Wabi's Eugenia Kuyda on software's "YouTube moment"

Today we live in the era of Microsoft

DOSs um interfaces for AI and there will

be something more very visually um

enticing something gooey based think of

it as there was Microsoft DOSs and then

Windows or Mac OS appeared so there will

be a different I I' I'd almost say

operating system a different interface

layer on top of AI that will allow

people to use all software not just apps

but also AI models in this completely

new different

Welcome to Access the Tech Industries

inside conversation part of the Vox

Media podcast network. I'm your host

Ellis Hamburger here with my co-host

Alex Heath. And today we've got Eugenia

Kua, the founder and CEO of Wabby, a new

app for building apps. Apps inside your

apps.

>> Apps inside your apps. one of my

favorite most thoughtful founders and we

jammed a little bit on the Wabby launch

which we go into a bit but I just feel

like she has an ethos for what she's

building that a lot of founders don't

have. You know what I mean?

>> Yeah, she's got cred. What did she do

before this?

>> She created Replica which was like the

OG AI chat companion app. I think they

definitely treaded into the romance

territory a lot faster than many others

did. Now 10, 15 years later, Elon Musk

is trying to build your new AI date or

side piece. How how how would you

describe it? It's becoming mainstream

finally. She's ahead of the curve.

>> Elon's going in a totally different

direction, I think. Um yeah. No, uh

she's uh very interesting. Like I I

Replica was a very interesting company

when it launched and it still has a ton

of users. I think it has millions of

users just flies a little more under the

radar relative to like character and

chatbt obviously but yeah definitely an

OG in the AI space and WAB is a super

interesting product. Did you work on

this manifesto that they put out?

>> Yes, we did. Uh my bread and butter. You

actually liked it.

>> I do like it. I like the play on like

the there's an app for that and you know

personalized software and all that. I

mean it's a theme we've been having on

this show really since we launched is

this idea of personalized software.

>> Yeah. It's kind of funny because every

single founder I've ever worked with and

ever will work with wants to make their

own think different or Apple 1984 ad or

maybe like subvert it or riff on it in

some way and it almost never works. But

this was the kind of occasion where

pushing off of app for that to do an app

for you

>> actually made some sense cuz there's a

real tension there assuming that Apple

doesn't uh cancel them before they can

>> they can get off the ground. But I guess

there's some new rules that that she's

privy to that they're following. And so

yeah, she seems confident they're going

to be okay.

>> Yeah. Before we get into that,

everything else good with you. Did you

have a good weekend?

>> Yeah, you know, uh kids sick again,

getting me sick again. Round and round

it goes. Uh, I've been playing the new

Final Fantasy Tactics game

>> for Switch. Leveling up my mages when I

have 18 minutes of toilet time in

privacy. Makes you think about your life

like an RPG in some ways. Like, I think

I'm going to I think I'm going to level

up my podcast skills with this new

microphone. Did you ever think about

your life that way? I I don't know if if

you were ever a gamer.

>> Absolutely.

>> What are you What are you leveling up at

the moment? Uh, well, I haven't had time

to game. I would say the last game I

played all the way through was The Last

Zelda on Switch, the sequel. Um, those

two games are my favorite games.

>> Yeah. That I've played as an adult.

Those are my favorite games by far. Uh,

and definitely like had a lot of dreams

about those games when I was playing

them a lot. But I haven't in a while.

I've been so still heads down in just

like a new media startup mode, man. Um,

going to New York next week. going to

have a sources launch party with the

fine folks at Human Ventures. Wish you

could come. We will uh

>> human or human.

>> Human human ventures.

>> Kind of like Humid Ventures.

>> Human Ventures. Uh no, they're great.

It's going to be a great group. Uh

pretty like interesting mix of media and

tech folks. And um we're going to have

poker too, so that'll be fun. Um

>> are you plugging this? Are invites open

or is this a VIP thing? I mean, I didn't

hear about it, so I guess it's pretty

exclusive.

>> I knew you were going to be in New York,

man. Uh, if you can text me, you can

still come. So, if you have my number,

reach out if you're going to be in New

York. Um, but we are pretty much at

capacity, which was awesome. I spent a

lot of time this week with the new

leadership team for GitHub at Microsoft.

So, keeping with our vibe coding theme,

uh, interviewed their new head of GitHub

for sources.news, uh, will have been out

by the time this drops. um and about how

they're thinking about the uh AI kind of

developer ecosystem. So, if you're

interested in that stuff, check it out.

And uh had a pretty big scoop about Snap

uh actually last week and

>> Oh yeah, we got to talk about that.

>> Yeah, we can just talk about real

quickly just uh man Evans out there

looking for some money for for specs.

>> Snaps ties in the Middle East deepen.

>> Well, I think the most interesting thing

is this idea of making specs like Whimo.

also positioning it as this subsidiary

that could be funded with outside

investors like a alphabet style other

bet. Uh basically

>> I think the most interesting part is not

that but the original pictures of uh

Snap CEO Evan Spiegel uh participating

in falconry with the Saudi crown prince.

>> Oh well that's what you do when you go

out there. They love falconry. You don't

know that's that's like a right of

passage when you're when you're visiting

uh the the royal family. speaking from

experience.

>> Uh, you know, no comment, but um

but no uh yeah, just if you're into this

AR glasses, you know, um uh race and you

know, we talked about it with Samir last

week. Check that scoop out about Snap's

glasses plans and how they're

restructuring. But, uh yeah.

>> Yeah, that was a good scoop, Alex.

>> Thank you. Thank you. I'll try.

>> Give yourself a little pat on the back

for that one.

>> Yeah. No, thank you. I feel like, you

know, it's one thing when you're at a

website like The Verge and you see

traffic bumps when you get scoops and

whatnot. I mean, how's that been so far

with with the newsletter?

>> It's subscriber bumps or

>> Yeah. I mean, it's the thing that

converts, you know, it's the thing that

converts someone to paid. Um, it's

pretty easy to get free, you know, high

churn, low engagement users, right? Um,

with like a sign up, you know, chum box.

But the thing that really builds your

subscriber base is information people

can't get anywhere else. you know,

whether it's like an interview or a

scoop. And I've known that just working

behind pay walls for much of my career

that that's how it works. So, everything

I'm doing right now with sources is like

it I'm trying to keep the quality bar

really high and it'd be something you

can't get anywhere else. And um it works

if they cite you, right? I know they

don't they don't all and then you get a

little mad on Twitter, which I always

like to see.

>> Oh, well, yeah. That's just, you know,

that's just inside journalism baseball

stuff. But yeah, people people know who

know when they're not linking and I love

to prod them.

>> Is there any is there any person or

publication that has cited you the least

>> relatively? How deliberate is it?

>> There's a couple I'd have to go back and

count. Um it's very deliberate.

>> There's some like make it a practice

like what is it like the New York Times

like deliberate?

>> The New York Times has actually gotten a

lot better. They used to be really bad

about linking out but they've gotten a

lot better. Um, it's actually um some of

the more digital first publications that

are increasingly petty about this stuff.

I I don't know if it's wise for me to

name names. I'm not trying to like get

into another um another minefield there,

but uh I'll keep uh subtly jabbing at at

vague people that they know who they are

on social media.

Uh but yeah, man. No, otherwise things

are good. Excited for this convo with

Eugenia.

>> Awesome. Let's kick it to Eugenia.

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[Music]

Eugenia Kuida, my friend and

collaborator. Welcome to the show.

>> Hey, Jennio. Nice to meet you.

>> Hi, Alex. Nell, it's still good to uh

see her.

>> How does it feel to be doing a podcast

when you should probably be preparing

launch materials for your public launch

next week?

>> Well, it feels pretty hectic. We're

really uh we've just been heads down and

it's a little bit tough because I'm used

to just building one app and now I feel

like we're building an app that builds a

million apps. So, it feels like we're

launching, I don't know, a million

different apps, which is exponentially

harder than just one app because now

everything can go wrong. Like every

single uh there like basically gazillion

bugs that could happen.

>> I was going to say that's a lot of bugs

and a lot of app store guidelines to

follow when you have apps inside of

apps.

>> That is true, but there are many apps.

They're not really big apps. So, you

know, for for the app store, uh the app

store has a curveout for many apps and

with Wabby, you cannot use them outside

of our platform.

>> She's saying this to the app review gods

right now in Certino. It's many apps.

It's mini apps.

>> I'm I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm a little

You know,

>> they are the gods. They are the arbiters

of truth as we've had it for uh how many

years now? Like literally two decades.

And um yeah, I think that's like one of

my favorite parts of your teaser website

that you just went up with and we should

get into Wabby and your history with

replica when we were together. I just

love that line we came up with like not

there's an app for that but there's an

app for you and I think that came from

an insight that like you had. Can you

tell us about the origin of this thing?

Like like all of us I have a gazillion

apps on my um iPhone and for most of

them I just forget what what they are. I

use maybe 10 uh daily or weekly and then

the rest is just basically a graveyard

of forgotten apps. Uh some of them char

still charge me. Some of them I don't

even know what they do. Um and so it

felt like today when you can spin up an

app so quickly with AI using any of the

you know existing tools. Why can't I

just kind of use apps like that versus

like I have to go to the app store and

so find something and it's all one

sizefits-all. it's all trying to get me

through this kind of onboarding that

tries to influence me to pay and then

forget to cancel and this and that and

really relying on all these dark

patterns. So, it felt like there should

be um a new platform, a new platform

where people are creating apps uh

quickly sharing with other people, other

people are discovering apps, maybe

remixing them and so on so on so on. Um

it does feel that all of our lives are

pretty unique um and problems are pretty

unique. There there are definitely a lot

of common issues but still we have very

unique uh preferences and it just feels

like we need specific solutions for our

specific problems uh throughout the day.

>> Well, I have a specific problem and this

morning I made an app on Wabby called

how many poops and here's what it does.

The pediatrician always wants to know,

as you know, Eugenia, how many times

your your baby pooped, or as as I prefer

to call them, BMS for bowel movements.

And I'm like, this does not deserve

Burning Man.

>> Not this time. Not this time. And so all

it does is it has one button and I'm

like, I also want average poops per day.

And I hit go and I closed out Wobbby.

And then 5 minutes later, it was done.

And it's got like nice little icons and

everything. And I'm like, "Yeah, this

does not deserve to be an entire

venture-backed product, but it does

deserve to to exist for me." So, uh,

thank you for that. And I mean, there

are so many alternatives when you're a

parent, but they're just filled with

constant upsells. Like, would you like

to upgrade to Baby Poop Pro that

includes length, girth, and weight

tracking of the BMS?

>> Sounds helpful.

>> I don't really need that, do I? And so,

yeah, that that definitely appealed to

me about your vision is that it's not

that you're trying to replace like

Airbnb or maybe that is your vision, but

for all the little things that we didn't

even know could be software every day.

Pretty cool.

>> Yeah. Like the other day, I was putting

my daughter to sleep and she wants to

play puzzles. Like basically, I just

tell her something and she tries to

guess what it is. Um, she wants to also

look at pictures and she likes Princess

Jasmine and Princess Ela. So, took me 3

minutes in Wobbby just to make that

puzzle app where where I read it out to

her and she can look at different

pictures and click on them and that's a

constant hit. So, she's learning

something and then we made it in Italian

because she goes to Italian preschool

and now she's also learning Italian and

it took us basically 2 minutes. We were

doing it while in bed together. Um so

these are really the uh the use cases

and I don't even know whether an app

like that exists and looking for one

going through on boards trying them out

downloading it actually was longer than

just building it quickly to my spec on

Wabby. And then I also found out that

certain times like for example I've been

trying to do weightlifting. So I'm

trying to log log my workouts. I I've

been using um just notes on my iPhone.

Before then, I tried a bunch of

different apps. Again, they did just had

so much different functionality that I

didn't need or I didn't like how it was

working. So, I built I just built a

simple one on Wobby. And what I like

about is that I go to the gym, I work

out, and every day I every time I work

out, I find something else I want to add

to my app. First, it was just for

tracking workouts. Then I wanted to add

um suggestions. So now it basically

creates automatically a workout that I

can track based on like progressive

overload and based on all my different

things that I'm trying to achieve based

on on all my goals. So like every time I

go and then I wanted to made it a little

bit more minimalist and black and white

and then I want to change the app pack

and so now it feels like a little almost

like a little garden a little project

that I continue to work on but it's not

really work. It's literally I'm doing it

in between sets. I don't have anything

to do. So I just add a little prompt in

chat and wait how my app is changing and

improving all the time and I keep

republishing it to the Wii app store. Um

so that why you know other users

potentially can use that and I feel

there's something about it. There's

really something about having your own

very personal software that you're

taking care of that you're using it uh

constantly improving and all that. And

hopefully just like we really think

Wabby could be sort of the the YouTube

moment for apps. Um, and for many

people, they won't even be creating

anything new. They will just be

discovering, maybe remixing a little bit

or just using apps that other people

built.

>> Eugene, I love what you're doing because

I do think personalized apps are kind of

where everything is headed. At the same

time, it feels like Wabby is a little

contrarian because if you talk to people

at Meta or Google, they will tell you

that according to their data, the

average person downloads zero new apps

per month. So there's this idea of app

saturation where everybody's, you know,

got their home screen in order. Yeah,

maybe there's a Sora or something once a

year that pops up and, you know, resets

things a little bit or gets people to

download, but for the most part, people

have settled into their rhythms and

there's just not a lot of buzz in like

the traditional app world anymore. Um,

so I'm curious like, you know, you

founded Replica, very successful early

chatbot platform. Um, how did you decide

on this idea as what you wanted to do

next? Because I imagine when you started

it, it probably felt even a little more

contrarian than it does now where you're

seeing a lot of vibe coding going into

mobile and people realizing that you can

actually just make apps on the fly on

mobile, not even on desktop.

>> So, I'm used to that. So, when we just

when we started replica and in fact we

started something that prior to replica

which was basically um technology so

models to generate dialects. So

conversational tech uh kind of chatbot

builder thing but this way and when we

started that the the feedback we got

from some of the VCs we met was well you

got to build it for Google Glass and

then maybe we'll

>> oh my gosh

>> the best because we can't figure out any

other use case. This will never be

useful for anything but maybe maybe for

Google Glass.

>> Those VCs really know what's coming

next, don't they?

>> Yeah. So wise always seeing around

corners. Yeah, they're very, you know,

VCs have great insight, but sometimes

they just engage in this crazy group

thing. I remember in 2022 once tragic

came out, the obsession was like every

consu product company needs to raise a

gazillion dollars and build their own

foundational model because if you don't

have your own foundation model, you're

basically gone. You're like, you should

be dead. You're just like some rapper.

You have to have that data flywheel or

whatever that meant to train your

foundation model. And all of that was

completely wrong. So all the of course

but that was the obsession then. So

sometimes VCs get into this I remember

in 2016 it was all about well chat bots

are the new apps and now you know

because they saw we chat I guess and

then like everything needs to be in the

chatbot format. So they were weather

apps that you would talk to to get a

weather update which was if you think

about it pretty crazy but um

>> your own personal weatherman

>> and same goes to bigger companies.

Sometimes they see the future, but

sometimes if you think about the use

cases they show sometimes in some of

these videos, it's it's always some sort

of restaurant reservation use case. Like

who has that? Like I don't know.

>> VC I'll tell you who has a lot of dinner

reservations. It's VCs.

>> It's always it's some dinner reservation

problem. I'm like I don't have any

dinner reservation problems. I go to

restaurants but I also have two toddlers

and I don't really have any problem

choosing a restaurant. Of course, our

very first product with a replica

pre-repplica was a demo of a restaurant

recommendation app. So, I'm of course

on myself. I do remember it was

last year of Paul Graham at Y Cominator.

We met him for office hours and he

looked at us like, "Sir, you're building

what restaurant recommendation app? Who

got you in? I need to go and fire that

partner." And then, of course, he, you

know, figured we're building

conversational. And he said, "Just never

say, never ever talk about restaurant

recommendations. This is awful." And so

going back to your question like why did

I decide to to work on this idea? I was

just talking to replica users all the

time and I would always ask ask them do

you use other AIs? do you besides

replica and I always thought they'll of

course tell me yeah of course I'm using

a clot or chup or this or that and

oftent times they would tell me that

they don't really use other AIs that

much and I started to look more into

what people use chip t for of course

there are tons of users almost a billion

users and uh basically the use cases are

pretty much just writing as a writing

tool uh search asking general questions

and that's sort of that and of course

for all of us working in AI we know how

much more these AI models can can do.

Um, and so we started looking to that

and I feel like really it's the problem

of the interface. When you look at a

command line, which is what every

chatbot, every Chadupti, Gemini, all of

them are just these command line

interfaces. When you look at a command

line for a regular person, the

affordance of that interface is pretty

much just that search writing tool or

you can talk to it or messenger. Um and

of and and I and I do think there a lot

many more use cases are just basically

being trapped behind that command line.

Um so we thought of it that today we

live in the era of Microsoft DOSs um

interfaces like the uh for AI and there

will be something more something very

visually um enticing something much more

exciting interactive something gooey

based think of it as there was Microsoft

DOS and then Windows or Mac OS appeared

so there will be a different I I' I'd

almost say operating system a different

interface layer on top of AI that will

allow people to use all software, not

just apps, but also AI models in this

completely new different way. And if you

think about it, right now we talk about

separately apps that you download from

the app store and separately how we use

chip or prompts. But in reality, it all

should be the same. Like if I'm using

chip as a therapist, for example, or a

lot of people use it to track calories,

I kind of want a specific interface. I

don't want to be doing that in chat. I

want maybe a little app that is fully

powered by the same tragic tea or

whatever the model of your choice but

has a little bit of like what I ate

yesterday some trans maybe a streak or

whatever you want but you sort of want a

little bit of an interface on top of

that you don't just want to be doing

that in chat um and so this I think our

wave vision I do think combines the use

how you use AI models and just the new

type of software it all becomes kind of

what part of the same operating system.

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One interesting thing you've done is in

kind of imposed some type of design

system on all the different apps you

could generate with Wabby and I think on

the one hand it's kind of constraining

and maybe can look generic but on the

other it's like most vibecoded apps look

like How did you make that

decision? How early did you make that

decision that you needed to kind of

enforce some type of design system with

the buttons and icons and all that

stuff? So we actually give a very loose

design system to the models. So they're

not being overprompted by that. So they

can still create a very, you know, very

they can be very free in what they

create. If you want it to look like the

Harry Potter themed app, you can still

create that. But we do create a bunch of

components that we show to the models

that they can use and then edit. And the

reason being for us the vision was like

if this is going to be another place

that where you can create tons of very

ugly looking similar vibe coded apps

with beige oatmeal background and blue

buttons. Uh it's just going to look so

boring and awful. In the end of the day,

people do respond to better design. Uh

but they also like but you also have to

always balance it with the fact that

they want their own thing. If you ever

um go on the subway and you know you sit

with a person with an Android phone,

you'll see some crazy fonts that people

choose as customization options. I

iPhone doesn't allow you to do that.

>> That's right.

>> But you know, Android does and you know

a lot of things there people that just

set like Comic Sense as their default

font and just live with that and they

love it. Um and nothing bad about it.

Just people want their own

>> Who are we to judge, right?

>> Who are we to judge? We're not judging.

Just don't bring a comic sands uh deck

to Y cominator

unless you already have 85,000 followers

and then they're like, "Wait, what do

they know that we don't know?" Okay,

we're funding them.

>> Exactly. So, I do think and I don't

think there's one good taste or

whatever. It's just that there's some

taste that's good for a lot of people

that people think, oh, this is kind of

well produced, but then there's also

personalization and people want what

they want and you got to give it to

them. you can't just say, well, it's

everything is just going to look like

this iPhone generic sort of whatever app

or some material design app. So, we

tried to find that balance, but I do

think there's absolutely

I think this is just about to come where

we'll see um AI generated apps that look

better or just like the best designed

apps uh made by humans. And I think this

makes just the usage of these apps a lot

more

exciting. Um, if you think about it, but

also I would also say that add one more

thing to that. There's, for example, my

apps, I make them all black and white,

uh, minimal and just kind of very clean

just cuz I like it this way. I'm I have

a little bit of OCD. I want everything

to be in its own little container. So, I

like when they're all kind of the same

color and there's nothing uh special

about them. If you think about it, I

would never launch an app like that on

the app store because people it's people

are not going to convert. They won't

like it. It's too boring. There's not,

you know, it's not some cool dopamine

thing. It's not jumping at them. But I

want my software to be the way I want

it. I don't want it to be whatever

dopamine kind of inducing stuff. That's

I I want it this way. And maybe some

other person wants it in a completely

different way, colorful or all styled

like, you know, Windows 95 style.

whatever they want. Or retro pixelated

or crazy, vibrant, eccentric, whatever.

>> I'm one of those dudes who still wants

all my apps to be felt, leather, or

wood. Is that permitted?

>> Oh,

>> you and Scott for stall, buddy.

>> That's very wobbby.

>> Yo, Scott's the goat.

>> Yeah,

>> if we get him on, I would uh be able to

retire happily.

>> Oh, for sure.

>> Do you know him, Eugenia?

>> No.

>> I feel like you know everybody.

>> I don't think so.

>> We got to get SC. You can work on that.

>> I I want to work on that. Okay.

>> Can people make companionship AIs with

Wabby? Does this tie back into what you

were doing before at all?

>> They can. And there's a whole kind of

the chat apps is like a big type that

you can totally create and do whatever

you want. And in fact, I think this is

where Wabby really shines. Think May

therapy app or a companion app. Uh with

Wabby, we wanted to for everyone to be

able to see if there's anything AI

generated. You can see the prompts and

you can ch choose the model. It's never

something hidden from you. So if there's

any agent flow or any AI flow, you can

see the prompts even if it's not your

app, change it, do whatever you want to

to that. So, I think it makes this um a

really good way to kind of for everyone

to own and kind of not have companions

that may that maybe have some dark

goals. You can always see what the goal

is in the prompt. You can always change

it. It's like a container for

containers, like a sandbox for all these

different prompts. Did you share

something the other day that called it

like a platform for prompt containers? I

thought that was an interesting way to

think about it. Like there are a lot of

prompts that you could ask chat GPT or

other AIs, but not only do they not have

a UI, but most of these tools don't have

ways to save them and reuse them.

>> Yeah, I think one of the uh use cases

that for me is very important is people

today share prompts. Uh and how do they

do that? They put it on, you know, text

on Reddit or Twitter or threads or

whatever and they say this is my perfect

prompt to do this and that on Chad and

then people have to copy that prompt,

paste it into Chad or wherever and then

do something with it and that just feels

so archaic. We're dealing with this

technology that's pretty much godlike

and what we need to do is copy paste

some big, you know, text paragraphs and

put them somewhere. Uh, this was crazy.

So instead of that, we felt like with

Wabby, you can just create a very simple

mini app and just to share that. So the

prompt is right there. You can always

find it and change it and see it. But

you don't need to do anything. You're

already presented with the app where you

just have to click click click and

immediately, you know, do whatever you

want to do with that model. You don't

need to go anywhere and copy paste

anything. Uh and so for me that's one of

the most exciting use cases because that

combines the two big sort of um the two

big um things. One is by coding apps and

one is using AI models to talk to them

and get something. So all together it

Wabby basically brings both of these use

cases together. How do you treat data in

this context then? Especially if people

are going to make, you know, therapy

apps with Wabby. Uh people at least have

some semblance of an idea of how their

data is used with OpenAI or whatever.

But how how do you treat that with WIB?

>> Well, so I think the only way for uh

people to use VIcoded AI therapy apps uh

by some other people is to create a

platform to create some organizational

layer. Um, and here Wabby takes care of

all that. All the data is private. Of

course, we we we already took a bunch of

steps with security because it's not our

first rodeo and we've we've done it with

replica by the way. Replican 10 years,

never been hacked. Knock on wood. Never

had any data leak problems and so on.

Here are the same. We believe this is

super critical. And one of the biggest

problems with VIP coded apps, say you

created an AI therapy app and you send

me a link. I don't know if I'm going to

use it really because first of all, you

can see the data and I don't know if

you're going to read it or what. Second

of all, you're not a professional app

developer. So, I don't know. Maybe

tomorrow something just leaks. One of

the vi famous vibe coded apps, whatever

the tea, was that the tea bag?

>> Yeah, the tea app. Yeah, it got taken

off the app store recently.

>> Oh, it did. It was VIP coded and it was

taking all the sensitive data from women

that were sharing basically uh their

stories with Yeah. did review whatever

was sex offenders and stuff and then of

course all that data got leaked because

it was vipcoded not because the person

who built it was a bad actor but he

didn't know and didn't work on security

of that app. So I believe for vip coding

if you're building anything that has to

do with any sensitive data of any kind

it's almost no one's going to use

someone else's vibe coded app where the

person is in charge of the database and

kind of supporting the app. There needs

to be a platform because we're not

thinking, well, you know, if I'm

watching YouTube, um, I kind of just

agree to YouTube's terms of services.

I'm not like really sending my data or

whatever to

>> Yeah. You don't think a certain YouTube

video is going to like prompt inject

your your Mac or something, right?

>> Yeah. So, you sort of have to have this

platform that provides all of that like

everything comes with it. Um, and it

also maybe even nothing leaks, but then

you just forget to update your whatever

payment information on Replet or lovable

and your app's just gone and then all my

therapy logs are gone. So that's also

not great. So I feel like without an

organizational layer though, people are

never going to be using other people's

bipoded apps. That's kind of my big uh

without some platform, we're not going

to be using, you know, we're not I'm not

going to be taking your AI journaling

link and starting to keep a very private

journal. Um somewhere somewhere there.

>> What else does that platform include? Uh

are there payments, social graph, what

else is kind of added to the SDK if you

will uh for each of the vibe coded apps?

So super important thing is on Wabby you

can't download any apps you have to only

use them there. So that comes with

that's a constraint but it comes with so

many benefits. First of all, data

security. The fact that there's a

persistent backend like your data is

always there. You can come back and use

it uh a year from now. It's every all

the history is still there. But it also

comes with a bunch of different uh

powerups. Call it this way. Integrations

with all sorts of um AI models, image

gen models, um voice gen voice uh models

and so on. As well as integrations with

all your apps and services. So you can

connect your Gmail, you can build apps

on top of Apple Health, on top of um

your calendar, on top of your bank

account, whatever you want. You want an

app that generates an action figure uh

out of your based on your bank account

activity. Sure. You know, it's like

whatever you want. You can come up with

really creative ways of of doing things.

>> A broke superhero,

>> a a broke.

Um so all of that plus of course the

social graph. So you can also see if you

think about the app store, it's actually

really not social. So this week we're uh

pushing a big social update on the app

store. You can't see what your friends

are using, what apps your friends are

using or um you know, you can't see

comments to any apps. You can see the

reviews, but review is sort of like a

>> it's pretty crazy when you think about

it that way.

>> Yeah. And it's a whole thing. Instead,

on Wabby, you'll be able to like any app

you want. You can see how who is

downloading these apps like any of your

friends or any of the people you follow

downloaded this app and you can see

comments. So apps could create mini apps

could become a conversation starter a

start for a small community. Um people

can show off what they're creating with

different mini apps in comments. They

can also ask the creator for a certain

update. Um and there's also like if I

want for this you know for for a new

feature in this app I can remix and

build myself or I can ask the creator to

update it for all of us. So, it's going

to be even more fun. We can all continue

to use it with the community. Um, and so

on, so on so on. And of course,

multiplayer. So, something else we're

working on um now is being able to use

all of these apps together with your

friends. Invite invite your best friend,

invite your partner, uh, whoever you

want to, I don't know, uh, write great

grocery lists or packing list. who will

play a little game against each other or

come up with movie recommendations for

the evening u and so on so on.

>> Are you saying we could do an access

super fan wobby app where they can

interact with us? That's possible.

>> That is my most interest for for me one

of the most exciting use cases is being

able to create sort of like a

multiplayer app where there uh kind of

tons of viewers sort of our content. So,

like you said, where people can interact

with the creators and talk to them and

stuff like that.

>> Do you guys want to know about the

dumbest article I ever wrote? But that

is actually maybe the smartest.

>> Yes,

>> of course.

>> I wrote an article for The Verge a long

time ago about this app called Yo.

>> Do you guys remember that?

>> Of course. An article about that.

>> You did?

>> Yes.

>> Wow. You're the goat.

>> I was kind of fascinated by Yo. This was

kind of

>> Yeah. Well, so was I because the idea

started with just being able to yo your

friends, but then they were talking

about adding this developer platform

where you could get yo for almost any

event, whether it is a sports score or a

website update or this or that. And that

sadly uh was just a figment of my

imagination. But now I feel like with

Agentic AI and an app platform that

allows you to create notifications for

whatever you want, I feel like that is

finally coming true. You know, like your

bank, for example, only allows you to

set up notifications for certain very

specific things like, oh, if you have a

low, you know, your risk of overdraft or

you take out more than $100 from the

ATM. But I feel like there's huge

potential there to be able to just set

up push notifications for almost

anything right?

>> Yeah. I thought, you know, OpenAI did

some cool thing with those tasks. I was

a super user of tasks in the beginning

of the year, but they took it out where

you could basically just say, run this

prompt every day or every week for me or

whatever, every month. And it could be,

you know, check in with me about what

I'm grateful for, or it could be, show

me what to do with my kids over the

weekend. And I don't think people

figured it out how to use it in uh chat.

I thought this would have such a strong

response but it didn't. But I was a

heavy user and I do believe in that with

Wabby again any app you can set up push

notifications. You can make it you know

generate content whatever content you

want for you every day. I think this is

sort of another big thing. Um and we

also made it transparent so that people

can actually change the prompt for the

notifications themselves. So for

example, if you have a a workout app,

you can create a push notifications that

um will be generated in like David

Goen's voice for tone of voice, for

example, if you want it to or however

really you want it um to be generated.

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You talked about this being the YouTube

moment for apps. That to me suggests

you're thinking about a YouTube like

business model. Are you thinking like

creator revshare on ads or payments down

the road? How are you going to monetize

all this? I know it's a question a

founder loves to get asked the week

before they launch.

>> I love those questions. I also love when

investors ask for business models. Um I

haven't been asked for one for a long

time, but I guess like 10 years ago it

was still happening here and there. Like

can you

>> is that the ultimate founder bragging

right? I don't get asked for business

models anymore.

>> Well, no. I mean like at pre-launch when

you don't even have any like still you

still figure it out and then they're

like you know create a business model

for the next two years or something with

like forecasts and um and I went to

business school so I I can do that but I

always

>> but you're like I don't know I'm going

to disrupt the app store I don't know

what to tell you trillion dollars sign

here

>> I just yeah it just feels so arbitrary

just whatever it's like I just put some

numbers in I don't know I guess

>> welcome to late stage capitalism.

Eugenia, just put some numbers in.

>> Just put some numbers in. Um I don't

know. I It's probably bad to say that

out, you know, on a podcast. I should

not say that, but it's okay.

>> I don't know how it could be meaningful

for like a preede startup.

>> Oh, just like how do you put a price on

something when it launches, right?

>> Yeah. Like how do you assess what's

going to be there? But for Wave I think

so with replica we're monetized um and

we had very strong revenue growth and

for for a while we got really wooed by

the you know number goes up. It was very

exciting because you can kind of tweak

something the product and next month

it's like you know AR or whatever it is

or revenue goes up and up and up and

it's very exciting to work on that but I

feel like when you do that sometimes you

lose track of product and sometimes you

overoptimize for revenue as with any

metric and so with Wabby we felt like

this is such a big change in uh user

behavior we want to see what happens if

we give it out for free for a

and only when we figure out when we're

really confident about the business

model we're going to slap one on. But

this time around we decided to just

focus on engagement, retention and

providing something that's really useful

for users and also seeing what apps what

many apps stick with our users cuz

ultimately you can build anything and

it's a little bit maybe too vague, too

free, too much, too wide and before we

know that I feel like coming up with any

business model would would be a little

bit premature. Yeah, that makes sense

for consumer. Uh, it's interesting to

hear like, yeah, you can make anything.

I guess the the interesting thing about

what you're doing is you're building

this app platform, many app platform,

but you're still constrained by the app

stores that you have to be distributed

by on mobile phones, right? So, you can

make anything within Apple and Google's

content rules for the stores. I would

imagine that's that's what you mean by

that. So, how do you think about that?

Like, it sounds like enforcement of that

will be tricky if this is a UGC

platform. Like, there's a lot of weird

edge cases. It's like if Apple takes

down like the ice tracking app or

whatever like they did recently. Does

that mean Wabby can't have an ice

tracking app? Like there's a lot of

interesting moderation questions for a

platform like this. I'm not sure how

much you've thought through them, but

I'd be curious to hear if you have how

you think about that in relation to the

the stores that you have to operate in.

>> If you're successful, this could take up

99% of your time. So, you should develop

a plan.

>> That is true

now. Plan now. But uh you know we have I

have a lot of experience with kind of

users safety and all sorts of regulatory

things with replica. It did take a lot

of our time there cuz and also we were

creating something new and the rules

changed all the time and continue to

change. When we started replica it was

kind of one situation people were big

companies were really scared to even

launch any generative AI chatbot. I

don't know if you remember, but for

Google and Facebook, they would never

launch anything after Microsoft Tai,

they were so scared of launching

anything that was powered by deep

learning models.

>> God, that seems like a million years ago

already, doesn't it?

>> Yeah, but they were sitting on those

transformer models for so long and they

weren't launching anything. They've had

it way before, you know, even OpenAI

had, but OpenAI had the guts to put it

out there

>> and Google just sat, you know, and

waited because they were too riskaverse.

And then of course everything changed.

So all I'm trying to say is with replica

we saw the landscape change so many

times from people just being scared of

gender chatbots all together. It was a

big no no for any big core corporation

to then kind of being okay with gender

chatbots but not being okay with um any

romance then to not being okay with any

kids using that. Then now all of a

sudden romance is great again. like it's

unclear what's you know what's really

now ch you know chedek has erotic

features it's very wild I would say and

kind of the same companies even not just

regulars but companies themselves change

their minds on what's pos what's what's

allowed what's not allowed every day and

so I think with this new

era of vip coding and vipcoded apps AI

generated apps um we're about to find

out what are the limitations but I

wouldn't be surprised guys, if those

rules change

every like all the time.

>> I know. I feel like the the elephant in

the room though, I mean, we've talked a

little bit about Apple. I remember being

at Snapchat several years ago and we

were trying to build an app platform and

there were insane sensitivities and

rules from Apple about how you can't you

can do it, but it has to be a list view.

It can't be a grid of icons. It can't

have this. It can't have that. What's

changed in that department? I mean, are

they are they going to approve you guys?

>> We're past re, you know, some parts of

review on the apps already. Hopefully,

yes, there is a mini app carve out which

we're kind of uh sitting pretty neatly

in. There are some apps that are already

gaining traction that follow a very

similar model. Uh, one of them I'm a

huge fan of. It's called Gizmo and

actually I think by people from Snap

that Snap Josh and other Snap alum. Yep.

>> Great. I love this app. Um, you know, I

really kind of just love the creativity

of it. And I think to a certain degree,

it's really following some of that. It's

very close to what we're doing at the

end of the day that these mini apps just

more on a creative side. I think the

most important thing for us is like you

cannot download these apps. They're not

monetized in any way and they're really

just think of it like workflows living

inside uh Wabby. There's another popular

platform called World Worldcoin. They

have mini apps and I'd say ours is even

kind of the most mini app of all mini

apps because all of Bobby mini apps you

always see the kind of app header. They

always sort of like integrated inside

the platform. You don't really see them

without the Wii header. It's not like

there's some app and you feel like

you're in you always know. I think

that's an important piece for Apple is

where you always know that you're inside

some app that you downloaded from the

app store in our case Wobbby. And it's

just one little kind of workflow.

>> That's risk containment for Apple. They

like that.

>> It's risk containment.

>> Yeah. You never know though. I mean,

they do seem to care like what words you

use. It's like, oh, you called it a

gizmo. All right. That's pretty cool of

me. But you called it an app. It's like,

all right, henchmen are banging down

your door with the battering ram.

>> We're trying to call them mini apps. So,

>> yeah. Sometimes they'll be like, as long

as you change your app store description

to not include the word app or whatever

word they don't like, they're like, "Oh,

cool. Thank you.

I think the workflows framing is smart

though. It's just kind of like the next

evolution of shortcuts with some new

primitives right?

>> I think so too. And I really think these

are really mini apps there. No, there's

no authorization. There's no I don't

know like social graph that's inside the

app. It's all in Wabby platform layer.

They don't function as separate apps.

They really are part of a platform and

you can't take them out in any way even

if you wanted to. there's just too much

on the platformware that's kind of

around it even compared to some um

mobile apps right now that create apps.

Uh there's some really, you know, new

coming out platforms that are really

great like VIP code app or ROR. Um I met

the founders of both of those. They're

really amazing founders, amazing people.

They're focused more on kind of vibe

coding, creating new apps. Um mostly for

developers, for people that want to

develop an app and then put it on the

app store. So that is very different

where basically on those apps you're

creating a full-fledged app with

authorization with whatever you want

even if you want to create like a social

network app whatever it's all there um

and so that feels very different that

feels truly like an app within an app

but those are developer tools so I feel

like we're much more on the kind of

Gizmo side where you're just creating

you never think of a gizmo outside of

Gizmo you don't think oh I can download

Gizmo and relaunch it on the app store

even although some of those could be

totally mini apps just like small you

know maybe could be published separately

uh but that's not about it and I feel

like that perception is a big part for

for all these platforms in the end of

the day we want to play by the platforms

rule rules and the rules are that you

can create mini apps as long as they're

truly mini apps you're not trying to

like circumvent the app store or do

something about it

>> Ellis did you have anything more on this

point

>> oh yeah how do you compete with game

center the most innovative social

platform ever produced

>> in this galaxy or otherwise

I actually quite like it. I don't know.

I found

>> You're joking.

>> I don't know.

>> Are you playing dice right now?

>> That is really You're really trying to

appease to the Apple gods right now.

>> I kind of It's just recently. I just had

like a nice experience with the games

game center where I downloaded like a

stupid puzzle app for myself and I was

playing it. I was very excited to see

that my other two friends that I haven't

heard from for a while are also were

also playing it and kind of I'm a little

and I got a little better than them. So,

I immediately texted them. So it became

a little bit of a conversation starter.

So that was my positive experience with

>> Wow, we found the three Game Center

users left uh in in the world. Um

Eugenia, I would love to hear what you

think of the state of the chatbot

market, AI companionship,

how it's evolved since you started

Replica again. you were like the OG

platform for this and somehow amazingly

replica seems to have stayed out of a

lot of the bad headlines that like

Character has gotten into and OpenAI

recently with chat GPT they just put out

some interesting data about you know the

percentage of users that they think are

having you know suicidal really

dangerous mental health conversations

with Chat GBT and it's small but it's

still at the scale they're at a lot of

people um and I just love to know what

you think of all of it gro like what

Elon's doing, like did you foresee it

all going this direction when you

started replica or does any of this

surprise you?

>> We sort of started it because I started

because I 100% believe there's going to

be we're all going to be talking to

machines and that's going to be our main

most important that's going to be the

future of personal computing. That was

the big belief in 2012 for me. I sort of

knew this will happen and I knew the

emotional piece is going to be the most

interesting because this is the new

interface

that and the only interface really or

one of the only interfaces that can have

this very strong emotional impact on

users. If you think about if I'm using

Uber there's not much I mean there's

some emotions involved in that but not

that many. If I'm talking to uh an AI

companion like replica I might fall in

love and you know and get married to it.

It's very different. I'm never going to

get married to my Uber app. So this

means completely novel type of

interaction means completely new levels

of being able to influence people being

able to influence the decisions and so

we knew from the very beginning with

with the very early prototypes that we

built in 2012 for something else of

conversational AI products we saw how

much you can influence people through

these AIs and that's why I decided to

work on it. Having said that, I was

super surprised that it actually

happened because by then I was starting

to lose patience because I was like,

well, I thought, you know, it's going to

be a couple years, three, four years,

and it was like year after year after

year, the models were still until

they weren't. Uh, and of course, now

it's blows my mind how like how far we

came cuz we could see it in the

continue. We didn't just start paying

attention now. We were we've been paying

attention and building these models and

working on that for over a decade. At

this point, I think the most surprising

thing

is how how much of a 180 most of the

companies did on safety and not on

safety. And generally I and I don't

think it's bad. I just think that for

some reason safety was kind of the

catchall phrase for everything. um

suicide prevention, dealing with um you

know homicidal or hate speech or

suicidal remarks and conversations, but

also somehow romantic relationships with

an AI were also part of that bucket,

which I don't think it should be because

it could be totally safe. Like why not?

What is the problem of like roleplaying

some um some scenario being intimate

with an AI with everything safe? There's

no problem there. But all of that was in

the safety bucket. So I think I have two

competing emotions for on one hand I'm

very happy that people are starting to

differentiate um romance with an AI

intimacy with an AI is different from

responding correctly to a suicidal uh

teenager and I think the second piece is

where I'm a little bit more cautious is

the fact that I'm not hearing from

anyone really what these companions

should do. The problem with the I

companion is that of oftentimes there's

some safety guidelines or whatever, but

there's no big goal that that they're

trying to achieve. It's sort of like,

well, people are lonely, so we'll just

give them a companion. But what are you

trying to do? Are you trying to

substitute other human relationships?

Are you trying to compliment them? Are

you trying to get these people to feel

better about themselves? And often times

there's no answer. There's no underlying

mission around that. I think that's kind

of the most dangerous. The unintended

consequences of that to me are the most

dangerous thing. You had a really good

tweet back in July where you said there

is more profound thinking going into AI

note takingaking and customer support

than the most important part. That was a

banger. I I bookmarked that one. Like

you're totally right. I mean talking to

these people building these products

like all the way up to Zuck. Like

>> it's big picture like people are lonely.

People want to interact. we can make

thing they interact with but like

there's no thinking through the

ramifications of that or what the goals

of that should be beyond like I mean

it's like an engagement metric really at

the end of the day is like they see that

people use these things and it's

probably the main way people are still

using chat bots today is for this kind

of companionship stuff

>> a lot of these things were already

covered by have already been covered by

uh sci-fi there's for example there's

the book by Stenisam Congress right that

shows a very dystopian future of VR are

um where people are so disjointed that

you know so not happy with reality where

they just live in this kind of drug

induced virtual reality. Um but the same

thing goes for for companion. Like it's

so easy to imagine the world where we're

so uh disenchanted in other people and

lost all capacity to connect to talk to

other people and we're just completely

we cannot escape those AI companions

that are just fully trying to get as

much of our attention as possible and

somehow none of that is being discussed

neither for the VR future and you know

kind of VR just didn't happen. So no one

just is discussing this really. though.

But if it did happen, I still have never

heard that conversation. So what what

will happen if we're all sitting in

those headsets. This is eating like time

with and this is it's so hard to connect

in a VR headset. Much harder than you

know even if you're just on your phone

and that's already a big burden. And

then the same goes for like we're not

even discussing what's going to happen

if we're all just stuck in those

relationships and they want as much of

our attention as we can. I think this is

the most important thing to uh to try to

figure out. So, we're almost out of

time. Just a final question or two. I

know you're a parent of some little

ones. What do you imagine their future

will look like uh with their own

software, with their own AI companion,

uh with the screen always by their side?

What is what does that future look like

to you being in both worlds?

>> Well, I'm worried of course cuz I think

I was this the last kind of generation

that didn't grow up with Instagram. Um

kind of happened when I was already out

of college. I guess or right out of

almost out of college. So, it didn't

affect me that much. Um, but that's my

worry like what's going to happen to my

kids. I have two girls. They're two and

four. Uh, they're the most important

thing in my life by like so I don't even

know like I can't no you know if you're

not a parent of course you'll never I

don't think anyone will understand what

it means. But so I think about it a lot

and that's why I do care so much about

where we're taking AI where we're taking

AI companionship. um and the emotional I

guess the emotional um effects that AI

can have on on people or these AI

relationships can have on people. And

that's why I think it's so critical to

think about whether

like with any technology, AI can be a

double-edged sword. We can build

something that will help us communicate,

help us feel good about ourselves, help

us meet other people, help us connect

better. And I can totally foresee that.

I feel like this more powerful

technology can kind of help us deal with

the the social networks and all that

stuff that kind of maybe made us and

just us being addicted to our iPhones or

whatever smartphones maybe can help us

with that.

>> Fight the fire with fire. Huh.

>> Well, I think that's the only way. And

I'm talking a lot to different

researchers in the space and a lot of

them start a conversation with me. It's

like, "Oh, no, no, no. We should just

ban everything and like people will just

go and touch grass." I'm like, but this

will never happen. We're already in sort

of like a little bit of a problem. I'm

already the whole time on my phone the

whole time. I can't get it out of my I

bring a book to my bed and I'm still on

my phone reading tweets and doing

squalling and doing whatever I'm doing.

Unfortunately, this is just too

powerful. And so, we need to build

something even more powerful to get us

off

off this train. And I don't believe that

we're just going to all of a sudden wake

up and say, "Yeah, I'm just going to go

to the gym and touch grass and meditate

20 minutes a day and everything's just

going to be amazing." Like very few

people can do that and they're already

doing that. And all of the rest of us,

we can't. I cannot. I know for a fact. I

know in the replica years you've fielded

some research about happiness. Uh I feel

like we need to do a new research study

about tech built by parents versus

non-parents. I think the non-parents

just build to-do apps. The parents try

and build something a little bit

different with a bit more of an ethos. I

mean, there's nothing more powerful than

that fear about like your children's,

you know, sadness or or loneliness at

some later date. I mean, I'm sure the uh

the dials are a little different for

that pro uh PM at Instagram with how

they tune the feeds if they have kids or

not. It's got to be right.

>> Oh, 100%. Skin in the game. I was a

journalist in my early 20s and all I

wanted to do is write the most

sensational story and I didn't give

any whatever. I didn't care whether it

was hurting someone or not. It's I'm not

proud of that. Okay, I'm not proud of

that. But I was I I remember that I was

like I just need the most popular story

and it has to be like this, you know,

I'm just going to uncover this truth and

who cares if like that's hard for the

person I'm writing it about or something

like that. And so of course now it's

different now that I have kids. It's

like you get wiser. I guess you don't

want to be. Um, and so yeah, I agree

with you 100%. I think one of the things

that really bugged me recently, I met a

few people, founders that started AI

toys companies and none of them have

kids.

And I was very much like,

>> that's kind of weird.

>> I hadn't really feeling it. They're

really wonderful people, don't get me

wrong, but I just felt uneasy because I

know I know they just want to win. And I

don't want them to win if that means,

you know, messing up with messing with

my kids. So that was

>> Well, fortunately, they're going to fail

because if you don't have kids, you

can't possibly even begin to understand

kids and how whack their brains are.

So

>> there's a fantastic post by um Tim

Orbin, you know, and wait by Y about

hanging out with the toddlers, how

they're the most exciting people at the

same time the most boring people when

like after 3 hours you just realize

you're spending a lot of time with

someone with the IQ whatever of 20.

And I and I felt only a only a dad would

write something like that. Only a dad.

Like I never even thought about it this

way.

>> Speaking of toddlers, last question.

You've been a founder for a long time

now. What What advice would you give to

a young founder starting out today?

>> Don't make an AI tour or I'll come after

you. I'm just

don't do not make an AI tour. Um I think

the main advice and I think for me that

was a problem a really big problem at

the very beginning when I started my

first company in San Francisco. You get

so fast into the kind of red race of I

just need a bigger valuation. I need a

little more revenue. I need a little bit

of those metrics. you just get in that

your why is being completely replaced by

well I just need to get to this success

in some way and that makes people so so

so so miserable because that success it

never really happens I feel for anyone

it kind of any any step there's a yet

another step to take you always feel

like a fraud somehow it's this crazy

feeling of kind of having had some and

lost some infinite thing like my

favorite David Foster Wallace said And I

feel like that makes you just so

miserable and you wake up feeling like

you don't even want to wake up uh at

some point no matter what it'll take you

to some crazy burnout. And so I think

the biggest advice and change for me was

really we live in this incredible time

where we can build super creative new

products. We can rethink what people do

with technology. We can we can build

something completely new. And I think if

you can find happiness in building and

being super creative and building

something creative with a good group of

people you like that is that should be

the motivation. Like if you can find

some why that's not related to just

getting to the next round, next

valuation, next revenue number, I think

this will make life very very happy and

a lot less stressful.

>> And if you need help with your why,

please visit meaning.comp.

That's m a n i n g company.

>> I 100% endorse this message.

>> Good.

>> In fact, I do think Alice should uh

raise his prices.

>> I tell him that all the time. I'm glad

you're saying it on the show.

>> He needs to hear that a lot more.

No, I do think that this finding that

why and what Ellis does is frankly one

of the most important things um for that

the founder can can do to themselves

like realizing what's the bigger

mission, why am I doing it and getting

really really excited by that and if you

work with Ellis, you'll get there.

>> I'm so warm and fuzzy. Thank you both.

Um well, Eugenia, so lovely to have you

>> like TVPN. You should put meaning.co go

on your hats and it

>> I could increase my thirst thirstiness

if I if I need to. Um, but uh so lovely

to have you. Good luck with the public

launch and the inevitable first neo-Nazi

wabby app that goes viral. Good luck

with moderation and all that to come.

>> Thank you so much guys and

congratulations, you know, on launching

the show. It's amazing. I've been loving

it so far.

>> Thanks to Eugenia for coming on the

show. Alex, what do you think of my uh

How many poops app idea? Is it going big

or going bust?

>> It depends on the payw wall. It depends

how much you price it at. Have you

thought through your your tiers?

>> Well, it's completely free, but I will

get access to all the email list of all

the downloaders.

>> So, you're going to know everyone who's

>> to do as I please.

>> Okay.

>> For my next supplement

>> to do business that starting on the

side.

>> There's a doodoo joke in there

somewhere. Uh, okay. Uh, we're new here,

so please follow, like, subscribe

everywhere that you get podcasts. We're

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Please follow us there. And these

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please share with a friend. We're new

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>> You can find my newsletter at

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>> and you can find me at hamburger on

Twitter and as you heard earlier in the

episode at meaning.com

>> good domain access is part of the Vox

Media podcast network. Our producer is

Shiraz Dumé.

>> We'll see you next week. Bye.

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