Unlocking Private Investment through Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) (29 May, 2025)

Hi everyone. I think we can um go ahead and get started because we have as you can see a very full and exciting agenda.

Um welcome to unlocking private investment through extended producer responsibility EPR. My name is Charlotte

responsibility EPR. My name is Charlotte Doyle and I'm part of the circular economy team at IFC, the private sector arm of the World Bank Group. And we're

delighted to welcome you to this event which is the second in our learning series hosted by the World Bank Group and the United Nations Institute for Training and Research Unitar.

We know that many of you joined us for the first session last month which introduced the concept of extended producer responsibility and looked at the key considerations from a country

level perspective.

This event today builds on that strong foundation and will specifically focus on the private sector role in extended producer responsibility.

Our focus today is on not just what makes EPR effective but investable.

We're joined by a fantastic group of speakers from four continents representing the wide spectrum of EPR stakeholders.

We'll first hear from Dr. Junu Shesta from the World Bank or turning to Dr. Pratt Schroeder from Chadam House for the global perspective.

Our panel discussion will be led by IFC's Lisa Dilva, global circularity lead. And we have panelists who span

lead. And we have panelists who span everything from creation of policy to implementation of policy to compliance with policy. Anusuiago from IFC is

with policy. Anusuiago from IFC is working with public and private partners in Kotavvoir to help shape policy. Ani

Boyin joins us from Pepsico and will speak from the perspective of a global producer working across different regulatory markets. and Marcela Lopez is

regulatory markets. and Marcela Lopez is putting EPR into action in Brazil.

Each of these speakers brings a different perspective on what's working and where the challenges lie from Brazil to Kotvoir and beyond.

Our goal for today is to unpack the key features of EPR systems that successfully draw in private sector investment.

And by the end of the session, we hope you'll come away and new insight.

that you can apply to your own context.

I'm just going to put um reminder for everyone to please uh be on mute. Um

yeah, so that's our call to action.

Think about what the speakers are saying and how it applies to your work and your local market. Whether you're in a role

local market. Whether you're in a role where you are designing policies or finding an existing one or looking for opportunities to build stronger

partnerships with the private sector.

And just to take a step back, as many of you know, EPR can take many different forms and means different things to different stakeholders.

And our speaker, Dr. Patrick Schroer will go further to this in his presentation, but extended producer responsibility is essentially a policy approach that requires the producer of a

product or package to take responsibility for that product or package at the end of its life. That

responsibility can be financial, operational, some combination of those two. It can be voluntary, mandatory. And

two. It can be voluntary, mandatory. And

so how it plays out looks very different from place to place.

That's why the local context is so important. Regulations, infrastructure,

important. Regulations, infrastructure, and consumer habits all shape how EPR work. As we'll hear from our speakers,

work. As we'll hear from our speakers, today's speakers will explore examples from around the world and look at the different enabling conditions and features for success and the potential pitfalls.

One theme that I expect that we'll hear from our speakers is that there's no onesizefitsall solution for EPR. So again, we encourage you to listen with your own market in

mind. What lessons or ideas could apply

mind. What lessons or ideas could apply in your own context?

Please take full advantage of our wonderful experts today. We have the chat function which we'll be monitoring.

Please add your questions, your comments. As you'll see, we have time

comments. As you'll see, we have time reserved for questions and answers and we'll aim to do our best to bring your insights and questions into the conversation.

Finally, I'd like to thank our partners including the World Bank's ProBlue program, Unitar, and IFC for hosting this event. And it's my pleasure to

this event. And it's my pleasure to introduce Dr. Junu Shesta, senior environmental specialist from the global environment department at the World Bank, who leads the marine pollution

pillar of Proloo. Junu, over to you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Charlotte. Um uh thanks for this great introduction and uh prelude to the conversation today. Uh it is very positive encouraging to see the interest

in the topic and the participants. Um we

know that countries are facing the challenge to tackle plastic pollution and it's not just um you know a debris issue. We know that at this point it

issue. We know that at this point it impacts the community's economy.

uh health and also biodiversity of the ecosystems that they rely on. Um we as you um as you just mentioned the World

Bank Group uh are supporting the countries to build the technical as well as financial capacity to respond to this

extremely complex challenge. Um

we know it requires policies, investments, technologies to address plastic pollution. And if I may say most

plastic pollution. And if I may say most of all uh the key is really policy triggers. The right policies can direct

triggers. The right policies can direct investments and technologies in the right context and make them impactful

for that country and client. Um in this regard um as we know and uh our audience uh also are aware of uh EPR has been

highlighted as one of the key policy instruments and that has also been um a major part of INC 5 uh.2 uh dialogues

coming into uh coming into shape in August. Um it has been highlighted as

August. Um it has been highlighted as one of the uh policy instruments that can support plastic management. uh as

you mentioned Charlotte shifting burden of waste management responsibilities from government to producers and it has been seen as extremely attractive

instrument because of this key thing it's shifts the burden from public to private sector right but this is not an

easy task uh to build and design EPR it requires learning from other cases listening from experts who know this uh about this topic in depth and bu and

really building the country and private sector uh technical knowhow and it is a long process and warbank group has

designed this knowledge series to support capacity building on this topic.

Uh in in the EPR design both public and private sector uh have important roles.

It is not to negate you know like we I said initially there's a notion that the responsibility shifts from public to private. It is not fully true there is

private. It is not fully true there is responsibility for both public and private sector. They both have key roles

private sector. They both have key roles to play. In the first session of the

to play. In the first session of the series um uh of this EPR knowledge series, we focused on introduction to

EPR, key factors that define success of EPR and evolution based on country context. um in very preliminary cases

context. um in very preliminary cases just focusing on waste management. How

can EPR really facilitate this as we grow into more sophisticated um uh well-built um infrastructure and policies in that country context more

upstream circularity how can we really evolve EPR based on what country context we are in it is a process where both

public and private sector has to evolve together and work together public sector is needed for regular regulatory framework incentive

um incentive design, monitoring and enforcement and all along private sector participation is needed to actually implement EPR and today's focus like you

said is going to be private sector and their role in EPR. How do we pull them in more? how to engage them and how to

in more? how to engage them and how to get their good practices um reflect in EPR process and incent and

know what what will incentivize them um our colleagues in IFC will lead this discussion um and that as they are the private sector arm of the World Bank

group and thank you very much for your interest in this very important topic uh and it's very good to see the wide range of speakers we have and uh the audience.

So on to you uh Charlotte again. Thank

you so much Juno for providing that uh context and additional um depth on role of public and private sector and also this EPR series. So we're now going to

turn to Dr. Patrick Schroeder who is a senior research fellow on the environment and society center at Chattam House. He specializes in

Chattam House. He specializes in circular economy policy and investment strategies and will provide us with the global perspective. Thank you, Patrick.

global perspective. Thank you, Patrick.

Yes, thank you for the introduction, Charlotte, and um thanks to IFC for inviting me uh to join today's meeting.

It's great to be part of the discussion.

Um I'll just share my screen. Um I've

prepared a few slides. Um

this is working.

Yes, we can see your screen.

Okay, that's great. Um, just need to navigate.

Um, okay, now it's working. Sorry. Um, yes.

So uh um at Chattton House uh we follow and track and analyze the international um development of circular economy

policies and this is work I'm doing with my colleague Jack Barry and um I've put a chat in the link to this site. So this

is our um tracker policy tracker and uh we've looked at um the national road maps or national strategies that country are implementing and this was the

situation in 2016. So uh you see uh four countries with national strategies for a circular economy and uh Japan being the

first country um to have done this. Um

and uh actually Japan also has relates to EPR very um welldeveloped EPR systems for various sectors. Um and

then this is the uh picture now in 2024.

So we see there's a rapid uptake of these national strategies. They're in

different stages of development, but we see a lot of activity in South America, Africa, also ASEAN. And uh since we did this stock take last year, there's

actually new strategies that have been launched. Actually, Brazil during the

launched. Actually, Brazil during the World Circular Economy Forum a couple of weeks ago launched their action plan. Um

so this is very much um a proliferation that we see. Um and we've captured this in a report that we published with Unido

last year uh in 2024. Um so although there's a rapid uptake, we still have limited understanding of actually the um

overall content of these uh road maps.

Um that was uh 75 road maps and within these there are various policy

commitments close to uh 3,000 last year um covering 17 sectors and as part of these uh policies and I'll come to that uh a little bit later. EPR stands out as

as the most important um policy for national circular economy strategies. So

if countries, it's fair to say if countries have a national strategy, they will also have uh an EPR policy. And um just to

emphasize also what was uh um just said earlier really these um national strategies and policy frameworks are

needed to um uh for the private sector uh and the um the needed investments um

into circular uh models also around packaging and plastics. Um uh so it's uh this uh enabling policy environment is

really needed to provide certainty to investors. Many of these models are

investors. Many of these models are still considered to be um uh let's say high higher risk. Um and

this is like an overview of the different public policy categories that are contained in in these road maps. I

won't go into these details but um many of these are also related uh to EPR. So

they're these are not standalone policies but they they you could see um they're considered their packages that um work together to

achieve the effect. Um there are also various targets um countries setting quantitative targets um on resource productivity for example material

productivity or or waste reduction um and uh EPR also uh is an important aspect in enabling the achievement of

these national uh targets uh that have been set. Uh these are the main sectors.

been set. Uh these are the main sectors.

So construction built environment you see plastics is very prominent um also food energy uh electronics ICT

um uh textiles is coming up uh as well um and uh which again demonstrates uh that the circular economy is very

crosscutting uh it's relevant for I would say all sectors of the economy and again EPR uh systems are also relevant for for these different sectors

Um so we we have this uh wave let's say of

of um new policies uh coming in. Um

the one of the issues that we've identified that many most of these road maps are developed unilaterally. So uh

there's a lack of um let's say coordination between countries um on on these um and so that's also great to see

this webinar u uh taking place uh world bank unitar uh IFC coming together um to provide some exchanges and maybe also enable some coordination between

countries and private sector and the finance industry on on this topic.

Um now this is uh some more detailed information about uh about the EPR. Um

as I mentioned um so the extended producer responsibility is the most prominent single policy measure that we identified. Um

identified. Um um followed by reporting disclosure cleaner production policies etc. Um so

close to uh like over 80 um EPR schemes uh in um have been mentioned in in

various circular economy strategies. Um

and that we also looked at um the types of EPR actions um and most countries are still actually as you see in the process

of establishing these. Uh so

that means this is very much a policy process or or uh in in progress. Uh

other countries uh might have already an EPR but look at strengthening it. Um

then other countries engaging in EPR design research. So looking at the role

design research. So looking at the role EPR plays in stimulating circular product design. there's uh some activity

product design. there's uh some activity on echcom modulation which is also very important in terms of the fee structures that are being set by um EPR systems um

and then other other aspects around what are the priority products how to raise awareness about the the mechanism um very few looking at international harmonization

um I think this will be probably an area that deserves more attention going forward to see how um how these uh different schemes developing in

countries might relate to each other. Um

then sorry the next slide.

Um then uh we also looked at what are the main product categories that are targeted. Uh so we see plastic packaging

targeted. Uh so we see plastic packaging plastics and and packaging is is the most important one. Um and I guess it links also to the the need to address

plastics. Um also as we heard uh within

plastics. Um also as we heard uh within the plastics treaty negotiations EPR has a prominent role. Um there's also textiles and the uh construction and

built environment. Um so textiles EPR

built environment. Um so textiles EPR some of some of the EPRs um that are I think in in development. uh European

countries, some European countries have those already. Um more are planning them

those already. Um more are planning them also related to new uh European policies around waste shipment of of textiles and

um collection. Um so we can see more

um collection. Um so we can see more activity in in in this and as you see other sectors are also uh important here. Um

here. Um now going into a little bit more detail on on the EPR.

Why why is it important? Um this is a a figure from zero west Scotland and there's probably similar uh diagrams

available elsewhere but it very much shows that EPR is very is is is an important uh policy approach that

touches upon the different stages of the life cycle and also is relevant not only for the producers but it's also um

relates to the consumer um then the end of life uh in terms of the material collection um exempt producer responsibility often linked also to take

back schemes or deposit refund systems. Um so it's it's very much an approach that is needed to address the um the full

life cycle and as I mentioned uh the importance of EPR to stimulate circular product design uh also related to

recycle content um plays a key role um in this context.

So now this is my last slide um I'm showing now. Oops. No, I'm sorry. So,

showing now. Oops. No, I'm sorry. So,

this is a a bit of a complicated diagram, but it's uh really interesting study that was done, not by us, um but um you can see the link here, and it's

open access. Um it's it's a very

open access. Um it's it's a very interesting study that looked at 24 European countries plus the UK uh on their packaging, EPRS, and it's uh

really looking at the structure. Um, so

what's the systems go? What's the

responsibility allocation and the instrument type the the policy instrument type that's linked to the EPR system. And I just go down from the top

system. And I just go down from the top and it it shows also um the various

uh countries um that have chosen the different options. So you see within the

different options. So you see within the packaging EPR in Europe they're all mandatory. Um another option are

mandatory. Um another option are voluntary but in uh for these 25 countries uh they're all

mandatory and the majority uh don't have a compliance threshold. Um so other options is to have quality threshold or turnover threshold of the of the

business or the combination of quantity and and and threshold. Uh it also shows which types of plastics are covered. So

most cover all fractions. Um and then other option would be just to focus on

bottles or vials looking at PET um PT.

Um so then other structures relate to the responsibility. Um and you see it's

the responsibility. Um and you see it's a mixed responsibility uh for most countries. So um a

coexistence of collective and individual systems is possible. Um then it goes into actually the PO structure and we'll

uh hear more about this uh later. Um so

most have a single centralized pro um but there's also what's called uh an

oligopy um where you have several um or let's say few PRs um uh that's then related to whether it's a

non-competitive or competitive uh type of approach. So you can see also there's

of approach. So you can see also there's uh there's a mix of different options that is being used and uh then the other the other question

for uh for the EPR that's important is whether uh it's it's the full financial and operational responsibility uh in terms of cost. So whether it's

partial cost coverage or full and here again most um EPRS cover the the full cost of

collection and sorting. Um and then the question how responsibility is assigned.

Um so there's these different options here. uh simple financial mainly

here. uh simple financial mainly financial um but actually most have a financial and a partial operational

responsibility um and then finally the study also looks at the different instruments policy instruments um that are that are

associated with the with the EPRS looking at different um taxes or subsidies then the echcom modulation part that was also mentioned earlier

um whether it includes um a trading scheme and various then education on consumers which also links to the

labeling and in European countries this is often uh with the green dot um etc etc um reporting requirements. So

all of all of these are linked into into an EPR and actually are quite important to also uh make it um effective and and and practical in the implementation

part.

Um so that that's all from me. I hope I didn't go too much over time. Um happy

to also answer question and uh uh engage also later in the panel. Um great. So

thanks very much.

Thank you so much Patrick for that comprehensive overview and I feel like that chart in itself really explains the complexity of this space um and why

again local context is so important. Um

so as Patrick said um please do put your questions for him as well as our panelists in the chat. Um and we are now going to turn to our panel discussion

which is being led by Lisa Dilva who is the global circularity lead in IFC's climate business department where she leads strategy partnerships and innovation to scale circular economy

investments across markets. Lisa over to you.

Thank you Charlotte and thank you Patrick for the overview. Um I wanted to start by just saying IFC has been investing in the circular economy space

for for quite a few years and from where we sit the challenge some of the big challenges are that the bankability of these projects are are often tricky

because virgin materials are still the price of virgin materials are still cheaper often than recycled content and that is going to require

policy changes to impact the economics of those projects as well. We also have the challenge um and considerations for informal workers and a lot of times we

see these projects as relatively small sizes can be addressed through aggregation models and financial institutions but the policy piece is

going to be really important and I want to step back because it's been mentioned EPR we all use this word EPR and as

Patrick uh rightly noted the structure of EPR are can change and be very different for different people and in different countries. And what we wanted

different countries. And what we wanted to do is take a look at the really important considerations when you are designing an EPR program in a given country if you're if you're really

trying to unlock private sector investment. And we know that any

investment. And we know that any transition is going to require private sector investment at scale because public budgets are not going to

be able to cover this. So today we have a great panel. We've got uh Anke Boy Ben Boyen from PepsiCo um representing

a com a company that has to comply with EPR. We have Marcela Lopes from Brazil

EPR. We have Marcela Lopes from Brazil who is who manages a pro in Brazil but also waste infrastructure. So they're

implementing the EPR systems in many way. And then we've got Inoso uh Orago

way. And then we've got Inoso uh Orago from um IFC who's working with governments on helping to design policy.

So I'm going to start uh by asking each of our panelists. I'm going to start with An Marcelo and then Enosa. Please

introduce yourself and in one minute what do you think is the biggest consideration for driving invest private sector investment from where you sit? An

over to you.

Thank you, Lisa, and thank you for for having me today. Um, my name is Ana Boyin. I lead the global environmental

Boyin. I lead the global environmental policy team at PepsiCo. PepsiCo is a global food and beverage company. We

sell packaged um, food and beverage products to consumers around the world and have been interacting with EPR um, schemes and programs in a number of countries. And I think from from our

countries. And I think from from our perspective, one of the the critical features of EPR that differentiates it from other collection and recycling

programs are the producer responsibility organizations.

um effective producer responsibility organizations, you know, work with the companies that are obligated under the EPR law on the implementation of the

program and making sure that these are um you know implemented in an effective and efficient way. Um they also sit as you know almost like at at the center

and you know sort of create a hub between all of the stakeholders that have a role to play in um shaping this transition towards circular economies

and they really help the companies to then deliver on the financial and operational um responsibilities that you know may be set out in the law. And so

thereby they really you know so are at the core of enabling that longer you know transformation of of circular economy systems.

Thanks. An um Marcelo from your

Thanks. An um Marcelo from your perspective as a pro what's please introduce yourself and uh what what was what's one of the most critical factors

from where you sit in terms of helping to drive private sector investment.

Thank you. Thank you Lisa. Thank you for for the invitation participating in the panel. Um I'm Marcelo Lopez. Um I work

panel. Um I'm Marcelo Lopez. Um I work at EQLO. Esslo is a Brazilian packaging

at EQLO. Esslo is a Brazilian packaging recovery organization focused on consumer packaged goods and um right now I lead the efforts regarding our what we

call infrastructure business which hopefully I'm going to have opportunity to talk a little bit on why we're we're vering that direction. Um in the last 18

months I probably have personally spoken to over 100 investors either banks, multilaterals and private sector and one of the common

most common feedback that we have we've received uh goes a little bit to what you mentioned in terms of bankability and most of the investors mentioned we

received a lot of ideas. We received a lot of intentions. We received a lot of lots of people trying to do great

things, but most of them are still not projects. They are not something that we

projects. They are not something that we can actually put money behind this and actually implement and finance this either by equity or by debt. So I think

one of the main challenges that we are seeing and we're trying to overcome is um how do we turn all this good intention because agenda of recycling is

extremely noble. It's well received with

extremely noble. It's well received with any investor you talk to. Uh but you really need to have bankable projects sizable hopefully projects to drive

investment.

Thanks Marcelo. I'm going to come back.

I'm going to push you a little bit in terms of within an EPR structure um what elements of that can help impact the bankability

but first let's hear from Enosa uh you're working with governments uh in Kivvoir can you tell please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you think is one of the big

critical factors for driving um a successful EPR system.

Thank you very much Lisa particularly in environment like the bank.

Okay someone needs okay please mute yourself. Um doc so um my name is

yourself. Um doc so um my name is senior operation officer the

uh country advisory and economics team based in nijair um but I'm also involved in the

body circular economy initiative which is at the very early stage but I'm very delighted to share this experience and

also to learn from this expert around this panel and participants.

So for me the most critical features were first of all EPR as uh Patrick said

it's u a policy that um transfer the responsibility of um end of life management of the product to the

producer including packaging. So uh for me the most important thing is first of all regul regulatory framework. We need

to have a robust uh solid regulatory and legal and regulatory framework which is the EPR

um that clarifies rules and coordination and um mechanism that needs to be need

to be in place. Um second is uh putting together a producer responsibility organization for countries like Kodiva

uh where um the initiative is now starting it's too uh new to everyone I think having a well up and running uh

peer group can make a difference. Um

another thing important for and and Lisa you said that um incentives to really um encourage private attract private

investment and the risk it um is very important to be put in place by the government. Um another element is

government. Um another element is collaboration. We need there are a lot

collaboration. We need there are a lot of players in the circular in the EPR implementation the recycling etc. So we

need a very collaborative framework um to make sure that um um the the the EPR

will be enforced uh successfully and uh lastly access to finance mechanism to really uh finance

collectors hand sorting centers segregators and recyclers is also equally important. Thank you.

equally important. Thank you.

Thanks, Senosa. Um, lots there that I'm going to definitely come back to. First,

I want to talk uh turn back to An uh PepsiCo is investing in multiple countries.

Can you give us a little bit more flavor about what you're considering when you're making your investment decisions in in in various countries visav the EPR

system, what you're looking for and how it impacts your decisions to invest.

Yeah. So, I mean for us as a company, right, we have different opportunities to invest in um solutions to help address plastic pollutions. It starts

with you know our own um R&D programs where we you know try to innovate um or develop innovations around you know um material solutions that can you know

better protect our products or business models um that help bring products to the consumer in different ways that could be reuse for example. We can also invest you know in voluntary collection

and recycling programs often you know at the scale of a pilot or a you know smaller sky smaller sized um initiative or we can sort of signal demand you know

for recycled content through you know different commercial agreements. What we

have found though however is that um the like EPR as a mechanism for us is a really sort of the the most important um

instrument to drive long-term and sort of dedicated funding into the collection and recycling systems and also the sufficient funding you know for for that

market because what you know sort of the the policies allow is you know as you know what was said by by the other panelists is get give that sort long-term direction. It gives a certain

long-term direction. It gives a certain degree of um you know certainty um to to us as consumers that you know we pay a

fee for the packaging material that we put into um that country or that market.

that fee is then collected by the producer responsibility organization um and getting reinvested into the you

know sort of um programs that are needed in that jurisdiction. That could be you know sort of in specific like collection programs that could help be um around

consumer education on what to recycle and how to recycle. Um that could be in terms of capacity building. And you know by you know having that policy in place

it also sends a really strong signal um to other stakeholders um in that um jurisdiction that you know materials will be collected that you know sort of

recycling has an opportunity to scale and it unlocks um additional investments beyond you know the fees from EPR programs. And so you drive scale and you

drive greater efficiencies by having that regulation in place and by bringing in you know that additional private sector investment. Um it does help you

sector investment. Um it does help you know lessen the burden on the local governments because you now can sort of share that responsibility among different type of actors. And I think

for us it is that sort of clear regulatory you know sort of framework that you know we like to see that gives us sort of the the certainty that you

know the the funding is is well invested. Um and it is also you know

invested. Um and it is also you know sort of um that collective effort um that can really help drive the the change and um we have been advocating

for you know EPR programs through you know the consumer goods forum through the business coalition for a global plastics treaty at both the global level but also um at you know sort of national

or subnational levels and I think um when we look at you know sort of what makes EPR systems effective there is a set of principles that underpins them

all and that we keep coming back to and that we want to see in the legislation and um sort of the first one is you sort of around you know strong environmental

outcomes. Is the legislation designed in

outcomes. Is the legislation designed in a way to where it can really deliver on the promise of EPR and you sort of one characteristic is by including a broad

range of materials because that is how you can create economies of scale and how you can sort of further drive that efficiency. The other principle would be

efficiency. The other principle would be around um being efficient and being cost-effective and it starts with you know sort of clear measurable but also

achievable targets that can be you know sort of scaled up over time. Um so I think you know it speaks to the need to evolve and consistently like adapt you

know EPR programs over time to optimize their their impact. um EPR programs, you know, the wellperforming ones also make it convenient for consumers to recycle

by improving the access to recycling.

And I think that is one of the big sort of benefits um and sort of, you know, positive outcomes of well-designed EPR is the, you know, sort of the consumer convenience and improved access to

recycling.

Um you know I spoke a bit to um the long-term financial sustainability of the programs you know different from maybe voluntary you know pilots or

initiatives because of having the law in place EPR programs guarantee the long-term you know financial um input

into the programs um and you know sort of um there is a guarantee that you know sort of these these funds are incoming um the fees should reflect the net cost

of recycling. That is a principle that

of recycling. That is a principle that we have found, you know, to be very effective to where you look at what does it cost to collect and recycle a specific material type. You know, what

is sort of the revenue that can be um you know, sort of obtain from the collection of those materials and reinvest um those you know, sort of

scrap revenues back into the system to continuously drive towards improvements.

And I think for us as producers um we would also like to see an option to have access to the collected materials, right? I think one of the um ambitions

right? I think one of the um ambitions that we have is to reinccorporate more of the recycled content back into our you know packaging materials. sort of

the EPR programs help us, you know, sort of, you know, sort of get those materials back into our own packaging.

Um, that makes them particularly compelling for us and as sort of a good sort of source of investment. And then

you know sort of to to other ones that I just mentioned quickly I think you know you've spoken to the informal waist sector and I think there is an opportunity there for you know um EPR

programs to promote um the social inclusiveness and fairness and sort of also ensure that you know sort of um workers in the informal sector are being incorporated into these programs and I

think for us again EPR being a good mechanism to you know strengthen our collaboration and partners partnership with informal workers and then you know um as you may hear

from from my comments I think there is a strong role for the companies that are obligated under the EPR law to really you know sort of drive the implementation of these programs and I

think that is another reason the sort of more sort of um reassurance for us of why we would want to invest in EPR is that ability to help shape and influence um not the least through through the PO

which you know in most cases is the successful ones tend to be nonprofits that bring many of us together. Um so in short I think you know the points that have been made government driven or

government like regulated industry driven with a strong lens towards the inclusiveness as well. Okay. Thank you.

Uh and I know that PepsiCo is a member of the global um business coalition which is calling for mandatory EPR programs which level the playing field.

Uh I also wanted to I noted I noted your comment on access to the recycled content which I think is an interesting point because one of the bankability

challenges or the challenges in the economics and I'm going to turn now to Marcelo um is a lot of times the brands are not

uh committing to long-term purchase agreements of the recycled content at a given price that makes some of the waste infrastructure

uh feasible. But I so I Marcelo, let's

uh feasible. But I so I Marcelo, let's hear from your perspective now as a pro in Brazil and as a waste infrastructure um company.

Yeah. Um I think I think I think it's important to share why we reach where we are right now and talk a little bit because we started as

a company before there was any APR for consumer package goods in Brazil. So I

think some of the experiences that that we've had maybe are relevant to other countries. Um there are three things

countries. Um there are three things that I wanted to just before talk about experiences. Um, first you always need

experiences. Um, first you always need to keep in mind what your mission and your long-term goals are. In our case is to increase recycling rates in Brazil.

And um, so every decision that we take, we we we keep that in mind. The second,

I think Charlotte mentioned this, there's no oneizefits-all. I'm going to share you a bit about Brazilian experience. Brazilian is peculiar

experience. Brazilian is peculiar country as every country is peculiar in its own way. Uh but hopefully um our journey um has some elements that at

least will get people thinking of well if I wanted to implement pro and EPR in Brazil or in my country what would I have to do? Um I have to say it's a

journey of overcoming bottlenecks a succession of bottlenecks. That's how I feel it's a long-term journey that you start overcoming bottlenecks

every every time every step of the way.

So the first bottleneck that we when started was the perception of lack of demand. We didn't have any EPR. We said

demand. We didn't have any EPR. We said

well if you don't have EPR there there's no demand for a PRO. Why why would people want your services? Um

but what we thought but what what we found out was that there were few hundred clients consumer package good companies that we can call them they're

sort of like early adopters and they were listen we are we we would like to have EPR type of solutions even without

EPR regulations. So that was an

EPR regulations. So that was an incredible finding for for the company and that's how it actually started.

We're providing we started providing solutions and we started to develop the product the technology the traceability the initial infrastructure footprint all the critical elements for pro in this

very niche market of learn adoptions that wanted the solution without so that was first experiences that's how we've over we we started to overcome the demand bottleneck so to

speak. So

speak. So the next bono we find out was size because those um early adopters were the few hundred and this wouldn't really

change recycling rates in Brazil in scale with only these early adopters and we needed to look for other catalysts to drive demand and drive scale and

particular in our case regulation was the one that was critical to to do this.

It's a very powerful catalyst the PR and um and it also evolves along the way. So

Brazil started with PR that wasn't for example um you didn't have to do anything by fraction it was only by weight but it has since evolved in many parts of the country that you need to do

it by fraction as well. So we overcame the first there's no demand now we have demand and we have EPR and demand is coming along. Um then we reached the

coming along. Um then we reached the third one which is probably the one we actually wanted to the point the bottleneck that we wanted to reach from the beginning and why we started all

this which is supply.

Um this is the bottleneck you eventually reach because if if there is not a bottleneck of supply to recyclables there's no need for EPRs in the first place. If if your recycling rates are so

place. If if your recycling rates are so high there is actually no need for EPR.

So you actually want to reach the point of understanding these are the bottlenecks and these are the value chains that have um low recycling rates

and trying to understand why. So the

Brazil's example is aluminium has huge recycling rates because it from economic perspective it it just works plastic has very low. So we this is where we are

very low. So we this is where we are right now in the point of we found the bottlenecks that we need to take the next step and they are the most challenging. It's I believe it's the

challenging. It's I believe it's the most challenging one to overcome. It's

the infrastructure and and the supply but also I think it's the one that presents um multi-billion uh opportunity to

build infrastructure and other dimensions. education, increase upstream

dimensions. education, increase upstream uh sorting so that you can go back to our mission in the first place, which is how do we get Brazil to have relevant

recycling and increasing and increasing rates. And the last thing that I'm I'm

rates. And the last thing that I'm I'm going to mention is also perhaps a little bit of further evolution on on regulation is the importance of enforcement at some

point. um regulation is is critical for

point. um regulation is is critical for sure that will drive demand but in the coupled with enforcement is what really drives EPR to be extremely successful

and extremely efficient. So that's a little bit of the um of um our our journey and um I'm focusing now on the infrastructure and um we could talk a

little bit later leis on the challenges to get this infrastructure going because like you said there are no long-term contracts. It's very hard to make

contracts. It's very hard to make guarantees to make these these projects bankable. There are sorts of thing there

bankable. There are sorts of thing there are no markets there are full future markets for uh recycle. Um we've been in this journey for the last three years

and um we've made important progress and I I honestly feel it's possible. You can

it can be done.

Marcelo, thank you. And I heard both you and An mentioned the act you know the need for proper infrastructure. So there

is access to recycling from the community. Right? If we want to change

community. Right? If we want to change behaviors we have to make recycling easy. We have to make sorting easier so

easy. We have to make sorting easier so that that'll help the economics as well because if you can collect at source uh

versus pulling out of landfills that changes the cost structure of recycling.

Um, I want to turn to Inosa now. You are

working with governments and it'd be really great to hear from you what what are some of the key important considerations when engaging with

governments? there's probably multiple

governments? there's probably multiple agencies that have to be involved and I think one of the important factors is

that you are managing a a local private sector working group that is engaging with government with the governments and helping in the design and the thinking

through can you talk us through um some of that approach the challenges the benefits thanks

thank you very much. Um so Kodiva is piloting this EPR program in Aban.

Um it as you said it's uh an early stage we still have a long journey but uh um what we are hearing from other panelists

uh is really comforting our position that uh we are uh putting um the right elements in place to make it happen. So

for started doing you know sir I I'm hearing you cut in and out or Charlotte are you hearing him fine?

Yes cutting in and out a little. Anusa

maybe if you try speaking a little bit closer to the microphone we'll see if that helps. Okay. Okay. Sorry. So yes, I

that helps. Okay. Okay. Sorry. So yes, I was saying that uh in the case of Kodiva, we started when IFC has been approached by the

private sector, the first thing we did is to start organizing the private sector itself. So we we brought all the

sector itself. So we we brought all the private sector players, food, plastic producers recyclers

uh collections companies, we put them together in one association and we started discussing this possibility of

uh really make exploiting this huge potential that plastic represent in the

country. So we uh discussed the EPR

country. So we uh discussed the EPR principles, the circularity approaches and we agree within the private sector,

private sector should be leading the solution um to really face this pollution uh um issue. So um we from

there we go to the went to the government and present solution and concrete proposal from private sector.

Private sector told the government we are ready to pay and to contribute financially to resolve this pollution uh

problem. Um because we're also seeing

problem. Um because we're also seeing not only problems but also opportunities behind this pollution plastic pollution.

Um the key challenges that government face faces if it's facing right because we still in the process uh first of all

is really ownership in the government several agencies minister of environment said oh this is environment issue I want to lead that minister of industry say oh

private sector wants to recycle this industry I want to uh own the the the process and minister of sanitation uh

said is saying I'm the waste owner in this camp should be in my ministry. So

at the beginning this great confusion and delayed uh the process. So EPR the the EPR act should

process. So EPR the the EPR act should really clearly identify between the government agencies. Um um

other thing is really to avoid working in silos.

Um EPR is not really uh for one sector.

Um and Patrick and Marcelo rightly said um we have more than 17 sectors that

could be highly impacted by a successful implementation of EPR and Kodiva

uh started thinking uh one EPR per sector. Um and uh IFC came really with a

sector. Um and uh IFC came really with a concrete proposal of an EPR act that

will really uh address um the problem for all the sectors not only um for the per sector. So that's that's very

per sector. So that's that's very important. enforcement is important and

important. enforcement is important and u um you you said that Miro. Uh another

thing is having an an inclusive approach.

Mar uh you know I think we just lost you. Oh

you. Oh um are you hearing him?

No. So we can't hear you, you know. So maybe if you turn your

you know. So maybe if you turn your camera off, we'll be able to hear.

Unfortunately, we're not, you know, so I'm going to give you a chance to come back in later, but what I I just wanted to um say I heard some

important things. One is the importance

important things. One is the importance of including private sector. I think it helps to ensure that when we're

designing EPR systems that there aren't unintended consequences that we're not thinking about from the policies because the private sector would very quickly

say you implement it this way we will react that way and so there's a chance to think through the design of the program. The other the other reason for

program. The other the other reason for um including local private sector working groups and and advisory boards is that it helps prepare the private

sector. So if they know what's coming,

sector. So if they know what's coming, they're preparing for investment.

They're preparing to to adopt. And I did want to acknowledge there is there's that difference between the different agencies. So you've got national

agencies. So you've got national governments that are implementing certain policies, but waste infrastructure is managed at the local level, at the municipal level, the

district level, and those are different those are different um stakeholders. And

so there is a need for uh engaging multiple stakeholders when designing uh projects. There's a need for really

projects. There's a need for really being clear with governments on the benefits that they will get. What kind

of investment can be unlocked for a for a given policy. I want to turn I want to turn back and just an open question for

for the various panels panelists. Sorry.

We know that the informal sector is a critical act you know actor in the collection in most of the countries that

we are engaging in. from where you sit uh you know An Marcelo Enosa I welcome your thoughts in terms of how

they are playing a role in your decisions and how we can engage them more sorry okay let me put okay over to you I'm going to start let's start with you

and then Marcelo yeah thank you and as I mentioned earlier right the the inclusion of The informal waste sector is one of our overarching principles that we would

like to see addressed. Um PepsiCo

together with um some of our peer companies Nestle, Uni Lever um Coca-Cola and Tier Fund as an NGO um founded um

the fair circularity initiative a few years back which is an initiative that really tries to promote um the like human rights in um circular economy

systems um and the recognition of the informal waste sector in these systems. Um and we have sort of um initially set out a uh a set of guiding principles

that can really sort of um illustrate what that may mean and are now working on sort of thinking through how to implement the these principles. Um you

know fundamentally we believe that the informal waste sector should have a seat at the table when you know these policies are being designed and when they are being implemented there's a lot

of knowhow and expertise that um workers from the informal waste sector can bring to the table to really help ensure that you know the design of the system meets

the local needs and um is sort of adequately addressed. And then also just

adequately addressed. And then also just allowing them to organize into, you know, cooperatives or associations um makes it easier for us to interact

with the informal waste sector. And so

those are a couple of things that we are um advocating for. You know, they're included in EPR schemes, but also, you know, sort of measures that help protect and respect, you know, their

livelihoods, the health, labor, and human rights um in in their settings.

Thanks, Sank. I I you're 100% right and I think the knowhow speaks to how do we make the most efficient system in a way

that improves quality of life but also is improving the economics of the whole of the whole system. Marcelo welcome

your thoughts.

Yeah, I think I think the informal sector sector it it's it's part of the system and it needs to be taken into account. Um in our case specifically I

account. Um in our case specifically I mean in a country with social economic challenge like Brazil um you can't ignore this

um there are critical supply for recycling materials uh which are currently the bottleneck. So the

solution is not to the solution is how do you incorporate them into your EPRS and your pros um in a in a good way in a

proper way. Um we've had

proper way. Um we've had success in this because be since we're a packing recovery organization

um PepsiCo is our client and we have other operators in the recycling space that are our suppliers and um what we have actually done and we

have several cases of this we have helped many who were informal to become formal. So listen for you to be part of

formal. So listen for you to be part of DPR system you need certain things and we have like proprietary methodologies that we developed that in order to be

part of our pro and participate into it and get the funding the the financial flows that come with it. You need

certain things and we actually help them achieve this. We don't just provide them

achieve this. We don't just provide them like this checklist and once you're done come back to us. No no what some of these people are are some of these informals are vulnerable. They need the

guidance. They need the expertise. So we

guidance. They need the expertise. So we

actually go and help them personally go to how do you get license from the city hall that so that your operation is is in order the paperworks that you need to

have in place and the fireman reviews that said that you can operate here in your in your warehouse in this building.

And we had a lot of success in doing that. Um, but I have to be honest. I

that. Um, but I have to be honest. I

think we're only scratching the surface and there's a lot of things to continue to do. Um, we welcome the challenge and

to do. Um, we welcome the challenge and look forward to it because I think they're important part of our end vision and um, we need to take them into

account. Yeah. Thank thanks Marcelo. And

account. Yeah. Thank thanks Marcelo. And

I think um acknowledging that the informal sector is different in all in in local con each local context right

and very often uh so very often the informal sector doesn't necessarily want to formalize there could be the perception that I don't want to if I

formalize I'm going to have to pay taxes or I don't want to be I don't want the government necessarily to be able to trace me or I don't want to work 9 to5.

I like the flexibility and so I think that finding solutions that make sense.

Um you know I had conversations talking about if they are earning more than they would from would have from the taxes that would be collected. you know it

goes back to showing them the benefits uh that they can have and then building the capacity and that is going to be I

think uh a very bespoke solution in each case you know s do we have you back online because I think this is also going to be I hope you can hear me now

perfect we can and I think I think this is going to be a good question for you working with the governments as well and designing EPR correct thank you thank you for the

question. Uh I was saying to to to add

question. Uh I was saying to to to add to what I've already said um that it's equally important for the private sector

uh that EPR set clear targets so that um we we it will be um um it will help

collect sufficient feed stock um to uh for the recycling industry. That's one.

Uh second talking about because the codivir case is bottletobottle recycling. Uh knowing all

bottletobottle recycling. Uh knowing all the issues that we have on the the global market um it's important to

develop to create local market for the e uh the rpt uh recycling pt. So for that uh there is

a need to set up clear policy for standards and working with the government on that. Uh demand side

policies we need to be clear that uh at certain percentage of recycling material should go to the the pro the new bottles

um so that we create local market for the recycled material. Uh we know that has been already said that vision

material sometime less price less cost less than the recycling material uh in absence of

incentives. So we need the PPR to

incentives. So we need the PPR to really set this clearly um that a part a portion of the recycling material should

go to the new bottles. So for that's but for regarding the informal that's a very important question and has been one of

the key question in Kodiva um because the in Kodiva the yes the collection rate is

still very low um but all the collected waste is done by the informal sector.

80% of it is done by the re informal sector. They are walking kilometers

sector. They are walking kilometers 10 kilometer a day uh in from the homes on the streets uh in the events to

collect these uh bottles. So um they are playing a critical role success of this

year policy. uh and we clearly added

year policy. uh and we clearly added home sector as part of the EPR uh law that we are discussing with with the

government but they are face facing challenges the working conditions for this the informal they are working uh

very precarious conditions they don't have access to equipment they are buying equipment with their very limited

revenue. Um there are no prices that um

revenue. Um there are no prices that um they have irregular if they they get

paid sometime that they're not not paid.

Um um so really and also safety security issues around what they around the the work

conditions. So the EPRO

conditions. So the EPRO um intends to really integrate the se informal sector make sure that they have they have access they have been

organized cooperatives that's one because they're not uh despite their effort they're not recognized officially so we need to organize them with

cooperatives associations and give them legal recognition so that's one first a second training they don't have

technical uh train access to training to do what they're doing, collection, shorting, cleaning. Uh sometimes uh most

shorting, cleaning. Uh sometimes uh most of the waste they collect are contaminated. Uh how to really segregate

contaminated. Uh how to really segregate and and bring uh clean uh raw material to the recycling industry. Um and and

finally access to finance. Uh access to finance is another uh topic. Um and we we are working with um uh financial

institution, mobile loan institution to see how we can uh um encourage the private informal sector to access to at

least mobile small loans uh um but loans that can make difference knowing that 60% of this uh informal sector in the

waste uh recycling is uh 60% are women. So uh very important to take into account the

gender dimension. I stop there. Thank

gender dimension. I stop there. Thank

you. Nissa, thanks. Um I uh I'm going to make a response, but after this we're we're going to pull Patrick back up uh to the panel and open it up for Q&A, but

I wanted to reflect. You brought up a couple of new points u on the size of markets. you were talking about creating

markets. you were talking about creating local markets, but let's, you know, recognize again to this no onesizefits-all.

There are some markets where the where the the infrastructure just doesn't make sense if you're only selling into your own market. So I re I

remember being very impacted especially talking to the Caribbean islands as an example uh and you know and hearing if we collected all the plastic from all of

the islands together it still wouldn't be feasible to have uh a recycling plant. And so I think that uh the

plant. And so I think that uh the thought of regional sometimes regional options may be may be necessary. We're

not going to go into that right now, but I wanted to also acknowledge that um we we need to make if we want to really

transition, we have to consider the infrastructure. How do we make recycling

infrastructure. How do we make recycling easy? Because we're not going to change

easy? Because we're not going to change behaviors. We need to change behaviors.

behaviors. We need to change behaviors.

We need to integrate the informal sector into the collections process because once again, that's about how do we get the feed stock? How do we get it in an

efficient way? How are we building um

efficient way? How are we building um the capacity and the livelihoods and creating jobs? Um and then uh you know

creating jobs? Um and then uh you know an mentioned access to the demand increases and having access to that recycled content and the quality. Uh

these are all important factors when considering how we design a program. And

I'm going to push put it out there again. I think having the inputs of the

again. I think having the inputs of the various stakeholder groups at the inception is going to be one of the best ways to design an effective EPR system

for the local context that you're working in. But I'll stop. Um Charlotte,

working in. But I'll stop. Um Charlotte,

I'm going to welcome you to uh read some of the questions for us. Oh, Marcelo,

did you wanna did you wanna come in before we open it up?

I will welcome any last thoughts from our panelists before opening it up to questions.

Marcelo no.

No. I was just I was just raising a thumbs up on some of the things that you that you were mentioning and said you're on I missed the thumbs up. No, that's

great. Then Charlotte, um uh do you want to give us some of our questions? Yes. Thanks, Lisa. We have um

questions? Yes. Thanks, Lisa. We have um about 19 minutes left, so I think we could do two rounds of questions. Um

we've received um some great questions from participants and Patrick has already been chiming in and answering on the chat. Um just some of our questions

the chat. Um just some of our questions around design and implementation. Um

first question, we see an increasing number of countries embracing EPR. any

reflections on the most impactful EPR policies in various jurisdictions and what are the common traits in these examples?

Secondly, how successful are voluntary EPR schemes? Could a government start

EPR schemes? Could a government start with a voluntary scheme before implementing a mandatory one or should it move directly to mandatory?

Third question, do you see a role for the future global plastics treaty and influencing the investment in national EPR systems? If so, how? And then maybe

EPR systems? If so, how? And then maybe just one other question. Um, this is IFC specific. Um, what key risks and

specific. Um, what key risks and barriers do investors currently perceive in EPR related projects and how is IFC helping to mitigate them?

Okay, that was a quite a variety of questions. I'm going to maybe, you know,

questions. I'm going to maybe, you know, what are some of the common traits in a successful EPR system? Um, do we bother

with voluntary or or go straight to mandatory? Some pros and cons. Um,

mandatory? Some pros and cons. Um,

there's the treaty influence and and the last one on IFC which I might come back to after. Let me open it up to our

to after. Let me open it up to our panelist. Does anyone want to take a

panelist. Does anyone want to take a first step?

I can take Yeah. Yeah. Um I think you know some of

Yeah. Yeah. Um I think you know some of the the themes have been coming through like in your summary and through the the panel discussion, right? And I think an an important one is there is no

one-sizefits-all solution, right? You can't

solution, right? You can't develop a blueprint and expect that blueprint to work in every single country around the world. I think the way to look at it is maybe through what

are the common principles, right? what

differentiates the more effective and efficient programs from those that are not gaining traction and I think it's sort of building that understanding around those common principles and

thinking through how can we replicate them but how do we need to adjust them to be more responsive to the respective so um circumstances I think there are

some programs that are performing well in the sense of they reach high collection and recycling rates. Um they are relatively um

rates. Um they are relatively um efficient and cost effective when you look at you know the cost per ton to manage a material but those are often also systems that have had time to

mature and improve and get better over time. So I think recognizing that this

time. So I think recognizing that this is going to be a journey and it's going to be iterative I think is with regards to voluntary and mandatory

I think again there is no black and white answer right I think um the the big benefit of mandatory programs is that you know it you know as

you said earlier it levels the playing field it brings all of the actors in that jurisdiction um together everyone has a responsibility ility and it provides certainty and it helps sort of

de-risk some of those investments. Um

it's much harder to do in the voluntary space because you're counting on a few leading actors to pave the way for then everyone to come in and depending on the

appetite and momentum and reassurance it's much harder to get to the scale and to build the speed. So I think you know that is where policy can really be a

catalyst towards scale and you sort of building the momentum and you know tying that to the plastics treaty right absolutely you know as a

um you know company you sort of hoping for more like EPR we see the plastics treaty as a unique opportunity to help build that understanding around why EPR

is a critical tool in the toolbox and we're hoping that you know the discussions um you know can lead to a more you know sort of um harmonized understanding of what these principles

are that drive towards you know or underpin the success of EPR programs. So we're hoping that you know this will be adequately reflected in the provisions of the plastics treaty.

Okay. Thank you Marcelo. I'd like to ask your also your perspective on the voluntary versus mandatory uh that impacts demand of course and any of the

other questions but um I can bring I can probably I I this is probably a good it's an area

where you pro we probably have data to support what has actually happened. I

can share you guys the Brazilian experience which is with with voluntary we reached a certain

number of clients and once regulation came in that number catapulted by 15 times that's a number of clients in

terms of tonnage of um certified recyclables it's much more than 15 um soar Our experiences

voluntary brought us to a certain level and it was instrumental into building our solution in terms of our product, our offering and so forth and so on.

Those early adopter customers are were extremely helpful in terms of providing feedback and adjusting the business

model to be what it is today.

But I mean the numbers at least from our screen show that once you have regulation it's it's just too too too powerful to overlook the uh the

importance of u of being mandatory.

Marcelo, thanks. And uh and how did that impact the investment in in Brazil?

Because my understanding is that that you know as that demand grew you Euro Cyclo is also now investing making

in investments in infrastructure in multiple you know areas and was that driven by the man by this new policy and the fact that it was mandatory and the

increase in demand?

Yeah, absolutely. Because

initially since it was voluntary, there was enough recycling infrastructure to build a model just based on the voluntary, but

once it becomes mandatory, demand just grows to a point. Um, and and our regulation has set targets for the

coming year. So we we pretty much

coming year. So we we pretty much understood that how much the country needed to achieve in terms of recycling

and since we we have a huge database of of recycling proprietary we knew that the gap was tremendous. We said how are we going to solve this because there's

there's simply going to be the supply is going to be the next bottleneck. Demand

is the regulation has given us a demand.

The supply is going to be the the next bottleneck. So we've engaged in smaller

bottleneck. So we've engaged in smaller projects that can be as simple and small

size as we have financed small vehicles like small small trucks backed by recycling credits for operator that just

needed financing to have a better truck so he could collect more. And we can see that he increased his recycling um rates

um made more money, paid us, paid us back the vehicle, everybody was happy.

He couldn't tap into financing because it was too small. That was one. We have

other examples of setting up glass in the Amazon that there was absolutely no chains. Um we call these smaller scales.

chains. Um we call these smaller scales.

All of these are I mean the the individual impact is very good but in the grand scheme of things they they actually don't move the needle. And so

now what we're trying to do is how do we move the needle in a in a country with 220 million people that produces 80

million tons of residual municipal waste every single year. How do we increase recycling rates in scale? And um I've been working on this for the last three

to four years. Um yeah, we we've come a long way and um yeah, early next year we're going to have some um um

presentable development so to speak.

Thank thanks Marcelo. I uh I wanted to highlight your point in having targets creates that as a private company you

can anticipate the needs for investments so you can prepare for those investments already because it takes time. Uh you

also brought up access to financing. No,

I want to turn to you. What's

interesting is we had conversations with several banks and banking associations who said to us, look, we if there is policy, there will be

action which will create the demand. If

we know that there are projects out there, we will respond. And it comes back to, you know, financial institutions need to know that there's

demand. They also need to know what

demand. They also need to know what counts and what doesn't count. And so I will make a plug for the fact that IFC launched its circular economy finance

guidelines two weeks ago in Brazil. Uh

which also does help banks you know check mark this counts that doesn't count etc. But uh hopefully uh we can start pushing in these multiple

directions. You know sir question to you

directions. You know sir question to you voluntary mandatory how is how is that looking in um in kivvoir

and welcome any of the other comments or questions.

Okay, thank you very much Visa. Um, so

uh the the the question has been also discussed uh between the government and private sector and Kodiva and the choice

um the final decision is to go for mandatory mandatory EPR system. Um why? because um

we want everybody to contribute because it's um hormone issue. Um everybody who

contribute to generate uh waste should be paying to help uh u manage this waste. So that's one principle and all

waste. So that's one principle and all the private companies um as business association they all

agree with that. Um second if we go for voluntary um there is a risk for free riders to uh or mis waste mismanagement.

What we don't want is to implement uh EPR in an environment where we can see waste some waste uh that are badly

managed because um a company uh in a voluntary um system it's very difficult to control and to make sure that

everybody is complying. So that's uh another point and uh we also look at what happened elsewhere in uh in our

surrounding countries uh we see that uh voluntary doesn't work. Uh even in in

doesn't work. Uh even in in I see in the presentation that now these countries are moving from mandator from

voluntary to mandatory uh because uh this uh um this voluntary

system may have reached its limit. So

that's uh our opinion but the EPR in Kodi and given the size of the market we decid the government and private sector

decided to go directly for mandatory um system.

Um the I saw the there is a question in the chat. I don't know maybe I can I can

the chat. I don't know maybe I can I can respond to that regarding the the health issues and health risk how we manage

that including work but for me the main objective successful EPR is to reach zero 0%

waste generated so we shouldn't be seeing waste in the environment if it's properly implemented. We we shouldn't be

properly implemented. We we shouldn't be seeing landfield developing because we also we are also withdrawing

waste to make them um feed stock for the industry. So removing

industry. So removing Oh no, we may have lost your Oh, I think you just came back. Did you

want to make that last statement? Yeah.

Sorry. I don't know why but I'm in the office.

So I was saying that yes by removing all the waste from living environment we are improving our living conditions and we

are also addressing health potential health issues. Um what uh I mentioned

health issues. Um what uh I mentioned health I mentioned uh I was referring to

how to help the informal sector dominated by women to access to at least

health health care services and we will do that through what call in SIMU

which is national health insurance program that the government launched uh recently. So that's how we see we can

recently. So that's how we see we can really address these health issues um while also uh developing opportunities

for uh businesses uh in the recycling chair. You know, that's great. I I do

chair. You know, that's great. I I do want to come back to Patrick. I know

that we're probably not going to have time for another round of questions. So,

I will pass back to Charlotte in one moment. But, you know, so you're also

moment. But, you know, so you're also bringing up uh another benefit for governments as well. One, when we implement a successful EPR system, we

are reducing waste in our environment.

We're creating more green space. We're

creating a better environment to create more economic opportunities in the in the city which allows it's happier

citizens. It is uh less health care

citizens. It is uh less health care costs. It is more economic opportunities

costs. It is more economic opportunities because now those spaces that were filled with with garbage could actually

be new parks, new um you know areas for people to enjoy their Sunday afternoon and these are also extra taxes for

governments. And so there are a lot of

governments. And so there are a lot of anciliary benefits for governments, for society, for job creation. uh when we

are implementing an effective EPR system. Patrick um I would really you

system. Patrick um I would really you see you have a global perspective on all of these the voluntary the mandatory the trends in terms of EPR systems. I'd

welcome your your thoughts and um on that I know you're also present at the treaty negotiations. So any of your

treaty negotiations. So any of your thoughts on the questions we we'd love to hear your voice.

Okay. Yeah. No, thank you for the question. Just uh briefly, um yes, uh

question. Just uh briefly, um yes, uh mandatory systems are much more effective. So there's I think you can

effective. So there's I think you can there's a progression. You can start with voluntary, but there should be a clear timeline when this moves to a mandatory system. Um and

mandatory system. Um and yeah, I agree with all I think all the things that um everyone was saying just just before just on on on the treaty. Um

and I I tried to answer a little bit in the chat. So there's mention of EPR. Um

the chat. So there's mention of EPR. Um

there's not very strong language requesting or demanding that countries implement EPR. So it's at the moment

implement EPR. So it's at the moment encouraging. Um I I personally would

encouraging. Um I I personally would like to see a bit stronger um language on this but again there's the um there's

the question on capacity to implement EPRS. So um this like goes a step back

EPRS. So um this like goes a step back because although it assigns responsibility um to producers and the private sector

uh the public sector still needs to do a lot of work within an EPR not only like to set it up so there's issues around the capacity of government agencies

um also later on capacity to audit there needs to be like inter agency coordin the nation um the stakeholder engagement uh that needs to be done by by the

government. Um there also then the

government. Um there also then the technical expertise that's needed amongst um uh public um public sector

officials. Uh so all of that needs to be

officials. Uh so all of that needs to be developed before the EPR system can actually be uh set up and run. Um and I

guess under the treaty um that could be mechanisms actually to provide this type of capacity building to uh government agencies to to start

the EPR uh design process and in the treaty uh text at the moment but this is still bracketed so

it's still up for negotiations. Um EPR

is also linked to the uh to article 11.

I think it's on the financial mechanism.

So EPR as a means to uh leverage national funds for plastic waste management. Um but also then maybe

management. Um but also then maybe linked it could be potentially as well linked to um international support. So

for example financing and it comes back to the investment as well. Um so

countries will be able to attract investment plus maybe funds under the treaty if they have uh effective EPR systems in

place. So these are uh all

place. So these are uh all interconnected issues and um yeah there's a whole package of things that needs to be addressed.

Thank Thanks, Patrick. And I and I I know that we're at time. Um I will just also say that the treaty is a great um opportunity to influence, educate, and

build capacity. We're going to need

build capacity. We're going to need capacity, but EPR systems, irrespective of the treaty, have significant benefits

for for for governments, national and local. And so as a development community

local. And so as a development community being able to provide the support to governments to develop those um effective systems are going to be great.

I want to thank our panelists for a great discussion. An Gustavo you know

great discussion. An Gustavo you know Patrick um thanks for being with us today. Thank you for um all of the

today. Thank you for um all of the audience for joining us. Uh Charlotte

just put up a a scan. We would really appreciate if you just take a really quick survey so that we can um know what

more you'd like from us and how we can better inform the uh all of the audience and the community on on the critical elements of EPR. So, a big thank you

again. Hope you have a great rest of

again. Hope you have a great rest of your day.

Thanks everyone. Thank you all. Thank

you.

You guys.