What The Telepathy Tapes Left Out | Pastor Joe Infranco

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[music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of Nephilim Death Squad.

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our Mother Horse Eyes episodes. I can't

believe we don't have a telepathy tapes episode.

>> That's actually a great way.

>> We need to have one of those, right?

>> Se I'm I'm very excited about this episode. Let's just get right into it.

episode. Let's just get right into it.

Uh >> this is a this is a big conversation.

>> Uh Pastor Joe and Franco with us. I

don't know if he prefers pastor, but Joe, he's with us today. I'm very

excited to talk to you and uh get into your field of expertise, man. Can you uh give us a quick introduction? What are

you about? Where are you from? What do

you do?

>> Yeah, Daniel David, great to be with you. Joe is fine. Originally from New

you. Joe is fine. Originally from New York background, I'm a pastor, but I spent a good amount of time uh in law practice. I was a litigator in New York.

practice. I was a litigator in New York.

I uh got involved in defending religious liberty cases, churches, helping nonprofits and all that. and from that got involved in some first amendment

litigation and started working with some of the national organizations.

Then 2003 I got an invitation to go work with a ministry called Alliance Defending Freedom. So I was there and

Defending Freedom. So I was there and did more of like training of attorneys and but still involved in litigation and a number of cases that ended up at the

Supreme Court. And uh I left that and

Supreme Court. And uh I left that and started pastoring in 2020. I've been an elder a long time, but this was really where I wanted to end up. It was kind of

my heart to have a, you know, a good run as a pastor. And uh that was where I got exposed to the things that are, you know, going to be the subject today.

>> Well, [clears throat] that subject today uh and and and by the way, uh hiddengift ministries.org is at the bottom there.

That's where you can find uh a lot of what happens over there at HiddenGuh Ministries. Before we get into

Ministries. Before we get into >> Yeah. Hidden Giftsministry.org

>> Yeah. Hidden Giftsministry.org uh is a it's a new nonprofit set up. We,

you know, we have our 501c3 status and all that. One of the things we became

all that. One of the things we became aware of was the great need in special needs families, almost crisis level at times, where when parents get the diagnosis, they don't know where to

turn. A lot of churches are not equipped

turn. A lot of churches are not equipped for it. So, we're trying to load up um

for it. So, we're trying to load up um free resources, get people linked and connected, work with other ministries, doing a great job even down to mundane

things like how to get government benefits because we we we think the church needs to do a better job of reaching special needs families and

individuals, maybe understanding better what it means to be an image bearer of God. And I'm

not criticizing churches. Th this is just something we

churches. Th this is just something we don't know what to do. It's hard to know what to do with people with significant autism or down syndrome who are not able

to answer you at times when you ask questions. And so we're trying to

questions. And so we're trying to reframe the church's understanding and see the incredible gifts that these young men and women are. And so every all the resources there are going to be

free. Uh you know what comes from the

free. Uh you know what comes from the decoding Cody book goes there as well.

this is it's just a vision and a mission we have.

>> So, [clears throat] um I guess to to the topic at hand, your your involvement in a um a project that over the last year really took people's awareness by storm.

Uh it became it was a controversial topic and what we're talking about is the telepathy tapes. For a time it was the number one podcast and and still I think kind of goes back and forth uh

between the number one position. um you

worked very closely with uh with Kai Dickens in the development of this project. And before we get into the role

project. And before we get into the role that you played, let's talk a little bit about how that came to to be.

>> Yeah. And I would say it's an overstatement to say I I I helped her develop. I did. And I just went on as a

develop. I did. And I just went on as a guest on two of her shows. the um the way that it happened was I started it started with four individuals in the

church. There's more here now, but four

church. There's more here now, but four individuals who began spelling. They all

have what's called non-speaking autism.

And spelling um you can find pictures of it online and video is generally done.

The spellers, the person who's who is not able to speak reliably, has a board about the size of your laptop screen with letters, including a delete key,

and they can train themselves to point to letters and spell out the answers to things. Think of Stephven Hawking in a

things. Think of Stephven Hawking in a wheelchair. He lost his power of speech.

wheelchair. He lost his power of speech.

He's communicating by pressing buttons on a device. uh the broadly it's called augmented alternative communication AAC.

Spelling is one type of it. So when they started spelling I was astonished to find out that you we'd been treating them like they were infants like they had no understanding of anything. I've

known Cody since he was a little boy, you know, he's 24 now and six foot five and always, you know, hi Cody and silly fist bumps. And when they started

fist bumps. And when they started spelling, what came out was that they're fully in there. Autism when it gets to a significant degree is not an

intellectual disability. It's a it's a

intellectual disability. It's a it's a brain motor a brain body disconnect.

There's trouble with motor function. And

so here I was talking now. I I initially I just went to meet them. I was

astonished. What What's life going to be like for someone who's been trapped in a body shown Barney and Elmo cartoons for, you know, decades. And now suddenly they're telling us, "Please stop that.

I'm in here." You know, I Cody is interested in World War II history and politics. You know, Matthew, one of my

politics. You know, Matthew, one of my spellers, loves architecture. My

favorite is Elsa, who's like my granddaughter. I'm so fond of her. and

granddaughter. I'm so fond of her. and

you know she went from kid cartoons to advanced math and science courses and telling me she's memorized the periodic table in chemistry and wants to study the brain. So that's how it started.

the brain. So that's how it started.

They were in there and this to me was astonishing just on a pastoral and human level where it went from astonishing to completely mind-blowing was when all of them

started telling me they're able to communicate in thought that they see angels that they see demons. some of

them have seen heaven and then all these details started coming and that was when I said oh my goodness what's going on here.

>> So [clears throat and cough] this um this aspect of of seeing angels seeing demons seeing heaven um not

something that was spoken about too much in the series. I believe there was one instance you talk about it pretty often.

And it was a um >> they were uh I mean when it where it was touched on in the series was uh from from like a Hindu perspective there was the Indian woman and her son and they

were talking about very briefly that like he and he he would mention that he encountered lowercase G gods and his mother kind of wisely steered him away from that but it was it was just a

footnote in uh the telepathy tapes which I mean it's such a it's such a great podcast but for us We're looking at it through a Christian lens, through a

spiritual lens, and we're like, there's so much more meat on the bone here that it seemed like we're just focused on the

ability of the telepathy, which I I don't know, maybe I'm a weirdo, but when I when I heard it, I go, that makes a lot of sense that there is a human being in there and they're just having trouble

communicating >> and they are coherent, >> right? [snorts] And and we shouldn't be

>> right? [snorts] And and we shouldn't be surprised by this. You know, we've had hints of it all along. You know, there's a professor at Colorado State, I believe. I forget the university now,

believe. I forget the university now, Temple Grandon, who has autism and has pioneered, you know, methods of cattle.

Well, people maybe remember the movie um I'm sorry, I should have finished that sentence. She's pioneered humane

sentence. She's pioneered humane treatment of cattle that's going to be slaughtered and other agricultural type of issues.

People may remember the movie Rainman with Dustin Hoffman.

>> Sure.

>> Based on a real life character.

Sometimes people with autism have prodigious memory or or or savant syndrome type mathematical skills. I've

seen some you could say what's 1412* 618 and you get an answer like that. Dustin

Hoffman's character looked at a phone book and memorized it, saw a server in a restaurant, read her name, and told her her address and phone number. That's

real life stuff. The brain organizes a certain way. So, autism at some point,

certain way. So, autism at some point, we call it that. It's it's a different kind of functioning of the brain. Some

of the smartest people I've met are somewhat in the spectrum, and it's always called autism spectrum disorder.

Mhm.

>> You can be in the high-end, high functioning, married, have a family, have extraordinary skills, but have great difficulty with emotions, or just

not be able to comprehend certain things. I've met some who can't

things. I've met some who can't comprehend humor. Not all. I'm, you

comprehend humor. Not all. I'm, you

know, I'm I'm generalizing right now, but we have had hints that the person was in there, and we're coming to understand a little better what that means.

Let's um let's I mean we have our own suspicions about the nature of let's say telepathy in particular and I don't want to go into the details too much because I I I think it's really important to

share some of your experiences and these things that were omitted from the final product which in any sort of documentary that you're going to do you're going to have quite a bit of footage um and it's

not all going to make the cut and so in that way it's understandable. It is

interesting to me the nature of the cut in this particular instance. But um

before we go on to that, >> well, they're telling a certain story and I I get it. Um

>> that story just doesn't involve what uh I what we think would be the the more important parts of the subject. But

yeah, what what was left out >> before we go there? I do want to say on the topic of um of telepathy displaying itself in individuals who experience

autism on on whatever end of the spectrum. Um are you aware of let's say

spectrum. Um are you aware of let's say um intelligence operations where they have induced different states and individuals by creating first and

foremost a state of disassociation. So,

what I'm hinting at here is uh in particular the CIA's operations when it came to MK Ultra or Project Monarch. Um

these are files that were released through the Freedom of Information Act, supposedly no longer in operation, and you could speculate as to whether or not that's that's a fact, but the center of

their research had to do with creating a a state of disassociation in the patient or in the the subject by way of trauma.

And what happens is when uh when an individual disassociates disassociates a number of things become achievable. For

example, a secondary programmable personality might emerge. Um these are all things that are you know out there and they exist in these released files

now. Um but some of the more speculative

now. Um but some of the more speculative things are the emergence of psychic abilities or you know telepathy let's say. Um, does it strike you as

say. Um, does it strike you as significant that these individuals are in a state of disassociation from their physical body and then are displaying these very same attributes that it seems

the CIA uh was fascinated in?

>> Yeah, it doesn't surprise me in the least. I I think that to some extent

least. I I think that to some extent it's a much more natural phenomenon than we realize. When government shrouds it,

we realize. When government shrouds it, it makes it mysterious. But you go back to the founders of modern psychology, you know, Sigman Freud and Carl Gustaf Young. Young wrote in his

Young. Young wrote in his synchronicities about exactly these kinds of things believed and had seen extra sensory perception. It just didn't

take off. Freud's model took off because

take off. Freud's model took off because people would rather talk about sex than, you know, weirdness. So the uh but I mean often I'm in a room with people and

you know I'm speaking and I'll just ask how many of you have experienced something unusual. The phone rings, you

something unusual. The phone rings, you think of Aunt Sally whom you haven't spoken to in a year and it's Aunt Sally.

Every hand goes up without fail because we've all experienced these kinds of things. They're just not normative. So

things. They're just not normative. So

what happens is the thing that the brain can't process or classify easily gets kind of pushed aside and so it remains sort of in the weird you know area and

um yet there are some people who have these now it could be that the mechanism of how that works is related to spiritual gifts. I'm I I believe all

spiritual gifts. I'm I I believe all that the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12 are still absolutely in operation. I've had it happen many times. I'm talking with

someone or praying with someone and I understand a particular very specific thing happening in their life and I'll share it and they'll go, "Oh my goodness, how did you possibly know

that?" I think there are just those

that?" I think there are just those times now whether whe perhaps the Holy Spirit is working through the background

setup that God used for that because other people experience it. It's again,

it's not uncommon. We get we react a little more freaked out to it here because we're the product of a materialist society. Kai Dickens had

materialist society. Kai Dickens had this right. I've been in many parts of

this right. I've been in many parts of the world where they're much more conscious and aware of spirits and this kind of thing doesn't strike them strange in the least. You know, I was in

a Rotary scholarship in India and when I was young and spent an extended time there, I remember the end of a board meeting of the third largest bank in India. The chairman

saying, "Okay, your next stop is the local witch doctor who was well known and told the future and I had already become a Christian. I didn't I just watched it and all that." But imagine

being at Chase Manhattan Bank and you know the chairman says, "Okay, we're done here. It's time for you to visit

done here. It's time for you to visit the psychic." It's not a feature of our

the psychic." It's not a feature of our culture or our psyche or eth our ethos.

So, um, yet it it I think it's common there. It's not it's perhaps not as

there. It's not it's perhaps not as strange as we think. What's hard for us, we don't know how to process and classify it.

>> This is uh so part of the I guess the alarms that went off with the telepathy tapes for me was the introduction of this phenomenon and the not just the normalization but the popularization of

it. It beat Joe Rogan. So now that's

it. It beat Joe Rogan. So now that's just telling me if if it if the numbers are organic, which I think they are, it's telling me that people are looking

for and ready to hear this. And since

2020, there has been a a huge spiritual shift. Like if you were an atheist

shift. Like if you were an atheist before, you're on one side or the other at this point. You know that there is >> Yeah, I totally totally agree. Yeah.

Tucker Carlson had mentioned it a couple years ago when he he started talking about the Nephilim as well like when we started this show and he had brought up that idea of we we've been in a spiritual world but the blanket's been

pulled over our our eyes >> and now it's kind of getting torn back down and we're going to have to deal with that. So, this was a big indicator

with that. So, this was a big indicator for me that the people are I I don't know if they're ready, but they are looking. They're looking at it now and

looking. They're looking at it now and they're curious again. And whatever

these things are that are working behind the scenes, like you you said, these these folks are seeing angels and demons and Jesus at some point.

>> They see they see them fight. They see

what it's like when they battle. And I

describe that in some of the dialogues in the book, the kind of weapons that they use and how Jesus dispatches angels when we pray. They see it all.

>> Can we talk about that? Because like we just we just wrapped up our study of uh Daniel. So like Daniel 11, right? Or

Daniel. So like Daniel 11, right? Or

Daniel 10.

>> Uh yeah, I think it was Daniel 10.

You're talking about the angel.

>> The prince of Persia. He's he's caught up there and he's like, I got help.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Three weeks. Like what

happened?

>> These guys must have saw that. That's

crazy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. you know the the and the word demon is tricky. The Greek dimone or there's a dominion of form donium um actually just means spirit. You'll find

places in older Greek writings where it refers to a deity not necessarily good or bad. Socrates had his don his spirit

or bad. Socrates had his don his spirit guide you know who he said was a conscience and all that. In the New Testament they're always bad when you see the word used. So we've just now

come to use demon as a spirit in rebellion against God. But you know, Paul says in Ephesians 6, our wrestling is not against flesh and blood. You guys

likely hit that. Principalities, powers.

And he goes on to give classifications.

And if you study the Greek in those, it suggests there's hierarchies. Some of

them, some of the titles suggest almost like a jurisdictional control of an area.

>> And so you get glimpses of that most notably in Daniel when Gabriel says, "I was sent to you three weeks ago. whom

the prince of Persia withstood me and Michael, your angel, came and fought so I could get through. Or even, you know, the very odd reference in Jude where Michael the archangel is disputing with

Satan over the body of Moses.

>> It's crazy.

>> Like, what the heck was that about? You

know, I have some theories on it, but not I won't go into them here. So, yeah,

that's there. And then there seems to be a great hierarchy. Maybe you guys have seen some of Michael Heiser's stuff, you know, the unseen realm and angels and

all that. The the only thing I feel sure

all that. The the only thing I feel sure of is it's much more complex than we know. We oversimplify. Angels good,

know. We oversimplify. Angels good,

demons bad. You know, you you there I mean there are principalities. I

encountered one in India. If I tell a quick story, >> please.

>> They they they took us to something called a devil worship temple.

>> And I thought, oh, all right. you know,

I'll go along. I'm I'll see store up the information. And um you know what you

information. And um you know what you walked in, there were these like carved figures with fangs and bloody teeth and there were the the I don't know what to

call them. They call themselves priests

call them. They call themselves priests walking around and um you know I talked to a few of them. I said, "Can I ask you

a question?" Sure. If you know these are

a question?" Sure. If you know these are demons, why would you worship them? And

one said to me, "That's a good question.

It's because they trouble people and we try to pacify them and we feel like if we satisfy them, they'll leave us alone." I lived in New York at the time

alone." I lived in New York at the time and I said, "Yeah, we have that back in New York, too. We call it paying protection to the mob, >> but I I don't think they got the cultural reference." And I asked one of

cultural reference." And I asked one of them, "Is there a head demon here or something?" And they said, "Yeah." And

something?" And they said, "Yeah." And

they pointed to a location, and I saw it. It was like a little concrete cinder block structure, maybe four or five feet high, maybe four or

five feet square. The middle was hollow and there were little things inside. I

couldn't quite make out flowers, little trinkets and things. And I was new Christian at that point and I was praying and walking toward it. And as I was doing that, I was just going to get

right up and look in like I was just curious. And as I was walking, you know,

curious. And as I was walking, you know, I' I've been a believer since 1978.

I never had anything like this before or after, guys. It was like I walked into

after, guys. It was like I walked into an ice cold wall of something that was black and so profoundly hateful. It It

actually froze me in my tracks. I've

never encountered anything like that in my life. I had been a seek a seeker, a

my life. I had been a seek a seeker, a searcher before coming to Christ. that I

had studied Hinduism somewhat and boot and gone to a Buddhist temple for over a year and read up on the eight-fold path of the vinyl and never anything like

this. It it froze me and I I just heard

this. It it froze me and I I just heard like almost audibly I've never heard an audible voice but so loud on the inside, "Back up and get away. You don't know

what you're doing here." And I backed away from it like like you would from a dog, a rabid dog. I kept my eyes on it like backing up and all. And I think it

took years and reading and more under understanding to know that was a kind of a um that that spirit had a

jurisdiction. It was welcome there. uh

jurisdiction. It was welcome there. uh

very different from let's say the spirits who try to harass Christians and you know um who are more intrigued with the flesh and appetites and promoting

hatred or bitterness or you know you know kind of se sexual obsessions or things like that that's different. We do

have power and authority over those, you know, especially when a person repents and and all, but there's a class of spirits that seems more interested in

having a body. You know, you recall when uh you know, there was the the demon-possessed man and the gatherines and Jesus said, "What's your name?" Leia

were many. Uh they pleaded with Jesus.

They pleaded to go to not be sent back to the pit, the aboose, the abyss before their time, but to go into a herd of pigs. They they would rather have had

pigs. They they would rather have had embodiment in pigs than to be disembodied.

And you know, Jesus gave them that permission. And that was, you know, the

permission. And that was, you know, the first case in the Bible, some would say of deed ham. But I would never [laughter] I would never say that, but I've heard other people say it.

>> We were we were talking with Karen Wilkinson yesterday. She's like a an

Wilkinson yesterday. She's like a an abductee survivor. And we mentioned that

abductee survivor. And we mentioned that story and found it very interesting that the first thing the pigs do is cuz I mean they they don't want to be disembodied. They want to be in flesh.

disembodied. They want to be in flesh.

But the first thing they do is is throw themselves in the water. So they die there and I'm like what's what's going on with the water that these spirits will if they maybe if they're released

there they can spread a little bit more readily and then that gets into >> I was really weird. They might have just miscalculated, you know, the pig brain freaked [laughter] out.

>> It's not a big one >> and all that. But I mean, you find you Jesus said, um, when an unclean spirit departs from a man, it goes through. The

Greek is kind of like dry places, like deserts. It's it's upset. It doesn't

deserts. It's it's upset. It doesn't

like that. And he said it returns and if it finds the house swept clean, >> the person is not, you know, the the room hasn't been led out to the Holy

Spirit, then it'll return and bring, you know, seven worse in itself. So yeah,

there there's that level of these things, too. You It takes time and

things, too. You It takes time and discernment and study to know what you're dealing with and how you handle those situations.

>> One of these uh sorry to interrupt, we're doing a Bible study with our friend Matt and we're going through the book of Jude. We have only gotten like seven uh scriptures through uh because

it pertains like each scripture you can pull up like 15 more that uh have reference and I forget exactly where in the Bible but uh I think it's uh in in one of the first four books. I I don't

remember though. Um it's it basically

remember though. Um it's it basically makes a mention of God uh helping other tribes slay giants. Like God helped them to kill these giants. They're not

Israel. It's not the Jews. it's somebody

else and then they take that land from the giants. I I wish Matt was here

the giants. I I wish Matt was here because he would uh give us the exact scripture. And then that leads to

scripture. And then that leads to interesting thoughts because now we're talking about principalities and dominions. It's like, well, did that

dominions. It's like, well, did that tribe then worship God? Is there

historical record of them, you know, uh obeying the law or following it? Not

really. So he just like kind of he's like, "Yeah, you take those guys out over there and then maybe now your principality is in control here or I I don't know how it works, but it does

seem like that like you can't walk into someone else's territory because that those lands have been granted to whatever to do whatever with >> you. You find that the idea of the local

>> you. You find that the idea of the local god little G associated with the land.

There's a time that there's you Israel's in a battle and defeats, you know, the tribe and and u whoever they're fighting

and people in that tribe say, "Well, that's because their god is the god of the hills. You know, we have to fight

the hills. You know, we have to fight them in the plains instead." And then they fight in the planes and they lose again because the awareness has come that Yahweh is the one true God that

they've been worshiping, you know, the inferior Elohim, the, you know, these little tribal the the tribes are following a particular spirit. So yeah,

there's a lot of interesting stuff in that.

There's a you had mentioned before um your time in India and and you know with with this entity that you experience his principality and I find that interesting. There's an individual uh

interesting. There's an individual uh his name is Rupert Sheldrake. He's a PhD in biology. He's also an author. Um and

in biology. He's also an author. Um and

he's you know he goes around and gives these talks and he has some very fascinating information. Not a Christian

fascinating information. Not a Christian uh but still has some insight. I just,

you know, the sort of the nature of things I think is where he he really deviates. But, um, he has some really

deviates. But, um, he has some really incredible work on the psychic phenomenon, telepathy, things of that nature. One of his studies in particular

nature. One of his studies in particular was, uh, the psychic connection between individuals and their pets. Um, he does studies on things like you had mentioned before, this idea of like thinking of someone and then suddenly they call,

which we've all experienced. Um, I think the study he might be most famous for is when you are coming home, if there's cameras in your house and you have a pet, even if you switch up the variable

of when you are on your way home, meaning, you know, a dog might get used to you being home every day from the office at 5:30, switch that variable up and still 15 minutes or so before you

arrive, your pet will get up. It'll get

antsy. It'll go to the to the to the window. It'll climb on the couch. It'll

window. It'll climb on the couch. It'll

destroy your blinds. Um, and so, you know, there he's displaying this psychic phenomenon, but one of the things that I think is interesting is is the conclusions that he draws.

This psychic phenomenon is very easy for the new age to to grab on to. And an

element that keeps showing itself surrounding specifically autism and then the telepathy tapes becomes part of the conversation is that and it's not a hard

line but it's one that seems to be pushed across the table us to us to consider now and again is that this is somehow the next stage in >> ascension. Well, ascension human

>> ascension. Well, ascension human development at the very least and and that being this sort of savant aspect where sure you may be emotionally

stunted but you are uh hyperdeveloped in in a particular you know craft or or such and um and then of course also you toss in there the telepathy aspect.

>> Are your I'm sorry to interrupt but are your kids uh the initial four and the ones you're dealing with now are they coming back with the same message as well? Yeah, I mean it's it's it's more

well? Yeah, I mean it's it's it's more than double just at my church, but now I I'm in touch with hundreds of them. They

send me books. I do Zoom calls with them. Uh I mean I I get calls, letters,

them. Uh I mean I I get calls, letters, emails virtually every week. If if

people have something like this, they want to talk about it. I try to answer everyone. They can always reach out on

everyone. They can always reach out on Instagram, you know, the the you know, it's at Pastor Joe and Franco. They

could email me at my church, Highlands Church. It would be Jay in Franco. J I N

Church. It would be Jay in Franco. J I N F R A N C O at highlandsurch.org and um you know I'll try to speak with you or meet or whatever. So yeah th this

is everywhere and you're hit they have the kind of questions you're asking and if I can just expand I think you're hitting on something really important.

You know, David, they we have to remember Satan can create things. Sort

of the evil by its nature takes something that God's created for good and perverts it. It's the misuse of something. You know, astrology is a, you

something. You know, astrology is a, you know, clearly given over to, you know, sort of demonic influence. Yeah. Yet,

you know, the heavens declare the glory of God. The the magi knew the season,

of God. The the magi knew the season, studying the stars. But what what God puts in for some purpose for good measure just gets taken over and

hijacked. And you find many

hijacked. And you find many subjects even many things in life like that. You know, sexual relations are a

that. You know, sexual relations are a gift from God for intimacy, procreation.

God designed it for one man and one woman and a lifelong faithful commitment. Um you know the the abuse of

commitment. Um you know the the abuse of it becomes lust. You personify a person.

you end up with sexual trafficking all kinds of victim because they you know that that naturally declines them to things. So it's the abuse of it the God

things. So it's the abuse of it the God gives us um you know gave us spiritual gifts and um and also I think part of our mind

is just able to function at times in that realm where we know something.

thing. I had a Zoom call with a woman last night and and I could just tell some things and she was saying, "How did you know you're this or that?" And and

um and and so there's a I think telepathy gets into that. And I dislike the word when when I was first invited on. I

spoke with Kai for hours. I was

reluctant at first because I to me the word carries some baggage and I prayed and I felt like no, I should go on. And

I'll give the Christian perspective because virtually all the spellers who I've met who see these things are talking about Jesus. And it's not just anticipating a question. It's not just,

oh, their parents dragged them to church. They heard about angels and now

church. They heard about angels and now they're projecting it. I heard from non-Christian families or from laps Christians. You know, the parents said,

Christians. You know, the parents said, you know, we used to be whatever Methodists and we haven't been to church in a decade. and my daughter is talking about angels and this and that and

seeing these things that got us back to church. So you you you you can see

church. So you you you you can see things like that as well. So when I went on to speak to Kai, I I I wanted to supply the spiritual dimension. She had

Diane Powell who's a very respected psychiatrist and I got to know Diane a little bit. Diane taught at Harvard and

little bit. Diane taught at Harvard and John's Hopkins I believe and she wanted to talk about the more serious science.

I think she felt like that got lost in the the she called it the woo woo of telepathy. I felt a little bit the same

telepathy. I felt a little bit the same way that I wanted to talk about the spiritual part of it. And Kai and this is not a criticism. Kai is a brilliant

filmmaker. I like her, you know. Um it's

filmmaker. I like her, you know. Um it's

just not that the story she wants to tell. So she's finding the pieces that

tell. So she's finding the pieces that fit with her narrative. and um in particular she was interested in my discussing studies because spelling was

initially discredited in some forms. There was an organization called ASHA that wrote criticisms of it. There were

about 40 negative studies going back to the '9s because of the way that they did some things.

The methods have are dramatically improved. There's more than a hundred

improved. There's more than a hundred positive studies now after methodologies were changed. they come University of

were changed. they come University of Virginia's department of psychiatry is a leader and they keep you know writing about how how uh these things now

they're they're clearly in there and communicating you're getting studies like that at University of Syracuse Boston University even Cambridge and

England Vanderbilt in fact um University of California Berkeley that bastion of conservativism is admitting um spellers

with non-speaking autism. This is one book somebody sent me. It's got about 60 or so accounts of of people who are first, you know, attenders in this

college or that college. So, Kai was intrigued by that, the fact that I did a deep dive into the research that spelling is real that we keep finding it's legitimate because the old

complaints just keep getting recycled and they're not. And it's odd that that's happening. While spellers are

that's happening. While spellers are being with autism are being admitted to universities, the thing gets repeated often enough. The other thing is there's

often enough. The other thing is there's old modalities as there's funding behind old types of treatment including heavy use of pharmaceuticals. Whenever you

start getting into something that's goring somebody's economic ox, they don't like that, you know. So, but

spelling is unquestionably real. There's

more and more studies coming. We're

finding the person. I've seen hundreds of these now and it's clearly the person. If you're out there and you

person. If you're out there and you said, "Oh, I heard somewhere about this." I I explain this in detail in the

this." I I explain this in detail in the book and even cite a number of the studies because that it's it's just not true any longer that this should be discounted that don't get caught up on

that old untruth. Kai was interested in that. The spiritual content got cut out.

that. The spiritual content got cut out.

It's so interesting because they run they run hand in hand. Um,

[clears throat] one of the things that fascinated me I we're at the 35 minute mark. That's kind of what I would say.

mark. That's kind of what I would say.

>> Okay. The people the people can get a couple more minutes and then we'll >> we we usually >> I can give you I can give you guys as long as you like. I have no limit.

>> Oh.

>> Oh no. It's just for the the content of the We usually take the episode down, edit it, so that way it's friendly for YouTube.

>> We don't get flagged on YouTube. Yeah.

Um, but anyway, I I'll just I'll just ask uh the idea behind like uh spelling when she was initially talking about it, the science was saying, well, it's not legitimate because sometimes a parent

will put a hand on the child or even just a finger on the head and that's to help the child like locate their body.

And I >> Right. Right. You're well informed. That

>> Right. Right. You're well informed. That

was a type of facilitated communication.

They would apply a hand to the arm usually. Um, but they would do it

usually. Um, but they would do it counter pressure because it's known people with, you know, significant levels of autism lose the feeling of

their limbs. And so doing that was just

their limbs. And so doing that was just to help the arm get moving.

>> Um, but then, you know, once the arm is moving, if you've got a hand on it, that opens you up to the criticism that your the hand is guiding the arm. So the

newer forms of spelling, there's absolutely no touch. It's very strict protocols. Takes longer for them to get

protocols. Takes longer for them to get going, but it's very strict, you know, no touch. Uh they only ask non-leading

no touch. Uh they only ask non-leading questions. You can't ask questions that

questions. You can't ask questions that suggest the answer. Or one other old criticism was, well, we're not able to duplicate it. You you you spell with the

duplicate it. You you you spell with the person when and when we put Harry in and Harry tries, it doesn't work. And this

to me misses by a mile. This is the analogy I came up with to explain that the spellers have a bond with the person they're spelling with there's trauma.

There's, you know, they it takes time for them to develop a relationship. They

they have a sense of who loves them and cares about them. So imagine, you know, a woman who's had severe severe trauma and she finds a therapist and she

finally is able to relate and they open up and she trusts her and there's a, you know, a good therapeutical relationship going on and, you know, some guy comes along and says, "Well, I want to see if

this is real. You know, you get out, I'm going to ask you questions. How do you feel?" All right. And it doesn't work.

feel?" All right. And it doesn't work.

Well, for that person to say, "Well, see, that proves there's nothing to therapy." Well, it'd be absurd. The

therapy." Well, it'd be absurd. The

relationship between the patient and the therapist in that illustration, something like the speller and the spelling facilitator, there's there's a

very much a personal, you know, element.

Cody knows Missy since he's a little boy. He knows how dearly she loves him

boy. He knows how dearly she loves him and and vice versa. And, you know, so that's an aspect of it. So, those

criticisms are easily answered. Some of

them, in fact, have been just fully disproved. Oh, you're moving the board

disproved. Oh, you're moving the board to the finger. That's how they're spelling. University of Virginia said,

spelling. University of Virginia said, "Okay, let's do a study. We'll track eye movement and hand movement. What comes

first, the eye or the hand?" And they showed conclusively the eye goes to the letter first and then the finger follows the eye. And they said, "This is clear.

the eye. And they said, "This is clear.

There's activity of the brain wanting that letter." So all these things have

that letter." So all these things have been answered. the old complaints from

been answered. the old complaints from the 90s just get recycled often enough that people don't you know people repeat them and that was why I took space in

the book I had to including an appendix to site some of the studies to show don't be thrown off by those things and I also took a more space than I would

have liked examining it like a lawyer cross-examining for credibility finding out there's a strong trend between uh you know non on speaking autism in truthfulness. There are some

studies even go as far as saying they're incapable of lying because they lack the so subtle social cues. I don't think that's true. It seems though that they

that's true. It seems though that they are they tend to be more honest than usual people um the average person and

uh that's very important for them to that you know who they are. They've been

stuck in there for ages. They don't even have motives to lie. Like for money, they if they have money for them, it's a special needs trust. It doesn't connect for them. Attention. Like a lot of

for them. Attention. Like a lot of people might go on YouTube and talk about visions and run up the numbers and monetize it. People with that degree of

monetize it. People with that degree of autism, it's characterized often by repetitive motions, difficulty making eye contact, a desire for, you know,

less stimulation. They don't want noise.

less stimulation. They don't want noise.

I went into some of their Reddit groups and followed the dialogue. Some who are able to type, they dislike attention.

They like calm, repetition, quiet. Uh

I've seen some of them say in those groups, when people pay attention to me, it reminds me of the trauma when I was a kid. I was made fun of. You go right

kid. I was made fun of. You go right through the reasons somebody would lie and none of them line up. So it's this amazingly

on it's amazingly uh developing picture of their the likelihood that they're being truthful and then when you find out there are I mean I've had days four of them come in and they don't speak

they can't they don't own phones they don't text you know it's countless times they come in there are four angels in the room today every one of them will say it they know what people are

thinking they know what people are saying they report what's happening in the spirit world, they've seen things before they happen. There's too many stories to recount. So, I just put the I

put the actual dialogues in so people can read and see this is how they described it. And some of them talk like

described it. And some of them talk like [laughter] Old Testament prophets. Some

of them have very very deep ways of expressing things like my friends Josiah and Houston. They're not in the church

and Houston. They're not in the church here. You know, I put a chapter in

here. You know, I put a chapter in because of the incredible things they see and understand. and they'll tell us that they're meant to be heralds, that God's made them heralds of something

he's doing in the world.

>> See, it's one more thing. I I just want to say it's very unfair that there's like we have to do a double blind study on these autistic children. It's like

[snorts] >> our our research >> has shown us that they've been looking at this since at least the 50s. I mean,

and and the crazy part is that this person is mentioned on the telepathy tapes, but only in passing. and and uh this guy Andrea Puhares they go oh well he developed a patent that uh is a

dental tooth implant and uh Lucille Ball kind of suffered from this thing. You

remember this part where she >> Yeah. She gets a radio signal. Yeah.

>> Yeah. She gets a radio signal. Yeah.

Yeah. Fun story.

>> Yeah. I mean but this guy's not so fun.

This guy's a government spook. Um and

and he's been around for a while and basically his studies are back engineering telepathy. He's written

engineering telepathy. He's written books about it. He's also written books about mushrooms. So he's dealing in the psychedelic realm as well. They were on to this since the 50s and they're asking questions in the 90s, 40 years later,

that just exist to trip you up and trip up these these kids that are going through this thing. They figured this out a while ago. They figured out the disassociative state. This is what I was

disassociative state. This is what I was saying with like the arm on the on the on the hand or the the shoulder of the child. It's to help them to like I guess

child. It's to help them to like I guess vibrate. I mean

vibrate. I mean >> to almost like locate their body.

>> Exactly. That's the way that many of them describe it. They say they feel like uh their soul is vibrating here in their physical body and when they're touched they're able to locate where they are here in the world. Yeah. So,

and this is all fascinating and I think these things tie in. Would you guys be okay if I make a little bit of a left turn here?

>> Go for it.

>> Yeah. I I think the thing we don't want to miss is that they are all talking about God. They all the ones I know I've

about God. They all the ones I know I've I've been told to be careful not to say they all the all the ones I've met they talk about Jesus even some who are not

Christian and and non-Christians with this is another interesting subject but I want to say I've noticed a lot of overlap between what they report and

near-death experiences and even some overlap with the accounts of Christian pardon me of Muslims who see Jesus in dreams and visions. It's

been recounted in a number of books. The

guy who wrote um a wind in the house of Islam as a PhD from University of Chicago on a research, it's there. And

what fascinates me now is this this kind of overlapping of God speaking almost like speaking to the world through unlikely

uh vehicles, >> right? And um and again you know the um

>> right? And um and again you know the um you see this continually in what what you know the paradoxical ways of God that [clears throat] you know God's

powers made perfect in weakness. You

know Paul says 1 Corinthians 12 you know 8. He asked three times for thorn in the

8. He asked three times for thorn in the flesh to be removed. And God's answer was my grace is sufficient for you. My

power is made perfect in weakness. Mhm.

>> You know, and Paul says, "Oh, I'd rather I'd rather boast about my weakness." So

the, you know, the power of God will boast of me. You get so many hints, you know, 2 Corinthians 4, we hold this treasure in jars of clay. And you know,

1 Corinthians, uh, chapter 1, uh, you like verse 27, u, God's chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. Again, we keep getting these

the wise. Again, we keep getting these hints of that. And even where you know there's a time where Jesus rejoiced in the scripture the Greek is kind of like

he greatly exalted like you could just picture him smiling and laughing. Um I'm

curious do you remember the reference where he that it says that of him what he was rejoicing and exalting about.

Most people don't. Uh it said in that hour he rejoiced greatly in the spirit and he said I thank you father that you've concealed these things from those

who are wise in their own minds uh and you've revealed it to those who are babes or those I would say I would add who become like children. So here's God taking

>> it's like Matthew 24 right like you have to be like a child to enter into heaven this idea.

>> Yeah. Unless you become his children you won't enter the kingdom of heaven. And

now we have a relationship with them. A

lot of times when I'm, you know, signing books for people now, you get good. And

by the way, if people want the book, I sorry for saying this, they could go on the website. If they order it, if they

the website. If they order it, if they order it there, we just ask for a donation, whatever you can afford. Um,

I'll I sign all those that go out and then every penny of it goes, you know, to the ministry to help. Um, you know, we we want to have a special focus on on

autism. And, you know, I I fond of

autism. And, you know, I I fond of quoting Matthew 25:40. What you've done for the least of these, you've done for

me. So, um, you know, I there there's

me. So, um, you know, I there there's God is is doing something here. It's

emerging. Many of them have said to me, Joe, our story was meant to get out.

Jesus has told me all my life, my story is going to come out. I'm going to glorify him through my autism. Which

raises all kinds of other questions like what why aren't they getting healed instead of glorifying God and autism and and they talk to Jesus? They they do I I

you know they have a lot to say about Jesus.

>> Well, I have other questions as well like what afflicted them. Um why why so many I mean these are questions to God or perhaps the government but why so

many in this day and age so many children suffering I mean like the percentage is going up and I know that there's discrepancies between uh how we diagnose it but it I mean I I forgot the

numbers but it's like thousand% or something like that that RFK Jr. saying >> it's right. It's a huge increase. We we

are diagnosing it more effectively. Some

friends sent me an academic article about part of the problem is this is going to sound weird. It's almost

becoming trendy. People feel like >> social contagion.

>> Yeah. People say I have a little autism and they're functioning fine and they speak and all of that, but they feel like if they have just a touch, it makes them like Elon Musk. They can be brilliant.

>> See, and that's what I was talking about before, Joe, with that subversive kind of little message that gets slid across the table. it goes, hey, this is the

the table. it goes, hey, this is the next step in human development. This is

the next. And there's like some sort of glorification of that when to be perfectly honest, from where I'm sitting, these look like injured children. I don't think that anybody

children. I don't think that anybody who's actually experienced this would say that this is the next step in development and this is something that you should boast about or blame.

>> Yeah, they struggle. I mean, they, you know, many of them said to me, "My my mind and my body are at war." They'll

they'll have these fr out of frustration, you know, tantrums. They can't control their body. They thrash on the floor and afterward if they're able to spell about it, they'll say, "Um, you

you don't understand what it's like. My

brain can't get my body to do what what it wants." I was speaking at a

it wants." I was speaking at a conference in Orlando and doing a breakout session and I had a few spellers there and we did backtoback breakout sessions and one of the

spellers Elsa came up and spelled for them. The people were just spellbound

them. The people were just spellbound and the second young man who's had a lot of trauma in his life. He was adopted from a Bulgarian orphanage. He's blind,

loves his family. um you know he has food issues from eating paint chips when he was there was no food in the orphanage and all that. He said spells profound things and he started trying to

spell and he lost control of his body.

He was thrashing on the floor and I just said to the you know the people in the room this is the the life his parents have. This is where we want to meet them

have. This is where we want to meet them and love them because this kind of thing can happen any time. It's not something to but the interesting thing is that

every one of them talks about how much Jesus loves them.

>> I've maybe now read it could be about a hundred accounts from people who describe it. Uh I've met them on Zoom

describe it. Uh I've met them on Zoom calls and you know all kinds of met in person now and I've asked many of them

what does Jesus look like? The first

answer I always get from them is some variation of this. He looks like love.

He is the love of God for us. He is

God's love on display. You and I, if we were asked to describe someone, we'll give a superficial answer, right? 5'8,

has a beard, whatever. They go right to the essence of who he is. They're all

riveted by his eyes. They say his eyes have light. him when they say when you

have light. him when they say when you see his eyes, you're the only person in existence. His attention is totally

existence. His attention is totally focused on you. His love is so deep and profound. There's no condemnation.

profound. There's no condemnation.

There's this deep acceptance to seeing your life. Now, again, I've had people

your life. Now, again, I've had people write and say, "Well, why if they're seeing Jesus, why aren't they getting healed?"

healed?" I as I can't answer that but they a number of them have said that God wants

me to glorify him through my autism and to be a faithful witness. So I mean you all can wrestle with you know the theology of that. It's interesting they said some of them sent me books. This

was a book I spelled with Jeff. It was

his privately published lights in the darkness. It's about maybe 30 accounts

darkness. It's about maybe 30 accounts or so.

And and these are all people with non-speaking autism. Story after story.

non-speaking autism. Story after story.

Just uh here this is Angelo.

Jesus was a friend to me when I had no friends. He shine the light of freedom

friends. He shine the light of freedom in my life. But it was my choice to choose freedom and allow the light in.

Jesus died for all of humanity. They get

the gospel very clearly. [snorts]

There's no question. They don't say Jesus is one of many ways. They say

Jesus is the way the father's given us.

He died to wipe the slate clean for our souls. That's pretty direct. He came to

souls. That's pretty direct. He came to restore our hearts, minds, and bodies.

My heart was filled with self-hatred, resentment, and anger. Through Jesus's

love, and sacrifice, my heart and mind were restored. It all began when Jesus

were restored. It all began when Jesus opened heaven's doors for me. Angels of

heaven have visited me in my sleep since I was three years old. I was brought into the heavenly realm and shown the Lion of Judah. He would walk in green pastures with me and pour his love into

me. These kind of stories are common.

me. These kind of stories are common.

And I love this one. Jeff Jeff who did this one. I love it. He autographed it

this one. I love it. He autographed it for me to pastor Joe. [laughter]

>> Nice.

>> Because he's one of the stories in it.

So they they're very much talking about Jesus. They go to a place called the

Jesus. They go to a place called the hill which is hard to understand.

They're able to speak in they don't use a word like telepathy. They just say we speak in you just in our mind. You don't

need it's spirit speaking to spirit. So

they don't need uh to use a body you know and all of that. They describe as a place where there's freedom. They by the way they not only fellowship with each

other like like the telepathy tapes has picked up. Um they go there to intercede

picked up. Um they go there to intercede for us. They go there to meet with

for us. They go there to meet with Jesus. They get work assignments. They

Jesus. They get work assignments. They

go there all kinds of things happening and most of them won't tell me. I've

heard a number of times we're not allowed to say this. There's a code there. A lot of times in response to

there. A lot of times in response to questions, they will say, [sighs] "I'm not allowed to talk about that." And they'll say to someone, "You need to read your Bible,

pray, and trust God." They they don't view themselves as little oracles or mystics. They're always pointing people

mystics. They're always pointing people to know Jesus personally, get to know God, you know, like Jeremiah 9:24, you

know, uh, I delight in this, the one who understands and knows me, says the Lord.

>> So that that element of things is very much in play, too.

>> Joe, I I wonder if we could talk a little bit about some of the things in particular. I this story of the the

particular. I this story of the the telepathy tapes is important and I think the reason you know it's obvious to me is the way that it caught fire. Um this

this resonates with people. We have been stripped of our spiritual understanding especially here in the west and this is now that you know something that looks like spiritual food. Huge omission. I

mean you know I I understand we already talked about it. We've added these caveats. Um you can't include

caveats. Um you can't include everything. Kai has an agenda and this

everything. Kai has an agenda and this specific thing that's been omitted is in my opinion the most important aspect of this entire story. Um, and specifically

the way Joe is talking about it. Uh, you

seem like a a man with decent discernment. And that's my I' I've never

discernment. And that's my I' I've never spoken to any of these kids. My main

holdup would have been uh, you know, test the spirits. That's what the Bible says. When something approaches you

says. When something approaches you like, I don't know. And I know if I'm thrown into this spiritual realm, I'm going to be a little confused on what to trust, where to go. I wouldn't even I don't even want to go there. I have no

interest in in moving around there. A

lot of people do like astral projection.

I'm like, "No, no, not me." Um, and these kids are kind of I have I have some life experience. I'm from New York, too, so I know how to walk around the streets. I know how to handle myself a

streets. I know how to handle myself a little bit.

>> Forget about it. I know I like you for some reason.

>> You know what I mean? You see trouble, you know how to like, okay, well, there this might be a problem. these kids are in their houses, but then they're thrust into the spiritual realm. So, like my my

question was like, how do they know what's what? But you're saying that the

what's what? But you're saying that the initial I mean, not not just the initial, but the overall sentiment that you're getting from these guys is that they know their stuff and their fruits

bear that.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. And no, that's great question. The um angels at times are

question. The um angels at times are very obvious. They're light. They're

very obvious. They're light. They're

lightbearing and they'll say, you know, angels are worshiping God. They're obeying Jesus

worshiping God. They're obeying Jesus and all that. Sometimes demons are easy to detect. They're dark. There's a

to detect. They're dark. There's a

hateful aspect to them. There are times that I mean, I've talked to some of them and I'll pray with them and for them.

They ask me questions. We've had to go through discerning of spirits. You know,

I can think of times and and I'm not an expert on this. People think like Joe has the answers. I'm feeling my way around a room and I keep becoming aware there's dozens of other rooms in this

place that I get hints about. I don't

even know how to process this. But there

are times that, you know, the Bible says Satan can appear as an angel of light, you know, where I'll hear things like, I'm really troubled. Okay, let's talk about it. Um, you know, the spirit was

about it. Um, you know, the spirit was asking me questions. Why did God let this happen? All right. Well, that's

this happen? All right. Well, that's

pretty easy. Yeah, let's go back to the Garden of Eden was the original temptation asking the question, has God really said and all that? And then a lot of times what I'll do with them is we'll

talk about the fruit of the spirit and um you know say how did you feel after that? Um well I felt afraid. Okay, what

that? Um well I felt afraid. Okay, what

does the scripture say? God's not given us a spirit of fear of but of power, love, and sound thinking. And we walk through those things and and they get it quickly and they say, "Wow, thanks."

Yes. Um, you know, they want prayer.

They want to understand things.

Sometimes they see things and they don't get it or they don't get the context.

You know, uh, is that in scripture, Joe?

Yeah, I can think of examples. Notably,

when when the Apostle Paul is on his way to Jerusalem, the prophet Agabus comes, takes Paul's garment, binds his hands, and says, you know, the Lord says the

one who owns this piece of clothing is going to be handed over to the Jews. and

and all and and you know Luke says we all started pleading with him don't go don't go and Paul said why are you breaking my heart I'm ready to go and die and earlier he had said every place

I go the spirit bears witness that chains await me but what Paul knew from his intimate walk with Jesus was from his very call when Ananas went to pray

for him that the scales would fall of his eyes God said he's a witness to me to speak before kings and rulers and I'll show him what great things he must

suffer for my sake. So the people there had heard from the Holy Spirit, Paul, this is what awaits you, but they drew the wrong conclusion. Therefore, don't

go. And Paul was saying, no, I'm supposed to go. That's exactly my destiny. So, I helped them. And

destiny. So, I helped them. And

sometimes they don't understand things.

>> There was a time a couple of them asked me about incense. Why do they smell incense when um you know, when angels are more active

and fighting? And and you know, if you

and fighting? And and you know, if you want to come back to that, I'll tell you about that.

>> You can't you can't skip over that. I'm

sorry. That's

>> okay. All right. This is a technique. I

mean, the first episode I've ever done when I started this podcast, I interviewed my aunt and she was having demonic oppression. She went to a witch

demonic oppression. She went to a witch doctor in Puerto Rico. Wrong move. Um,

and they had they had her lighting incense and it seemed like it would help for a little while and then it would intensify and it would help again and it then the attacks would intensify. So,

what is that? What's that about?

>> Yeah. I mean, I keep telling people love God. keep getting closer to Jesus and

God. keep getting closer to Jesus and trusting him and those you know those I made our times I've done plenty of spiritual warfare and had those situations and prayed and you know

removed demons and all but the the um you we we you don't want to be afraid of them when you encounter them in believers Jesus gave us authority over serpents and scorpions he gave us

balance too don't rejoice over that rejoice instead that your name is written the book of life people can have unhealthy obsession s with those ideas.

When we encounter them, we deal with them. The main thing we're called to do

them. The main thing we're called to do is glorify God and love him and be witnesses of who he is. So, um, but the the incense, Matthew had asked for prayer about something. At the end of

it, he asked me, "Why do I spell why do I smell incense?"

And he spelled the name of an incense.

It was something like amaranth. My first

thought was, "Oh, great. I'm just

getting my brain wrapped around they see and they hear. Now they're smelling too.

And at first that struck me as really odd. Um so you know we talked a little

odd. Um so you know we talked a little while. I said let me think about this

while. I said let me think about this Matthew. I'll come back and talk to you

Matthew. I'll come back and talk to you about it. And um I started thinking,

about it. And um I started thinking, okay, we have five senses. Do other

senses operate?

Well, both Ezekiel and John in Revelation are handed a scroll and they're holding it. Touch. They're told

eat the scroll. They do and it's sweet in their mouth so they've got taste. And

I thought, all right, [laughter] if if everything else is working, why would smell not be working? I looked up online Amorith. It's funny, there's a close

Amorith. It's funny, there's a close spelling variation. There's an incense

spelling variation. There's an incense of that name and it is made by like an order of monks in some obscure place.

And um so I started thinking, okay, let's try to wrap our hands around this.

It's active when angels are ministering and we're praying. I thought, wait, Revelation 5, Revelation 8, those chapters talk about incense. You go to

them. Those chapters say that incense

them. Those chapters say that incense presented in heaven is the prayers of the saints. They're in a bowl and the

the saints. They're in a bowl and the angels are lifting the bowl before God.

They're the ones administering the, you know, bearing the prayers and and so suddenly, wow. So when we're praying and

suddenly, wow. So when we're praying and they smell that incense. So maybe

incense is is more literal in that prayer than we realize, you know, is a feature even going back to the tabernacle. There was an altar of

tabernacle. There was an altar of incense. It got put right on the curtain

incense. It got put right on the curtain next to the Holy of Holies where the ark of the covenant was. And every day the you know [clears throat] the priest was

lighting the incense and that represented even them the prayers of the saints rising up. So they they keep

opening doors and windows on these marvelous biblical pictures and and verses they start tying together. But do

we get the whole picture? Of course not.

But they discernment of spirits is very important and I've worked with them on that. But there's certain things that

that. But there's certain things that are self-evident to them >> that that gives a little bit new meaning as well. You got my brain just going um

as well. You got my brain just going um when Mary uh pours the perfume on Jesus' feet, wipes it with her hair. It's more

than just uh the sacrifice because that that was like a yearly wage or something like that.

>> And the magi bring like incense and >> frankincense and frankincense and gold.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. really makes you question.

It's is it not just like a is it more than just a profession or like a a gift?

>> Maybe we should burn incense in here.

Probably not.

>> I looked into discernment of spirits and I wrote about that too as well as the ministry of angels and demons. Like some

people are freaked out and they say, "Oh, he they're hearing from angels.

That that's bad, you know." Well, no.

The word angel angelos means messenger.

Angels are bringing messages through all of scripture. I mean just start with the

of scripture. I mean just start with the new you know testament you know Zachchariah John's parents you know Mary Joseph shepherds I mean on and on and on

and all that you what I think what people have to understand is spirits are the same demons are the same order of creation

but they're fallen they're in rebellion against God you know Revelation 12 the the the devil the dragon and his angels fought against Michael and his angels and there was war in heaven. They're in

rebellion against God. Uh which is why, you know, our warfare is not against flesh and blood, but they're the same type, the same order of being. So

there's similarities in the way they were created, just not they're no longer missional. They're no longer worshiping

missional. They're no longer worshiping God. And I'll say, but you know, you're

God. And I'll say, but you know, you're thinking of maybe Galatians. If an angel brings you another um you know gospel, it should be an anathema. It's a curse.

Reject it and all that. These these are not angels bringing another gospel. This

is the same. They're doing the same role. They're bringing comfort. They're

role. They're bringing comfort. They're

bringing the love of God. You say,

"Look, Paul and a terrible storm in the ship that was going to crash and the people on it thought were all dead for sure." Paul says to them, "Good news. an

sure." Paul says to them, "Good news. an

angel of the God I serve appeared to me last night. God's graciously given all

last night. God's graciously given all the lives on the ship, you know, but you all have to stay with with it. And and

so, you know, you you want to be careful not to take one verse out of context.

The angels love the Lord. They worship.

They fight for us. They they talk about there's a couple here and they're guarding today. And this was an

guarding today. And this was an interesting story. Um when when when

interesting story. Um when when when Cody's mom, Glory, was on vacation, um they were in a a room in a hotel and Cody was sitting in another part of the

the uh the room and uh Glory was reading an earlier version of the manuscript and Cody suddenly spoke up and said, "Elisha,

Elisha." Again, non-speaking is

Elisha." Again, non-speaking is preferred over non-verbal because they can sometimes say words or even a few words or a fragment of a sentence. Just

the speech is not reliable. So, she

thought that's interesting. Why would he say Elisha?

She went back to the book and kept reading. In the next paragraph, I was

reading. In the next paragraph, I was writing about Elisha and his servant at the city, I believe it was Dothan, where the servants freaking out because the

enemy troops are all around. Elisha

says, "Don't don't worry. There's more

with us than with them." You know, Lord, open his eyes. And the servant is able to see the hillside covered with chariots of fire and, you know, and and

angels. And so, Elisha just had that

angels. And so, Elisha just had that ability to see into the realm. There are

times in scripture and even now in this world, I've met people, I don't have that ability, but I've met people who say they do. And so,

Glory was just amazed. to the next spelling session. Uh, she said, "Cody,

spelling session. Uh, she said, "Cody, why did you say Elisha? Jesus told me that you were reading about Elisha and angels, and I wanted you to know that I

really do see angels." So, these stories are the new norm for me for many of these non persons with non-speaking autism. They glorify God. They want

autism. They glorify God. They want

people to be ready. A lot of them say Jesus is coming quickly. And um it it could be there's God is doing something in this world.

>> It's wild because this is not this is obviously by this conversation become the norm for you and you know it's it's spread across uh multiple individuals to live. It is a fantastic world but it's

live. It is a fantastic world but it's not the one that we get you know from sort of the cold clinical uh uh diagnosis of a non-verbal autistic individual. That's not what we're

individual. That's not what we're subjected to. That's not part of the the

subjected to. That's not part of the the narrative or anything like that. And you

know, this entire thing, um, this omission is a tremendous one and it it's it's an important one that will change dramatically the way that you perceive not only this phenomenon, but also what

it means in the larger picture. And

clearly what it means in the larger picture is that Jesus is real. Uh, this

unseen realm, you know, as Heiser puts it, is real. and and these people are interacting with that realm in a way that far exceeds the average person's

capability of interacting with it. I

wonder could you talk about any specific moments or moments or instances rather that were omitted from this final product that um you would have really

liked to have seen in there. I mean,

this whole thing, this whole omission is is a huge one. But

>> well, and after this, I want to talk about what was put in itsstead because I feel like that's the maybe the most important thing to drive home to our audience is kind of like preaching in the choir, but you know, this gets

>> and you're you're talking you're referring to the telepathy tapes >> to the telepathy tapes. Was there

anything uh that wasn't seen by people that should have been seen by people specific?

>> Okay. The biggest thing is that they're all talking about from my experience, the ones I meet, they're all talking about Jesus, even ones who didn't come

from church backgrounds. And um you know, I I think the telepathy tapes editing was interested in com my

comments on why spelling is reliable and some of the science and all of that. And

then also like you know Kai left in a story about um that they they'll see things before they happen. That freaks

out some people like what time? Is that

like you know fortunetelling or something? No. But because God is

something? No. But because God is outside of time. The prophet Agabus foresaw a famine and the church said okay we'll get ready. You know Joseph

interpreted Pharaoh's dream. A famine's

coming. You know and all that. This was

just one of the, you know, a young woman kept telling her, "Dad, be careful.

You're going to slip on ice and get hurt very badly. Please be careful. Please be

very badly. Please be careful. Please be

careful." And he came to see me and, you know, I got to know him and he came to faith in Christ through all this. And

the um he said, "She keeps warning me of this, but we're in Phoenix. We don't get much ice." He um weeks later he was on a

much ice." He um weeks later he was on a business trip in the Midwest and he texted me from an emergency room to say um you're not going to believe this. I

went back to the hotel. I slipped on ice, broke my hip. They're putting in hardware. Uh you know, here is a picture

hardware. Uh you know, here is a picture of the X-ray that they took. And so I mean this is just it's just kind of

really really wild stuff. Um but these these things you know um these things keep happening. What what I would have

keep happening. What what I would have liked to have seen I don't want to lose track of your question is the the people

I'm meeting and talking to are are all so connected to God doing something

um uh really connected with the idea of God's love uh really connected with you know the idea that they're supposed to be messengers that they're gifts for us.

That's one of the reasons we use hidden gifts ministry right now. When we think of people with

right now. When we think of people with those kinds of disabilities, the word burden creeps into our mind. Who's going

to care for them? They have to be fed or this or that and and all. Well, once we get to know them, we see what's inside them to learn that they're interceding for us that I mean, they've shared

insights and some of them have said to me, Joe, Jesus wants you to know this and shared intensely profound personal things and and all. Um, I I I I think

I'm sorry what didn't get out is that God wants to change the way we see every human being, especially the ones whom we discount. Every human being is an image

discount. Every human being is an image bearer of God. We draw wrong conclusions. We we idolize the rich, the

conclusions. We we idolize the rich, the famous, the great athletes, you know, the influencers and all that. And

sometimes God moves the most powerfully through the least of these, that person on the street. And I God wants us seeing people differently. And I wish more of

people differently. And I wish more of that had come out. Also, Kai said that

they people tend to see God in their tradition and she left it at that. I

think that's a kind of unfair understatement.

Oh, I don't want to say that. That

sounds like I'm criticizing and and that that's her way of explaining it. I I

think that that doesn't adequately explain what I've seen and how much God and and Jesus are at the center of it. Even

where people come from other religious backgrounds, let me say it that way, >> right? Like the the consistent overlap

>> right? Like the the consistent overlap and description is uh is something that you can't or well, you know, the other people naysayers can't explain away. I

guess they'll do their best and uh you know good luck to them but some something interesting that you that you had mentioned as well about like this uh this foresight of something that is going to happen maybe even it probably

happens to them even like maybe minuscule things like hey you might drop that pen they saw that a couple seconds before and whatever um in our our studies with uh our friend Dr. Jerry Marzinski who was a licensed

psychotherapist for 30 something years.

He he thinks that uh the condition of schizophrenia is actually more of a spiritual condition rather than hallu just hallucinations because it draws

patterns. But one of those patterns

patterns. But one of those patterns would be people having like this kind of foresight of things right before that right before they happen.

>> Precognition. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Precognition. just a very interesting overlap or thought or like I I don't know quite where to put it but there is a condition that these people

have and it's giving them these abilities that sort of overlap like you know obviously schizophrenia they'd say that they're being tormented by demons but

they're in a they're communicating with another realm >> you know they've kicked open >> yeah these are very yeah very tough qu I mean there were legitimate forms of mental illness and people who who do

better on medications and all that. And

I think we have to approach these with a lot of wisdom and discernment. And then

remember as well, I mean, somebody might see something but not interpret it correctly. So of necessity, we have to

correctly. So of necessity, we have to stick very closely to the Bible. I said

in the introduction when I dove into this world and started examining it you know as a skeptic one of my opening you

know you know foundations was if it's anti-biblical if it contradicts the scripture is has to be thrown out there's something else happening here and that's not been the case everything

I've seen with my experience the people I've spoken with is always biblical and it very strongly correlates to to Jesus.

He's he's so prominent in this.

>> Do you um do the people that you talk to also have uh like the premonition of this like catastrophe, this thing happening? Oh, that's an interesting

happening? Oh, that's an interesting question >> because that's this is what the telepathy tapes draws its conclusion at sort of where it's like there's going to be a destruction of some type or a polar

shift or a I don't know >> we're going to the the in other words a global catastrophe that needs to be sidestepped in some way shape or form.

>> Yeah. If we don't do this >> I believe the way the telepathy tapes kind of leaves it off is is um and and I don't disagree with this message. If you

look at it through a biblical lens, it's like being good shepherds, you know, to the earth. Um, or not shepherds, what's

the earth. Um, or not shepherds, what's the uh there's a >> stewards.

>> Stewards. Thank you. Um,

>> but this sort of thing comes up a lot in our in our research. I mean, is there anything when you're when you're talking to these kids, are they concerned one way or another with the state of the earth and the trajectory?

>> Yeah. Also preface I I like to preface it too. So there's no trickery in the

it too. So there's no trickery in the question because when we when we talk to people who are like alien abductees, >> they get the same message.

>> They get the same message. They're

talking about the intergalactic federation of light like this.

>> Yeah. Y

>> Yeah. And and they're like there's going to be a a catastrophe and that's why we need to ascend. And a lot of new age thought leads to this. And we heard the same thing coming from some of the kids

uh in the telepathy tapes or at least that's what was told uh through the podcast. And I'm just like I I don't

podcast. And I'm just like I I don't know where to put it.

>> How how prevalent is that sort of message?

>> Yeah, not it's not super common. Um I've

gotten some hints of it and not really been able to explore it. I I wouldn't be comfortable saying that

they're actually saying that the the and bear in mind spelling is is is a difficult process. when you see the book

difficult process. when you see the book and you see, you know, one page with a spelling conver that could have taken an hour. Imagine having to get your body

hour. Imagine having to get your body going and point to a letter and it could be slow for some and delete that letter and all. And it the the main things have

and all. And it the the main things have been one, they want people to know who they are. I'm in here. It's it's

they are. I'm in here. It's it's

thrilling for them. Their families are meeting them and finding out what they're interested in. Then second, they want people to know they do see the spiritual world. Jesus is real. They see

spiritual world. Jesus is real. They see

angels and demons. They see them fighting over us. So they kind of focusing on those things. Those are the most [snorts] immediate parts. And sometimes it's hard

immediate parts. And sometimes it's hard to get subtleties. Like I could ask you guys a question, you give me an answer, I could follow up and get some nuance.

It's really difficult to do that. So

while you know I've gotten maybe occasionally hints about that it's not a popular or prominent subject and even there if that was coming you know now

and then from somebody I would want to know um more about the context and even you know um I I would want to have some

spiritual discernment what they might be hearing from whom they might hear it.

Now, you could look at Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and the signs before Jesus returns. Unless those days were cut

returns. Unless those days were cut short, no life would survive. You know,

signs in the heaven, you know, earthquakes famines pestilence and all that. But you can certainly see

all that. But you can certainly see those kinds of things in the in the scripture.

And u and yet it's interesting Jesus does not give us a lot of detail. We

don't know the day of the hour.

We get some hints about the season when you see these things begin to come to pass. Lift up your head. You know, your

pass. Lift up your head. You know, your redemption's drawing close and all that, but um it seems like whenever those things come up, the focus is not on the

events. The focus is on be ready.

events. The focus is on be ready.

>> You know, um if the if the servant knew what time the master was returning, it would have he would have been ready.

There there's there's a lot of parables and teaching where the Lord's conveying you don't know it's going to come unexpected. It's going to be like in the

unexpected. It's going to be like in the days of Noah they were eating and drinking and partying and wham it hit.

You know the the focus just seems to be be more focused on walking intimately with me, getting your relationship in

order. Making daily time with me a

order. Making daily time with me a priority. Get in your Bible. pray, see

priority. Get in your Bible. pray, see

what I've got for you to do, and then you're ready. You're walking in

you're ready. You're walking in readiness. If if if tomorrow there's a

readiness. If if if tomorrow there's a 911 type event, but a hundred times worse. Um, we're not going to be

worse. Um, we're not going to be scrambling, where do we run to get answers? Oh, no. We better go to Every

answers? Oh, no. We better go to Every time those things happen, the churches are full, right? People want answers. I

think Jesus wants us to live in a way that we know him more intimately and trust him and love him where he's the answer. We don't have to have fear in

answer. We don't have to have fear in those situations where, you know, we're lifting up our head.

That that's a sign of expectation and almost rejoicing that the the culmination of the greatest thing God's promised us is coming. So again, I don't we don't get a lot of detail on that. Um

if if I hear more, I'll let you guys know and we can, you know, pick up the theme on it. But the, you know, my response to that would be the more of that you hear, the more you should focus

on being ready.

>> Interesting little tidbit for you and and I and I think that is uh um you know that's well said and I'm glad to hear that that is the the message that comes

across. something that you might find

across. something that you might find interesting. We had a a writer or

interesting. We had a a writer or listener submit uh an email to us and say that, you know, she's the mother of a non-verbal or or non-speaking autistic

child. Um and that through one way or

child. Um and that through one way or another, you know, she didn't go into great detail, but she brought these concepts up to her child after hearing

about us talk about the telepathy tapes.

And uh he was receptive. one thing led to another and he seemed to insinuate that the hill >> uh was in Utah. So or you know in other words he had experienced the hill as

well and then said that it was in Utah interestingly enough. Now you know who

interestingly enough. Now you know who who knows to what degree there's communication there or if that was what the actual message was. I understand

these things can be difficult but I just thought that that was a fascinating >> Yeah. Yeah. Can I say a word about the

>> Yeah. Yeah. Can I say a word about the hill?

>> The the um it's hard to know what it is.

It's not heaven, but it seems to be something like a suburb of heaven. The

there are colors that you've never se >> Everything worships God. The the

flowers, they're very important to the spellers. I tried to describe a little

spellers. I tried to describe a little of what they said about that that the flowers have emit energy which is the creative energy of God and that people

are tied to flowers somehow. uh whatever

that mysterious sentence means. Um but

often they're aware that the city is that way, you know, or something like that. And it seems that there's fields

that. And it seems that there's fields and some of them have described fields and places just beautiful. Gold is a common color of, you know, the vegetation there, but everything

worships God. The plants are worshiping

worships God. The plants are worshiping God. The animals, there's animals, they

God. The animals, there's animals, they say the animals are worshiping God. Um

so all these things are you know happening there and uh and I just want to add this because a lot of times people hear these things and they go oh that's my child my child's non-speaking

autism. I would just recommend that they

autism. I would just recommend that they go to that hidden gifts ministry.org.

My dear friends Matt and Glory Cody's parents have lived this. What how do you bring siblings into it? um from the shock of the diagnosis and the fear like

what's going to happen after we're gone and this and that. That's why we're trying to that's Cody when he was young there. That's what what we're trying to

there. That's what what we're trying to put lots of resources including information about spelling uh places you might be able to you know

find a spelling facilitator. I don't do that. I don't know how to do it. I've

that. I don't know how to do it. I've

tried to with Cody. We've had some limited success. Uh but there, you know,

limited success. Uh but there, you know, there's a resources page. There's some

good books there like underestimated.

We're putting a link to getting government re, you know, uh resource resources or help. We want to keep loading this with free resources so that

as you meet people, you can recommend it to them. You've got a friend at work.

to them. You've got a friend at work.

So, do me a favor. Just go check out that website. We want people to be

that website. We want people to be blessed and if we're able to do it, we want to scholarship people too because spelling is not covered by insurance

and a lot of people can't afford it. We

would love to scholarship people who want to study spelling who will agree to work with lowincome people to help them meet their kids. Um you'll see where you

buy spelling boards, where you get lessons. You can get lessons free and

lessons. You can get lessons free and download them if you want to try this on your own. You'll see interviews with

your own. You'll see interviews with people who have gone through it. I I

feel like I don't want to talk about this and just convey the the mystic parts of it. I love the mystic parts. I

live for that, too. My heart is really to reach the people walking through this to say, "Hey, there's going to be help here for you. We want to glorify God

together in this." And then in the unexpected, you know, uh, paradoxical ways of God, we reach to comfort them and love them.

And then it turns out they're a provision for us and they're blessing us with insights that knock me off my

chair. So this is just God being God

chair. So this is just God being God doing it both ways. So people listening starting point if what can I do for spelling? Don't go to me personally. Go

spelling? Don't go to me personally. Go

to hidden gifts. if you email us there, we'll get back to you, too. But, um, go there and look at resources and start reading more about it. And that's like the first step into it.

>> Um, maybe a question you can answer. I

don't know this again. He's like he's like, "Don't ask me, but I'm going to ask you." Um, [laughter]

ask you." Um, [laughter] so I I see the spelling board here, but like uh is there going to be like a prerequisite for the the child to I mean, they have to know they have to

know the letters. They have to know the language to >> Here's the shocking thing. They've they

they're autodidactic. They they've l I've asked many of them, "How did you learn how to spell like they spell big complex words, you know, one of Cody's

early spelling sessions, he was asked a genus and species of a a narwhal and he answered Mono today, you like his mom almost fell off her chair." So,

University of Virginia's had a lot of good info on this. And a short answer, we live in a printrich environment. We

take words for granted. They're all

around us. I'm sitting here with you right now. Virtually everywhere I look

right now. Virtually everywhere I look in my office, I'm seeing words.

>> So, they've lived, they've heard people pronounce words, they've seen that what people are saying, they get the letters and all of that. They just pick it up.

They're self-taught.

and they have a much deeper level of sophistication than I than than we realized. And again, some of the recent

realized. And again, some of the recent UVA articles say we've really seriously underestimated the verbal abilities of

non-speaking persons. We have a natural

non-speaking persons. We have a natural prejudice that kicks in when somebody cannot um answer us in a familiar way. I

had somebody here looking into it, you know, not long ago and we were meeting some people is a young woman in a wheelchair who's who speech is very

difficult. She has a severe cerebopal

difficult. She has a severe cerebopal paly. She's had visions too. She spells

paly. She's had visions too. She spells

on a device. She's an honors graduate of Arizona State University. She was our graduation speaker. She's an author. And

graduation speaker. She's an author. And

it's funny people and I tell people that in advance and her name is Brooke Brown.

And people will come up and they'll see or hi Brooke. They don't get an answer they can understand and this is the default. It's so nice to meet you.

default. It's so nice to meet you.

[laughter] And after I said person we all did the same thing. So when I hear that I'll

same thing. So when I hear that I'll then you know in the next sentence say you know Brooke this person is really happy to meet you. I'm so glad you were here. You had books for them. I I talk

here. You had books for them. I I talk like I'm talking to you because they get that. They want that. And this is not a

that. They want that. And this is not a bad on us like how could we, you know, this is more just there's something in us that triggers. If you talk to a

six-month-old, you don't expect to get an answer. You don't talk the same way.

an answer. You don't talk the same way.

Yeah. We talk to the kids as if they did understand because we get that's helping them to understand and develop words and language and all that. Well, there

that's it's just a natural response we have. Again, as one of the big themes of

have. Again, as one of the big themes of the book is is that we should always uh assume competence.

Speak to everyone you meet like that as if they can understand you. I've met

people since I'm in a some place or outside walking as a mom and the kids in a wheelchair. We say hello. We get into

a wheelchair. We say hello. We get into a conversation. Can I talk to your

a conversation. Can I talk to your daughter for a bit? Sure. And I'll just turn to the, you know, the one in the wheelchair and I'll say, I'm so happy to meet you. I hope I know you're enjoying

meet you. I hope I know you're enjoying this beautiful day. It's really a blessing to meet you. You know, I know there's a lot of special things in your life and sometimes I'll you'll see the reaction on their face like, "Oh my

goodness, he knows I'm here or something." So we that's that's a really

something." So we that's that's a really important part of it, how we treat people. I think God's reorganizing our

people. I think God's reorganizing our thinking to see people more the way he does.

>> I you know, all of that makes me really hopeful for the future. I feel like we're we're turning a corner um pretty rapidly, not only in our understanding of this, but but in um some people say

we're in the middle of a revival. And I

and I hope that that is the case. And um

I think that stories like yours and you know, sure there may have been some omission on part of the telepathy tapes, but it it kicks the door open and then look at the conversations that we get to

have here and and so these stories do get told and that is important. And um I don't know. I think I'm just hopeful for

don't know. I think I'm just hopeful for the future and the direction that this is going in. Um

>> kind of encouraging.

>> Can I just add to that? I I say amen.

It's I've had people say, "Oh no, that with the telepathy tapes, it's going to be a movie in 2026 and it's going to be all this weird like newagy sounding stuff and all it. It's here. It's

getting people to think about the concepts.

>> Christians are going to want to know what does this mean? we should be ready [clears throat] to tell them, you know, um we accept the parts of it that are, you know, all truth is God's truth. If

they're able to see and communicate, let's rejoice in that, but let's just find out more. What is God doing in I I view I see it as a great opportunity.

>> Yeah. I think that the when when this first happened, the telepathy tapes, I felt as though the Holy Spirit kind of put it on our radar. there was some nudging to look at it

>> and and sure in in this discussion there there's maybe something you could describe as bitterness when it comes to the way that things were portrayed but then we get emails from people which we have and I I can think of a couple

people in particular who have children that you know suffer from this disposition and who who have thanked us for for talking about it and the more we talk about it the more this information gets out I'm to the point now where I

have a I do have a hard time looking at it in a negative light look at the fruit that it's bore. Look at the conversations we get to have.

>> Yeah. But it's our it's also our job. So

like when I guess when we first started the show or like my gripe with the I I used to go to church then stopped and then and now we're going again. But my

gripe was uh the lack of dealing with the supernatural or dealing with some of these things. Depending on which church

these things. Depending on which church you go to, some people will just tell you to kick rocks when you're asking them the questions that we've asked you that you've gave us really great answers to. And it's our job to have those

to. And it's our job to have those answers. Otherwise people will go and

answers. Otherwise people will go and they'll get the answers from somebody else and all it takes >> but be but be kind. You know the church every church is imperfect and some

people have answers and I wse at them and all go there and be the light for that. Be the one who helps people

that. Be the one who helps people understand that that you will never find a perfect church. But you know as soon as you do it won't be perfect because you're in it.

>> That's true.

>> There's an old joke. Can I tell you an old joke?

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> I know we're running tight on time, but a man is rescued from a desert island.

And uh the captain of the ship comes aboard. He says, "You're amazing. You

aboard. He says, "You're amazing. You

were here for years. How did you survive?" And he sees three huts in the

survive?" And he sees three huts in the center of the island. The man says, "Well, I built three huts. That first

hut was my home. I knew I needed shelter from the elements." Wow, amazing. What's

the second hut? Second hut's my church.

I knew I wouldn't make it unless I was in tune with God and walking with the Lord and trusting. Wow. Amazing. What's

the third hut? Oh, that that's the church I used to belong to, you know.

[laughter] >> That's actually very funny. That's a

great Yeah.

>> Fair. Fair enough. Fair enough.

>> That's [laughter] I love that. That's

great.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's

>> I'm going to tell that and I'm not going to credit you.

>> You don't have to.

>> I'm not crediting whoever told me. So,

that's >> There you go. [laughter] Um, well, look, I I I I want to I want to bring it in for a landing, but we do have one last question that we we like to ask our guests, and everybody has such a unique

perspective because of the different field of study they come from. And so,

I'm eager to hear your response. Not

necessarily uh Joe in this conversation, but your pursuits, everything that you're involved with, and uh um and I I think I kind of already imagined the

answer, but are you having fun?

>> I am having the time of my life. And um

you know you we've all heard the the difference between joy and happiness.

Happiness is transient. It focuses on an event. When the event is is done, it's I

event. When the event is is done, it's I I am having a blast and and part of that ha part of the fun comes from a deep joy

of letting go of more things and I'm find I'm able to trust God in a deeper way. Um, look, up to the time that, you

way. Um, look, up to the time that, you know, a lot of our life were driven by all kinds of things and fears and anxieties and pride and especially, you

know, as men, where do we fit in and and how do people see us and we're worried about those things. There's something

really blessed and liberating about um meeting people so free of that because of the the way that they live and just getting to know them for the sake of

knowing them. It's kind of like I look

knowing them. It's kind of like I look at other stuff and I go, "What the heck does that mean? That means nothing." And

the process I've been going through with that has been so much fun. I feel like it's almost not right that I'm enjoying it so much.

>> [laughter] >> That's uh that's a it's good to hear. I

I will say the common thread um and I very much think that you you find yourself in this position uh Joe is when people are doing what they feel they

were meant to do.

>> You know, we spend a lot of time looking for like what's our purpose? What does

God want us to do? Uh what's God's plans for us? And overwhelmingly the people

for us? And overwhelmingly the people that we talk to I I feel like they're they figured that out. They're they're

on that path. they're talking to people and they're trying to, you know, spread this information. And so, um, I just

this information. And so, um, I just think that that's like the real commonality is >> Yes. Yes.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Yeah. Did you see did you see the movie Chariots of Fire was the best picture long time back?

>> Um, who was that by?

>> Um, >> I think that sounds familiar.

>> It's about It's about runners in England and the Olympics and >> Well worth seeing. One's a Christian runner based on a true story. Um, and

the other is Jewish and they win gold medals in the Olympics, but it's their stories. And the Christian runner who

stories. And the Christian runner who died in World War II in a Japanese camp, you know, makes a decision to run in the Olympics. And his sister's all upset,

Olympics. And his sister's all upset, you should be about serving God and and all. And there and they're from Scotland

all. And there and they're from Scotland and they're walking in the Highlands.

And he tells her he's going to run the Olympics to glorify God. At one point he takes her by the arms and he looks her and her name is Jenny and he says, "Jenny,

God made me fast >> and when I run I feel his pleasure." And

I thought, "Oh man, that's it. When you

do what he made you to do, you feel his pleasure."

pleasure." >> That's that's the thing. This is what I'm trying to do with my life and whatever talents or whatever thing I think I do good. I'm like, "All right,

well, how could I use that for God now instead of uh sitting on it or doing nothing?" And when you do, it feels

nothing?" And when you do, it feels feels really good. It's like you said, it's almost like I'm like greedy in a sense, like, right? It's like, I did this and I feel great. This is And then you keep doing it and you're like, I

feel even better now. And it's just >> I guess we should keep doing it though.

>> That's it. Go for it. And And because you're from New York, go for it. And if

it doesn't work, you can always drag the guy in an alley and pound. Well, no,

never mind.

>> There you go. Well, no. We we've removed I don't know if you could take the New York out of him, but we did take him out of New York. [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> What part of New York were you from?

>> Uh part. Yeah. I was

>> Oh, I was I was born in Brooklyn. Okay.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Grew up in Coney Island and then Sheep's Head Bay and then got >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

>> All right. Explains a lot. That explains

a lot.

>> Now I get it. Now it makes sense. All

right.

>> Now I get it.

>> Thank you, Joseph. Can you tell again one more time, tell them where they could uh support your your ministry and and >> the book the book is Decoding Cody.

There's the cover. It it's available of course anywhere, you know, if you want to go on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, Walmart, they're all covering it. If you

if if you want to go on hidden gifts ministry.org, uh you can get the book there for a donation. Uh there's a suggested

donation. Uh there's a suggested donation, but whatever you can afford.

And there were, you know, I we're sending signed copies and every penny that comes from it, literally every penny is going for the ministry and and

trying to help uh special needs people and get this off the ground. So great to thank you guys for asking about that.

>> Well, thank you for joining us. Thank

you for your time. Uh really really appreciate it. This is something that's

appreciate it. This is something that's been fascinating to us for a while and it's great to finally get to talk to somebody who uh knows it intimately and it's a great message to hear. It may

have been omitted but we talked about it here.

>> Been great to be with you and I didn't get to ask you why or how you came up with Nephilim Death Squad. So maybe

another time if we love to have you back.

>> I want to I didn't want to ask you that.

Okay.

>> All right.

>> Yeah. We'll we'll have you back when uh maybe with our uh our friend Matt. He's

a he's like kind of like a biblical scholar and we could hit something uh maybe something real fun if you'll come back. Yeah,

back. Yeah, >> I I'm happy to. I I already have way more information in the book. Like this

is happening with people with Down syndrome. There may be multiple hills.

syndrome. There may be multiple hills.

>> Oh wow. Wow.

>> Burying the lead, Joe. How dare you?

>> I'm scratching the surface. There's more

that keeps coming. and problem is processing it to the point that I feel comfortable enough talking about it and having a biblical framework. So,

>> well, we would love to have you back.

>> We'll do we'll do it again for sure, guys. Yeah.

guys. Yeah.

>> Awesome.

>> Thank you, Joe. And guys, thanks for tuning in. Until next time, don't forget

tuning in. Until next time, don't forget to obey, submit, and comply. We'll see

you later.

[music] >> [music] [music] >> Hey, [music] hey, hey.