of season or something.

Uh, so price drop notice would be would be one of them. Yeah, the price drop notifications are heavily underrated, especially for brands that have large amount of SKs, which you know, and if your price is actually moving quite a

lot, then that that can be a great one to to build. Um, cool. And last one, if Claio would be able to give you a magic

feature today, what would that be?

>> Uh, really good question. What would it be?

>> I know. I stayed up all night thinking of these.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking some sort of some sort of easy way to identify who are your best customers might the top 5% of the it's probably

not the best answer, but that's genuine.

>> We were part of some sort of AI workshop Clavio has done and um something is coming. So

coming. So >> even that um are you already using marketing analytics at this point?

>> So we are yes. Um, honestly given the workload that we've got, we probably don't give it enough enough time, but we do have the functionality live on Clayio. Yeah, I know there's stuff with

Clayio. Yeah, I know there's stuff with RFM that we can do.

>> Yeah. So, it does give you some uh some things, but make sure that if you're maybe we do a podcast on this as well, but make sure that you do update the recency numbers there because most of the time they don't make sense in the

default settings. So, all right. Can I

default settings. So, all right. Can I

ask one more question? I need to know we need to >> asking me go. It's your podcast. What's

the Yeah, it's our podcast. Anyway,

what's a what's the most favorite uh cla feature right now or maybe the most used one right now?

>> So, a really cool example off the top of my head. Um we had a proactive AI prompt

my head. Um we had a proactive AI prompt not long ago. We went into uh our signup form for our our castor.com site. Uh the

main pop-up which appears on on the homepage. uh went in to do like a

homepage. uh went in to do like a routine amend to some T's and C's or something something very minor and got an AI prompt which said you know you can

um do some automated testing uh on display times for this the optimized display times it wasn't something that we went looking for it was something which the platform completely organically suggested to us and we had

we had it testing in the background and it runs three or four stages of of testing different um different elements to it and was live for something like seven or eight weeks. We didn't lay a

finger on it. We didn't do anything, but it gave us um a 14% uplift in uh signups, which for something which we didn't go looking for in the slightest,

Claio just suggested it. That's a that's a cool feature. There's no way of arguing that. That's cool.

arguing that. That's cool.

>> Nice.

>> Love it.

>> All right. Yeah, I've been playing around with that as well. But you need for those that are listening in, if you don't have that in your account, basically because you don't have enough traffic on your site, so don't worry about it. You can still do AB testing if

about it. You can still do AB testing if you have enough traffic. You are able to use these AI automated feature which is going to basically test out different variations to make sure that you have

the right timing when a pop-up needs to go live that you're optimizing for yeah your visitors basically. Anyway, we're

rounding up. Maybe book you can do the wrap-up.

>> Yeah. No, honestly, this was uh this was great. Thanks uh thanks for joining Max.

great. Thanks uh thanks for joining Max.

Um I it it was a pleasure chatting with you and having an elite in retention working for so many years, managing so many brands as well. Honestly, like it was some some true golden nuggets in

there. Um I feel like I was a listener

there. Um I feel like I was a listener during this session. So thanks for that.

If you want to follow Max, make sure you um check out the links in the description. We we're going to put his

description. We we're going to put his LinkedIn uh on there. Make sure you go to castor.com, check out what they have uh you know, in store it if if you're in the UK. You guys sell internationally,

the UK. You guys sell internationally, right? So, shouldn't be a

right? So, shouldn't be a >> We do. Yeah, you can you can find us pretty much anywhere.

>> Fantastic. There you go.

>> Yeah. US, Australia, Europe, all over.

>> Cool. Go to castro.com, check them out.

I'm actually having them open right now and I was checking out some of the some of the stuff that they're selling. Um I

was actually trying to check out the pop-up that you were just saying um that you had. But uh this was episode 7 of

you had. But uh this was episode 7 of Clavio Geeks with Max Holland as a special guest. Huge huge thanks for him

special guest. Huge huge thanks for him uh for for joining. If you like this episode, don't make sure to drop a fivestar on Spotify. Go to the top, click on five star, and click submit.

It's going to help us a lot. And if you have any feedback, make sure you go to claviogeeks.com and send us a message topics that you want us to cover, questions that you have. Omar and I are

going to check that quite often because we're always super excited to talk with our listeners. We will see you on the

our listeners. We will see you on the next episode. Omar, some final words.

next episode. Omar, some final words.

And uh for me it's all uh really looking forward to the to the next episodes as well. I think we also have Val coming on

well. I think we also have Val coming on uh in one of the upcoming episodes all about data and uh how to make better decisions on things. If you know somebody that needs to be on this

podcast as well, don't forget like drop us a name, send us a message. We'll be

uh open to to listening in why they should be here. Max, thank you so much.

if there's anything like is there anything specific you would still want to say for the awesome audience here?

>> Um well firstly thank you for having me on guys. Genuinely I know I mentioned

on guys. Genuinely I know I mentioned this to you Omar last night. Um this

podcast is I've been listening to it for the the last couple of weeks. Um and I think it's such a cool idea that we've got you know something here that that caters for for people potentially all

all levels of Clavio user. Uh I know as you say I've been in the industry a while. I've listened to a few episodes

while. I've listened to a few episodes and and genuinely learned things and and sort of implemented a few things off the back of it. Um, so

>> genuinely thank you for having me on guys and it's it's an absolute pleasure.

Awesome.

>> Great chatting with you.

>> Cool. All right. Well, thanks so much.

>> All right. So, that's a wrap.

>> We'll see you on the next one.

>> Thank you for those kind words.

Thanks guys.

>> All right. Bye-bye.

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