Zomato's 'Healthy Mode': Can A Food Delivery App Really Change India's Eating Habits?

Hello and welcome to the big question on NDTV Profit. I'm Vicramosa and today

NDTV Profit. I'm Vicramosa and today we're talking about food delivery giant Zumato which has just served up something new on its menu and it's called healthy mode. It has been

launched this week in Gurugram alone, but it's a feature that uses AI to rate every dish with a healthy score. So,

you'll have a rating from low healthy to medium to high to super healthy. And

that is based not just on calories, it's based on also protein and fiber and micronutrients.

So, that's the brand promise now to make healthy eating transparent and make it effortless on the platform on Zumato for now. Interesting that this rollout is

now. Interesting that this rollout is coming at a time when India is grappling with rising lifestyle diseases, obesity, diabetes, heart issues and of course at a time when nearly one in every five

urban Indians are saying that they are actively trying to eat healthier. It's

also happening at a time when wearable health tech and calorie tracking apps, they're getting quite popular. So yes,

it makes sense for food delivery platforms like Zumato to step up as well partners in that journey, so to speak.

But now, let's tackle the twist in the tail. Is this genuinely about improving

tail. Is this genuinely about improving our food choices, making us healthier by the consumption of healthier food, or is it another clever way to keep us glued

to the app and order more with the promise of all that food being healthy?

After all, restaurants may chase higher ratings through their healthier food options. Menus may get tweaked to

options. Menus may get tweaked to accommodate more of those. A food

delivery app like Zumato is getting a fresh USB in crowded food tech market.

So that is the question that we're asking. Is this about big business or

asking. Is this about big business or can it be an actual health booster for consumers right now? It's a big one that we are taking across to our panel that's

joining us. Uh a great panel. Dr. Shikh

joining us. Uh a great panel. Dr. Shikh

Sharma is a scientific mentor at Ranfort Wellness. She's joining us and along

Wellness. She's joining us and along with her at the moment we have Shria Shivangi is a life coach and she helps people make real everyday choices about food and lifestyle and balance. So let

me begin by asking you Dr. Shikhal Sharma first tell me why you think food delivery apps are getting more health consscious more calorie conscious what do you think is the reason?

I think the fundamental reason is that people are getting more health consscious. Their target consumer is

consscious. Their target consumer is getting more health conscious and therefore food delivery apps who are not considered actually the healthy way of eating. Uh so they want to be seen in a

eating. Uh so they want to be seen in a new light. Uh like we say greenwashing I

new light. Uh like we say greenwashing I think this is some sort of a health washing happening and I'll come to that later. uh but definitely they are trying

later. uh but definitely they are trying to uh uh leverage themselves on this health and get on the health band path.

>> Shria Shivangi who are these people that Dr. Sharma is pointing at who are interested in healthier food options are they urban millennials are they genzing

this kind of digital health guidance or is this supply chasing demand that doesn't really exist? What do you think?

>> Yeah. So well it's a welcome move from Zomato because it's enabled customers to make a conscious choice about what they consume but the concern here is what our

overworked time staff generation needs is not more data baggage yeah there's already an explosion of AI and data influx that

will fuel further guilt eating and mental strain right but what we seek is a holistic mindful end-to-end solution

A healthy word filter is useful, but it isn't a mindful holistic solution. Like

imagine like how we still smoke despite all the warnings.

So we'll still consume the pizzas but maybe with more guilt.

So are we addressing that?

>> You're saying Shria that we are going to still continue with our old habits because there is something called consumer behavior. We'll continue doing

consumer behavior. We'll continue doing that but perhaps we'll do it more with guilt rather than making any active change. What do you think as a nutrition

change. What do you think as a nutrition expert Shikh Sharma? Do you believe Zumato's healthy mode is genuinely going to empower you and me to make better food choices or is this going to be a

cosmetic feature which is dressed up with AI now which is easier to sell to the kind of audience we spoke about millennials and Gen Z.

I think with the AI model it's likely to be more like a like a green washing or a health washing and I'll tell you why. A

lot of years back there was a research which was done in American schools that how much vegetables are the children eating and it came out that 100% of kids were eating vegetables and you know what really came out once they did a deep

dive because they themselves were shocked to see such a wonderful result was that the kids were reporting vegetables in terms of potato chips and tomato ketchup. So I think if we used AI

tomato ketchup. So I think if we used AI like that where we are talking about calorie then a biscuit with high protein and high fiber but lot of chemicals and

preservatives could come up in the AI engine as a health food. So I think what needs to be really understood is how is the algorithm of this AI being designed because if it is only about calories and

proteins and a lot of chemical foods will get in which are by no stretch of imagination healthy.

So that is a point well taken but Shria Shivangi when you're talking about something that is a one-sizefits all one also wonders whether we are going to set aside our individual needs when our

health journeys are concerned we have very specific needs so how is that going to add up when you have a generic score which is a healthy score if we decide to go with it or perhaps not like you're

saying but it still begs the question that can you have something as generic as this that applies to everyone rather than address my own personal health journey.

>> So digital has seen explosion. We will

reach there.

>> I think they have taken the first step.

So wearing that marketer hat I surely see there would be soon a companion, a health coach, a partner will be guiding but the point is right now with so much

of noise around we end up finding solutions in junk. Either the food or the drink or the thought. That is the point wherein I advocate that how do you

embrace that mindfulness that pause that hey is this something that I'm going to order or is it something I can do away with >> that is that is a very difficult

question to answer most of the time you're hungry and you order at that time you're not really thinking and now if there is certain information that is going to pop up Dr. Shikh Sharma that this is a healthy dish. It's super

healthy perhaps. Then perhaps does that make my choice easier? How much can you rely on an algorithm to assess nutrition for one given how recipes vary across

restaurants and kitchens? Isn't there a huge margin of error you can expect over here?

>> Absolutely. I agree with you. A this AI is not personalized. It's at a very nent stage what they're using. B I really would love to know what is the algorithm where is the AI coming from what is what are the rules engine which have been

created have they been vetted by the best nutrition professionals or doctors or is it just some people coming up with data and putting an AI engine together

so I think in terms of personalization in terms of the whole algorithm I have questions and thirdly I would say that everybody's health journey is different so just by saying it's healthy doesn't make it healthy this is what the

marketing had done with a lot of products on the shelves which they said oh zero cholesterol but actually they had palm oil or they had other kinds of oils which were refined oils. So I think

we have to we have to really go deeper into this to really understand how healthy is the so-called healthy on an AI engine.

>> You're suggesting that we need an FSAI to kind of go through the claims being made over here because there is a health score. Now who's going to verify that?

score. Now who's going to verify that?

Who's going to be accountable? Should

platforms themselves be held accountable? um Dr. Sharma for promoting

accountable? um Dr. Sharma for promoting this kind of u food uh through discounts they often come through advertisements are obviously made now you're going to have a health score as well and that we

don't know exactly where it's coming from like you said how have they arrived at this kind of algorithm so they are launching these health features but accountability is still in question isn't it

>> absolutely I agree with you so I think any see any app or any any business is driven by at the end of the day revenues uh and the bottom line. So I really

don't expect that any business would come up very clearly about how they have arrived at such numbers. Uh so a third party audit always helps. FSCI is a good

start and uh that's where I think that uh when we are talking about public information we're talking about public health uh it is important to have a third party audits on such kind of

claims >> and do tell me as far as your opinion goes on this feature Shria do you think it could oversimplify nutrition because

now we're reducing it to a score when good health is far more complex than protein or fiber counts. Tell me is this

oversimplification also in a sense?

>> Well, oversimplification in terms of ingredients and app scoring from low to high to super. But the real gamecher will happen when we really understand

the consumer. Like I was speaking to a

the consumer. Like I was speaking to a zenzi and he was saying that you know in office space because of peer pressure they have to consume lot of things which they don't want to.

So all those things have to be really thought out by these marketers who have such huge consumer base that how do you oversimplify

and empower your customers to make those strong decisions to say no like you see and you're aware but sometimes you end up consuming because of peer pressure is what I'm trying to bring up which Zenzi

is really facing the challenge like you are in a networking party and everybody's holding a drink everybody's having the junk in your We are in that

space. So how are you in that app or in

space. So how are you in that app or in that space helping them unnoise those noise which is coming and be confident and be assertive and be mindful. Hey

this is my choice and I'm okay with it and you should also be okay with it and do not judge me for what I'm having.

>> The the difficulty I say when I say holistic >> shria that difficulty in making that choice for a consumer is the one that we are trying to address. Now apps are coming in and saying we'll make that

choice for you in a sense saying that look if you're looking for something healthy here is the healthiest option that's available to you right now.

Joining us in this discussion is also the co-founder of V3 ventures. He's also

the founder of Dr. Vya Zajjin Veda is with us as well and along with him we have uh we also have Capil Gupta he's the founder of soul wellness and of course he works on building accessible

digital mental and physical wellness ecosystems. So the context is going to be important as well. Barajun Vya first to you as an investor. Would you put money behind this kind of idea? Is there

a scalable monetization model that you see or do you think this is just turning out to be good optics for Zamato?

>> Well, look, I think that uh it's much more than optics, right? We live in an India now where we live in an India now where customers are actually reading labels. We live in

an India now where people understand the importance of protein. We live in India now where people are thinking about what we eat and so this is not just come as

something that um is optics it's of course good business but it comes from what customers are asking there was a time when fried junk palm oil fil

vegetable oil fil food was all that people were eating without caring and that's changed I see myself now on food delivery apps looking for high protein options I see myself on food delivery apps looking at the calorie count I I

see myself on food delivery apps reading how much sugar there is in the product.

One data point which is quite interesting from our investments is that on quick commerce we have an investment called go zero. It's a local zero sugar ice cream. On quick commerce more than

ice cream. On quick commerce more than 10% of all ice cream sold local zero sugar and so it's not just optics it's taking forward a trend that customers

are actually embracing right and so it's a great move. I welcome such a move and I hope that more and more places make us more conscious as consumers by putting the information out there.

>> But Arjun Arjun, you're saying you use them yourself. You're an entrepreneur.

them yourself. You're an entrepreneur.

You are backing this idea. You're saying

that this is something that you look for as well when it comes to healthier food options, you're looking for calorie counts, etc. And it doesn't matter whether you're uh kind of booking your meal online or you're going to sit at a

restaurant and book it. You like to have that information. How reliable is that

that information. How reliable is that information? Where is the accountability

information? Where is the accountability of this getting cross-cheed is what the ladies on this panel are asking.

>> Yeah, I think it's a very important point they bring up because if you do dupe per consumer or you put a wrong calorie count and I've heard of cases where this has happened before, it can

lead a consumer down a very wrong path.

I think the regulator in this case would be FSSAI. I think it is a large

be FSSAI. I think it is a large responsibility. It's a tough thing to do

responsibility. It's a tough thing to do because there are hundreds of thousands of operators of QSR FMPG food products.

There has to be a way to regulate this because consumers are looking at that as trusting responsibility. But I will not

trusting responsibility. But I will not take the negative in this. I think the step towards people reading towards people seeing and and towards doing these things is important. There will be bad actors, there will be negative

actors as much check and balance as you put in will see these things happen. But

I am for such a move because it makes our country more conscious the way maybe look at food.

>> You're saying this is beyond optics.

It's something that consumers should celebrate and you're welcoming this move. Capel Gupta, do you agree or do

move. Capel Gupta, do you agree or do you think the government or the FSSAI should set standards for digital health claims that are made by food delivery apps in this case? Do you think industry

self-regulation needs to be there or do you need uh some kind of organization to kind of regulate the claims being made when it comes to a healthier options or anything else connected with the food

that we often get on our apps or in restaurants too?

>> Chief, first of all, let's start from the top. Food delivery apps are a

the top. Food delivery apps are a reality of the India that we live in.

People want to eat and people have in people have dispensable income and they want to spend money on food. So let's

let's be very clear first of all food delivery apps are the reality of the world that we live in. Now the question is there is a start that is being done which says we will provide more

information to the consumer about the food that they are taking in. In some

cases that information will be right. In

some cases that information will probably be a little bit you know muzzled but it's a great start. It at

least starts to get people to think about it. You see in a lot of ways the

about it. You see in a lot of ways the the you know the the paradigm that we live in now most people will take that information plug it in Google plug it in uh you know chat GPT plug it in whatever

AI that they use and they will actually crossverify that.

>> So the problem is the problem is and Dr. Shikha is pointing towards this if this feature could have unintended consequences like people over relying on

these health scores ignoring traditional Indian dietary wisdom as well. Are we

going in that direction? Kapil Gupta

>> um I don't think that's a real danger to worry about right now. If we are not able to kind of build on build two layers on top of this over the next couple of years then I would agree with

Dr. Shika that it's a real danger for right now. I think it's a step it's a

right now. I think it's a step it's a good step in the right direction. Beyond

this there should be more controls that should come from the government. Right?

>> Beyond this there should be a lot more independent AI. I mean it's a I would

independent AI. I mean it's a I would put it as an entrepreneurial opportunity for people to actually create some kind of a layer on top of Zamato that says don't trust what Zumato is saying. come

here and recheck that and then kind of make your own health decisions also. I

think the question is it is in a lot of ways it is going to get more and more people educated, informed and worrying about the food that they put in their mouth.

>> Right. So you think that this is going to create more questions. It is going to lead to people investigating what they're eating is the right thing to eat or not ask the right questions. So it's

not just necessarily something that they need to go by but at least it starts that process. Is that what you're saying

that process. Is that what you're saying Kapil Gupta?

>> Abs. Absolutely. And I'm not taking away the concern that Dr. Shikha is sharing.

I'm just saying this is a step in the right direction. Whether we take the

right direction. Whether we take the right to next steps or not is the question.

>> But what about data privacy concerns?

Dr. Shikha Sharma. How should Zumato address those? After all, you know,

address those? After all, you know, health data is sensitive and consumers may be wary of sharing too much information out there as well because that is going to be open game. The

moment you're making those choices, you are sharing that kind of data.

>> I think that's a fantastic question.

Absolutely fantastic question. Today, if

you are a health insurance person, you're governed by so many rules about data privacy and security. If you're a hospital, you have tons of rules which apply to you because of data privacy and

security because health is a very very significant matter and and exactly that what you have pointed out that a food delivery app can very comfortably

collect all this health data and bypass all the regulatory systems because they are not governed by it. So if a a food delivery app is claiming that yes this is healthy like I said it's

oversimplification of what is considered healthy b data security is a big problem and I I I want to point to a very big problem which uh has happened in US over

the last many years. So when obesity was there in US in many many years back it was only 24%. The moment the health revolution started the so-called health revolution which was low calorie with

low calorie you had diet drinks coming in zero cal with low calorie and sugar alternatives you had chemical sugar alternatives coming in so today in

America also the obesity or is at 60 plus%. So what I'm saying is it has not

plus%. So what I'm saying is it has not helped the common citizen at all. In

fact, it has only helped the industry by uh deluding the patients, deluding the common cous consumer to go and buy those products which are chemical, which are preservatives, which have artificial

colors. Yes. And they

colors. Yes. And they

>> so is it creating a delusion Arjun Vya and that is the risk that we are talking about? Yes. data privacy but at the end

about? Yes. data privacy but at the end of the day you don't want to compromise anything to do with health at this stage when you're talking about healthy food some people are even basically asking

and we've done surveys as well on Instagram and uh on uh Twitter and we've asked people to respond a majority of them are saying will this even work because at the end of the day can you

even trust that kind of information that is coming your way is anything that you order online or at a restaurant even healthy enough because yes you can have a quinoa cutlet but at the end of the

day if you're going to cook it in refined oil you're not going to have a very healthy uh dish in front of you.

What do you say to all that Dr. Shikh Sharma is pointing out Arjuna?

>> So Vikram I think uh look I I will go back to what couple said and and what couple said is very important which is this is a reality whether you like it or not we are consuming a lot on these apps

and they have become a way of life. Our

details are registered with them. With

one click of a button, you can order food. And from 10 years ago today,

food. And from 10 years ago today, there's been an exponential increase in the amount of food being consumed on these apps and the convenience that exists. Right? So to say that this

exists. Right? So to say that this health data will make us more unhealthy or less unhealthy, I don't think is the case. The other thing about the data

case. The other thing about the data itself, right? See, Vikram, the reality

itself, right? See, Vikram, the reality is that millions of Indians on a daily basis are consuming on tomato or swiggi.

Whether they put the healthy tab or not on that platform, Zomato still has access to this data, right? And so

whether they call it healthy to us or not, they still know how India is eating. I think on the illusion, right?

eating. I think on the illusion, right?

I think there is data being provided to you as a customer. But I will not go so far to say that the Indian customer is completely uneducated or will believe

everything they say. My friend Raant of who runs an amazing platform called food farmer has got the largest FMCG companies in India through just content

to change what they have been giving us for so many years which is food full of ingredients that are not good for us right and so I feel like as customers we

are smarter and it's our job to see what we see but also go and do that limited research in the world of completely democratizing. So again it's coming back

democratizing. So again it's coming back to buyers beware. Kapil Gupta what's your sense uh you know if this entire thing takes off I'm just wondering how restaurants are going to deal with it as

well because look at this point in time we're coming in where all kind of costs are going up. Input costs in every respect. All the ingredient costs are

respect. All the ingredient costs are going up. People are finding ordering

going up. People are finding ordering food from outside very expensive. Can

this nudge restaurants into altering recipes for better scores at one level?

But that also means that cost could rise.

>> Uh see uh there is an economics behind this. Uh restaurants right now I mean in

this. Uh restaurants right now I mean in my view restaurants right now are overcharging the consumers by you know I don't know how many what percent. Um I

think in a lot of ways this doesn't necessarily simply increases the cost of uh cost from a restaurant perspective. I

think it gives the right incentive for the right kind of restaurant to put this information out and actually make a lot more money. If you actually look at it,

more money. If you actually look at it, there are several restaurants right now that promote themselves as purely health food, >> right?

>> And they charge at 2x of what a normal restaurant.

>> That is true.

>> And people go there. I mean people care about it and people go there. I think

see there is no the the problem in a lot of such debates is we get into thinking there is one India. We do not live in one India. We live in an India which has

one India. We live in an India which has developed people. We live in an India

developed people. We live in an India which has you know empowered people but today an app I'm talking about accessibility as well because this is about Zumato and an app and its offering on the health score.

>> Does an app rating have the power to change behavior more effectively than family culture or even doctors?

Kapil >> first of all there are a billion plus internet users in India. So let's not worry about accessibility. I think

that's a know that's a good play that we used to do 10 years back.

>> Okay. Uh secondly, I don't think it's a question of either or. I don't think we are talking about ancient wisdom versus what the family what your grandmother says versus what an app says. I think

it's a combination. Different users will make different choices. All that we need to do as entrepreneurs, as activists, as revolutionaries, as you know conscious

people is to ensure the user has information available. how they use it,

information available. how they use it, what they do with it and you know the decision that they make is actually dependent upon the decision. If somebody

makes the bad choice of having unhealthy food like I mean I I for one am somebody that does not really bother much about health of the of the food I'm taking in I just eat it. I mean uh it's a you know

disclaimer from my side but you know people make their own >> and that's the point that Shrea was saying that you know regardless of any score that you put out healthy score eventually people are just going to do

what they are used to doing so this doesn't really help it does make the problem a little more complex and that's what we're trying to discuss but this healthy mode of zumato of course it's

only live in gurugram >> right so Vikram my office is in dy >> right >> unless I eat you know pulura or good kebabs from karims or you know good samosa from dyan. I mean my day doesn't

get completed.

>> There you go. So it doesn't make a difference what zomato's healthy score is.

>> I don't even order >> right. All right I'm running out of time

>> right. All right I'm running out of time and my producers are saying I need to close but this plan that we see sorry what are you saying?

>> I I won't agree with that vam. I think

this >> you won't agree. Yes.

>> Discourse about just one point I wanted to make.

>> Sorry if you can do it very quickly. I

need to close the show >> very quickly. I think all of this is really enabling the customer, but there's still a gap. We are not empowering the customer to mindful choice.

>> Fair enough. Fair enough. But we'll have to carry on this debate. Of course, what started as an industry built purely on speed and convenience is now getting reshaped by this collective demand for transparency, for balance, better

choices as well. And they are trying to be enablers on that journey. The food

delivery game of course no longer just about what reaches your plate but how responsibility how responsibly it gets there as well. This debate is going to carry on but my thanks to Dr. Shikhash

Sharma Vya Kapil Gupta Shri Shivangi thank you for joining us and our viewers too for making the time for being with us on the big question here on NDTV Prophet. I'm Vicramosa. Good evening.

Prophet. I'm Vicramosa. Good evening.